TheRedArchive

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DISCUSSIONThank you for existing RPW. (self.RedPillWomen)

submitted by rodareb

I am pretty new to the pill-party in general, but I've always known which one I'd take (though it has taken me awhile to reach this level of objectivity).

I have just spent a lot of time not being who I am - I was very attracted to the "good girls gone bad" thing in my late teens and really did believe that being a rebel was all party, loose sex and being able to pull off a FWB deal. I gave this up recently when I recognised that I had broken a very warm, long term relationship with someone I truly trusted. It would probably not work regardless, but I regret not treating us with more respect. I have used the past year and a half examining my own values:

I believe the "sexual liberation" of women benefit more men in general than it does women.

I hope a new wave of feminism will actually recognise femininity instead of trampling all over it/strive to be masculine.

I want to be a stay at home/part time mom - I believe that connection will be important for me to raise a healthy and focused family.

I want to be a "prize" - I want to know someone defeated every obstacle in their way to be with me.

I am romantic enough to make myself sick.

I enjoy/miss spending time with women who acknowledge basic biology and social structures.

I thrive when submissive and humble, it's who I am naturally if my boundaries and needs are met with respect by someone I trust.

I don't believe (edit: I live in as a citizen of the average western society) in rape culture - I do think how I carry and present myself publicly matters as a method of prevention.

I am pro-choice (within reason), but it breaks my heart how ignorant some women can be regarding this highly sensitive issue. It is really not my body, my choice - it is choosing not to bring a human being into a messy existence; one that is simply not ready to provide a good life for them.

There is more, but this is at the top of my head. I am writing now because I'm becoming increasingly isolated - I very rarely meet women (or men) that is ok with my idea of femininity and structure. I see women as strong BECAUSE we are nurturing, loving, caring, emotional, analytical, humble, empathic, vulnerable - not despite. It just seem so counterintuitive to strive to be equal - we simply aren't. People choose to do what they want in life and I want them to be able to, but I am grateful I respect myself enough to not let the shame of "not striving for independence" get to me anymore.

I believe we have a lot of work to do if we want to (re-)establish the good dynamics and pacts between the sexes.

Oh, and tinder is THE WORST - rest in peace courtship.

​

Edit: I really do not believe in rape culture (as portrayed in media) - rape is something that happens in a culture and regardless of culture and it is sadly a part of nature that we have yet to eliminate. What do I mean the term "rape culture" represent - an over-fixation with punishment of the receivers (men) of female sexual freedom as an effort to clear ones name. I DO NOT CONDONE RAPE - but I have a need to shed light on the fact that rape can take place in many grey areas and that it is pretty ridiculous to scream rape in almost every case of "I wasn't really sure, so I just went with it even though I had't made my mind up" or "I had a change of mind and he didn't sense it" or "I don't know he probably fucked me but I have no idea I was so wasted". Some women really call this rape, I have heard these things first hand. If there is a culture - someone is just bound to feel left out, so they got "raped too" because they wanted to be part of something. I really hope you understand this as an effort to stop devaluating actual, traumatic rape - and focus the attention on those who need it; victims that was not exposed to culture, but actual violation of their body and autonomy that would be so much easier to judge and address if every hungover girl with regrets could just move on in silence.

Edit 2: Honestly I never intended this post to be a discussion about what rape and rape is not - I really just wanted to share my views and values as a woman. I'm all up for discussion, but this was a post I wrote to praise RP community for opening my eyes. We all have different values and I wish I could have made it more obvious to you that I condemn all/any acts of sexual violence and I find it sad to have to defend myself on this matter. I just have a different opinion on what violence means than most feminist and used a term that has been thrown around for a while - without not considering it's true meaning (that I have had explained by many of you, thank you) something I am sorry for.


[–]goldensurrender9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree with you OP, it's isolating... I am still trying to navigate socially now that I have changed a lot of viewpoints. Really though I didn't change, I just allowed myself to be me, but that's not very popular these days. What's hardest for me right now is finding women who don't want to just complain about their boyfriends/husbands, or who aren't single and drinking/fucking like they're young men.

I'm not very keen on going to a conservative leaning church, but I've started to wonder if that's where I might find more women who aren't on the feminist and Marxist train. I'm not super right wing or anything either, I just want to spend some time with women who want to think for themselves and actually respect and appreciate men/masculinity and true femininity. I want to be able to explore femininity without other women thinking I'm a doormat, not smart, or "not living in my power".

[–]NeedzMoarCoffee0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I lost my faith a long while ago but I’ve been so isolated that I have decided to go to the local church once I have settled in the new house (just moved). Not to worship or become a believer, but for the community aspect. I hope to find like-minded women there and hope to be involved with my community more. Unless you go to a very flamboyant church, most of the people there will not be pushy with the faith part. I wish you the best of luck!!

[–]rodareb[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Cool, I considered it for community myself - I left my faith at around 14 and live in Norway, which is very atheist and also very left winged - most church goers here are quite old. So, people here usually listen to science and actually have a very uncomplicated relationship with gender - except my generation. Being young and leaning toward truth before wants and wishes is a long shot most places, though. I do wonder what an alternative would be here. As the full embrace of RP is still shaping me I do think I'll eventually meet people the more I allow myself to present myself as such. Idk, I'm pretty new to being myself heh..

[–]Hammocknapping19 points20 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe in rape culture - I do think how I carry and present myself publicly matters as a method of prevention.

How would you suggest girls and women carry themselves, to prevent being raped and sexually assaulted by family members, close family friends and people in positions of power around them?

Personally, I’ve never been raped and would like to ensure I prevent it happening so please let me know. I’d also like to let my friend who was raped by her uncle at age 8 know what she did wrong in presenting herself.

Thanks :)

[–]rodareb 1 points [recovered]  (23 children) | Copy Link

"publicly" - this is not suggesting anything about closer relationships/incest, which happen and I despise just as much as anyone.

Respect yourself - acknowledge that your sexuality will attract attention and do not make stupid/naive decisions (i.e playing some truth or dare shit half naked alone with 5 horny men might burn you, shit like this happens all the time). The truth, no matter how uncomfortable, is that predators/rapists/degenerates exist and probably always will - just take some fucking measures to avoid them. I'm also trying to expose the women that tease just because they can and take advantage by making men sexually frustrated to get attention - it is just not a good idea.

[–]Hammocknapping6 points7 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

You can’t have it both ways. Rape is rape. It does not matter who the defendant is (if we ever even get to the prosecution stage, which is rare). If rape is sometimes okay, because of who the defendant and/or victim is, then how do we teach little boys and girls that are being raped by their uncle that they did nothing wrong.

There’s a comment below that’s already given a broader overview of what rape culture truly is, so I won’t repeat it, but you expressly stated “I don’t believe in rape culture.” Rape culture is there for the 3 year old girl whose dad passes her around at parties, it’s there for the woman whose husband sells her body for drugs, and it’s also there for the college student who repeatedly said no, but whose boyfriend pushed through it because he read a thread on Reddit that no means yes.

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (20 children) | Copy Link

Rape culture is a thing, depending on what country you’re in. Are you in Saudi Arabia, or maybe India? Then you’re right - rape culture is definitely a problem, because women are often treated as “less than” or as property. Are you in the U.S., Canada, or most European countries? Then rape culture just doesn’t exist. Yes, sometimes people fall through the cracks and get away with terrible things. However, overall in our societies rapists are shunned and publicly shamed (as they should be). They can’t find work, they can’t find a partner or have a family, they can’t make friends. I’m not saying this so as to pity them, but to point out the fact that we largely do NOT accept rapists as “normal people” and refuse to let them participate in our lives/communities is proof that there is no rape culture. That phrase implies the culture as a whole reveres rape, or at the very least acts as though it’s a normal part of life. I really can’t think of anyone I know who believes rape isn’t wrong or would ever associate themselves with a known rapist. There are plenty of scummy people out there who will try to act like these things aren’t wrong (like the examples you gave), but there are plenty of criminals who believe illegal/immoral/disgusting things aren’t “that bad” and do them anyway. People are robbed daily - do we say we have a burglary culture? Or a kidnapping culture? Or a drug culture? No, because it is understood that the general population/average person does not partake in these activities, thinks they are wrong, and thinks the people who do commit these crimes should be punished. Same with “rape culture”.

[–]Hammocknapping5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

My friends uncle is still a welcomed member of the family. Her family chose to disown and shun her instead of him.

I have a friend from college who was raped by her ex-boyfriend after she ended the relationship with him in-person. She went to the hospital after, had a rape kit done, but the police wouldn’t process it or investigate because she didn’t have any bruises at the intake interview. That ex-boyfriend has a job and no one in the city he lives in now knows about the rape.

When my husband’s apartment was broken into, the police didn’t refuse to file a report and investigate because he didn’t have a security system.

We both have different experiences. We don’t brand rapists with an “R” on their forehead. If the rape is never reported (like the majority of rapes) no one knows.

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

I’m not saying I’m not sympathetic with victims of sexual abuse - in fact, I was molested by a cousin of mine and the rest of my family acts like it never happened. I completely understand where you’re coming from. But this is all anecdotal and can’t be used to accurately describe an entire culture’s/country’s attitude about it. Obviously, if the rape isn’t reported then no one will know about it. Giving the example of people being accepting of others who they have no idea is a rapist isn’t a great way to make your case, to be fair. Why wouldn’t they accept them if they have no idea what they’ve done? Most normal people reject people who are even just accused (not even convicted!) of rape. There are exceptions, like I said. My family and the friend of your family being some of them. But I’m talking about overall, because rape culture refers to our country as a whole. Just because we have some personal stories or have heard things in the news that fit the narrative we want doesn’t prove having a rape culture. In fact, the very reason those stories are so shocking and terrible to us is BECAUSE it is not our normal.

[–]Hammocknapping2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Or maybe, it’s because it’s not talked about and it’s considered taboo. While I’ve only share a small sample of the stories I’ve heard, I know dozens more.

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

Again, just because you have personal stories doesn’t prove anything at all about a country. It’s like someone arguing that since they don’t know of anyone that has ever been raped, it must not happen. Your personal experience is not always reflective of most peoples’ experiences. I don’t know how you can say it’s not talked about/is taboo when stories about it are headlining all the time - think #MeToo. Or Blasey-Ford/Kavanaugh. In fact, the large majority of people chose to automatically believe the women even when they were incapable of providing any evidence of a rape beyond their story. What kind of a “rape culture” does that?? In popular culture today we are ALWAYS talking about rape. Colleges make you take a sexual violence prevention course and before you are even an official student, you attend orientation where they talk about consent and rape etc. I could agree that at one point in the US, Canada, Europe we had rape culture. But not anymore. Discussions about it are everywhere. It’s not taboo. Go to the Middle East and speak to women there and you’ll discover what it truly means to have a rape culture and for it to be considered a taboo subject.

[–]Hammocknapping1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I would be happy to cite statistics and studies. Would you find that beneficial?

Maybe it’s because of your age (18), but the ability to the current atmosphere is new. It was not like this even when I was in high school just a decade ago. From a sociological standpoint, this is not yet a solidified part of American culture.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I heard about rape culture and the 1 in 4 stat when I was in HS more a decade ago. How do you suggest that it's a new phenomenon?

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

I would actually be interested in reading about it if you’re willing.

I’m almost 20, by the way... haha.

[–]imanewwoman5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Where do you thing the prevy uncle meme came from? Definitely not from Saudi Arabia or India. So I’d think twice about that “rape culture doesn’t exist in US , Canada and Europe”.

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh yes, because a meme proves everything!

I’m not denying that rapes occur. I’m denying that our culture accepts or celebrates it. There’s a big difference.

[–]imanewwoman6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It was an example of how relatable it is. Because it’s a prevalent thing in families around the world. My intention is not to keep arguing, by the way, so I won’t gwt involved in a sarcasm duel.

I work on stats and reports of these kinds. We also study the phenomenom around the world.

In England, 2/3 sexual abuse cases are perpetrated by family members and close friends. Source: Children’s Comissioner for England. 85% go unreported. 12% adults 16-59 had experienced sexual assault by the end of 2017. Source: Office of national statistics.

In United States 30% of child sexual abusers are family members. Souce: Crimes against children research center, National center for PTSD. I have plenty more stats in developed countries but right now don’t have time for citing.

Rape culture doesn’t mean explicit celebration on rape... It means also that families choose to silence victims, it means that authorities don’t take reports seriously or that prosecution isn’t as harsh as it should be, and many other societal attitudes and behaviors surrounding sexual abuse and rape,

[–]rodareb[S] -3 points-2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, this has been my main issue with the term - what it means to the society I am part of. Obviously there are forms of rape culture, but I do not live in one.

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yep, exactly. I get what you mean and I think the people getting upset with you would too, they’re just misunderstanding what you meant by it. It’s a pretty sensitive subject for most, understandably, so hearing someone say they don’t believe in it immediately causes people to fly off the handle.

[–]rodareb[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I am starting to regret mentioning it. I have lost my temper one to many times on this thread already. I should probably have been waaay clearer in what I meant before posting. Thank you for seeing me!

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Of course! Honestly when I read your post I was like “Did I write this?!” Haha. I’ve never seen the community so petty over something so small, so just so you know, this isn’t typical for this subreddit. Hopefully it won’t scare you away!

[–]rodareb[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I've been snooping for a while, never saw this! I was seriously convinced most of you all had the same understanding of the term as I..

I love debate, so I'm not going anywhere, but I do wish my post had taken the peaceful path I planned for.

[–]blickerbloo 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Honestly I would have thought the same before seeing the reaction to this post. Glad to hear you’ll stick around!

[–]party_dragon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You’re being disingenuous. Intra-family rape does not represent the majority (or any, really) of the cases picked up by the media, and doesn’t feature prominently, or at all, in the criticism of men currently popular with the mainstream media - their criticism of our society as “rape culture” focuses mainly on universities and voluntary consensual casual encounters.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sexual liberation hasn't benifited men at all. Statistically the men are having less sex which correlates with the rise of incels and the like. Before sexual liberation a lot of those men could have found wives and girlfriends.

Sexual liberation doesn't benifit either gender long term.

[–]rodareb[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, I definitely agree with you! I notice I have left most of my points in the post a bit too open for interpretation, my bad.

I simply refer to the fact that men are in general benefit in one way ore another from hookups. Here I am comparing genders in general - as women more often than not experience these loose encounters as a burden when she realise (again and again) that she did not gain investment, in contrast men (most are able to get laid occasionally) seems more in the "meh". An emotionally fulfilling sexual relationship is the holy grail for almost every human, no doubt.

[–]RussianAsshole 1 points [recovered]  (28 children) | Copy Link

Sooo if a woman gets raped, she should’ve dressed differently or “presently herself” differently to prevent something that is done involuntarily? As if rapists only go for women who present themselves a certain way? I was wearing a fucking turtleneck and jeans when I was violated and didn’t even flirt. I was actually starting to give this place a chance, but....wow. There’s not agreeing with feminism and then there’s being someone who just parrots BS for approval from low quality men. Hopefully you don’t actually think that way and you’ve just been listening to too many right-wing men who try to pass their love for sex as love for women.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There are some terrible things that happen in the world no matter what you do. There are also people that put themselves into terrible situations and then cry that it was inevitable and there is nothing they could have done to prevent it. Like say a sex worker who was raped. There is no way that could have been a predictable and avoidable outcome now is there.

[–]dangernoodle880 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

How about lets just show that sex worker some sympathy for the fact that she just went through something very traumatizing and leave it at that. I'm sure she knows she put herself at greater risk and doesn't need us to sit on our high horses and inform her so that we can reinforce all the guilt and shame that she probably already feels. Then we can pat ourselves on the back for being edgy and helping rape victims by being so brutally honest.

Like jeez, I thought this sub was about culturing femininity. Having compassion for others, nurturing, creating warm spaces. Let's leave all the bitching about rape culture/"cold hard logic" for the men...

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She has a lot of "fuck yous" and condescension for the OP. If she was making her point in a kind fashion, I'd do the same. Why defend the person who started the bitchiness?

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

It is apparent you are triggered by this post but I think you are misinterpreting what she meant. Taking precautions doesn't gurantee bad things won't happen or that bad men don't exist. However, you can make choices that get you in bad situations multiple times like girls who choose to go to frat parties on repeat and get super trashed while wearing outfits a stripper would wear. Or women who want to walk around with their cleavage pouring out of their tops but feel offended when an unattractive man takes a look at the boobs they are presenting. It is like how if you park your car in a bad enough nieghborhood, someone may break in regardless of of your doors are locked but statistically leaving it unlocked makes it a better target. I have been sexually assaulted in the past but part of working through it in therapy was learning how to make better life choices to avoid the people and places that make it easer for that to happen to me. It doesn't negate responsibility from the man but it is a mentality that gives me more control over my life because no amount of "teach men not to rape" will change the fact that at least 1% of the people out there are sociopaths who don't care what the law says. The path to safety is not a message that removes all responsibility for me and leaves me reliant on the good will of people who may not have any.

[–]dangernoodle881 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just don't get why people care so much to prove this whole "rape culture doesn't exist" thing. What does it accomplish besides make women who have been raped feel guilty and ashamed ON TOP of the trauma of being raped? Women are already taught to make safe choices. We're given pepper spray as Christmas gifts. Things can get pretty ridiculous in extreme online feminist circles, but I've never seen a real life woman suggest that dissolving rape culture means that women should stop making safe choices, and walk around alone at night dressed provocatively because it's our feminist right or whatever. The vast majority of women take steps to protect themselves and teach younger women to do so too. It's more about AFTER someone gets raped, let's not blame them because that's really just an asshole thing to do. I'm critical of feminism but there are just so many more productive discussions to be had that doesn't center making sure traumatized victims feel bad about themselves in the name of pushing a narrative.

[–]goldensurrender4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Excellent response

[–]rodareb[S] -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Thank you! One would almost think biological response does not exist and that a man always can keep a cool head and a zenlike presence when presented with boobs to the face. I just think it's sad that the misunderstandings that happen at parties etc. are even compared to the really horrible assaults that some women (and men) have experienced.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

It depends on the man.

If you read between the lines, carefully, of various accounts of rape, what you find is beta males. Men who women do not find attractive. Men for whom sexual attention from women is scarce.

Most women who are raped are raped by someone they know. Often what happens is that an unattractive male thinks he has an opportunity (due either to wishful thinking, a misinterpreted signal, or being led on for some other purpose), then tries to seal the deal, is declined, and cannot bear to see his "chance" slip away. He is tempted to think he can still seal the deal if he only pushes harder.

The stereotype of the rapist is the self-centered, entitled, privileged fratboy dudebro... but this is the exact opposite of the case. Because women, like it or not, find self-centered, entitled, privileged men attractive, and men like that have options.

Such men can extract sex simply with the implied threat of withdrawing their attention. They don't have to strongarm anyone.

If you want to avoid rapists, beware of thirsty nerds, not dudebros.

[–]Vellore9921 Star5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you read between the lines, carefully, of various accounts of rape, what you find is beta males. Men who women do not find attractive. Men for whom sexual attention from women is scarce.

Do you have numbers to back this up or are you speaking anecdotally?

Because most of my experience with sexual assault and rape occured when I was at a particular college that is now infamous for it. A disgusting number of my female colleagues were assaulted while I was there, and it was almost always by the cocky football player type who felt he could (and most often did) get away with anything.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I cannot supply details of things that were told to me in confidence.

However, I can say that there's no meaningful statistical data on "alpha" versus "beta" males in rape, because alpha and beta are metaphors, and the statistics don't and cannot measure for them even if they were trying, which they aren't.

I would, of course, be wary of any set of anecdotes, and equally wary of statistics whose manner of collection you don't know the details of.

[–]Vellore9921 Star0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So anecdotes, then. Same for me.

[–]rodareb[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I agree - this is a reason why the concept of rape culture just doesn't sell it to me. I don't think dudebros is the ahem shit, but I have seen too many cases both in my local community and the general west of dudebros being accused of rape they didn't commit - it is just very easy today to target this specific group. This is why hook up culture doesn't work - dudebros getting falsely accused of rape because of bitter girls who believed they had a shot at more, but all they got was sex.

I just wish more women would acknowledge that this happens a lot. In my hometown (30k) there were three incidents (that I know of) of false rape accusations with economic gain as motive. One of them targeted 5 guys, "gang rape" - she even pronounced to her girlfriends at the party that she was going to have sex with them to gather evidence before it happened. My sister was one of those who picked it up, those guys are her friends and she warned them before she left the shit hole - and well, they were warned, so there you go more nuances. They were all perfect offenders - all dudebros just trying to get some. The case is still ongoing, I really hope the truth wins.

Yeah, I don't really care for "nice guys" whom make up a big part of rapists. Beware.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I carry a gun everywhere I go. You can bet that if someone comes after me I am going to do whatever it takes to defend myself.

The point here is not "carry a gun" (though I don't know why you wouldn't, seeing as you've personally witnessed the consequences of not having one), the point is it's your responsibility to defend yourself because you're the one your well-being matters to. Someone else might protect you by stepping in if necessary, but you can't assume that.

It may not be your fault if someome tries to rape you, but it is your responsibility to take care of yourself (in any situation). It's no different than wearing a seatbelt. If someone rear ends you it's not your fault, but you're still taking whatever precautions you can to protect yourself against that possibility.

[–]Hammocknapping7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Should we give 8 year olds guns as well? What about “rape whistles” or is that part of rape culture, I’m not sure?

What should a 3 year old boy do when his dad’s friend rapes him and then tells him if he “tattles” that he will kill his entire family or be taken away from mommy and daddy?

What level of defense is sufficient? If you scream, but no one hears you, then did you fight hard enough? What about if you try to kick and scream and it doesn’t work? Was that enough?

What if I was so terrified my body shut down and I couldn’t defend myself? Should people believe me when I tell them I was raped, or was it not rape because I didn’t defend myself?

[–]Guywithgirlwithabike3 Stars0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A little late to the discussion, buuut:

  • I first learned to operate a firearm at 8, as did many, many, many people throughout history, so it's not that far-fetched. Many cultures around the world employ child soldiers with AK-47's, and we all know how other cultures should be respected and accepted equally. A bit hyperbolic maybe, but better safe than sorry.

  • What about rape whistles? Oh, those things are dangerous. I'm a firm believer in rape whistle control and universal whistle background checks.

  • The rest of your responses seem to be hysterical spiraling. There is nothing wrong with recommending that people take reasonable measures to defend themselves, and your response makes you sound like you are pathologically opposed to being a sane, mature adult with a well-developed sense of responsibility.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The point here is not "carry a gun".

[–]Hammocknapping2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I asked about a lot more than guns. I gave an example of an alternative that is often handed out at educational trainings regarding rape prevention, “rape whistles.”

If not guns, or rape whistles, then what? Should all children be taught self defense in school? What about disabled students? Remember, not everyone is able bodied and can physically defend themselves. Should these students be taught verbal tatics to disarm their would be rapist? Can you talk someone out of raping you?

If I should be doing everything in my power to protect and defend myself, I need to know what the threshold is.

[–]FleetingWishEndorsed Contributor7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

First of all, just because there are certain people who can't be responsible for their own well-being, doesn't mean that the people who can be responsible for their own well-being shouldn't take responsibility for their well-being. The comment that you are replying to was intended for a grown women. While someone might ultimately be unsuccessful in protecting themselves, that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.

Second, what you are really objecting to here is giving responsibility to people who can't handle responsibility. For example little kids don't know how to defend themselves, or even know that they should. That is why for the protection of kids, we don't give them the responsibility, we give the responsibility to their parents/caretakers.

Their parents are responsible for keeping their hands away from light sockets.

Their parents are responsible for keeping the cleaning supplies locked.

Their parents are responsible for making sure they don't put anything in their mouths they are not supposed to.

Their parents are responsibile for teaching them how to cross the street safely.

Their parents are responsible for teaching them to not take rides from strangers.

... And it's the responsibility of the parents to be sure that no one takes advantage of their kid.

But just like defending yourself, or wearing a seatbelt, this is not always 100% effective (even if the parents are trying in good faith), stuff gets missed but that is the best effective defense a kid is going to have.

Now, I will be the first to admit that parents and caretakers often do not take on this responsibility. They can be negligent, and sometimes even the perpetrators. However I don't have a solution to stop people who shouldn't be parents from becoming patents, nor do I have a solution to stop people from raping others, nor do I have a solution to stop people from rear ending you.

All I'm saying that as much as we can implement defense strategies we should. Because it can be effective in protecting people. Just because it's not a effective solution for everbody (or doesn't even necessarily succeed when used) doesn't mean it doesn't help. And it's the best thing you can do, personally in your own life, with the most immediate impact is protecting yourself... Rather than just waiting around hoping someone else will stop it from happening.

[–]pearlsandstilettosModerator | Pearl[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is possible to make your argument and still remain polite. Comment removed. If you'd like to edit away the nastiness, let me know and I will reapprove it.

[–]WhisperTRP Founder3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fluffing yourself up like a wet hen and clucking angrily does not add weight to an argument. Try to focus on the sense of what you have to say, because moral outrage, real or feigned, doesn't carry any water here.

As to what you have to say, this argument is based upon a confusion between the concept of justice and the concept of responsibility.

TRP and RPW are both based around the notion of strategy rather than morals. We do not focus on what "should" happen to us, or how we "should" be treated. We ask instead, "what can I do to make good outcomes more likely in my life?".

We could all sit around and have a very non-controversial discussion about how rape is bad, and it shouldn't happen to people. But how would this help anyone? Empower anyone? Protect anyone?

It wouldn't. Because "rape is bad" isn't something you or I can do. It's not a piece of advice. It doesn't help.

"Avoid sketchy situations, don't sexually tease beta males, don't party with large groups of men not personally known to you, take advantage of your right to bear arms"... these things help. Do they protect you absolutely. No, of course not. Hell, you could walk outside right now and be struck dead by a falling meteor. Shit happens.

But it is deeply hypocritical to pretend serious concern about a danger, while refusing to take steps to defend yourself, because you "shouldn't have to".

People who don't want to take responsibility for their own safety aren't actually afraid; because when people are actually afraid, there is nothing they love more than to be empowered to protect themselves.

[–]dangernoodle880 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you! I was thinking the same thing but I'm glad to see dissent in the comments. I come to RPW to feel less isolated in my beliefs about relationships, but stuff like this just shocks me. I wish we could just intelligently disagree with certain aspects of modern feminism rather than going all manosphere/I'm-not-like-other-girls.

[–]rodareb[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

You really are taking this out of context. I too have been violated by a low quality degenerate while wearing "appropriate clothes". I have moved on, but will NEVER excuse hanging out with a friend as me being provocative. Rape is very much a nuanced issue - but in this era of sex, drugs, party, exposed skin and primitive urges - it does not surprise me at all that the lines become blurred as much as they do. Rape culture is not actually about rape - I don't sympathise with party-girls shaking their bare tits screaming sexual harassment at any boy who goes for a grab. I think you should consider rape -culture- as something different; a fantasy phenomenon that gives it's opposers the idea that after regretting sexual/promiscuous behaviour/being drunk and really fucking horny makes it okay to ruin the mans life (just to avoid responsibility). RP is protecting women by encouraging men and women to accept their roles - any man who simply takes sex is a beta faggot if you ask RPMs. So yeah - RP is about becoming aware of the biological guilt trip we females experience after a loose encounter and thus be able to separate regret from rape. Oh, and honestly, if you just read what I said: it matters - I never said it was even close to everything.

[–]imanewwoman9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You said clearly “I don’t believe in rape culture”. You’re confusing the term rape culture.

Listen, I am 100% in favor of women taking precautions to avoid rape. I myself go out with a taser and a swiss knive in my purse and won’t be changing that. I agree that there’s a culture of victimhood that has gone so far to suggest that even if you don’t verbally disagree, men should know where to stop and magically guess what consent means for you.

But what you describe as “rape culture” is NOT IT. You are messing up the meaning of words. Rape culture is... a culture... that condones rape....

Women get kidnapped and raped just because existing, around the world, throughout ages. The best part - you don’t even need to leave your house! Fathers, brothers, uncles and cousins molest girls (mostly) and also boys - that’s rape culture. Pretty common by the way. In my country most % of child abuse happens from family members, people just don’t like talking about it. Then the family doesn’t believe the victims. That’s rape culture.

Rape culture has existed pretty much throughout all history. Marital rape being implicitly allowed (not prohibited by law) in most of the world until recent history - that’s rape culture.

Authorities gave short sentence for three rapists of a girl in a bar that left her beaten up, bleeding from vagina an anus, drugged and unconscious BUT gave longer sentence for a common burglar that stole a fridge and a stove - that’s rape culture.

Women try to report, authorities don’t let them. There was this case about a girl that disappeared in the hands of a psycho pastor. Mom went inmediately to report, and police didn’t let her file a report because “she‘s probably gone with her boyfriend to have a good time. Don’t worry ma’am”. Boyfriend was there as well trying to file a report with girl’s mom. Girl was responsible. christian, conservative... She was kidnapped while going to work. When they discovered it was the pastor, who kidnapped raped and killed her, nobody in the community believed the girl’s family - or the police reports. Some started saying she probably seduced him and made him angry. Another example of rape culture.

Priest ties, electrocutes and abuses 10+ boys in local church 10 years ago. Journalists report the cases about a year ago because one victim came out. Other 10 men confirm it’s true but didn’t report it for different personal reasons and confusion. Friend’s from churh say they also heard the stories 10 years ago but didn’t want to say anythingto avoid getting in trouble. One mom tried reporting 10 years ago but the process was expensive, painful, nobody believed her , and the priest blackmailed her with moving influence to leave her unemployed for life...so she gave up and just left the church with her boy. Today, people on the internet say that they’re all liars and that the victim mom’s was also in it to sell her boy’s body to the priest in exchange of money. That’s rape culture.

[–]rodareb[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

That certain religious communities have a culture for sexual violence and rape is nothing new, I can stand behind that example. Though - that is not what rape culture sells it self as - more often than not it is isolated to campuses and partying.
I simply don't identify rape culture in big society - and as many feminists push that agenda I relate to the term as what it is known as.

[–]imanewwoman3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The religious examples are two that I have worked with in my job. But the dynamic is the same with regular rapists. Victim reports rape, nobody believes her. She drops it there.

You can’t change a word’s definition because you feel like it means something different. The definition of rape culture, is a culture that normalizes rape. Period.

Maybe you’re skeptical of the current predominant debate in your society’s media about that topic. Or you are skeptical of certain ideas surrounding consent. Maybe you could be calling it a victimhood culture, or whatever.

But you’re not using the terms correctly. It’s like saying you don’t believe in corruption because you don’t like the way media portrays it.

[–]rodareb[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I really am though - I've been pretty clear by now that I don't believe I live in a rape culture - I don't believe large society is one. That is all I meant, I just made a the careless assumption that all of you here were agreed with the term as sjw propaganda - as this is the only place I've ever heard it mentioned. I can say I don't believe in the way media portray it - that would be correct. If media decides to announce that corruption is high school bullying I wouldn't believe in that specific kind of corruption. Catch my drift?

[–]dangernoodle880 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're going to base your concept of feminist ideology around how you see it portrayed in extremist SJW propaganda, then you'll always win. But you're not really making a point. You're just demonizing the other side so that you can easily disagree with it. There are tons of cogent arguments in this thread about why there is a truth behind the argument that society at large does not handle rape in a just way, and normalizes a culture that puts more women, children, and even men at risk for rape. I don't identify with feminism myself, but I have half a brain and the compassion to realize that changes need to be made in our society to protect future victims.

[–]xoxuv0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I want to be a "prize" - I want to know someone defeated every obstacle in their way to be with me.

It means that you aren't relationship material.

You only talk on what others should do for you, and don't mind on what do you give to the other. That’s extremely self-centered and egotistical. You do not only want other people to serve you, but you narcissistically demand them to do extreme effort for no reward.

You think of relationships as putting obstacles and hoops for the other to jump. That’s extremely entitled and unsatisfactory for the other person.

What do you bring to the table? Your looks? Your body? You lose it every day. If a man has to do all the effort, and some men can, anything he gets is entirely his merit. He can take you to bed, because that’s what you force him to do, but after sex, he owes you nothing.

A man owns the product of his work. He owes it to nobody else. You make yourself only a sex object.

[–]rodareb[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

First off, you sound very bitter, I'm sorry if you've been hurt.

Did I not mention wanting to build a life with someone? Did you not understand what I meant by being submissive and humble? I want to become a good mans wife and lover, I want to invest my life into raising our children and make a home. I know my worth, what I am capable of - try to acknowledge that a good woman, someone who consider herself more than a sex object, needs a man to demonstrate his abilities as a partner for life. The man that wants my loyalty, time, love and care, my body and beauty as long as I have it, has absolutely no choice but to prove his worth. So, no, I don't consider myself relationship material - I'm wife material.

And you my friend, should consider going your own way.

[–]xoxuv0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

First off, you sound very bitter, I'm sorry if you've been hurt.

There is a red pill post somewhere on how to answer the "you had been hurt" generic stuff.

If I see it, I give you a canned answer.

[–]rodareb[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm looking forward to it. Have a lovely Easter.

[–]rodareb[S] -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

If you read this through you would know that is not my view - really just stuff I've picked up from other red pill communities. I do not use that language myself - read before you answer please and please do not assume anything about my mental state - I have moved on in life and all is well, thank you for your concern.

[–]thatbadlarry7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

“Not your view, just stuff you’ve picked up from other RP communities.” Uh, bullshit. Own your words and take responsibility for what you say even when the response you get isn’t what you hoped for.

[–]girlwithabikeEndorsed Contributor-4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You shouldn't get so snarky when you are misreading her words. She flat out isn't saying this the way you are suggesting. Unclutch your pearls.

[–]thatbadlarry6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Telling people to take responsibility with the words they use is me clutching my pearls? Lol got it.

[–]rodareb[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Seriously, just read the goddamn comment.

[–]thatbadlarry4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I read all your comments and mine still stands.

[–]rodareb[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So you got that "beta faggot" was an example of many RPMs way of describing certain people and that I myself never did? Good. I have no need to discuss this further if you are not able to understand context.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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