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I came across this post through /r/bestof, where marriage counsellor /u/LuTuFu drops some of his marriage/vetting for marriage advice. A lot of it's very in line with what we preach over here.

I highly recommend reading his post in full, but for a quick summary of his points:

  • Your parents' marriage and upbringing will influence how you behave in a marriage. A broken home breeds children who are likely to struggle in their own relationships.

  • Once you're married, your marriage is your priority. Not your kids, your job or your hobbies.

  • Talk with kindness.

  • You're better off marrying someone from a similar culture and class.

  • Make sure your practical goals line up re: children, working arrangements, money.

  • Stop thinking in terms of "mine" and "yours". A marriage is a union, in all senses.

  • Keeping the love in a marriage is something to consciously work for. I love this quote from him: ""We just fell out of love" is one of the most common phrases I hear in couples struggling, and the sad thing is, its one of the easiest traps to avoid." Make an effort.

  • Your spouse takes priority over everyone else. If you need to choose between family, friends and your husband, he always comes first.

  • Date with a purpose. Vet your partner and look for red flags. These are the things that will damage your marriage later on.

I just love how he frames a happy marriage as something to work at and cultivate. It is not enough to just fall in love with your partner. Falling in love is easy! Keeping that love and growing a strong partnership is something you need to choose to do, and to work at every day.

What are your thoughts on his advice and warnings? Is it in line with your beliefs? His post is directed at men, but do you think it is appropriate advice for both sides of a marriage?

For those of us who love a bit of drama (guilty!), check out this comment where he recommends some reading. Some of the books hint that, gasp, men and women are different and want different things out of life, and reddit goes ahead to collectively lose. their. minds.

Holy shit no, no no NO. Wild at Heart and Captivating are awful destructive books do not read them. They fucking ruin women's self esteem and perpetuate terrible gender stereotypes.

Warning: Sexist religious drivel ahead! Read both wild at heart and captivating as a teenager. Met the Etheridges. They are slimy people akin to multi level marketing scammers. These books reenforce harmful gender stereotypes. i.e. Men want to prove them selves and accomplish things while women want to be pretty and desired.

Has anyone read Wild at Heart or Captivating? Maybe one for a future bookclub!


[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Your parents' marriage and upbringing will influence how you behave in a marriage. A broken home breeds children who are likely to struggle in their own relationships.

Oh god yes, my parents divorce and remarriages definately screwed up my view of relationships and even men entirely for a long while. My husband had to ask me twice to marry him (several years apart) because I felt like marriage would jinx us, even though we were strongly committed.

[–]Icouldrun4smiles 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh god yes, my parents divorce and remarriages definately screwed up my view of relationships and even men entirely for a long while.

Same. It definitely takes awhile to adjust to a healthy view of family/marriage after you learn one and find someone with a similar view.

My husband comes from an upper class traditional family and I come from lowerclass single parent one. It has been quite the adjustment.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the divorce itself unsettled me only a bit, i was only about 3, but it meant the backdrop to the whole of my childhood was the lingering animosity, especially when my mother remarried and her parents considered my step father a far better match than my father, and weren't subtle about it.

I think this gave me a completely different view of married life, and really it was the hypergamy and instability that i'd seen that made me negative about marriage - My husband's background of very stable and traditonal marriages for his parents and grandparents seemed really to give him a totally different outlook - and when I said "what if it goes wrong and we break up?" he just said "we'll work hard at it to avoid that".

[–]ragnarockette0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Me too. So much that when I find myself saying things that remind me of my mother, that's a good sign that I need to check myself and re-calibrate. That woman was crazy and married 3 times (all highly dysfunctional), she is not a relationship role model!

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's sad, isn't it? my childhood left me thinking that branch swinging to stay ahead of unfaithful men and the inevitable breakdown of relationships was the only way to survive.

It didn't help that at university is saw girls throw themselves at the rich boys in the hope of becoming a trophy wife or just getting free drinks and presents even. Urgh.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

You're better off marrying someone from a similar culture and class.

This is something I don't think people realize will have so much affect on their marriage. While you can talk in hypothetical about raising children once you start raising them if the two of you have different cultures you may start realizing how they clash.

I have a friend, she married someone with a different faith and while in the beginning they agreed we're going to raise our kids in faith A, now that the child is older, and questioning their own choices and faith the other parent said... what if we introduced child to faith B. But parent A thought the whole time they would go with faith A - so now I get to hear my friend talk about how cranky she is with the situation.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I agree, but I think the class bit is less important than culture, really class is only money-related when you take out the culture bits. If people are very culturally similar but one happens to have been raised by more wealthy parents, I think the issues aren't going to be too big.

I don't think it has no importance, just that the important bits of class relate to culture, not just money.

You're so right about culture becoming more important when raising children especially, I think that's really when these differences get talked about.

[–]Camille113255 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Class isn't only about money, it affects tastes, values, preferences, lifestyle, worldview, and more. A white, Christian, high prole man will have an entirely different upbrining than a white, Christian, upper middle class girl, even if they are from the same county. You can't "take out the culture bits" from class. Anyone marrying outside of their class has to adjust themselves and learn all sorts of norms and unspoken codes. In addition they'll often clash with their spouse's family. This happens whether you are going higher or lower, and the greater the gap in class, the more difficult it will be to make anything work.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sorry, I think I expressed myself badly - I can see what you mean, that's a really interesting link, and I can see some of that is definitely things I recognise.

I guess I was trying to say i thought the money element is less important than the cultural gaps. Like aspirational lower middle class might clash more with established upper middle than traditional working class would, because the social values differ more, even though in raw wealth they'd be closer.

Maybe when vetting, people should be cautious of assuming similar levels of class will necessarily mean similar culture?

[–]Camille113252 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I get what you're saying. The difference in our opinion is really just that I'm not separating class into culture vs money. If you take away that part, we are on the same page - the actual financial aspect of class may not be as big of an issue for couples.

Maybe when vetting, people should be cautious of assuming similar levels of class will necessarily mean similar culture?

Absolutely!

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do see your point as well, the money you have changes the tastes and cultural opportunities you have opportunity to experience growing up, so I maybe downplayed it by dividing the two

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I had another thought, maybe it's different for men and women in terms of marrying up in terms of how others react to it because the 'self-made man' image is very positive, but the 'golddigger' image for women would make suspicion from family greater that way round?

[–]Camille113251 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes there definitely seems to be a difference when it comes to men vs women on this issue, it'd be something to look into more for sure. If I find anything I'll let you know!

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thankyou!

Bearing in mind i'm very new and i've not thought about these things anywhere near as much as you and others here, I had a further thought FWIW:

In hypergamy by a woman, traditionally and even now to a degree, the family receiving her as a relative gain not much aside from her genetics and possibly greater fertility if she is younger than her husband (often the case in a large class jump IMO). I also think a woman marrying up is going to find more manners/social skills barriers to acceptance.

However, gaining a man capable of proving himself enough to marry up offers the receiving family his earning potential and obvious drive/determination needed as well as genetics. So although he will have to pass vetting to not be a cad after family wealth, a self-made man offers something more tangible to the family, and ties the potential of a rising person to the established family. Such a man projects a very masculine image, and so other men are likely to admire him, rather than pick at his manners, unless he does something outrageous.

I have no evidence! I'm just thinking how the social view could have formed.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Now you have me thinking.

Class could cause tension in the money management department. How they view money and spend/save money. Wouldn't affect all couples but many I am sure.

Saw a post in /relationships. Mega wealthy GF, lower middle class BF. The guy was posting about how she always wants to take these extravagant trips. She never asks him to chip in but he feels uncomfortable because he was raised to chip in. People responded about similar stories. But also about how GF probably doesn't see it as depending a lot of money so he should sit back and enjoy. She likes traveling and only wants to travel with him. But you could tell he was struggling to be okay with it. He saved and was relatively frugal.

[–]littleeggwyfEarly 30s, Married, 10 years total3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ooh, I do see your point, my hubs is from a working class background, and it does make a difference sometimes. Things like valuing time/money differently sometimes with work on house or cars being something, or him being really reluctant to accept money from my parents when his wage was lower. They offered to help with home purchase, and he insisted it would only be a loan.

We don't really have tension over it generally though, from moving in together he dealt with overall finances and bills and I dealt with shopping/house money from a budget and we don't backseat drive either role.

Maybe it's the issue of feeling like a bad provider or being dependent financially that causes tension, it undermines a captain role.

[–]StillTravelingMid 30s, Married 7 years2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wild at Heart is on my husband's bookshelf right now. I don't know if he's ever read it (he received it as a gift years ago). I read Captivating a few years back, and had the journal that went with it, but I don't remember a whole lot. I read it when I was evangelical Christian (which I'm currently not). Funny thing is, it's very possible I might agree with more of it now than I did in those days.

[–]Icouldrun4smiles 3 points3 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm down for an online book club. Those books were very praised in my high school / early college years.

[–]QueenBee1262 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Raises the hand that isn't holding my glass of sparkling water. "I'm in!"

[–]QueenBee1262 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really enjoyed this cross post, thank you for linking it!

[–]Camille113251 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great find! Love the hysterical reactions in the comments to his book suggestions. If anyone does read them please write a summary and review for the sub :)

[–]OneMadDwarfMan | 33 | Married 9 years, 17 total1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Divorce should not be part of a marriage's vocabulary except for certain extreme circumstances--abuse, obviously, or infidelity, though some might argue that one.

I just love how he frames a happy marriage as something to work at and cultivate. It is not enough to just fall in love with your partner. Falling in love is easy! Keeping that love and growing a strong partnership is something you need to choose to do, and to work at every day.

This is not repeated enough. Someone posted a gif a while back of an old veteran shaking hands with people as they ran a marathon. He had recently passed away, but had been married for 67 years and in his final days was heard to say, "I love you Mary. I'm coming with you." Someone in the comments said, "If only we could all find love like this."

The reply:

I believe that we can, or most of us can. I'm willing to bet that 67 years wasn't a fairy-tale. A healthy marriage, like most things worth having, is hard work. That kind of love is a choice both people make every day--a choice to be loyal, a choice to be patient, a choice to be honest and kind, a choice to put the other person's happiness before your own selfish desires, and a choice not to let fear poison the well of love that you both draw from....

If both people make the right choice day in and day out, eventually you blink and a decade has gone by. Then two. Then, I imagine, nearly seven. And I guess that's what "happily ever after" really looks like.

[–]Littleknownfacts3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Second top comment on an /r/askmen thread is from a woman. Face palm

But yeah, that advice is really good, and just vague enough to be easily applied to men or women, though what it looks like when applied to men or women would be different. Especially 'the marriage comes first', for a man it may be the best thing for the marriage to not put his wife on the pedestal, but for a woman it may be the best to put her husband there. The definition of 'marriage first' will change depending on the situation and the dynamic of the people in the relationship.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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