TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

83

I’m convinced that this is the most difficult post I’ll ever write.

 

It will quite possibly also be the longest. As usual I am a wordy motherfucker so buckle up.

 

I have often used my posts for journaling and introspection and this one requires some additional background for most of you to understand and perhaps give me some actionable advice after you are done calling me a faggot.

 

That said, I’ll try to be as sparse as possible so if there is more that needs to be explained please ask.

 

Stats: 41 married 19 years, 4 kids, 5’11” 190 lbs, 12-13% bodyfat – bench 225, ohp 135, DL 325, SQ 275

 

MRP for 1.5 years

 

Dread Level 6-7 I am fit, attractive and well dressed.

 

And, if you didn’t already know… I’m a Mormon. Born and raised.

 

Yeah I wrote this shit : https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/a3692n/a_note_for_the_latterday_saints_mormons_and/

 

Here’s my problem, and I’m going to offend all my fellow Mormon MRP brothers when I say this.

 

It’s bullshit.

 

Now two days ago I got to this point and had a whole cringeworthy, beta-as-fuck, bluepill DEER heavy victim puke all composed in my mind.

 

You see, my RP progress has been stalled. It was my own fucking fault.

 

What happened?

 

5-6 months ago, almost immediately after writing my dissertation on Mormons and the Red Pill, after duking it out in the responses with one notable prick who thought to enlighten me to all the faults of Mormonism, I went through a faith crisis of my own and realized a few major things.

 

Things that were parallels to the Red Pill and my experience with it. You see, I had discovered bits of the red pill a couple of years before finally swallowing the damn thing. I had spat it out as incompatible with my religion and being a good Christian/Mormon.

 

Once I realized that the red pill was my only path to self-actualization and that I couldn’t deny the truths of intersexual dynamics any longer I immediately set out to shoehorn the red pill into my life, and my religious upbringing/beliefs.

 

Hell, it worked at first. The LDS church talks a hell of a good game when it comes to traditional family values and often gets criticized by the feminists for being “patriarchal” etc.

 

Redpill fits even though most of the guys in the church are still blue pill plowhorses with their wives running the show from atop their marble pedestals.

 

I could be better. A warrior-priest. Faithful to his religion and to masculinity.

 

There is hope in the core doctrine… at least I believed that.

 

Since that time the LDS church has made a hard left and embraced more feminism, liberalism and blue pill positions and convinced me that they don’t really have men’s backs on anything at all. They just want to be popular, fit in and keep cashing the maximum number of donation checks.

 

10% of everyone’s income for life. I’ve willingly paid it since I was 8 years old. Hundreds of thousands of dollars over my lifetime.

 

Just like taking the red pill, there are a ton of things that had previously been red flags that I spat out and set aside in order to maintain my cognitive dissonance. Once I saw the cracks for what they are, I realized how little they had my back at all, changing teachings all over the place for better marketing optics, then gaslighting the rank and file that we have always believed certain things.

 

Things that we called anti-mormon lies a decade ago are now admitted because with the documentation readily available they can’t hide anymore.

 

In doing so, they made a liar out of me when I defended their positions and teachings on my two-year mission and in countless conversations.

 

I won’t get into the details here, but the LDS church has severe problems with honesty about its own past history, origins and beliefs. It is run as a corporation for maximum profit and the image is finely polished by lawyers and marketing firms. As times change, they triangulate like any good business to the most virtue signaling and profitable position.

 

If there was objective truth, that wouldn’t happen.

 

If there is a God, and I’m still willing agnostically to believe there is, I’m now convinced that he isn’t found in an organized church on the earth today, and there certainly doesn’t exist a man on earth who has the authority to dictate my behavior in His name.

 

Just like with redpill. I’m taking my balls back.

 

So why the stall in my progress?

 

Well, it’s taken a ton of time and research to process and figure this shit out. During that I’ve lost confidence in my worldview and frame.

 

Worse, my wife is still a true believer. Any criticism of the church results in fingers in the ears “la-la-la I can’t hear you” So I STFU and don’t bother DEERing

 

It’s patently obvious that I’m still a shit captain, because she is not following my leadership and doesn’t believe or respect a fucking thing I say. I’m the bad guy.

 

Mormonism is complicated, with a hierarchy of priesthood authority and an emphasis on couples who stay faithful together get to stay married forever after we die. Those who leave the faith are abandoning their family in eternity even if they want to maintain a relationship.

 

Apostates are ostracized, pitied, seen as lazy, deceived, sinners etc.

 

Once my retraction from the church goes public, the neighborhood gossip will immediately turn to the favorite cause du jour. “What’s wrong with him? Is he cheating on his wife? Is he addicted to porn? Does he gasp drink coffee or beer?”

 

My family will be a project for church leaders, and since I will have stepped away, a degree of my authority within the household will be cucked to local priesthood leaders as we will no longer have the blessings associated with having a “worthy” priesthood holder in the home. (as my priesthood will be null and void)

 

My wife will have the local bishop to turn to for moral support, and the moral high ground in bravely raising her children essentially as a single mother even though… I am right-fucking-here.

 

That’s the dynamic. It’s fucked. But it is what it is.

 

Coming forward to my wife about having questions has created a high degree of tension and dread, and not the good kind.

 

So why is this not more of a cry-fest victim puke? Because I fucking finally did what the sidebar tells me to do and took measures to make the stay plan the same as the go plan.

 

She threatened me with divorce being on the table if I choose to leave the church. I STFU and went on with my day. Next day I stopped being a pussy, called an attorney and sat down for a consultation to find out exactly how badly I am going to get raped if she follows through.

 

I had been purple pill justifying not doing this for ages.

 

Guess what? Aside from the fact that we would probably have to sell our house and destabilize the kids, financially I would likely be slightly BETTER OFF than I am now.

 

What’s more, I would have legally mandated half say in major decisions regarding my children’s healthcare, education, and religious instruction. That’s fucking easy mode compared to passing shit tests against the weight of her moral church high ground.

 

Major surprise to me and game changer. Now I have true outcome independence.

 

Time to weaponize that shit.

 

So I do my best to go Sun Tzu with it. “When you are weak- appear strong. When you are strong - appear weak”. Suddenly her shit tests are 100 times more hilarious. The fear is gone again and more than ever, I can truly give less fucks. I am less angry and more fun. But I take no shit.

 

Now maybe things will sink in and I’ll get the main event I deserve.

 

Here’s why.
I took a few notes during my meeting with the lawyer. Just basic stuff. Left them in my truck between the seat. Didn’t tell mommy I was doing it, didn’t leave them out as a covert contract threat for her to find and come running back, but didn’t give a fuck either. She almost never uses my truck and rarely rides in it.

 

Turns out we did have to swap vehicles and she decided to clean my truck for me. She read my notes and called me in tears.

 

I kicked ass and maintained frame to a higher degree than I have since my confidence got broken by my faith crisis.

 

Simply told her that I take threats seriously and educated myself. She is free to do what she likes. I don’t care if she chooses to stay in the church. I won’t be told what I have to believe, and I won’t be threatened. Ball is in her court. Ended the call and went back to work.

 

Her response to the dread so far has been underwhelming. She’s done her best to flip this into a lecture about how she can’t be with someone who is half in and half out of the marriage. Blah blah blah about how she is expected to change for me and be my whore and walk on eggshells or I will just leave.

 

I’ve chosen not to engage other than reminding her that she made the threat.

 

Unfortunately, AWALT revisionist history makes me the aggressor. No fucks given. Stop engaging and STFU.

 

In addition to being a shit captain it is obvious that I am still her beta provider, since all she has been doing is looking at second jobs. Its already about the $ and lifestyle loss for her.

 

My plan is to make my way forward in the way that I see fit and now free of having my life held hostage by her or any church.

 

If she wants to come along for the ride, she is free to do so. She still adds value for my kids and potentially for me, I still give 4.5 fucks. Half of one for her and one for each of my kids.

 

She has power over one-half fuck. She can take that away, but I won’t be zeroed out.

 

I am the prize.


[–]CryptoManbeard29 points30 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I have a good neighbor friend going through the same thing. If people aren't familiar with the LDS they may not understand the dynamics. When you give up your church you become a pariah to your own family. That takes courage and I wish you the best on your journey. It sounds like you're doing things right even if you have some setbacks.

Staying together in that situation is hard. You have some serious road bumps coming either way.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 10 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. I know it is a hard road. I can't live a lie. Once I swallowed the red pill it seems truth is the only thing I really care about. No matter how much it hurts.

I know I still have blind spots and incorrect beliefs about things, but I'm seeking them out.

[–]DoDisciple1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

On this front, I'd start Dreading the church and building your life outside of that social circle. I'd imagine that aside from the ramifications on your marriage, leaving the church would mean the loss of nearly your entire social circle.

What are you doing to make the stay plan the go plan for your social life?

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good question. I don't see my social life being damaged much. I have many non Mormon or less believing friends. Always have. I don't drink so I don't have that kind of buddy dynamic with anyone, but my good friend at my work is nonbeliever and a redpiller, and many others, including some secret non believers I recently discovered among our shared social group.

In essence, the girls are all in and some of us men are out or mentally out.

Anyone else I lose, I will know was never a true friend anyway. No loss. The Church has this weird fake friendly aspect that I will be glad to be rid of. Some people are your friends because they think they can convert you and that it is their duty to God to do so.

When they lose that hope or authority over you they get passive aggressive.

I'll be fine, but my wife would lose some friends for sure. They teach the true believers that those who leave the church are radioactive lepers that can spread the disease and take you to hell with them.

[–]Goobergus_Gubbins0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I tried to ride the fence and keep my old church friends, but ultimately it didn't work. Evangelical Christianity is just as insular a community as LDS (I think) and I am now an outsider, and thus not to be trusted. Just the way it is.

[–]Reject444Grinding7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good for you, man, if this has helped you and is making you happy. We've discussed this before, and as you know, I have also been a Mormon from the time when I was born. In a way, I never fully bought in--I appreciate the church and its teachings for the value it brings into my life, but I'm realistic (I think) about what that value is and where my boundaries are with it. I didn't go on a mission (sacrifice 2 years of my life in some third-world shithole? No thanks). I don't pay tithing. I don't make the church the center of my lifestyle or worldview like so many others do. I actually believe that much of the core gospel is true (for a host of reasons that I won't get into here), but I don't believe ALL of it blindly, and I don't define myself or my life through those beliefs.

In a way, I think I've been lucky in that I've always been able to distance myself a bit and take the good things that I want to take from church membership without much of the downside. It has given me a strong and healthy moral framework and helped me wrestle with questions about the fundamental purpose of life and other metaphysical issues.

Lately I've been wondering about my kids. My wife carries tons of sexual shame and hang-ups, largely because of the way she was taught in her youth by the church and her own parents (who are pretty devout). This has messed up her enjoyment of sex throughout her life, and has obviously created big problems for me as her husband as well--and now that I've found MRP and grown some balls and a willingness to stand up for myself and the life I want, it puts our entire marriage and family at risk of dissolution. I don't want my daughter to face the same twisted outlook my wife has, though we are unquestionably better parents than my wife's parents are and have been very careful about being more sex-positive when we talk to our kids about it. I think the church is in some ways a healthy environment for kids and gives them a mental anchor on which to base their own sense of morality and ethics, but I do wonder if the dangers of the culture--which I have largely avoided or overcome while still being a respectable member of the church--might outweigh the benefits for young children. I don't have an answer or resolution here, just noting that it's something I've been thinking about, and I fully understand why you've taken the course of action described in your post.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can appreciate a lot of good things that came from growing up Mormon. I did do the mission 2 years of my life, on my own dime and every other thing they asked of me. When I didn't I felt guilt and shame.

I'm glad you have been able to find nuanced truth in it. I can't. Once they teach you that the truth is black and white, and then you find out about all of the coverups, gaslighting, dishonesty, and flexibility of position for popularity/financial gain you have to wonder where the lying stops and the truth begins.

It's untenable for me.

And the sexual shame, hangups, etc. that my wife and I both brought into the marriage suck bad. I get it bro.

[–]hystericalbonding4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nice post. A new starting point. You now have the potential to establish your frame. You've taken the practical steps to determine your options, and it sounds like you're willing to follow through.

RPeed is shitting on you, missing the relevance of the religious stuff to rule zero. This is the red pill - your reality, your sexual strategy. There has been a fundamental shift in your reality, which opens up countless options in sexual strategy.

She may try all kinds of crazy shit to subvert your influence on the kids.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yep. weaponizing the kids is one of her favorite things. It's always "her and the kids" against big bad me. Thinks it lends weight to her arguments. It's laughable.

Her threat to divorce included the fact that by not believing I was "interfering with her goals" (her mission and vision is still more important than me) And that she didn't want the children taught the wrong things.

Well guess what? Pull that divorce rip cord and she still doesn't get control over what I choose to teach the kids. In fact, she gets less.

[–]amalgamator5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Dayum - I’m rooting for you. As a Mormon, I can relate 100% with everything you said. I’m lucky my wife has responded well to MRP so I’m not about to blow everything up (yet).

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks man.

[–]xender1910 points11 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I was also born into Mormonism though I made a full recovery from it at 14. Many of my friends have gone through similar things. Some of them got their wives out and they're ok today. Some of them are always on the edge of divorce. Men recover from Mormonism at much higher rates. Really sucks for Mormon women like my sister who have no real place to go because the men have many options and she expects to marry up. I really hate the culture where everything depends on living a lie. Best of luck to you.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Thanks man. As with redpill, there is an anger phase centered around how long it took me to figure this shit out. I am the ultimate slow learner.

[–]SorcererKingMRP SAGE - MRP MODERATOR5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I am the ultimate slow learner.

No. You just bucked off a lifetime of social conditioning. That is not a small thing.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. I feel like I’m learning to walk and talk all over again.

Complete rebuild.

“Why do my eyes hurt?... you’ve never used them”

[–]vplatt0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Substitute 'brain' for 'eyes' and you're spot on. I went through this from a different angle, but it was painful too. I went for the "gradually strangle it until it dies with a whimper" path, but same result. I feel like a closer knit community like the one you're in requires more of a "rip off the band-aid" approach, but that's just speculation on my part.

All that in mind, there is no need to go fully hostile on LDS at this point. You can emphasize that "it's just not for you" and "you've been shown a different calling" if you want to shut them up with some implied revelation. I mean, that's not entirely wrong either. Reason is one of the ways the universe communicates with us; never mind that it precludes you from really taking your notes from LDS, Book of Mormon, elders, etc.

Compassion for your wife is really key here. Community is hugely important for anyone, and more so for women than men I think. You'll want to get her involved in new social circles as you're essentially attempting a sort of social transplant here. It may help to start with other LDS defectors initially; IOW folks you may have shunned in the past.

Best of luck!

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Thanks.

While there is personal hostility here as I vent my sense of betrayal with guys who get it I am not openly hostile. In fact if a guy can make the church work for them or add value to their life, great. Wish I could. It would be easier.

But I’d rather have truth than comfort.

You’re right about community. As a high value man I make my community from the people I choose to let into my inner circle. I am the prize. I have good friends and I can make more. Community for an alpha is merit based.

Women have a different social dynamic and sense of community. Add social controls engineered to work on women and through women to their beta husbands and only the sociopaths break free.

Ah well. Duly noted.

[–]vplatt0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Add social controls engineered to work on women and through women to their beta husbands and only the sociopaths break free.

This is where the RP community has a blind spot I think. It' s not just that society is feminized as it works against the liberty of women just as much as men. Sure, women get greater latitude in accepting or rejecting men in socially acceptable ways, but women suffer big limitations in the trade-off. The main beneficiaries of this are those who would remain in power over us. That includes churches, but also governments, unions, and cliques, clubs, and groups of all stripes.

You don't have to be "sociopathic" to break free though. That's the rhetoric of slave-masters who wish to shame us. You just have to choose your masters with a clear head. Unless you're going to go off by yourself into the wilderness, you will choose them after all, and I think most people cede the choice to their family and traditions simply because they don't want to think too hard about it; and it is hard. In the end, we all have our master, even if it is only the clear blue sky above us and nothing else. The rest CAN be up to you, and that is the original red pill.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

All sociopath means is you don't play by the rules. It's a title and word that is steeped in negative connotation because it sounds like psychopath.

Psychopathy itself is a dark triad trait and useful in measure.

Sociopaths are the nonconformists to the current mainstream feminized reality. We are sociopaths for taking the redpill and embracing masculinity. Feminists were sociopaths when they broke the old paradigm.

Leaders in government, business and religion are almost universally sociopaths because they are willing to break or define the rules to exert power over their environment.

The ribbonfarm analysis in the earlier post by u/black_jack_davy is excellent at describing the subtext within the LDS church and organizations in general. it is a long read but worth it if you like the deeper psychology and systems of control.

In short, you don't rise to the top by being a high level true believer, you rise to the top by being a sociopath with the appropriate connections and willingness to embrace the game.

I am a sociopath of a different stripe by refusing to play by their rules and now playing my own game. Embracing game in what I consider a healthier and more honest and genuine manner. But that is subjective to me.

A MGTOW sees our game as dishonest or useless and is a sociopath of his own stripe.

There is only shame in being a sociopath if you care enough about their game to buy into the shame. In which case you are still playing their game despite your protests to the contrary.

[–]vplatt0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I understand that it's necessary to ignore norms / break the mold in order to play by different rules. I wholeheartedly agree. That said, sociopath is a negative word indeed because it does actually mean this:

"a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience."

This doesn't describe someone who's playing by different rules. It describes someone who is not playing by ANY rules because they lack any conscience. As you are "Embracing game in what I consider a healthier and more honest and genuine manner" I trust you're NOT advocating for that. It may even appear to some in the CoLDS that you've gone sociopathic because they won't understand your new rules, but that's not true.

At any rate, I would be careful describing yourself that way, or just don't do it. It sends the wrong message I think and it's only going to make people uncomfortable with no real reward for doing so.

I do get where you're coming from though. You'll find a new center soon enough I think. The hard part is just letting go of the past, accepting it for what it was, and being at peace with that. The anger will, with some time, become acceptance. You had to come from somewhere after all, and I'm assuming it could have been a whole lot worse.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough. Thanks for helping me process this.

[–]ShotgunTRP2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Mate youre breaking away from a lifetime of brainwashing potentially setting your entire life up in a blaze because of what you believe. This is one of the most difficult things any person can do. Do not beat yourself up in anyway. This is the ultimate demonstration of frame that born raised atheists will never understand.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Heard a great quote today that boiled it down. "The properties of water were not discovered by fish"

I've been unable to examine things from the outside until things broke. It's crazy.

And yet... I cannot and will not turn away from my principles. I don't care if it hurts.

[–]bliceroquququq4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sorry man, rough time for you with a lot of changes all at once. Give yourself some room to figure shit out and don't let internet strangers opinions weigh too heavily on your decision making process. If it were me, I'd think about what kind of peace I could make with the church while being a non-believer in order to maintain my family life, assuming I still wanted (not needed) to be with my wife and see my kids every day.

LDS has always been a fascinating thing to me. On the one hand, the Mormons I know are almost all universally kind, decent, loving, family-oriented people with strong community values. On the other hand, the entire religion is made up of complete nonsense from a well-documented bullshitter, and its main purpose is to grow its membership and collect 15% of their incomes for life. They are selling inner peace for a fee, that's it.

But then again, all religions are bullshit. Mormonism, like Scientology, just happens to be recent enough that its claims are easily disproven, where traditional religion's root are so far now in the past that some can still pretend there was once a magic man, born of a virgin, who was the literal son of God, and raised people from the dead, and if you'll pledge your life to him, he'll save you from eternal damnation, or whatever the fuck.

To each their own.

[–]helaughsinhidden1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

well-documented bullshitter

.....but the seer stones??

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

good advice, thank you.

[–]black_jack_davyDREAD Pirate Roberts5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have been where you're at (except for the divorce threat, but w.r.t. Mormonism).

First off, bracket truth claims, period. The way the notion of truth is used in LDS circles is incoherent, and deciding things like whether or not the church is true, or what happened historically, actually need to be set aside. Instead, use the heuristic of utility: is what a church teaches pragmatically useful for your ends, in the context of your mission?

Sooner or later, every man arrives at a state of arrested development. This isn't directly due to religion per se —that is, all human institutions do this to their participants—but totalizing religions in particular can make this a struggle for men. When you awaken to it (often by realizing that you aren't making progress), it is disturbing and upsets your view of many things. Sometimes—eventually—for you to grow in the directions you need, you will have to step away from institutional forms including religion.

Mormonism as a totalizing religion has defined your worldview in deep ways that it will take you decades to identify. This means that you will continue to have a relationship with the church whether you like it or not. You're in an anger phase right now, most likely, so keep that in mind before making irrevocable decisions or burning bridges.

I've been what you would call "intellectually out" for half a decade after a faith crisis ten years ago, but I still attend. (I don't participate much but I'm a butt in the pew.) Why? For the developmental needs of those under my aegis, namely my wife and children. It provides my wife with a social circle which is moderately purple-pilled or at least antifeminist, and it provides my children with a framework for thinking about personal and spiritual development. Just because I've outgrown those particulars doesn't mean that they have. If my wife outgrows it, I'll revisit the question. If my children want to go a different direction, they'll have that option at 18. Mormonism works reasonably well for the components of my mission that involve my family: the heuristic of utility, there. (If you find yourself needing to chat or vent about post/Mormonism, hit me up in DMs.)

While your wife has to make the decision whether your relationship together is worth more to her than your participation as a priesthood-holding member of the church, otherwise the ball is still in your court. You have to be more alpha, which includes providing an overriding vision to her, than her church leaders. This isn't actually that hard in most places due to the random selection of church leadership.

Your leadership role in your family is going to change. Thousand-foot rope and all, but my TBM (true-blue Mormon) wife follows my lead because I've shown that I am trustworthy, that I am a slow (∴ thoughtful) but nearly unquestionable decision maker, and that I have an overriding powerful vision for our—my—family.

You provide that. If you are taking away the totalizing structure, which it is absolutely your right to do as patriarch of the home, you have to replace it with a new compelling framework. That's your vision, and it includes your vision for her. Not a covert contract, not an overt contract, not a contract at all, but a vision, a story, a narrative that helps her make sense of her world. She needs that from you.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. Need to work on developing a vision to lead her. In many ways the church made for a lazy crutch for that.

Shitty captain checking in.

Problem I have with using church teachings that are useful for my ends, is that when those teachings change in order to make it more marketable, suddenly I'm the asshole for espousing what was taught.

Furthermore, it is using the crutch. I'm no longer my own mental point of origin. So once the teachings change, any authority over my own mental model that was based on those teachings vanishes.

Now I can appreciate the good the church has done in my life too, but the costs are high.

[–]_-resonance-_4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Jesus Christ... you are my goddamn fuckin hero.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

name is alphasixfour... not Jesus Christ... :)

[–]_-resonance-_1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I was just worshipping The Man. You seem cool though 😇

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks bro. if I was Jesus I'd be braiding a whip and flipping tables over right now.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There you go! Follow His example and it is hard to go wrong.

[–]_-resonance-_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great scene.

[–]SBIIISAHDs are the epitome of sex3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Religion, politics, sports, media, social media. Five of the biggest things that people waste their lives on. All of them are utterly pointless and not only do they add little value to your life, they actively detract from it. As soon as you enter into any of these worlds, you are entering their frame. The less time you spend on any of these things, the better for you.

I used to be a big soccer fan. It was like a religion to me. I grew up watching my favourite team - Manchester United - transform under Alex Ferguson from being an average club to the greatest soccer club of their era. They won every trophy imaginable and did it consistently over 15 years. When he retired, things went south and my interests waned. I still watch them from time to time, but have very little passion for the sport these days.

A couple of weeks ago, I went to a bar to watch the Champions League final. It was full of Liverpool supporters. When they won, the place went mental. Grown men hugging each other, some were so overjoyed, they were in tears. I sat there looking at them, thinking, "what a fucking waste of emotion". Most of these guys were 30+, out of shape and wearing replica football shirts. I doubt any of them have played a sport in over a decade. Yet here they were, getting emotional about a bunch of seriously overpaid sports stars winning a metal cup.

I've never felt so detached from the sport in all of my life and - on reflection - I'm glad of that. I no longer need soccer in my life. Nobody does. Nor do they need religion, politics, sports, media or social media. These are things that fill gaps in people's lives where there shouldn't be any gaps.

Religion doesn't care about you. It only cares about your money.

Politics doesn't care about you. It only cares about your money.

Sport doesn't care about you. It only cares about your money.

The media doesn't care about you. It only cares about your money.

Social Media doesn't care about you. It only cares about your money.

Learn to live life without these things, to fill the gaps with things that reward the time you put into them.

[–]tap09885346 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Alphasixfour,

If you aren't familiar with the concept of noetic structure it is essentially a mental map of your core beliefs often represented as a spiderweb with a ball at the center and layered beliefs wrapped around it going outward. The outer beliefs tend to come and go (i.e. you think Bill is a great guy... then you find out he eats small children.) with minimal impact to the structure.

Beliefs that are deep at the core of structure are almost impossible to let go of because they rip apart most or all of the web. These are the beliefs we rationalize or hold onto in spite of overwhelming evidence, because they have become intrinsic to our identity. Even if they aren't religious, they tend to take on a religious-like fervor and have a component of moral righteousness, such as people's belief in catastrophic global warming or socialism.

When new core beliefs are adopted that result in tension with other core belief's, it essentially makes you feel crazy all the time. If your entire structure gets shattered, it is very difficult because you no longer have a foundation for any moral imperatives. (i.e. Why shouldn't I cheat on my taxes, or cuckold my wife, or become a crime lord with underage sex slaves?) So in persuading someone such as your wife, it is usually hard tear something away without replacing it with a coherent alternative for continued adherence to moral imperatives ( which are essentially common to the human experience.)

The other major problem is anger. We have a tendency to seethe with rage at the beliefs that hurt us. While this rage is motivating it is remarkably unpersuasive, and makes it extremely easy to ignore any argument you present.

Women are incredibly hard to persuade, and are more persuaded by your approach, which should be calm assurance and friendly willingness to engage in dialogue without judgement. Having spent some time arguing with Mormons, I can tell you what I have found to be the most persuasive, and that is primary source materials, and old church materials. Don't use any current official church materials, because these are constantly changing and do not even reflect church teachings from a few years ago. Another good resource is one of the honest histories of Joseph Smith that includes warts, published by real scholars at BYU.

But just obtain a some older Mormon texts of church teachings from 1925 or 1950, and see if your wife will read them with you. Also Brigham Young had people follow him around and write down everything he said, because he was the appointed prophet and his words were the word of God. The LDS church does not publish these writings, but they are still available. And much of the things he said are deeply disturbing and upsetting to every Mormon under 60 that I have shown them to.

One of the strangest things about the LDS is the total disconnect in belief systems between older and younger people in the church, because of the constantly curated changes in doctrine and teaching coming down in revisions from church management.

Older Mormons tend to believe in the perfection of Smith and Young, while younger ones are more commonly willing to admit Smith was at least partially fucked up for stuff like wife-stealing and marrying a mother and her daughter. But if you read enough older church material you quickly find that even thinking badly of Smith was a hellfire offense.

And of course the surefire logical coup de grace is always the Book of Abraham. Smith was wrong about everything historical or verifiable that he said in the BoM, but these arguments have been twisted in circles by church apologists leaving the average mormon struggling to make sense of it. But BoA, is a remarkably clear cut historical test of Smith's abilities as a prophet, that is almost impossible to discount. It not only shows his utter failure as prophet, but it completely proves his character as a charlatan. Furthermore the church canonized his translation of the Egyptian text for years before hieroglyphics were deciphered with the Rosetta stone, and in 1966 were excited that the document would be translated by independent scholars because it would confirm the veracity of Smith's claims.

If you go through this stuff, it is all pretty self-damning. Many years ago, when I used to take the time to go through this stuff with people, it would often end with the person admitting that nothing Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said were true, but that those things didn't matter because they didn't get personal confirmation from the Spirit that those people were real prophets, just that the LDS church was true. At that point there wasn't anything left to discuss, because they had already been convinced and were just grasping at straws.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yep. Awareness of the warts, especially coming from church materials and the gaslighting claiming that we never taught differently is what drives me away.

It's not the crime, its the fucking coverup.

As a 41 year old gen x-er I straddle the old guard beliefs I was raised with and the exposure and availability of info in the digital era. I think that is why it is so hard. I can't take the nuanced millennial stance because you would have been burned as a liar if you took that stance even 15-20 years ago. Guess that's my fault for having a good memory and paying attention.

I own the 50+ year old books. Wife prefers the safe sanitized modern narrative and doesn't read or ask questions. Whatever, not my job to convert or deconvert her.

And yes, my mental map was tied into this since birth. Lots of anger and unravelling of a spiderweb. Some of it hurts more than taking the red pill.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

not my job to convert or deconvert her.

You sure about that? I mean ultimately after you have unscrewed yourself.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure, my example to lead her and the family. Ultimately if it is still providing value to her and not damaging my relationship I am fine with her believing. That said, chances are that is an untenable position. But I do need to unscrew myself first.

[–]helaughsinhidden6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

she can’t be with someone who is half in and half out of the marriage

She threatens divorce and THEN has the balls to say that!? The hypocrisy is so hot my the screen is loose on my phone!

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You expect a woman to be self aware enough to recognize her own hypocrisy? LOL back to Rational Male volume one for you bro.

[–]helaughsinhidden5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just admiring her gall Broseph Smith ;-)

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know. Makes me laugh in retrospect too.

Can't wait for her shit tests tonight.

[–]epicaricacy12Married7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It's a cult. Glad to hear you are getting out of it.

[–]FRedington3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Indeed!
As with all religions, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." -- In my eye, no religion passes the sniff test.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockPlaying the lead roll3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep. The burden of proof rests on them, not me.

Did tons of research on comparable Methodology and Jesus.... not talking bout just one video, but months worth of research... did it for me. Doesn’t pass the sniff test.

[–]hglonjic0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's not about "proof" man. That's what faith is. Belief without proof.

[–]FRedington0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Belief without proof

Is the same as Delusional Psychosis.

[–]hglonjic0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I guess for me, it's an understanding that I don't understand everything. And a greatfullness for all of the beauty and goodness that I've experienced.

[–]vplatt1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely. That experience of awe is also the root of all the wonder that drives science. But the idea that one person is going to be your main interpreter for that in the form of a prophet or savior is ludicrous. As far as I can tell, that only happens when people don't want to really have their own religious experience; when they've been cowed into ceding it to someone supposedly more worthy. This almost always comes about as a power move by someone trying to use that experience to build an organiaation which will give them power.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. thank you.

[–]Drummerboy860[🍰] 5 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

10% of everyone’s income for life. I’ve willingly paid it since I was 8 years old. Hundreds of thousands of dollars over my lifetime.

Ahh, yes - the Sunday Shakedown.

When you look into Old Testament tithing principles, you will find that the congregation brought resources to the storehouse (grain, wine, etc), and not money. Those resources were then distributed out to people who actually needed it - the poor and starving.

I am a Christian, but I also see most churches today for what they really are. A social club that centers around money.

That being said, I hope things work out for you and that you don’t have to divorce.

In the meantime, dive deep into the teachings/words of Jesus on your own time. You’ll find that He was very unlike many of the people you encounter in church, today.

God used a crisis of faith in me to bring me closer to Him than ever before.

[–]ArborioRice2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

A social club that centers around money...He was very unlike many of the people you encounter in church, today.

That was a particularly hard pill for me to swallow; as with everything else reality doesn't align with high minded ideals delivered as infallible truth and once you see it you can't unsee it. And people wonder why church attendance is dropping and young folks in particular are refusing to participate.

[–]Drummerboy860[🍰] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It baffles me that evangelicals are puzzled by dropping attendance in church.

Most churchgoers go each week just to not be shamed by others. You dress up, (which makes no difference to God), stand and sing the same songs, hear the sermon, and then go home, ready for a nap.

It never feels like anything actually gets accomplished. Thanks to the internet, I have access to a million sermons from thousands of pastors, anytime I want. People don’t need to travel to a building, anymore.

Also, many have forgotten the purpose of the Sabbath. It is a day of rest, period. Sabbath was made for man, as Jesus says. We are to relax, enjoy our homes and family, and recharge for the rest of the week. Waking up to an alarm, wrestling with the kids to get them ready, trying to not be late as you battle morning traffic, and struggling to try and keep your kids quiet during church is often anything but rest.

People are also sick of the expected rules they need to follow. Judgement over having a glass of wine, voting for the “wrong” candidate, watching a questionable TV show, etc. Adults don’t want to feel like they’re still in school, with administrators watching over them.

Jesus was hated by church officials. He healed on the Sabbath, drank wine at times with dinner, and spent time with “bad” people. They eventually demanded his execution, in brutal fashion.

If he returned today in the same manner as before, church officials would crucify him all over, again.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

First they would demonitize and ban His social media accounts l

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

All of this is so true. I have 4 non-cooperative kids and church at 9AM sharp.

Used to get pissed when my wife was slow getting elaborate girl's hairdo's finished and making us late. So much better now that I can laugh and tick off more and more time I don't have to spend in Church.

[–]Drummerboy860[🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I go to church when I feel like, and I don’t go if I don’t feel like it.

Intermet blogs by pastors and congregants will always argue “church isn’t about you. It’s about serving God and others.”

Well if church isn’t about me, that means it’s not about anyone else who goes, either. And that means it’s about God. But God says that Sabbath was made for man. It is a gifted day, for me.

Who do I listen to - people, or God? It’s an obvious choice.

Church attendance is not mandatory.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

After being taught my entire life that we do welfare better than any church or government in the world (after all we tout it in the media endlessly ahem...-something there about doing your alms before men... what do I know?)

Imagine my surprise to find out that less than 1% of church funds go to the poor, the church has over 30 billion dollars in the stock market and likely over 60 billion in business holdings, convenient, so they can say that money spent on things came from investments and not tithing (what money did you invest?) Owns tons of land, a shopping mall etc etc etc.

Church leaders get all expenses paid and a huge stipend even though I unwittingly lied for them and told everyone on my mission that we have NO PAID CLERGY.

Convenient that the Church closed their financials in the 1950's as soon as they started running in the black.

1% to the poor?

Fuck that. I don't even have a retirement. Could have done a shit ton more with my 10% of gross salary for my family and for people in need instead of financing your investments.

Yes I am in anger phase. Yes it is a sunk cost.

[–]Drummerboy860[🍰] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You got fleeced, no doubt about it. But it isn’t entirely your fault. Churches teach the 10% of your money myth almost everywhere you go.

This Christian beautifully explains why it’s a crock.

God wants us to help the poor by providing them with things that they need. Food, clothing, clean water, and shelter, if possible. Giving my money to others and expecting them to do good with it does not interest me, anymore. Misuse of funds always, always occurs.

As for Joseph Smith? Sheesh - what a scam artist. Golden tablets from heaven were given to him, which conveniently allowed him to marry and bang I think 16 women, simultaneously. Those golden tablets then magically disappeared, and a large number of blue-pilled robots bought every word he said and built a religion around it.

At least you’ve woken up. We both know there are good people in every church, but the “hive mind” that occurs when people gather in large groups leads them to abandon all judgement of their own and let “officials” boss them around.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Agreed. On top of all of it, you have to be a current tithe-payer to go to the temple, which means you have an eternity with your family held hostage. No temple- no eternal marriage. Oh well, guess I get to game and date multiple women for eternity then. Sounds fun.

As for JS. 32 women is the last official count. Guess what. When I was a kid, even as a missionary, we were taught that he only had one wife. Brigham was the polygamist and Joseph never got around to it before he was murdered.

made a liar out of me.

Various church movies like Joseph and Emma, Legacy etc. make it out to be a romeo and Juliet monogamous love story.

Let alone him marrying sisters, and mother and daughter, a 14 year old and at least two women who were already married to other men. All of these facts the Church itself now quietly admits.

Fuck I was down with the culty weirdness all of the apologetic gymnastics and and magical worldview if we would just fucking OWN IT. Instead we get trickle truth and marketing.

And that is why I don't believe. If you had the truth you would present it fearlessly and fuck the critics.

Burned by your own spin.

Mitt Romney is the human embodiment of the Mormon church. Presents well, perfect image, then flip flops on everything to get votes and be liked. He's the annoying beta dumbass in Junior high School that will say anything to be popular.

[–]Drummerboy860[🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

32??? Holy, moly! And yet Mormons seem to look to JS as their “guy” rather than looking to Jesus.

Joseph Smith was a liar, and was a slave to his dick. Jesus had ultimate self-control in all areas.

Billy Graham said it best: “A Christian is one who has had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ.”

That’s what people need today - not more evangelical nonsense and hypocritical pastors.

[–]useful_stranger2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh man. As an outsider, I have a lot of admiration for Mormons. When the shit hits the fan, it is people like the Mormons that will make it. Mormons have a very strong sense of community, they help each other, they are prepared in case something really bad happens, and have provisions in their basements for the next six months. Reminds me of the Swiss, who supposedly have a requirement by law to have a nuclear bunker in their basement. Some Swiss have even converted those obviously under utilized facilities into pizza ovens. But I digress.

You are a smart, savvy individual. You are now deep in this community, and hooked-up both on earth (and eternity supposedly) with this woman that you met when you were ~20. A green 20-year-old, impressionable, and fully buying into all of the teachings of the cult.

So at this point, you have some serious choices coming up. One is to blow up the ship, take the highroad, deal with the brutal realities of divorced parents. Use the full extent of the law in your favor. It’s going to suck, and you may still be conflicted. There’s going to be a big part of you that’s happy that you are out of it, don’t live the bullshit life anymore. Live live fully on your terms, which is very satisfying. But another part of you is going to constantly be wondering if perhaps that community you lost was worthwhile after all.

Your other choice is to become a wolf in sheep‘s clothes. On the inside, fully embrace that it is bullshit. Then turn around and feed that very bullshit to others and take a leadership role in the church, take a leadership role in your family, learn to take nothing personally, to joke about it, to basically use religion to your personal advantage. Do your thing, take care of yourself as a man, and outflank anything directly thrown at you to challenge your authority. Brainwash yourself fresh, by really focusing on all the good things that Mormons do. Start doing those things if you haven’t done them already. Recognize their practical value. That’s what matters. Doesn’t matter so much what you believe. Then overtime you can begin to use bullshit, and earn credits with the community as I think you have until now. Basically arrive at it differently, for your own reasons, and let them come up with theirs.

On that path, overtime hopefully, your wife becomes the biggest slut for you to enjoy. You must be a sneaky fox. Not an obstreperous rebel.

Either way, it’s going to be hard, now you are awake. You just need to decide what software you want to operate on and execute.

The only way is through. As Ryan Holiday says the obstacle is the way.

Lastly, understand the value of spirituality for women. It is much more powerful, and much more important to women than it is for men. You basically need to dominate psychologically your woman, before you dominate her in bed. And before she submits to you in bed. And in order to psychologically dominate your woman, you need to feed her need for spiritual leadership. I suspect at this point your best bet to do that is by remaining in the Mormon church. She’s clearly not ready to give up her heavily invested life in this entire community in order to be with you.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I appreciate Machiavellian-ism, I really do. I know guys like that in the church. And I just can't fucking take the hypocrisy. Call me autistic, immature, whatever. I am so much more self respecting when I am true to myself and genuinely don't give a fuck but while being as genuine as possible.

Not to discount the value of game and manipulating situations, I just don't know that I could run the long con and respect myself. Which to me is more important than any appearances, morals or anything else.

[–]black_jack_davyDREAD Pirate Roberts1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You may both get something out of this Ribbonfarm-inspired analysis.

[–]27411 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fascinating story.

That triangulate concept is novel.

[–]0io-Tsundere1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'd try making one change at a time and really incorporate each one into your life. I've never been a Mormon but have a basically positive view of the organization (especially if they brought back polygamy....) I'm sorry to hear they've taken a hard-Left turn.

At the end of the day, you have to do you, but I'd implement maybe one new change every two or three weeks or so.

You want your wife and family to follow along (probably) and if you suddenly go off in what to them seems like a dangerous direction you'll scare them off.

The ship doesn't turn on a dime. Make a course correction and set a new course.

Edit: I have no idea how it works, but could you take over your local parish and send it off in a better direction?

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Eh - institutional polygamy looks good on paper but its a fucked up dynamic. Not enough women to go around just makes more dangerous incels. And the alphas getting all the women in a closed religious polygamous system aren't necessarily alphas. They have the best family ties, the highest church stature etc. Not self selection of real men vs betas. It circumvents game and changes the rules.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

no way or desire to take over my local ward. I'm a high priest, so I'm right there in the pool of highly eligible guys. But no fucking way. Would have to virtue signal hard enough to get noticed and called as the bishop, huge time commitment with no benefit - and the minute you step out of the correlated material or doctrine whatever the Church is currently teaching you will be removed and excommunicated.

Even those who call attention to the church and want to stay are excommunicated for apostasy. See Sam Young -former LDS bishop that complained about policy of bishops asking sexually inappropriate questions of children to determine their worthiness.

Church response... fuck you for eternity. (then quietly alter policy to reduce but not totally eliminate this problem and more importantly protect them from lawsuits)

[–]BobbyPeruMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I lived in a highly Mormon state for 4 years - business related reasons. Man, what a trip that was. My neighbor was the neighborhood bishop. Nice guy, but as soon as he figured out I wasn’t going to convert, he went from mr friendly to I couldn’t even get a wave from him as he ducked in his garage and acted like he didn’t see me.

I found it amusing mostly

But yeah, I know how strong their culture is, and in that state being Mormon could sure open a lot of business doors. I’m curious as to whether or not you live in “the Mormon state”

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

You would be surprised. I hate doing business in Utah. People are immature and everyone wants something for free because you are part of their readymade social network. It’s not that way with Mormons in other states. MLM get rich quick prosperity through blessings instead of hard work mentality rules.

I do all my business in other states. 100%

[–]BobbyPeruMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Well, that’s great, then you just have to deal with being an outcast with your Mormon folks. I could think of much worse. It’s admirable you are standing up for what you believe in now that your eyes are open. It sounds like your wife may be “in love” with the Mormon lifestyle. Have you considered that maybe you went a little Rambo and that approaching it slower might have given you the opposite to lead her slowly (as you build your overall leadership)? I don’t know the answer for sure, but it’s a thought I had.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Quite possible. My worldview and frame cracked hard and she could tell. I made the mistake of being a man and relying on information. I only shared 1/1000th of what bothered me. Followed the advice of many exmormon to try to bring her along and not go it alone. I outpaced and developed too fast.

Likely due to me knowing much more than her and actually being far deeper into it than she ever was. It is metaphysical for her as well as social. As expected with a woman based solely on feelings.

Unfortunately I feel some pressure as I am working on a timetable. Since redpill I have controlled my finances. I am no longer paying 10% of my pre tax income for something I don’t believe. Come November we will be called into the bishop’s office like every year and handed a sheet with our yearly donations on it and asked to declare to him if we are full, honest and faithful tithepayers.

That sheet is going to read a big fat zero.

At that point if we are not tithepayers our temple recommends (at minimum mine) will be revoked and I will be an infidel. The bishop will tell me that I am robbing God and suggest a plan for repentance and return to the flock. He will expect me to DEER to him as to why I no longer believe.

I will be released from all positions in the church and while I will still be able to attend I will now be a second class citizen that the local leadership will discuss and pray for.

I need to have things on the way to locked down so this doesn’t catch her flat footed. The panic and shame of that meeting cold would certainly accelerate things.

Ideally I will not attend such a meeting ever again.

[–]freshona0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why would you go to such a meeting at all?

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I won't. I listed it to illustrate that I am on a timeline because come November it is what is expected of a true believer. Were I to rip that band-aid off completely at that point, either by going or not my wife would still go and the results will be the same.

So in my admittedly clumsy bumbling way I have made it known at least in part that I am struggling to believe etc. Exmormons who have gone through this universally tell people not to shock and awe, and it's not something I can just STFU and autistically hold frame. It is going to require an adult conversation or 10 to let her know where I stand.

There are built in mechanisms to out nonbeleivers and force my hand.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

You could avoid all this. Set up direct ACH tithing to the church. Then pay a small token amount - your ward will see zero and they won’t even blink. Just tell them you pay direct to the church. It’s very common.

When it comes time for temple recommend interview and they ask if you pay a full tithe, just answer “yes”. How can you say yes? Read these two articles.

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html?m=1

https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/12/when-tithing-settlement-goes-horribly.html?m=1

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Believe me, I have read them and researched. My question at this point is why?

Why give them a dime?

Not to mention that I would have to lie through my teeth about accepting and believing all of the other garbage to keep a temple recommend.

I won't do it.

Why keep a temple recommend? I don't intend on ever returning. That's literally what broke it all for me. The temple is what showed me I couldn't rely on the church to stand for me, or anything except itself. No eternal unwavering truth and no backbone.

Feminists bitched incessantly that women covenanted to listen to and respect their husbands, so they caved and changed the language at the end of last year. They will do anything for optics and to keep the tithing $ flowing.

They will ask you to support them in taking a hard stand, even if you don't believe it, follow the prophet and obey, then pull that same rug out from under you later.

Look at their 2015 policy on gays and the reversal of the policy just 3 years later. People bent themselves into pretzels to take a hard stand as to why the policy was correct. We were asked by the prophet to defend it publicly on social media. Regardless of you belief, look at what an asshole you look like on twitter for your obedient rabid defense of said policy when they cave.

I can't build my badass redpill keep on the shifting sands of LDS doctrine.

Its a waste of time.

Sure I could go that route if I wanted to keep up appearances, but it wouldn't reduce the questions my wife asks when she doesn't get a tithing settlement confirmation.

All I'm saying is that if I covert contract and hide like a "nice guy" hoping I won't be found out the shit is bound to hit the fan at tithing settlement time.

If I intelligently and progressively own the fact that I no longer believe I can hopefully be out on my terms before it is an issue and with my marriage intact... or not.

I am able to deal with that now.

[–]amalgamator1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Makes sense - I think you then approach it with compassion and integrity. Work on building trustworthiness.

“Babe, I need to talk to you about something - I have stopped paying tithing and I won’t be paying any more.”

Hold frame with compassion.

“Believe me, I know how hard it will be to be judged by others for my actions, but I can’t pay it with integrity.”

“I know this is going to be hard on all of us, but my eyes have been opened and I can’t unsee it. I’m done pretending I’m something I’m not - this is the real me and I would love to get to know the real you. I’m not looking for a wet hole to stick my dick in, I want real intimacy with you. I want to bring my best self to you and the kids.”

Compassion and honesty. Show her your integrity. Trustworthiness brings attraction.

I gained a lot by reading Dr. David Schnarch. His book Passionate Marriage is good, but his later book Intimacy and Desire is better.

This right here is “The Crucible” he talks of.

You have to work on your differentiation, which will pressure her to change. His “4 points of balance” were so helpful to remember when the shit hits the fan and your lizard brain wants to take over.

https://crucible4points.com/crucible-four-points-balance

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'll read it. Thank you.

Telling her I am not paying tithing is fully coming out and saying I do not believe. Furthermore with the gospel of prosperity that is taught she is going to have a panic attack that we will go bankrupt and our house will burn down etc. as soon as I stop paying my protection money.

Gotta slow roll.

[–]amalgamator1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes - I agree. It’s how you do it. If you do it from integrity, she will (begrudgingly) accept it. The church now actually says we should love and stay in contact with those that go thru a faith crisis and leave. I think it was like the first talk in last conf (Elder Sores?) - In fact, there were numerous comment about people leaving. It’s shocking how many of my gen x friends and family have left, it is the current crisis in the church. Why else do you think they switched to 2 hr church. She won’t have a leg to stand on if she divorces you because you left. Only if you are a loose cannon and verbally or emotionally abusive do you lose. If you are kind and compassionate but hold onto yourself and your integrity, you win.

She is your wife and they are your kids. Just love them and learn to self-soothe and self regulate when she acts like a bitch.

[–]Mukato1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminists bitched incessantly that women covenanted to listen to and respect their husbands, so they caved and changed the language at the end of last year. They will do anything for optics and to keep the tithing $ flowing.

I've been out for a while. Did they really change this?? what a bunch of pussies.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s ridiculous. Fundamentally alters the covenant which means it was never real to begin with.

Now it’s wise mother Eve cucks Adam and gets a high five from God for saving the human race from bumbling men.

[–]Mukato0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

what did they change the language to?

[–]maxwoj1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I had been on your path several years ago. Wanted to be good Christian, so I started to read the Bible and faith related texts. I looked for clues how to improve myself. I found those resources cruel, abhorrent, inconsistent and shallow. It occurred that the Word of the omnipotent God is full of bullshit and insconstencies. If you wanna literally follow the Bible teachings, you need to do contradictory things, be judgmental and even perfom crimes.

Then I read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. This book answers a lot of questions the awaking from religion person has. Among many of them, this book proves why the religion is not a source of morality. It's merly a byproduct of morality.

Getting rid of religion was hard. It felt exactly like checking out of a long, toxic relationship. According to all main religions all burden of the relationship with God is on you, and the God won't even bother to give you any sign he cares or even listen. As the Catholic Church claims God's Alpha. And Omega. No reason for a guy with strong frame to please ever absent and angry Alpha.

You're swallowing two different kinds of red pill at once. Good luck

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you.

[–]becoming_alphaGrinding1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

As my brother who started from roughly the same place at the same time, I feel a bit like I've been on this journey with you. You're right about the social consequences of letting the ward know you're out. The ministering visits will increase and you'll become a project for the ward council. You can get through that, my own brothers have, though they left the church before they had families.

A fellow MRPer here did almost the exact same thing you did a few years ago, but I think not believing in the church came before MRP for him. I think for the sake of his kids, and teaching them good values, the social structure of the church, and because he had a really good stake president, he decided to stay "active" in the church but doesn't hold a calling and I don't think he pays tithing. He even dropped a talk full of red pill truths at sacrament meeting. I'm not saying you should do that, but it's a path to consider. Even if you get divorced, your kids will be going to the church half the time anyway. If you can't stomach going through the motions, I get that too.

You're a good dude, and I'm proud of you for standing on your own two feet and following your personal convictions.

One serious glaring problem with your post though. Not nearly enough beard :-)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

A fellow MRPer here did almost the exact same thing you did a few years ago...

Bro you could have at least given me a shout out by name hahaha. I've gone back and forth on going full withdrawal. For now, I'm content with being an open apostate and I make no secret of being a non-believer. I don't feel like a project, I haven't had one "ministering" visit, and I have control over framing the issue ... i.e., I'm happy, successful, and thriving as a non-believer.

[–]becoming_alphaGrinding0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's pretty remarkable that you're able to attend weekly and enjoy all the social benefits for your family, preach red pill truths from the pulpit while being an open apostate, and somehow not be a project of the ward council. However you framed that up, nice work!

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

LOL Thanks man.

I don't mind if my wife and kids go forever. The church isn't true for me but if they get value out of it, great. Especially if I am free to counteract the bullshit with redpill reality.

I've still got the beard and it is glorious. ;)

[–]screechhaterMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is an ass kicking, take no prisoners post of developing “frame”

It is about educating yourself. Never, ever underestimate the power of knowledge.

It just fucking blows me away how many fucks come here, start and never really understand “frame” is about living with knowledge to live a better life, and then implementing it.

I fault you for Defending your stance and talking way to much on the lawyer meeting. But then again welcome my friend, freedom lies beyond the next series of doors

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank you.

So I can learn, what would have been the best course of action in your opinion when confronted about the lawyer meeting?

I felt really good about the fact that I didn’t get defensive, didn’t apologize or feel shame, just owned it and told her that I took her threat seriously.

I appreciate the feedback.

[–]screechhaterMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My response would have been, “and ?”

I’m at a whole different level than most of you and I still have a fuck to learn.

It’s essential you operate in your frame. Meaning, “ya, I saw a lawyer.” She’s not stupid, she knows she threatened you

Don’t explain yourself Her comments are to get your to operate in her frame, further manipulating you, to stay in line. Remember, women are master manipulators.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great. She has attempted to reengage and rewrite the narrative a few times since.

She gets nothing on this from here on out.

[–]witnessthenomorebp1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Left 4 years ago after reading the CES letter and discovering the exmormon sub Reddit. I feel your pain and it was the best thing I ever did. If you are in the valley there are a bunch of us here. It's a cult and that is why you are feeling the way you do. Brainwashing and mind control combined with shunning = cult. Stick to you and you will come out happier, healthier and much better off.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks man. yep I am here in the valley. Working my exit plan. One big takeaway here is I need to have a true MAP mission and vision I can communicate to replace it.

Super difficult because I’ve always had to balance my goals and “mission” with whatever God supposedly expected of me and had to check off the boxes in the church. It’s a philosophy of various finish lines. Mission, marriage, callings, heaven. In a world without finish lines it’s sometimes hard to relate.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Damn bro, I'm late to the game after being out of town the last few days. Can't say I'm shocked to see this is the conclusion you've reached. It's a liberating experience when you allow yourself the freedom to question the "truths" you've been taught, but you're now in a position of navigating unfamiliar waters. A few thoughts:

It’s patently obvious that I’m still a shit captain, because she is not following my leadership and doesn’t believe or respect a fucking thing I say. I’m the bad guy.

Just as you can't negotiate desire, you can't force her to follow your lead out of the church. She will need to come to this on her own, which may or may not happen. The more you push for this, the more she will retrench. I'm taking the long game approach.

Once my retraction from the church goes public ...

What's your plan here? Are you going to resign? I'm still on the records but have been open about my status as a non-believer. I semi-regularly attend with my family, don't hold a calling, don't pay tithing, don't hold a TR, etc. I enjoy the social component, and when I attend I treat it as such.

My family will be a project for church leaders, and since I will have stepped away, a degree of my authority within the household will be cucked to local priesthood leaders.

This is another reason I've decided not to remove my name from church records. Here's an interesting twist ... my bishop has actually complimented me for attending as a non-believer. I've never felt like my family is a project, but if I completely stopped attending or removed my name from the records, that would likely change.

She threatened me with divorce being on the table if I choose to leave the church. AWALT revisionist history makes me the aggressor. No fucks given. Stop engaging and STFU.

This may be a shitty comfort test. She's likely worried you're going to start fucking around now that you don't have the moral obligations of a believer. Give her reassurance that you're still the same guy she married, even if you don't believe the same things. Then STFU and let your actions speak. It's hard for TBMs to comprehend that people can be good without the influence of the church. Take this as an opportunity to re-evaluate your progress and work on being a better captain than you were before.

My plan is to make my way forward in the way that I see fit and now free of having my life held hostage by her or any church.

This.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not sure on the formal resignation at this point. I need to navigate the new dynamic further, but that's a likely endgame. That said, my disbelief will go public as I stop accepting new callings, ask to be released from my current high level calling, and when it goes public to my wife and bishop etc. that I'm not paying tithing.

That's the shift. I'm not shouting it from the rooftops or looking for attention. Just doing my own thing.

And I agree. Gotta show that I provide good value and detach the vision of our relationship to the marriage TO the Church we currently have.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've been down that road so feel free to reach out if you need a sounding board.

[–]BluepillProfessorMarried-MRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The only truths in this world are The Red Pill and Holy Scripture. Read the Bible and find God the way it was intended. Jesus is still there even if your belief in the trappings of a particular religion have been shaken.

One point to ponder: If you have finally accepted that you can, in fact, divorce your wife, then it is far, far less likely that you will actually have to divorce her. If you don't leave the wife, why do you need to leave the church?

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good point to ponder. The counter question is, at this point, what value does it provide in my life?

It is a high-demand fundamentalist religion. Hard to live in the middle ground. It certainly has a lot of demands: time, dedication, $$, and constantly having to check my anger at the dishonesty spouted as doctrine when I know better.

In return for those demands, what does it give me that I want, need, can't find elsewhere? So far I don't have an answer for that.

During my earlier phases of doubt, I rationalized and doubled down on my devotion citing the value it provided. As I find that every value the church can provide is 1)unreliable and subject to the whims of others, and 2)something I can provide for myself... the juice simply isn't worth the squeeze.

[–]roasterviking1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mormonism made bitches of all of us that were in it. You got this brother.

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

If there is a God

there isn't. always fails me how any RATIONAL man believe in the sky god. pure projection

Her response to the dread so far has been underwhelming.

either she doesn't believe the threat is real or doesn't see it as a loss.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am much more willing to consider that as a possibility now. On both points. Thank you.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockPlaying the lead roll1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

“sky god”

Talk about a good bullshit story.

“Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!”

-George Carlin

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

god, or gods for that matter, fails on the simple test of

what is the least plausible, and most convoluted, explanation for everything - god

what is the most plausible explanation for god - man

[–]27410 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The level of enlightenment about the human condition evinced in the 4 Gospels has not had human produced philosophy come close before or since. The on-target-ness, the poetry. If a divine being didn't write it, who did?

Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Store up for yourself treasures in heaven [virtue], where thieves do not break in and steal, and moth and rust do not destroy.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Ask and you shall receive; knock and the door will be opened.

If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain "Go, throw yourself into the sea" and it will be done for you.

He that tries to save his life will lose it but he who gives up his life for the right cause will save it.

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

philosophy come close before or since

you need to get outside of your own belief system more, none of this material is original or novel - Greek Stoicism and Eastern religions to just name a few.

If a divine being didn't write it, who did?

men smarter and deeper than you. just as there is always a man faster and stronger than you, there are also men so much more intelligent that you are unable to even comprehend their thinking.

the need for people to think that they, or their particular belief system / religion, are SPECIAL is pathetic and apparently endemic to the human condition.

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

When you step back and look at the bigger picture though, the bible is a great guide for growing a strong mind.

Read it through with a more narcissistic, self-actualized, god-complex lens and see if the deeper meaning behind the symbolism doesn't show through.

Not trying to be snarky. Your mind seems to be wired up like mine when it comes to this shit though. Same as diving into the social conditioning through pro sports. Might interest ya.

As far as literal sky gods though...hell no.

[–]27410 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"guide for growing strong mind .. read with narcissistic god-complex lens"

agree

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately this is a puerile understanding of the God of monotheism. This perspective of God lacks the Greek philosophical grounding that enabled countless religious geniuses throughout the centuries to revolutionize the world and introduce the Scientific Revolution. Galileo, Copernicus, Newton - whatever - the list goes on forever. Do you think any of those guys believed the nonsense you posted that came out of Carlin’s mouth? It’s an unsophisticated understanding of monotheism.

[–]RPeedEverything is GAY / Dreadful '192 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

PSA: you ever want to smoke out a lurker, post a quote and wait for the "wulll akshually...".

[–]PersaeusMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

puerile

you might be more careful with the words you use, lest the irony overcome your pedantic machinations designed to validate your own belief system.

religion is about power, and most acutely at the personal level. faith is a surrender to powerlessness; and it is this same powerlessness in the face of forces and fates that man does not understand and cannot control that drives the need for a higher power to which surrender is required.

Galileo, Copernicus, Newton

stop digging, now you just appear simple

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Threatening with divorce is not dread, don't expect dreadlike results from it. Dread is the response to learning that other girls want to fuck you.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate the clarification.

Which is exactly why I didn't threaten divorce. She did.

And yes, filing for divorce is in the 12 steps of dread. I'm not there yet. I've put in a considerable amount of work to become a high value man and continue to do so. Sex has ramped up accordingly as she has seen my value increase. That is until my worldview got fucked over and I lost some frame here. Working to fix that.

All I did was educate myself on the ramifications. Turns out while it would suck, it's not something to be terrified of for me.

[–]SepeanMRP APPROVED1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You wrote something that sounded like you expected the looming divorce to have some dreadlike effect on her, I just wanted to correct that.

I know BPP put the divorce things on the higher levels of dread, but it is really something very different. The levels are more a playbook for saving a marriage, and the later stages are desperate measures for a man with low SMV unable to increase it. You shouldn’t have to go there to have sex, and it does not have the same effect. It could of course be possible that the threat of divorce can make her fuck, but it is a coerced action, unlike the earlier levels that work through increased attraction.

Anyway, just wanted to make a correctiom on the dread thing - as for the rest of it I have no experience with religion or leaving it. I’m 100% atheistic and it sounds like you have to get you and your kids out of that environment - you now see on yourself how much damage your indoctrination did to you. So either you get your wife out too and you all relocate, or you divorce her. But that’s not a suggestion based on in depth understanding of the issues you’re facing

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

More than anything it was the stay plan same as the go plan becoming more of a reality that I hoped would give me more outcome independence and help me through this and rebuild my mental frame thus resulting in more dread.

I didn't intentionally clue her in on the divorce notes, but once it was done I figured it couldn't really hurt to let her know that threats of divorce are unacceptable and will be taken seriously.

As for getting my wife and kids out or relocating... I like it here. I think I can handle being a nonmormon in urban Utah. Demographics are changing. My wife can stay in the Church or not. Kids too. I'm not going to tell them what to believe. I am going to be fun and lead by example. If I am doing my part to lead I think they can get some good from it and I can undo most of the damaging bullshit. Sure they can tell my wife and kids what a bad guy I am all they want, but if I'm holding frame and leading it will run off like water.

[–]framelessglasses0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Which is exactly why I didn't threaten divorce. She did.

True, but you set her up. u/Sepean is dead on about dread. Slow your roll.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

👍🏼

[–]g_e_m_anscombe1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I converted from atheism to Christianity in college and the first group I left after one year was pretty culty, like Mormonism. I’m one of the only people who stayed Christian, but I went on a 7 year theological journey. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because Mormonism is crazy doesn’t mean all organized religion is bad.

Your attitude of it’s not your job to convert her is right. If you lead well she may just follow you, but it’s hard to do when a whole family is in so deep.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. I'm my own man. I don't need an organization to preach to me.

I can know God on my own terms.

Maybe I'll take a page from my viking ancestors and worship Odin. Makes a fuck-ton more sense. Gods that generally don't get involved in peoples lives, don't give a a fuck and only respect men who have the balls to make their own damn way in the world.

[–]SteelToeShitKicker1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure you have thought of this, but just in case... We have a small mormon population in town, and they tend to be employed at the same places. Just make sure that if you go apostate, the church doesn't have members with influence to fire you or affect you financially. If so, best start looking for a new position.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

One of the best aspects of my life right now is that my boss is not only fully redpilled and a regular reader here, but on the same page with regards to religion. He is one of my very best friends.

I will suffer a cultural ostratization to be sure, but I am one of the few in Utah who can say that I am 100% secure in my career when it comes to my religious outlook.

[–]SteelToeShitKicker1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am 100% secure in my career when it comes to my religious outlook.

Nice. Good luck then. Like you said, I'm sure it's pretty rare in utah.

[–]meetinnovatorsadrian1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The red pill by itself can turn into a black pill (ie very negative).

Before you throw everything away, learn about Rooshv, one of the most famous red pill guys in the manosphere who has now become a christian

https://www.thedailybeast.com/daryush-valizadeh-the-pick-up-artist-known-as-roosh-says-he-has-found-god

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-73256.html

https://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-72750.html

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I have no problem with the existence of God, or Christianity. I prefer to believe frankly.

I am also open to the possibility that none of it is true. I'm sorting through a ton of things as rationally as possible as I go through this.

I'm working very hard not to black pill it.

That said, after growing up with the LDS church teaching me how all other religions were false and the reasons why only WE have the truth, and then finding out that those truth claims are misrepresentations I find it hard to trust any organized religion ever again.

I can see the code in the matrix, and once I apply that skill to my own religion, it falls just as short as all of the others.

Religions need me and my $ far more than I need them to be a good man. Forget it.

I'll find God (or not) on my own.

[–]meetinnovatorsadrian0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Pretty much all our ideologies are falling apart at this point. All contain various parts of the truth so its hard to tell which are right.

Here's one other link which might be worth considering as you figure things out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WwAQqWUkpI

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll watch it. Thank you.

[–]WhiteNight2001 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Faith is deeply personal. I hope you find what you're looking for.

I'd be more interested in hearing where you were stalling with the Pill.

It's your prerogative, but I encourage you to leave your old posts as they are. They were influential in my choice to pursue MRP, as I'm sure they have been for many others.

Like you said, finding balance between Mormonism and the Red Pill is Nintendo-hard.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have no beef with guys who are making the church work for them either. Wish I could. And rest assured it's not red pill that led me away from the Church and led me astray. The church did it to themselves. At most red pill made me more comfortable with hard truths.

I'm not deleting anything on here. I meant every word I wrote at the time I wrote it.

Stalled with MRP is in my mind like the guys who stall out when they get sidelined by a major illness.

Furthermore, it gets impossible to maintain frame when you built your life framework on things you no longer believe.

For me I had to stop relying on church doctrines to prop up my personally weak frame. I'm having to rebuild from scratch.

[–]MrChad_ThundercockPlaying the lead roll1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

“built your life framework on things you no longer believe”

Ex Catholic here. Born & raised. Red pill awakening totally changed me for the better. I could see through the bullshit. Couldn’t do it anymore.

I can find spirituality on my own without a trillion $$ middleman.

Good luck to you. It’s fucking awesome being on the other side. Hard at first. Take the lessons you learned, never a wasted moment, it’s all data points to invest into tomorrow.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. Means a lot. I was a missionary in Italy and have a tremendous affinity for those raised Catholic.

[–]samwiser921 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be at an early anger/Rambo phase, you should slow down as you may destroy relationships you could regret a year+ from now. You’re conflating your personal/marriage/faith crises in a whirling victim puke looking for dopamine-inducing validation online here. You proclaim RP, but kinda sound like a faggot. I should hope once you get the anti-Mormon stuff outta your system you can find affirming things to bring you greater peace and a new mission.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Appreciate the feedback. I’ll take an introspective look.

Yes. I am in anger phase.

Just like I was with red pill.

Similar to red pill, onceyou find out there is no spoon it is a hell of a mind fuck. It hurts. There are a ton of sunk costs. Years of my life, crushing guilt, lost opportunities etc. the financial costs are the least of all them.

I’m curious as to what you believe I may have done or will do to destroy relationships.

If a relationship falls apart because I choose a new personal spiritual belief system then that relationship wasn’t real to begin with.

I’m not walking in and shitting on the church in conversations with my believer friends. I’m not doing it in church in Sunday or in r/LDS

Sure I’ve commiserated with some understanding guys here. call that a dopamine chase if you like. It’s been helpful to me.

The way you say anti-Mormon and claim I will get it out of my system once I find affirming things tells me you are likely a true believer.

That’s awesome. I envy you. I really do. I have lived and loved the church my entire life. I’ve spent the last 6 months searching for a way to make it all work.

By the way. The “anti-Mormon” stuff you cite isn’t from r/exmormon or the CES letter or anything else.

My problems with the Church come entirely from church materials and practices both past and current. Contrary to church narrative there isn’t some magical anti-Mormon literature out there that will turn you to stone.

The church proves itself wrong all the time. No help needed from the lost souls fighting it.

Thanks for calling me out. I’ll try to whine less and stop being an angry faggot. Any tips on getting through this anger phase would’ve helpful.

It’s similar but not quite like the anger phase when you discover AWALT.

[–]amalgamator0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I loved this podcast about the flip flop Pres. Nelson did with the kids of LGBT couples. Might be good to share with your wife. Get her to think about how the leadership now is in apostasy.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussions-podcasts-full-lineup/id562296100?i=1000435905281

[–]VotablePodcastsBot0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Mormon Discussions Podcasts – Full Lineup

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[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that is a great one RFM is a stud.

[–]waitshhhhhh 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great post /u/alphasixfour! And congrats on your, shall we say, faith transition. I'm a never-mo but was raised a strict southern baptist, but no longer any sort of believer.

For some reason, I'm a huge geek over LDS history, mainly because it's so recent, you can see how the sausage is actually made.

Last year I read two histories of the mormon church -- Rough Stone Rolling, by a TBM who is constantly making apologetics for the history he can't quite whitewash. And No Man Knows My History, by Fawn Brody, who was a TBM, realized it's bullshit and wrote a fantastic book about the early years.

I never post on MRP because, frankly, I just can't keep up with all the goddamn jargon. But the thing that jumped out at me reading mormon history is how goddamn blue pill the entire society is. With Joe Smith and his huge pair of red pill balls at the top. *Hey, you should go on a mission to england, I'll just stay here and keep watch on your wife and daughter.*

Seriously, holy fuck the balls on that guy! He's a straight up psychopath, but he just did what every other incredibly successful religious leader has done to one degree or another since time began. *Hey, God told me you should give me your shit. Here's a bunch of rules and regulations he also gave me to keep you busy and make you feel guilty. And when you do feel guilty, come back to me with more shit because God also gave me the solution to that!*

Do you ever frequent /r/exmormon? It's filled with stories just like yours. Some marriage destroyed by and others transformed by the realization that it's all bullshit.

Anyway, just wanted to say hi and that your wordy post was a fantastic read for this never-mo.

Also, what is DEERing? I've seen it around, but can never figure it out.

[–]Dickskingoalzz0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I lived in Utah for 11 years, when my business partners tried to convert me I read the CES letter and 100% noped out. I’ve seen firsthand the effect it can have, if at all possible you should leave the Morridor and get your family into “normal” life.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You’re the leader, she’ll follow you. But do you want that?

[–]framelessglasses0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

A church is run by people. God does not run it. His name is just used as a free endorsement.

Aside from your wife, your problem is with church people. Try not to confuse that with your relationship, or lack of it, with God.

Seriously , re-read your post, and, try to recognize how reactive you are to your wife's frame. Think about cooling your jets a bit, you are showing some Rambo macho mind here. That seldom ends well for anyone. Once you see how you've turned over way too much of your frame to her, and the church people, then decide about pulling the pin and running.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Good advice. I am definitely too reactive and flooded. My religion was my meditative way to overcome my anger. With that smashed to bits I recognize I can be a bit of a bitch.

[–]framelessglasses0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Separating the issues might help you. Dealing with your relationship with God, your religion, your wife's religion, your wife's frame, and last but not least your frame.

Separate them, simplify them, and take charge of them one by one. Unless you like being on the hamster wheel.

Ignore the simple minded idea that dumping her, God, or religion fixes you.

u/Bogeyd6 says it well:

Life is what you make of it, so the more you expect someone else to provide you something the more you will never be satisfied.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Profound. Thank you.

[–]framelessglasses1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank Bogeyd6. He says a lot with a little...

Just for grins and giggles, I will predict that you are going to grind for a long time. Many here have. That's not a bad thing. I personally admire the man that works for years to master a craft, then keeps on improving.

[–]bogeyd6MRP MODERATOR0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If it helps, I grinded for two years because my balance was so far in the negative. Just keep hitting the gym and tuning out the noise.

[–]framelessglasses0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That would be you...

I personally admire the man that works for years to master a craft, then keeps on improving.

[–]WulfwinterrMarried0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, Mormonism is the biggest racket since Scientology - only it's been around a lot longer. You've probably already found it, but if you want help to un-brainwash your wife check out r/exmormon and cesletter.org.

Good luck dude.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep. Been down the rabbit hole years ago and wrote it all off.

Once the shelf of cognitive dissonance breaks all the issues you set up there come crashing down.

Thanks.

[–]Gofor_Pyle0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The Bible is red pilled, churches are not.

[–]FereallyRedHard Core Red[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Religion and redpill are fundamentally antagonistic.

Religion gives you a framework of how your life "should be". According to, well, whatever someone else decrees.

Redpill states you should do what is best for you, taking into account you still have to exist in a society that does not share your view.

Sit on the fence and that wrought iron fleur de lis imbeds itself in your ass.

[–]samwiser920 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You got some serious daddy issues with your church. You say your relationships aren’t real since they were founded on a lie, but a divorce court judge won’t use that logic when considering your four kids. Seriously, slow down. I recommended you find a new mission, for clarification, it needs to to be for something, not based on your anger against something.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. I've had such a hard time establishing my mission my entire life. I think because the Church prescribes your entire mission for you with a heavenly finish line.

Hopefully waking up like this will allow me to overcome that weakness and finally get my shit together.

[–]Goobergus_Gubbins0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great post. I'm now 55. Was raised in a cult. [Aside/ Do you know how you can tell if you're in a cult? Great news! It's those idiots at the church across the street from yours with their totally-incorrect invisible beings from the ancient world that are a cult. Yours is the one true faith. /aside] At around 40, my cognitive dissonance shattered when I read a couple books about evolution and big bang cosmology that were written by scientists and not theologians. It's hard to describe how mentally and emotionally jarring it was to realize that Noah's ark was not real and evolution was not fake. Anyway, I became non-religious, and stopped donating $thousands to Jesus. This was hard on my wife, but when she realized that I was a better man without my old invisible friends, she came around and it's a non-issue now. Good luck to you.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you

[–]freekshow880 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like you went Rambo on your religion and your wife.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Sure. I'll admit I've gone rambo with the wife a few times in the nearly 2 years I've been at this.

Not seeing how I went Rambo with her here. I've been working through my own beliefs while shutting the fuck up and focusing on my mission.

As for going rambo on my religion... its kind of a funny thing. I was the equivalent of a fucking knight templar for my church. They teach you to be rambo.

Claims of absolute truth will do that to you. So when you find out it's not it's difficult not to use that same black and white paradigm they taught you.

It's cool though. I haven't been out there ranting and raving, I've taken my time to calmly find out the truth. Hell I'm still attending church with her and the kids at this point.

But I appreciate it. Not sure how I could have done this one less Rambo but I appreciate the feedback.

[–]JosephWassmer0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

No matter how gently your wife finds out about your unbelief, Rambo is how it will appear. She has been conditioned to see apostasy as not only loosing the Holy Ghost, but being led astray by Satan. Not only have we lost the light, we are now filled with darkness. Brother from another mother.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So true.

Just doing my best to live well and lead and hold frame at this point. She is free to follow, or not.

Thanks man.

[–]JosephWassmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. I am in a similar situation and feel the pain. Congratulations on your courage leaving the church. One of the most difficult things I have had to do. Best wishes to you!

[–]RPeedEverything is GAY / Dreadful '190 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Curious: if someone skipped every paragraph that contained the word mormon/LDS/church/religion... what relevant detail do you think they would miss?

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

probably all of them. Or none. Depends on if you consider a fundamental change in my personal belief system as well as a cultural and relationship change that will affect literally everything in my life relevant.

That's up to you.

[–]RPeedEverything is GAY / Dreadful '192 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

We were all dreaming something bro.

Still, Catholicism gave us the slut, so it's not all bad.

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll upvote that.

[–]itiswr1ttenMRP APPROVED0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The slut mandated to take it raw.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

start a blog

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What prompted that? What would I write about that I don't here?

I really don't know that I could add much value that isn't already out there. Sure I could go deeper into Church issues but r/exmormon does that in spades. And frankly, as I get through the anger phase and if I am going to truly maintain frame with regards to the church I just need to accept the fact that it is outside my frame and completely ridiculous and unimportant.

That said, I do like to write when I get rolling like this.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

it's a comment the redman group says when someone goes on with stream of consciousness

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah. Yeah I’m kinda the king of that.

Been a while since I’ve watched the guys due to all the time spent working out my beliefs

[–]mrpthrowa-4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I came out of this post knowing more about her than about you

Give us some respect dude I don’t have time to know about a random ho

[–]alphasixfourGrinding[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What relevant detail about me do you want to know? What did I miss?

[–]Gray_Harman-4 points-3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

MRP is fundamentally antithetical to nearly everything the New Testament Jesus ever taught in the Bible. How MRP followers ever think they can be believing Christians and also follow the MRP plan is entirely beyond me.

[–]ArborioRice2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Mind the plank in your own eye before concerning yourself with the speck in ours.

[–]Gray_Harman-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Easy there Rambo. Focus on the topic.

If MRPers want to MRP, this is a judgment-free zone. I'm not judging. Rather, I'm pointing out a logical fallacy that is a hindrance to anyone walking either an MRP or Christian path. These two systems are incompatible, period. You can't point to a single major teaching of Jesus Christ that does not violate MRP 101. That's value added information. Men must choose where they stand. But they need to know when they're trying to stand in two very different places simultaneously.

[–]ArborioRice1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's value added information.

No, it's your own moralizing so you can feel better about yourself. Signal your virtue elsewhere.

Guess what, the LDS or the Catholics or whomever can continue to dupe their men into following the one true way and those men will still end up here because their wives won't fuck them.

Now, if you have a nice Christ Church approved template to make panties wet again...that's value add. Since you certainly don't, we're not interested.

[–]Gray_Harman-3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's your own moralizing so you can feel better about yourself. Signal your virtue elsewhere.

If you want to get butthurt, that's your own issue. Your emotions aren't going to upset my frame either way. I didn't claim that any system or person was either virtuous or evil. You are projecting your own emotional sensitivities onto my value neutral comments. I'm not making any kind of proclamation about the hierarchy of Christianity vs MRP. I merely pointed out a logical incompatibility that causes men to get confused in making choices about what their frame should look like.

Guess what, the LDS or the Catholics or whomever can continue to dupe their men into following the one true way and those men will still end up here because their wives won't fuck them.

If you have issues with either church, I don't care. That's not why I'm sharing information here.

Now, if you have a nice Christ Church approved template to make panties wet again...that's value add. Since you certainly don't, we're not interested.

Actually, if wet panties are the primary goal, then recognizing the need to turn away from Christianity, so that proper MRP frame can be achieved, will get MRPers laid faster and more often. So, by your own criteria, value added for this community.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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