TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

145

You see it all the time on reddit. A girl will ask guys what they think about her making the first move. She gets bombarded with comments supporting the idea and telling her to go for it, and that guys love it when girls take initiative.

Then when you ask a girl who has done it before what her experience is, more often than not it's largely negative. She says doing so made her feel desperate and that the guy wasn't as interested in her because of it. There's a huge disconnect between stated desires and what happens in reality here. Surely someone has to be lying, or at least wrong.

But both statements are true. Guys generally DO like being approached, but things also tends to go nowhere more frequently when it happens that way. The reason for this is due to WHO is involved in each of these scenarios. Here's the best way I can outline it.

  1. Women may not realize how frequently an approach results in rejection- whether it happens then and there or it's simply ceasing contact after exchanging information.
  2. Most men are not accustomed to saying "no" to romantic advances. An interested woman can become a number of things-- a girlfriend, a FWB, a friend, or a one night stand. A man is more likely to say yes even if his interest level is not that high. If he finds out her intentions are more than casual, he has no reason to humor her at all anymore.
  3. THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT- Even women who are okay with approaching do not do so as frequently as men do. Most only do so when they see a guy they find IRRESISTIBLE and can't pass up the opportunity. The problem is that irresistible men are sought after by other women as well. The approaches of women often fail not because of the maneuver itself, but because they involve guys who are so appealing that a woman will swallow her pride and make the first move just to give herself a chance with him.
  4. Like women, men DO actually like being approached. Commenters on reddit aren't bluffing. But approaching doesn't RAISE a woman's value, and an approach from someone not attractive enough serves as nothing more than flattery. It doesn't matter how ballsy you are if you can't measure up to other women he may meet.

[–][deleted] 38 points39 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You missed a 5

Women by and large have no experience approaching. When they do it is often with the grace and subtlety of an 8th grader who's never been taught by anyone how to do it and the approach signals the wrong kinda things. It can be cute as hell if you're already into a girl, but if you're not its just awkward as hell.

Look at lesbians. Lesbian dating is literally a nightmare of "who goes first" because they were neither taught nor given experience how to approach and hit on anyone so girls dating girls is just a mess of "did we intend the night to end up here, or did we both just listen to our anxiety?" most of the time

[–]WhiteningMcClean[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, not a bad addition. I've had girls approach and then get discouraged when I don't show overwhelming enthusiasm, even though I was definitely interested. Women are so used to being subtle that they tend to read guys as if they're women and see things that aren't there. Kinda reminded me of the paranoia I had when I first started talking to girls.

[–]PockASqueeno0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good point. I’m a guy, and even I have this problem. I was raised by a single mom, and I never had that whole “how to approach a woman” lesson. I didn’t even learn until adulthood that this is an actual lesson that teenage boys usually learn in the home.

[–]CainPrice101 points102 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

Number 3 is the main point of this phenomenon.

A nerdy Reddit guy who says he'd love for women to approach guys more is answering for himself, not for all men and all women.

He's a nerdy Reddit guy. The woman asking the question wasn't thinking about him when she asked. She's a mediocre 6-7 and was thinking about the really hot guy at the bar when she asked the question. And when she approaches that really hot guy at the bar, he doesn't care. He'll keep her around as a back-up for nights when he's tired and doesn't feel like going out or nights when he doesn't meet anybody hotter, but he's not thrilled to have her walk up the same way a nerdy Reddit guy would be thrilled. She's just another girl to him.

[–]andrew_rdt26 points27 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Came here just to say this. The guys answering the question love the idea because it never happens to them. The guys who get hit on are thinking "why is this a question, women do it all the time".

[–]WhiteningMcClean[S] 21 points22 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

I thought about including that, but it doesn’t really change anything. Even good looking dudes don’t mind getting approached— they just don’t feel the need to take it further as often.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope24 points25 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Good looking guys want to be approached by hot women, not mediocre women.

[–]RadChadswell 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

It's still flattering to be approached, it's just that you're gonna say no (even to offers for NSA sex right then) so she's going to leave feeling sour about taking that chance.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

NiceGuyTM

You mean, NiceGirlTM?

[–]RadChadswell 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

Same difference. They can act as ridiculous as "Nice Guys".

[–]rus9384Misanthrope3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

True, there even is a sub for them.

[–]KirklandSignatureDad1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

what is it?

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]binkerfluid7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My guess is because women who do this approach only the top notch guys (who will not be approaching these women).

These guys arnt in to the women who are doing this they want to be with the hotter women (who would maybe approach even hotter guys than them)

[–]Lonny_zone1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah it will be the most common scenario I’d think women would feel the desire to approach a guy, and so it can easily end in her getting fuckzoned.

I’d say it’s best for them not to approach.

[–]Reed_49830 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Or just communicate with the guy and tell him they don't just want sex.

[–]Lonny_zone0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Guys might not be too honest when sex is on the table.

[–]Reed_49830 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So AMALT.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Eh, I don't think that's true. I know one really hot guy. He's clever and plays rugby.

He was complaining to me about women always approaching him. He found it annoying. Especially when he already had a girlfriend.

[–]uglygalthrow 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Probably just a humblebrag lol

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I know how it sounds when I type it out, but he was a real genuine guy. Another reason why girls liked him heh.

[–]BABYFACELOSER1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Man, I went out clubbing on saturday, and I don't want to brag, but having women bump into you on the dancefloor trying to get your attention was annoying when I was trying to dance with my mates. I def think it can be annoying. If you haven't received attention like that it can't seem annoying, but it is.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

She's a mediocre 6-7 and was thinking about the really hot guy at the bar when she asked the question.

Why do people keep denying that it's all about looks for men and women?

[–]EminemLovesGrapesSpongebob5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It isn't ALL about looks, but when you can only LOOK it's all you have. The tinder problem.

Looks are a barrier to entry.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then it is all about looks. A good personality is just a given if you have friends.

[–]Reed_49831 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yep. Whenever I see those threads I chuckle because it’s some pathetic low smv skinny fat redditor who doesn’t want to do any of the work

Want to tell these guys a hard truth - Women aren’t approaching you because they are scared mate. They aren’t approaching you because they don’t want to.

[–]binkerfluid2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women aren’t approaching you because they are scared mate. They aren’t approaching you because they don’t want to.

no one thinks that though but they do want to be approached anyway

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Tons of men do on reddit lol

[–]ChadThundagaCockBorderline Personality Wrangler6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I've had women say that the more attractive you are, the more they expect you to make the approach, not them. So even good looking guys may not be approached as much as people on here think.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Never listen to what women say

[–][deleted][🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's not true. If my ass looked like Chris Hemsworth you know I would get approached!

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lets be real though most women are in the 5 range. 4-6 is a way more fair expectation.

[–]Pikachu___2000Addicted to improving myself13 points14 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You want the truth "too easy" or "not attractive enough" I'm all about self improvement. My fitness, financials, style, hygiene, hair etc. I improved in these areas to the point where yeah women stare at me, smile, fidget with their hair/outfit and some even approach.

Thing is because I'm at a level now where a lot of women show indicators of interest. I have a new power dynamic. Multiple women means I have an abundance mentality so one approaching me is subject to higher scrutiny against my other options. Same as it is with pretty women. A guy approaches her if he's not on the level of the guys she's used to then it's most likely going to end in rejection.

On the other hand she may just not be attractive enough. I only go for 7's and up, if a 6 approaches me I just let her down easy.

So to sum it all up guys who say YES approach me are most likely guys who don't have any options who would be extremely excited that a girl showed interest in them because it would be the only girl showing interest in them. Desirable guys have many girls interested in them so it's not a big deal really. Remember your average redditor looks like this.

[–]revente8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, most of the times i was actively approached in clubs, were when i was in the zone and "the life of the party", and felt that i could approach the most attractive girls in the venue. Most the girls that approached me were average at the best. One time when the girl approaching was actually beautiful, she was so drunk and annoying i decided to pass.

[–]Akashe886 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Remember your average redditor looks like

this.

DEAR GODS, the dog is the hottest one there.

[–]binkerfluid4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

the girl above the dog looks normal

[–]Naebany2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Some guys in the back on the right look normal. But the quality is shit.

[–]ready2ropePinkpilled former femcel1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So to sum it all up guys who say YES approach me are most likely guys who don't have any options who would be extremely excited that a girl showed interest in them because it would be the only girl showing interest in them.

This has been my experience with men. The few who've ever acted like they're interested in me only are for this reason.

[–]goldmedalflower12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then when you ask a girl who has done it before what her experience is, more often than not it's largely negative

Without question, this almost always is related to her targeting a guy way, way out of her league. As you said, the only times women feel enough desire to step outside their comfort zone is when the guy is extremely attractive.

[–]sniper19051 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or social status. As long as his SMV is high then yeah. Leo ain’t cute anymore but bitches would get on their knees faster then Leo himself approaching his Oscar award.

[–]CyJackX6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think it's simpler than most of this. Girls just don't have practice approaching, and thus do it without the right amount of charm. Just like girls don't like being approached without tact, neither do guys. Everybody despises open desperation, and subtlety is a way to mask it.

[–]AlanTheGr8MotherNatureBuiltThePatriarchyThankHer4It8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This. I'm a musician and therefore attract a lot of chicks. And get approached by a lot of males (that wanted to talk to me, tell me I'm great, not necessessarily hit on me) too so now I know a lot about how women (do and don't) want to be approached simply because I get approached a lot.

First off -- if a girl touches me -- especially if she pokes me -- I'd just as soon (figuratively) knock her out. Nothing pisses me off more than a stranger touching me or poking me like a steak.

Secondly -- DO NOT -- spill a drink on me, grab me, or come at me from the side out of my peripheral vision.

When I approach(ed) girls -- which I don't anymore now that I'm MGTOW --- I would ALWAYS move from, say, their side, to way out in front of them where they could clearly see me, then slowly and non chalantly walk toward them and casually say hi and strike up a conversation. That way they knew I was there, they could see me before I got there, they knew I was headed there way, etc... That always worked very well and I was great at chatting up chicks. (Til I swore off them).

NEVER do a bee line and swarm on anyone whether they are a male or a female, it is just creepy as fuck, and whether you are hot chick, popular musician, whatever, you've been creeped out enough and harrassed enough by strangers that it just isn't fun. Trust me, it's not fun. Being a hot musician is like being a hot chick.

You have to play it cool.... But yes, girls have little experience in approaching guys and trust me just going for the throat is not going to get a good reaction.

Also, what I did to them (and they should do to guys) is say something original. I never said anything canned to anyone. They can say "Hey, you're a really good singer, or I liked when you played XYZ".

One chick came up and told me that she liked my shirt (which is one of my best shirts because it shows off my forearm muscles, which are strong from being a guitarist) and asked if she could take a pic and I thought she was the biggest idiot in the world. So there you have it.... :)

[–]SevenDrunkMidgetsA darker shade of purple3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yup, when girls approach me they always make it extremely awkward. I've had girls in high school and even now in college do that stupid 'playful' kick and punch you thing like they're in elementary school, to the point where whatever cutesy charm that could have just boils over into being fucking annoying. Women's social skills go straight out the window when they approach, especially if they're attractive and think that I'm going to entertain her just because of that. Don't talk to me like you know me.

All a guy needs or really wants is general IOIs and subtle banter which gives us the green light to take it further. Smiles across the room, saying hi with a little smirk, stuff like that.

[–]FlyingResearcher7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then when you ask a girl who has done it before what her experience is, more often than not it's largely negative.

If you ask a man the same thing, his response is going to be the same.

All she's done is gotten a glimpse into what it's like to be a man.

And, rather predictably, she didn't like it. So she goes back to her sheltered, easy / privileged life as a woman, where she doesn't have to experience those sorts of things.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

“Watch what they do, not what they say” applies to men as well

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, but in dating men are much more honest with their intentions

[–]EminemLovesGrapesSpongebob2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Male overt vs female covert.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple21 points22 points  (41 children) | Copy Link

The worst feeling for a woman is feeling like you are more invested in a man than he is in you.

Being the one to approach sets a relationship off with that feeling. Since women are more risk avoidant, it makes sense why they'd rather wait for guaranteed interest.

And this is coming from my own experience because from the start of my relationship I initiated almost all of it and from the start I was way more into it. It became a point of contention because my level of investment made my boyfriend feel guilty like he was doing something wrong. It eventually leveled out but it was rough in the beginning.

[–]passepar2t31 points32 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

> The worst feeling for a woman is feeling like you are more invested in a man than he is in you.

/thread

[–]DREADC0RSAIRNo Pill | Just Dead Inside31 points32 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The worst feeling for a woman is feeling like you are more invested in a man than he is in you.

And vice versa, the race to see who cares the least continues

[–]binkerfluid8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I learned this with my ex and once you realize this its really depressing

[–]TheReformist9446 points47 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Boohoo. Welcome to being a man.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not if they can help it.

[–]binkerfluid2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I assumed that post was written by a man

[–]WhiteningMcClean[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Makes sense. The point of the post isn't necessarily to convince women to do so more, but just to explain why there's such a staunch difference in experiences.

The best move is probably to show interest without actually going as far as to ask the guy out. Even if you make it obvious, once he actually makes the move things even out again with regard to investment.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The worst feeling for a woman is feeling like you are more invested in a man than he is in you.

This is saying she enjoys having that kind of power over him and wants him to bring more value than she is willing to offer in return.

Ironically, her chasing him keeps them together far longer than when he's the one trying to prove himself to her.

[–]tickledpic5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The worst feeling for a woman is feeling like you are more invested in a man than he is in you.

Not when it comes to sexual desire. Women love feeling like they want sex more than the man does. Especially if sex hasn't happened yet.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The worst feeling for a woman is feeling like you are more invested in a man than he is in you.

Whelp. Too bad for my GF then I guess. Hope she can live with it.

[–]ActiveShitter 1 points [recovered]  (30 children) | Copy Link

This is why I don't understand why women see rape as a bad thing. Imagine a guy finds you so hot and attractive that he'd risk 10 years in jail to fuck you. It should be an honor.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple10 points11 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

You wouldn't be flattered if someone stole your car.

[–]ActiveShitter-3 points-2 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

A car is just a property. It's not the same thing as my innate physical attractiveness.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple6 points7 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

The feeling of violation is the same.

Someone came into your space to take your shit.

And then imagine having to watch them do it and not having the strength to stop them.

[–]ActiveShitter 1 points [recovered]  (16 children) | Copy Link

Yes but a car costs thousands of dollars. A vagina on the other hand is evolved to have a penis go inside it. PIV sex is just a normal intercourse. You don't lose anything with rape except a few minutes of your time, an inconvenience for sure but it's not like you would have done something much more productive during that time.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple8 points9 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

First, you're over estimating the amount of selectivity that goes into rape. It's opportunistic.

Second, you're the guy who doesn't think a man holding you down and sticking his penis in your asshole is a bad thing.

So on that premise, there really is nothing bad anyone can do to you.

[–]ActiveShitter-1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Rape is even more selective than consensual sex because the rapist is risking far more than a guy who's asking permission, so he will make sure she's worthed. It's mostly average looking women and ugly women who have regular sex. But the super attractive erection inducing women are almost impossible to get for the average man, that's why they resort to rape. No other chance of experiencing sex with her.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple10 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I still disagree. The rapist is taking what he can get. He can only rape if the opportunity presents itself, and it's not going to present itself with every woman. Only the ones who are vulnerable and are at the wrong place at the wrong time.

But it doesn't matter if he chose you out of a handful of others. Any feeling of being 'special' is completely outweighed by the amount of disrespect, violation and dehumanization the rapist has shown to the victim.

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Okay, so three gay dudes overpowering and raping you are paying you a compliment?

[–]binkerfluid4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

dude you have no idea how many old women, homeless, fat and ugly women get raped all the time though.

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains[M] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is unabashed incel content and you don't have a history of posting here. Keep that shit in Braincels.

[–]ActiveShitter2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sorry :(

[–]Shadesbane431 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Seeing the comments that got left makes me really glad the ones that got removed were removed.

[–]Barneysparky3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Are you also a stalker? With this talk of selection there must be pre-selection for it to be something "good" in your mind.

Are there girls that need to be protected from You?

[–]FlyingResearcher3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's actually uglier women who get raped more often.

"Lust" is not a common motivator for rape like you're implying. It's usually things like hatred, anger, or dominance that motivate it.

[–]Barneysparky6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Incels give a unique opportunity into the minds of potential rapists. You come across as someone who desires to be raped yourself, as your only form of good human interaction is a very primal level of desire.

Twice in my life I have actively looked around for someone to just have sex with. Both times I picked a hot guy.

I have however had many friends who I also have sex with. Basically if I liked you, we shared the same kinks, were around my age, and we hung out one on one I was down. I've had maybe 20 fwbs in my lifetime, and they vary greatly in attractiveness levels.

My husband of 20 years has the only deal breaking (besides obesity) physical feature for me. He has no idea what that is, because he is sweet and kind and I trust that he loves me for me, and he likes women.

My daughter has aspergers. I'm sure she can't be the most pleasent girl to date but neither are the guys she dates. She's 32, doesn't desire to have kids, and introduces me to frankly one freak after another. In a nice way most of the time. There are girls out there who date weird guys, but they are the weird girls who don't make eye contact. All my kid has going for her socially is she's the one who approaches.

[–]FlyingResearcher3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Good thing rape is actually as common of an occurrence for men as it is for women. A slightly larger percentage of men rape people compared to women, but it's within literally a couple of percentage points. Men are raped by women at essentially the same rate as the reverse.

He might be a little old for a good portion of female rapists though... And also potentially not attractive enough, by his own logic.

[–]Barneysparky0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Alt account?

[–]liquidsnakex0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Probably not, but either way try to attack the argument rather than the person, anything else is blatant ad hominem and has no place in adebate sub.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is why I don't understand why women see rape as a bad thing. Imagine a guy finds you so hot that he'd risk 10 years in jail to fuck you. It should be an honor.

At best women fantasise about being ravished.

But rape is not an honour.

[–]ActiveShitter-5 points-4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think they should still see it as a complement to their attractiveness.

[–]praisethesun799Not actually a fag 😉4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol insane incel garbage , go back to the sewers

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats a bit harsh.

[–]Wandos7naproxen sodium1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Imagine a guy finds you so hot that he'd risk 10 years in jail to fuck you.

These 88 year olds, so hot right now.

[–]Bayard202 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, men will fuck anything. Thank you very much.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Majority of women fetishize it for that reason

[–]neubiiAUT3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I (male/25) like to be approached but in a subtle way, when you come up to me and Flat out flirt and show me you want to jump on my dick, its a huge turn off. Just start the conversation, if the man is into you it should get easy from there anyway, he will put in some effort. Push and pull. Most men wait for the right moment, even more when he is shy and has a crush on you. If you both have no activities or reason to be together, you will never meet him (speaking here from experience). If you have a crush and want to make something happen, just take the first step and break the ice. If hes into you too, he will approach you in the future and things will go on more smoothly from there.

[–]reeearnakedchokereeeee2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe to add to point one, women don't realize that a successful approach is the beginning of the work not the end. So men may interpret an approach and no continued interest is as no interest or aren't as keen to keep up interest on their end like they would with a girl that they approached.

[–]bonusfruit2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You realize the vast majority of male approaches to women end up in rejection? But women still claim they want to be approached. There is no conflict. There are just a lot of unattractive people and a lot of picky people. This applies even when the sexes are reversed

[–]WhiteningMcClean[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol literally read the first sentence of my first point

[–]Xemnas816 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Most high SMV men want the chase, obviously most women only bother feeling approach anxiety dor these guys, and since they get rejected, they conclude 'men' want to control women and it's better to make 'men' (meaning low average guys) approach/be rejected

[–]Sadismx3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Omg ur back

PPD hall of gamer right here guys

[–]Xemnas811 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hi! Afraid to say I don't recognise the username...but sounds like cxj or Wassup?

[–]skystar862 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women should make friends with the guys they're interested and attempt to get closer and closer indirectly until he hits on her. Then there's no direct rejection and she gets to scope him out for a long time without having to be in a relationship with him.

[–]ready2ropePinkpilled former femcel2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Some of this actually hits the nail on the head with most of my experiences as a woman asking men out.

First, I started off insecure and wondering why men didn't approach me or pursue me. Then I hear people preaching that "men are nervous and if guys aren't asking you out it's probably because they're afraid of rejection, yada yada yada." Well, okay then. I started taking some initiative and flirting with men I thought were cute, asking guys out etc. And i'll also note that these were men I found attractive by my standards - not objectively 10/10. On average, I think appearance-wise the kinds of men I find physically attractive are not your average Chris Evans or who the hell ever. I've known from a young age where I stand, anyway, so men particularly above me SMV-wise are basically invisible to me.

I'd say the vast majority of the time, I had lukewarm responses to outright rejection. The couple of relationships i've been in, I was never pursued - I initiated most of the firsts. The last relationship I was in, I chased the guy for months (not a good look and it makes me cringe to think about, i'll admit, but he told me he was just hesitant).As a subpar woman in today's society, I know men aren't going to go looking for me, ever. Fuck, even the worst experiences i've had with men were because I was an opportunity at the time, by showing interest. I'm not even good enough for a man to *want* to go out of his way to use me.

That's the reality of it.

Also probably worth adding - I think when *men* imagine being pursued by *women*, they imagine much more attractive women showing interest than the ones that actually would. The Stacey from your college class isn't going to suddenly confess an undeniable attraction to you and ask you out for drinks. Like you said, OP, those women pursuing guys who aren't into them aren't much more than an ego boost for them.

[–]jessicaannpin2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A direct female on male approach really is less well received than an indirect approach.

With the best looking guy I’ve ever met in my life, I was successful with an indirect approach. He is also the most popular on The League dating app in San Francisco.

I simply took off my jacket so I’d look sexier in my silk tank, and I walked past him smiling. As I walked past, he caught my eye and said, “Hey you’re tall.” So that’s how we started talking.

With a less smart, less good looking guy I saw at a show, I took a direct approach. I walked right up to him and said, “Hi, I’m Jessica, how are you?” Maybe the problem was that I was a bit awkward. I crashed and burned. He was single, but he wasn’t even interested in something casual.

I personally rarely get hit on at all unless I at least use an indirect approach. If I go to a bar by myself and just stand or sit on my phone, sometimes a guy will talk to me. But usually I have to actually look around, make eye contact, and smile at the one I want or no one is going to approach me.

[–]Ofourkind15 points16 points  (59 children) | Copy Link

A lot of men here completely ignore one of the main reasons why women don't go around approaching men they may be interested in

Empathy

Pretty much all women hate to be bothered by cold approaches while they're just going about their day. We consider it rude and invasive. People with common decency at least try to follow the golden rule. If I like a guy, I'm not going to do something to him that I consider rude, like interrupt him while he's just trying to buy groceries or read a book in a cafe.

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater47 points48 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

This is bullshit of the highest order. I've been that dude in the coffee shop with a book and I've caught women eyefucking me. Their lack of approach mainly comes down to them trying to somehow goad me into making the first move.

[–]WhiteningMcClean[S] 7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I have to agree. If a guy is busy with something else it’ll be pretty obvious. But most single dudes will scope out a place for women when they settle in.

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but the REAL funny part is men have no problem coming up to me for minor BS reasons and starting conversations. I've made a few friends that way. At one point there was a chick trying to pose and make eye contact a seat over from me, but before I could even try an opener a dude came up from behind me to ask about my book. I couldn't really back out and all she could do was stare fucking furious as we had a conversation in front of her.

I legit don't mind being interrupted. I always wonder about people who moan about being forced to interact with others.

[–]ZeebussFederal Boob Inspector16 points17 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I always wonder about people who moan about being forced to interact with others.

I have a theory. The fact that so many of these discussions happen online applies a system-wide bias to the discourse. Of course it is perfectly normal for mainstream folks to spend time online, but most internet comments, forum posts, articles, blogs, are more likely written and submitted by people who spend a great deal of time online.

That same demographic is also disproportionately introverted, afflicted with social anxieties and depression, low self esteem, and expose themselves to lots of toxic echo chambers and news reporting. As such they will reflect a more-dour-than-average opinion of people and socializing.

Extroverts who like people are outside with their friends and loved ones, not browsing posts about how difficult people are.

[–]binkerfluid1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That same demographic is also disproportionately introverted, afflicted with social anxieties and depression, low self esteem, and expose themselves to lots of toxic echo chambers and news reporting. As such they will reflect a more-dour-than-average opinion of people and socializing.

hit my nail right on the head

[–]goldmedalflower1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

a dude came up from behind me to ask about my book

According to reddit women, this a violation bordering on assault

[–]binkerfluid0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I always wonder about people who moan about being forced to interact with others.

some of us are weirdos with probably something broken in our brains?

[–]Ofourkind0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

And you can read their minds?

[–]indaknffr10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So is leering rude or not? BTW, it's not socially unconventional to meet and chat people up in coffee shops

[–]Ofourkind-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I personally consider staring rude. So I don't do it.

See how that works?

[–]indaknffr3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So those women who stared at the guy you replied to don't have this so-called empathy? The idea that women don't approach men out of empathy is laughable. Many have their own ways of showing interest in a guy they like. They just do it in more indirect ways to protect their ego from rejection.

[–]TheReformist9419 points20 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much all women hate to he bothered UNLESS ITS CHAD. fixed it for you 😂

[–]Ofourkind5 points6 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Women don't generally cold approach "Chad" either. A vast majority of women never cold approach anyone, ever.

Because they know how it feels to be intruded upon.

[–]Rognin7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

And when they do cold approach, they learn about the awful feeling of rejection every man feels. But eventually you get use to it, just like the rudeness of cold approaches I'd imagine...

Edit: wording

[–]Ofourkind3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Let me ask you this

Do you think men are less likely to reject at least partially because they empathize with what that feels like?

[–]binkerfluid4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I dont think so, I do think we feel badly about it and try to be nice about it though.

[–]Rognin0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think we're less likely to reject. We'll probably be much more sympathetic when doing so however, as we understand how crushing rejection sometime can feel.

[–]Ofourkind0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men are much less likely to reject. At all levels of a relationship.

[–]FlyingResearcher8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much. Women try acting like men for an evening, realize how much it sucks, and then quickly give up, going back to the easy, privileged life that they're used to.

Like it takes a bit of work. I know that's something that's difficult for a lot of women (and probably something they don't even realize, given how poorly most women empathize with men). But if you actually put in a fraction of the amount of work that most men do, then it would probably have gotten you somewhere.

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think women tend to be a lot more outcome-independant about it, like make some smalltalk and see if the guy's interesting or not.

[–]TheReformist942 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

🤔ok

[–]CamoWoobie10000Women are SHIT0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

He is saying, a lot of women would not mind being approached if it was by Chad

[–]Ofourkind1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Even attractive dudes get a hard no a bast majority of the time if they just walk right up to women and hit on them. That's just incel nonsense.

[–]CamoWoobie10000Women are SHIT3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The point being that most girls say "most girls dont want to be approached randomly in public" when most women would/have made an exception for a guy before. So I think it makes sense for a guy to think he can be that exception if he asks enough women, especially if "attractiveness is subjective"

[–]Ofourkind1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Be honest.

How many couples do you know that met in this way?

Cold approach is the most common and yet least successful method for asking someone for a date.

[–]binkerfluid2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

honest for me I never do it just doesnt make much sense.

[–]oneprettycoolcat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ask me how I know you've never spent any time around attractive men.

[–]binkerfluid0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I doubt thats why they do it though

[–]MasonMan12348 points9 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

That's not true for most women, since as far as I'm concerned cold approaches are mostly done at parties or social gatherings.

Low self-esteem

Most women don't approach men as much for fears of getting rejected by a man, since women are more sensitive than men on average they take rejection a lot harder than men do.

[–]Ofourkind1 point2 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Lol

There are multiple subreddits with thousands and thousands of posts of men whining about rejection. I can think of one teeny tiny sub like that for women. Even science shows that men are much more sensitive to rejection and take much longer than women to recover from it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/it-s-man-s-and-woman-s-world/201412/why-breakups-are-actually-tougher-men?tr=HdrQuote

[–]webernicke20 points21 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

There are multiple subreddits with thousands and thousands of posts of men whining about rejection. I can think of one teeny tiny sub like that for women.

Because women generally don't approach. Why would they need a sub?

[–]Ofourkind1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Read the studies cited in the article I provided

[–]webernicke13 points14 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

In an article about which gender deals with breakups worse, you want me to comb their sources trying to find tangential info on how often women approach men?

GTFO.

[–]Ofourkind3 points4 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Read the studies cited. They address that.

Or don't and just pretend like you have a valid point.

[–]webernicke12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Since you seem to be so well acquainted with these studies, how about you just give me a stat point, or a quote or something instead of having me read through 17 research papers that seem to be barely relevant to the point that I'm actually making (i.e. that women don't approach near enough compared to men to justify any kind of online community.) I didn't realize that was a controversial observation on this sub or in the general mainstream understanding of how dating works. I have no issue with the idea that women may deal with rejection better than men, however.

[–]Ofourkind-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not going to read the studies to you like a bedtime story. It took me about 5 minutes to read them.

[–]webernicke3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your papers in school must have been a joy to grade. "Here's my argument with no direct evidence or citations from my sources. Read my entire bibliography cover to cover to figure out whether or not I'm full of shit."

[–]FlyingResearcher3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Actually your study says nothing of the sort.

A breakup is not the same thing as being rejected.

And of course men take breakups worse than women. Men are the ones who put in all the work, invest all their time, energy and money, and are the ones who have the most to lose from a breakup. Women are there mostly for the ride and the free food, so they don't care as much.

[–]Ofourkind0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Read the studies contained, not just the article

[–]FlyingResearcher3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've seen most of these studies before. If there's a specific one that you think is relevant, feel free to post it.

Otherwise I'm calling bs on your claim.

[–]reeearnakedchokereeeee3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I read the source titles and didn't find one that seemed directly related to approach rejection hurting either gender more. If you contextualize rejection to a divorce or breakup, then the article you linked is relevant. That's not the context we're talking about rejection in though.

On the article linked though, hasn't it been shown that men handle divorce and breakups worse because they have no social support system, or a weaker one than most women? It's mentioned in the article you linked at least. So just the sub-title "A range of studies shows that men are less steady on their own than women." starts to be disingenuous because women in those situations aren't 'on their own'. Men must be steadier on their own because they're actually by definition on their own when they break up/divorce.

[–]FlyingResearcher4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Most women are being supported, usually by men to one degrees or another.

Men on the other hand are expected to support themselves, and have enough excess to support other people, especially other women.

That's just how things work. Women never have to worry about wasting their time and money (something that is necessary for survival as a man, but is simply a perk for a woman) on a relationship that doesn't go anywhere. So of course women care less about relationships and breakups than men do. It's not like they're risking anything substantial in the process, so why should they care when it doesn't work out?

[–]reeearnakedchokereeeee0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most women are being supported, usually by men to one degrees or another.

I disagree completely. I actually think women do the vast majority of emotional supporting for each other *and* for the few men who seek it out. The root of the issue is what causes men to not seek it out, and I think many of those factors women are just as responsible as men for propagating. Women losing attraction when their man opens up etc.

Men on the other hand are expected to support themselves, and have enough excess to support other people, especially other women.

Support in what way? Emotionally? That article the OP linked said women would come to their husband as emotional support only 39% of the time(could be wrong I haven't re-read it since I made my first comment here).

That's just how things work. Women never have to worry about wasting their time and money (something that is necessary for survival as a man, but is simply a perk for a woman) on a relationship that doesn't go anywhere. So of course women care less about relationships and breakups than men do. It's not like they're risking anything substantial in the process, so why should they care when it doesn't work out?

Incel screed. cbf.

[–]revente8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Comparing divorce to cold approach rejection isn't really honest. It's pretty obvious that there are more posts about men whining because they do the vast majority of approaches...

[–]FlyingResearcher6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not to mention a man losses a whole hell of a lot more in a divorce than the woman does.

He might lose,

  • His children
  • His friends
  • His reputation
  • His home
  • His car
  • Most of his belongings
  • Decades worth of savings and retirement
  • A significant portion of his future income
  • His financial and bodily autonomy
  • He might even wind up in jail
  • Etc etc

And what has the woman lost? At that point she probably doesn't even like the guy, and likely has no empathy for the destruction that she's created. And with all the anti-male shaming language and pro-female "you go girl" stuff, she's going to be convinced that she did the right thing, so she likely won't even feel guilty from it.

[–]webernicke12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

More like cowardice and/or social conditioning masquerading as "empathy." Most women have no qualms rapidfiring IOIs at a hot enough guy no matter what he's busy doing, trying to entice him to make an approach.

And in the reverse situation, most of the "don't approach me at the gym/grocery/wherever," is entirely directed at unattractive men. When the guy is attractive those approaches become your standard "how we met" stories shared among girlfriends.

[–]goldmedalflower1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

More like cowardice and/or social conditioning masquerading as "empathy."

So true. LOL.

Nailed it.

[–]Akashe884 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is dumb as fuck.

Women don't approach men because they lack a spine, bravery, they are far less likely to take risks, and are generally narcissistic, entitled people.

lmao, this has nothing to do with empathy

[–]oneprettycoolcat6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pbullshit. No one feels empathy for men:

[–]shonenhikada4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol at this bs. Women find 80% of men unattractive physically. Just as you would have no desire to approach Oprah, women have no desire to approach most men. The men they do find attractive they will approach.

Women are with most men for their resources and security.

[–]darksoldierkPurple Pill5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you are misusing the word "empathy". Empathy is a person's ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes. You aren't putting yourself in men's shoes when you think they would find it rude if you cold approached them. That's not empathy. In fact, if women were more empathetic with men, they would approach more. If women were capable of understanding that most men get rejected so often, that they are told that they are attractive so few times in their lives, then that would drive them to approach men more. THAT's empathy, being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes when it comes to situations that you have not experienced in the same way.

What you are describing is more projection than empathy. You think it's rude when men cold approach you, and therefore, you are projecting your emotions of that same situations to others and believe that those others would behave and think the way you behave and think in that situation.

[–]binkerfluid0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

that they are told that they are attractive so few times in their lives

I dont think they realize how little we get any kind of compliments or support pretty much ever.

I dont blame them or anything I just think people dont realize it. We pretty much NEVER do (or at least a lot of men are this way)

[–]indaknffr1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Says the person who thinks women can touch men at will, but not vice versa...

[–]Ofourkind0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Care to point out where I've ever said anything of the sort?

[–]binkerfluid0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

same for us now that the media and celebrity women are telling to constantly not approach women.

i get it if I were like really good looking it would be different and most of the time women would be more understanding but I understand that Im not and attention from me is going to generally be unwanted so its not something I do.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

(licks fingers)

"Mmmmm. that's some good WaW!"

[–]Bntt89-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's such nonsense, it isn't even that enormous of a deal you are just talk to then fir 1 min or so c'mon it isn't that big of a deal.

[–]wtknightGen X Slacker4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have only been approached by lower value women. As I’m not interested in casual sex, I fail to see the value in it. Men should be doing the approaching, unless a woman is not bothered by a higher than average probability that her approach will result in a pump and dump.

[–][deleted][🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have an insight into this subject that has not been considered anywhere on the internet (hyperbole). The reason why there is such a disconnect is the following. Guys online who encourage the woman to approach are for the most part, not the guys who would be approached. They are largely the guys who have to put in the effort. Men who would be approached by women, are high value, very good looking. They have all the options so they are more likely to pass on a chick who is throwing herself at him.

Overall, average guys are the ones who want to be approached, and the ones who express their desire. The high smv men with good facial structure and other traits already have their pick of the litter and are likely to be approached. Ostensibly there is a disconnect. In reality, there isn't.

[–]madmadGRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don’t have different experiences at all. The facts are the facts. What happened happened but the expectations and reality may not match what was expected.

This is a weird squishy area of the current scene in America post #metoo. Men were condemned for approaching women and all advances are deemed “creepy” and all men are a potential rapist.

Nobody is familiar with flipping the script. Nobody knows how to do the dance - of the woman advancing first.

Personally I don’t think it’s normal. I think men should be the ones to make the first move but then I also think #metoo was a pile of shit which was super regressive and is taking us all backwards.

[–]grand_tiremasterjust curious1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I told my boyfriend that I have asked out guys before and he was baffled. I told him "men hardly approach anymore" and he said called them (other men) a bunch of beta cucks. Lol.

[–]UTC241 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I put some thoughts on how I dress when I go out so I never fail to draw some attention from strange women if I want to. Yet I have never been approached from random women. Plenty of women are attracted, they hang around you for no reason and may find excuses to talk to you but they have never blatantly asked my number or anything like that. No guys I know have been approached like that. Apparently we are all not attractive enough, lol, or simply we haven't bumped into women who do this. I think this is more about a particular type of women than any guys attractiveness.

[–]aidsgoblin1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One other large disconnect that is largely overlooked by women that I think you're missing on this list is what actually qualifies as "approaching" a guy. For the record, approaching requires you to actually be the one to talk first and be DIRECT. Getting nearer a guy and sending him "hints" is not approaching. That's the same old unreadable bullshit that got you into this mess. I read this shit all the time where women claim they tried approaching guys only to find out, after pulling it out of them like teeth, that they were just playing the same tired old game they were before and convincing themselves they were actually approaching guys.

[–]Naebany1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When men want women to approach them they are not lying. It's just that man that are 5s and 6s want 5s and 6s to approach them. But those women approach 7s and up. They always overestimate their value. And they got to be quite desperate because barely anyone approaches them. Most of the girls approaching me were way below my league. Fatties and whatnot.

Before you say that's my league. Nope. I fuck and date much hotter women than them. Maybe not 8s but at least 6s or 7s. And those were 3s or 4s at best.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

LOL no, men and women have different "experiences" when it comes to this because only ONE of those groups have actual experience with women approaching. The men who say this are talking about a complete fantasy scenario where the manix pixie dream girl they've been crushing on suddenly asks them out. They're not speaking from any real experience of this happening which is why you predominantly see this sort of advice on places like reddit where the undersexed tend to congregate. Ask a group of hot frat guys if they like when girls hit on them and they'll tell you quite frankly "what, you mean to get fucked? because that sort of thing is desperate"

[–]WhiteningMcClean[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Eh, college is different. I'm 25 so I don't even consider that dynamic anymore. In college you can get pussy/dick 7 days a week and twice on Saturday if you know what you're doing. You meet people constantly.

In the real world, people are busy working and not constantly surrounded by thousands of peers exactly their age. You simply don't meet people as often, especially if you're not in a big city. It's not nearly as desperate for a girl to approach once this is the case.

[–]binkerfluid1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep I work with the same 5-9 people every week and the only other people there are usually quite a bit older than me. It would be amazing to be in a place where there were a ton of available people my age.

[–]mandoa_sky1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

hang on, if we're not attracted to someone, why should we approach?

it doesn't make sense.

[–]insultin_crayon1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don’t listen to what men say. They have no idea what they want. Their actions indicate they will say they want one thing, only to dismiss it for the exact opposite.

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[–]Christian_Kong80% Natural Red2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much every woman I know that approaches brags about how they get they men they want when they want. They are probably full of shit and deal with some rejection but probably have a pretty high success rate, or at least more successful than the average guy.

I do agree with top comments here saying these women are often approaching top guys and in that case rejection is more likely since they often have too many women to juggle.

[–]diffdedbedGreen Eyed Devil2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Every woman who approached me when I was single was below my league.

[–]ppdthrowawaiRed Pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Aside from the fact that approaching a stranger requires a certain set of social skills that women are often lacking, the actual reason is simply that the type of woman that feels the need to approach is typically less attractive. Most women who are somewhat attractive don't need to do this ever as there is already an abundance of suitors.

The initiator tends to go for the upper boundaries of what they believe is attainable for them. Assuming they are somewhat close in SMV, if the man is being approached, it is often that the initiator is on the lower boundaries of what he finds acceptable. What women don't realize is as the initiator you're likely not on their radar physically and need to make up for that in personality to keep them interested. Yeah, it's not easy and will typically result in failure.

[–]H8CourtshipALot2170 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

that's why if they made it part of the education curriculum in the future, improving your conversation-ability, it should be mandatory for men but optional for women

[–]Robert_de_Saint_Loup0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hats off, ladies and gentlemen, a genius post!!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Getting rejected is hard. Thats why women dont want to do it. Men only do it because we have to, because we're thirstier... it's not like men get a great reception or have a wonderful experience every time we approach women lol that's not how life works.

[–]H8CourtshipALot2170 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

that's why it bothers me when people call it a skillset, because it reminds me, I don't see what type of skills or see how women need to learn any behaviors or types of social-skill sets when they don't have to open their mouth first in front of a guy, don't have to escalate anything on their part.

[–]piratelostboi-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I havent read all the replies but honestly this thread needs to get nuked with incels dropping the blackpill.

Other than lookism the reason women dont approach is simple: they dont want to be labeled as sluts. Any level of agression that a female shows is gonna be labled as slutty and greedy and likely to result in a woman getting her throat slit likevthat 4chan girl yesterday. A female approaching completely undermines male dominance and power and that's why men hate it so much.

[–]WhiteningMcClean[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol men do not hate it. I don’t know you but you sound like a militant feminist who isn’t actually friends with any straight men. Guys do not care about the power and dominance that comes with initiating. Most guys just want to meet nice cute girls however they can.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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