TheRedArchive

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In the most recent Random RP Thoughts post /u/PhantomDream09 had an interesting comment about infidelity:

I'd like to know how others specifically define cheating in their own relationships, and what rules (if any) they have in place to make sure problems don't crop up. This would expand into a broader discussion of why it's important to not tolerate cheating at all when it comes to LTRs. I do believe there is a valid argument to be made that marriage can survive infidelity, whereas it's foolish to stick around if it's just an LTR. I think there are some people that would argue that LTRs can survive infidelity - and I agree that it is possible....but ultimately not worth the effort in any way.

Really the only thing that makes an LTR valid is the presence of absolute fidelity. You don't have a ring, or legal bond that ties you together - it is only a verbal contract. The minute that contract is violated, the legitimacy of the relationship is dissolved. Essentially my argument is that LTRs live and die on trust, whereas marriages (due to the added ropes of obligation, duty, and penalties upon separation) are in a better position to withstand the blows of infidelity (and rebuild) the relationship. Spouses can't just walk out the door and never return, an LTR can.

I do realize there are things like common law marriage as well - but I that's still not as binding as an actual marriage. People that marry go through a deliberate public ritual and they are recognized as family by the law. Even if it's just a courthouse wedding. It's also important to clarify that yes, lots of people get married impulsively, with no idea what they are doing, and marriages can be annulled. Just as couples that don't marry can still have relationships that last their entire lifetime. LTRs can bounce back from infidelity - the smarter option however would be to move on in the vast majority of cases.

I'd love to get everyone's thoughts on the subject of cheating. How do you define it? When do you think it is justified or at least forgivable? Do you consider escorts cheating? What about excessive porn use or "emotional" affairs?

Let's discuss!


[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Emotional relationships with other women and physically arousing touch/flirting of any sort is cheating in my marriage. For either of us.

Porn, looking at other women, or commenting about other women is NOT cheating. Neither of us are insecure about our relationship so those things don't create jealousy.

It's never justifiable but it is most certainly forgivable in my marriage because we made a commitment to stay to together no matter what, even if it means periods of anger or even hate.

Even if I was not married to my husband but we were "ltr", I would feel the same.

[–]Camille11325[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Agreed! There are definitely a lot of women who consider merely looking at another woman to be out of bounds and I feel like that's really hard to control and will only lead to him resenting you. Attractive women exist and we can't do anything about it. I actually find that talking with M about women we both find attractive in the area helps me not feel super territorial or threatened.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes to this! I think being able to joke about it makes it more of a fun thing than anything that invokes jealousy. Some of that probably comes with years of being together and feeling secure, but I'm amazed by other couples who get in a snit if their SO thinks another person is attractive. Like, if your LTR is that fragile there's another problem brewing.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

my response to /u/PhantomDream09 in that thread:

Interesting. I always thought that the couple should decide what is breaking the rules of commitment within the boundaries of the commitment they made to each other. So I don't think there's any hard and fast definition of what cheating is. That said, I personally think cheating is however a man improperly allocates his resources of value to YOU to another person. So some women think that cheating is when a man sleeps with another woman -- cuz to her that's a valuable resource. To another woman, if a man have a lovechild (out of sight, out of mind) but then pays the mother of that said lovechild funds to take care of it (financial resource) now he's totally out of pocket and wrong. I know some women who think quality time is the most important resource, so they think cheating is having a female friend and spending time with her. I think cheating can take many forms because commitment can take on many forms. STRs, LTRs, marriage, co-parenting are all forms of commitment. They just have very different definitions and manifestations of commitment. I think it's critical that throughout any relationship, folks keep lines of communication open and ensure that they aren't out of step with the expectations of commitment for their partner.

[–]Camille11325[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

cheating is however a man improperly allocates his resources of value to YOU to another person.

LOVE!

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids8 points9 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

My husband and I both define cheating Biblically: But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28

The inverse is obviously true for me as well. Porn is infidelity, intentionally looking at the other sex with desire is infidelity, and emotional connections are infidelity.

[–]Camille11325[S] 3 points4 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

I love that you both use the biblical definition! I was hoping that someone would chime in about porn being infidelity. I personally grew up with the idea that porn was evil and adultery just like many Christians and so it is weird to me to see how normalised it is in the West today. I understand intellectually the arguments in favour of porn and don't view it as pure evil anymore but I can't get rid of all of my upbringing.

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids5 points6 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

To me it's very strange that many on this thread and elsewhere think that looking at attractive members of the opposite sex is okay, as if where or how or through whom arousal comes isn't important at all.

As to porn, if you wouldn't watch people have sex out in the open live, why would you watch it filmed? It's such a massive contributor to the divorce rate.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Can you provide some source or study that supports the idea that porn is a "massive" contributor to the divorce rate? I'm interested to read that.

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids3 points4 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Sure.

Another discussion of the same study, but with graphs and a bit more discussion.

The study found that starting porn use doubled the likelihood of divorce for men and tripled it for women. This is consistent with the prevailing ideas that men in particular are more visual creatures and "can't help themselves." (I'm not saying this is the RPWi outlook, but speaking broadly.) It is also consistent with the idea that men would find physical promiscuity more damaging than emotional, with the reverse being true for women. (Thus, women are simultaneously more likely to "accept" their husbands porn use, and it's more damaging if they themselves use it.)

The study also found that among the participants, religious beliefs helped mitigate the damaging effects of porn. Interestingly, beginning porn usage in a happy marriage was much much more damaging (quadrupled the risk of divorce) than starting the usage in an already unhappy marriage.

Among women, ceasing porn use rapidly decreased the risk of divorce. For men, they could not find a large enough sample size to find a link, apparently because there's not enough men with the spine to stop using it.

[–]TempestTcup 6 points6 points [recovered] | Copy Link

For men, they could not find a large enough sample size to find a link, apparently because there's not enough men with the spine to stop using it.

Ah, shaming men for not being your puritanical type. Why do they "not have a spine"? Perhaps they enjoy porn and don't see the need to adhere to your personal preferences.

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

  1. It's not great for divorce rate, as this study shows.

  2. Unless you'd watch folks having sex out in the park, viewing porn is disingenuous and dishonest.

  3. Porn is an addictive behavior that causes dopamine exhaustion and changes in neurochemistry.

  4. It removes imtimacy from sex, for both the actors and the viewer.

  5. It creates unrealistic expectations about sex, genital appearance, and the interplay of sex and relationships.

  6. It's selling sex for profit, which is essentially prostitution. (Not that many folks pay for their porn these days, which makes them thieves as well.)

  7. It perpetuates a culture where sex is separated from marriage or long term stable relationships, which is exactly where RPWi says that sex should happen.

  8. It's a fundamentally selfish act, reducing the actors to objects by which to achieve sexual gratification.

Shall I go on? I haven't even gotten to religious reasons yet.

[–]TempestTcup 5 points5 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Did you even read my reply?

You are shaming men for being men.

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

No, I am shaming men for refusing to exercise self-mastery over base desires.

EDIT: if porn is part of "being a man" you are equally shaming men who don't. Porn = men being men. No porn = men being not men?

Also, some actions deserve shame.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Hi there /u/rpw111528, I think there are several different things going on here.

  1. There is your personal opinion about cheating, that is informed (and shaped by) your religious beliefs. You believe that watching porn counts as cheating.

  2. There's the 'don't control men' angle that both you and /u/tempesttcup are addressing in different ways. You are saying that men are confined to a box if they are categorized as wholesale 'porn viewers' (and by extension that it's somehow unmasculine for a man to not watch porn). Tempy (and /u/_wingnut_ ) on the other hand are saying that it's 'controlling' to tell men that they are bad/spineless if they do watch porn. If a single woman extends this opinion and uses it as a way to try and stop a man from watching porn after they are already in a relationship or married - then that is controlling behavior. This community warns women to avoid controlling men. However, I think it's important to recognize that you promote the anti-porn position as a deal-breaker and therefore part of the vetting process. By doing so you aren't telling women to change how men behave, you're simply advocating that they remove those men all together from their dating pool if it's important to them.

  3. There's the general idea of dating and finding a 'good man.' The definition and specific qualities of what makes a man good, desirable, and trustworthy are going to vary a lot from woman to woman depending on her personal flaws, priorities (musts, wants), and deal-breakers.

I think it makes a lot of sense that you specifically categorize men that view porn etc as spineless, given your faith. I think it's clear that you don't consider an 'anti-porn' stance to be 'anti-male.' You are married after all, and it's reasonable to assume that your H shares these same values.

At the same time, Tempy is saying that as a community, this sub does not encourage women to control or dictate a man's behaviors and preferences. It's not that any of your comments said "women need to make men stop watching porn" - more that your strong opinions about porn can send a specific message that a man cannot be good/admirable/worthwhile if he watches porn.

While it may be true that your personal beliefs/opinions are "a man that watches porn is spineless" that's not the same as a general consensus on this sub that says "men that watch porn should be avoided."

Your opinion is neither right nor wrong - but in this community, that focuses specifically on dating and helping women, it is important to be clear about certain things. Which is why I'm taking the time to expand on the topics being discussed and explain them as clearly as I can.

Women can absolutely make 'porn viewing' a deal-breaker, but if a non-religious woman has this criteria, she is severely narrowing the pool of men that she can date. You mention that there are a lot of men on the 'no-fap' sub for example. I'm not familiar with that sub, or the reasons that the men their engage in that behavior (is it a moral drive to make a permanent change, or a temporary challenge? for example). As long as a woman understands that her deal-breakers can greatly influence the pool of men she can date, then that's totally fine. A non-religious woman that has the considers porn usage a deal-breaker will be putting a considerable handicap on her dating options.

Having a deal-breaker and incorporating that deal-breaker into the vetting process is exactly the type of approach this community advocates for and supports. Telling a man to change his behaviors/conduct after a relationship/marriage has been formed is not. You are speaking to this issue on a personal/moral level (which is fine) while Tempy and WingN are approaching this as Mods, with other users and readers in mind.

You are not wrong for having your opinion, just as Tempy and WingN are not wrong for pointing out that this view/opinion (if held by a non-religious woman) can be very detrimental, or even possibly used to justify controlling behavior.

As an aside, I do agree with you that certain behaviors should be shamed, even if I do not agree with you that porn viewing should be one of them. But it's a separate topic that I find very interesting. :0)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Among women, ceasing porn use rapidly decreased the risk of divorce. For men, they could not find a large enough sample size to find a link, apparently because there's not enough men with the spine to stop using it.

You had my attention until the missing spine part. Also, this is a self-reporting "study" and not of much value other than pointing to what we already know about men and sex. Yeah, big surprise - religious women are against porn.

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

If religious women were against porn, you would expect to see a stronger correlation between porn use and breaking the relationship. Instead, you see that religious women are less likely to divorce over porn than non-religious women.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

so you are saying now that religious women aren't against porn?

If religious women were against porn,

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm saying that the study shows that women with strong religious beliefs tend to hold the indissolubility of marriage to a higher and more stringent standard than did their non-religious counterparts. I admit my earlier comment was not worded correctly. Of course religious women tend to be against the use of porn.

What I meant was: if two women who are otherwise equivalent except for one is religious and one isn't, and both of their husbands started porn, the religious woman is more likely to stay, not because she approves of pornography, but because she disagrees more with divorce.

My apologies for my poorly worded comment. I shouldn't Reddit when sleepy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That makes sense, thanks for explaining. I agree with that too.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Try finding a non religious MSN under 50 who doesn't watch copious porn. Most women don't have a choice

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'll assume that MSN is phone-auto-correct for man, haha!

We do have a choice. It's just a matter of which one is a dealbreaker, I suppose. There's plenty of non-religious gents over at nofap. It's just about where you place porn usage on your list of traits and what you're willing to give up to find someone who doesn't.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

this would condemn all nonreligious women to spinsterhood. i have no problem with you doing whatever you believe in but under no circumstances d i advise RPWi looking for mates to be completely abnormal and out of step with their culture. our entire purpose is to cast a wide net, not be niche products and to be open to many men so as to increase our marriage potential. makign the use of pf porn a dealbreaker will restrict a non religious womans pool worse than beign a single mom with blue hair, facial piercings and tattoos

[–]rpw111528married 5yrs | ENFJ | LLL | 2 kids3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Only if you're not willing to date religious men.

And I was under the impression, but correct me if I'm wrong, that increasing our SMV and RMV is precisely what allows a RPWi to be more discerning. Are you advising that porn use be something that a woman "puts up with"? Why?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Porn has nothing to do with rmv or smv.

Porn is an individual choice. Not a rp one. You as an individual identify what you can and cannot deal with and move forward from there. If you choose not to be with men who view porn then that is your right. But applying rp concepts to that you are severely limiting your dating pool which would limit your potential to find a mate. You just have to be aware of that. That itself is rp.

[–]sunfloweriesLate 20s / Engaged / 3 Years6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In my relationship, emotional and physical intimacy with another man or woman would be considered cheating. Purchasing sex acts (strippers, escorts, cam girls, etc) is also considered cheating.

They are hard lines that, to me, cannot be crossed without causing irreparable damage to the foundation of our commitment to each other. I won't be with someone who doesn't respect me, and I wouldn't want him to be with someone who didn't respect him.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ooh I didn't even think about strippers or cam girls! Your boundaries make total sense and it's great that you're sticking by them. Personally I'm okay with strippers in the context of bachelor parties or vegas or casinos or something but regularly going (solo or with friends) is weird to me. I know that some men really enjoy that though so this isn't really against them, it just would be a deal breaker for me.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Physical intimacy with another person.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

So if your SO had an emotional affair that would be ok? I'm just asking not judging. :D

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I guess emotional affair is harder me to define - No, it wouldn't be okay but I'm not sure if I would equate it to cheating.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Very interesting! For some reason I'm more bothered by the thought of an emotional affair (whether its just feelings or physical + emotional) than a strictly physical case of infidelity. I think it ties into what /u/Sunhappy_DC is saying about resource allocation. Do you think what she says in her comment applies to how you rank the different ways a man can be unfaithful/break his commitment?

[–]nouvelle_rouge4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Completely agree.

Imagine these two scenarios:

  1. Your boyfriend gets plastered on strange drugs in vegas and drunkely hooks up with a stripper.

  2. Your boyfriend takes a girl out on a very romantic date who he has been talking to the past month or so. He pulls out all of the stops, they kiss and hold hands on the date, but don't have sex.

Situation 2 is automatic dealbreaker and dumping grounds. Situation 1 I could probably forgive, even in an LTR.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with what she is saying. And I defiantly see where she is coming from.

When I met R he was in a platonic friendship with his first HS girlfriend. She hasn't ever really left his life. So from day one I knew she existed and I accepted it earlier. So I guess in my situation there has always been a girl friend that my guy has to lean on when he needs a sounding board. I've always shared that with her. If she showed up like 6months into us dating I would view it very differently. But I've always shared him with her in a small way. I just reserve his body. 😊😊😊

[–]cxj1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

My sister dumped her bf over an emotional affair. Blew my mind it she did because he was alpha af and she put up with way more than she should have from him and it was shocking to me that was the dealbreaker. Even more shocking was she said she could have forgiven a drunken hookup but there was no coming back from Facebook messages with someone from another country lolol.

[–]Camille11325[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hahaha that ties in with what /u/Sunhappy_DC was saying about resources, did you read her comment? I feel like for a lot of women the emotional aspect of the relationship is the most important when they're with an alpha man because obtaining this level of commitment is more challenging and therefore more worth it. Not everyone gets to date or marry the alpha but sleeping with him is far easier. If he starts giving his emotions, focus, interest, etc. to other women, what does the current girl have that separates her from the others?

[–]cxj1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah good points.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I kinda of get where she was coming from, cheating is something i've worried about a lot and I think a drunken hookup would make me really really angry and sad but an emotional affair would be worse because it was like something must be broken in our marriage. But i would call both cheating.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I like /u/MountainsAndMeadows description the best - that's pretty much exactly how I feel.

I would expand to add that other women flirting with him and him going along with it for either shits and giggles or a free drink is okay - B frequently likes to mess with girls like this, and I find it hilarious. I've shown up to a bar at his request where a girl was leaning in and staring at him and had just bought him a drink - he happily introduced me as his fiance and she scuttled off quick - we laughed HARD.

We're still not married, but I do think that your definition of cheating should be the same for an LTR and marriage. The benefit is that if it happens in an LTR, you can cut and run. I've not yet considered how I would handle it in a marriage.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've shown up to a bar at his request where a girl was leaning in and staring at him and had just bought him a drink - he happily introduced me as his fiance and she scuttled off quick - we laughed HARD.

Hahaha that is awesome!

M and I are fine with each other flirting with a purpose, its very useful for getting discounts and preferential treatment. Also it can be funny as you and B clearly know :) This is something we're always upfront about though, and we share a laugh together when we trade these sorts of stories.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely fun to see how far we can push it - the shenanigans we have gotten ourselves into have given us stories for years, hahaha. There's no shame in it as long as you're honest and trust each other!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I think it varies couple to couple. Some would say kissing isn't cheating. Some would say that sleeping with other people isn't cheating.

For myself though, when there is any sort of physical or emotional attachment that is romantic in any way, that falls outside of what I'm comfortable with in a relationship. That doesn't mean that I see romantic feelings in every interaction with the other sex. That would be a wasted exercise. I know my man can leave. I know my man can get another woman. I don't waste time on worrying about it. However, if all of a sudden I wasn't doing my job and he was getting it from somewhere else, I also wouldn't fault him. Now, if I am doing my job, and he still seeks out more, then I just realize I am not enough for him and move on. Jealousy is so stupid.

Escorts are cheating. I am willing to provide all he needs and so I should be his only source. Porn however is something that I wouldn't hold against him though. The videos provide something that I can't or won't and I'm not mad at that.

This comment is a jumblefuckmess lol. Hope I was clear enough though.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You were totally clear! I've seen people say the exact opposite - that if they were doing the best they could and he still cheated then they would understand as it is male nature and it's out of their hands. But you would actually leave someone, regardless of kids, length of the relationship, etc? Obviously there is no one right answer here I just find everyone's approach to this subject so interesting because we all have such different perspectives.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

But you would actually leave someone, regardless of kids, length of the relationship, etc?

Yes. I am not in a poly relationship. I am in a monogamous relationship and the person I am with is subject to those terms. I mean we talk about them and discuss them at the beginning of the relationship so it isn't like he doesn't know the expectations as well as I do. I even set stricter expectations than what most men would accommodate (eg male friends). If there were something that I couldn't fulfill in someone's life I would vet them out from the start. But I highly doubt that a) there is much I wouldn't do that is above and beyond relationship requirements and b) most men would stray with at given the minimal effort from a woman. So personally, knowing that I go above and beyond and would pretty much do what I do for my man, yeah if he strayed Peace out yo cause you want something that I expressly will not and cannot do which is probably illegal and depraved.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

This makes so much sense!

If there were something that I couldn't fulfill in someone's life I would vet them out from the start.

Yep this is so key and definitely a big way to reduce the likelihood of cheating happening in the first place.

Peace out yo cause you want something that I expressly will not and cannot do which is probably illegal and depraved.

Hahaha I can always feel your voice through your comments :)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Just so you know, my SO says I sound like Rosie Perez. So put that in your head too.

[–]_TheFantasticMrsFox_28, engaged, together 7 years2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh my gosh now whenever I read your comments it will be with her voice! Especially when you're being firm/ real with somebody 😂

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This be me when I'm giving my angry advice.

[–]_TheFantasticMrsFox_28, engaged, together 7 years1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lolllll my dog is so upset because I "Ha"-d so suddenly he got scared and jumped off my lap.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also I wanna make clear that if for whatever reason if I became incapacitated and couldn't provide all my man needed I def wouldn't fault him for straying. But id have to be like quadriplegic or something fucked up like that.

[–]StingrayVC4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Any sexual activity and/or emotional affair, most especially as described here. Quite frankly, this would hurt far more than a sexual fling. Like u/Camille11325, I'd rather not know. However, I don't believe in divorce and would not leave over an affair. But it would change our relationship forever.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed completely! I have a half formed thought right now about transparency vs ignorance and one's view on divorce. Most women today seem to want to know every tiny detail, men can't even go to a bachelor party without having to send text updates (I know that's an specific example but I've seen this first hand and it represents a larger trend in a certain segment of America). But these same women are more likely to leave over cheating of any kind, which is totally their right, but if people had a different view of marriage would they still engage in the same behaviours? If you know you're with a man until you die, it makes sense that you wouldn't want to know about things that would dramatically change the way you think about him, or your dynamic.

[–]_TheFantasticMrsFox_28, engaged, together 7 years2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think we both have a pretty clear understanding of the specifics in our relationship. We're not married yet, and a ring is just a representation of our promise of fidelity (as opposed to the public ceremony declaring you're a family mentioned above) and not an Unbreakable Vow. That being said- I don't count porn or flirting (without intent) as cheating. I count emotional affairs as cheating, but I think they're easier to move past than a physical affair(depending on the severity). I.e sexting a girl from work you think you have a connection with is waaaaay worse than having quiet attraction and hanging out. Imaginary me would be sad in this situation, but How would I even know?

Physical cheating counts everything: kissing, cuddling, holding hands, sex, etc is cheating to me- emotion or not. As Cooch Quarantine mentioned- I'm always willing and happy to provide these needs- and if he seeks out more I can't stop that.

Side note: way in the beginning I asked my SO about cheating and is he that type. He laughed and said that one girl friend takes enough time, attention and energy and he'd rather spend the extra time doing his hobbies not sneaking around lol

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My rule, for myself, for cheating is no friendship with a guy if he's not at least equally friends with my SO. Even the most intellectually stimulating friendships need to be foregone because mind is a sexual organ. I respond to guy friends I grew up with if they reach out on social media. Its never a real time conversation and never specific (generic questions like how are you? when are you coming back? how is family? etc). I would not hesitate to show these to my SO if he asked. Other than that, I only talk to guys for business needs unless its family.

This was my initial comment on this issue. I've thought more of how I'd describe cheating for my SO. Emotional > physical > ons > flirtatious interaction. Anything that prolongs in time is automatically more hurtful than a shorter time instance (hours or a night). I agree with u/sunhappy_dc on the giving up of valuable resources. If SO was spending time with a girlfriend and/or spending money on her, I'd be much more hurt. Even if there's attraction, I'd rather he be upfront and let me know. I'm very fluid in terms of morality and maybe I could forgive an affair under marriage and the right circumstances (we are living apart due to external condition, I'm too sick to care for him the way he wants me to, she fulfills a completely different intellectual need for him and there's a sexual draw etc). If there was lying involved, it's a deal breaker. If I have to carry shame and pity for his actions, it's a deal breaker.

I have stricter rules on myself because I have recognized my hypergamy as a threat. My morality is fluid, as mentioned above and I'd rather not hamster inappropriate conduct jeopardizing the one thing I've worked towards for so long.

[–]SuperSlavisWife2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Any physical sexual contact.

With how both of us are, emotional intimacy with anyone else is at 0% probability, so we never worried about it. And playful flirting just seems to be something that happens when he gets flippant, and can even be directed at other men or driven to a point of absurdity, so I'm not threatened by it. As long as he's not having one of his "looking right through people and getting stuff done" days he will be distracted by other women, we both talk to people of the opposite sex as friends and for work, and we both use porn, separately and together. Anything driven by another person is just ridiculous to claim you can control. We have a friend who's very flirty and Jon doesn't care as long as I don't reciprocate. He has coworkers who are into him and I don't care as long as he doesn't take them up on the offer of going for drinks.

That said, even another guy touching my hair or hugging me makes me uncomfortable, as does seeing another woman touching Jon affectionately, however tame the interaction is. Reciprocation in either case would anger either of us. We do our best to avoid any physical contact which could cause sexual tension.

[–]BellaScarletta1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I think there is a difference between 'cheating' and inappropriate behaviour. It's 100% valid to break up with someone for behaving inappropriately, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was cheating.

I would consider any form of physical intimacy hard and fast cheating, and anything emotional as inappropriate...I don't think I would say I was cheated on, though I may end the relationship as a result.

But also I'm not sure cheating is the worst thing that can happen, black and white. Some inappropriate emotional affairs would probably hurt me more than physical infidelity, even though (again) I wouldn't call it cheating.

Now I'm not sure I could forgive either, but if I found out R was carrying on a longer emotional affair online...I think I would be more hurt than if he got drunk with his friends and made out with a random floozy.

It's definitely a big gray area, and I guess the best response (as usual) is open communication.

[–]BellaScarletta1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is off-topic(ish) so decided to add it as a separate comment.

Similarly, my friend and I were just talking a few hours ago about "things you tell your SO vs things you don't" -- not in the sense of keeping secrets, but more what is 'obligatory' vs what is 'neither here nor there'.

The context for our discussion was a random (thirsty? lol) old school friend messaged me to say hello and then mentioned a few too many times he used to have a big crush on me. We don't even live remotely near one another, so don't ask me the motivation (my friend said bored, alone and horny lol). I just skirted the issue and ended the conversation.

She said "are you going to tell R?" (conversationally) and I shrugged and said "Doubtful. If it comes up I guess but it's hardly worth bringing up specifically". She immediately agreed and said she doesn't understand why the actions of other people matter so much in relationships.

I qualified the importance to me on whether it's "mention-worthy" or not is whether I 'participated' or 'spectated'. Getting hit on and shutting it down is clearly a spectator sport.

An example on something I did tell R (participated), was a phone call with an ex (sounds awful lol).

We dated so many years ago when we were virtually kids, it was hardly an adult relationship or anything remotely significant now. The ex (M) is still really close with my brother, and R has actually met him on two occasions and they get along great.

M and I hardly ever talk, because boundaries. We've talked on the phone twice in the half decade since we broke up, and text maybe a few times a year. He called me (the second time we chatted) about a month ago for job hunting advice and we talked for a while, so I definitely told R. He just laughed and said thanks for mentioning it.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Totally agree about the distinction between cheating an inappropriate! I also agree that cheating isn't the worst thing that could happen. One area where we part ways is when it comes to the desire for open communication. For a lot of instances that count as cheating (eg random makeout with a floozy at the bar) I'd rather be blissfully unaware that anything was going on and not have my relationship dynamic changed. I'd also prefer to avoid being embarrassed by news of the infidelity being made public. It seems like more women felt the same way in the past but today our expectations of both our partners and ourselves are different.

[–]BellaScarletta1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Well fwiw I meant open communication insofar as defining cheating in your own relationship, since interpretations can clearly be gray. Best example being "looking at other women" or porn; I saw your comment above and agree fully. That's nonsense IMO and will lead to resentment.

As far as this

I'd rather be blissfully unaware that anything was going on and not have my relationship dynamic changed. I'd also prefer to avoid being embarrassed by news of the infidelity being made public.

I categorically agree with the last part. I would never want anyone to know...one the embarrassment would be endless, and two it removes our ability to resolve it internally and without external meddling. As far as not being told...I'm on the fence. If it was truly a one time thing then I would probably not want to know. But how can anybody know if it was truly a one time thing? If it happened multiple times (and we were married), then I would probably want to be aware. If it happened multiple times (and we weren't married), I would probably end it because that's so many strikes during the vetting stage alone lol.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well fwiw I meant open communication insofar as defining cheating in your own relationship, since interpretations can clearly be gray.

Definitely! Mismatched expectations and lack of boundaries seems to be a common pattern when it comes to a lot of relationship issues not just infidelity.

I agree with the second part of your comment as well, not knowing about a random hookup is different than say a secret, passionate affair with the same woman for years right under your nose. Regardless of the level of infidelity my instinct would be to kill the offending woman so me not knowing is also for her safety hahaha not knowing about it isn't me approving it but it's like the lesser of two evils (her death and/or irreparable damage to the relationship).

[–]BellaScarletta4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

my instinct would be to kill the offending woman

You and me both sister hahaha. Common thing in our house:
R mentions girl that's attracted to him
Me: "If she even thinks about touching you the streets will run red with blood like the rivers of Babylon."
R: "...I can't tell if this is hot or just batshit insane."

I even kill his NPC wives in video games.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I even kill his NPC wives in video games.

Now this is a woman who mate guards :V

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hahaha love it!

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I even kill his NPC wives in video games.

Haha, I customised the main couple faces in fallout to look kinda like us because I didn't want a long game where his wife looked nothing like me!

I didn't realise she dies really soon 🤦

P.S the music in fallout is often really RP, i guess because it's 50s style. Betty Hutton is a new favorite :)

[–]am3liia1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm super late to this! But I just wanted to agree with a lot of the sentiments expressed here. I think emotional affairs and physical affairs are cheating. Porn, noticing an attractive woman, a flirty comment, are not cheating. I would definitely be quicker to forgive/get over a drunken one night stand or a visit with an escort over my man falling in love, sharing deep thoughts, etc, with another woman. To me, the emotional connection between us is more intimate. I would be insecure forever if he found that connection with someone else and I don't think our relationship could survive that!

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cheating = sexual activity with anyone outside our relationship.

I have trouble even picturing an "emotional affair" that's just a nebulous state of inappropriate behavior in my mind. But it's not actually on the same level as having sex with someone else.

Actual cheating is an automatic dealbreaker, I'd walk away and never look back. An "emotional affair" is maybe a dealbreaker, but if he never actually slept with her it doesn't feel like that big of a deal to me, just cut it off and snap back to reality and it'd be fine.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you that emotional affairs aren't on the same level. If I were to describe one I'd say: long phone calls/texts/chats, hanging out in person often, sharing secrets, romantic feelings shared between the two of them, confiding what you don't like about your SO and relationship to them, physical interaction such as hugging, hand holding, laying your head on them, sitting on laps, kissing on the cheek or forehead, etc. I can easily see how this sort of thing could hurt more than a random, drunk one night stand. But it still doesn't change the fact that no actual sexual activity happened.

It's great that you know your boundaries and are willing to maintain them without hesitation. Many women can't say the same thing and it leads to so much drama!

[–]darla100 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Question for you ladies: You are aware that cheating is not considered amoral in RP? So what's the point of the question? Cheating is ok, so why worry? Don't ask, don't tell, that's the RP mantra (but only for men. women cheating = automatic divorce).

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Hi there /u/darla10 this sub deals specifically with the female side of RP ideas. This means that boundaries, & cheating are absolutely important & essential. Male RP approaches do not apply here. User's aren't trying to date plate spinners, or men that do not value exclusive LTRs & marriage. The women here are either already with good men that want exclusivity, or they are searching for a good man that is interested in exclusivity/marriage/family.

RP for men is not identical for RP for women. Men & women are different, and have different priorities.

I'm going to quote a post I wrote 2+ years ago that goes into this exact issue.

Here is the original comment that got my attention and below is my response.


RPW doesn't really present any concept of feminine life outside of finding a "captain" and becoming a wife.

The focus of the sub is self improvement, but specifically on improvement that will make us more attractive, appealing, and capable of finding a good man. TRP focuses on many different things (different dating strategies, MGTOW, and overall self-improvement in every area of their life). It's not that we say "women cannot pursue their goals and things that they love" - only that we focus on things that will be more likely to make us appealing to men - and that's an important distinction.

[removed to save space]

The RPW sub doesn't say "you have to be a wife/gf and nothing else" - but we only focus on behavioral patterns as they relate to successfully (and positively) interacting with the intention of meeting/catching the attention of a good man. From a RP standpoint - men don't really care what a woman does for a living. Now, does that mean it's impossible for men to be interested in a woman's work? No. Does it mean a woman should never talk about her job - especially if she's passionate about it? No. That said, there is a tendency for women to emphasize the wrong things when they are getting to know a gentleman.

Most ladies that a gentleman goes on a date with will most likely mention either their schooling or job. Some of those women don't know when to stop talking about such things, or they go into a date thinking "I have this awesome degree" or "My job is spectacular" (all of which may very well be true). The problem is that the fancy degree and the wonderful job isn't going to impress, or make them more attractive to a good man, as much as they (the woman) thinks it will. From a RP perspective, men are used to meeting women that study and work - it's nothing special. Being able to function as an adult, and supporting yourself is nothing to write home about. Men don't respond to a woman's earning power or educational accomplishments the same way that women respond to a man's earning power and educational accomplishments. From the RP perspective, being feminine in both personality and behavior will make a RPW far more attractive than relying on education and work to sell her value.

...users already have hobbies, school, work - areas of their life that allow them to lead a busy, varied, and fulfilling existence. I firmly believe that people need to be content, happy, and self-sufficient before they start looking to date. Rock-climbing and scuba-diving are fantastic hobbies, but they don't directly relate to the RPW sub (which focuses specifically on the female mating strategy according to RP ideas/concepts/etc). RPW isn't about memorizing a 50 point step by step guide on how to navigate every situation - it's more of a compass that allows you to navigate through life while being mindful of certain things.

The way they characterize "complementary" is less like the that of an equal partnership and more like that of a Bike (man) and Training Wheels (women).

We talk a lot about the Captain/First Mate dynamic, but not all the ladies there utilize that method. There's a common assumption that every Red Pill woman wants to find, date (and possibly marry) a Red Pill man - which isn't the case at all. Red Pill women want to find a good man, and the chances of meeting a Red Pill Man out in the world is slim. More to the point - not all RP Men are good matches for an LTR (for various reasons). Some of the gentlemen are only interested in spinning plates, or they want a relationship where the woman is exclusive to him while he has the freedom to date other women. Those are both perfectly fine strategies for the RP gentlemen to pursue - but no Red Pill Woman in her right mind would willingly pursue that kind of arrangement. We advocate for exclusive relationships. Many of the ladies on the RPW sub are with men that have no idea that “Red Pill” is even a thing besides two random words thrown together. Being a good man doesn’t require that man to know anything about RP, many of the men that the ladies are attracted/married to/or dating do have traditionally masculine traits, but not all of them. In many ways “good” is subjective, and there’s a lot that goes into shaping chemistry between two people and how their personalities will work together within a relationship.

The Captain/First Mate dynamic could be an entire thread on its own, and I’ve seen this model implemented in numerous different ways. There are some expressions of this model that would severely compromise the stability and happiness of my own relationship, yet those variations are perfect for other couples. Part of how the Captain/First Mate dynamic is implemented has a lot to do with the personalities at play. I know that the way my SO and I have created the C/FM structure may not work well for everyone (for various reasons), but it’s still the one I keep in mind first and foremost when I talk about this (and yes, that’s a solipsistic view on my part haha). So keep that in mind as I try to explain things.

A good Captain/Leader takes responsibility for a lot of things. He is the first and last line of defense in many ways, he shoulders responsibility for his SO’s happiness, comfort, and security. He prioritizes her needs because she prioritizes his needs and by being a good First Mate – triggers his desire to be a good leader. A good leader delegates tasks, understands his SO’s strengths and abilities. A good Captain is pro-active – and so is a good First Mate. We have clearly defined the boundaries of our relationship, we are both mindful of how we interact with each other, we address issues before they become problems. There is a hierarchy within our relationship, but that doesn’t mean he holds all the power and I have none.

My SO makes decisions that benefit our relationship, not because he wants something. That’s a very central aspect to my ideal of a good leader. A good First Mate does the same thing because the individual is secondary to the health/stability of the relationship. Both the Captain and The First Mate work to protect the relationship in various ways. I protect my SO’s reputation and show that I respect him by how I interact with him in public, speak about him, as well as how I treat him when we are alone. When something comes up, I freely provide my opinions and insights – my SO values my input, especially in areas where I have more experience and knowledge.

That’s another misconception about this dynamic – many people assume that the Captain is a tyrant, with final say in all things, and is all knowing….I’m not sure where that misunderstanding comes from but it’s wrong. A good First Mate knows the difference between small issues and big problems. I often handle things that simply aren’t worth bothering my SO with (and he does the same). I have insights and perspectives that help resolve issues, and we are always working together towards a goal. Honestly, we’ve never had a fight or an argument. We don’t squabble, bicker, or have disagreements. If and/or when there’s an issue, it gets brought up, discussed and addressed. Once something has been resolved – that’s the end of it and there are no lingering negative feelings.

I’ve mentioned this before, but friends and family (people that know me well) would never say “clearly this relationship is unbalanced/unfair." If anything, we probably look as though we implement a completely egalitarian and equal relationship because of how well we treat each other and how simple everything looks. That said, our relationship is based not on equality, but on mutual satisfaction and a clear division of duties/roles.

I'm open to hearing what RPW think women CAN do in their lives that have them live up to their potential BESIDES being a wife.

... but when we're on the RPW sub, our focus is very specific. The RPW sub is about self-improvement (becoming a better woman) & attracting a good man. If the woman in question doesn't already have a well-rounded life in terms of school, work, friends, and hobbies - then she certainly isn't in a good place to date and look for a good man. I believe that ever woman on the RPW should be satisfied/happy on her own prior to looking for a relationship.

The interior adjustments and realizations that usually have to be implemented allow the ladies to shift their perceptions in such a way that they begin to notice things they were previously unaware of (often this includes behaviors that most men find tiresome and unattractive). Self-awareness and accountability are big things that take time understand.

[–]darla100 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for claryfing. This makes sense. I have a similar relationship to yours. From the outside it's 'equal', from the inside, we both have our separate roles that compliment each other. I allow him to be the man. The result is: we are basically flirting all the time. Even when we argue. It's not a bad life. Definitely reduces stress from work and family.

[–]darla100 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I suppose that using "RedPillWife" as the brand name of this sub makes some people confused. Several RP tactics and generalizations about women are downright scary. So the logical conclusion is that RPW are supportive of those views.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (18 children) | Copy Link

Loving what I'm reading so far! Here are some thoughts I have on infidelity:

  • Dating: Until it is clear that the two of you are in a relationship, I don't think it's cheating for either person to go on dates with other people, or be physical with others.

  • LTR + Marriage: I think any romantic interaction at all with other women is cheating with the exception of prostitutes/escorts. I also think lighthearted flirting is fine, or flirting with a purpose (e.g. to get a discount, further a business deal, etc). I have a bigger problem with actual affairs (emotions + physical + commitment to the 1 other woman) than random sex with strangers. But I agree with /u/phantomdream09 that in an LTR, there is zero room for infidelity and it is perfectly reasonable to leave them.

If you guys haven't, please watch* The Women* the original film not the remake. I won't spoil anything but it is SO GOOD and is related to this subject. (Thanks for the reccomendation /u/_wingnut_ !)

As I said in a different comment, I'd rather not know about most incidences of cheating - ignorance is bliss! I just want to focus on my part of the relationship and living a happy life. Knowing about minor things would only upset me and I firmly am against divorce so why would I want to be miserable with that knowledge in the back of my mind forever? The only exception to this is if there was a second wife/legitimate mistress with a real emotional attachment. I think people are sometimes too open and too interested in communication.

[–][deleted] 3 points3 points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]BellaScarletta1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I shared this thread with a super naturally RP friend the other day, and she told me a story of when she asked for extra cheese on a meal order in a restaurant and ended up getting it for free by being nice and playful, etc.

Her SO was standing right there with his jaw open and afterwards goes "YOU JUST FLIRTED FOR CHEESE!" At first she was like "what the hell are you talking about??" and then after running through the interaction she totally clued in that he was right and was playfully yelling at him to stop arguing with results and focus on the $0.50 she just saved them hahahaha.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I responded to a different comment:

Disclaimer: This is all just me thinking out loud, and not in any way an offical RPW position. It's really weird of me but I basically don't see prostitutes as real people. I know objectively that they are but something about the fact that they're performing a job makes things seem more detached. When I think about it, I have a hard time viewing escorts differently than tailors or hair stylists. I know they are completely different, but I don't have the same visceral reaction, the emotions aren't there, and as an ENFP that is a big deal when it comes to how I shape my opnions.

It's totally not rational and I don't actual want married men to use escort services. It is better than a lot of alternatives though and I know that I personally would have an easier time moving past an escort related incident of infidelity. Watching House also made me more neutral towards escorts (whereas before I was very anti prostitution, now I don't care) but of course fictional stories aren't the same as real life.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

any romantic interaction at all with other women is cheating with the exception of prostitutes/escorts

I was with you until this - can you explain this further?

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Disclaimer: This is all just me thinking out loud, and not in any way an offical RPW position.

It's really weird of me but I basically don't see prostitutes as real people. I know objectively that they are but something about the fact that they're performing a job makes things seem more detached. When I think about it, I have a hard time viewing escorts differently than tailors or hair stylists. I know they are completely different, but I don't have the same visceral reaction, the emotions aren't there, and as an ENFP that is a big deal when it comes to how I shape my opnions.

It's totally not rational and I don't actual want married men to use escort services. It is better than a lot of alternatives though and I know that I personally would have an easier time moving past an escort related incident of infidelity. Watching House also made me more neutral towards escorts (whereas before I was very anti prostitution, now I don't care) but of course fictional stories aren't the same as real life.

[–]tintedlipbalm1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Watching House also made me more neutral towards escorts

I was totally the same way! I watched House on TV a lot as a teen and it challenged my perceptions of the 'dirtiness' that normally comes with the picture. Same with Lt. Dan's use of prostitutes, I feel like those details in the stories made me understand why female sexual companionship is revitalizing to men in a way women can't grasp firsthand.

This thread wasn't really framed in a way I could respond, because escort use is still adultery, but the term cheating is more subjective and nebulous. Adultery doesn't cover unfulfilled romantic emotional attachments, which is mildly covered by 'affair'. I guess the question is whether adultery is always a dealbreaker, and this is where a lot of people disagree.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think Phantom was right to use the term "cheating" in her original question because it also applies to other relationships that aren't marriage. I agree that a lot of things are not adultery but still inappropriate or breaking commitment/boundaries. It's definitely interesting to see where people draw the line and what their deal-breakers are.

[–]BellaScarletta1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm pretty much with you here. I wouldnt want my SO or H to hire an escort, but if they did it would be a completely different issue to me than being seduced by another woman. It's different knowing she performed a business transaction vs actually tried to poach my man.

Now I definitely wouldn't say "Ohhh she was an escort? No harm done! Pass the milk, dear!" But it would be a fully different discussion. The part I would be upset about would be the why he sought it out as opposed to what actually took place.

If it was a one-time thing under specific circumstances I don't think I would be too traumatized. If it was an ongoing thing with no apparent root, I would mostly just be hurt about my insufficiency.

[–]Camille11325[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Right the context of the interaction with the escort (or any woman really) definitely would determine the impact it has on me. Have you read this comment left by /u/tintedlipbalm? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, does it line up with your approach to the subject as well?

[–]BellaScarletta0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Sorry I took so long to reply to this comment! I wanted to have time to actually do it thoughtfully.

but the majority of long-time married women would be alright if it was discrete enough that it never became known. Not that they would openly advocate it, or like it, and would still officially condemn it if someone asked.

I think understanding the distinction between "WOULD NOT ADVOCATE IT" vs "WOULD BE ALRIGHT" is where we are losing several of the people who are knee-jerk disagreeing with this perspective. I would never advocate sex on the side. I don't actually know (without having been there) if I would be okay with it under those specific conditions (discretion, etc). I do, however, completely understand the sentiment, and at this point really can't say how I would react if put in that position.

I do know, no matter what, the absence of discretion would almost guarantee be the 'break' part of a make-or-break situation, whereas discretion would be the absolute best chance for the 'make' outcome.

I think for the majority of women social humiliation is more earth shattering, so affairs that aren't discrete and that involve the social circle knowing are the relationship-threatening ones.

Definitely agree.

I've discussed this with my mom a lot and in her generation there were a lot of euphemisms of the man getting something on the side, because it wasn't something horrifying if done discretely as it should or thought about in the abstract. It was when he brought her home, or that the friends knew, that it was super wrong because it involved the social humiliation, like the inevitability of the wife to establish it as 'real'.

This is something I can understand on a rational level, but it's just a perspective that I can't really understand being that it's indoctrinated out of my generation. I can be completely self-aware and honest to say that I think the big difference between me "being alright with it" versus ending the relationship would be if it was a social norm or not. If euphemisms on the subject were still abundant because the actual occurrence still carried the same permissive attitudes....I would likely be more permissive. But BECAUSE it's so taboo now, I might not be able to get over it....which really only stands to further prove the above point of "...social humiliation is more earth shattering...."

I know (as I said above) my biggest hangup would be the personal insult it would feel to me, not the actual infidelity. Feelings of "not being enough" would far outweigh the actual event.

[–]tintedlipbalm0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Just going to firstly say that arguing my position is not arguing 'for' cheaters or defending cheating (I know you get it but for anyone else reading that might interpret it that way).

my biggest hangup would be the personal insult it would feel to me, not the actual infidelity. Feelings of "not being enough" would far outweigh the actual event.

As we know, here are different types of cheating. If a man 'strays' because he is being underappreciated, is in a dead bedroom situation, emotionally neglected, the wife has let go physically... in that sense yeah, most sensible people tend to be nuanced and understand the partner's responsibility in creating the issue, because in that sense it could be completely avoidable.

The other type would be sex on the side because of variety. As a woman you just can't be more people, lol. Role-playing started to satiate this (I don't actually believe it's women being adventurous for their own sake, but done to please the man), and porn satiates it at some level. It's intrinsic to male sexuality. Actually going through it though comes hand in hand with extroverted dominance and self-interest. I know women who are perfect warm wives but the men might have a fling in an out of state conference because, why not? It's not because the wife was bad to him. He comes back with renewed energy and remains a good father and husband. It is only an issue if they pick crazy one that will threaten to call her or whatever (again: social humiliation being the real threat).

Sorry if this is super rambly or if it doesn't quite explain the difference that might exist between not knowing and consciously not knowing and preferring it that way. I think under this thought process, it's reasonable to somewhat 'green light' escorts because there's less risk of exposure from her side (if it's a service, and not an fling, she has no point in exposing him to his family), even though it would apply to stranger sex of any kind.

but it's just a perspective that I can't really understand being that it's indoctrinated out of my generation

I also think about this a lot. It would be very interesting if this morality would change things in the long run. Regardless of words said, it would only be effective if cheaters weren't reproducing. The thing is I'm not observing this yet... it seems like women have cheaters' babies, whether unknowingly, or even as a way to keep a man/try to fix a relationship. I often hear of women divorcing/breaking up with a serial cheater after having his child. When I think of it, I think it we would only remove cheating behavior if an evolutionary female response was to kill his offspring as soon as he had sex outside of the marriage, which would really deviate from what we know of reproduction. Some women do seem to be selecting for men that align morally to them in terms of upholding monogamy (as far as we know) but then they also seem to be moral about issues like overpopulation and individuality and then they don't breed as much or at all to pass these selections (not to mention the huge effect of birth control which is in itself a divergence and leads to divergent behavior, so much to think about here). I don't know, this is a huge generalization and I will keep on observing and reflecting on it as time passes.

Kinda related, I don't know if you've heard of the sexy son hypothesis and it's basically nature selecting for promiscuity (not only male promiscuity, by the way, and not only in terms of humans). Interesting bit:

Fisher's principle means that the sex ratio (except in certain eusocial insects) is always 1:1 between males and females, yet what matters most are her "sexy sons"' future breeding successes, more likely if they have a promiscuous father, in creating large numbers of offspring carrying copies of her genes.

[...]

Thus, traits culturally perceived as negative can still be seen as desirable; for example, females who stay with or are attracted to males they know to be disloyal in a monogamous relationship. If this trait is passed to any male children, they are more likely to themselves be non-monogamous, have several mates and spread the female's genes to multiple grandchildren.

[–]BellaScarletta0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Just going to firstly say that arguing my position is not arguing 'for' cheaters or defending cheating (I know you get it but for anyone else reading that might interpret it that way).

Yeah I keep seeing that lol. Disclaimer is never a bad idea for those just looking for reasons to get hung-up.

The other type would be sex on the side because of variety. As a woman you just can't be more people, lol. Role-playing started to satiate this (I don't actually believe it's women being adventurous for their own sake, but done to please the man), and porn satiates it at some level. It's intrinsic to male sexuality.

I rationally.....get it. But I still feel like I would be personally offended, and can fully admit that's not a reasonable reaction to the position (as you said, you can't just be more people haha).

I know women who are perfect warm wives but the men might have a fling in an out of state conference because, why not? It's not because the wife was bad to him. He comes back with renewed energy and remains a good father and husband. It is only an issue if they pick crazy one that will threaten to call her or whatever (again: social humiliation being the real threat).

Definitely to this.

Sorry if this is super rambley or if it doesn't quite explain the difference. I think under this thought process, it's reasonable to somewhat 'green light' escorts because there's less risk of exposure from her side (if it's a service, and not an fling, she has no point in exposing him to his family), even though it would apply to unattached stranger sex of any kind.

No not at all! You and I are definitely in accord as far as the principles go. The application is where my emotional reaction tells me "I'm just not sure how it would actually affect me if it came down to it." But I do understand it and really wish there was more of the traditional attitude toward it...On a rational level, I wouldn't fault a man for craving that diversity.

Kinda related, I don't know if you've heard of the sexy son hypothesis and it's basically nature selecting for promiscuity (not only male promiscuity, by the way, and not only in terms of humans). Interesting bit:

Fisher's principle means that the sex ratio (except in certain eusocial insects) is always 1:1 between males and females, yet what matters most are her "sexy sons"' future breeding successes, more likely if they have a promiscuous father, in creating large numbers of offspring carrying copies of her genes.

I don't really........get this?? I think I'm totally misunderstanding lol. The direction my brain is going with this is a man cheating on a woman, and bearing another child with his mistress....how does that carry on copies of her genes? It would be the mistresses genes?

I know that doesn't make sense so I'm confident I'm not interpreting correctly lol.

[–]tintedlipbalm0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Because the promiscuous behavior gets passed to the sexy son. In the long run, it passes her genes (through her son, not his promiscuous father). It's interesting, and just an animal theory by the way, but I like to see how it parallels with what I know.

But I still feel like I would be personally offended

I totally get it, this is normal womaning it's why we're talking about it in the abstract. A great deal of its success as a practice is that the woman never knows, so it wouldn't involve her feelings in that sense. But looking at it in in a removed manner (examples today and generations past) is a good way to understand this side of men and make peace with what we can't control.

Women and men's strategies are at odds so it's interesting to explore. On a side note, keeping it on the abstract also functions in favor of female communication even on here when we're anonymous, because otherwise someone will ask "so your husband cheats on you?" in a confronting fashion and this would trigger the social humiliation aspect the woman really wants to avoid.

[–]BellaScarletta1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because the promiscuous behavior gets passed to the sexy son. In the long run, it passes her genes (through her son, not his promiscuous father). It's interesting, and just an animal theory by the way, but I like to see how it parallels with what I know.

AH! Way more sense- thank you (:

Women and men's strategies are at odds so it's interesting to explore. On a side note, keeping it on the abstract also functions in favor of female communication even on here when we're anonymous, because otherwise someone will ask "so your husband cheats on you?" in a confronting fashion and this would trigger the social humiliation aspect the woman really wants to avoid.

Too true, also on the personal level it's hard to achieve the abstract discussion without triggering "Why? Why do you want to talk about this? Does it apply to you?", and even if not that....I think it would be hard to get a woman to be honest with herself while still under the microscope of other women.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I personally would have an easier time moving past an escort related incident of infidelity

So, it would get to you, but you'd just get over it faster? I think I see what you're saying. Maybe it's because I'm an INTJ, but I don't think I would be able to move past something like that - I would certainly try, but the forgetting part of "forgive and forget" has always been a catching point for me.

[–]tintedlipbalm0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just curious how this reflects being INTJ? Because I'm INTJ too and I thought it just made me more realistic on the reconciliation of what I could bear and + what I know about male sexuality by looking at human history.

I don't think normal women like or overtly approve of sex encounters on the side, but the majority of long-time married women would be alright if it was discrete enough that it never became known. Not that they would openly advocate it, or like it, and would still officially condemn it if someone asked. But realistically I know many (older) people with this internal approach.

I think for the majority of women social humiliation is more earth shattering, so affairs that aren't discrete and that involve the social circle knowing are the relationship-threatening ones. I've discussed this with my mom a lot and in her generation there were a lot of euphemisms of the man getting something on the side, because it wasn't something horrifying if done discretely as it should or thought about in the abstract. It was when he brought her home, or that the friends knew, that it was super wrong because it involved the social humiliation, like the inevitability of the wife to establish it as 'real'.

I get where Camille is coming from because it's like this thing you don't really like as a woman but realistically know can happen, and has happened many times in the history of human relationships. I think looking at it from that perspective makes a lot of women make peace with the possibility.

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes you explained this perfectly!! It's hard to get the idea across because a lot of women today don't have this mindset so when you try to give a more traditional view it sounds like you're endorsing cheating, or that you are fine with an open marriage.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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