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A monogamous union between a man and a woman is the building block of western civilization. It goes something like man+woman -> family -> village -> city -> country -> civilization. This has been recognized for 1000s of years, before even Aristotle put it into words.

For high-level civilization to exist, it must necessarily restrict sexual instincts. Few folks made this observation, but more prominently Freud who said:

The tendency on the part of civilization to restrict sexual life is no less clear than its other tendency to expand the cultural unit.

He also says that civilization institutes sexual taboos around things like incest, non-hetero sexuality, children sexuality, but most strikingly it also tightly controls hetero relationships,

Present day civilization makes it plain that it will only permit sexual relationships on the basis of a solitary, indissoluble bond between one man and one woman, and that it does not like sexuality as a source of pleasure in its own right and is only prepared to tolerate it because there is so far no substitute for it as a means of propagating the human race.

All manifestations of sexuality are damaging to civilization and are inhibited by default, but hetero monogamy is a necessary evil.

We always allowed minor transgressions here and there, because society can’t keep a lid on sexual instinct that tightly; nevertheless, monogamous relationship have been the gold standard, the ideal for as long as we can trace back civilized life.

Well… It was the ideal, until recently. Today folks think that we can allow a great degree of disorganization and freedom in sexual life, and still somehow maintain strict organization in all other spheres of life.

Thus you get yoga practicing vegan office workers that fuck like whores (or otherwise fail to do so) and have about a million mental health issues. But I digress.

Please dismantle my tradcon fantasy, and explain why heterosexual monogamy is no longer ideal or relevant.


[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes40 points41 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

This is the first time in human history where controlling reproduction is possible.

We have no fucking clue how that will impact society and past civilizations tell us nothing of this.

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Disagree. The romans and egyptians both had contraception.

[–]pizza_tron0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

And how did it impact society and what did they tell of this?

Also, what were their success rates in preventing birth? What were their methods?

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We know roman contraceptive worked consistently and came from a natural resource. However we also know this resource was harvested to extinction and can't be found or reproduced. However it was widely used for about six centuries so it didn't lead to any dramatic collapse, since Rome lasted in one form or another for centuries after even without counting Byzantium.

I think more important than contraception is numbers. The romans were big on capturing women using men who had mandatory service they were paid for. So men had discipline to kill other men then take their women. They didn't need to compete to get laid provided they didn't die messily because women were constsntly going into the system that simultaniously enriched men.

The grisly truth is war brides and military conflict keep things more stable than any civil policy. WWII saw like 300k surviving Americans take on war brides and bring them home. Canadians and other allied forces did the same even as contemporary propaganda said those soldiers were waiting for their women at home, who obviously had less men to pick from between foreign women and machine guns.

The concept of a population of dudes who arent dying in large numbers and are trying to all work a domestic population isn't really a good dynamic for satisfied men.

[–]Bekiala5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is a really good point.

[–]Mr-LBN3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This is the first time in human history where controlling reproduction is possible.

You sure? Last time I checked, birth control goes back a few thousand years.

[–]angels-fanCrooning over hellscapes-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

How so?

[–]Mr-LBN-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Acacia leaves, honey, crocodile dung, miscellaneous herbs, lead, mercury.

Some kinda ancient concoctions.

[–]AndiSLiuNAHALT2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And, in some tribes, infanticide and castration.

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like incurable yeast infections waiting to happen

[–]sussinmysussness1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

well we know at the very least that places with a more intelligent population and free access to birth control have negative birth rates almost if not everywhere. the opposite is also true, look at Africa and the Middle East. what this means globally on a longer scale is anyone's guess.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think eventually we will be able to give some sort of extremely safe and reversible vasectomy to pubescent boys and that is going to change things very drastically.

[–]MBCpy0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

True, we probably will, but I don’t think society will, as eugenics are hardly ethical. I only think people should be forced to be unreproductive if they have disabilities, and I don’t mean just like normal autism, I mean a real genetic concern.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

How is it eugenics?

[–]MBCpy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, the act of vasectomy on prepubescent boys could and would definitely be used for a form of eugenics if put in practice.

[–]sussinmysussness0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

who decides where that line is and why?

[–]SmeggingRightGot flair? Hell yeah!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the first time in human history where controlling reproduction is possible.

Good point. None of us know how this is going to shake out.

[–]gregorystevenssNo Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

‘Since the discovery of oral contraceptives, this fear [being exploited in bed] has reached almost hysterical proportions. Whole books are devoted to the question whether a man needs to worry about woman's sexual demands, and, if so, to what extent – and at the same time, advertising has discovered new opportunities to make money by selling men advice on how to achieve sexual dexterity. Previously, woman was always to a certain extent at his mercy. Now she is suddenly in control. She can have as many children as she wishes. She can even select the father (if possible rich). If she has no intention of having children, she can indulge in intercourse as often as it appears advantageous to her.... Contrary to men's fear, women do not, however, weigh one man against another and choose the most virile – far from it, as she herself is not all that keen on sex. In view of that, and provided all other conditions are equal, she is likely to prefer the less potent man because she can always blackmail him with her intimate knowledge of his weakness.’ [1971]

(I believe that’s how women act around other women -brag about getting sex from Chad for pleasure and have the ability of saving up those experiences to use for their own personal fulfilment when they stop needing pleasure in their love life)

[–]TrueReligionGenesLooxist12 points13 points  (41 children) | Copy Link

The reason it is necessary is because it ensures the participation of the highest % of males in society. If enough males drop out, it becomes too much dead weight to support. If enough males dont put effort into society, then instability will follow. I dont see how things like advancements in technology can alleviate this fundamental part of human/primate society.

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man17 points18 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

Exactly this. Men are in a bad state right now. Dropping out of the game left and right. Contributing little to nothing. Why work for the betterment of society when you have nobody who'll be thankful for it? It's selfish, but then so is the destruction of the family unit in favour of hedonistic lifestyles in general. The rise of incel and MGTOW culture is going to be devastating economically.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train9 points10 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Why work for the betterment of society when you have nobody who'll be thankful for it?

  1. Who says people have ever worked for the “betterment of society?” You work to make the top richer.

  2. Why is that women must bear the burden of validating men’s provider instinct?

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

  1. That may be a consequence of work but it's not the intended effect. We work to survive, always have. That a large portion goes to the elite is what makes communism sound good on paper. "What if we were the sole beneficiaries of our labour?" Sorry, that's too simple a model, doesn't work that way when you're dealing with millions/billions of people and not one of them has the exact same capabilities of another.

  2. Very few women see that as a burden. Male provider instinct is an adaptation to female sexual selection in favour of it, and it's mostly been a good thing. Most of what we've accomplished as a species is because men are willing to go to spectacular lengths to get laid. I could just as easily ask "Why must men bear the burden of providing for women?" Because it's a productive thing to do for our species and as such our brains are wired to make it feel rewarding. No harm no foul either way.

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater4 points5 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Thats the thing. Women don't have to bear the burden. But neither do men.

And thus we have our current impasse.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train9 points10 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

its impasse for the bottom barrel men who have squeaked by for the last several centuries by exploiting the restriction of women’s rights to BB a wife who had no other choice.

The rest of the male population will be fine. And that population is fuckload more than 20%, so spare me.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Just stop being bottom barrel, and shut the fuck up

Are you one of those folks that also unironically tells poor people to stop being poor? My god.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

”unironically” is not a word. Fucking stop using it.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry I should have said inironically, contra-ironically, anti-ironically, a-ironically, or de-ironically.

[–]FightGuard0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

How old are you?

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Relevance?

[–]FightGuard 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

Are you old and bitter or young and bitter?

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have nothing to be bitter about.

[–]FightGuard 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

U hate men.

[–]hrnsn1230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And that population is fuckload more than 20%, so spare me.

61-70% of 18-40 year old Japanese men consider themselves as herbivore (negative term, but otherwise comparable to MGTOW) and it is hurting the economy very badly. The future of Japan looks even less promising because baby's aren't born that should be contributed to society. The state is starting to fix it by playing the role of a match maker. My prediction is that we will get something similar in the West, just with more violence.

[–]whyhelloclarice1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

People work to improve their lives, not to make their bosses richer. Although the latter may be true to some degree, it's not WHY people work. They work to provide a comfortable life for themselves and their family. No family = less motivation to work harder.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Then why does the ceo get paid 400X more than you despite the fact that you do all the work?

I concede that people work because they have to and hopefully they can find something that makes those 40 hours bearable if not somewhat enjoyable. But his argument was that men work for “the betterment of society.” Making shareholder rich and taking a piddly cut for yourself to buy material things for a bunch of entitled brats and an ungrateful wife isn’t the betterment of society.

[–]whyhelloclarice1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not disputing that. But people don't work to make their bosses richer. That's just a side effect. People work to improve their lives and their loved ones lives, which betters society. When you and everyone around you provides a good life for their kids, the crime rate is reduced. People are more trustful of each other. People care about their property more. And so on.

Just because you don't like your wife and kids doesn't make it true for everyone. Most people enjoy their families.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough.

I’m a woman by the way. I just phrased it that way because I hear a lot of men on this sub complaining about this.

[–]whyhelloclarice0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Gotcha. I'm a woman, too. I hear men complaining about that (women being ungrateful), too, but often it seems like they want to have their cake and eat it, too. That is, they want a trad wife but aren't willing to make any sacrifices themselves to be trad husbands. It works both ways.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is true.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why work for the betterment of society when you have nobody who'll be thankful for it?

So you can have a really sweet ride and a bass boat?

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most men only buy nice cars as a status symbol though, because status symbols are attractive to women. Now a fishing boat on the other hand would be pretty bitchin just to have, I'll give ya that.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Cars, maybe, but pickup trucks? Equipped with "truck nutz," lol?

[–]MBCpy0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

‘Why work for the betterment of society when you have nobody who’ll be thankful for it?’

If you work a normal 9 to 5 job I see what you mean. But if you are a cutting edge scientist or an inventor it won’t just be your family benefiting from your hard work, it will be the world. People aren’t always driven by their families want.

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not always, no, but often enough that it's going to cause a serious problem in the future if we aren't careful and correct our course.

[–]MBCpy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most of the time, being childless makes more money, as you have more disposable income and time. In the UK, for gay and lesbians couple, they call ‘pink pound’ for older L and G couples making lots of money and having disposable income from not having children. Even if you are heterosexual, couldn’t that be a bit of an incentive?

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is an incentive, and with a growing luxury market that's part of the reason people are tending to have children later. But having children is still one of our most fundamental biological instincts. People are not going to stop reproducing altogether, not of their own volition anyway.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 1993-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

the family unit was destroyed because it harmed women and children. we are never going back to that cancer. period. men should find a purpose that doesnt involve treating women as prizes to be won. that kind of dehumanization needs to end now. you aint owed shit.

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That is as wrong an argument as one can make. Historically men and women were cooperative and the advanced society we live in today is because that cooperation was good for children. I've seen your spiel before, you're either unhinged or a troll. Either way you're not contributing anything here.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19930 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

whether i am contributing or not is not up to you, amigo. OP wanted opinions, he got them. you dont get to decide what people think and post here, pal. manure sphere is over there.

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you ever do anything besides project? I'm not saying you can't think or post what you want, I'm saying it's demonstrably wrong and you just come across as a nutjob for it.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19930 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

im not wrong and the only ones projecting here are pathetic manlets angry at women for not wanting to touch their peen.

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Whatever you say babe.

[–]katymarxPurple Pill Woman4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Make them fight to the death for glory in a Thunderdome. Establish a "mating season" and have males fight one another in an intricately choreographed murder-dance. The fight will last until the loser submits, no food or sleep until victory!!!

https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/14334/20150427/species-vs-species-males-fight-for-female-attention.htm

[–]katymarxPurple Pill Woman-2 points-1 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It would be hilarious to watch incels fighting like this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsMx-nT1aPM

[–]TrueReligionGenesLooxist9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yaaassss queen hehe u r too funny

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They’d be too scared to show up

[–]xXxINCELFAGGOTxXxj6q34fdtfcw3520 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

This shit already happens in nightclubs.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Incels don't go to nightclubs

[–]xXxINCELFAGGOTxXxj6q34fdtfcw3520 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You'd be surprised.

[–]Moraulf23211 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This thread is hilarious. I work 60 hours most weeks and have precious few creature comforts. If you work 40 hours a week and live in a house and have nice stuff and you think capitalism is oppressing you, you really have not met the people capitalism is oppressing.

[–]LeafFallGround0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

And I work 45-55 hours a week and share a two-bedroom apartment with three people, I just have a dog and no hobbies other than playing video games I already own. Assuming you live in the US, we don't have the worst system, in fact, it's closer to good than it is to bad. But it doesn't work for lots of single people, tons of single people. I actually find it hilarious that you believe your lifestyle is so easy to achieve. I'd kill to be singing the tune that you are right now.

[–]Moraulf2320 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

To be clear, my lifestyle wasn’t easy to achieve and I don’t think it was all skill on my part. That’s kind of my point.

[–]wtknightGen X Slacker18 points19 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Advances in birth control and safe sex have made casual sex much less risky than in the past, and there is increasingly a narrative about how women being able to fulfill their sexual desires in the same way that men can is "empowering." I find sex with strangers personally distasteful, but this is just a me thing and my need for emotional connections and my lack of desire to want to be too physically close to an almost complete stranger. I don't really see a substantial harm in others engaging in the behavior if they so choose, and I still think there will always be a substantial number of women out there who also desire emotional connections before engaging in sex. If certain men benefit more than others due to the increase in casual sex, then those men who don't benefit are going to have to adapt and improve themselves. I don't see how any of the traditional monogamous structures are necessary until there is a need in people's lives for them to actually have children, as having monogamous parents does benefit kids.

[–]eboy4hire15 points16 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

To me it's kind of like game theory. If everyone's having casual sex and you want something monogamous, you're at a disadvantage. You may as well engage in casual sex because everyone else is making a mockery of your monogamous nature.

[–]wtknightGen X Slacker10 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's easy to find a monogamous woman who doesn't like casual sex with just a little searching. If you expand your search worldwide, then it's super easy. I think that most men overestimate the number of women, even in the west, who are engaging in casual sex.

[–]StBernard20002 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know anyone having casual sex and I live in the West. Maybe people on TV have casual sex but it isn’t that way in real life. People watch TV to escape reality so people think that everyone is having casual sex. It’s ridiculous. Most people want a connection not random sex.

[–]acetylcysteinemescaline0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

How old are you? I’m early 30s and casual sex is all around.

[–]whyhelloclarice0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Two out of my 6 closest female friends are having casual sex. The other four are in monogamous relationships that have lasted 3-7 years so far.

[–]LotBuilder45 points46 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I don’t disagree. Any functioning society needs a selfless slave class to do the work that needs to be done. I just choose not to spend my time on earth being that guy.

[–]goneaway2thewind3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Cheers to that brother

[–]ComeinoNo Pill4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yep, relationships are outdated and are in no way beneficial for individuals. There is no point in having LTR.

[–]LotBuilder9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

They make sense if you want kids. I have kids. I love kids. Wish their mom was bare able but that wasn’t in the cards.

[–]ComeinoNo Pill7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't have kids and I never want to have any so what you said makes sense.

[–]LotBuilder8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then a ltr makes no sense for you. 6 month honeymoon period max then move on. That’s only if you want to bother with that.

[–]ComeinoNo Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I was still on the search for a SO (I was blind to the fact that I don't actually need one and that I was peer pressured to be with someone) my dating pool was filled with men that want to marry and eventually have kids which was a deal-breaker for me and lowered my choices to a very niche group of incompatible people. Contrary to the the OP's post heterosexual monogamy is still the mainstream ideal for most people.

You are right about LTR being for the sake of children although you can raise kids on your own if you have enough money. Unfortunately for childfree people relationships are of little to no use besides companionship.

[–]PostModernCommieAnarcha-Femimnist (They, Them)-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But what about...wEsTeRn CiViLiZaTiOn?!?!?

[–]OatsGYOWMGTOW[🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Our kids can pick up the pieces once all the feminists die childless and the religious nutjobs become king of the hill again.

[–]UTC240 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn, I got headache reading that sentence. Hope it's not permanent.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What are you defining as western civilization? Are we talking the modern nation states organized post world war 2? Are we talking European modelled civilizations? Are we talking christianity? Or are we talking civilizations that can trace their origins back to the Roman's and Greeks? Cause they all are called Western Civilization. As for your question, I'm going to assume you mean the final definition.

1) Marriage and monogamy are not the original product of just western civilization. Most civilizations from Europe to asia to the Americas had either the similar concept of marriage or the idea of committed monogamy. It would be foolish to call a concept that multiple civilizations had as purely western.

2) Greek and Roman civilizations (arguably the original and greatest non modern western civilizations) were absolutely not monogamous. They had marriages of course. But they still fucked slaves and prostitutes any chance they could. The Greeks even went so far as to claim homosexual relationships superior and purer than heterosexual ones.

3) The nuclear family model is not inherently western even, but more post war American. Yes, the father/mother/children model is widespread. But for most of human history they did not live seperate, childrearing was also assisted by the extended family. Most places would have grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins all living in close proximity. It is only recently that the idea was that two parents should do it independently of the rest of the extended family.

4) Monogamy is not declining in the west. Lifelong Monogamy hasnt been a feature in decades. Serial monogamy has been implemented successfully for several generations now without issue. Actual polygamy is still a fringe concept that most do not participate in. And sleeping around is not a relationship so is not polygamy.

[–]reluctantly_red14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Guys recognizing that the dutiful workhorse strategy sucks doesn't mean they don't want relationships. It just means guys need to follow a different route to these relationships.

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill25 points26 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think ppl misjudge the universal success of monogamy as due to its stability. When perhaps is due to its expansive qualities. Imagine a multitude of sexual mores in different cultures across a continent. But one culture forces its ppl to operate at full “dad society” capacity. One for one, everybody breeds; if you don’t you’re a loser. This population growth exceeds the infrastructure of the culture and so requires expansion via purging surplus folk in wars with neighbors. The whole continent will soon be lousy with this culture simply bc of the dysgenic Zerg Rush it enables. It’s kind of monstrous really.

A society that can defend itself with more than manpower should be free to find more noble pursuits. You vastly overestimate how many men WANT the dad life when left to their own devices. Many are happy to just bum around and live free. Many Women want different things than to be domestic moms, and we are better off both bc some of those women are smart and competent, and women like that often make bad mothers anyway.

I like it how it is. Most ppl do too things are actually pretty chill.

[–]ReversedGif6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not being out-bred, conquered, and killed by your neighboring countries is stability...

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Internal Vs External stability. People give monogamy credit for “internal” stability that should properly be assigned to external performance.

And now Big standing land armies are obsolete for nation-level conflicts among superpowers given nukes.

What does that mean for fully enforced “at capacity” monogamy especially in a world where automation is coming for most low skilled roles.

What was once beneficial given the nature of cultural conflict is now PERHAPS a dysgenic liability.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a really interesting and well-thought answer.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sensible men are getting better jobs and seeking feminine women who value marriage in Europe or elsewhere. The west is degenerating because of uncontrolled female hypergamy

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

who value marriage in Europe

Like, a destination wedding in Paris?! Sounds cool; sign me up.

[–]GayLubeOilTrue Red Pill42 points43 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Instead of promoting monogomus relationships and healthy stable families let's suck as much money out of our native populations by telling them to live ultra hedonic and unsustainable lifestyles.

When their birthrate falls bellow replacement levels because they are too busy masterbating to reproduce let's import people from the third world to replace them.

In otherwords let's sacrifice our native population for cash. If you disagree you hate capitalism and are a Nazi Communist or religious extremist.

[–]Mayhzon12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The unspeakable truth that must be told.

[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Never change GLO.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The native population isn’t white.

[–]GayLubeOilTrue Red Pill19 points20 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You mean to say that unrestricted migration of outsiders was fatal for the native Americans and pretty much every other population? Is that the point you're making?

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow. You’re not as dumb as everyone says.

[–]Sazalol0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

how can you support trp if you support tradcon views

[–]rus9384Misanthrope3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How does this C OP's V?

[–]GayLubeOilTrue Red Pill5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He should renounce his views or we stomp our feet and yell "you are litteraly a white male!" Untill he does.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

The ideal that sexuality is inherently evil is mental illness. I don't have an answer for how to make society "great" again because it never was. Tradcons tell me shit like "oh you think women had it bad in history talk to your grandparents". My dad's 70, he told me that the narrative of women being happy when they were expected to be wives and little else is bullshit.

The whole phenomena of young unhappy men living in a failed system will not be solved by giving them state mandated gfs. I don't believe in restricting the autonomy and agency of ANYONE to uphold "society".

That being said, I do agree that monogamy is important in society. However, if the only way we can make more people enter relationships is to strip one group of their ability to be independent (ie the tradcons that think we should go back to a time where women were dependent on men to survive), then we need to reorganize society as a whole.

I also don't believe that men should be forced into the "head"/leader role. Not everyone is psychologically capable of having power over their partner, and not everyone WANTS to. I can see why some men choose to go their own way, and I see why they are strongly against slaving away for a bitter, frigid wife and the two and a half kids that may or may not be his.

TLDR: going back to tradcon ways is just a short term fix. "Just repress everyone and make them live out predetermined roles as if they are too stupid to decide for themselves" will only keep people stupid and in the dark for longer. Society is composed of individuals, and individual personal freedom/agency is key to a functioning society.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe in restricting the autonomy and agency of ANYONE to uphold "society".

The pimary purpose of civilized society (along with laws, mores... etc) is to restrict autonomy and agency of individuals. That is, yes you have freedom to act anyway you want, given that you do it inside this tiny box. Box represents some pre-agreed set of rules, and the existence of the box is non-negotiable. All we're arguing about here is the size of that box.

For you, not to currently be a sex slave in some harem requires a ton of suppression of sexuality and aggression of some men you'll never even meet, we have to put them in a box, so they don't put you in a smaller one.

ie the tradcons that think we should go back to a time where women were dependent on men to survive

So as a tradcon, that's not my goal or concern. My main concern with this is that we're moving away from monogamy, and we have no good framework to replace it with. We're slowly but surely doing away with LTRs, marriages, classical dating, and replacing it with hookup culture, instant gratification of sexual impulse.

My theory is that its done because hardly anyone has anytime to do anything else. What I would ideally advocate is not ejecting women from a workplace, but incentivizing development of LTRs. This among other important things would include social rejection and shaming of hookup culture, but there's many other things that could be done.

[–]Moraulf2325 points6 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

This is maybe not going to seem like a perfectly on-topic response, but have you ever looked at Bertrand Russell’s ideas about limiting work? Because it seems like another change that is happening is that technology is making independence easier for men and women but economically most people are still having to struggle, and all of that baggage - long hours, college loans, low pay, weak unions, expensive healthcare and weak retirement plans - leave everyone with less motivation to create families and put time into leisure. I think we can pretty much solve most of the things you are worried about by reducing inequality. Maybe. Honestly I’m kinda floating this thought.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe.

I agree. I have strong belief that destruction of social bonds is driven by technological progress far more than feminists or some sinister gay cabal.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I definitely blame the feminists - and many other narrative weavers out there - than technology or the gay cabal. Relentless work is also a major problem, though - but I question the longevity and cohesiveness of a society where leading media can attack huge seats of population regularly, and then when called in it retreat and imply it's just "asking hard questions," etc.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Why would we want to "limit work"? Let's say a researcher is on the trail of finding a cure for cancer. Do we really want to limit the time he's allowed to spend working?

[–]Moraulf2320 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

That’s a good argument. I think my immediate thought is that we want to limit the degree to which that scientist feels that not doing cancer research and instead learning to play the banjo or whatever will ruin his or her life. Nobody should FORCE anyone to stop working, they just should not feel coerced by economic necessity. And honestly, I’m not super worried about the work of genius cutting edge geneticists. I’d like for it not to be the case that low-skill workers have to work in dehumanizing conditions for 80+ hours a week to maintain a sustainable lifestyle. I also think that it might be flawed thinking to imagine that a scientist who works punishingly long hours will be more likely to make a breakthrough than a team of scientists working a pleasantly moderate amount of hours.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Nobody should FORCE anyone to stop working, they just should not feel coerced by economic necessity.

Umm, why not? Most people work out of economic necessity. I sure wasn't digging a post hole today in 85 degree heat for the heck of it! But the job needed to be done, and I needed the money, so ...

What's wrong with that?

[–]Moraulf2320 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I have no problem with you digging a hole if that’s the choice you made, but...

What’s wrong with having to choose between being underpaid for performing alienated labor and terrible economic consequences like homelessness or death by malnutrition?

Everything is wrong with that.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, not wanting to be hungry or homeless is a great motivator, right? Not only does it motivate people to go to work, but work motivates a great many to say, "You know, I think I'd rather do something besides dig post holes," so they go to college or otherwise develop more advanced skills. Maybe they wouldn't do so if the alternative weren't so unpleasant?

[–]Moraulf2320 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Whipping people, threatening to shoot them, and holding family members hostage are also “great motivators”, but violence is wrong. Obviously if everyone did literally nothing ever we would all die, but we live in a society with surplus food and housing that nonetheless has hungry kids and homelessness, and that’s perverse. Also perverse is the reality that there are many jobs that must be done (post-hole dogging is a good example) that are very labor intensive and unpleasant (sorry if you don’t feel this way about it) but pay poorly, because that suggests that there’s no value to hard work or doing what needs to be done - that’s a sucker’s game for people who have failed to advance and thus deserve to live in a state of exhaustion and fear.

This entire way of thinking about human life assumes that all human activity has to be transactional. I don’t see why that’s true. In a technologically advanced society of relative abundance, we can probably figure out a way to maintain productivity without maintaining exploitation. Anyway, as more jobs are automated, we’re going to have to.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

This entire way of thinking about human life assumes that all human activity has to be transactional. I don’t see why that’s true.

Because that is the nature of reality? People work out of necessity, or because they're forced to, or because it benefits them.

In a technologically advanced society of relative abundance, we can probably figure out a way to maintain productivity without maintaining exploitation.

What you call "exploitation" is the simple trading of one man's abilities for another's. Some people have greater abilities and can command a higher rate for their goods or services than others. That's natural and there's nothing wrong with that. The unskilled person's best friend is a robust economy that creates a tight labor market, allowing him to command more for even his rudimentary abilities.

Anyway, as more jobs are automated, we’re going to have to.

We are still many years out from that happening, if it happens at all. Look at BLS data on projected job growth. In the near future, we're going to need a lot of personal care aides, warehouse workers, drivers, foodservice workers, and other people to fill low-level positions. This is good news at a time when college is becoming increasingly unaffordable.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For you, not to currently be a sex slave in some harem requires a ton of suppression of sexuality and aggression of some men you'll never even meet, we have to put them in a box, so they don't put you in a smaller one.

I argue that difference between:

  • "you can't aggress against others and violate the non-aggression principle by kidnapping and enslaving them. We live in a society, so you have to do this"

  • "you can't commit thoughtcrime and say something that disagrees with what the Party and Big Brother have ordained. We live in a society, so you have to do this"

are categorically different. CMV.

By "society's job is to make a cage" logic, the smaller the cage and the more totalitarian family, religion and government are in their treatment of human beings, the better society is at its make-a-cage job, and therefore the better-functioning society is. Why are societies like Afghanistan and North Korea with vastly smaller cages than the United States so much worse on so many metrics of societal well-being and behavior, such as corruption statistics?

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What I would ideally advocate is not ejecting women from a workplace, but incentivizing development of LTRs.

The U.S. government might start by eliminating the benefits it provides to parents who choose to remain single. Encouraging single parenthood is one of its more stupid ideas, IMO.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The ideal that sexuality is inherently evil is mental illness. I don't have an answer for how to make society "great" again because it never was. Tradcons tell me shit like "oh you think women had it bad in history talk to your grandparents". My dad's 70, he told me that the narrative of women being happy when they were expected to be wives and little else is bullshit.

The whole phenomena of young unhappy men living in a failed system will not be solved by giving them state mandated gfs. I don't believe in restricting the autonomy and agency of ANYONE to uphold "society".

This is why I hate tradcons who say "living for your own happiness instead of marrying is bad." They are demanding that people unsuited for a tradcon marriage set themselves on fire--and not even to keep other white people warm, but in the hopes that other white people will possibly be slightly warmer. Me not marrying isn't the reason France is full of Maghrebis and Bantus. 4chan NEETs didn't trash Cologne.

Furthermore, why the blue fuck is it so goddamn mandatory to have infinite population expansion? Yes, Japan has geezers outnumbering the young workers to pay for them, but in light of resource consumption and global warming, isn't a population shrink necessary?. Literally all you need to do is resist UN shills saying "you have a declining population so you should import millions of Africans! If your horses aren't breeding, throw rats into the barn and you'll now have more horses!" Those shills effectively want Japan to be even more overcrowded and have the high crime, low social trust and disease problems like rampant AIDS and antibiotic-resistant diseases that Euro countries that took in lots of immigrants now have. Are we supposed to fuck over future generations because "muh economy, we need kids and immigrants!"?

[–]CainPrice25 points26 points  (50 children) | Copy Link

Monogamous relationships aren't on the way out. We've just made casual sex before you're married okay now, instead of some kind of unspeakably evil sin.

Despite what you read on manosphere websites, no significant number of people are actually forsaking marriage to only have casual sex, or forsaking marriage because they can't have causal sex, or forsaking marriage because other people are having casual sex.

Most people fuck their way through college and get married in their mid to late 20s. The anti-marriage manosphere crowd is an insignificant segment of loser incels and not a real thing. The winner Red Pill men who don't want to get married are a tiny, tiny, tiny segment of men and not a force for change.

Monogamous relationships aren't going anywhere. Society is not failing. Western civilization is not crumbling as monogamy gets replaced by massive orgies.

The only thing that's changed about Western civilization is that the ultra-Christian viewpoint that premarital sex and casual sex are evil sins that will send you straight to hell so nobody should do them and all of society shall shun you if you do has been replaced by the viewpoint that premarital and casual sex are just fine.

So if you think strict Christianity is the bedrock of Western civilization, then sure, civilization is failing. But if you think families and monogamy are the bedrock, then we're doing just fine.

[–]Protocol_ApolloZeus Vult!11 points12 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

“Monogamous relationships aren’t on their way out”

Wouldn’t you say that marriage is on the decline though? And therefore monogamy?

More and more women are single and people are marrying much later.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Monogamy =/= marriage.

Monogamy is one partner for life. Serial monogamy is committed single relationships at a single time. Seeing as how most people date several individuals before finding a life partner, we are the later and not the former.

[–]reddtormtnliv1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is a form of monogamy. But when red pill talks monogamy, they mean one man for one woman. If a civilization does serial monogamy like you say, then the alphas will just take their turn, and other men will be left out.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman6 points7 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Marriage rates declining is a separate issue from that of monogamy and its relative perceived value.

[–]Protocol_ApolloZeus Vult!3 points4 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I’m not debating monogamy’s value- I’m debating whether we are seeing less of it now through marriage.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

We never had marriages where there was 100% monogamy. Wealthy men always had side action or a mistress.

[–]Protocol_ApolloZeus Vult!1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

What are you talking about?

You misunderstood.

I’m using marriage as a metric to judge the prevalence of monogamy and from that, as marriage rates are decreasing I would say so is monogamy.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I am saying the idea of monogamy as an ideal is the same and that men were NOT monogamous in marriage. As other have indicated plenty of cultures were loose with their monogamy because men were not monogamous when married and when not married.

[–]Protocol_ApolloZeus Vult!1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How very disappointing.

Again, you missed the mark. What you are saying is irrelevant to what I asked or what cain said.

Nobody here was debating how monogamous men are.

Meesa thinks you just want to spew your “men are cheaters” rhetoric whenever you see the word monogamy.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hmm. Be disappointed.

[–]Protocol_ApolloZeus Vult!5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

An excellent rebuttal.

[–]PickUpScientistMaroon Pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m using marriage as a metric to judge the prevalence of monogamy

I don't think there is enough correlation between marriage and monogamy to use it as a metric. A majority of married men and women will have extramarital affairs. There is also an increasing amount of monogamous relationships occurring outside of the scope of marriage.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A majority of married men and women will have extramarital affairs.

A majority? I hope you mean "many". Otherwise I'll need to see the source on that data

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Poor and MC men too.

Or misters for those on the DL.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yah they were not as good at hiding it because they would pick a local chick.

[–]reddtormtnliv0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would say there is a case that they are related. If monogamy doesn't have value, then marriage doesn't have value.

[–]PrideInIndividualityLiberal Red Piller9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most people fuck their way through college

Most women fuck their way through college, not men. Men cannot get sex easily.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 23 points24 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

The winner Red Pill men who don't want to get married are a tiny, tiny, tiny segment of men and not a force for change.

How do you explain "enjoy the decline" motto? Isn't that equivalent to throwing up your hands and saying "If women are shitty, I'll be shitty too."

Monogamous relationships aren't going anywhere.

We know for a fact that marriages are declining. I know some argue "but I'm co-habiting with my partner for 30 years yada yada", which would be legit argument if sex-lessnes for males wasn't rising, along with relationship-lessness for females. There's obviously some cultural shifts going on.

IDK, I don't buy the "everything is fine" argument, but I'll consider it.

[–]CainPrice15 points16 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Marriage is not disappearing. It's just trending older.

Age 20-29 women are getting jobs and having casual sex now, instead of getting married at age 22. So they're getting marred at 29, or even into their 30s. As a result of this delay, -some- women are ending up not finding a husband and landing in the "where have all the good men gone" camp, but this is not a huge or alarming number of women. Most women who want to get married end up married.

Age 20-29 men are divided into two camps. Some have causal sex during their youth then get married older. A small but not significant portion of these men choose to not marry but to instead continue having casual partners. But that's a trivial amount of men. Most men who were part of the casual sex culture growing up end up married.

The other camp of age 20-29 men do not have the opportunity to join the casual sex culture. But still end up married eventually, just older due to the lack of availability of women looking to marry them at 22 like we saw in the 60s and 70s. A tiny, insignificant portion of these men end up bitter for not being chosen in their youth and forsake marriage. Another portion of these men aren't marryable due to significant physical or social detriments and end up unmarried. But again, these are not the majority of men. Most men get married.

Marriage isn't disappearing, just trending older on account of casual sex and women having careers.

[–]MattcwuJust sticking up for the oppressed and voiceless women11 points12 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Marriage isn't disappearing

It isn't disappearing, just becoming significantly less common.
Perhaps "disappearing" is too unclear for you. Instead OP could have said, the percent of the population that is getting is a number that is steadily declining. If this decline continues indefinitely, that number would hypothetically be 0.

[–]CainPrice3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

The actual stat is that half of the adult population of the U.S. is unmarried today. However, if we look at the 1960s-1970s, about 70% of the adult population of the U.S. was married. So if we look at the statistics, it looks like "Holy shit! Nobody is getting married any more!"

The adult population of the U.S. is everybody age 18 or older.

Today, 18-29 year olds are having casual sex, and most 18-29 year old women have jobs. People aren't never marrying. They're just marrying later.

Today, when we include all people age 18-29 in our survey calculation, 50% of the adult U.S. population is currently not married. But that doesn't mean that 50% of the U.S. population will never marry. Most of the 18-year-olds you're looking at today who aren't married are probably going to end up married. They're just going to get married at age 30 instead of age 22.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The average American woman’s age at first marriage is either 26 or 27, I can’t remember at the moment. Most women are with the man they will eventually marry by their early 20s.

The idea that most women spend their 20s slutting around is not really true.

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most women are with the man they will eventually marry by their early 20s.

Not my experience. Most women are in a series of monogamous relationships in their 20s but not necessarily being the forever gf from 20-29. Frankly everyone I know who married before 25 is divorced now.

Just ME.

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Total number of marriages per year have also gone down, this is not just a twisting of the statistics based on demographic changes.

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just like total number of divorces, you need to take into account the people who are/aren't marrying multiple times.

My grandfather went through a series of wives after my grandmother died, inflating those stats quite a bit. (And yeah, they took all his money, but the guy couldn't cook a slice of toast.)

[–]CainPrice0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

We're in the time-will-tell stage of that.

By the time the casual sex generation who grew up in the early 2000s are all 50, if an unusual number of people from that generation aren't married, OP was right. He might be. You never know.

But today, we're looking at a bunch of kids and assuming that if they're not married at age 22 like their grandparents were, they'll never be married.

[–]MattcwuJust sticking up for the oppressed and voiceless women0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I disagree with your interpretation of the data. If I am reading you correctly, you understand that there is a currently a large gap between marriage rates today and marriage rates 50 years ago. You predict this gap will be filled by people in their 20's deciding to get married in their 30's.

I however, predict this large gap will remain in place. The chart I am looking at does not show a cyclical pattern, but a downward trending one.
I do not understand the argument that we are just a decade away from a huge reversal in the trend that will undo decades of downward trending.

Your argument would have made as much sense in 1970 as it does today, but if you predicted in 1970, that the marriage rates would balance out within a decade, your prediction would be wrong.

[–]reddtormtnliv0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It used to be 1 in 10 men would never marry, or about that. According to https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/09/24/record-share-of-americans-have-never-married/st-2014-09-24-never-married-08/ it's more close to 1 in 4. Marriage is on the decline, but there are people still getting married later like you say.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This isn’t challenging OP’s view that monogamy is the bedrock of civilization.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The anti-marriage manosphere crowd is an insignificant segment of loser incels and not a real thing

Over half the adult population is unmarried. Not insignificant

monogamous relationships aren't going anywhere

They kinda are

[–]FerocNo Pill-2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Over half the adult population is unmarried. Not insignificant

Yes, because people don't marry in their teens anymore. Still most people will get married at some point in their life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Marital_status_of_residents_of_the_United_States_of_America_in_2004.png

They kinda are

In addition to that the amount of people who are cohabiting with their partner are raising:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/13/8-facts-about-love-and-marriage/

Marriage isn't needed anymore for people to live together.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Couples who cohabit rarely last a lifetime. I mean i guess you can call it a long term commitment, but it's really not.

The number of single moms has skyrocketed the past couple decades. And children are really the only reason to get married.

[–]FerocNo Pill-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why does it have to last a lifetime? Many marriages don't last a lifetime either.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then do away with marriage and divorce laws completely

[–]FerocNo Pill-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No idea why that is an answer to my question.

[–]tritter211Pragmatic5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Come on. Your comment flies in the face of the stats about marriage, dating and relationships in general in modern day and age...

[–]openoids2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

seriously?! You have to go further than "premarital sex" is now acceptable. Ghettos are created, in part, when loads of children are born out of wedlock to poor single mothers and sperm donor dads who can't support them. These boys who grow up w/out fathers create some of the most violent cultures around.

[–]CainPrice2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

When you live somewhere urban and coastal (or Chicago), or spend a lot of time reading internet bullshit, it's easy to forget that 90% of America is normal and not like where you live.

Most of America is the same mostly-wholesome conservative place where you grew up, just with less Christianity and a greater acceptance of casual and premarital sex. Because most of America is middle-America. Most places don't have ghettos full of poor people selling drugs and having kids out of wedlock.

That small-town girl from Ohio having casual sex in college, and with guys from Tinder in her 20s while she's working, before getting marred at age 28 instead of age 22 like her parents did isn't the end of civilization. It's just a girl having casual sex and marrying later. She's not creating poor ghettos or ending America. Maybe she's making Jesus cry or something. But she'll be just fine.

[–]openoids2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think I know where you're coming from. I'm telling you that this is more than just some premarital sex in college. ..of which Im guilty. I'm almost 60 and am no bible thumper. I used to be a sex educator/counselor for planned parenthood too. If you are open to discussion, I think I can show you some research that might plant the seeds for a shift in perspective. Right now...gotta go. Thanks for responding.

[–]dirty_nail 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Because most of America is middle-America. Most places don't have ghettos full of poor people selling drugs and having kids out of wedlock.

Appalachia would like a word with you. Opioid crisis?

[–]Tomatoccino0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hillbillies have been hillbillies forever. Opioids are the new moonshine, that’s all.

[–]GayLubeOilTrue Red Pill5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sooner or later marriage will fade out anyway.

[–]ThimbleK960 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is actually very well said.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Monogamous relationships aren't going anywhere.

This is technically true, but I think you're missing something which the OP should have referenced but didn't:

Literally only 1 or 2 generations ago, marriage was seen as a social duty. One simply had to get married. For family continuance and the like. And the expectation was essentially one of lifelong monogamy.

But these days, culture has changed to believe in romantic marriage and serial monogamy.

There's no longer an expectation of lifelong commitment. Rather, the expectation is that people will spend their youth finding someone they fall in love with, through a process by which people have a series of sexual relationships (not necessarily marriages) with others until a "perfect match" (or what is believed to be one) is found. The theory is that if the match is perfect, the individuals in question will voluntarily remain with each other on a lifelong basis. Should the relationship dissolve, it wasn't a perfect match, and both individuals are expected to continue the search.

Monogamy per se is not on the way out. But the character of monogamy, as understood by society, has changed.

[–]SupMyNeighbor970 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, most MEN do not fuck their way through college, like at all.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But if you think families and monogamy are the bedrock, then we're doing just fine.

I also dont understand how monogamy is tied with western civilization. It's a staple of most civilizations. It's not like christianity invented marriage.

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank god someone sane around here lol Society is more fluid and adaptable than some think , social mores are changing and the Christian taboos about sex and family are on the way out but Western Civilization is just fine lol It's apparently the collapse of human civilization everytime there's some big change around the corner 🙄

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, it seems like "not being fundie causes societal collapse!!!1!1" is an auth-right talking point by people who like authoritarianism. RedPillers who miss the Victorian Era and shill for Christianity because of Carol's bad behavior are like /r/LateStageCapitalism tankies who miss the Soviet Union and shill for Venezuela "resisting American imperialism" because of a corporation's bad behavior:

  • They act as if alternatives to [modern bad behavior] and [their favored authoritarian solution] don't exist--e.g., Mosuo/Na societal mores or the Ukrainian Free Territory.

  • They never grew up in the system they're shilling for and never had to experience firsthand how bad it is. The LSC wannabe commisars never met Cuban immigrants who had to live under Castro and Guevara. The RedPillers never met atheists who used to be Christian fundamentalists, much less people who grew up in Quiverfull/Dominionist households.

If these people grew up LDS, Muslim or in the American fundigelical subculture--or even the moderate evangelical true believer subculture like I did, instead of the more benign cultural Christianity that evangelical pastors complain about--they'd appreciate how much better secularism is for sexuality than guilt-men-for-fapping doctrine (e.g., Fireproof, Every Young Man's Battle). Robert Heinlein wasn't a Christian or tradcon, and he still wasn't BluePill.

[–]Mayhzon6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm with you. I have been saying that the indisputable truth feminists, MGTOW and society as a whole have to accept is, that women need men and men need women.

True happiness is achieved when both work together to support each other and mend the wounds they receive while going through life.

Women and men working against each other has always far-reaching devastating effects. I think the Black Community is a wonderful example for that. Before Feminism and social state were pushed onto them, they had a lot of class and harmony in their established families.

[–]ToraChan23Red Pill Man2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A very small number of people don't subscribe to what you're saying here. I think yall really worry over nothing.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm with you. I have been saying that the indisputable truth feminists, MGTOW and society as a whole have to accept is, that women need men and men need women. True happiness is achieved when both work together to support each other and mend the wounds they receive while going through life.

Is a religious tradcon marriage the best possible option for this compared to all other alternatives?

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Please dismantle my tradcon fantasy,

Will do!

Short version: go read /r/exmormon or /r/exmuslim. Ask them how good for society tradcon social restriction is.

and explain why heterosexual monogamy is no longer ideal or relevant.

Question: where do the Mosuo/Na people of southwestern China and their traditional societal structure with serial monogamy fit into this model? It seems much more adapted than Western tradcons to what TRP says about female nature:

  • Unlike in the "till death do us part" tradcon Christian tradition, men are not raised to expect that women will love them forever--and certainly not that women will love them for their "good personality." They instead grow up expecting that a relationship will last only as long as the woman feels attracted to them, and that this is subject to change.

  • The woman chooses the man, and it ends when she no longer wants to have sex with him. No dead bedrooms or incompatible marriages like in tradcon cultures where marriages are arranged years beforehand or the father picks the groom and forces his daughter to marry him.

  • The man goes back to his family's home in the morning instead of staying with the woman 24/7. The Western tradcon arrangement expects the man and woman to spend lots of time around each other and brushes off fights as normal and something to endure.

  • The relationship continues while the woman has the man visit her at night. In other words, the "real relationship, not sex" dichotomy is never created--it is understood that a woman who loves a man wants to have sex with him.

  • Children are cared for by the woman's brothers--the man cares for his sister's children. His sibling shares much of his DNA, and the father of those children is guaranteed to be of the same ethnic group--not an outsider with wildly disparate DNA and possible STDs.

  • Christian and Muslim traditional mores frown upon male looksmaxxing as "vanity" and not being devout enough--a perfect recipe for creating incels. Don't take my word for it, ask /r/exmuslim.

But suppose the Mosuo tradition doesn't exist. The Western tradcon model holds that:

  • Society is better off persecuting (and often killing) gay and trans members--in fact, it is held as imperative lest civilization collapse (alt-right subs spam "the slippery slope is real") --and thereby ridding itself of their talents and contributions. The questions this raises:

    • Was British society better off by castrating Alan Turing, despite his accomplishments as a computer scientist and despite the fact that his cracking of the Enigma code saved a vast number of British lives in WWII?
    • Would white people be better off without Lynn Conway's contributions to computer architecture?
  • Societies that tolerate male effeminacy, crossdressing and homosexuality are weaker for it and will lose wars and be wiped out by societies that don't tolerate those things. The questions this raises:

    • Why didn't tribes in the Americas who had what modern Anglos call "Two-Spirits" get wiped out or at least consistently defeated by tribes that didn't? In his memoirs George Catlin complains about "berdaches" among the Sac and Fox people (the ethnic group in his painting Dance to the Berdache). He bemoans it as a horrible tradition and hopes it dies out and is forgotten. Why were warlike Plains tribes like the Sac and Fox so militarily successful against their rivals?
    • Why were Pacific Island cultures with a similarly old tradition of a societal niche for biological males who wear women's clothing, use female pronouns, and are sexually attracted to masculine straight men--mahu in Hawaii, fa'afafine in Samoa, fakafefine in Tonga, etc.--so overwhelmingly succesful? Why didn't the existence of this niche create a societal weak point during thousands of years of those cultures' existence?
  • Allowing transsexuals is a harbinger of societal collapse. In other words, it is incompatible with keeping a powerful empire. The questions this raises:

    • Whence cometh the success of powerful, relatively advanced Fertile Crescent civilizations documented in Priests of the Goddess as having a religious niche for transsexuals?
    • Likewise, whence cometh the success of empires and kingdoms in ancient India who had a marginal niche for trans people who are now called hijras? Especially in light of the fact that hons are heralded as a harbinger of Clown World and, since the only available tools for MtF transition were castration and drinking pregnant mare urine for estrogen, anyone who transitioned would necessarily be a hon, and looking like Blaire White or Kalvin Garrah and assimilating to "a normal member of society" was medically impossible (this is a common complaint about Roman Gallae--both pagan writers like Martial, who complains that Baeticus defames the rites of Cybele by being a gynephilic AGP instead of sucking dick like other Gallae, and Christian writers like Augustine, who complains about their "squeaky voices" in The City of God Against The Pagans, make a point of "see? The clergy of Cybele are troon freaks!").

In short, the tradcon model holds that the more fratricide an ethnic group perpetrates against members who happen to be sexual minorities, the better the society is to live in. These are just off the top of my head, I'll add more to the list later below this sentence.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just broadly, you're doing something that I see a lot of people doing, and was referenced in this comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/d1s1by/monogamous_relationships_are_necessary_for/ezq108o/

It's a patchwork of historical anecdotes from extinct or minor civilizations that are or were far less successful and influential; and would/did get FUCKING DEMOLISHED if/when they come in contact with Western Civilization.

You also have some perceived injustices that have perpetrated on some minority groups. Nonsense. Nobody cares. I'ts irrelevant the way Turing was treated and nobody cares about some two-spirits in some defeated culture.

This doesn't do anything to change my view, it rather reinforces it. You're showing that other systems are possible, you're not showing how we can remain what we are now by removing our sexual cornerstones and replacing them with something else.... something else that over the years has proven to be far less efficient and superior.

You can look around around the world and you can gauge how successful and influential western culture is. There's no precedent to it.

Can I gauge how infuential Mosua/Na people are? They're nothing. Native Americans? They're gone for all practical purposes. Ancient Indians? Pacific Islanders? Crescent civilizations? Who cares. They're nobody and nothing. Nobody cares. They're not even in the same universe to be talking about seriously.

[–]Andropomorphine7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm an immigrant to Canada who has been here for 8 years now. South Africa is just as multicultural as Canada and I have seen the destructive effects of this ideology unfold through my years living in South Africa (inter-ethnic conflicts, xenophobia, racism against whites nowadays in SA). I hold some conservative views and accepted Canadian culture as my own even though I will never be fully accepted as a Canadian. My ethos is that Once in Rome Do As the Romans Do - accept the values, if any, of my host nation. As an outsider looking in my observation is that there is a significant portion of the native Canadian population who view sex before marriage as rite of passage (eg. hoe phases, shunning those who are virgins, incel culture as a result of "missing out", etc) as opposed to where I'm from. This is due in part to the fact that the middle class - who is the easiest to subvert ideologically and through education - is much smaller in SA than in Canada. Promiscuity, outward sexual display (through appearance, clothing and popular culture) is ubiquitous here in Canada. Even the music is encouraging young women to "fuck his friends" and young men are ridiculed for not having come close to a vagina. I am speaking specifically of the native Canadian people who live in the cities, not country folk.

Being a 3rd worlder the difference between my culture and the culture of the natives of Canada is day-and-night. It was a culture shock to me to see so many women half dressed (of course dress however you want), a culture of excess and frivolity. I have never seen so much decadence and a lack of awareness or cultural/future direction. No where else in this world have I seen such a strong divide between men and women as I have witnessed in the West. Most of the conservative and traditional values that I have been exposed to here in Canada are coming from 3rd world immigrants - who strongly believe in marriage, modesty, having children (and lots of them), no divorce, and religious devotion. I have seen immigrant women walking around town, in the subway, in the neighbourhood with more multiple children moreso than native women. While I do value liberal democracy and classic liberal values it's almost as though the liberal values of the West have come full circle and no longer held as absolutes for a lot of people. From my observation a good deal of the city-dwelling native Canadian population have the following cultural values:

  1. "Everything is subjective"
  2. "I can do whatever I want"
  3. "Love is Love"
  4. "There is no such thing as Truth"
  5. "We demand safe spaces"
  6. "God doesn't exist"
  7. "My body, my choice"
  8. "Sexual liberation"
  9. "Lit"
  10. Getting wasted on weekends, sports spectatorship (Bread & Circuses)
  11. Frat parties
  12. THOT culture/hookup culture/SlutWalk/"I can dress anyway I want"
  13. Sexually provocative clothing
  14. #metoo
  15. "You're an incel!"
  16. "You're a beta cuck"
  17. "The future is female"
  18. "I don't need a man"
  19. The rise of polyamory - polygyny
  20. 1-5 partners before settling down
  21. The slow normalization of paedophilia or "minor attracted persons" (MAPS)
  22. Normalization of narcissism (through social media use, selfie culture and the cult of the personality - lovers of themselves)
  23. Celebrating/having a good ol' time after a breakup/divorce
  24. Consume a ton of alcohol and marijuana
  25. "Focus on your career first then have children"

This doesn't sound like a culture that is ready or even willing to save Western civilization. " Decadance is nothing to be fought. It is absolutely necessary and belongs to every age and every people" - Nietzsche. Feel like I am going to get a lot of backlash for this post so I'm going to delete this post, eventually.

[–]DragoonXFury22 Yr Black Virgin Skater Stoner Anime Nerd NPC5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Please don't delete this as it was a thoroughly interesting and enjoyable read.

[–]Justice4Jamal2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are the type of immigrant whose attitudes I hope rise to prominence in the coming years

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Is there any evidence any god exists--much less, the one specific deity of your religion?

[–]Andropomorphine0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't have a religion. and I really don't have time to get into this debate of whether God exists or not. Its a waste of time and goes in circles. If you feel god doesn't exist, fine. You do you.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat11 points12 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

What are you calling "as long as we can trace back"? What counts as "Western civilization"?

The Vikings were notoriously not monogamous--they lived so communally that they couldn't be arsed about paternity, and a child coming into your household was seen as an unalloyed good.

Any culture that had slavery had those slaves getting raped--this was not a "minor transgression" like a 50s salesman having a ONS on a business trip, it was fucking endemic.

Prostitution was so common during the Victorian era in Britain that they had to pass laws that involved seizing suspected prostitutes off the street for forced medical examinations because of the syphilis epidemic--it was called the Contagious Diseases Act.

Millenials are actually significantly LESS tolerant of adultery than their parents' generation, according to recent studies. This may be in part BECAUSE we're more tolerant of premarital sex and of openly non-monogamous relationships. When the commitment itself is truly a choice, there's more pressure to take that choice seriously; this happens with nonsexual scenarios too.

It may interest you to know that Freud himself was a proponent of several, ahem, treatments for certain, ahem, diseases that would today be recognized as....sexual behavior outside of monogamous marriage.

[–]OatsGYOWMGTOW[🍰] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The Vikings were notoriously not monogamous--they lived so communally that they couldn't be arsed about paternity, and a child coming into your household was seen as an unalloyed good.

This is a myth, among many others, spread by the English historians who hated the vikings.

Viking women were political pawns between clans, treated as children more than anything. Women were expected to be chaste until marriage for this reason.

There was no penalty if they were "seduced", leaving the husband the responsibility of killing the one who seduced his wife. However, the woman is essentially cut from the family, losing any right to inheritance for her family, and any future children she had would be considered bastards unfit for inheritance(if they aren't killed after birth).

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Actually, I was going off the writings of Muslim scholars who visited and reported a LOT of non-monogamy within marriage, including bisexuality and group sex. Pre-marital sexuality actually was fairly restricted for the political reasons you mentioned, but sexuality within marriage had a lot of leeway so long as the husband was aware. There was also a surprisingly strong taboo against rape of Viking women.

[–]OatsGYOWMGTOW[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What you are speaking of is also considered unreliable for different reasons. Mainly, how exaggerated and clearly meant for entertainment and bragging the poems they wrote were.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The Vikings

unsuccessful experiment, that doesn't exist anymore. Along with Victorian era and slavery.

When the commitment itself is truly a choice, there's more pressure to take that choice seriously; this happens with nonsexual scenarios too.

That may be the case, but again, I feel like this also goes along with the fact that millennial choose to commit less in general, that is they reject conservative monogamous lifestyle in favor of more permissive one.

It may interest you to know that Freud

I don't put up Freud as a champion of my moral standards. I put him up as an insightful man that can articulate the general observation about the world.

[–]Mayhzon9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Slavery doesn't exist anymore? Er...

You might wanna google that.

Japan, USA and Europe are pretty much the only continental plates that have it completely banned and still it creeps in here via people smuggling rings, paedophilia and nasty crap no human needs.

Slavery wasn't ended and it isn't over. It happens frequently in many places, as sad as it is.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

As I said, that's an awfully silly yardstick you're using for "Western civilization". Slavery was part of Western civilization for longer than it's not been--the Romans had slaves, and American slavery lasted for centuries. Epictetus, one of the finest Stoic philosophers, was born a slave. The Bible talks about slaves and the protocol around them. If anything, a taboo against slavery is the experiment. Viking civilization lasted for roughly three centuries--longer than America has been a country. The Victorians grew the British Empire to its largest and most powerful--and the era "ended" the way all eras named for a monarch do--the monarch died, silly!

Millenials aren't choosing to commit less--they're choosing to marry less. That doesn't mean a damn thing in terms of committed monogamous relationships. Oddly, purely anecdotally, the more liberal and permissive the culture, the more likely for stable marriages/partnerships to eventually form--although I suspect that's a causation thing, and the real root is economic.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As I said, that's an awfully silly yardstick you're using for "Western civilization". Slavery was part of Western civilization for longer than it's not been--the Romans had slaves, and American slavery lasted for centuries. Epictetus, one of the finest Stoic philosophers, was born a slave. The Bible talks about slaves and the protocol around them. If anything, a taboo against slavery is the experiment. Viking civilization lasted for roughly three centuries--longer than America has been a country. The Victorians grew the British Empire to its largest and most powerful--and the era "ended" the way all eras named for a monarch do--the monarch died, silly!

^

Exactly. It's textbook cherrypicking when someone claims "Western bedrock tradition" = recent, short-lived things they like (Christianity, abolitionism) and not older, longer-lived things they don't like.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

People are still monogamous for the majority of the population they are monogamous with more people because they are not getting married off to the gross older farmer next door for a few extra sheep and some more land. Fathers are not selling their daughters for material goods now. Open relationships and non monogamous relationships are more a part of mainstream culture but they are not the majority.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

they are monogamous with more people because they are not getting married off to the gross older farmer next door for a few extra sheep and some more land.

I feel like the "good old days" guys would be utterly horrified to learn what marriage a couple generations ago was like. Even a long and happy marriage like my grandparents had would be utterly unacceptable to most of these guys.

[–]LaukkuPaukku1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is explored in Sex and Culture by J. D. Unwin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_Culture

Note that the book is quite old and may be outdated in ways.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Interesting, I'll see if I can pdf it sometime, although seems like I'd just be reinforcing my bias.

The book concludes with the assertion that, in order to maintain a "Rational", energetic, society, sexual drive should be controlled and shifted to more productive work, and that women should enjoy the same legal rights as men.

[–]blimpette1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If largely agree with a lot of your points.

I’d recommend posting to r/unpopularopinion; I believe this is a more popular idea than people are willing to admit.

[–]ImJustaBagofHammersPurple Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Monogamy is necessary for the survival of all civilizations, not just the western civilization. Even in the societies where polygamy is legal and accepted, it is always practiced mostly by the elite, with the large majority of the marriages still monogamous.

[–]dayoftheoctopus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Let's modify that - it's no longer UNIVERSALLY ideal or relevant. Is it still vital to maintain a sustainable core? Probably - particularly if you look at the better outcomes kids raised in two parent households enjoy. But that being said who knows what the split is going to look like - could be 50% are monogamous / hetero ... 20% non-monogamous / hetero ... 15% monogamous / lgbt ... who knows?! The other thing to consider - we live really long lives ... we could slide in and out (no pun intended) of a variety of mating configurations over the course of our time on this earth. You could spend 30 years with another person, have kids, raise them, get them off into the world. Before and after that though, who is to say?

[–]MBCpy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean, obviously mono hetero couples are part of western civilisation, but they aren’t ideal or necessarily desirable.

Homosexuality was around before mono couples were. It was normally how tribes could bond, and homosexuals without children could hunt more, gather more, or help raise the children of the rest of the tribe. Homosexuality is important for our history and our culture.

Nowadays I don’t think any sexuality is the ideal sexuality. Obviously in prehistoric times , it was important as people lived very shorter lives, and the human race needed a way to survive, and through that could of invented traditional mono hetero couple. But nowadays the Earth is populated enough with humans, and most people are into mono heterosexuality anyways. Most hetero people want one, if not now when they are older, which is why it will always be relevant no matter what.

[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thus you get yoga practicing vegan office workers that fuck like whores (or otherwise fail to do so) and have about a million mental health issues. But I digress.

A shit worker is probably a shit spouse and will most likely be a shit parent. It's the same lack of discipline that will destroy all three. Just like a fat man with 18 choices of candy is not free to be thin, people who suck at relationships probably don't know how to improve and lack the required discipline.

So they cheat or branch swing because they have zero fucking tools to improve their relationship.

We don't need monogamy to survive as a society. We need monogamy to thrive as a society.

[–]PostModernCommieAnarcha-Femimnist (They, Them)3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

You never said why monogamous relationships will save western civilization.

You just make several baseless claims, such as:

For high-level civilization to exist, it must necessarily restrict sexual instincts

There’s no reason to change your view, because your views clearly aren’t based on facts

[–]geyges🐇[S] 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Are you aware of any prominent, successful civilizations that did not restrict human sexual instinct heavily?

I already had this discussion here with someone else, but even dealing with sex diseases and unwanted children would be a huge issue in any society that would not be restricted. So that's the basis for that.

[–]PostModernCommieAnarcha-Femimnist (They, Them)-2 points-1 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Are you aware of any prominent, successful civilizations that did not restrict human sexual instinct heavily?

Are you aware of any prominent, successful civilizations that have been to moon more than once?

We must restrict space travel if we want to save western civilization.

I already had this discussion here with someone else, but even dealing with sex diseases and unwanted children would be a huge issue in any society that would not be restricted. So that's the basis for that.

That's what planned parenthood is for. Free birth control and STI testing ftw

[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

America went to the moon 6 times, so yes I do know of one.

[–]PostModernCommieAnarcha-Femimnist (They, Them)0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you aware of any prominent, successful civilizations that did not restrict human sexual instinct heavily?

Similarly, America does not restrict human sexual instinct heavily.

[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

For all of American history except for like the past 35 years, human sexual instinct has been heavily shamed socially. In the modern day we still have age-based consent restrictions, it's illegal to commit adultery if you are in the US military, and having sex in public will get you fined and possibly arrested for public indecency. Sodomy laws (making it illegal to have gay sex) weren't even declared unconstitutional until 2003.

[–]PostModernCommieAnarcha-Femimnist (They, Them)0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

and that has nothing to do with 'muh western civilization!

Congratulations.

[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not even the guy who said that, so... okay?

[–]PostModernCommieAnarcha-Femimnist (They, Them)0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why even bother commenting?

[–]poppy_bluBeware the freight train2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It’s pretty ironic that human survived our cave days because we we didn’t practice lifelong monogamy.

But what does accurate accounts of history mean to a right wing homophobic tradcon? I’m wasting my time, I know.

What’s relevant:

  • that everyone does what’s best for them and ignore people who want to tell them how to live but can’t even get their own shit together

  • that people who commit to having children commit to actively raising them, whatever their situation may be. That includes the fake ass Christians who stay together cuz Jesus said so who are still shitty parents. A marriage license and a shared address doesn’t make you a good parent.

No one here believes your issue is with monogamy. If you could be out there fucking like Chad, you know damn well you would be. Your issue is that you’re bitter than women are fucking other men who aren’t you.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But what does accurate accounts of history mean to a right wing homophobic tradcon? I’m wasting my time, I know.

No, but you're being incredibly presumptuous with your associations of tradcons, homophobes, and right wingers. It's intellectually lazy.

that everyone does what’s best for them

but also consider what's best for society

A marriage license and a shared address doesn’t make you a good parent.

And lack of such things doesn't either.

If you could be out there fucking like Chad, you know damn well you would be. Your issue is that you’re bitter than women are fucking other men who aren’t you.

Of course. Who has time to type out all this drab, when you're balls deep into some slut? Doesn't paint me as a hypocrite, but rather as a voice for discontent. Something that people in general ought to be sensitive to, because we all experience it from time to time.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

^

For TRP claims to be correct, it must be the case that humans evolved in a non-monogamous environment. If archaic humans evolved in an environment with strict monogamy, women seeking higher-status mates and men seeking novelty and multiple sexual partners wouldn't be a thing.

[–]CaptDeadlift1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean back then there were more women since men fought wars all the time so that kept a huge abundance of women.

Nowadays every 5/10 girl has like 10-20 betas drooling over her lmao.

Human connection with 1 single person>>>>sex with some thot

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill3 points4 points  (103 children) | Copy Link

Why is everyone so obsessed with preserving western civilization, it’s literally an unsustainable system that depends on the oppression of anyone that doesn’t conform to capitalism. Let it burn.

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's brought the highest standards of living in history, feel free to show me a better civilization past or present lol

Europe figured it out , Japan figured it out, now China's discovering how capitalism can elevate a society.

Until something better comes along, capitalism is by far the best system to live in, who cares if some backwards shithole gets "oppressed " lol what does that even mean in this context

[–]Mayhzon6 points7 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

You only talk about modern contemporary crony "crapitalism" right? Because if you mean Western Society at large including before the 20th century, I've got an essay for you my man...

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I’m talking about the idiots who sacked Rome and then squatted shitting in the ashes for thousands of years giving each other diseases and fighting meaningless Holy Wars and stamped out all other religious or academic advancements in the name of an poorly translated religious text they found in the desert.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

The idea that medieval times were really 'the dark ages' has been largely debunked. There was plenty of scholarship during these times, check out scholasticism

It was this early western tradition that gave birth to the renaissance, the Reformation, and eventually the Enlightenment; aka the bedrock of developed liberal, democratic, technologically advanced civilization. So I'm not really sure where you're getting your judgmental, ahistorical viewpoint from. It's certainly not from the written record.

[–]JamMan0076 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Educate these people and disabuse them of these silly ahistorical claims.

[–]NiceGuyNumber47 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's pretty simple. Before the printing press, books were copied by hand. Mostly by catholic monks. We have celibate Jesus freaks to thank for preserving much of our written culture.

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

OmG the scholasticism tradition was largely masturbatory bullshit. Aquinas and Ockam are acceptable additions to the canon but honestly MOST scholasticism was the pomo cultural studies of its day: just a vast amount of Inside Baseball jabbering meaning nothing to anyone else. The best thing about this entire period was gothic architecture and forms of mythopoetic thinking.

Finding classics from antiquity translated and preserved largely by scholars from the “Middle East” did more to kickstart the Renaissance/Enlightenment than a bunch of academic losers worshiping the Popes shit and arguing about how many angels could fit on the head of a pin. (And the best voices from late scholasticism got much of their material from Middle Eastern scholars like Averroes/Ibn Rashid).

That the tables have very much turned on the vitality of the two Cultures (don’t worry i am still a huge Islamophobe) does not change that your account erases the cross cultural nature of knowledge building.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Fair enough but I was trying to be brief, mostly just providing a counter example to the misconception that the medieval west was the hegemony of mouthbreathers everyone seems to think it was. I was thinking primarily of Aquinas and Ockham, as well as Abelard's vaunting of Aristotle as empiricist, making way for more advanced, objective natural philosophy.

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And i might have been thinking your argument had more to do with Ye Olde Blood and Soyl than just progress of thought. Agreed Western Civilization didn’t spring forth solely from Michelangelo’s very masc4masc hand touch with the Almighty

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah a lot of people seem to think the big cultural changes like the Enlightenment came from a few scholars and philosophers arguing in universities. Sure they influenced lawmaking and the like , but the those ideas were the cumulation of ideas that go wayyy back in time , plus a lot of progress from intercultural contact. ( those arabs had a LOT of influence on cultures a that time too, shame about the state of those countries now tho )

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

^ Angelology is a case in point. It was an actual study area, and just as useless as a postmodernist study area today.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah and next you’re gonna tell me the Opium Wars was a story about kind Westerners just “helping” India by making those mean old Chinese buy all those drugs they were “encouraging” them to grow.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not really sure what the opium wars have to do with my comment, but sure. My point was more that modern progressive individualistic liberal society is unquestionably western in origin. In other words, your freedom to publicly present your mental illness as a fully legitimate non-binary sexual identity and receive acceptance has its roots in those medieval western Europeans 'shitting' in Rome's ashes, as you put it.

It's depressing that no one these days knows any of this stuff, and is only vaguely familiar with a patchwork of historical anecdotes sufficient to brainwash them into blind anti-western ideologues. White man bad, brown man good, is basically the core argument your comment tried to make. So fucking boring and predictable.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

patchwork of historical anecdotes

This one I notice a lot here. Especially from some well-educated women.

Did you not know about this esoteric event X, that disproves entire historical trend?

... There's opium wars, therefore we'll need to throw out western civilization altogether.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My point was more that modern progressive individualistic liberal society is unquestionably western in origin.--

In direct response to problems the West was creating for itself. That's like saying "England created America by making life shitty for the colonists and giving them no representation -- PROOF THAT ENGLAND IS AMAZING." Generally, it's the response to adversity that says more flattering things about a person than the adversity they put on others.

I observe what people do, and I observe their morality behind it. If you use this vector, the West has a shitty track record.

I haven't said anything about the color of people's skin at all; a person's melanin level has far less influence on how a person behaves than the culture they are raised in. Some cultures are just more altruistic and socially beneficial than others.

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Isn't Roman Civilization one of those "oppressive " societies you loathe though? It was a military empire , not a nation of philosopher-kings lol

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Who said I loathed anything? I’m being entirely pragmatic here. Let’s skip the morality issue entirely, I’m more lamenting the tragedy of all that art and science destroyed by shit-flinging barbarians who wouldn’t figure that shit out again for a few thousand years

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh yeah sure I agree about you there.m, so much was lost and it took so long to find it all back . Though in a way it was a the foundation of modern western civilization. Shame it took so long tho

[–]ZodiacBrave98Open Hypergamy Triggers Me1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Western Civilization is Best civilization.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid4 points5 points  (77 children) | Copy Link

The oppression of communism is better?

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill9 points10 points  (76 children) | Copy Link

I have this amazing ability to be opposed to multiple oppressive structures at once. It’s rare, these days, people seem determined to defend the fleas they lay down with as being better than the fleas in the next guy’s bed.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid-1 points0 points  (75 children) | Copy Link

Except capitalism is in no way oppressive

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (66 children) | Copy Link

tell that to the 40 hour work week

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure breaking your back plowing fields 12 hours a day for some stale bread and milk was a more fun way to live lol

You do know that we have more luxuries and leisure time than ever before right?

Oh so much oppression , unless you work in some shit iPhone factory you have no "oppression " to complain about , unless you're being oppressed by not being able to browse Netflix 10 hours a day lol

I mean , what's the alternative, there's never been a better one , maybe robots will save us from this mind breaking torture that modern "work" is

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman-1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

what's the alternative, there's never been a better one

Hunter/gatherers had more leisure time, but far less luxuries. What you're saying is right, we haven't "had it better", that's true. I think.

maybe robots will save us from this mind breaking torture that modern "work" is

my stance is that this is already starting to happen, and will continue to happen.

But its pretty premature, i think, in the grand scheme of things. Nevertheless it'd be wise of me to stop doing Frontend engineering and start doing machine learning.

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If by "leisure" you mean surviving then sure I guess lol semantics

Maybe I have a different view from never having worked more than 30 hours a week in my life lol ,

if you can call that work

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think the work involved in gathering and hunting takes about 10-15 hours per week or something so I read so all the excess time could be used for liesure, haah

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You never lived in the country or hunted/ farmed huh?

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid-1 points0 points  (57 children) | Copy Link

Optional. No one is forcing you.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (56 children) | Copy Link

This is a weak argument. I certainly don't feel like I could quit my job and be fine. Where would i get money? i need money because food, water, shelter, and healthcare all require money. If one requires money to access food, water, shelter, and healthcare, then doing things to get sufficient amounts of money is "not optional".

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Starving and having a lower standard of living is optional. If you were dropped on a desert island by yourself you would still have to work to survive.

Surviving isn't oppression. Not working at thur expense of others is the oppression of them.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Having to do work to survive isn't the same thing as capitalism, which prioritizes profit over human lives.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you not free to do what you want? Is anyone forcing you into work camps?

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's just the nature of being alive isn't it? We're consumers, quite literally, we've always needed to produce to be able to sustain ourselves. Capitalism is just a method of proportional reward. If you think the fall of capitalist society and the rise of something else would be any less oppressive you're sorely mistaken. The fact of the matter is that our lives are far easier and less oppressive than anyone's was even 100 years ago. I think a 40 hour work week justifies a historically luxurious lifestyle just fine.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

There's a few issues. Proportional reward is not true; there are plenty of people working extravagantly hard for pennies, and plenty of people not working at all and getting all the profit. I'd argue our current economic system doesn't reward proportionally. I'd hope to see more equitable distribution of the wealth amongst the workers, but rather we see it all pooling up at the top, and the middle / working class is disappearing.

If you think the fall of capitalist society and the rise of something else would be any less oppressive you're sorely mistaken.

It honestly depends and knowing humans we'd fuck up the execution and still end up being oppressed, so yep, but doesn't mean capitalism is the be-all-end-all of economic policy that could work out for humans.

I think a 40 hour work week justifies a historically luxurious lifestyle just fine.

Humans suffer from working more than 39 hours a week, plain and simple. From the evolutionary perspective we did not evolve to work this much. Our hunter gatherers worked far less than we do, i hear maybe only 10 hours a week, to sustain their lives. It was the revolution of agriculture that necessitated us working more. We're in the midst of the beginning of a new revolution of artificial intelligence. We cannot predict the enhancements AIs can make in the next 100 years, but if the last 100 years is any example, we can predict technology will continue to grow exponentially and continue to displace human jobs. All this time no one has ever stopped to think, is there even enough work for everyone to have a job now? Capitalism sort of hinges on that idea, of work, of it being there, of it being valuable for humans to do it. In a future where most work, even creative and problem solving kinds, can be done by machines, where will humans go if we haven't stopped to think about an economy consisting of a surplus and abundance of humans, but not enough work for them to do for 40 hours per week?

[–]Marketing_BaboonRed Pill Man2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'd argue our current economic system doesn't reward proportionally.

It absolutely does reward proportionally. It's just not proportional to the amount of work you do but rather the value you provide, nor is that value linear. The average construction worker works far harder than I do on any given day, but they're less educated and easily replaceable. Their position does not provide immediate tangible value in the same way someone high up the food chain in sales or marketing would.

It honestly depends and knowing humans we'd fuck up the execution and still end up being oppressed, so yep, but doesn't mean capitalism is the be-all-end-all of economic policy that could work out for humans.

It's not poor execution that would keep us oppressed, it's the nature of life. And no, capitalism is not the end-all, but it's the best we've ever come up with thus far.

Humans suffer from working more than 39 hours a week, plain and simple. From the evolutionary perspective we did not evolve to work this much.

This is false, we evolved to work much more if anything, if you use the physical definition of work (mass x movement). We used to literally chase animals until they died. Relative to the typical man's lifestyle now any given hunt for our ancestors was a lot of work. Our lives are now mostly sedentary and full of overindulgence. That's what's causing the majority of suffering in my opinion. Lack of physical activity (work) and an overabundance of sugary and fat filled foods that cause severe systemic inflammation leading to mental health issues and obesity.

Capitalism sort of hinges on that idea, of work, of it being there, of it being valuable for humans to do it. In a future where most work, even creative and problem solving kinds, can be done by machines, where will humans go if we haven't stopped to think about an economy consisting of a surplus and abundance of humans, but not enough work for them to do for 40 hours per week?

Work having value is not a capitalist idea, it's an intrinsic value because life seeks to sustain itself. I agree that we're heading towards an era that will place us in an unexplored territory with regard to how we value labour, but it's not going to immediately overwrite millions of years of instinct. That's part of the reason I think the idea of UBI misses the mark. It's not so much that people need money (although technically speaking they do), but ultimately that they need things to do. Without things to do we will quickly lose our minds. Our mental health and bodies deteriorate without some overarching purpose. Most people derive this purpose from work. Even hobbies are work. Whether we need to work 40 hours a week is another point entirely, but we do need to work.

[–]ZodiacBrave98Open Hypergamy Triggers Me1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your issue is with Thermodynamics and the need for calories. Your Boss isn't oppressing you; he is just last in line delivering the message of biology's demand for constant resources.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

the oppression is having to work at all when all the things can be made by machines with no work from humans at all :)

[–]ZodiacBrave98Open Hypergamy Triggers Me0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

no work from humans

On that day the machines cut out the humans, not implement Basic Income.

https://www.amazon.com/Superintelligence-Dangers-Strategies-Nick-Bostrom/dp/0198739834/

[–]KV-n2 points3 points  (37 children) | Copy Link

Pls tell me you arent older than 15

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (36 children) | Copy Link

yes, i am older than 15... by a lot. I've been working 40 hour work weeks (or 50 hours) for enough years to know that tying your entire existence to this idea of working for another entity for a salary is probably not something most people want to willingly do, but it's the best option we have got to survive.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid1 point2 points  (35 children) | Copy Link

So quit? I usually 3-4 days a week and have tons of time while still averaging 42 hours total. If i took on a roomie or scaled down i could go work part time.

Could i maintain my high standard of living? Probably not. But i still have the choice

[–]eboy4hire0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I find every society that doesn't give me rich people's money to be oppressive. /s

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Capitalism is why politicians care more about donor funding than the welfare of their own constituents. It’s literally legal to buy elections. I don’t know how that isn’t corruption to you.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Capitalism isn't the same thing as corruption. I agree government is bad, but that's not capitalism. In pure ancap there is no government.

Im sorry the government isn't taking more from me to give to you. But that's not oppression. Your not a slave

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Where did I say I wanted your money? I don't give a shit about your money. We're not talking about conceptual capitalism, we're talking about how actual capitalism has manifested in the West. Even you seem to agree that the machine is corrupt.

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

where diff i say i wanted your money

When you started talking about welfare.

It's not the government's job to take care of people. Only to protect and maintain order.

America has more upward mobility then most countries

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Wut? Where did I mention welfare?

[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It was implied

[–]eboy4hire1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The thing about capitalism, is that there's no oppression, but there's also no help either. You're on your own. You're free to start your own communist commune within capitalism. What do you mean by "oppression of anyone that doesn't conform to capitalism"?

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Hey man, if you like it here, knock yourself out. I’m just crazy and don’t think punishing poor people for being poor is a very effective business model. Considering most money in the world is owned by a handful of corrupt people who literally don’t care if thousands of people die as long as they make a profit, and it’s ruining our air, water and access to health care and education, I can’t really see many people that benefit from it. It seems structured inherently to be abused by those with the most money’s

[–]TrueReligionGenesLooxist3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

muh illuminati

[–]eboy4hire2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just take care of yourself and tell those poor people to do the same. Nobody's keeping them poor, and there's no shortage of wealth even if a few people have a lot of it. Go outside and take a deep breath. Do you feel like you're dying or that the air seems any different from when you were a kid? My filtered drinking water tastes just fine; idk about you.

I can’t really see many people that benefit from it. It seems structured inherently to be abused by those with the most money’s

Benefit from what? What's being abused? Yeah, it does seem like drugs are overpriced, but there's insurance. Maybe you can't go from dirt poor to Bill Gates in one lifetime, but if you truly have communist values, maybe you'll look out for your own family and pass your wealth down to them, until eventually your family is one of those one percenters that everybody hates.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Go outside and take a deep breath. Do you feel like you're dying or that the air seems any different from when you were a kid?

Actually, literally yes. Here in the PNW, we now have what we affectionately call "Smoke Season", where two months out of the year the sky is brown from wildfires burning due to accelerated climate change. The water isn't much better, considering Flint isn't the only town to its water sources poisoned for months to years at a time by short-sighted industry projects (of which safety regulations are still being rolled back further, also due to greed and special interest efforts.)

If a person doesn't have insurance, but they have sustained an injury that makes them unable to work -- what are their options? Insurance being linked to whether a person is able to get a job is part of why our health care system is cascading into a financial crisis, considering people are only using hospital services when health problems get so bad they have to use the emergency room (which often never gets paid because, shock of shocks, the person still doesn't magically find money after suffering a debilitating health crisis).

if you truly have communist values, maybe you'll look out for your own family and pass your wealth down to them, until eventually your family is one of those one percenters that everybody hates.

Ah yes, the great Western Dream -- laying in the gutter and lookin' at the stars.

[–]dval92White Anglo-Saxon Hebrew0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nazbol gang rise up!

[–]idkwhattoputhere0001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fuck civilisation, idc what happens with the world and my culture after I die. I’m vegan etc and love animals, but about humanity, I’m not a misanthrope but I really don’t care about the future of humanity and western civilisation. I’m here to have a good time and enjoy my life, I’m not responsible for my culture or civilisation.

Other than that, I agree with monogamy because I’m as blue pilled as can get.

[–]ToraChan23Red Pill Man1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If you like monogamy, do it. Why do you people need validation for your desired lifestyle before you do it?

If you don't, don't. For a man, it's stupid if you don't want children IMO.

[–]alpha_in_progress3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But children are a pain in the ass to raise tho. Some people don't want to have to deal with a screaming womb nugget.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

LOL'ed at "womb nugget." Have an upvote!

[–]alpha_in_progress0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thx :)

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"I like X and not Y, therefore everyone should be forced by the government to do X and not Y! Whaddaya mean I should just do X myself and be happy?"

--the logic of OP and every other statist

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I've heard tradcon women complain that they have to compete with women who are not only willing to provide a warm pussy and home-cooked meal, but can bring in a second income as well. The hussies!

[–]AzihayyaWhite Knight, the Voice of Femnai1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Carrol Quigley, author of The Evolution of Civilizations posits that a civilization is defined by its Instrument for Expansion, concerning that civilization was enabled by communities with a surplus of time and wealth. By instrument of expansion, Quigley suggest that three things be true: 1) the society must be organized in such a way that it has an incentive to invent new ways of doing things; 2) it must be organized in such a way that somewhere in the society there is accumulation of surplus--that is, some persons in the society control more wealth than they wish to consume immediately; and 3) it must be organized in such a way that the surplus which is being accumulated is being used to pay for or to utilize the new inventions.

Far from it that a Universal Empire is a symbol of a strong civilization, one where institutions are in total control and exerting an authoritarian doctrine, the Universal Empire, Quigley posits, is the 5th stage in the life of a Civilization, and a tell-tale sign of its decline. Civilizations begin through the process of 1) a Mixture of cultures, 2) the Gestation of those cultures and 3) the Expansion of the civilization. During these processes in which a civilization can be said to be expanding, the members of the civilization are most chaotic; rules are more flexible, there may not even be concrete language, and the institutions being formed exist for the benefit of the people, until, inevitably, the institutions become more concerned towards their own goals and continuation. In effect, if people were less vested in their own self interests (forming institutions that benefit those in power) then civilizations would last much longer and would not die out (but may be mixed with new populations).

While it may be true that human institutions, such as marriage, have been conducive to the survival of the species in the past, we are far from being able to say that "enforced monogamy is the bedrock of Western civilization"--according to Carrol Quigley, capitalism and the various industrial revolutions have been the bedrock of Western civilization as our instruments of expansion, and his research I trust because he has closely examined the history of civilizations. It would be more accurate to say that a Universal Empire may benefit from enforced monogamy, and yet a Universal Empire is an indication of the decline of a civilization.

Human sexuality exists for a reason; if it were true that other forms of sexuality other than monogamy were traits that inherently lead to the collapse of human nature then those traits would have been weeded out a long time ago--but instead, rather, they exist for a reason. They continue to exist, and there is no saying that our society and our people wouldn't be altogether stronger for exploring love in the way that they see fit--in the twenty-first century we certainly don't need to encourage population growth as a means for protecting our people, and if we did then that would likely be a trait that resonated with us as a people. Instead, by allowing people who want to be parents to be parents, and allowing people who don't to explore love however they choose, we will be forming families from meaningful and authentic relationships, rather than relationships that are based on this lie of "needing to control people's sexuality to strengthen civilization", and our children will be stronger and happier for it knowing that they were born from parents whose love was true and that they weren't born simply because their society has imposed Draconian laws of punishing adultery. Additionally, peoples would be happier and more productive, and far more positive about their social structure which enables us to closer approach ideals of egalitarian rather than totalitarianism.

If we're talking survival of the fittest, then we can look to the Bible, whose chief character, Jesus Christ, is the most widely renowned character in the world--and he is known for being a martyr who accepted his unjust death at the hands of the Romans with grace. He is also known for forgiving adulterers and aiding prostitutes during an age where women were largely oppressed and looked down on--an age where women were punished for adultery, and in an age where men were known to possess any combination of wives, mistresses and slaves--and this is what you're touting as the "gold standard of civilized life" under the umbrella of "monogamy". While this may not be indicative of biological fitness, I believe that everything, whether it be a behavior, an idea, or even the shape of the cosmos, to exist within a paradigm of survival, so that only that which is fit to survive will ultimately survive, and it is from this perspective that we can look at figures such as the Buddha or Jesus Christ and say that it was not a warlord, but a pacifist who have become the most renowned figures of history.

Thus you get yoga practicing vegan office workers that fuck like whores (or otherwise fail to do so) and have about a million mental health issues. But I digress.

I think the hate that you're espousing here is largely the motivation for your condemnation of relationships that exist outside of a heteronormative paradigm. This person that you came up with is entirely fictional and says little about your own personal experience. By "whores" you're primarily referring to individuals apart of a sex trafficking industry that is primarily comprised of women who are forced by threat of violence by a multi-billion dollar industry run by men to meet quotas.

Freud was also known for his Seduction Theory, where he initially considered repressed memories of sexual trauma during youth to be the source of hysteria and neurosis in his female patients, but years later abandoned the theory at the criticism of his peers (a male dominated field) and instead reported these memories of sexual abuse were only imaginary fantasies. It wasn't until more recently that conditions such as multiple personality disorder have gained any semblance of scientific validation, as experienced by people who have endured such trauma as Michelle Stevens, the author of Scared Selfless.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

While it may be true that human institutions, such as marriage, have been conducive to the survival of the species in the past, we are far from being able to say that "enforced monogamy is the bedrock of Western civilization"--

Stick to one thing, don't jump from "survival of the species" to "bedrock of Western Civilization". These are 2 wildly different things.

according to Carrol Quigley

Let's read him carefully now.

The period of mixture of Western civilization was merely a continuation of the period of invasion of Classical civilization and lasted from about A.D. 370 to at least 750. It was followed by a period of gestation of about two hundred years. The two periods together had to achieve three tremendous tasks: first,to bring into existence the new Christian society by creating relationships between groups and individuals and by establishing patterns of ideas and activity that would permit a new society to survive; second, to repel invasions of non-Christian cultures or to enforce conformity to the new Christian patterns by those who could not be expelled; and, third, the accumulation and investment functions of the instrument of expansion must begin to operate.

What does Christian society... and Christian culture and enforcement of conformity to those patterns tell you about about the value of marriage in the Western Civilization? To me he says that its BAKED IN THERE, as an absolute fundamental thing.

In terms of your musings or whether we can survive without "enforced" hetero monogamy... that's pure speculation. I don't see anyone really theorizing too deeply on that.

I think the hate that you're espousing here is largely the motivation for your condemnation of relationships that exist outside of a heteronormative paradigm.

Yep, that's how it works. When you see something fucked up, it motivates you to point it out, and classify it. That's how it is with all things, whether you hate them or love them.

[–]AzihayyaWhite Knight, the Voice of Femnai0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Also baked into the concept of the Christian faith and the Western ideology is the idea that the world is basically good and that the greatest good lies in the future. If we are to accept that Christianity is essentially the bedrock of Western Civilization, then we also must accept that Jesus' authority is held the highest. Jesus never declared that every person should be apart of a monogamous relationship, but said that marriage is only "for those whom it is given" and that to divorce one's partner in the covenant of marriage is to commit adultery. Let us look to the parable Jesus and the woman caught in adultery, John 8:1-11. When the Pharisees brought Jesus a woman accused of adultery, they pushed him to demand that she be punished, and his response was, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!”--according to Jesus, and his father God, there is not one of us who has not sinned, and according to the ten commandments, "Thou shalt not kill."

We always allowed minor transgressions here and there, because society can’t keep a lid on sexual instinct that tightly; nevertheless, monogamous relationship have been the gold standard, the ideal for as long as we can trace back civilized life.

To say that we've allowed "minor transgressions here and there" is a complete oversight of the truth; while monogamy has been a loosely asserted rule, the truth of the matter is that men have typically possessed ownership of women and, especially wealthy men, owned any combination of wives, mistresses or slaves, or solicited prostitutes; all throughout human history we see men fighting in wars with great losses and the victors taking the women of their conquered enemies. At no point were men strongly adhering to tenets of monogamy, but only as a very loosely asserted social standard, as, especially in times of war, women were one commodity that had been in surplus; thus, some of the most successful of warring nations maintained harem structures of women.

Lucy Garnett, in "The Women of Turkey," is explicit in her comparison of our sexual morality and that of the Turks:

"Monogamy has in Christendom been a conventional fiction rather than a social fact. And Christianity, having denied to women all rights in sexual relations except under the sanction of indissoluble monogamous marriage, the social evil has in no civilisation whatever been so hideous in its degradation and misery as in Christendom."

Equally loosely accepted were tenets of religious doctrine, which, contrary to popular opinion, "were never regarded as a literal, explicit, and final statement of the truth." Considering how Christianity is considered more strongly to be the bedrock of Western civilization than the practice of monogamy, and considering the trend of secularism in modern Western tradition, and considering how no civilization has ever been secular before, do you also believe that Religion is necessary and should be enforced for the existence of "high-level civilization"? Slavery, also, has been a staple of every civilization throughout history, and yet despite the separation of Church and State, the population explosion of the twentieth Century nevertheless happened here in the United States. People were eventually allowed to dance without being tried as witches, and we're still here.

In terms of your musings or whether we can survive without "enforced" hetero monogamy... that's pure speculation. I don't see anyone really theorizing too deeply on that.

There is a conversation developing around the new world, with figures such as Christopher Hitchens, and Potts and Hayden, the authors of Sex and War who are championing for women's rights as the solution of poverty and war, showing us how when women are given roles of leadership in society that many of our ills find cures. You may dismiss my rhetoric as mere musings and pure speculation, but ultimately, the truth will be revealed through the test of time, so in the spirit of the Western philosophy, I thank you for participating in this great conversation with me, and I encourage you to continue to develop your personal philosophy, and we will thus find where we are taken by our will and wind. Fare well.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus never declared

It's not productive to talk about what Jesus said or did. Christians don't follow Jesus. If they did, they wouldn't marry at all.

At no point were men strongly adhering to tenets of monogamy

Yes, many here made that point. A point that btw again is irrelevant in light of the fact that publicly, monogamy/marriages have always been held in high regard, even if select few men at some point somewhere didn't adhere to it.

do you also believe that Religion is necessary and should be enforced for the existence of "high-level civilization"?

Either religion or something like a religion. The value here is the voluntary social associations, that we've been dismantling left and right. Religion is one of them.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

it must be organized in such a way that the surplus which is being accumulated is being used to pay for or to utilize the new inventions.

Wait; I thought the government was supposed to confiscate the surplus and redistribute it to the less productive. Also, if government fails to do this, it will result in societal collapse!

You mean progressives have been lying to me?!

[–]UTC241 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

When a hetersexual man advocates monogamy against his own male imperative we know we are living in an age of irony. Men's rights are getting squeezed left and right they're holding onto the noose around their neck as if it's a lifeline.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

When a hetersexual man advocates monogamy against his own male imperative

Like he always done in a civilized world. Because he understood that it's necessary for the existence of said world.

[–]UTC240 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But we're not talking about some philosopher in an ivy tower, we are talking about general male population, against the background of decades of sexual revolution when women's sexualities are celebrated. Advocates of past millenniums used monogamy to counter monopoly of females by ruling class. Now you're trying to use it to counter runaway female sexual selection. Big difference my friend.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

See also: men who think they'd get more poon if abortion and birth control were banned like in the Good Old Days.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think they they they'd get more poon; they think some other guys would get less, and that makes them happy. Misery loves company, y'know?

[–]statusincorporated1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For high-level civilization to exist, it must necessarily restrict sexual instincts.

Lulz, sure.

But why tho?

Oh yeah, because men aren't stupid and if THEIR access to sex isn't restricted, they aren't going to waste their lives in a rat race they can never win, toiling to make some ivory tower dweller richer.

High-level civilization tends to also be high level slavery.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Define your terms. What defines "Western civilization" exactly?

Historically, plenty of civilizations survived for centuries, even millennia, without completely repressing sex outside of monogamous marriages.

Also a citation of Freud is not very good for your case. Freud believed all societal norms around sexuality were culturally constructed. He didn't accept the idea that there were innate evolutionary reasons people usually find incest (for example) grotesque.

nevertheless, monogamous relationship have been the gold standard, the ideal for as long as we can trace back civilized life.

Untrue. Polygamy was practiced regularly in the ancient world (you can find it in the bible even), in civilizations that lasted far longer than Western modernity so far has (Western Modernity and Enlightenment-Era Civilization has been around for like 300 years at most; ancient Egypt lasted a lot longer).

explain why heterosexual monogamy is no longer ideal or relevant.

For some people, heterosexual monogamy is ideal. For others, it isn't. The issue is whether or not we should regard heterosexual monogamy as a duty for all human individuals to engage in.

Please start by explaining what "civilization" is (what defines a "civilization"). Perhaps a brief theory of what makes a civilization "break down" and why. And then explain why sex outside of heteromonogamy necessarily contributes to such breakdown. Because so far I don't see anything beyond a Freud quote.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

What defines "Western civilization" exactly?

Something you can trace back at least to Athenian Democracy.

without completely repressing sex outside of monogamous marriages.

Nice qualifier. Any examples of not-completely repressing sex?

The issue is whether or not we should regard heterosexual monogamy as a duty for all human individuals to engage in.

No that's not the issue in the slightest. We're talking western civilization

then explain why sex outside of heteromonogamy necessarily contributes to such breakdown

Because sex carries reproductive function. It always has, and that's why it was always tightly controlled in all successful societies. Sex life needs to be ordered and sorted out for any powerful civilization to be successful. So much so has the hetero monogamy has been successful, that it has become the standard pretty much everywhere in modern time.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Something you can trace back at least to Athenian Democracy.

Does that include Russian Communism or Italian Fascism or Nazi Germany?

Any examples of not-completely repressing sex?

The ancient world accomodated polygamy and pederasty (the latter was especially common in Athens).

Because sex carries reproductive function. It always has

Contraception before the sexual revolution did exist at least for some time. But the reality is that non-reproductive sex always occurred, contraception was sometimes available, and we are now in a situation where sex and reproduction are almost entirely decoupled.

Because of this technological advance, the rules of the past no longer apply.

Not to mention you didn't provide a definition of civilization, a theory of what civilization ultimately is and what causes it to break down, or some sort of causal explanation as to how non-heteromonogamous sex causes that breakdown to occur.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Does that include Russian Communism or Italian Fascism or Nazi Germany?

In minor ways, yes. They're certainly left their mark.

The ancient world accomodated polygamy and pederasty

You can argue that polygamy may be less sexually repressive (debatable) than monogamy, but you can't argue that its not repressive. I'm not familiar enough with pederasty, but I assume they weren't just fucking children off the streets.

Because of this technological advance, the rules of the past no longer apply.

I'll buy this, but what are current rules then?

some sort of causal explanation as to how non-heteromonogamous sex causes that breakdown

How about this:

  1. We need a system of rearing children to keep the civilization going.

  2. These children need to be productive part of the system, so they need to be raised and educated in a certain ways

  3. We got a whole enterprise going currently (which includes cultural norms, laws, civic institutions, etc...), that relies on and presupposes hetero monogamy. Absent that, what are we going to do instead?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Does that include Russian Communism or Italian Fascism or Nazi Germany?

In minor ways, yes. They're certainly left their mark.

But if those ideologies are part of "Western Civilization" we're dealing with a concept that includes so many absurdly contrary things with so many different permutations that it makes no sense. There has to be some sort of continuity, some sort of shared characteristic or principle, that unites everything within a concept. And I don't see how you can say Russian Communism, German and Italian Fascism, Anglo-American Individualism, all the various types of Christianity, etc. all combined have a common basic shared ideal.

You can argue that polygamy may be less sexually repressive (debatable) than monogamy, but you can't argue that its not repressive. I'm not familiar enough with pederasty, but I assume they weren't just fucking children off the streets.

Well of course Athenian pederasty wasn't "fucking children off the streets."

But now you seem to equate "civilization" with "any kind of sexual taboos at all." You began your argument with the suggestion that anything short of complete hatred of anything which diverged from hetero-monogamy risked the destruction of civilization. Now it seems you're moving the goalposts. Because Athenian pederasty certainly expanded things beyond heterosexual lifelong monogamy.

I'll buy this, but what are current rules then?

From what I see, modern circa-2019 sexual morality in the developed west (at least the Anglo-American west) for heterosexual persons works out to "promiscuity with protection is acceptable for the young, but over time the young should seek a partner through the process of serial monogamy. When the 'right partner' is found, a lifelong union based on True Love will be the result. Should that union be less than perfect, the 'right partner' was not found, and a return to dating is necessary. Rinse and repeat until True Love is achieved. If a woman doesn't find the right partner, it is the fault of men for not providing her with a good-enough partner. If a man doesn't settle down, he's a pig."

I'm not saying I LIKE these rules. But this seems to be a fair summary of what the rules are these days.

How about this:

We need a system of rearing children to keep the civilization going.

These children need to be productive part of the system, so they need to be raised and educated in a certain ways

We got a whole enterprise going currently (which includes cultural norms, laws, civic institutions, etc...), that relies on and presupposes hetero monogamy. Absent that, what are we going to do instead?

That's an extraordinarily weak theory. What is "the civilization"? What makes it a "civilization" rather than just a tribe in the wilderness? What makes a person a "productive" part of the civilization (productive of what?). What way do they need to be raised and educated as a result?

I don't know if you're American, but if you are, you'd probably accept that the Declaration of Independence is part of the "whole enterprise going currently" - but the idea that individuals have the right to pursue their own happiness seems to upset the apple cart of traditional conservatism (you know, for people that tradcon lifestyles do NOT make happy). How do you deal with that?

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

And I don't see how you can say Russian Communism, German and Italian Fascism, Anglo-American Individualism, all the various types of Christianity, etc. all combined have a common basic shared ideal.

for one, everything you named here shares hetero monogamy. For two, modern American, as well as most modern democratic systems have elements of individual freedom/socialism/strong state fused inside them. It's a mixed system.

You began your argument with the suggestion that anything short of complete hatred of anything which diverged from hetero-monogamy risked the destruction of civilization.

I did? Ok if that how it came across then I'm sorry. I was in agreement with Freud that any expression of sexuality is generally inhibited by the civilization, but hetero-monogamy is tolerated because children, and the rest of sexual expressions were generally considered transgressions of various degrees.I think that's in my unedited OP.

In terms of your questions about what constitutes civilization, you can open a dictionary. It's not that difficult.

but the idea that individuals have the right to pursue their own happiness seems to upset the apple cart of traditional conservatism (you know, for people that tradcon lifestyles do NOT make happy). How do you deal with that?

Even in John Locke there's an understanding that individuals don't have unlimited rights to do whatever they want. IDK what particular lifestyle you reference, but its clear that being a homeless drug addict is not quite as good as being an engineer. In the context of civilization that is. In the context of personal happiness, I suspect being drug addict is way more rewarding. Now is being gay as good as being straight? Same answer.

Personally, I don't really care about non-traditional lifestyles, just as long as they don't interfere with traditional ones and get in the way.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

for one, everything you named here shares hetero monogamy.

You said Western Civilization is traceable back to Athenian Democracy. Athenian Democracy had pederasty and polygamy. Rome certainly had polygamy. Anglo-American Individualism is a philosophical "movement in progress" but it was Individualist arguments which resulted in the acceptance of gay marriage and the acceptance of serial monogamy/no fault divorce. In addition, ancient Roman divorce laws were strikingly modern.

For two, modern American, as well as most modern democratic systems have elements of individual freedom/socialism/strong state fused inside them. It's a mixed system.

I agree. If we're going to look at "western civilization" from an historic perspective, we need to accept it is a civilization built from mixed perspectives. Liberal Individualism is one of them. So is Christianity of various kinds. So is Socialism/Marxism. But you're trying to say there's a kind of continuity here. A continuity defined by heteromonogamy. I'm asking you to prove this and so far you haven't. What keeps this huge bundle of differential ideas together? What makes it a single, united, continuous civilization?

So far, I don't see any evidence that it is. You need to give me a meta-narrative that sums up everything from Athens to contemporary Washington DC, uniquely applicable to what you call the "West" and not visible in any other historic civilization.

In terms of your questions about what constitutes civilization, you can open a dictionary. It's not that difficult.

These aren't dictionary-based questions. These are complicated conceptual issues. Cite me a definition. Or provide one. What do YOU mean by "civilization"? What does this "civilization" require?

Even in John Locke there's an understanding that individuals don't have unlimited rights to do whatever they want. IDK what particular lifestyle you reference, but its clear that being a homeless drug addict is not quite as good as being an engineer.

Sure. You don't have the right to murder others, and as Mill pointed out its better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a pig satisfied. We already know this and have known this for at least 200 years. As Herbert Spencer pointed out, the absolute liberty of all is restrained by the like liberty of each: you have no right to murder others because that violates their right to their lives.

This is all obviously true.

In the context of personal happiness, I suspect being drug addict is way more rewarding. Now is being gay as good as being straight? Same answer.

But being gay isn't a drug addiction. From what we know, some people just naturally have a same-sex sexual preference. We know sexual orientation change efforts don't work. We can't just "make people gay" or "make people straight." Not to mention you're completely ignoring bisexuals.

Personally, I don't really care about non-traditional lifestyles, just as long as they don't interfere with traditional ones and get in the way.

How do "some people happen to be queer" get in the way of being straight?

No one is STOPPING or DIS-INCENTIVIZING straight couples.

Apart from a handful of SJW extremists, whom is going around shaming people for being straight?

The mere presence of gay and bi people doesn't interfere with straight people.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Rome certainly had polygamy.

Oh my god. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Rome

Like read that 1st paragraph. I'm getting tired of this shit. The constant what about this esoteric exception to the rule, or what about that researcher who said some coockoo shit theory about some shit, or what about this and that and 5th thing. ENOUGH.

Things are complicated, we all understand it. Those rare nuances and exceptions do not disprove anything I said.

The debates with semi-educated redditors that are at odds with well-established historical narrative that was settled for decades do not interest me. We will never come to any consensus if we keep questioning how some particular part of some minor part of insignificant population was behaving during particular time period under some particular circumstances. It's pure autism that I'm done with.

But being gay isn't a drug addiction. From what we know, some people just naturally have a same-sex sexual preference.

You're again, ignoring larger point. Is being gay better or worse for society/country/ or civilization? At best it's about the same, but since you're likely not having children which we need for said society to run, you're probably a bit more irrelevant.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Things are complicated, we all understand it. Those rare nuances and exceptions do not disprove anything I said.

You claimed civilization was built on the repression the sex drive entirely into the institution of lifelong-monogamous marriage. I demonstrated that civilization accommodated exceptions. This is consistent with a theory that humans are mostly naturally hetero-monogamous, which implies that social repression is unnecessary.

Your argument is premised on the idea that hetero-monogamy is unnatural.

Is it? If so, any "natural law" argument dies.

If heteromonogamy is "natural" why SHOULD we comply with it?

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You claimed civilization was built on the repression the sex drive entirely into the institution of lifelong-monogamous marriage. I demonstrated that civilization accommodated exceptions.

Both statements can be true and co-exist. In fact I have it built in to my OP. Transient periods where greeks fondled kids, and romans had concubines are all true. It also doesn't disprove that marriage was the standard.

This is consistent with a theory that humans are mostly naturally hetero-monogamous,

That's a decent theory, given that its a effective way to propagate the species

which implies that social repression is unnecessary.

I'll accept that as your personal opinion.

Your argument is premised on the idea that hetero-monogamy is unnatural.

It's not. It's premised on the idea that human sexuality is a lot wider than just hetero-monogamy. Had humans had unlimited choice to do what they want sexually, would they naturally choose hetero-monogamy? Maybe. Maybe they'd be more inclined towards non-monogamy whether hetero or otherwise.

[–]mushroomwizardhat0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Look at the state of the world. Does it look good? Humanity fucked up when we settled down to farm and men realised they could keep women and their children as property to ensure the success of their land and thus their wealth. What you're describing is not a good development, it never was in the first place. Heterosexual monogamy has never been the ideal.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

has never been the ideal.

what do you suggest instead?

[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Get off the computer and join a tribe in Papau New Guinea or Brazil then. Put your money where your mouth is.

[–]mushroomwizardhat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not talking about individual human lives but the collective. Truth is if we, everyone, were still living the way we did 15,000 years ago the Earth would still be Eden. Because we aren't, and we're living in a world directed by dominator values and profit, we're going through the sixth mass extinction.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Please dismantle my tradcon fantasy, and explain why heterosexual monogamy is no longer ideal or relevant.

1) Civilizations collapse regardless of their family structures when they run out of some "internal fuel" that still wasn't properly explained.

2) "Saving" collapsing civilizations is neither necessary nor possible.

3) "Western civilization" is a vague term that shapeshifts depending on which out-group is currently in trend. If we take early Rome as a starting point of "Western civilization", then it was pagan, had institution of concubinage and was tolerant to homosexuality, and currently, Spanish, Italian, and French languages are closer to Latin than English.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'll take 1,2 as legit arguments.

3 is nonsense.

"Western civilization" is a vague term

You take the whole thing as a bundle. There's political and social similarities we can trace all the way up until modern times. A lot of our political structures and philosophy we still owe to ancient Greeks.

If we take early Rome as a starting point of "Western civilization", then it was pagan

And?

had institution of concubinage and was tolerant to homosexuality

also had marriage. Which was primary, and was in fact the gold standard. All this other stuff with concubinage, homosexuality or whatever are all peripheral phenomena. In fact we're pretty tolerant of homosexuality today too.

and currently, Spanish, Italian, and French languages are closer to Latin than English.

and what does that have to do with absolutely anything?

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

3 is nonsense.

"Western civilization" is nonsense.

and what does that have to do with absolutely anything?

If ancient Rome is the golden standard of Western civilization, then France, Italy, and Spain had more "cultural" rights to be called "Western civilization" than the Anglosphere. Which makes modern Latin America, in certain sense, "more Western" than the US.

then it was pagan / And? .... There's political and social similarities we can trace all the way up until modern times.

AND, religion goes out of the list of those similarities. Language goes out of the list of those similarities (a lot of people today associate Western civilization with the post-16th century Anglosphere). Political structures in Western Europe were not only insanely different, but also oscillated between different forms of central and distributed government from one century to another. Essentially, "Western civilization" before French and American revolution and after them - are two different civilizations.

Saying "3 is nonsense" is bold for a person who mentions "political and social similarities" and fails to name any.

All this other stuff with concubinage, homosexuality or whatever are all peripheral phenomena. In fact we're pretty tolerant of homosexuality today too.

Yeah, after... how much, 1.5 thousand years of it being a punishable offense?

also had marriage. Which was primary, and was in fact the gold standard.

If by "monogamous relationships" in the OP you meant not "monogamous sexual relationships", but "the legit wife's eldest son inherits the estate", then you should have clarified it. Your post leaves a ... VERY opposite impression. Especially with mentions of Freud.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

had more "cultural" rights

The what? That's not how any of this shit works. Anglosphere is dominating and not because it had cultural rights, but because they were able to be more efficient and ruthless than anyone else.

AND, religion goes out of the list of those similarities.

Any similarities between Socrates and Jesus? Perhaps some moral precepts that are similar?

Language goes out of the list of those similarities

Is English more similar to Spanish and French and German, or to Chinese? Come on now. How about cultural similarities, have englishmen lived more similarly to french or to Arabs?

Yeah, after... how much, 1.5 thousand years of it being a punishable offense?

And maybe 100 years from now, it will once again be a punishable offense. Again, irrelevant in the larger scheme of things, this is your own pet issue. We can generally just say that ideally you won't be oppressed based on your sexuality... ideally... but ideally we can do a lot of other things too.

If by "monogamous relationships" in the OP you meant not "monogamous sexual relationships", but "the legit wife's eldest son inherits the estate", then you should have clarified it.

If you think entire system of marriage was at any point just about the inheritance, that's your personal bias. Which is ridiculous enough thing to say that it doesn't warrant further discussion.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

And maybe 100 years from now, it will once again be a punishable offense. Again, irrelevant in the larger scheme of things

It IS relevant, when an apparent "progenitor" of "western civilization" allowed men to have wives, and concubines and male lovers at the same time. Which is THE OPPOSITE of sexual monogamy.

this is your own pet issue. We can generally just say that ideally you won't be oppressed based on your sexuality... ideally...

You've stopped making sense. I'm not gay, and I don't care about gay rights. If gays stopped being persecuted at all, or vanished tomorrow, my life would not have changed much. Nice attempt at ad hominem, but pretty lame at the same time.

Your weird blinders for some reason allow you to stretch the medieval norms of sexual monogamy and sexuality all the way back onto antiquity and all the way forward into the modernity. I took Rome as a counter-example. You STILL keep ignoring it as a counter-example.

Is English more similar to Spanish and French and German, or to Chinese?

I'd love to see linguistic distances for Asian languages (such as Sanskrit and Persian) relative to European ones, but all I have at hand is data showing that English is almost as distant from Finnish and Estonian as it is from Arabic. You're appealing to some common knowledge that is "common" only among sub-80-IQ white nationalists. There is no unified Europe. There is no unified Western civilization. And there never was.

If you think entire system of marriage was at any point just about the inheritance, that's your personal bias.

I've presented a counter-example showing that within what you call "Western civilization", at a certain point, it was NOT about sexual monogamy. Have a wonderful day.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I took Rome as a counter-example. You STILL keep ignoring it as a counter-example.

You used a place that had monogamous marriages as a counter-example?

There is no unified Europe

EU literally stands for... European Union

There is no unified Western civilization.

If you don't think there was before, you have to agree that there is now. The hallmarks are democracy, various forms of freedom of speech, strong military, English as default international language, capitalism as economic system with a strong social safety net.

[–]bonusfruit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Guess we're doomed

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19930 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

no, it is not a necessary evil. men are the only evil that is not necessary and they better start improving and learning some empathy or we are gonna breed them out of their pitiful existence.

men are not owed sex and children at the expense of women. period.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

or we are gonna breed them out of their pitiful existence

You should probably set up a "fund me" page for that. Sounds like an expensive, multi-generational project.

[–]The_Madmans_Reign18M0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

> breed them out of their pitiful existence

Lol

[–]Moraulf2320 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks! I mean, I have been living on my own for 20 years, so I’m thoroughly convinced that it’s possible to take care of yourself. I think it’s too hard for a lot of people and it doesn’t have to be.

There are plenty of examples of governments with better welfare programs than ours, stronger unions, etc. that allow for the people at the bottom of the economic ladder to lead more comfortable lives. So I don’t buy the “we live in a pragmatic paradise” argument at all - obviously, there are ways to improve.

Immigration is a rabbit hole, but basically the reason liberals are annoyed with closed borders is that they’re unjust and weirdly ahistorical - this country has had HUGE waves of unrestricted immigration in the past, so it seems like slamming the gates shut because the new immigrants are browner than the old ones is just racism. But you’re right that immigrants create competition for jobs. I think part of why I don’t care is that I think if we had better labor representation and hiring workers were more expensive and required a more long-term investment, the “cheap labor” incentive of immigrant hiring would go away, except in cases where Americans simply won’t do the work immigrants will - like post-hole dogging, according to one documentary I watched...

And you’re also right that people aren’t going to work for no reason, so I’m happy with them getting paid. However, I just don’t agree that “the invisible hand” is driving labor prices and deciding on wealth vs. poverty. Government always creates the regulations under which labor and management operate, and right now things are set up so that working people can be badly underpaid, have poor job security, can’t easily unionize, can be fleeced by creditors, have to overpay for necessities, etc. The rich pay lower taxes, their businesses get subsidized, etc. Also, obviously, no rich person could survive without the power of the state defending them with force, so nobody really takes care of themselves.

This isn’t a new problem - history is full of revolutions, and most of them had the same agenda - “cancel debt and redistribute property (usually land)”. I think we are getting to that point in this country.

We could avoid all that violence by just making labor a little less dire and unemployment a little less fatal.

[–]Notanalt4859384Purple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Maybe 100 years ago, but science has come a long way since then, hetero intercourse is no longer required for pregnancy. All sorts of crazy shit is happening baby wise this decade, singles and couples alike from all different sexualities are using sperm banks, donors, surrogates, to have their own children. Plenty of single parents raise just fine children. If the "nuclear family" died tomorrow, we'd survive as a society in this day and age.

And let's say on the flipside, all humans were naturally polygamous since we started as a race then honestly I do believe we'd have survived just fine aswell by now we'd probably just be more tightnit and less separative.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I actually like the idea that we've evolved past the need for hetero monogamy. A brave new world type of scenario. I don't think we're quite got all the wrinkles figured out on what its going to look like yet.

[–]Mayhzon2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Ye well but it's a fever dream because we have not evolved in that way. I'll be very cynical here but it's important to smoke out any utopic falsehoods before they are propagated. Our brains are actually still quite close to monkey mode so don't get any weird ideas.

The only reason why our culture has shifted is because power elites of our society willed it into existence via memes, information, lies, big media and gross changes to economy and technology that have forced women out of their kitchen and taken away the need to have a provider. And that didn't happen to further the human race but to cement their seat of power and our position as eternal wage slaves.

[–]Notanalt4859384Purple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Pull the other one it's got bells on it.

Get outta here with your pseudo biology, you evidentally don't know shit about the human species if you think we're "quite close to monkey mode". What is it with this subreddit and having a completely delusional view on how things ACTUALLY work. For example some guy was like to me the other day "oh so we're gonna make women work now?". Women have been made to work for years by this point, I am proof, no cunt will pay for my life no matter how much I flap my eyes and bounce my tits. Pull your head outta your ass, humans are so different to monkeys, especially by now with our intelligence, discipline, mental durability. I want to know what fucking universe all of you people are living in because it's not fucking this one

[–]Mayhzon-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You seem offended, but my post was really only supposed to be a wakeup call to someone else.

You seem to greatly overestimate our abilities as species though.

Mob mentality, follow the herd behavior, fallacious argumenting in bad faith, "white lies", victim playing, victim blaming, being too comfortable to change things, being in constant chase for sexual release, being ashamed, hiding our shame...

All of these are daily occurances, displayed by us humans for other humans. Observing monkey tribes closely you will see that they engage in the same behavior minus what can only be expressed via advanced speech. We are not all that different from monkeys, just more communicative and deceptive in our execution and for a period of time each day we can concentrate and supress these things. But the instincts for these are still very vividly alive in us. I mean our brains are so simply wired that we literally start to drool in our mouths when we see something delicious or attractive. Or we get super aggressive when someone challenges us or our beliefs... ;)

I think I'm pretty on point as to what our biology is.

Also the handful of decades women have been working full-time (to their own detriment) is a new situation. And if you think that flapping your tits and winking with your eyes can't get your life paid you really haven't been paying attention to instagram and snapchat models. 🤔 It very well can apprently.

They pose a few photos every other day and make much more than you or me with our ordinary honest people work. I'm sorry to say but us humans really haven't come all that far in terms of evolution.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

View changed?

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yea I think it's a path to it. No one as of yet has answered the nitty-gritty details of how things will actually look like, but I suspect some high-tech solution for reproduction, chemical solution for personal happiness and fulfillment and some fundamental cultural changes that do away with other traditional structures.

Alas such technology doesn't exist.

[–]Mayhzon2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or our society will be too weak to continue existing any longer and it will be overrun, crash and burn. The more likely scenario.

I mea we still don't have flying cars...

[–]couldbemage1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

So... You're saying that if people have too much sex they'll all stop showing up at work?

I'm not even going to bother with a list. Just look up what Ben Franklin got up to.

Where does the sheltered basement dwelling incel stereotype come from? Right here. Western civ is all about the extramarital fucking.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So... You're saying that if people have too much sex they'll all stop showing up at work?

You're not thinking about this comprehensively. What makes a good worker? Is it some bastard child of a single mother from a ghetto that screws hood rats? Or is it that MC person from stable home and with a stable relationship? This one should be self-evident.

[–]couldbemage0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You're ignoring married with a mistress, which has been the norm throughout the rise of Western Civilization.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, it never has.

[–]couldbemage-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Read a history book. You're just wrong.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

no you are

we can do this all day homey, burden of proof is on you, you can't just assert bullshit

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I've seen people argue that arranged marriages would solve the single mom problem by having Carol's dad force her to pair up with a Good Man while she is young, fertile, childless and peak-SMV. But historically, arranged marriages between royalty and nobility were a recipe for dead bedrooms and cheating; they were for the purposes of alliances, gaining property, etc., not for sexual or marital compatibility. Louis XIV had mistresses and wasn't faithful at all to his wife. One of those mistresses was the wife of his crossdressing brother Philip, Duke of Orleans, who was obligated to marry and have children to continue the family line despite strongly preferring the sexual company of men. Does forcing Kinsey 4+ men to either stay closeted (with all the downsides thereof--including nastier behavior to others) or cheat (and expose their wife to STDs) sound like a good societal setup?

It's not "force everyone with a penis to man up and marry a woman" is the only traditional structure on the planet. In his memoirs of the Plains tribes, George Catlin writes long rants about how much he hates "berdaches" and hopes the tradition is forgotten. And Catlin was a Noble Savage writer who mostly writes about how great the Plains tribes were.

[–]katymarxPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Monogamy is boring. Fuck civilization and this Earth we are shitting on.

We need Valentine Michael Smith to descend from the heavens now more than ever!!!

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

lol are you in here just low-key bragging about books that you're reading?

[–]katymarxPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

No, its my second favorite book ever, haven't read it in ages. Actually, I'm going to be on a long flight tomorrow, might grab it on Kindle or Audible, good idea!

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

you're welcome, good luck with your... how did you put it? "Chad chasing"?

[–]katymarxPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not chasing, got my fill these past 2 days. The PacNW vacay is mostly hiking and eating, my friend is a big foodie. If we run into a Chad or mountain lion, I'm definitely petting it though!

[–]geyges🐇[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If we run into a Chad or mountain lion

sounds like you'll get ravaged either way

[–]katymarxPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

With further improvement of techonology family won't be needed at all.

People will live for much longer, will breed much less, probably all new people will be artificial.

For high-level civilization to exist, it must necessarily restrict sexual instincts.

What makes you say so? Freud? Freud is not a good authority even in psychology, let alone other things like sociology.

the ideal for as long as we can trace back civilized life.

No, some very ancient societies were polygamous. And they were civilized.

maintain strict organization in all other spheres of life.

I am not sure even this is needed.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

What makes you say so? Freud?

Doesn't matter who said it. If you want to test whether or not it makes sense, just reverse it.

Has a society where people were fucking around haphazardly ever been successful? The venereal diseases and unwanted children are going to be a problem. Essentially if sexual free-for-all was effective economically or culturally we would be doing it right now. Civilization requires HIGH levels of organization and individual oppression most prominently in sexuality and aggression. Any unchecked manifestations of that stuff is damaging to it. This is one of those things that is self-evident (at least to me).

[–]WhistlingDead0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The West has ways to have unlimited sex without venereal diseases or children.

Now what's your argument against promiscuity?

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The West has ways to have unlimited sex without venereal diseases or children.

I'll believe it when I see it in practice.

And even if everyone can mindlessly fuck around without any consequences, there's still a tiny question of what child rearing will look like.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

The venereal diseases

Medicine improves.

unwanted children

Do you really not know yet that infanticide was widespread in medieval ages?

Essentially if sexual free-for-all was effective economically or culturally we would be doing it right now.

Humans are not fully rational, hence false.

Civilization requires HIGH levels of organization and individual oppression most prominently in sexuality and aggression.

Regarding aggression you could replace oppression with suppression. Regarding sexuality I don't think you have anything better than beliefs to support that claim (aside from venereal diseases).

This is one of those things that is self-evident (at least to me).

Evidence often is false.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

LOL ok, so for me to be wrong, all we need to do is cure all the venereal diseases, then kill off all of the unwanted children.

Gotcha.

These are SOME BIG fucking goals

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

then kill off all of the unwanted children.

Lol, birth control is a thing today unlike in medieval ages.

And my point was that monogamy does not help with unwanted children.

Monogamy =/= abstinence.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

monogamy does not help with unwanted children.

Nothing is perfect, but it helps a lot more than non-monogamy. Birth control in relationships can be a lot easier than outside of them. But even unwanted children have better chance of being taken care of within monogamous relationship.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

People value freedom though.

That's the trade-off between freedom and order.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Infanticide is a very good point because it completely reframes the anti-abortion argument that "in the old days people didn't kill unwanted children." Guess what Greek city-states did without abortion, condoms or birth-control pills? They abandoned unwanted children to die in the wilderness. They didn't lovingly care for every child born.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"in the old days people didn't kill unwanted children."

I have not seen such a stupid argument from pro-lifers here (on reddit) yet.

[–]Gai-Tendoh0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Monogamy is fine, but I’m not hetero. Also why are you only concerned about “the West”?

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

why are you only concerned about “the West”?

Why am I concerned about the most dominant and influential culture that ever existed? Because I'm part of it.

[–]Gai-Tendoh0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I said only. It’s right there on the webpage...........l, Isn’t such linear logic supposed to be a hallmark of “the West’s” supposed superiority? ....... Not to mention, culture is but information. Information like that belongs to all. And there is more than one culture comprising “Western civiliation” anyway, correct? Some that have even warred with each other? And people not technically a part of it have reimagined “it’s” ideas to produce wonderful innovations. Many social problems have come into being from its ideas about hierarchy. A lot of ill-conceived technology from it is resulting in catastrophic present and future environmental, health, climate problems, no? Surely not all life on Earth is threatened but a great deal of it is. “Dominant”...ok but that isn’t necessarily a good thing... and “greastest”... you didn’t even give any reasons why you believe that. Come on.

[–]Gai-Tendoh1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Science and reason are good but of late many people just aren’t down with them.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

“Dominant”...ok but that isn’t necessarily a good thing...

I don't really care about what's "good" here. It's good to relax on the beach, but I'm stuck working a 9-5, because that's how I make a living.

and “greastest”... you didn’t even give any reasons why you believe that. Come on.

I didn't say it was "greatest", I said it was most influential. Which is true. You can fly to middle east or africa or asia, and you'll see influence of the west everywhere.

[–]Gai-Tendoh0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

And you still managed to avoid my main original point! But Perhaps it was a glitch that made me see “greatest”. Also the West appropriated a bunch of stuff like algebra and gun powder, to name some.

[–]Gai-Tendoh0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't really care about what's "good" here. It's good to relax on the beach, but I'm stuck working a 9-5, because that's how I make a living. This is so dumb and condescending. You know I meant. A metric of whether or not something is sweet and marshmallow-y is not what I meant and you know it. #muted

[–]SmeggingRightGot flair? Hell yeah!0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thus you get yoga practicing vegan office workers that fuck like whores

So, here's where we see your real agenda.

Yawn.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lol I knew I'd get one of these

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

OP says it as if women who exercise are a bad thing.

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[–]the-lone-squidNot the edible squid4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh well. If western civilization falls i guess I'll take up Islam or something.

Something will take its place

[–]rus9384Misanthrope9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll take up Islam or something.

Like you will have a choice.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

>complimenting Islam to own the libs

At least auth-right people who do this are more self-aware about the political spectrum than auth-right people who think they're on the opposite end of the spectrum from auth-right Islamic theocrats. But I can't help but be sick of all the times on CringeAnarchy I saw posts applauding Islamic theocrats for killing gays and "putting women in their place."

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm always baffled that people are concerned about preserving organizations , structures and even "civilizations", whereas they will have no idea how these will fare once they're dead.

That's as bad as religious fanaticism.

Heck they're might be even a huge meteorite pulverizing the Earth, and all of their actions which they think had an impact (usually nope) would have been in vain.

Like another poster said in another tread: Life is meaningless.

[–]TrueReligionGenesLooxist4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The thing is back in the day "civilizations" fought each other and enslaved each other. That is why its important to preserve the one you are in and make it as strong as possible, it was literally a matter of life and death. The political game at the very top is inherently anarchy, there are no laws and enforced authority governing the actions between nations.

[–]merewautt-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly, it's pure ego. The era and culture I'm living in is special and must be preserved. The civilization I'm born in to is the apex of all possible societies. My culture couldn't possibly be the building block to another one, the way all the others have been for mine since the beginning of time. If things don't stay the same as they were during my peak years, they definitely can't change in neutral or positive ways. Things can't possibly go on after I die, humanity's collapse is surely around the corner.

Every single generation has thought the world was going to end with them. Very few lived through even a temporary "collapse", and exactly zero have lived through a permanent one. 3/4s of the population in Europe and Asia died during the Black Plague. It was literal apocalyptic collapse for them. And a few centuries later we're doing better than they ever could have dreamed. Something similar will probably happen with climate change. The last thing that's going to hurt anything for anyone is slight decreases in marriage and birth rates. Hell, they might be the things that save the 21st century standard of living after the climate change collapse stabilizes. And social issues have basically never been the root cause in society "collapsing". Only issues with resources, disease, and being conquered have even come close.

So many "cultural critics" and tradcons lack the ability to imagine more than ~50 years into the future, tops. And it makes them sound ridiculous in hindsight over and over again, generation after generation. If you're going to talk history and societal collapse, at least have a working knowledge of the concepts and an ability to take The Long View. Or you're going to make a fool out of yourself, and ruin the only ~80 years you probably ever get to be sentient.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Hetero monogamy is literally the default for the vast majority of people. If western civilization falls, it's not gonna be because of the gays.

[–]geyges🐇[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not complaining about the gays, I'm complaining about the sluts.

[–]Iron-Giant169-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

We gotta save the white ppl at all cost

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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