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I've heard it said a million times, and even here on MRP it's taken as gospel: actions are more powerful than words.

It's true. That's why us newer guys are told to lift heavy, read the recommended stuff, and SHUT THE FUCK UP. As with all advice, however, one also has to know when is the time to move beyond the basics. That's where I find myself in my redpill journey: eight months in and I've finally got a second decent thought to contribute. Here's a link to my previous MRP post from five months ago for you lazy fuckers: https://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/comments/aol8ro/reasonable_requests_versus_testing_false_positives/

A few months ago, my father-in-law called me up after I walked out during one of the wife's full on tirades. I didn't say a word to her, I just left. I went to work the next day having not spoken to her and I got his call that afternoon. The wife thought I was gone for good, and to be honest I was on the fence about returning. Father-in-law reminded me that the most important thing was our two year old daughter (obviously) and that growing up in a broken home isn't best for her (also, obviously). I told him that neither was her growing up in a marriage where I am treated poorly and I keep coming back for more. I said that if the wife wasn't going to move beyond things from the past then it doesn't matter what I do.

He said, "then come what may."

I thought about those words for a long time. I had been projecting my frame just fine in that situation, but my outcome independence was nowhere near the level it should have been. Here is a fucking Army Ranger preaching outcome independence even if it means his little girl is going to be a divorced single mother. I've never respected that man more than I did in that moment. It was definitely a gut check.

There's a difference between formulating a plan and being an anxious little bitch, and I was the latter. I was so preoccupied with how things might go down in a divorce that I was rudderless. Not recommended.

I returned, handled the situation well, and over the past few months things got better between the wife and I. Sex quality and frequency slowly improved, and she began stepping into my frame. Once just after sex my wife said, "I feel like I'm on probation and that you're just waiting for me to fuck up so you can leave me." I kissed her on the forehead and simply told her I loved her, and the next day we spent a wonderful day together as a family. Dread is a hell of a drug.

I've stopped pandering to her insecurities, but I never forgot those words - then come what may - and the true lesson of outcome independence.

Sometimes my wife still gets paranoid that I might react poorly and act like a beta bitch. She'll say, "I thought you were going to be mad at me." I'll just smile and wag my finger at her. "Bad wifey." Then she's shaking her head and smiling at me. I'm still not great about complimenting her when she does a good job and I need to improve at seduction, but at least she is stepping into my frame.

The point is that without true outcome independence and a strong frame for your wife to step into, there's no way you're ready to start leading her to a better marriage or connecting with her. I was silent, dismissive, and indifferent to the point where she was still paranoid about the past creeping back up. I needed to start filling that void with my frame.

Which leads me back to my original point; you have to know when it's time to start saying something.

If you don't have something truly meaningful to say, then by all means SHUT THE FUCK UP. Once you've gained outcome independence and your wife is beginning to enter your frame, however, you can begin to lead her (and your kids) by using your words to broadcast your actions. You absolutely have to follow through on what you say.

How to Not Fuck This Up: Power Phrases and Brevity.

More than likely you're not ready to start talking. However, if you are going to start moving beyond SHUTTING THE FUCK UP then let me put a couple of choice phrases in your toolbox. Many of these were suggested by other MRP veterans, but I don't have the time to hunt down sources so just assume that I stole this shit. The most important part is to say very little.

  • Saying "I got this" before you take control of a situation builds a lot of stock in those words so you can use them later to assert your leadership.
  • Saying "It's going to be okay" consistently during comfort tests is an easy way to turn your wife into Pavlov's dog, except it's going to be her pussy that's wet.
  • Saying "I understand why you feel that way" when she's upset maintains your control. Your wife is even more tired of your defending and explaining yourself than you are; she just wants to feel heard and understood.

In all of those situations you should ask yourself, "what's the most powerful thing I can say right now." If you don't have a solid answer then shut the fuck up. Once you're ready, having a few go-to power phrases can make a big difference.


[–]HornsOfApathyMRP APPROVED28 points29 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's interesting to see the shift with men here at MRP when they figure out that STFU doesn't mean.... just STFU.

It means STFU until you can figure out how to speak again in a masculine, authoritative (frame), leading way. Months of STFU prepare your mind and frame to finally be able to speak HONESTLY and truthfully about your direction and desires.

That's what I'm seeing with a lot of the intermediate guys here... they're finally speaking up, but instead of it being full of beta faggotry their words carry meaning.

It's not until you've attractive and have a decent frame do your words mean shit to your wife or family.

Strength, motherfucker.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not until you've attractive and have a decent frame do your words mean shit to your wife or family.

It makes sense that you mention family, but it really goes for everyone. Most of the disciplined, confident, and humble men I know at the gym have the respect of more than just their partners. Attractiveness is often subjective, but being healthy, physically fit & strong, and well groomed/dressed are all positive indicators of self-discipline and good decision making skills to others.

[–]andyturbo2000 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

The way I read “come what may” was that Army Ranger Rambo FIL was fully backing up your wife and you’re about to be chewed up by the divorce machine fully funded by pops. That or he’s going to kill you in your sleep.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It comes down to knowing the person and context around how he delivered the message. It doesn’t change what I took away from the conversation.

[–]TaipanshimshonMRP APPROVED3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A certain set of skills comes to mind

[–]umizumiz5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol

I imagine the phone cut out right after that and you're all confident and imbued with new energy while he's finishing his statement.

"... and enjoy your last 6 months alive"

Hahaha

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Excellent post. Those three phrases are key and don't require anything further to say.

As a follow up to "I got this", if I ever get a "but what if X, Y, or Z happens". "Then I got that too, it's on me".

You have to be the captain and lead. That means taking responsibility for a decision even when it doesn't work out as planned.

Example: We're doing IVF but my wife wanted to switch up what the approach was against the Doctor's advice. I told her "We're doing it this way". She wants to know "but what if it doesn't work out?". That's when you pull out the "Then I got that too, it's on me". She doesn't WANT to make the decision. She wants you too. It's the responsibility of being the leader.

Example of what not to do (beta faggot years): When my son was dying of cancer (terminal, 100% fatality rate) we were trying to figure out whether to do radiation or not to slow the progress. It would have been horrible on him (30 days of it, sedation every time), but I punted to my wife. We discussed it at length, but I gave the final decision to her.
"Whatever you want to do, you're his mom". Why? Because I didn't want the responsibility. What if I made the wrong choice, what if it made things worse? Etc. Looking back, the right decision was made (not do subject him to radiation), but wife did express guilt when he died 7 weeks later that we didn't have more time. How much easier would it have been for her to have 1) made the decision and 2) stuck to it and told her 7 weeks later "that decision is on me"?

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

God bless him. I'm sure your son would've grown into a better man because of you.

[–]primordialawe3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Probably has to be a decently solid baseline of respect from her in order for her to have faith that you making a final call about your son was the right move. That’s got to be the hardest of hard calls to ever make as parents.

All the guilt she had could have turned to anger or resentment toward you for “taking him away” sooner if she didn’t trust that you had a track record of making decisions that were the best for you and your family.

If you can’t hold to a decision (or any big one) afterward and fully own it regardless of the outcome, you’re a fuckup that she shouldn’t have trusted to make a decision. The consequences depend on the severity of the situation, of course.

Back to your “right way”, though, one of my go-to phrases goes like this:

Her: I’m worried about this and Scared of this happening and this blah blah blah and what if this happens and bears and fire and sharks and blah blah

Me: When I tell you I’m worried, you should get worried. Do I look worried?

Her: No.

Me: Then we are cool.

Her: ok... it’s just that blah and blah [the seas start to calm]... but yeah you’re right. Everything is fine.

[natural order is restored]

I’ve used this many many times. The kicker is that, similar to what I said above, I’ve got a pretty good track record of being a cool cucumber. I don’t freak out and every time I’ve said this, things have ended up being fine (which most shit usually is if you put enough time on the end of it...).

[–]blzbub_traveler0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow. Very sorry for your loss even if this isn't the point of your post.

[–]RoccoPinkmanGrinding7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nice post man. “Come what may” that really sticks with me.

[–]SBIIISAHDs are the epitome of sex5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

STFU is a great tool when you start out. It gives you time and space to calibrate and where you previously fucked up by engaging in pointless arguments / conversations. But it's far too easy to fall into a pattern of autistic STFU and at some stage, you need to engage.. good post - I like these power phrases.. have an upvote.

[–]itiswr1ttenMRP APPROVED5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Stfu is a great heuristic - it eventually forces the guy to learn what's valuable and persuasive and what is ego vomit.

[–]primordialawe2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You’re exactly right. I’ve started to use it as a filter to run responses through. More mental pause to dig through my toolbox than literal shutting up. The outcome very well may be carry on with my life and don’t open my mouth or it may be AA AM or it may be a direct statement about what I want or don’t want happening that’s directly related to the issue at hand.

Putting in reps smooths the grooves.

[–]UnbreakableFrameGrinding4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

With only the context that you provided, I interpreted your father-in-laws words very differently. It sounded a lot more like he was telling you to "man up" and be the change that he would like to see in your relationship. In this case, "come what may" sounds a lot like "you're gonna get what's coming to you". He was trying to tell you that his daughter isn't going to change, so your unwillingness to do so as well dooms the relationship. This man is rooting for your team, but don't forget which player's number is on his jersey.

I also want to make a distinction that I think gets lost on this sub much of the time. Outcome independence is not outcome apathy. Outcome independence is having a master plan that works despite what outcome occurs. You are not depending on a particular outcome for you to be able to continue pursuing your mission and leading a meaningful life. Outcome apathy, a term I'd like to see here much more often, is not caring which outcome you get. The latter is the one you are practicing and it makes for weak leadership. Outcome apathy is a buffer to protect your feelings. You pretend that all outcomes are equally desirable and thus you are non-committal to one vision for your future.

Strong leadership is predicated on vision, preparation, and execution. You can and should plan for numerous outcomes and not be dependent on a particular one. But if your vision and execution aren't focused, no one will be inspired to follow your leadership.

Having options is what causes dread and insinuates a need for compliance enough on it's own. If your mission was inspiring enough and focused enough and inclusive enough of her, you wouldn't need to act like a butthurt baby and threaten to nuke the relationship. I challenge the assertion that you are ready to stop shutting the fuck up.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

He was trying to tell you that his daughter isn't going to change, so your unwillingness to do so as well dooms the relationship

I thought I was clear from the post, but that's not what happened. I told my father-in-law that the wife wasn't willing to move on from the past and he said, "then come what may."

I disagree with some of your characterization, but I think the spirit of your comments are right on target. I didn't make it a point to tie all of this into my mission in the post. My point to the father-in-law was that if the wife can't trust me and/or respect me, then our marriage is doomed regardless of the work I'm putting in (toward my mission). I do care for my wife and I want our marriage to work, but I simply can't accept a marriage without peace, trust, and respect so I am prioritizing those things regardless of the ins and outs of our marriage.

[–]ReddJiveMRP APPROVED3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

STFU for me was always about not committing until I was ready. It should come about as a high value man that when you speak it means something.

People use their mouths like gatling guns. If and when you talk it should be important. Yet, not everything is important.

[–]TaipanshimshonMRP APPROVED2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then come what may.

Also. Because Fuck you.

Then again did you realize army ranger wasn't necessarily on your side ?

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m under no illusions about whose side he is on.

[–]weakandsensitive9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Such a good post. Why wreck it by devaluing everything you wrote with a tl;dr.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great point. If they don’t want to take the time then a summary isn’t going to help them.

[–]lololasaurus1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This post comes with excellent timing. We are in a very similar stage of our RP journey and I've been somewhat discovering this as well. Excellent post.

[–]SBIIISAHDs are the epitome of sex5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

We are in a very similar stage of our RP journey

Did your wife take the RP with you?

[–]primordialawe2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They also get pregnant together.

[–]PillUpAssUnplugging1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’ve landed on this same conclusion and use these same phrases. They seem minor but they make a big difference when said within your frame. They also help when the primary WISNIFG tactics are overkill. Good post.

[–]bcvickers1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"I understand why you feel that way"

I've modified this with ""I understand that you feel that way", because honestly I don't usually understand why she feels a certain way but I do understand that she's actually feeling that. Maybe it's just semantics but it works for me.

[–]ashofrose0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

What did you do to your wife in the past that she can’t let go of?

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Textbook examples of me having been a beta bitch/drunk captain in the past include:

  • Excessive alcohol consumption, to include driving after drinking.
  • Being emotionally unavailable in the wake of two miscarriages, resulting in little emotional support for her.
  • Being so preoccupied with her mistakes and blaming her that I was unwilling to admit that my poor behaviors were the largest part of the problem.
  • Harboring resentment and disgust for her parents because I don’t agree with some of their behavior/choices (as they relate to my marriage) and becoming unreasonably angry about even the most trivial of transgressions.
  • Attacking and blaming her for the lack of sex and intimacy.
  • Being overly critical of some of her career decisions.
  • General emotional instability and impulsiveness.

Things have been very different since I became a father and especially after finding this sub. I’m not the same man I was. Since that conversation, the wife has demonstrating that she’s working toward moving beyond the past, but it’s going to take a while before those things don’t loom large in her mind.

[–]saintraker0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is what is so hard to realize! A lot of the problems in our marriages were caused by us years ago and we didn’t even stop and figure out what is really happening until the shit hits the fan. Women forget nothing , even if they say they forgive you they never forget. I on the other easily let go of things from the past.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women not forgetting our bullshit is not a bug, it’s a feature. They want to know that they are with as high value of a man as they can get. Demonstrating low value over a long period of time invites constant scrutiny and criticism. Wives that have set sail with a drunk captain many times are not likely to forget those experiences for that reason.

[–]ineedapill70 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Also about 8 months in. For a while, I was so focused on passing shit tests that I was pretty consistently failing comfort tests.

I’ve started opening up for to engaging feelz and have a few passes comfort tests under my belt, especially when I’ve been on top of my shit and holding frame. It doesn’t always hold, I’m still learning, but we’ve both seen the benefits.

On to my question: there is a type of test I keep failing. I don’t know what it is. It goes like this: 1. I hurt her feelz because I don’t follow her lead and instead tell her we’re going with my plan. My plan is objectively better and she will later agree. I don’t do this in a rude way, but I don’t beat around the bush. I just state it plainly. 3. She gets worked up and throws a little fit, and I respond with some AM and a smile. I’m in a great mood and her response bounces off me. 4. She won’t have it. This frustrates her. She tells me this makes her feel like I’m treating her like a child, that I think she is stupid. Acting like a child? Yes. Stupid? No. She says she isn’t being heard and isn’t being considered. Again, my plan was better. She joined me in it and enjoyed herself. 5. She holds on to this for a couple days, keeps trying to engage me about it. I end up DEER-ing a little bit and when I notice I try to disengage. Sometimes this means removing myself because she is very stubborn about it. 6. I try the “I understand how you feel” and the “I love you, don’t worry” lines but she wants an apology and wants to hear me say I won’t do this again. I refuse to apologize for her feelz and tell her the next time she acts like this I will probably find it just as funny. I broke frame when I got tired of her pushing and got frustrated when she wouldn’t shut up as I’m trying to go to sleep.

My guess is she isn’t having AM and continuing to push because my frame hasn’t been as strong. Alcohol was involved (on her part) and that could play a role.

Besides all the usual work to build and maintain frame, any other advice for this? What do you do when she keeps pushing for acknowledgment that she has been wronged when she clearly hasn’t? This is also the emotional time of the month which is when we usually have our shit shows. Less so after MRP, but it is the time I’m most tested.

What action should I be taking here?

[–]SteelSharpensSteelMRP MODERATOR1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Less I love you's. Why? Because they are not expressions of your contentment in your marriage, but rather you are saying ILY to supplicate her. Worse, she KNOWS it. She can hear it in the tone of your voice. Hell, I can hear it in the tone of your post.

You need more STFU in your life. STFU and frame.

And perhaps next time, when you are planning your social calendar, you make a plan, then you get her input on dates. I assume you like your wife and she adds value to your life.

[–]ineedapill71 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you for the reply. I agree that a lack of frame is why this thing spiraled.

I do like her, she does add value. I see where I went wrong in resulting communication, but I’m still not certain about what kicked it off, why the fact that I initially held frame and gave a little AM set her off the way it did.

What does it mean when AM is taken as offensive? I wasn’t milking it, just sort of cocked my head at her response and went broken record.

[–]BostonBrakeJobRoTY1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There is no lack of frame. You spelled your frame out right here:

I do like her, she does add value. I see where I went wrong in resulting communication, but I’m still not certain about what kicked it off, why the fact that I initially held frame and gave a little AM set her off the way it did.

So "your frame" (right now) is that you like her. You value her. And you're able to see why she didn't "hear" your I love you's. And you can own it.

You're also still mulling the non-event over, trying to figure out the how and why of it. Am I right to say that's because you want to avoid it happening again in the future?

The only possible why here that really matters is that she's picking up on your anxiety about her mood swings and outbursts. She senses the lack of confidence you feel as a result of her outbursts. And she's stuck with a Nice Guy trying to fix her feelz, instead of a fun guy guiding her feelz.

Don't get lost in all those she's though, this is still about the work that could be left within yourself. You decide if there's any weight to it. The whys aren't a road map to her overall happiness, even though that may end up being a byproduct. But you may be able to use them as they come to spot your weak areas.

A woman's craving for a masculine man makes them a perfect fit for the job of putting up road signs on our paths. Their insecurities cause them to attempt putting up road blocks. Learn to read the signs until you become an experienced navigator, and push through the blocks until they become fun little hurdles on your trip.

What does it mean when AM is taken as offensive?

A month from now, would you really care what the answer to this question is?

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

  1. I try the “I understand how you feel” and the “I love you, don’t worry” lines but she wants an apology and wants to hear me say I won’t do this again. I refuse to apologize for her feelz and tell her the next time she acts like this I will probably find it just as funny. I broke frame when I got tired of her pushing and got frustrated when she wouldn’t shut up as I’m trying to go to sleep.

Going off of your write-up, it sounds like you're just minimizing and dismissing her feelings. If you're dropping the “I understand how you feel” and the “I love you, don’t worry” lines after a shit testing marathon then you've lost the battle. Those phrases are reserved only for when she's operating in your frame.

This dynamic is about power and trust. She knows a forced apology is meaningless and she wants you to give in, so she took to testing your boundaries until you broke frame. She wouldn't shut up when you were trying to go to sleep because she doesn't feel like she has a better option to communicate with you. She wants more power in the relationship because she doesn't trust you to hear what she has to say. That's reflective of poor leadership.

While it's entirely possible that this dynamic is all shit testing and emotional bullshit, chances are your wife has at least one honest concern that you are ignoring. Remember, her feelings are 100% real and authentic to her and they define her reality. That's the frame she is in, and until you give her a better one to be in she's going to struggle. Control the frame.

So the main question I have is, why would you entertain hysterical bullshit on her terms?

Don't get me wrong; you're not her fucking therapist. There's a big difference between accepting or understanding her feelings and making yourself responsible for causing them or fixing them. However, a little troubleshooting goes a long way. If she's acting like a child, teach her as you would a child. Instead of entering her frame you should set boundaries, start calling bullshit, and be proactive. Train her.

Set boundaries. Is she trying to have a serious conversation when she's drunk? Is she being disrespectful? Is she being hysterical? Don't have the discussion. She is going to test those boundaries, so be prepared to maintain them. If she's being reasonable and respectful, you can choose to give her your attention.

Start calling bullshit. If she's driving for an apology, tell her a forced apology is meaningless. If she's focused on blaming you and bitching about your actions, point out that she's not talking about her feelings at all. When people talk about their feelings they say, "I'm scared" or "I'm angry." If she's being disrespectful, tell her "that's rude."

Be proactive. This conversation is happening on her terms right now and you're forced to react, which is a shitty frame to operate from. Controlling the frame of the conversation gives you the opportunity to sift through the bullshit and train her. Only give her your attention and listen if she's playing by your rules. Saying, "honey, you brought up the other day that you feel X. I want to hear you out" doesn't make you a poor captain. Being unable to have that conversation and navigate it on your terms makes you a poor captain.

Train her.

[–]ineedapill71 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you. I’ve read through this three times now and I think you are spot on.

I believe I am minimizing and dismissing her feelings, she has overtly told me this. She feels she isn’t being heard and says the reason is because I’m not admitting what I did was wrong. Somewhere along the line I am fucking up my frame or maybe my application of AM.

I haven’t been able to unfuck this situation yet but I’m trying.

There's a big difference between accepting or understanding her feelings and making yourself responsible for causing them or fixing them.

I’m struggling with this. Struggling to know how to do this without bending or DEERing. I do tell her I’m listening, I let her talk, and I say I understand. But when I don’t bow and apologize, she starts the shit again. Maybe more empathy, a bit communication from me about her feelings...

I thought I was doing exactly this with AM and inviting her to join me when this started, but she took it personal.

So much to learn. So much to un-learn.

[–]part_wolfPotential Wild Card[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Re-read WISNIFG. It sounds like you’re not ready for that conversation, but a good starting point is some discovery and recognition to build a rapport. You have to be very straightforward about establishing the purpose of the conversation. Tone is everything. If you start out with an assertive tone rather than a passive or aggressive one, you’ll get a better result.

Arguing about the facts, assigning blame, taking a position and justifying or defending it, or just straight up slinging mud is less likely to happen if you control the conversation. You have the right to not to take a position in a conversation.

[–]saintraker0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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