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[–]MMDT[S] 38 points39 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

(This post copied from TheRedPill subreddit)

Highlights:

• Female mice housed with castrated males have higher stress levels.

• Female mice housed with castrated males actively avoid their housing partner when provided with a refuge.

• We suggest that females actively avoid males with low levels of testosterone, and that their surrounding social partners can affect their physiology.

study: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.physbeh.2019.112678

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To read the full paper for free:

To read the full paper go to sci-hub.tw and paste the full url (the doi one I put above) into the search box. I wont link it directly in case it is against rules.

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Interesting notes:

  1. There should be little reproductive cost with being around infertile males - the females have no risk of getting pregnant and the male rats were not acting sexually towards them. But the females still were stressed out by their presence.

  2. The study looked at 3 groups of rats: fertile, totally castrated, and vasectomised. Despite having no way of knowing (unless pheremones come into play?), the female rats were also stressed out by vasectomised male rats with no visible castration.

  3. They measure 'cost-of-reproduction' to females as amount of stress hormones they experience. Femaels around alphas had low stress, and females around low-rank males had higher stress. Just by observing stress levels of females around you one might be able to observe your perceived rank. Additionally shit tests could be considered a stress-relief mechanism for the female; if you pass then their stress (cortisol) will go down.

One such measure that is used as an indicator of the costs of reproduction, inter alia, is glucocorticoid (GC) stress hormones. Male mating behaviour has been demonstrated to increase female GC levels in primates through sexual coercion and aggression (Muller et al. 2007; Thompson et al. 2010) and changes in male rank (Beehner et al. 2005; Carnegie et al. 2011). Non-preferred mates may also induce stress in females. This has been demonstrated in a bird, the socially monogamous Gouldian finch (Erythrura gouldiae ) , where hens paired with poor -quality cocks had higher levels of circulating corticosterone (Griffith et al. 2011). While it is well established that GC stress hormones play crucial adaptive roles in fetal development (Baxter and Rousseau 1979), prolonged high secretion can also have suppressive effects on female reproductive physiology and behaviour (Tilbrook et al. 2000; Wingfield and Sapolsky 2003) and increase susceptibility to disease (Sapolsky et al. 2000). Prenatal maternal stress can additionally have long-term consequences for offspring (Lemaire et al. 2000; Maccari et al. 2003; Yang et al. 2006; Tamashiro et al. 2009).

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h/t to https://twitter.com/DegenRolf/status/1170276714406121472

He has the best twitter feed on science of psychology, sex, behaviour, psychopaths, lies/truth, big 5, etc, so give him a follow.

[–]huggiesdsc21 points22 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

Neat. It mentions that males can measure their social standing by the stress levels of nearby females. Oddly, the article implies that looks were not the deciding factor. Females did not determine the value of males by looking at their balls, but rather by accurately assessing their testosterone levels some other way. Maybe those mice had beta personalities. Curious if the females might have been going off size differences, vocal cues, or pheromone scent.

[–]drsherbert8 points9 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Body language

[–]huggiesdsc9 points10 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps. That would imply female mice are affected by personality traits more than looks.

[–]chloridrex8 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The real test is to see how people react to your comment hahaha

[–]huggiesdsc9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is one of the few subs that does not promote an echo chamber. That's what draws me here.

[–]pajeebajeerajee1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This presupposes that he is correct, which itself promotes an echo chamber of a new kind. There is no evidence that mice are in fact using body language.

[–]chloridrex0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m just talking about his sarcastic comment without the /s at the end. Seems like you guys are taking the bait

[–]Carkudo[🍰] 0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

How would a lack of correlation between two factors "imply" the existence of a different correlation?

[–]huggiesdsc0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Drsherbert posed a hypothetical where there is a correlation between those two factors, that's how.

[–]Carkudo[🍰] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

That's not the question I asked. The question is how the lack of such a correlation can imply a completely different one. I get that you personally want proof of the latter correlation (if not the correlation itself) to exist, but that's the opposite of implication - that's fishing in the data, which is both a bad idea and is frowned upon in science.

[–]huggiesdsc0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

>I get that you personally want proof of the latter correlation

Subtle jabs like that are also frowned upon in science, at least insofar as they hinder polite discourse. I have no such hangup. Allow me to explain my point, and then we can revisit the implication that I'm fishing for a result.

Body language is a method of expression. Rather than physical traits like the presence of balls, the hypothetical assumption is that female mice respond to the way male mice express themselves through body language, which I refer to as a factor of the mouse's personality.

The data itself fails to find a correlation between any specific physical traits and female stress levels. The only proven variable that effects female mice is the testosterone levels of the males. The question then becomes how this variable manifests such that other mice can detect it? Drsherbert suggeted that it might be body language. I never said this hypothetical is true, just that if you accept it as a given then the conclusion invariably becomes that personality traits actually do affect attraction between mice. This is a logical consequence of the proposed hypothetical. I don't think any aspect of my logic warrants your criticism.

[–]Carkudo[🍰] 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

the conclusion invariably becomes

You're said as much twice now. I asked you to motivate that, not just repeat yourself. Ironically, your failure to do that does actually imply that your assumption is not rationally motivated, and I bet you cannot spot the difference : >

[–]huggiesdsc0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Oh this is that kind of conversation. You're just riled up, looking to insult me. I literally just succeeded at explaining my logic. You're having trouble following along, but that's not a failure on my part.

[–]rest_me1232 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Pheromones

[–]huggiesdsc1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Possibly. I imagine there are social aspects at play as well.

[–]pajeebajeerajee1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The social aspects would be downwind, so to speak, of any other markers like scent. Scent would betray hormone levels independent of behavior, and would be more reliable.

[–]Semen_Emperor0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for the summary

[–]captvic35 points36 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's over for low testosteronecels

[–]ez5519 points20 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It did not even begin for them.

[–]mizesus0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

TRT OR DEATH

[–]Mohamed_Han20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel sympathy for the low testosterone mice

[–]INCELMAN200017 points18 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

RealRob has been saying this shit for a long time on lookism.net, that when he blasts Testosterone women surround him like flies.

[–]Non-Cookie-cutter11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How good looking is he ? Nobody blasts more test than modern ifbb pros and I’m sure women aren’t particularly getting aroused by them.

What blasting test (assuming you control your e2) will do is give you an insane amount of masculinity (low inhib , more aggressive, confident, “dumber “ in a brave way etc) which will definitely make you more attractive to women .

Just hopping on trt and maintaining around 1200 ish test levels (which isn’t healthy or maintable long term and it definitely isn’t trt , but it’s not blasting either so side effects are less ) made a significant change on my social life , so there’s that . For example i ve always trained some sort of fighting sport but always was a pussy in confrontations, now I’m talking shit to much bigger dudes who i know for a fact i cannot take in a fight , and my mouth is getting me in alot pf trouble in uni .

[–]Afrodiziak15 points16 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The fact that the human vemeronasal organ lacks sensory nerve attachments unlike mice I think that the comparison is a bit shallow. Mice have a much greater ability to detect pheromones, so there’s also a high chance of their stress being caused by a perceived illness or even STD due to changes in male pheromones when sterilized or castrated. No idea, but this would be something interesting to test. So far it’s hard to eliminate uncontrolled variables when it comes to testosterone specifically, but a test where either testosterone or pheromones attributed to fertile males vs ones perhaps specific to infertile males to determine female response would be more conclusive.

Source: study Biology and Zoology.

[–]chloridrex1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Following your profile, you seem like a reliable source of information. Congratulations on the studies. What is your endgame?

[–]Afrodiziak7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m ultimately shooting for environmental management/eco engineering with the goal of reducing the number of human dependent species and increasing biodiversity in remaining areas of wilderness, but in terms of women I’m absolutely hopeless lol

Blackpill science is extremely extensive and well proven, and I find it fascinating since never before in my life have I seen folks so vehemently disagree about fundamental aspects of human biology (those folks being bluepillers I mean). If many folks agree we are animals, wouldn’t it make sense we acted like them too? The physiological and psychological processes involved in human attraction is unique to our species but is ultimately driven by predictable and well recorded factors; almost all of which being superficial and based on previously heavily selected traits good for overall survival (e.g. athletic build, symmetrical features, strong bone structure, wide hips, etc)

Virtually every attractive trait a human has can be boiled down to having some evolutionary advantage in either increasing survival or flaunting physical fitness and good health. Hell, just having blemish-free skin and a straight smile would have you considered to be a strapping lad back in the day, and grooming has been relevant in humanity since the dawn of our species.

I think a good place to point to is some resources and books on sexual dimorphism in hominids to get a solid grasp of how obvious, yet impactful basic sexual traits are in terms of even modern understandings of attractiveness; however, as I’m in a youth hostel right now I don’t have the resources on me lol, but lemme know in case you wanna go down that rabbit hole :)

[–]FrankBurly_9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe if those mice would work on themselves and take a shower...

[–]TheTyke3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Extremely cruel to harm the Mice like that. Evil to do so. They are living beings like we are and all others. All beings think and feel, as science itself shows. Even if they didn't it's still wrong to harm or kill them. Respect, Love and Care for all Life.

[–]VowOfPoverty0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

‘Think positive about yourself, situations and the future.’

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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