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I can almost guarantee that most of you incels have low T and you are virgins because of that and not because of your looks, if you want to seriously escape inceldom you should really consider testing your T and maybe go on TRT. Most guys are not chads (10% of men) and they cannot be shy and non dom in social settings and still get pussy its just doesnt work. The science shows that individuals who have high levels of T tend to engage in behaviors used to gain / maintain social status and another study showed that a 13 year old's t levels predicted peer reports of dominance.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347208001322

Testosterone is thought to mediate a trade-off between paternal effort and mating effort, such that males investing monogamously have lower testosterone than those with multiple partners. This suggests that high-testosterone males may have a reproductive advantage over their low-testosterone counterparts via increased mating success. We tested 119 adult males to assess whether testosterone is associated with mating success, and rated masculinity and attractiveness. We found a significant positive correlation between testosterone and cumulative mating success. There was, however, no correlation between testosterone and rated masculinity or attractiveness. This study indicates that, although current levels of testosterone covary with male mating success, this effect may not be mediated by women's preferences for visual cues to testosterone levels conveyed in static face or body features. If the testosterone–mating success link is driven by female choice, this effect may be behaviourally modulated, for example, through the augmentation of male mate seeking or courtship effort."

This study indicates that it is not the visual cues of testosterone that females find attractive but the behavior of high T men.

Another study: http://www.wellingresearchlab.com/uploads/1/3/5/7/13572010/hill_et_al._2013.pdf

" Although recent research has increasingly focused on human sexual selection, fundamental questions remain concerning the relative influence of individual traits on success in competition for mates and the mechanisms, form, and direction of these sexual selective pressures. Here, we explore sexual selection on men’s traits by ascertaining men’s dominance and attractiveness from male and female acquaintances. On a large American university campus, 63 men from two social fraternities provided anthropometric measurements, facial photographs, voice recordings, and reported mating success (number of sexual partners). These men also assessed each other’s dominance, and 72 women from two socially affiliated sororities assessed the men’s attractiveness. We measured facial masculinity from inter-landmark distances and vocal masculinity from acoustic parameters. We additionally obtained facial and vocal attractiveness and dominance ratings from unfamiliar observers. Results indicate that dominance and the traits associated with it predict men’s mating success, but attractiveness and the traits associated with it do not. These findings point to the salience of contest competition on men’s mating success in this population. "

So according to this study the dominance and the associated traits predict men's mating success but attractiveness ( rated by the females ) this suggests that women do not choose looks for STR but high T which shows as social dominance.

http://putslab.la.psu.edu/documents/Hill%20et%20al%202013%20Evol%20Hum%20Behav.pdf

The outtakes from this study shows that the ONLY PHYSICAL predictor of slaying is girth.

- Men's short term attractiveness ( rated by the women ) was negatively associated with mating success.

- Height was negatively associated with mating success(despite the women saying they prefer taller men, just as with attractiveness)

- Facial masculinity was slightly negatively associated with slaying (despite women once again saying they liked it in their short term partners).

- Girth was significantly associated with mating success - girth explained as: "We consequently standardized and summed biceps, chest, and shoulder circumference, and weight to produce the composite variable “girth” " (Just lol at gymcelling is cope)

- Perceived fighting success (rated by other men in the frat) was associated with mating success.

So remember this from the study:

"Nevertheless, perhaps women rate men's sexual attractiveness differently from how they ultimately choose. For example, attractiveness ratings may not adequately capture women's differential resistance to men's seduction attempts."

This means that women may rate logically and think that most men are unattractive but in real life this is not the case. And its not their brain that ultimately decides for who they are sexually attracted to its their pussy.

This is for the short term mating success ( which High T men care for ) so it might be different for LTR but i doubt its alot different maybe its different in the fact that they are looking for other traits because the traits high T men posses are not good for a LTR. There are other research showing that women also think that men with high T smell more attractive during their ovulatory phase and even after showing the faces of the men they still rated the high T men as more attractive. So i recommend for everyone to test your T levels and maybe inject some :)))


[–]SubsaharanAmericanshitty h-index10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Skimmed both. I'll have to take a deeper dive when I have time, but it looks like you're misreading the first paper, while the second paper is seemingly an outlier in not finding a main effect for attractiveness on mating success (the "girth" finding is consistent with previous literature though).

First, excerpts from the first paper you seem to have overlooked:

We found a small, but significant, correlation between testosterone and number of sexual partners, when controlling for age (t107 = 0.11, P < 0.05).


Attractiveness and masculinity were significantly correlated with each other (partial r104 = 0.75, P < 0.001), and both were significantly correlated with mating success, controlling for age (attractiveness: partial t112 = 0.13, P < 0.05; masculinity: partial t112 = 0.17, P < 0.01). Importantly, however, testosterone (controlling for lifestyle factors) was not correlated with either attractiveness (r104 = 0.12, P = 0.22) or masculinity (partial r104 = 0.01, P = 0.94).


Despite replicating the finding by Rhodes et al. (2005) that attractive and masculine males have higher mating success, we found no evidence that females were sensitive to, or preferred, visual cues of circulating testosterone in the male face and body, because testosterone did not significantly correlate with either masculinity or attractiveness.




Note the higher coefficients for attractiveness and masculinity (which were themselves highly correlated) when it comes to mating success. Note they confirm they replicated earlier findings they previously published -- here's that paper: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090513804000765

Attractiveness and sexual behavior: Does attractiveness enhance mating success?

Abstract

If attractiveness is an important cue for mate choice, as proposed by evolutionary psychologists, then attractive individuals should have greater mating success than their peers. We tested this hypothesis in a large sample of adults. Facial attractiveness correlated with the number of short-term, but not long-term, sexual partners, for males, and with the number of long-term, but not short-term, sexual partners and age of first sex, for females. Body attractiveness also correlated significantly with the number of short-term, but not long-term, sexual partners, for males, and attractive males became sexually active earlier than their peers. Body attractiveness did not correlate with any sexual behavior variable for females. To determine which aspects of attractiveness were important, we examined associations between sexual behaviors and three components of attractiveness: sexual dimorphism, averageness, and symmetry. Sexual dimorphism showed the clearest associations with sexual behaviors. Masculine males (bodies, similar trend for faces) had more short-term sexual partners, and feminine females (faces) had more long-term sexual partners than their peers. Feminine females (faces) also became sexually active earlier than their peers. Average males (faces and bodies) had more short-term sexual partners and more extra-pair copulations (EPC) than their peers. Symmetric women (faces) became sexually active earlier than their peers. Given that male reproductive success depends more on short-term mating opportunities than does female reproductive success, these findings suggest that individuals of high phenotypic quality have higher mating success than their lower quality counterparts.


I hope it's clear crux of Peters, Simmons & Rhodes (2008) is NOT that physical attractiveness is negligible, but instead, that it does not mediate the (weak) relationship between salivary T and mating success. It should also be noted they go out of their way to highlight the limitations of inferring too much from the correlation, given the well-known reverse causality involved in T and sexual activity (i.e., proceptive behavior and having sex raises men's T).

Other relevant considerations (from the following review:https://snelab.nipissingu.ca/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2014/10/Gray-et-al.pdf ):

Studies of men's testosterone and sexual behavior suggest either weak or null relationships, although other factors qualify these general observations. In a study of 11 couples, men's blood testosterone sampled regularly in a lab was not related to intercourse frequency across a span of three months (Persky et al., 1978). Among 33 young German men, blood testosterone levels sampled six times over a two-week span were positively associated with sexual experiences occurring around the days of sample collection (Knussmann et al., 1986). In a study of 119 young Australian male university students, men's testosterone was weakly but positively correlated with cumulative sexual experience (Peters et al., 2008). However, a different study of approximately 100 young American men found no relationship between men's recent sexual behavior and blood testosterone levels (Brown et al., 1978). In a study of Hadza hunter-gatherer and Datoga pastoralist androgen receptor polymorphisms and male reproductive success, shorter androgen receptor CAG repeats (indicative of greater “androgenicity”) predicted more children, with this link mediated by self-reported aggression on a questionnaire (Butovskaya et al., 2015).

*Should also be noted, for better or worse, that Peters (2008) used quite a bit of statistical manipulation to "control" for "lifestyle factors" purported to influence T, and that without this intervention their T-mating success correlation was no longer significant.




With the second paper, one wonders to what extent selecting participants from two Penn State fraternities -- who collectively exhibit more phenotypic similarity and more narrow variation than what you might find randomly selecting men on campus -- might have made the study less sensitive to detecting the influence of attractiveness.

Finally, it should be emphasized neither of the papers you link easily reconcile their findings with female choice in this process, with the second paper proposing multiple highly speculative hypotheses to explain their findings. That is to say, it is easier to imagine dominance/T-associated behaviors more readily manifesting as increased mating effort / higher aggression / more forgiving mate standards (for short-term mating) by men, than a mere attraction to certain behaviors over physical appearance by women (although these need not be mutually exclusive).


tl;dr: interesting Red Pills, one study reaffirms the salience of looks, the other is best characterized as an outlier.

[–]eylemao12[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for the reply, here is a study which gives substance to the theory its partly the high T which is attractive itself.

When the ratings factor and T were entered as predictors in a linear mixed effectsmodel to predict pupil diameter change, we found that change in pupil dilation was predicted by T, β = 9.52, SE = 3.63, t = 2.63, p = 0.012 (see Fig. 1). The ratings factor approached significance, β = 0.83, SE = 0.43, t = 1.93, p = 0.0611. Higher T in the face and higher positive ratings were associated with a greater increase in dilation of the pupil (relative to the baseline pupil dilation).

Quote:There has been little work to determine whether attractiveness ratings of faces correspond to sexual or more general attraction. We tested whether a measure of women’s physiological arousal (pupil diameter change) was correlated with ratings of men’s facial attractiveness.Women rated the faces of men for whom we also measured salivary testosterone. They rated each face for attractiveness, and for desirability for friendship and long- and short-term romantic relationships. Pupil diameter change was not related to subjective ratings of attractiveness, but was positively correlated with the men’s testosterone. 

I guess its debatable whether t is making the women more arroused or if its making them more threatened but whichever way it is it adds some meat to my post.

There is also the study which tested t and smell and how it affected their rating, on phone atm ill see if i can find it later.

Examined the role of personality (e.g., hypermasculinity, sensation seeking) and physical individual differences (e.g., testosterone, physical attractiveness) in predicting 215 male university students' number of sexual partners. Significant zero-order correlations occurred between number of sexual partners and sensation seeking, hypermasculinity, physical attractiveness, and testosterone. In addition, multiple regression analysis revealed significant increases in prediction with an additive combination of these individual differences, and some of these individual differences (e.g., sensation seeking) contributed a unique variation to the prediction of the number of sexual partners.

Another study showing what i believe plus the only personality character T consistently correlated to is extraversion

Extraversion, a personality dimension associated with sociability, activity and dominance, predicts a man’s mating effort in various human populations. At a proximate level, individual differences in extraversion are likely to be mediated through testosterone, a strong hormonal correlate of men’s reproductive effort. However, the rare attempts to address this question have all been conducted in populations with low-fertility schedules, thus limiting the generality of the results. Using demographic, questionnaire and hormonal data from a high-fertility polygynous human population of Senegal, we first show that extraversion, a personality dimension predicting men’s mating behavior in this population, is associated with inter-individual differences in testosterone profiles, with men in the top quartile of extraversion distribution having 29% higher testosterone levels.We then show that personality profiles for neuroticism, openness and agreeableness are independent from testosterone levels. Since extraversion is the only personality dimension predicting men’s mating and reproductive success in this population, we suggest that variation in testosterone levels is primarily relevant for personality traits related to reproductive effort. The results have further implications to discuss possible evolutionary scenarios for the maintenance of variation in personality traits.

This further shows the best predictor of mating success is not looks but social dominance and high rank.

Sorry for any formating and other errors on phone atm.

[–]eylemao12[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Something elso to consider is the evolutionary aspects of this and how high ranking baboons( i think ) give birth to children with lower levels of cortisol and i can dig up some studies on cortisol levels and social rank.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

im going to fucking roid

[–]hello2378785 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm seriously considering this.

What is there to lose at this point?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Apparently it is extremely safe if used properly with regular blood work. People who get harmed from roids are stupid, or normies(hey take this dude if u want to get ripped) or extremely unlucky like .05%

[–]hello2378781 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. Currently I'm thinking of just using moderate doses of testosterone and nothing else. If kept at sane dosages, to essentially just get yourself to the very top of the normal range with like 200mg/week, it seems it should be essentially side effect free. From what I've read it's mostly the super duper retard strength high-powered androgens like trenbolone and such that cause really bad side effects for people. I have no intentions of turning myself into a giant roid monster, I want to reap the psychological benefits like increased confidence and aggression (Something I sorely need) while looking good but not so good that it's obvious that I'm on roids.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I want roids for the psychological effects to but whenever i say that people normally just threaten me and tell me to kill myself. Very strange behaviour.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

any updates brother?

[–]hello2378780 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Still doing research. I'm pretty sure I'll do it within a couple of months honestly, but I need to figure out how to to it without fucking myself up too bad. Still haven't figured out how blood tests and such can be dealt with in my country. You?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

hello brother, i ordered a sarms cycle, apparently i can drop a couple % of bodyfat and gain 9-12lbs of lean mass in 6 weeks doing a octarine cycle. With mild ai and pct.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I want to but i am so tired and work all the time like 90hrs+ that by the time i get home i collapse in bed. Most likely a 300 or 400mg test with all the anti esteogen shit then do the recovery stuff.

[–]ConnorGracie2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My rapper name is LowT

[–]shetoldmeto801 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok, this is anecdotal but, I noticed no change after unwittingly upping my testosterone a couple years ago (I achieved it by accident by mixing two non-hormone prescription drugs that happen to have an increase in testosterone as a side effect when combined)

I had to stop one of the two and now I am back to baseline T.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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