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Please follow subreddit rules when responding to this post. Negative responses about Donald Trump are allowed but you must write a thoughtful comment and actually answer the questions. You also must be prepared to defend your position. Celebrating Trump's win is fine too, as long as you also include a thoughtful response to the post itself.

Donald Trump's presidency is going to have an enormous impact on American culture. His disposition sets the tone for the country and already people are reacting strongly. On the left many people now feel afraid, unsafe, depressed, and angry. Feminists and strong liberals are understandably in shock and they don't seem to be handling the news of his win very well. In contrast those who supported Trump are filled with renewed energy and hope. Trump has motivated many who were disillusioned with the state of US politics and they see that he has disrupted the course of events, opening the door to new possibilities.

Some RPW related questions:

  • How do you think Donald Trump's election will affect inter-sexual dynamics?
  • Will men embrace masculinity and stop adhering to feminist standards? Will they decide to commit more or enjoy their freedom knowing that they don't have to be guilted into treating women a certain way?
  • Do you think feminists will double down on their positions, use Donald Trump as the ultimate example of "toxic masculinity", and resist him every step of the way?
  • Will media outlets portray women who support Trump in a negative light, shame them, or otherwise try to lower their status? Or maybe non feminist women will be able to voice their opinions and even hold influence?

Feel free to answer any or all of these questions or just share your thoughts on how Donald Trump's presidency will affect the SMP, gender relations, marriages, or any other thing we discuss on the sub regularly.


[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I've been looking around and reading a lot of stuff for a while now. I've been a fan of Trump since the day he announced. The people that are 'shocked' and 'baffled' are so disconnected from the pulse of the country and what people are genuinely craving. The liberals and feminists have been yelling about how women are marginalized, under-appreciated, and how the entire system is rigged against them. That story gets really old really fast, when such a large portion of the country is struggling to find work and support themselves and their family. They see industries closed down, exported to illegal immigrants, and overseas. It's hard to believe middle class white chick, when she paints all white men with the 'privileged' brush of undeserved success. Blue collar, and poor working whites (and minorities) have grown tired of being insulted, berated, and ignored.

I'd say that sexism is a concern - but it's not a center-of-the-earth issue when they're too busy trying to find steady work and make a living. The left infantilizes women, and minorities, and speaks as the authority for both. There are some really fantastic comments on the PPD sub that go over these same issues. The sexism may not appeal to many - but jobs, and the promise of having their economic concerns addressed, their legal citizenship protected, and some energy infused back into the US is a the most promising thing that they've heard in 8 years.

It's important to note that he's not racist - he doesn't want to deport legal citizens, regardless of where they hail from. He wants to strengthen the boarders, and stifle the free-loading. I'm continually amazed how people cannot understand the difference between legal and illegal immigrants. I also hear the "well if they don't do certain jobs - those jobs won't get done!" which is complete bullshit. Illegal immigrants undercut the wages employers are willing to pay, leech off (and overwhelm) our systems. People are so busy yelling 'fire' and behaving hysterically. Mr. Trump has promised to help AMERICANS.

I think feminists and far left liberals are upset because for so long reasonable, hard working people have been mostly okay with just keeping quiet and letting them run rampant. That's not the case anymore. The blue collar, and poor working classes have seen what the idealist left can reap - lots of words and flowery sentiments. When Obama adopts a 'street' persona to relate to blacks, it's an affront to what black people actually experience and live. He bought the presidency on the color of his skin, and people have seen that sharing someone's skin color does not mean they will share their values. Working class blacks do not want to be treated as a charity case, they are tired of being boxed in and having their independence shackled to welfare.

There was a video about voter id, and all the nice white college kids said that id requirements were racist against blacks. They listed such reasons as: blacks don't have access to the internet, the dmv, they can't get id's. All the blacks that were interviewed on the other hand did not see an issue with it at all. They were shocked, and annoyed that whites were so stupid and ignorant about how blacks live and operate in today's world.

People want to rail against the idea of restricting immigration - what they conveniently ignore is just how rigorous, limiting, and racist Mexico's own laws are against foreigners. Mexico benefits because many illegals send money back home. I am happy to have people immigrate into the US - I just think they should have to do so legally. It's an incredibly long and tiring process for those that follow the rules, and when I hear liberals defending illegals because 'racism' it's just another example of how disconnected they are from everyday America.

No one elected Trump because racist, sexist, blah blah blah. They want jobs, stability, and to stop throwing fistfuls of handouts to everyone except the struggling working classes.

I think the secret slogan of Trump's campaign is: "This country is not your safe-space." That applies to women, illegals, and feminists alike.

There is a huge cultural divide, and it's not between the races - it's between the dreamy idealists intent on controlling everything (including who can and cannot be a struggling victim) and the rest of the country that's tired of being constantly shat on and neglected.

(Tagging /u/BellaScarletta because I didn't directly reply to her comment)

[–]BellaScarletta6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I typed out this really great and eloquent (take my word for it lol) response to how much I agreed with the point about illegal aliens...then my page refreshed. I'm really sad haha.

But TL;Dr I am so bothered by how pro-illegal immigration people can be. It isn't even a matter of racism AT ALL. I'm white as hell and if I tried to live in another white as hell country without going through any legal process....I would face consequences. Immigration isn't some whimsical concept evil racist white Americans created. It's an important part of any country's domestic policies.

My friend (literally 30 minutes before you wrote this comment) chatted a group convo talking about how ridiculous it is Trump is actually trying to build a wall and said something about our disbelief. I was like "ehhh, speak for yourself."

I'm not necessarily pro-wall, but I am anti-illegal immigration. If the wall in application would be a poor solution and fiscally irresponsible...then sure, I'm anti-wall. But if it was practically effective from development to function...then sure, I'm pro-wall. I don't care how we address the illegal immigrant problem, but it is a problem that needs addressing.

She then made the emotional appeal of what horrible conditions those people are trying to escape. I'm sorry but there are horrible conditions everywhere including right here at home. Poverty? Check. Starvation? Check. Violence? Check. We need to take care of our own as any country would do. One thing I sent her was:

Like I said, I'm not pro-wall necessarily, but I'm not against it either. And I don't mean any of this without compassion....if some tragic event happened here and we all had to flee...I would get to Canada as fast as I could, legal or not. BUT I wouldn't fault the Canadians for making every effort to keep me out or reprimand me if I were caught. That's what countries have to do to ensure their own interests.

So yeah, current attitudes toward illegal immigration blows my mind.

Also that turned into way more than a TL;Dr lol.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwig2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There is a huge cultural divide, and it's not between the races - it's between the dreamy idealists intent on controlling everything (including who can and cannot be a struggling victim) and the rest of the country that's tired of being constantly shat on and neglected.

Because nowadays, feminists tend to be privileged women who live in bubbles. That's why feminists don't see the struggle of men, they're too self-absorbed.

Here is an excerpt from an article written by Michael Moore:

Reason 2 Why Trump Will Win:

The Last Stand of the Angry White Man. Our male-dominated, 240-year run of the USA is coming to an end. A woman is about to take over! How did this happen?! On our watch! There were warning signs, but we ignored them. Nixon, the gender traitor, imposing Title IX on us, the rule that said girls in school should get an equal chance at playing sports. Then they let them fly commercial jets. Before we knew it, Beyoncé stormed on the field at this year’s Super Bowl (our game!) with an army of Black Women, fists raised, declaring that our domination was hereby terminated! Oh, the humanity!

That’s a small peek into the mind of the Endangered White Male. There is a sense that the power has slipped out of their hands, that their way of doing things is no longer how things are done. This monster, the “Feminazi,”the thing that as Trump says, “bleeds through her eyes or wherever she bleeds,” has conquered us — and now, after having had to endure eight years of a black man telling us what to do, we’re supposed to just sit back and take eight years of a woman bossing us around?

http://michaelmoore.com/trumpwillwin/

The election was all about turning a blind eye to what is really going on in the country.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

By then animals will have been granted human rights and a fuckin’ hamster is going to be running the country. 

This part was my favorite. The slippery slope argument. Every. Fucking. Time. (Also how apropos for this sub that he chose hamster.)

[–]vanBeethovenLudwig1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ahaha! I didn't even realize the hamster part! Excellent choice of words, Michael.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwig7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm definitely curious as to how the election affects gender political as well. I don't feel I have a very in depth opinion but I do have some thoughts:

Feminists will become the new "Trump supporters" (by that I mean rallying together and feeling passionate about hating on Melania for being "just a model" and hating Trump for choosing to have a beautiful wife).

Men will secretly be relieved to have an embodiment of masculinity (by that I mean a successful entrepreneur man with a feminine wife who is beautiful and supported him) but they won't admit it.

I also think the fashion industry will skyrocket because whether you voted blue or red, Melania knows her fashion.

[–]Camille11325[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great predictions! I do think that men are going to be more vocal, maybe not year 1 but definitely during Trump's term. Hopefully Melania gets press coverage and becomes a fashion icon but I can see people hanging on to Michelle Obama (even though I never understood the fascination with her looks or style).

[–]anitapk0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think women relate better to not perfect looking women.

[–]StingrayVC6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you think Donald Trump's election will affect inter-sexual dynamics?

Potentially, he could vastly change the dynamics. Men are are starting to come out of their shells because they no longer believe they are alone, or they no longer feel cowed. Though I attribute this more so to men like Milo than I do Trump. Trump could keep the wave going.

Do you think feminists will double down on their positions, use Donald Trump as the ultimate example of "toxic masculinity", and resist him every step of the way?

Without a doubt, and most likely this will continue to bury them.

Will media outlets portray women who support Trump in a negative light, shame them, or otherwise try to lower their status?

Absolutely.

Or maybe non feminist women will be able to voice their opinions and even hold influence?

Yes, because there are women out there who will ride the wave just as Trump did and make a name for themselves. I think some are well on their way, but I don't follow social media enough to know who they are. Basically, they will be women Shitlords and they will do well.

[–]Camille11325[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Agreed all around! I hope that more men like Milo gain popularity and we reclaim the term "Alt Right".

[–]StingrayVC1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you read Mike Cernovich?

[–]TempestTcup 9 points9 points [recovered] | Copy Link

If you follow Strauss and Howe, I think that the Trump election is the climax of the Fourth Turning, and that, with this election, the pendulum has begun its swing to the right into a period of a new traditionalism. It reminds me very much of 1980's election, my first election as a voter, and the swing to the right we experienced with Reagan after the excesses of the 1970s.

[–]yetieaterHusband (9yrs), mid-30s,1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Have an emphatic upvote for that. I am also hugely reminded of the 1980s at the moment (although I was a young child throughout). The details have changed - in the 80s we had a free market right wing, now the right in both US and UK are turning against free trade. And notice the left winger has changed as well - Bernie did unbelievably well, and in the UK our left wing has gone to the extremes. In the 80s this pattern occurred as well.

[–]TempestTcup 3 points3 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, also Millennials were raised differently than the first wave Gen-X that had just graduated in the early 80s. We were latchkey kids, and Millennials were mostly helicopter parented. Gen-X had so much freedom, and Millennials weren't allowed to play outside because of stranger danger and sunburn.

So, this swing to the right will look very different than the one I went through as a young adult.

[–]yetieaterHusband (9yrs), mid-30s,4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn't discount the effect of the cold war being over either - in many ways the economic ideology of the 80s owed as much to defining capitalism vs communism making capitalism look very much like a morally superior system. Post crash, the free market system and it's flaws are far more open for criticism. Simple efficiency is no longer the winning argument, quality of life and moral values involved seem ascendant.

I find the later millennials (technically I'm boundary between X and millennial I think) terribly frustrating politically, at the moment. They aren't grounded enough for my tastes, they seem to want everything all at once rather than patiently grinding away. But they probably hate my lack of idealism just as much, I suppose.

[–]BellaScarletta10 points11 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I don’t claim to be any authority on the nuances of politics or the complexity of its cause and effects..that being said, I’ll give this a shot with my personal thoughts.

How do you think Donald Trump's election will affect inter-sexual dynamics?

I’m concerned it won’t change at all. I think an anti-establishment candidate should have a positive effect on the overly-PC culture, but I think Trump is just too much. I am very anti-Hillary, but I am also not pro-Trump in the slightest. I really want to believe there is a capable man in there that will do good for this country, but I’m not sure that will be the case. In my perfect (completely fictitious world), neither Trump nor Hillary would have been our candidates. I saw a quote that said “Hillary is everything wrong with our government and Trump is everything wrong with our culture”…or something to that effect, not far off the mark IMO.

I think Trump does have a genuine opportunity to restore some sanctity to our country, but he also has a large opportunity to inject it with unadulterated vitriol. I very much hope for the former. There is bound to be anger no matter what he does and I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with that…but if he spends too much time angering people he will lose the credibility to inspire any sustainable change. I think a candidate like Trump, but with better impulse control and basic manners (not political correctness…just genuine manners) would have a much more positive effect on inter-sexual dynamics.

Will men embrace masculinity and stop adhering to feminist standards? Will they decide to commit more or enjoy their freedom knowing that they don't have to be guilted into treating women a certain way?

Again, I would hope so..but I’m not holding my breath. Trump gets away with what he does because of money and clout not accessible to the layman. I don’t think the common man can relate to this. A candidate like Romney who does what he does (of course, with some money and clout as well) with more composure would be a far better example for the masculine ideal. A layman can aspire to conduct himself like Romney, whereas they cannot without the prerequisite riches to conduct himself like Trump. So I’m skeptical how accessible of a role model for masculinity Trump is at all.

Do you think feminists will double down on their positions, use Donald Trump as the ultimate example of "toxic masculinity", and resist him every step of the way?

Hell yes I do. I think Romney would have been a better conduit of traditional vs toxic masculinity. They hated him as well, but they are pre-destined to hating any white male running for president. The difference would be which kind of candidate could gently spoon feed them values - versus which candidate is like the babysitter too busy throwing tantrums to effectively stop the children’s tantrums. The latter is where I think (but certainly don’t hope) we are headed.

Will media outlets portray women who support Trump in a negative light, shame them, or otherwise try to lower their status? Or maybe non feminist women will be able to voice their opinions and even hold influence?

Again, a resentful “hell yes” to the former, and “not likely” to the latter. If Trump had any semblance of frame, I think he could inspire more respect and lend credibility to said women. I think the anti-establishment and rejection of PC culture is something we desperately do need, but it would be most effective and accessible if it was paired with basic manners and frame. I am vaguely hopeful he will move in this direction…but presented as his current strategy it is, I think we will be met with kicking and screaming all the way. And I think that’s a shame because it detracts from his potential.


Again, I do really hope that as President he will step away from his more childish behaviour and accomplish what I do believe he could in regards to restoring tradition and breaking down the age of offendedness, but the question really remains is just because he could…will he? I just don’t know. I do hope so.

[–]StingrayVC11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

but he also has a large opportunity to inject it with unadulterated vitriol.

What if I told you that this vitriol has been there for a very, very long time and Trump is the result of it, not the cause?

[–]BellaScarletta2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Then I would probably not disagree, but also respond that unless he can be part of the solution...the chicken/egg semantics don't really matter to me.

[–]StingrayVC4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Ok. Makes sense.

Now, what if part of the solution is vitriol because it is the only way to cut through the noise?

(Please understand, I have no desire or time to argue about this. I am genuinely curious about your answer)

[–]Camille11325[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you and I wrote a comment to BSC that expands on this idea!

[–]BellaScarletta2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No no that's quite fine, I'd like to think you and I get along quite well (..at least I can't recall any spats right now d: ). And what is this sub if not a place for pushing each other a little farther on opinions, particularly controversial ones?

As for my answer...I have a difficult time believing it, but it does make a degree of sense. It strikes me as the sort of thing where one of us is very correct on paper, and then in application it will be just a mess. I don't know which one, because if you take the converse of what I'm saying (read: Hillary's loveydovey feel good everybody no matter what we are all great).....that's not something I'm rooting for either.

I don't think we all need to feel good all the time, and a dose of offense is something we are in desperate need of receiving. But I want that offense to be well aimed and productive, and currently Trump inspires and makes permissible a level of racism and hatred amongst neighbors that I struggle to imagine is working toward a constructive outcome.

If you asked me right now to imagine the basic script of what we made need in terms of political incorrectness, versus what we are getting (and bear with me because I'm just thinking off the cusp right now). It would be the difference between telling everyone off and calling a spade a spade, versus wanton hatred aimed at specific ethnic groups or similar, as we've been seeing. I don't mind Trump responding to a social gripe with "that's fucking bullshit and unimportant, sit down and quit whining" (regardless of whether that is targeted at ethnic groups or the privileged white man lol). But I do very much mind him responding reactionarily with pointed bigotry and ignorance.

I do have hope these were shock tactics used during the campaign (please don't ask me how they worked lol, but hats off for that strange success), and that instead he will continue to use them, but applied in more strategic/diplomatic ways with a clearer end to his means.

I guess if I had to explain my distaste with an applicable anecdote, I can't recall where I read the news story and if it was local to my area or not...but what I don't need Trump inspiring is his supporters hanging black mannequins from trees in their front yards with his campaign signs taped to them. That happened. And if that's what your leadership inspires in a nation as diverse as ours... I am sincerely concerned for where it will take us.

[–]Camille11325[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How much of Trump’s speeches have you watched yourself, in full? How much of his original writing have you read, in full? As someone who has followed his campaign very closely I disagree completely with your characterization of him. There is a HUGE gap between Trump’s personality and the way the media portrays him. I’ve seen his words twisted and taken out of context countless times over the months and he has basically been the butt of every joke and an acceptable target in a way that they’d never apply to Hillary. People call him childish, unstable, inappropriate, dangerous, etc. and they are all shaming words designed to punish him for being a man who speaks his mind and goes against the establishment. A woman may feel threatened, offended, or afraid after someone says something but that doesn’t mean that the other person was actually threatening, offensive, or trying to instill fear. Their perception and emotions don’t dictate reality.

Now this is not to say that I think he is a prime example of traditional masculinity or a greater beta ideal, but I think it is great that he isn’t. Masculinity isn’t just the handful of traits that we value most in the West. As I mentioned in one of my relationship dynamic posts, there are all sorts of alpha and beta traits and male archetypes. Trump is confident, bold, true to his beliefs, driven, analytical, magnanimous, and he knows how to get things done. His success both in business and with women cannot be ignored when assessing his masculinity and his behaviour throughout his campaign highlighted how spineless and grossly feminine his Republican opponents were.

There is a serious crisis in our country when it comes to men being able to embrace and express their masculinity and I hope that Trump’s attitude can motivate other men to stand their ground as well. For too long men have rolled over and/or held their tongues as feminists and leftists warped the culture. Plenty checked out completely and have taken a more selfish (but understandable) “fiddle while the world burns” approach. And then there are those who have deluded themselves into abiding by the nonsense; I’m not talking about actual leftist men but rather the moderates who don’t know any better or those who think that bowing down to women is a good sexual strategy. Trump doesn’t have to be the perfect man to have a positive impact, and his rawness makes him even better at this point in time - so many need to be jolted into action.

And this brings me to my second area of disagreement with what you were saying in this comment section (I’m responding to a collection of your comments not just the one I’m literally responding to). I think that anger is definitely warranted today; it is the proper response to a lot of things happening right now. I do not believe that anger is inherently bad or that compromise and being nice is inherently good all the time. There are groups that are pushing for legislation and cultural norms that should not win. There are groups that are literally trying to erase core American values and practises, and groups that are trying to silence any opposition. Why on earth would we hold back when we are trying to ensure that they don’t succeed? It’s very clear that opening a dialogue, patience, niceness, compromise, etc. don’t work when it comes to many of the issues that we are facing as a nation today. In fact those who are against leftism and feminism have been met with disrespect, dismissiveness, hostility, lies, violence, and more from the other side. This comment is already so long so I won’t get into examples here but if you’re not familiar with what I’m talking about I can expand just let me know. Please listen to Trump’s speech from last night/this morning if you haven’t already. He has been speaking about uniting the country all year but his acceptance speech really underscores how serious he is about making America great again.

[–]BellaScarletta4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How much of Trump’s speeches have you watched yourself, in full? How much of his original writing have you read, in full?

Truthfully, the same amount as I have Hillary's...not much. I don't consider myself the most educated voter, but I do consider myself someone who gives their best effort to understand both sides - not that they are synonymous, but I make a concerted effort to consume media on both sides of any issue.

I disagree completely with your characterization of him. There is a HUGE gap between Trump’s personality and the way the media portrays him.

I believe that fully and really disagree with how he's been demonized. But I reread my comments several times through and am trying to pick where I really characterized him much. I do think he is overly-impulsive and lacks frame. I think if he kept his current views and perspectives but delivered them...more respectably? I don't mean softer or with less conviction. Okay example, look at Putin, more like him is what I have in mind. People can say what they want about Putin, but they sure can't argue with the presence he commands.

I’ve seen his words twisted and taken out of context countless times over the months and he has basically been the butt of every joke and an acceptable target in a way that they’d never apply to Hillary.

Agree fully. I try not to pay too much mind to standalone videos/quotes/anything where you can't see the entire situation and the entirety of the candidate's words/what they were reacting to.

His success both in business and with women cannot be ignored when assessing his masculinity and his behaviour throughout his campaign highlighted how spineless and grossly feminine his Republican opponents were.

LOL at last sentence. Agreed with that also. But as far as success with women, I think that kind of relates to what I said here "Trump gets away with what he does because of money and clout not accessible to the layman...So I’m skeptical how accessible of a role model for masculinity Trump is at all."

There is a serious crisis in our country when it comes to men being able to embrace and express their masculinity and I hope that Trump’s attitude can motivate other men to stand their ground as well. For too long men have rolled over and/or held their tongues as feminists and leftists warped the culture.

This is my best-case scenario dream, I'm wary, but I have faith.

Trump doesn’t have to be the perfect man to have a positive impact, and his rawness makes him even better at this point in time - so many need to be jolted into action.

I don't disagree there either, I'm not sure this is who or how I would have chosen it done, but if it gets done I won't argue with results.

And this brings me to my second area of disagreement with what you were saying in this comment section[...]I think that anger is definitely warranted today; it is the proper response to a lot of things happening right now. I do not believe that anger is inherently bad or that compromise and being nice is inherently good all the time.

Also agree, perhaps I said it too softly but I did mean that when I said "there is bound to be anger no matter what he does and I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with that". But I worry there is a balance to strike to manipulate that anger positively, and I simply can't say if that's what will happen or not.

There are groups that are pushing for legislation and cultural norms that should not win. There are groups that are literally trying to erase core American values and practises, and groups that are trying to silence any opposition.

I don't disagree, but I'm curious specifically what?

Please listen to Trump’s speech from last night/this morning if you haven’t already. He has been speaking about uniting the country all year but his acceptance speech really underscores how serious he is about making America great again.

I read it this morning and genuinely liked it. I want for it to be true -- I wouldn't say my current mood is scared, but I would definitely say I'm apprehensive. I think we are at a breaking point and I want to hope it does Make America Great Again (and turned the other way, I wouldn't trust Hillary to do that one bit...), but I am filled with uncertainty of where we are going now.

[–]yetieaterHusband (9yrs), mid-30s,5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think it will entirely depend on whether he is seen as a failure or not. The cultural impact depends on him achieving things of note, and remaining popular.

I suspect If he is unsuccessful, it will bolster the position of the more extreme feminists and encourage further polarisation. And the current trends are likely to continue as Trump will not be seen as an admirable figure. However, he will tilt the supreme court right, so that is still going to affect culture. I would expect feminism to become even louder as more 'anti-women' cases could generate support for their cause.

If he succeeds to some degree and at least is generally popular it will be a different story. That could mean republicans will have to coalesce around a new position, and so the rather unfocused current ideology will solidify. That will potentially mean if he shows certain policies to work that democrats move more centrist rather than polarise further. In that situation you might see outright rejection of the more doctrinaire feminism by democrats, because leftist voters have no real alternative. You might even get clear articulation of a movement away from 'progressive' policy. In that situation maybe some men will feel more free to be masculine, although Trump isn't traditionalist in any sense really.

In the latter scenario I'd say a movement towards a legal and social environment which gives more social capital to marriage is possible and that could change social mores as marriageability becomes more important.

[–]BellaScarletta5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

However, he will tilt the supreme court right, so that is still going to affect culture. I would expect feminism to become even louder as more 'anti-women' cases could generate support for their cause.

I'll admit my bias as a social liberal to preface my thoughts on this...but I think this is very correct. I'm not sure if my next statement is what you were intending to get at, but I very much feel if he spends time fighting Roe v. Wade or Same-Sex Marriage or any of the social progress we've made....he'll throw his entire opportunity. However if he stays away from those and focuses on economic progress and upholding family values without legislatively alienating women/homosexuals/etc on the pretenses of a moral highground....then I think he could actually genuinely be a huge success.

[–]yetieaterHusband (9yrs), mid-30s,4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'll admit my bias as a social liberal to preface my thoughts on this...but I think this is very correct.

You probably have a better feel for the cultural context though, you are likely to be more perceptive of what will generate most anger and encourage his opponents than I do. I'd trust your gut on this.

I'm not sure if my next statement is what you were intending to get at, but I very much feel if he spends time fighting Roe v. Wade or Same-Sex Marriage or any of the social progress we've made....he'll throw his entire opportunity.

That was pretty much my thought. Focus on supreme court/legislative battles over culture is likely to be divisive and galvanise opposition. I think the use of the supreme court to fight cultural battles is a big part of what is driving polarisation in the US, personally, because imposition of morality by raw power seems to be the preferred method in US politics, as it stands. This kills compromise and debate, I think.

However if he stays away from those and focuses on economic progress and upholding family values without legislatively alienating women/homosexuals/etc on the pretenses of a moral highground....then I think he could actually genuinely be a huge success.

Maybe. I'm doubtful for his chances of success if he goes for a economic focus because the issues are obviously complex, but if it was successful and even managed to reinvigorate some of the forgotten communities that have lost most from outsourcing etc, he could be a massively popular success. Being seen as a rebuilder of the american dream in that sense would give enormous cultural power.

[–]BellaScarletta2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You know, I just fleshed this out fairly crudely with a friend...but here is where I think Trump has the potential to do astoundingly well.

The Republicans made the catch-22 decision to ally themselves fully with the Christian population; now, for better or worse...that's their base. The problem is Christianity now has golden handcuffs on their influence and presence. With Christian support, that's a lot of voting power. If they piss off that base..they're doomed. I've worked in politics for several years (not anymore because it's awful), but I primarily worked with Republicans or extremely centrist Democrats (read: in Republican pockets). Here is the issue....none of the candidates I worked for were pro-life, and none of them opposed same-sex marriage either. In fact, they were categorically in favour of both. AS THEIR CAMPAIGN TEAM WE HAD TO FORBID THEM FROM EVER BREATHING A WORD OF THAT. If their Christian voters found out, we would be doomed. That's the power of their golden handcuffs.

So where Trump could seriously succeed, is that he's made his platform telling whoever he wants to fuck off however he feels like. If we got into a situation where the Christians started screaming "Overturn Roe v. Wade! Overturn Same-Sex Marriage! Rabble Rabble Rabble!" And he turned around said said "Are you shitting me? With the state of the economy and domestic and foreign affairs...you think that's my priority? Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. No." Then that would be a huge step for Republicans to move back toward the economic policies that make them the party they are. The people will get exactly what they voted for, and the remainder of the pandering Republicans could use him as a scapegoat to turn their focus away from social issues (that frankly I don't think should be of federal concern anyway) and toward the issues that matter.

I'm sure I'm simplifying because despite my experience in the industry...meh, who can ever really catch every detail or not over-simplify on some level...but that seems like a huge upshot to me.

On the other hand, like you said, I think imposing moral standards with legislative power will be our undoing, but furthermore the worst thing that could happen to this country would be playing tug-of-war with social issues.

[–]yetieaterHusband (9yrs), mid-30s,0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's an interesting point, and useful anecdote which is probably widely representative of the situation. The republican need for christian votes is something that's really come out since the rise of the new left and particularly Nixon, and yes, Trump could provide opportunity for a mass realignment of republicans. But he absolutely has to be seen as a success by the man on the street for that to happen.

On the other hand, like you said, I think imposing moral standards with legislative power will be our undoing, but furthermore the worst thing that could happen to this country would be playing tug-of-war with social issues

Agreed, morality is important, and leadership can push a moral vision absolutely. But imposition of moral positions by legislation encourages people to ignore debate and demonise opponents in order to drum up their bases. Killing that element of US politics off might cut the legs from under both the christian right and extremist feminists. In my ideal world morality is promoted via a worthy example and persuasion rather than imposed by legal power.

The trouble is, the cultural wars over in the US have been raging for so long, so much has been invested into it, I'm not sure it can be avoided. The supreme court picking forces Trump into that arena in any case, and will brand all social issue cases under 'his' court as his fault. So Roe vs Wade or civil rights legislation being fought is not under Trump's control, really, once he pulls the trigger on the new justice.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you think Donald Trump's election will affect inter-sexual dynamics?

I think for a brief period (now until 7-8 months from now) we're going to see a sharp uptick in women who identify as feminists, and the women who currently identify will become more radicalized - entirely reactionary. As we've seen so far, most Hillary voters have been extremely reactionary in the past 24 hours.

I think after this period, once everyone gets their heads screwed back on the right way, it will begin to dawn on people that nothing bad has happened. At that time, I see a gradual warming to traditional male/female roles. Nothing crazy, but the feminists might quit railing against women who would rather raise a family than have a career.

Will men embrace masculinity and stop adhering to feminist standards? Will they decide to commit more or enjoy their freedom knowing that they don't have to be guilted into treating women a certain way?

I think so, aside from the ones who have already shackled themselves to feminists, either by marriage or sharing children with one. I think this will be a HUGE weight lifted off the shoulders of American men - not immediately, but relatively soon. Once they realize that it's okay for men to be men, things will normalize. On this I would only note that this is entirely speculative, I did not ask my SO his thoughts on it so I'm just guessing.

Do you think feminists will double down on their positions, use Donald Trump as the ultimate example of "toxic masculinity", and resist him every step of the way?

Yes; see my first answer. However, I think that over time, they may soften. I'm sometimes optimistic to a fault though.

Will media outlets portray women who support Trump in a negative light, shame them, or otherwise try to lower their status? Or maybe non feminist women will be able to voice their opinions and even hold influence?

Oh, they already are. Look at this article. It's just one of many that I've seen slathered all over Facebook in the past few months. The media doesn't respect any of us; in fact, they tried to do anything they could to pretend we didn't exist until it became undeniable. I was sneered at by a Hillary supporter yesterday who informed me that wearing a Women for Trump button was akin to him (a black guy) wearing a button that said Blacks for the KKK.


As far as overall predictions go, I am still nervous. I did not start as a Trump supporter; I actually caucused for Bernie. There's been a lot of soul-searching and introspection over this election season that lead me to voting for Trump. I didn't even agree with most of Bernie's policies, but he was an outsider, and that was important to me. That is still important to me, and surprisingly (to me, at least) that it's one of the things that makes me feel uneasy. My SO did point out that this is somewhat reminiscent to Reagan's rise to power though, and that was a comforting thought. I think Trump has the political and business acumen to steady the ship and bring us back to prosperity. I found this to be an extremely encouraging sign of things to come - Wall Street backed the wrong horse with Clinton, but they can see when profits are on the horizon. I think that Trump's time in office will encourage a return of masculinity and a greater appreciation for the differences in men and women; differences that make us more appropriately suited for different roles in life - differences that are okay.

[–]BellaScarletta1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

At that time, I see a gradual warming to traditional male/female roles. Nothing crazy, but the feminists might quit railing against women who would rather raise a family than have a career.

I hope your predictions are accurate. There are no words for how badly I hope your predictions are accurate.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm hopeful. I do feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders today, I can breathe a little easier as a woman who rejects feminism and SJW culture. We're not alone!

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

By the way, /u/Camille11325 - great idea for a post!

[–]Camille11325[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

At worst Trump will merely delay the inevitable apex matriarchal state and subsequent decline.

The media, as shown by all of the long newscaster and pundits faces, is anti-Trump, and they have already begun to "spin" a negative picture of the majority that supported Trump. Who will continue to still listen/watch them, if they are being insulted is hard to say, but they will lay bare their bias. How much the media will continue to be an influence after a loss of integrity is the real factor, as that is a major means of FI social conditioning.

[–]BellaScarletta3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you genuinely think a matriarchal state is inevitable? I haven't ever thought about it like that but I'm inclined to (kneejerk) disagree. I'm genuinely interested in hearing your reasoning.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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