TheRedArchive

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For me a woman you have sex with and maintain an actual friendship would be a fantastic thing, maybe even better than sliced bread. If I don't have sex with friends it's not because they are friends, but because they are males. It's like women only sleep with their enemies or that denying sex to a man is a definitive trait of the friendship.

Is there anything else besides camouflaging "beta" as a "friend"?


[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged39 points40 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

It means

  • 'I don't want to have sex with you.'

Sometimes

  • I'm indifferent to sex, but someones going to catch feels and I'd prefer the friendship remain as it is.

It's like women only sleep with their enemies or that denying sex to a man is a definitive trait of the friendship.

If she wants to have sex with a friend, I doubt the friendship is going to get in the way. Edit; They may want a relationship rather than just FWB tho

[–]N0blesse0blige7 points8 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

If she wants to have sex with a friend, I doubt the friendship is going to get in the way.

Yes, somehow women are well aware that the friendship won’t be "ruined" for the man in the overwhelming majority of the cases.

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, somehow women are well aware that the friendship won’t be "ruined" for the man in the overwhelming majority of the cases.

You mean because he's quite ok to detonate the friendship for the chance to get his dick in?

Then it was never a friendship from his end. He was just waiting and watching.

[–]N0blesse0blige2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

detonate

There’s nothing to detonate. At best it’s a fart that fizzles out. A man has nothing to lose making a move on his female friends. Multiple women here have demonstrated just how lowly they think about male friends. "Stay away" (implying low status, someone who is not to be an annoyance or take up space). Another woman here talked about how her friend was ok to hang out with but how his genes needed to be "culled from the genepool". Wow, some friend.

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

A man has nothing to lose making a move on his female friends. Multiple women here have demonstrated just how lowly they think about male friends.

I don't believe that women here have commonly said they think lowly of their male friends. You must be pointing to very specific examples.

I hold mine in the same esteem I hold my female friends. A friend is a friend. Men are great. Why wouldn't I want to be friends with a great guy who wants to be friends with me? There are lots of males and females in my social groups and I treasure all of them.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A friend is a friend.

No, men and women are different. I have true platonic friendships with other men, because there is mutual lack of sexual interest. No-one is either accepting or rejecting, thus there is a symmetry and equality in the relationship that you won’t commonly find between men and women. You can be friends with heterosexual, single men but it is highly unlikely to be platonic, and it is quite naive to think otherwise.

Men are great.

Do you consider your male friends real men, though. Do you acknowledge them as sexual beings? And those that you do consider real men, is sex really off the table?

Why wouldn't I want to be friends with a great guy who wants to be friends with me?

Can you handle the fact that he likely wants to fuck you? Then sure.

There are lots of males

They’re "males" (in noun form) now? You are friends with non-adult boys too?

and females in my social groups and I treasure all of them.

If you truly treasure your male friends then you will not lose your shit if they make a move on you, and it should not be out of the question to introduce them to your female friends if they’re single. If they’re in some kind of sexual quarantine with regards to your female friends then I call bullshit.

I can only speak for myself, but I consider myself a sexual being, and I don’t particularly care to hide my sexuality to appease "female friends" I find attractive. There’s also shit some women pull that I will have none of if it relates to me personally.

[–]Daffan1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I love this comment. Buffet for me, scraps for thee

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you replying to the right comment, though? I write about the buffet elsewhere.

[–]Daffan0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nope, I didn't read any further in the thread lol this was top comment thread.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So, you indeed meant to reply to my buffet comment, or?

[–]Daffan1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You wrong in the head boy?

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Are you replying to the right comment, though?

Nope

Don’t call me boy.

[–]pngmafia97my type is chadcucks1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This!

The only times I've used "sex would ruin our friendship" was if I had to let someone down easy. I have fucked many of my friends, either to become a relationship, or purely because we wanted to fuck. Wariness about the consequences on our friendship was never a consideration.

I haven't used it in years though. Better to just be straight up.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have fucked many of my friends, either to become a relationship, or purely because we wanted to fuck. Wariness about the consequences on our friendship was never a consideration.

Straight from the horse’s mouth.

I haven't used it in years though. Better to just be straight up.

And she grew up and became an adult too. A role model for other women.

[–]pngmafia97my type is chadcucks1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

while the consequences on our 1:1 personal relationship was never a consideration for sex if i wanted it, i should add 2 major caveats.

Case 1: friendships don’t always exist in a vacuum. If i’ve already fucked some of their friends, I’m wary about becoming the town whore - fortunately most of my friends didn’t kiss and tell.

Case 2: unrequited feelings on their side. I’ll take intentional measures like prefacing the act as only sex and/or being excessively blasé after the fact. i believe men take this tactic too.

My POV should be taken as an exception, not the standard. Sex symbolizes a whole lot more than a mere physical act for the vast majority of women.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Case 1: friendships don’t always exist in a vacuum.

Agree, actually. I think men should have social female friends as it serves them. But they shouldn’t hang around women who provide no positive value to them getting laid (indirectly, with other women) unless they’re willing masochists or something.

If i’ve already fucked some of their friends, I’m wary about becoming the town whore - fortunately most of my friends didn’t kiss and tell.

Yes, men who can’t provide something basic as discression have only themselves to thank.

Case 2: unrequited feelings on their side.

Some men are both thirsty and hungry, yes.

I’ll take intentional measures like prefacing the act as only sex and/or being excessively blasé after the fact.

No quarrel here. Let’s fuck.

i believe men take this tactic too.

It can absolutely be arranged, although I find myself preferring hanging out too if the girl is nice, interesting, cool, etc. and an actual good friend.

[–]OHG10 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This 100x. She just isnt into you if she doesnt want it lol

[–]MGTOWKapow0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

More like "I've got this awesome situation where you give me all the benefits of a boyfriend without me having to put out. Don't ruin this for me."

[–]nemma8831/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh? Is that why guys don't sleep with their male friends too?

[–]eliechallita18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If anyone tells you that "sex would ruin the friendship", it means one of two things:

  • You two are actually good friends but they aren't attracted to you physically, and they don't want one-sided attraction and the resentment it might generate to ruin what you do have once they reject you
  • You two aren't even good friends, but they're trying to reject you politely.

That's about it. I don't think there's any ulterior or sinister motive in it.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat60 points61 points  (113 children) | Copy Link

I've had sex with a friend and it's worked out beautifully, but "sex would ruin our friendship" means, to me "I'd catch feels, and I don't want to because you don't want a LTR with me/ we'd make a bad couple."

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo20 points21 points  (74 children) | Copy Link

I really wish 100% of men would be able to hear that without taking it as an insult. But a tiny minority have to ruin it for the rest of us.

[–]N0blesse0blige15 points16 points  (68 children) | Copy Link

Because 99 % of the time it means, rather or also:

I’m already fucking other more attractive men than you even though they don’t invest in me emotionally.

Good thing I already have you to provide that emotional investment in their place, for free.

This is the big one. Therefore I highlighted it.

I’m not attracted to you sexually at all.

I don’t consider you a sexual being.

I don’t think your genes should propagate (emotionally speaking).

Being friends with an attractive woman is like being invited to a buffet without permission to eat.

Then you notice there are other men stopping by the buffet to grab some tasty fresh food, never mind table manners. Meanwhile you have developed these crazy OCD level table manners but are still denied even scraps.

Now imagine these men being well-fed. While you are malnourished and starving.

Hahaha, count me out.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo10 points11 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Your attitude towards attractive friends perplexes me. Do you think a man giving emotional investment means he deserves to have sex with a woman? You don't have to have sex with someone to enjoy a happy and mutually beneficial relationship.

I would never let my fear of missing out on a relationship ruin the friendship I already have.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Then how do friendships ever evolve into marriage? Maybe this is part of why so many marriages fail.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Nearly all the marriages in my hometown of 300 people evolved out of friendships, where there is no online dating and barely any social media and you have to date through your social circle. My theory is that most people consider their friends last after all other options have been exhausted.

Still though, these marriages between friends still more or less have a 50% chance of failing.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

My theory is that most people consider their friends last after all other options have been exhausted.

Marrying their friends only after having exhausted all other options?

Still though, these marriages between friends still more or less have a 50% chance of failing.

Yeah, because they see their friends as an inferior option.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

It's just a theory. I think there's some study out there that says almost all of us meet our future spouse by the time we turn 18, it just takes most of us a longer time to settle for them. And settling has a 50% chance of failure, perhaps higher. I could be wrong about all of these things, these are just musings.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn't place great faith in that study. I met my wife in my early 30s. Never met her until that time. We lived opposite sides of the country right up until she came here a year before. I didn't settle with her - I had strict standards with regards to beliefs and moral character and she scored 100 percent. Didn't give a rip about looks. Four kids later I think I did a good thing. Time will tell.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Glad to hear things worked out great for you. I'm especially glad to see your emphasis on good character. I share your confidence that you made the right choice and your relationship will stand the test of time.

[–]Papi_Knight1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Girls like having other girl friends because we can listen to each other, give advice and hype each other up. While guys tell other guys that the other person sucks ass. For girls to ask guys to listen to them that means hey want advice from them or just feel comfortable enough to talk to them. Also a bad idea to talk to guys about this unless they themselves are not interested in y'all.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

While guys tell other guys that the other person sucks ass.

I think it's more to do with the company I keep, but my male friends consistently stress personal responsibility. On the rare occasions that I have complaints about someone, my female friends will have complaints about them too, but my male friends will ask me what I'm doing about it. Have I confronted them, do I keep up my end of the bargain, and so on.

[–]N0blesse0blige2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Do you think a man giving emotional investment means he deserves to have sex with a woman?

No. Where have I even implied that? I think women are not entitled to men’s emotional investment (just as men are certainly not entitled to sex). Especially not if sex is off the table, since heterosexual men’s emotions – and thus emotional investment – towards attractive women is inherently sexual. I think the claim to platonic friendship is often disingenious, and that women often know it. True platonic friendship is defined by a mutual lack of sexual interest, which is very rare between single heterosexual men and women they find sexually attractive.

I encourage women (as a thought experiment) to ask their "male friends" if they would fuck them right here and now if they had the chance. 99 % of these men will answer yes, at least if negative consequences are ruled out, and a chance of actually having sex is implied. If you’re personally one of the one percenters then good for you.

You don't have to have sex with someone to enjoy a happy and mutually beneficial relationship.

Not the case for sexually seeking men and women they find sexually attracive, I think. Which covers the vast majority of male-female one-on-one friendships. Social friendships as part of a larger social circle is different of course. I don’t think it’s unwise for men to have female friends, but that it’s reasonable to judge those friendships on different merits than true platonic frienships. It’s complex. There’s a certain type of men who disproportionately end up as "male friends" in very personal and intimate one on one relationships with women.

[–]Muse_asvhedu1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’ve had several friends express sexual interest in me. And ... that was it. Cool. I’m still friends with them. Nothing got romantic. They don’t have any desire to put our friendship aside in favor of some fleeting sexual interest (especially since they all know that I don’t really do LTRs) because they see me as a person, not a sex toy.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’ve had several friends express sexual interest in me. And ... that was it. Cool.

Sure, it’s cool, as long as you’re comfortable with them still wanting to fuck you. If you think your male friends are now vaccinated against horniness and sexual interest in you, you are wrong.

I’m still friends with them. Nothing got romantic.

Until one of them drops a bomb on you about liking you for years, or they try their luck getting in your pants some time when they’re drunk. They still want to fuck you, too, btw.

They don’t have any desire to put our friendship aside in favor of some fleeting sexual interest (especially since they all know that I don’t really do LTRs)

Then ask them each casually one on one if they’d like to fuck you some time. Right, now revise your position. Sex is very unproblematic to men and almost always feels right. They don’t fear putting your friendship "aside". That’s your projection, or them parroting you for good boy points.

because they see me as a person, not a sex toy.

To a man you can be both. Men generally view sex very differently than you. It is a universally fitting and welcome ingredient to most men. Like a natural, universal anti-depressant. Unless for example they’re very religiously repressed, or have suffered sexual trauma.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No. Where have I even implied that?

I was asking because I had no idea, not because it was implied. I was extrapolating from a personal starting point, not from what you said.

If you’re personally one of the one percenters then good for you.

I definitely am.

There’s a certain type of men who disproportionately end up as "male friends" in very personal and intimate one on one relationships with women.

This has been the case for me three times now. I guess you have me pegged.

[–]OfSpock8 points9 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

You can have friends who you would never date because putting up with some things for a few hours is easy, living with it continually would drive you insane.

[–]N0blesse0blige4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

living with it continually would drive you insane.

You mean like not being able to fuck a hot, otherwise sexually active woman you hang out with regularly?

[–]OfSpock8 points9 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Since men allegedly like 50% of women, you'd think they'd get used to this.

Being late on the other hand... Sure, invite Paul, we'll all get there at the right time, he'll turn up late with a funny story and no one cares as long as we don't have to wait on him. I'd have to kill him within two days if I actually lived with him.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Why don’t you text Paul and ask him if he can come over to fuck you? See if he’s late then.

[–]OfSpock4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

And then what? "I knew you could be on time if you put in some effort." and slam the door in his face? These people are fine as friends as long as you don't let your plans revolve around them but they need to be culled from the gene pool.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I see what you’re getting into here. Paul’s fine. He’s more intelligent and creative than you will ever be, with your office middle-management eugenics.

These people are fine as friends as long as you don't let your plans revolve around them but they need to be culled from the gene pool.

Yeah, sounds like you’re offering a really genuine and wholesome friendship.

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

If you have a significant flaw, you have to make up for it in other ways.

But just for the record, in an effort to pick an easy flaw for my person which wouldn't derail the conversation, I used my aunt Pauline, whose never been on time to anything (except work) in her entire life but is sweet charming and funny, so everyone invites her anyway. She's a nurse, so very caring, but not particularly intelligent or creative as such.

[–]Freethetreees10 points11 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

You’re correct in your observations but incorrect in your emotional conclusion.

You weren’t invited to the buffet in the first place, homeboy. Friends freely give and take emotional investment, that’s what friendship is. The average male needs to realize their individual genetic worth is a lot less than they think, most men are meant to eat from the trash outside the buffet. But orbiters will continue to orbit the buffet of women out of their league and then get angry about nature taking its course lol

[–]N0blesse0blige2 points3 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

You’re correct in your observations but incorrect in your emotional conclusion.

What ought to be can’t be logically deduced from what is in the first place. Sit down peasant, and listen.

You weren’t invited to the buffet in the first place, homeboy.

Who me? Why are you making the "you" in the example personal? The only personal reference I made was "count me out", denoting that I’m not the "you" in the example.

Friends freely give and take emotional investment, that’s what friendship is.

Heterosexual men’s emotions towards attractive women are generally always sexualized. They are not platonic no matter what.

The average male needs to realize their individual genetic worth is a lot less than they think,

Yet the majority of men together hold the power in any given society where they manage to organize to seize it. Surely you aren’t opposed to such an outcome with your moral appeals to nature?

most men are meant to eat from the trash outside the buffet. But orbiters will continue to orbit the buffet of women out of their league and then get angry about

nature taking its course lol

Yet I bet you support all kinds of welfare arrangements for women. Nature defined as broadly or narrowly as you please, for the occasion. Let "nature take its course" in the most prosperous and morally developed manner then: Let’s have a libertarian minimal government society with both sexual freedom and economic freedom to match it.

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries5 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Heterosexual men’s emotions towards attractive women are generally always sexualized. They are not platonic no matter what.

In that case, men should never pretend and be friends with women. Just stay away.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

And here comes the truth between the lines: You look down on these male friends, if they can’t fall in line and hide their true natures (of which you are already probably well aware in the first place) then "stay away".

Grow up and realize that sexless relationships with hold no tangible and wholesome benefits for men. It’s just an arrangement where you keep men in line by shaming them for expressing themselves in a sexualized manner.

[–]Freethetreees2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Grow up and realize women are people

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

...that’s not the contested issue, but rather what you consider men to be. Especially low-value men.

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You look down on these male friends, if they can’t fall in line and hide their true natures (of which you are already probably well aware in the first place) then "stay away".

So, a man's 'true nature' is all about sex? No, I am not aware of that. Is that the only reason they laugh at my jokes? If so, they are really good actors.

Grow up and realize that sexless relationships with hold no tangible and wholesome benefits for men. It’s just an arrangement where you keep men in line by shaming them for expressing themselves in a sexualized manner.

Men have a choice - they don't have to be friends with women. At all.

Then they can just approach women in bars and nightclubs with offers for sex and either get accepted or rejected. They can 'express their sexualized selves' without holding back.

Does that sound better?

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So, a man's 'true nature' is all about sex?

Depends on how you view it. Sex is an important part of who we are as humans. Consideration of sexuality is needed to recognize a person in full. For men it is also very visual, very present, and presents itself as an urge that varies in its intensity, not unlike thirst or hunger. It is not really reactive, it is active, pro-active, but it increases with subtle and not so subtle stimuli. Men learn to practice self-control to keep it in check at an early age, and become very proficient at it. This is neither about women having anything to fear from most normally developed men. But the urge does not disappear.

Men can be friends with attractive women, but it won’t be platonic. It will be something else. Men relate to and care for women (who are not relatives) in a sexual manner – their emotional investment is sexualized.

It is not "all about sex", but sex is connected with most everything men do towards attractive women. Thus men are generally more comfortable and open around women who recognize them sexually on some level.

If you can handle that this, then sure, it’s not a problem to have male friends, but is quite different from same-sex friendships. Perhaps especially for men. By contrast male same-sex friendships are characterized by a distinct lack of mutual sexual interest. Thus they are symmetrical, equal if you will, and truly platonic, in a way male-female heterosexual friendships are not.

No, I am not aware of that. Is that the only reason they laugh at my jokes? If so, they are really good actors.

Well, they laugh at your jokes if you are funny, or to be polite, and not uncommonly to establish sexualized rapport, depending on the circumstances.

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for your explanation.

Women are as visual and sexual as men, but not as thirsty, because things are different for us. We also learn to practice self-control at any early age - to a far, far greater degree than men do.

But if you are right and men want to have sex with all their female friends, aren't they better off not having female friends? Why do men persist in seeking these friendships? It's not a pathway to sex - any idiot knows that. So, why do it?

[–]Papi_Knight0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a lot easier to just flat out tell them they don't want to hear us yap about our feelings and shit because they're interested in us sexually and emotionally.

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Nah I like things just the way they are. Freedom for everyone and safety nets for everyone. The genetically worthless males can cry about it while paying taxes on their sex dolls. Natural sexual selection is good for the species.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

safety nets for everyone

There is no safety net for men in the sexual market. It is in fact heavily subsidised in favor for women – for the next 18 years as a single mother. Women not only have complete sexual freedom, they now have freedom from consequences. You are in reality advocating for soft powered female supremacist welfare society, with generous welfare for women (and only to a lesser extent men) and some kind of lazy, half-baked social Darwinism exclusively for men, all at the net expense of tax paying men. You have no moral highground.

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

There’s no sexual safety net for anyone. I’m talking about safety nets for actual NEEDS like food, housing, and healthcare.

I don’t want to repress half the population to get my dick wet, I have the entire high ground.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

There’s no sexual safety net for anyone. I’m talking about safety nets for actual NEEDS like food, housing, and healthcare.

Sex is commonly placed at the bottom of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs along with food, shelter, basic care, etc.

*EDIT: The important thing is consistency here. My point is the state actively undermines men’s chances in the sexual marketplace by having to compete with their own tax money for the provider role in women’s lives (!!) You need realize that tax money come from the work of living people, mostly men. They are the ones that deserve to be those providers, not the government, which has hardly done an honest day’s work ever. There may be no need to provide welfare for sexual needs, but at least don’t undermine some people’s personal ability to fulfill their sexual needs. *

my dick wet

I thought you were a woman. I mean, you sure sound like you have a vagina.

I don’t want to repress half the population

Then why do you support the current paradigm, where women have privileged access to child custody, men are forced to pay child support for children they may have no legal right to custody of, to raise and spend time with? Why do you support women’s subsidised irresponsible sexual behavior, where they can fuck men way above their league, and have the tax payer pay for the resulting offspring for 18 years? Why do you (presumably) support sperm donation for women but no egg donation for men?

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Sex is not a need. The current paradigm is good for the gene pool, women are not being “sexually irresponsible”, they’re actually finally being responsible by selecting for Chad genes instead of being forced to settle for beta genes by the patriarchy. Women pay into taxes, they deserve the freedom to fuck the men who they want who also want to fuck them.

I don’t support keeping good willing fathers away from their children, and I absolutely support egg donation and womb surrogates for men, especially gay male couples.

[–]gnat6 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy Link

You weren’t invited to the buffet in the first place, homeboy

Plenty of attractive women offer up the possibility of a bite to keep guys around. They're well aware of what they are doing but will of course deny it. Plenty of women are also not doing that. From a guy's point of view its not easy to tell the difference a lot of the time.

Either way its just a bad idea for an average guy to be friends with an attractive women. You can be friends with anyone. Why choose all the problems that come with being an attractive woman's friend.

[–]chaddad90005 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I just like being around attractive women. I guess I'm able to find someone attractive without necessarily being overly attracted to them. Part of this is having multiple irons in the fire, aka "abundance".

[–]N0blesse0blige2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I guess I'm able to find someone

...

attractive without necessarily being overly attracted to them.

What?

Part of this is having multiple irons in the fire, aka "abundance".

The saying goes plenty of fish in the sea. Not whales.

[–]chaddad90003 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Most women you meet are not going to want to touch your penis, so if you don't figure out how to compartmentalize you will have social issues.

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

compartmentalize

I don’t have to rationalize, dissociate or compartmentalize simple facts. I don’t find reality traumatic.

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Boldface and angry tone says otherwise, but I'll take your word for it bud.

[–]trail220 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If the only thing of value at the buffet is sex, then yeah. But if there are other things at the buffet that mean its is worthwhile to hang out for a little, then why not.

Its the rare for an attractive women to have much of value as a friend.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If the only thing of value at the buffet is sex, then yeah.

There are lots of other things of value at the buffet. Socializing, meeting, greeting. Fun games, and pastimes. But they all start losing appeal, since you are not allowed to eat and drink. Not even one bit.

Its the rare for an attractive women to have much of value as a friend.

This is the thing. Women also inherently view relationships with men in a sexualized manner. But when it is sexualized in terms of their own sexual rejection of the man, they mistake it for a platonic relationship. Attrractive women will tend to reject men they find unattractive more strongly, so the contrast with a platonic relationship becomes even starker.

[–]trail221 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Honestly I think its mostly we would make a bad couple. And what that really means is you are way more interested in me then I am in you.

So yeah I trust you enough to have sex with, but I know it would not be casual with you.

Which basically boils down to I am not interested in dating you . Which sucks under normal conditions but especially sucks because your personality which I know is not attractive enough to me to defray your physical attractiveness or is unattractive in general.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

BTW, what kind of man who isn’t a medieval monk is "chaste"?

That’s like posting vacation pictures from virtual reality. Get real man.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you mixing up chastity and celibacy? Monks take a vow of celibacy never to have sex or masturbate because they want to devote their entire lives to God. Anybody who wants to wait until marriage to have sex defines chastity in whatever flavor works for them because they want a marriage that is wholly devoted to one person.

My chastity is first and foremost because I will do anything for a strong pair bond, second because I am deeply sentimental and know I couldn't tear myself away from someone after sex, third because I'm simply curious to find out the end result, and fourth because it strengthens my relationship with God during my youth.

[–]N0blesse0blige2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

First of all, I respect your goals, especially:

I will do anything for a strong pair bond

You might find that women commonly prefer sexually experienced men, though. They are often attracted to men who can get with other women. Your chastity may also contrast poorly with the general lack of chastity among modern women, depending on how you go about it. I dare suggest chastity is primarily a female virtue, and only secondarily a male virtue.

Choice of words:

Although the dictionary definition of chastity does mention refraining from extramarital sex, it especially emphasizes total abstinence from sex, exemplified as part of a vow.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You might find that women commonly prefer sexually experienced men, though.

This is what I'm struggling with now. When I was younger, women respected my chastity. In the past 5 years or so (I'm 28 now), most women show visible revulsion.

Your chastity may also contrast poorly with the general lack of chastity among modern women

I don't expect any partners to have been chaste themselves. My chastity is mostly personal, and I don't hold others to personally held standards.

Although the dictionary definition of chastity does mention refraining from extramarital sex, it especially emphasizes total abstinence from sex, exemplified as part of a vow.

Ultimately, there are so many different definitions and applications of chastity that you can't really know what it means to any particular person without asking them.

I'm very glad you kept an open mind, and I feel very understood based off your responses. Maintain your good character.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"I'd catch feels, and I don't want to because you don't want a LTR with me/ we'd make a bad couple."

yes, but when women say it, the vast majority of the time, they're worried that the guy will catch feelings for her and won't be able to go back to just being platonic friends with her afterwards.

if the male friend is the very chill type of guy who has an abundance of options and can have casual sex without catching feelings, women are a lot more open to being friends with benefits with him. she knows that if she has sex with a guy like that he isn't going to automatically assume that they're a serious exclusive romantic couple (like most of her beta orbiter male friends would) and that if she decides to stop having sex with him in the future, he won't get all upset and butthurt about it (like most of her beta orbiter friends would).

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here23 points24 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

I find the two competing narratives interesting: "sex is no big deal," and "sex is such a big deal that it ruins friendships."

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat53 points54 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Different people believe and feel different things. News at 11.

[–]Sprach_McGrachan23 points24 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Lots of people who post to PPD do not understand that other people believe and feel different things. The people who do not understand that other people believe and feel different things is how we get posts like this:

For me a woman you have sex with and maintain an actual friendship would be a fantastic thing, maybe even better than sliced bread. If I don't have sex with friends it's not because they are friends, but because they are males. It's like women only sleep with their enemies or that denying sex to a man is a definitive trait of the friendship.

And then, later on, the OP asks this:

how can you make a bad couple if you are already compatible?

[–]blackchucktays7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lots of people who post to PPD do not understand that other people believe and feel different things.

One of the primary reasons these subreddits even exist.

[–]aliennyt 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

It's like women only sleep with their enemies or that denying sex to a man is a definitive trait of the friendship.

Or the above part of OP's comment which is seriously disturbing. Is the only reason to be friends with someone to fuck them?

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That does not follow logically from his quoted statements.

[–]Sprach_McGrachan0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Found the alt account.

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure.

[–]Sprach_McGrachan0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I know, I know, the OP is not an autistic but rather rare species of super-genius who is playing next-level three dimensional philosophical chess. And the only way anyone can understand the OP is through reading James Joyce's Ulysses.

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Is this sarcasm? Could you spell out your point? Let’s say I’m autistic for example.

[–]Papi_Knight0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just cause y'all compatible doesn't mean it'll make you a great couple. People have different interest and view as well as attractions.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's a different animal when it's making truth claims about other people though.

"Sex would ruin our friendship," is different than "sex ruins friendships."

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But nobody here said "sex ruins friendships"?

[–]Talkytalktalk4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

so much of "purple pill" is just trying to change the subject.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't catch feels easily, but a lot of the guys I hooked up with did. I've had friendships with guys end because they got a crush on me and I wasn't interested in them. I certainly wasn't going to have sex with them because that'd lead them on even more.

I was never worried about me having feelings for them, I was worried about them having feelings for me that I knew I'd never reciprocate.

[–]TheReformist945 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think women are more cut out for casual sex than men. The amount of stories of men catching feelings in Fwb and casual situations. You basically compartmentalise or desensitise yourself after s few casual fuck partners

[–]decoy88Black Male in London1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’ve seen this happen a bunch of times with a hot friend of mine.

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower20 points21 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex CAN be no big deal with someone that you're reasonably sure you're not going to fall in love with.

If you're FWBing and one of you "catches feelings" and the other one doesn't, that's almost certain to explode the whole shebang.

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I find the two competing narratives interesting: "sex is no big deal," and "sex is such a big deal that it ruins friendships."

Sex is no big deal if you're not going to see the person again, or just for a few weeks over a summer break.

It's a huge deal if you're going to have a relationship with a person - either friendship or romantic. Because then, sex can be all wrapped up in emotions and life directions and many other things.

[–]ALFOND5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What it really means: I DON'T LIKE YOU PHYSICALLY !

[–]Stahlboden[S] 0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

how can you make a bad couple if you are already compatible?

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat30 points31 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

There's lots of people I'm compatible with as friends but wouldn't be in an exclusive relationship--say they're a little flaky, and sometimes fall off the map for a few weeks. If they're my friend and I know they do this, okay, whatever. If they're my boyfriend, I'm clawing at the walls. Or say One of us doesn't care about cleaning and the other is a neat freak. Sleepovers get awfully unpleasant real fast. Or a million other things.

[–]WhiteningMcClean13 points14 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yup. I’d never date my best friend and it has nothing to do with getting along or how attractive she is.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

how attractive she is.

Right, Megan Fox and Jennifer Lawrence suggested a threesome again last week. Had to sit down for the nth time and explain to them that no matter how attractive they are or how well we’re getting along they’re not stealing away my xbox time. That’s my me time.

Notice how that story would have been significantly more crazy if the last sentence ended with "... no matter how attractive they are or how well we’re getting along it doesn’t change the fact that we’re just friends."?

[–]WhiteningMcClean1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say I'd never sleep with her. I probably wouldn't, but even if I would, it still says nothing about our compatibility as lovers.

We get along marvelously, but she isn't my type. She's too volatile and too impulsive. I would have a hard time building up the trust in her required for a relationship.

[–]N0blesse0blige 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not answering downvoters, or responses to my downvoted comments (as I please).

[–]WhiteningMcClean 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

I didn't downvote you...

[–]littleprincesrose8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah absolutely. Also, there are different standards for friends and for a potential significant other. I dont care how many times a week my friends get blackout drunk, or how much stupid/impulsive decisions they make, but I’d be more upset if my significant other lead a life some of them do. I have guy friends whose relationship History would make me unable to trust them romantically, even if I was attracted to them. There are friends who are fun to hang out with time to time, or catch up regularly- but we couldn’t tolerate each others lifestyle, habits etc in a closer relationship. There is really many reasons why a friendship couldn’t grow into a functioning relationship.

[–]IHeartDay916 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The compatibility criteria for friendships and relationships are different.

[–]meomeowmeoww 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

How can friends make shitty room mates if youre friends?

[–]my-little-wonton1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are people in friends with who I would absolutely hate to be in a relationship with. It's one thing to get along with them, it's another thing to live with them

[–]LifterofThingsDelicate Feminine Flower13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Either he's a nice person but gross and you don't want to fuck him, or you like his company and don't want to risk complicating shit with romantic feelings.

[–]neualgae 1 points [recovered]  (18 children) | Copy Link

You mean for an FWB? Because it might get messy and change/ruin the friendship. Maybe he'll catch feelings, maybe you'll catch feelings even if you consciously realize he's not someone you want to date, maybe he'll get weirdly sexually jealous of your future boyfriend, maybe your future boyfriend won't feel comfortable if you remain friends with your old FWB, whatever. Sex is cheap as a woman, why risk a good friendship when you can get it elsewhere?

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

Maybe he'll catch feelings

Just as likely he’ll do that if you hang out one on one and don’t have sex. Men fall in love when they invest emotionally.

maybe you'll catch feelings even if you consciously realize he's not someone you want to date,

Yes, women become more vulnerable and may fall more easily in love after sex.

maybe he'll get weirdly sexually jealous of your future boyfriend,

Likely he’ll do that either way.

maybe your future boyfriend won't feel comfortable if you remain friends with your old FWB, whatever.

He will definetly see a man who hasn’t been able to fuck you as more harmless.

Sex is cheap as a woman, why risk a good friendship when you can get it elsewhere?

How highly do you really think of him if you’d rather fuck a stranger even though you have an emotional connection with him?

[–]neualgae 1 points [recovered]  (16 children) | Copy Link

Idk I feel like most of this answer is coming from the assumption that the guy is a thirsty orbiter type and doesn't care about the friendship otherwise. Guessing either that applies to you now, or did in the past and now you avoid having female friends?

How highly do you really think of him if you’d rather fuck a stranger even though you have an emotional connection with him?

It's basically like, not wanting to start a business with a family member. It often has nothing to do with your respect/like for them as a person, and is more about the risk assessment of "well, what happens to our relationship if things don't work out or we have professional disagreements?".

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Idk I feel like most of this answer is coming from the assumption that the guy is a thirsty orbiter type and doesn't care about the friendship otherwise.

Guessing either that applies to you now, or did in the past and now you avoid having female friends?

I’ve noticed a pattern that the more sexually interested a girl is, the more she respects you. I feel much more loved, adored, appreciated and respected by women that I can fuck, than those that I don’t get to fuck. An undesired man is sort of a low-status secondary citizen. I think rarely women truly respect their male friends. Many of the women here who defend their male friendships slip up and reveal how much they look down on these male friends. Especially their disregard for how their male friends may feel. The male friend is the male equivalent to a plate really.

Maybe some girls who were instilled with more masculine morals like loyalty, mutual respect and emphasis on strong friendship by their father are more like real platonic friends. But those girls can be just as attractive, and I may want to fuck them too.

I have a very good female friend right now, but I can fuck her anytime I want. I really like her, she’s so sweet and nice. I care for her genuinely. I’m not only interested in having sex with her. We hang out and do all kinds of stuff, but these activities are augmented by the sex. I’d upgrade her to full girlfriend if I was more attracted to her. If I couldn’t fuck her it would probably feel unwholesome, frustrating and annoying, but I mean she’s good company. If, on the other hand, I never got the chance to fuck her in the first place, I would not hang out with her outside social gatherings. There’s no way I’m spending extended time on a personal 1:1 level with women I can’t fuck. It would have to be collaboration, business- or networking related.

It's basically like, not wanting to start a business with a family member. It often has nothing to do with your respect/like for them as a person,

More like, "I’m fucking these guys here while you provide attention and emotional support, deal?"

No.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

“I’d upgrade her to full girlfriend if I was more attracted to her.“

Is she interested in this?

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Yes, that’s what she wants.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

So it’s okay to fuckzone a woman who is unattractive, but not okay to friendzone a man who is unattractive?

Men want sex, women want relationships. How much do you respect her feminine desire for a relationship?

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

  1. I’ve been 100 % honest and upfront with from the first day we met.

  2. I’m spending time with her. I give her lots of attention and emotional support. Just recently I listened thourougly about a difficult work situation she’s in and offered advice, understanding and support. We are for most intents and purposes in a relationship already with some exceptions. If we were in a relationship, status would be that I was considering leaving, so there would be that hanging over her.

  3. I’ve suggested a means of self-improvement for her if she wants to take the relationship to the next level. Call it cynical perhaps, but it is in response to a far more cynical society.

  4. She has expressed concerns that she will lose me from her life if we stop seeing each other. I’ve assured that she won’t even if we stop having sex. She will not lose me.

Seriously, what woman has this level of concern for a man she’s rejecting? None, in my experience.

  1. Women hold the power here. It is women who have the choice between fucking men above their league in the SMP or sticking to their own league in the RMP. The logical conclusion of the former is single motherhood, while the latter is the only realistic option for most women in most cases to find a husband/commited relationship.

Do most men have any equivalent choice?

No. Most men have a choice between staying single and lowering their standards significantly even for a relationship.

Or self-improve (which I think actually is the main reason, after all, why RP is so big).

In fact, women can easily get a man above their league in the RMP too, just not the top men all the women are already wanting and fucking. It’s their market. You’d think they’d be happy and thriving. Instead they are caught up in their own unchecked instincts.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

If she’s really a good person, as you say she is, wouldn’t it be kinder to let her go now so that she can find a relationship she needs?

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, but how though? Should I reject her proposals about hanging out? I should at least stop contacting her, I guess.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Men typically get more possessive (among other things) when you've had sex with them. It changes the typically-not-that-close friendship because, in most cases, hetero sex seems to accompany, not universally but frequently enough to be a notable risk, a sense of 'ownership' between people who were previously on even footing with regards to their mutual standards of behavior; the guy will get weird about it if you sleep with someone else, but may expect you to be totally cool with it if he sleeps with someone else, for instance.

Why would you want to risk a pleasant relationship with someone for a maybe-but-not-guaranteed pleasant sexual interaction that carries the risk of establishing an unbalanced and decidedly unpleasant dynamic?

Honestly, I think in most of these cases, the man who wants to fuck is overestimating his relationship with the woman, tbh. A few pleasant interactions do not a close and loving foundation for a sexual relationship make, introducing additional layers of risk, applicable to both parties, but that men might be willing to overlook in pursuit of getting laid.

I say this as someone who would absolutely have sex with any of my close friends if they really wanted to have sex and I was not in a relationship at the time - I can identify with people who wouldn't, although these concerns don't govern my personal philosophy on the matter.

[–]furcryingoutloudRed Pill Man10 points11 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I disagree with only one thing. You attribute this to men, where this is a human tendency, not restricted to females or males.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm bisexual, and while I can only provide insight on hetero men/gay women, there is a pronounced difference. I've had sex with several of my (lesbian/bi) female friends and have not encountered the situations that I speculate on here based on relationships with hetero men.

[–]furcryingoutloudRed Pill Man7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh I wouldn't argue that. I am a hetero male and have found that many women I've had sex with seem to move into the ownership stage, like, minutes after sex.

Obviously, neither one of us can judge this exclusively from our own experience and claim to be correct. My experience is with women attempting to take ownership roles. Joining both our experiences is what would bring me to the conclusion that it's a human trait.

[–]FlyingResearcher1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women definitely get possessive of men.

I can't speak for all men, but I've noticed that women are usually far more possessive of me than I am the other way around, often to the point of jealousy and hysteria.

Hell, a friend of mine used to have a joint Facebook account with his wife because she didn't want him doing anything or talking to anyone without her knowing about it first.

[–]furcryingoutloudRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Aaaand we're back to the round robin. Both sexes are just as possessive. I would not venture to say women or men own the market on that. From my experience, I've seen a fair share of each.

[–]SadDoggo451 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am not sure you are on point, I have some different experiences.

I would say it is more that the woman just isn't turned on by you. That may be due physical attractiveness, self confidence or lack of sexual energy. I know few men who know how to create that sexual tension, and occasionally fuck their female friends.

I am, on the other hand, polar opposite. As for "overestimating the relationship" - with one girl I have 35 000 whatsapp messages over the span of 5 months, and we saw each other (in group or individually) on average twice per week. I mean she invited me on an trip to Europe, just the two of us.

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I wonder what the lesbian and bisexual women here think.

[–]FinchRosemtaActual Factual Ho6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't have sex with friends. I think that's on me though. The dynamic would change for me and I wouldn't be able to do casual. I'd start getting possessive. But that's a personal issue not one based on gender.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If only one would comment!

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think what we are curious about is whether or not your same sex friendships would be ruined by sex. At least, I'm curious about it.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It depends. Varies from person to person.

[–]Female_urinary_mazeWOMEN LIKE SEX.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've never fealt that way about one of my friends but I can understand it and I don't think it would be less possible with another woman. Either way the fear seems to be of getting into an emotionally charged situation that fundamentally changes how those two people interract with eachother, and that can happen with either gender. From my bi experience it seems like every conceivable relationship issue is possible with a man or with a woman.

[–]MattcwuJust sticking up for the oppressed and voiceless women0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's hot!

[–]Popgoesthesoda0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm bi (and off the market) but I definitely fall on the monogamous side of things, sex with someone I get on with would result in some level of attachment. Personally I would never have sex with someone who I don't see a relationship happening with because the next thing you know I'd be drinking and singing along with Disney songs at 3am alone except for my cat so.....

[–]Nobodykers10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Because if the male was attractive to her they wouldn't be friends

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is really it, or it would automatically be a FWB situation. In my experience, I know in about 5 minutes of meeting a woman to know what she’s looking for from me and it doesn’t change over time whatsoever. All of my gfs and current gf made their intentions quite known to me very quickly (without saying “let’s start dating!”). No woman has ever been interested in casual sex, and women usually are fine being friends. It’s like the subliminally tell you “this is the space of friendship, this is the space of men I want to fuck. You belong in the friendship space far away from the men I want to fuck”. Don’t hate them for it, just makes me wish I could be objectively hotter.

[–]andipandey36 points37 points  (74 children) | Copy Link

If I have a friend that I genuinely enjoy being around AND I find attractive enough to sleep with, then I’d want it to go to relationship territory — if he just wants sex without the emotion, then it would ruin the friendship. But for the vast majority of male friends (99%), I’m simply not sexually attracted to them, so I’d never go there. I think women say it will ruin the friendship in this case to soften the blow on the guy so it’s about their friendship being ruined by sex and not that she’s genuinely not attracted to him in any way.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (68 children) | Copy Link

I mean I think you should be honest with them and let them know you’re not attracted to them.

[–]andipandey27 points28 points  (54 children) | Copy Link

Why? We’re friends. I never agreed to put myself in a situation for anything beyond that. If a friend straight up asks me (I had one guy friend profess love), I will be honest that I’m not interested. But beyond that, no I don’t owe them an explanation to their hints. If they aren’t cool with just friendship then they don’t have to continue speaking to me

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (47 children) | Copy Link

And we shouldn’t lie to our friends. We should always be honest with them. Otherwise are we really friends? And yeah if they’re not cool with it, then by all means you two should cut ties and move on.

[–]andipandey16 points17 points  (40 children) | Copy Link

If a friend had a horrendous haircut that they couldn’t change would you tell them they look awful? Or would you say it’s not that bad and it will grow out. White lies to spare someone’s feelings happen all the time.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo7 points8 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

The overwhelming majority of men will prefer to hear the hard truth than the white lie. Obviously there are exceptions, so I'm sure you've had at least one negative experience giving the truth and never want to have that again. But the simple fact is that all the men you lied to live with an extended period of mental anguish until someone inevitably finally tells them the truth.

[–]andipandey15 points16 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I agree they deserve the truth IF they have real feelings for me — they deserve to be able to walk away because a friendship may be painful.

If they purely want to have sex with me (basically every guy friend realistically) and have no emotional attachment or feelings beyond friendship (aka they just wanna get their dick wet with a “hot” female friend) then no me saying I find them sexually repulsive will only hurt their feelings and ACTUALLY ruin a friendship. Instead there’s a way to close the door on it without having to insult them.

[–]oodsigma4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

"I'm not attracted to you" it's very different from "I find you sexually repulsive."

[–]Kujab3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Its the same for women I guess.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

If they purely want sex and have no emotional attachment, then they aren't truly a friend and there's nothing there to ruin. But honestly, whatever you may think, the only men who are like this are basically sociopaths and thus few and far between.

[–]andipandey6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I don’t mean they don’t care about me as a person. I just mean that they’re not emotionally attached romantically. Like they like me as a friend and are a real friend but want to bang with no attachment. Pretty much every guy friend I have would say yes if I told him we could sleep together. The majority of those have no romantic feelings for me beyond lust. But they’re good friends when you take sex out of the equation. These are the guys I’m referring to.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Like they like me as a friend and are a real friend but want to bang with no attachment.

I've been blind to this line of thinking for so long. This all suddenly makes so much more sense. Thanks for taking the time to spell it out.

[–]ashitanothrowaway1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I know I am this guy. I kind of went on a rampage through my female friends I found attractive and burnt bridges and fucked the others. Still friends with the ones I had sex with. The others, I keep at a distance, because guys who want sex tend to become superfriends and do the most.

I try to limit my energy where I can't put my dick. Yeah, it sounds harsh, but saves me heartache and headaches.

[–]MxCmrnPurple Pill Man1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That is a Schrodinger‘s cat. Based on the criteria you’re putting forth, there’s no way for you to know whether or not they’re actually friends until the event occurs, and you’ve made your decision. You wouldn’t know whether or not they deserve honesty until after the fact.

In my experience having been the guy in this situation. I believe honesty is the best policy, and has a higher chance of acceptance and continuing the friendship. But I also understand the consequences can be pretty risky when it comes to a dude freaking out. it’s an awkward situation with no real right answer.

[–]andipandey10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for acknowledging that there’s no right way. Yes in an ideal world we could all be 1000% truthful, but for many woman, we have HAD men freak out being truthful. I had a guy friend who was my best friend for 6 years kick me out at 3 am screaming that I’m a whore because he decided to make a move and I was truthful and told him i wasn’t interested in him. I love the guys I choose to be friends with; I just don’t want to sleep with them. And I don’t want to hurt their feelings either. So if it means padding the blow a bit then yeah, I guess I’m guilty of that.

But tbh most guys will never openly ask you for sex or say they have feelings. I think my guy friends know that I’m not interested in them based on how I act around them. But who knows?

I think the real big difference here is guys are friends with girls but still hope they can have sex with them — the ideal situation presented in OPs post. I’ve never become friends with a guy in hopes of sleeping with him. My guy friends are just as platonic to me as my female friends (in my eyes) and having sex with a guy friend is just not something I have any interest in ever.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂14 points15 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Men say that but I’ve found it to be bullshit time and time again. They say they can handle the truth but then they want to debate when they don’t like the answer. Or worse.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo-1 points0 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I don't blame you for having bad experiences. That still doesn't make immediate emotional responses the norm, or even wrong. I would argue that every rejection will bring a man down until he emotionally works through it. A minority of men just try to work through it at the wrong time, with the wrong person, in an emotionally inconsistent way.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Are you a woman? Do you have to turn down the sexual advances of men on a decently regular basis? If not I don’t know how you could think you would be aware of what the norm is for such a situation.

[–]MxCmrnPurple Pill Man1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Since you decided to go there. The place of “you can’t possibly understand because your not blank”. Where two different parties can’t come to an understanding. Then I offer this, since you’re not a man you can’t possibly understand what it’s like to be in a position of constant rejection.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

If you've ever been in that position before it's not quite that simple. Some guys press the issue, others get mad. When you're honest. Others lash out.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

When you say "that position," what exactly do you mean?

If you are saying I've never been brutally honest, you don't know the first thing about me.

If you are saying I've never rejected someone who only wanted sex, I have. When I was fresh back from my first deployment, about a dozen women directly propositioned me for sex within 2 weeks of my arrival, because that's just the way things work at most home stations. I turned them all down, telling them I don't have sex before marriage. The six of them who asked me in private took it well. The others reacted very negatively, two violently. Regardless, I maintained friendly relationships with all of them, or at least cordial relationships if I didn't regularly interact with them.

If you're still not satisfied with my previous answer, and say that I haven't ever been afraid a man who is bigger and stronger than me will react violently to the truth, I guess you're sorta right. Myself, my sister, and my mother have all learned enough self defense to be competent in a fight, and I suggest the same to anyone. I don't understand how anyone can interact with someone in fear and not do anything about it.

At any rate, I am intimately aware with the many reactions people have to rejection, from both sides of the interaction. I don't blame those with an anger response, I don't fear those who lash out, I thank all those who take it well, and I expect the same from everyone, man or woman.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I mean in a position of having to reject someone like that, someone you thought was a friend, someone whose feelings you are trying to be careful not to hurt as well.

I was not attempting to assume anything about you, specifically.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're right about the assumptions bit. I'm the one jumping to conclusions here, and I apologize.

To your first point, I have been in that position. I didn't want to hurt her feelings, but I knew that if I didn't tell her the truth, both of us would be worse for it. She was one of those positive reactions, and I have a hard time imagining a true friend having a negative one on the scale of the other ones in my previous reply. I sympathize for those who don't want to tell the truth, but I don't excuse it.

[–]TheWhitestOrca8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Dude, you’re just getting ridiculous. Being told that your friend doesn’t want to fuck you because it will “ruin the friendship” when she really just isn’t attracted to you isn’t going to cause someone mental anguish unless they’re actually in love with the friend, and the other person has stated that if that were the case, then she’d be honest because being friends with someone you love, but does not love you back can be painful. However, if you’re just horny and want to fuck your friend just to have sex, then being told it’ll “ruin the friendship” isn’t going to cause you mental anguish.

Plus, what do you even mean that they’ll have mental anguish until someone tells them the truth? Nobody is going to be like “actually your friend didn’t want to fuck you because she’s not actually attracted to you.” And even if they did, and even if this poor man was suffering severe mental anguish because he just couldn’t fuck that one friend, then how is being told that your friend just isn’t attracted to you going to make you feel any better? It won’t. Your friend still isn’t going to fuck you, and that’s what’s causing your mental anguish in the first place.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

unless they’re actually in love with the friend, and the other person has stated that if that were the case, then she’d be honest because being friends with someone you love, but does not love you back can be painful.

This is the only situation I was referring to when I was talking about mental anguish. I think I'm honestly a little too hung up on this one because I've seen it many many times. I don't think most men experience mental or emotional pain from being told their friend doesn't want to fuck them, even if the friend initially lied.

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not in my experience. Tell a man his hairstyle is crap and he will argue with you until you give in and agree with him. Very few people can take naked criticism, men just think they can.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean I would and I do. I wouldn’t expect my friends to soften any blows for me either.

[–]darudeboysandstormSoup on the stove, bread rising, apple pie1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

White lies to spare someone’s feelings happen all the time.

Rarely the case in male to male friendships.

[–]andipandey5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Maybe so. But we’re not talking about MM friendships. We’re talking about FM friendships and clearly the dynamics are slightly different since this whole post is about banging female friends (which they wouldn’t do with male friends)

[–]darudeboysandstormSoup on the stove, bread rising, apple pie2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

(which they wouldn’t do with male friends)

Theres a couple that prolly would.

[–]andipandey2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Haha take my upvote

[–]darudeboysandstormSoup on the stove, bread rising, apple pie0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh I am just trying to say most guys are gonna be confused by this.

[–]MisterJose1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think human beings are rarely 'totally honest' with each other. I have friends who do things that irritate me, and have days I hate all humans besides. I don't always express that because...well why? We try to get along with people, that's not a negative thing.

[–]carrawayjames-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Lol They have male friends for their validation

[–]andipandey8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

LOL do you think our male friends just sit around telling us how pretty we look all day?

No. They’re real friends. Friends who have been there when my dad was sick with cancer. Friends I’ve talked down when they were spiraling in depression or dealing with a breakup. Friends who drive each other to doctors appointments and ask for advice. Friendship is a two way street and they’re not orbiters.

[–]carrawayjames-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So ask yourself this question. How much are you doing for them?

[–]andipandey5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

An equal amount. I listen when they have girl problems or in ones case, goes through a BPD episode. I’ve made soup and gone out and bought stuff for my guy friends when they’re sick. I’ve picked them up from airports. Etc etc etc

I treat them the exact same I would my female friends. And I don’t ever expect them to put in all the work — that’s not a friendship then.

[–]carrawayjames0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lucky you..I'm proud

[–]MisterJose0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why? We’re friends. I never agreed to put myself in a situation for anything beyond that.

"Men don't have platonic friends, we just have women he haven't fucked yet." - Chris Rock

Also a cute video highlighting the difference in perspectives: https://youtu.be/T_lh5fR4DMA

I think the reality is that dynamics between men an women naturally lend themselves to guys hanging around women hoping to build interest. They might not even realize or be completely honest or aware with themselves about it. It's not like they can't stand being around female friends for other reasons, it's just that sex would also be great.

I was jerking off to my female friends back in the day, and still managed to convince myself we were friends. It's actually quite amazing in retrospect. It's also partially because you wanted to be seen as a 'good guy', and you see your natural lust and desires portrayed as gross or creepy or unwanted by media, or told that by women, so you hide it.

[–]Reed_49830 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

They might not even realize or be completely honest or aware with themselves about it.

It's also partially because you wanted to be seen as a 'good guy', and you see your natural lust and desires portrayed as gross or creepy or unwanted by media, or told that by women, so you hide it.

This is kinda intellectually dishonest. You created all kinds of loopholes to explain even cases of male friends not wanting to fuck female friends with "they want to fuck their female friends". Nothing can convince you there are men who genuienly don't have the desire to have sex with their female friends, because you'd say it still must be there, but they aren't aware of it, or it's because of societal restrictions. Bad move IMO.

[–]MisterJose0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wasn't talking about literally every guy everywhere. I'm just describing something that happens a lot.

[–]ashitanothrowaway-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So, you'd rather rend a friendship than risk a friendship ending because they didn't like that you told them the truth? Ok

[–]andipandey2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m not ending any friendships. I said if it pains a guy to be friends with me cuz he has feelings or all he wants is sex, than he can walk away. I’m a great friend to people I care about, but I definitely owe no guy friend sex. So if he feels that way then yeah he can walk cuz it says he’s not a real friend if the only reason he wants to hang around me is for his dick. No one is forcing him to be my friend.

[–]ashitanothrowaway-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

OK I thought you meant if he wanted an explanation, that he didn't have to be your friend.

I feel that wanting an explanation is someone's way of showing they care in not directly leaving a situation.

Like if a guy doesn't know why, he may think that it is something misunderstood or changeable.

If he finds out is simply a lack of attraction, he can swallow that tough pill and either not be friends or learn to make you unattractive in his own mind, but being on different pages about wanting to be platonic kills the level of enjoyment and openness in a friendship.

Maybe I am a little jaded, but I have interpreted it not as letting someone down easy, but seeing that hope as useful. Like there was a woman I was in her friend zone, but we turned me down in a way that left then do or of hope open enough for her to walk back in when she became available.

This stuff is mostly difficult for guys who purposefully limit their partners or have a hard time finding partners, though. Letting the hope linger is very uncomfortable.

[–]BewareTheOldMan2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Here's the deal - it's not about "softening the blow" to avoid hurt feelings. It's about losing the on-call errand boy service without having to give up sex. It's about benefits a female can extract from her male "friend(s)" WITHOUT any requirement of sex...because she's just not attracted to him.

There's nothing wrong with not being attracted to male friends, but lots of these guys are on errand-boy and extra-helper duty because the guys she's putting out for don't do errands and other boyfriend stuff.

Any dude who basically is the errand-boy needs to go on with his life and stop pining for a woman who has zero attraction to him.

*Interesting...it took almost to the last comment for someone to even make this very basic and well-known point.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Or maybe, just maybe, we really are actually friends and I don’t want to mess that up.

[–]OfSpock3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No. No. Redpillers are only pretending to be women's friends so all guys are just pretending to be women's friend. There can be no other explanation.

[–]BewareTheOldMan1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I in fact note your dry and terrible sarcasm and I offer you this - men and women can indeed truly be friends...as long as it's an actual friendship that is at the very least mutuality beneficial, reciprocal, selfless, and not self-serving. Anything other than that serves no purpose to the man, it only benefits women who enjoy 24-hour availability of her beta-orbiter errand-boy and extra-helper.

[–]DXBrigade0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Plenty of male friends, none of them are beta orbiters or errand boys. Why do men always picture men and women friendship that way ?

[–]BewareTheOldMan-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know you read my comment, but just in case...men and women can indeed truly be friends...as long as it's an actual friendship that is at the very least mutuality beneficial, reciprocal, selfless, and not self-serving. Anything other than that serves no purpose to the man, it only benefits women who enjoy 24-hour availability of her beta-orbiter errand-boy and extra-helper.

The problem is that many women have a one-sided relationship where they benefit much more than the man from this so-called friendship. Even worse is they don't get laid. That's wonderful if you're the exception, but hell - lots of women can't properly carry a relationship much less be friends with men on a platonic basis.

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. I had a female best friend for several years who I was not at all attracted to. She felt the same way about me, and neither of us wanted to fuck up the friendship or risk it by entering a romantic relationship.

[–]BewareTheOldMan0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's possible...as long as it's an actual friendship that is at the very least mutuality beneficial, reciprocal, selfless, and not self-serving. Anything other than that serves no purpose to the man, it only benefits women who enjoy 24-hour availability of her beta-orbiter errand-boy and extra-helper.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s interesting to me that when women talk about friends you don’t automatically assume we’re talking about actual friendship :/

[–]BewareTheOldMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I acknowledge the exception - there are in fact actual friendships with men and women. However, those are few in number and not the norm. It's generally a setup whereby the female benefits much more than the man in these so-called actual friendships. That's not actual friendship. These guys are basically beta-orbiter idiots in a one-sided half-ass friendship with some woman who places some stupid dude on errand-boy duty.

This help women - NOT men.

[–]crackrocksteady7buying gf2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There's nothing wrong with not being attracted to male friends, but lots of these guys are on errand-boy and extra-helper duty because the guys she's putting out for don't do errands and other boyfriend stuff.

even in my bluepilled days i always instantly shot stuff like this down. how can you be so naive and not see that youre being taken advantage of?

[–]chaddad90000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

ha, I couldn't even stand it when girlfriends would pull that shit, I can't even imagine.

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lots of these guys are on errand-boy and extra-helper duty because the guys she's putting out for don't do errands and other boyfriend stuff.

THIS!!! NEVER AGAIN!!!

[–]trail220 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Honestly any guy asking why they dont want to date is being stupid.

But a women who offers it up after their guy friend gets rejected just aint helping.

[–]Reed_49830 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

So you really are only attracted to 1% of all men out there? I imagine that must be a rough deal, being so limited in your dating options and being a person who confirms RP stereotypes about women to take the biscuit.

[–]andipandey0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

That attraction number includes both physical and mental traits and was just a random number I put down. But yes, I am quite picky, which for the time has worked out fine for me and I honestly don’t feel limited at all — it’s always been easy to meet men that are interested in me that I’m attracted to, and because there are fewer, it’s allowed that attraction to flourish into more serious relationships without distraction.

And LOL RP has so many stereotypes, I guess I confirm one, that I’m selective in who I’m attracted to because I have the option to be. But I don’t practice hypergamy or any of the other crap. Sorry for being honest.

[–]Reed_49830 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Wait, when you say "you're being selective to who you're attracted to" you imply it's your choice to be attracted to certain men? Isn't attraction more of an innate feeling that can't be changed? Because if it weren't, surely you could also choose to try to be attracted to one of the 99% of your male friends (and I would argue that sex could still be enjoyable with a man you figured you weren't attracted to, since female sexuality is sometimes said to be reactive), instead of the sentiment that you can't help who you're attracted to. Just in theory of course.

Nothing wrong with being selective, I'm not criticizing you there. In fact, I'm very selective with who I want to be in a relationship with, but that's more a thing of shared values and maturity rather than physical attraction. My question would be however, do you think your "1%" of attractive men are in the category of being highly attractive to women at large - men who are sought after, who literally have women fighting each other for their devotion? Because if that were the case, and if most women would be like I just described (and I'm not saying they are) one could very well argue that this sort of sexuality is damaging to people - since most men would not get attention and most women would also be unhappy, since only very few could be with that hotly contested small share of men long-term.

[–]andipandey0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate such a thoughtful answer. I think there’s tiers of attraction. Tier one is the person you’re just magnetically drawn to, can’t stop drooling over. There’s no helping that attraction. Tier 2 is a little less than that. Attraction with maybe some flaws and less chemistry. Tier 3 are people you’re not initially attracted to but they can grow over time for their other traits. I’ve personally chosen at this time to only go for men that are in my tier 1 or 2 levels of attraction because I have that option (I recognize that with time, that option may disappear). I agree that maturity and personality are equally, if not more, important for long term relationships.

to answer your question, i would say that the men I have dated in recent years are probably widely considered attractive (ex is a signed model, current guy was on tv some years back), and I can see how this could potentially be damaging. However, my one caveat is looks is just the tip of the iceberg. I’ve refused very handsome men because they had the brains of a cow or the personality of a toad. And truth be told, I’d rather date a man who is less good looking but is compassionate, mature, funny, etc. I’ve just been very lucky to meet men that are interested in me that I find both attractive mentally and physically. I think if these men weren’t giving me attention or were only treating me as a “side piece” I would open up to other tiers of attraction more

[–]nomuppetyourmuppet6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women say “sex will ruin our friendship” because they don’t want to sleep with you. It’s called, “letting you down easy”. Stop pursuing it.

[–]Lonny_zone7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If she is your friend and wants sex with you as well, then that means she wants you as a boyfriend. That’s called a crush. If any girl says “sex would ruin our friendship” to you that means she does not find you attractive enough to have sex with, or perhaps at best you’re aight and she wants something better.

[–]Eastuss 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

Sex would ruin our deal in which I'm getting everything I need and I give you nothing back

[–]sublimemongrel 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Just because you aren’t sleeping with a guy doesn’t mean you are using him and “giving nothing back” I mean come on

[–]shithappenslol 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah... this kind of implies that the only thing a woman has to offer a male friend is sex and that’s just wrong.

[–]Eastuss 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

What is she giving back to a man who want relationship and sex with her? Nothing. She gets what she wants, she gives back what she wants, everything is in her own terms, and she doesn't want it to change.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband[M] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Automod please.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I swear the flair wasn't here when I posted >.<

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

denying sex to a man is a definitive trait of the friendship.

DENYING?

What the hell?

Women do not deny their friends sex - it's a given that there is no sex in a friendship. Unless a FWB has been established. And then it's not exactly a friendship - it's become something else.

If I don't have sex with friends it's not because they are friends, but because they are males

Would you DENY a male friend who wanted to have sex with you?

[–]suscribednowhere0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would deny a female friend (I'm female), mainly because I'm female myself and straight. But I usually don't think about sex with guys at all, honestly );

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.14 points15 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I have never said such a thing. If he’s a legit friend chances are I didn’t want to sleep with him to begin with, which I did not feel the need to justify like that. My guess is the women who have said this also don’t want to sleep with a dude. I personally would not have a FWB but hey plenty of people have those setups from what I hear and enjoy them.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Is it just a question of nomenclature then, what would you say

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.9 points10 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Could be an excuse she says to try and spare his feelings, or legitimate, idk.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

No I mean the response you give. What do you say to turn down these men

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

“No”

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I've never heard this "no" thing before. Tell me more.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

You know how I never responded to your pm the other day? You can also take that as a “no”

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Which one?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

You’ve PM’d me under other nicks?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Nicks?

I don't think I've ever PM-ed you.

[–]hotcaulkPurple Pill7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I tried that but 2 out of 3 became possessive and entitled. They were a good friend, we fuck a time or two, and now they are a clingy mess, at best. Even when I explicitly said "I won't date you but I am DTF" more than once, 2 out of 3 got mad at me for "leading them on." I just don't do that shit anymore. Not worth holding their hand while they hurt their own feelings.

Dudes are just as bad as women, worse in my experience, when it comes to "I won't get emotional." At least most women can just have a good cry and move on, some dudes have to get all "shouty" and destructive.

For the most part, i think the genders are somewhat equal offenders. I think it's distributed like intelligence along gender lines (fewer "average" ability men with more at either extreme, more "average" ability women with fewer at either extreme). Yes, you can be a feminist/progressive while acknowledging gendered patterns in human behavior.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“I’m not attracted to you but I like you platonically and enjoy doing activities with you”

[–]suscribednowhere2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lmao @ "shouty"

[–]Yonderlander3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think there's a grey area sometimes with friends who aren't suitable for a relationship but a drunken hookup could happen. I feel like I did that in my teens and twenties a few times, and there was always an atmosphere or tension afterwards that wasn't there before. It might be possible to stay friends, but things aren't the same. At that age its worth it, because its fun and every hole is a goal kind of thing, but after a while you value the good friendships more and don't want to jeapordise them for a cheap shag. You also come to learn (pun intended) that in all probability the sex won't be that good anyway and then you will both feel awkward.

There are loads of other reasons, but this is my reason.

[–]GridReXXit be like that3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Casual sex has a tendency to ruin “the friendship” when either person falls for the other person.

It’s actually rare when that doesn’t happen. 8 times out of ten, one of them has always or will grow to like the other person as more than a fuck buddy.

The friendship becomes compromised when those feelings aren’t reciprocated or can’t be indulged for whatever reason.

That said I’ve seen things happen where people hookup. Have a weird falling out when that happens. And then some time later, the two are able to be actual friends again.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man4 points5 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

it means she has zero sexual attraction to you, but she likes the fact that you give her your time, attention, validation, and emotional support without receiving anything in return.

[–]czerdec4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

it means she has zero sexual attraction to you,

So why have I later had consensual sex with women who said that to me?

Maybe she means what she says: a fuck is a few hours of pleasure which forever changes the friendship and introduces volatile new feelings.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

keyword: later.

apparently you did something and either she started being sexually attracted to you, or she started thinking that she could fuck you and you wouldn't be all needy and weird later.

[–]czerdec0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Or the attraction was always there, in a latent form that her conscious mind didn't have access to. Right now your brain is deciding what kind of enzymes to produce in your body, but you can't tell me which ones because you don't have conscious access to that. It's an automatic process. For women, I think attraction can be like that.

We tend to know exactly what we'd stick our dicks into, but I think women can be surprised to learn that they always liked somebody.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

if she didnt want to fuck you at first, and she didn't even think she wanted to fuck you, for all intents and purposes she wasn't attracted to you. what's even the point of arguing "oh well sometimes she's attracted but just doesn't know it yet" it's retarded man

[–]czerdec0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

if she didnt want to fuck you at first, and she didn't even think she wanted to fuck you, for all intents and purposes she wasn't attracted to you.

Who knows more about this situation: you or me?

Go to a poker table with experienced players and tell me they can't read your unconscious signals (they call them tells) like a book.

You can't see what's in your unconscious, but another person totally can, if he knows how to read tells.

I maintained the friendship because I saw the tells and got the tail.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

why do you have such a boner about this? what is even the point? are you trying to convince me that you are some kind of master seducer and mind-reader or something?

some chick said she didn't want to have sex with you because sex would ruin the friendship, then later she fucked you. but for some unknown reason you deny the simplest, most straightforward (and correct) explanation that she wasn't sexually attracted to you at first but then something changed and she became sexually attracted to you.

you have this bizarre idea "the attraction was always there, in a latent form that her conscious mind didn't have access to" but that you could magically read her subconscious mind like a poker player or some shit. and since you are such a master mind reader, you played the long con and eventually banged her.

no, come on man this is retarded. how about this: you let yourself get friendzoned like a dupe but you were the rare example of a guy who successfully escaped the friendzone. she wasn't secretly subconsciously attracted to you, that's fuckin stupid

[–]czerdec0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

You made a bad argument and you were showy and rude about it.

If you are going to make crummy arguments which stand as mockery to the very notion of logic, for God's sake be nice.

If you are going to be wrong and douchey at the same time, I am going to forensically take your whole point apart in excruciating detail.

Be nice. It is better.

[–]blackedoutfast 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

logic

lol ok yeah you're really using a lot of logic mr. "she subconsciously really was attracted to me the whole time but didn't know it but i could totes read her mind"

I am going to forensically take your whole point apart in excruciating detail.

lol omg my sides. so not only can you read people's subconscious like some super cool poker player, but you're also an internet badass. 🤣 bro seriously, you're not the master debator you think you are, you honestly seem kinda moronic. quit trying to front like you're mr cool, it's not working

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Wait; wouldn't she also be giving you her time, attention, validation and emotional support?

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

These relationships tend to be unequal.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

no usually with these things it's like 99:1 going in the direction of the girl. if a beta orbiter ever starts wanting attention, validation, etc the girl will be like "eww stop being so needy"

[–]prostate-apostatespectacle beta13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

1)you are ugly and i don't want to sleep with you

2)you already play the bf role without me putting out so why should i start know

3) am already sleeping with more attractive people than You

4) you /i would get emotionally attached and I don't see you as bf material

5) lol this free meal ticket thknks we are even friends .

[–]_Tumbleweed-Gym Thot10 points11 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

I don’t fuck for free.

[–]HannibalDarko5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Is it just me?

Is it just me or

Is this sex so good I shouldn't have to fuck for free?

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have to respect your honesty, but a guy pointing this out gets shit on hard. It leads to some pretty problematic conclusions.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women all value sex differently. Some treat it as pair bonding for romantic relationships, some treat it as just recreation, but they are still focused on getting the most enjoyable experience possible.

[–]creamypouf3 points4 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

So it's a transaction after all.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Some women view sex transactionally, some don't. Casual sex doesn't benefit women. How does fucking a bunch of random guys for free benefit me in any way, shape or form?

[–]oodsigma2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Sex feels good?

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂5 points6 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

That really depends lol. No sex is better than bad sex.

[–]oodsigma0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. But even if it were, you can't know it's going to be bad

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I’m gathering from this comment that you’re a man lol

[–]oodsigma0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

How does that matter in any way?

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It explains why you don’t understand why women wouldn’t be into casual sex. For you, all sex is good sex. For women that is not the case at all and understanding that is the first step towards understanding lots of other things about women.

[–]oodsigma0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

When did I say all sex is good sex? Just because I think bad sex is better than no sex doesn't mean I think there's no such thing as bad sex. And even if did, that doesn't change the point. My point wasn't, "all sex is great so there's never any reason not to have casual sex". My point was, sex being fun is enough of a reason to have sex. The post I originally replied to asked how having sex benefits her. The answer is that the sex is the benefit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't mean most women want to fuck random gross guys off the street.

[–]sugarcurious 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Casual sex doesn’t benefit women

I’ll have to disagree. Granted, not every instance of casual sex is always stellar. But I like sex ergo it benefits me (a woman).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't see what women get out of having shitty NSA sex with randoms. Sex with a trusted FWB or boyfriend has always felt better.

[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So let's negotiate your price.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because the minute I get into a real relationship that person is probably going to insist we don't hang out again. Witch is fair. You're akin to an ex at that point.

So it sets a very real and often very short, expiry date.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

we mean we don't want to have sex with you because you're not appealing but you're also our friend so we don't want to be mean and tell you that you're ugly/not desirable

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Why lie to your friend though? I thought we were supposed to trust our friends.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

its not a lie. sex would ruin our friendship, because the experience of his ugly self sweating and panting and hovering over me would suspend me in disgust everytime i saw him afterwards

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, but just tell him it’s because you don’t find him attractive. Why is that so hard?

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

because telling ppl theyre ugly is a mean thing to do

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I mean look at how you described them? If my friend found me repulsive I’d sure want to them to tell me. You seemed pretty mean there.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

yeah this is how i describe them anonymously. why would you want to know a friend is sexually repulsed by you

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Because I’d want transparency and honesty from my friends. Otherwise why are we even friends? I’d prefer my friends tell me I’m ugly to my face rather than just think about it the entire time.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

well i would prefer platitudes myself so im gonna treat people how i want to be treated lol

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can’t argue with that then.

[–]matrixpush2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Assuming the friend is an orbiter, and he probably is, it's a nice way of the woman saying:

Look, any random guy on the street or a bar has a better shot with me than you (whether one night or not), but I value your friendship although you're just a few steps above having a real cat LOL

[–]KikiYuyuPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

To me, and presumably many other woman... you don't fuck your friends. It's almost perverse. Nothing about a platonic relationship makes me want to get busy. That and I wouldn't want to have sex in a non-romantic, non-LTR anyway.

[–]SelfUnmadeManruminator1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is essentially "let's just be friends" right? Friendzoned.

[–]BewareTheOldMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's the deal - it's not about "softening the blow" to avoid hurt feelings. It's about losing the on-call errand boy service without having to give up sex. It's about benefits a female can extract from her male "friend(s)" WITHOUT any requirement of sex...because she's just not attracted to him.

There's nothing wrong with not being attracted to male friends, but lots of these guys are on errand-boy and extra-helper duty because the guys she's putting out for don't do errands and other boyfriend stuff.

Any dude who basically is the errand-boy needs to go on with his life and stop pining for a woman who has zero attraction to him.

*Interesting...it took almost to the last comment for someone to even make this very basic and well-known point.

[–]v3r11 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They mean "you are not attractive enough"

[–]Zero_The-HeroValhalla awaits1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This should be good 🍿

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They aren’t in every scenario. I’ve had several “successful” friends with benefits situations where it didn’t kill the friendship. But sometimes it does. One person could catch unrequited feelings. All sorts of things could go wrong. And sometimes good genuine friendships aren’t worth the risk.

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And sometimes good genuine friendships aren’t worth the risk.

Agreed.

[–]carrawayjames1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Usually when a woman friendzones you she's basically saying she's cut off all options of having sex with you. You're her gay best friend. There is exceptions but that's most of the time what happens.

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The discussion in this thread reinforces my belief that if a woman isn't DTF straightaway its best to move on ASAP.

[–]HawanjaAncient Deadly Ninja Baby1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It means she doesn't want to be your girlfriend. If that's what you want, move on.

[–]Female_urinary_mazeWOMEN LIKE SEX.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's probably safe to assume that if she says she's afraid of how it'll affect your friendship that's the truth. The feelings that are associated with sex can be overwhelming, and it's normal for people to fear change. Sex might be a much bigger deal emotionally to her than to you. You see something fun to do with a friend, but maybe she sees caught feelings waiting to happen or a short lived relationship that could bloom and die taking the status quo of your friendship with it. It's a fear of loss thing. You're just too important to take emotional risks with.

[–]Realityinmyhand1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

There's no such thing as a friendship between straight men and women.

Women will pretend that it is a friendship because they don't want to fuck the guy but want to keep him around for attention, resources and validation but the guy will want to fuck her or have feelings, every time (and unless she's utterly naive, the woman knows it and exploit it). Or the opposite, which is rarer but possible.

The only exception is if the woman is ugly. Then friendship is possible.

[–]BewareTheOldMan4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Here's the deal - it's not about "softening the blow" to avoid hurt feelings. It's about losing the on-call errand boy service without having to give up sex. It's about benefits a female can extract from her male "friend(s)" WITHOUT any requirement of sex...because she's just not attracted to him.

There's nothing wrong with not being attracted to male friends, but lots of these guys are on errand-boy and extra-helper duty because the guys she's putting out for don't do errands and other boyfriend stuff.

Any dude who basically is the errand-boy needs to go on with his life and stop pining for a woman who has zero attraction to him.

*Interesting...it took almost to the last comment for someone to even make this very basic and well-known point.

[–]sugarcurious 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

I feel sorry for the “friendships” you’ve had.

[–]BewareTheOldMan1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

OK - I'll play...how so? For the record I have very few female friends, both now and in the past. I'm curious though, why do you have specific "concern" for me regarding this topic?

[–]sugarcurious 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just the way you described things makes it seem like you've never experienced genuine mixed-gender friendships.

[–]BewareTheOldMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You'd be wrong - I've actually had three excellent mixed-gender friendships which were mutuality beneficial, reciprocal, selfless, and not self-serving. One occurred as a teenager, the other two as an adult. Again – those friendships were mutuality beneficial, reciprocal, selfless, and not self-serving. Anything other than that serves no purpose to the man, it only benefits women who enjoy 24-hour availability of her beta-orbiter errand-boy and extra-helper.

There were never any issues of misuse, abuse, mistrust, or any person taking advantage of the other…unlike the few instances where women tried to do exactly those things and relegate me to on-call errand-boy and extra-helper position. I had enough self-worth and awareness to simply end the relationship. My procedure was the same whether I had romantic interest in the woman or not.

It was easy to see when women were taking advantage of a good situation, whether there was romantic interest on my part or not...which as I recall only happened once or twice. It’s as simple as that. Don’t be the beta-orbiter. That’s for suckers. You’re either the true and actual friend who has zero romantic intent, the friend-with-benefits, the publicly acknowledged boyfriend, or the husband. That’s it – if you’re not one of the aforementioned positions, you’re the beta-orbiter sucker.

The simple reality is that most men have little use for male-female friendships. Male-male friendships are more naturally occurring, almost always without issues, and never have romantic implications.

In most male-female friendships, the guy simply gets used like a basic SIMP. That's not cool, and I would expect men to see the unfair dynamic and get better and more appreciative friends.

[–]emailpassword12 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

because they don't want to fuck the guy but want to keep him around for attention, resources and validation but the guy will want to fuck her or have feelings, every time (and unless she's utterly naive, the

Oh give me a break. I have friends who are blokes, and we hang out because we enjoy each others company and have the same interests and hobbies. I helped countless dudes move house, listen to them cry about their lady problems, feed that dog when they are on holidays etc etc. Don't project your own short comings onto everyone else.

And no, I'm not ugly.

[–]Realityinmyhand0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

unless she's utterly naive

Or you're not as hot as you think you are. Your choice.

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[–]dicklord_airplane11 points12 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

This has happened to me a few times. Sex often does change things with friends. The biggest issue was always jealousy and awkwardness when either of us moved on to new partners. Those girl's new boyfriends were really uncomfortable when i hung out with the girl because im good looking and we used to have good sex. And needless to say, girls often become really uncomfortable when i hang out with my former hot FWB's.

Also, FWB arrangements don't always end nicely. One person usually has deeper feelings or wants the sex to continue, and it hurts when its over. Its hard to stay "just friends" with someone when you're pining for sex with with them. And then you get really jealous when they move on.

Sometimes it's better to foresee these issues and avoid it entirely. Especially if your breakup would cause a schism in your friend or professional network.

[–]tapertown2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I’ve personally only had one case of ‘sex with a friend’ not totally wreck a friendship, and that was the case where we weren’t that close as friends anyway and were both pretty apathetic about the whole thing. In every other case one of us caught feelings (usually me) and didn’t want to accept when it was over.

[–]dicklord_airplane2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Me too. Friendship only works when we don't think about each other much. Or if you're both skanky/non monogamous people to begin with. That works just fine.

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the only time it ever really worked for me was when I got back together with an old girlfriend and then she started seeing a good buddy of mine (who didn't know), and it was like okay we better figure out how to be good with this.

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep, it is expected that you cut off old FWBs when you get serious with someone. Well, you can remain friendly but that's about it.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This has happened to me a few times. Sex often does change things with friends. The biggest issue was always jealousy and awkwardness when either of us moved on to new partners. Those girl's new boyfriends were really uncomfortable when i hung out with the girl because im good looking and we used to have good sex. And needless to say, girls often become really uncomfortable when i hang out with my former hot FWB's.

We just need some kind of culture for people who don't have jealousy and do not give fucks about whether their partners have someone else.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (70 children) | Copy Link

Lol it’s just an excuse to not say “you’re not hot enough for me to want to fuck”. Don’t get me wrong, I get it. But just be honest sometimes.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband6 points7 points  (68 children) | Copy Link

You don't think that would spoil the friendship 99% of the time?

[–]squiddy_s550gtwhy so butthurt?3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You think friendships last forever? Once the other one gets married it's usually over anyway for the most part

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You think friendships last forever? Once the other one gets married it's usually over anyway for the most part

Nope.

[–]squiddy_s550gtwhy so butthurt?1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I bet a survey would determine otherwise

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I meant no, friendships don't have to last forever.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Nah. If anything it could bring them closer. It’s just sex, plenty of people have FWBs and they’re just fine. However, being a FWB implies that you two are attracted to each other, just can’t date. If you’re not down for that, it just means either one or both isn’t attracted to each other at all. Seriously, if any woman were to ask their male friends if they’re down to fuck, 99% of the time (provided the girl isn’t too terrribly fat or unattractive) the male friends would be absolutely down to do it.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

No I'm saying if she told the guy he wasn't attractive enough to fuck. Do you think he would continue being her friend?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Probably not, but at that point they’re both in different frames of mind toward each other and it’s probably time to go separate ways. Either he accepts that and moves on; or he gets mad, isn’t satisfied with the friendship, and then ends the friendship entirely. If two people have different feelings toward each other, no matter what kind of relationship it is, it cannot continue.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

That's fair and all from his POV. Which is why it's fair from her POV to ask for sex not to ruin their friendship.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

I guess, but truth be told the request has already been made. The idea has already been sprung, people shouldn’t lie to each other and just be honest in the situation. Fact is, if he was hot she would be down too. But she’s not, so she might as well just say “you’re not hot enough for me to want to fuck” and let him make the decision if he wants to proceed with the friendship. Is what it is, we can’t go back.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

What's there to be honest about? From her POV she is being 100% honest about her intentions with being unnecessarily cruel to someone who she does care for.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

No, she just doesn’t think he’s hot. If she did, they would have had sex, or enter a FWB relationship. She should just say that and get it over with.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ6 points7 points  (46 children) | Copy Link

That "friendship" is just him insisting and her refusing to say no, not an actual friendship, she doesn't want him to stop throwing attention at her, that's what's happening.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband5 points6 points  (45 children) | Copy Link

That "friendship" is just him insisting and her refusing to say no, not an actual friendship, she doesn't want him to stop throwing attention at her, that's what's happening.

That's not always the case. Sometimes they are actually, just friends. And because guys have a low bar, yes they would fuck their friends. But that doesn't mean he is just orbiting her.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here4 points5 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

It's just odd to call that a friendship though. If I wanted to be someone's friend and they wanted nothing to do with me, I wouldn't call that friendship. I think friends are a mutually beneficial relationship where one person doesn't want romantic involvement with the other.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband4 points5 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

It's just odd to call that a friendship though. If I wanted to be someone's friend and they wanted nothing to do with me, I wouldn't call that friendship. I think friends are a mutually beneficial relationship where one person doesn't want romantic involvement with the other.

Who said she doesn't want anything to do with the guy? She just doesn't want to fuck him.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here0 points1 point  (28 children) | Copy Link

It was a separate hypothetical with me lol but the point still stands. Why would you call someone a friend who doesn't want what you want out of the relationship?

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband2 points3 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

It was a separate hypothetical with me lol but the point still stands. Why would you call someone a friend who doesn't want what you want out of the relationship?

Because they've been treating you like a friend, and only have developed feelings for you because you've been treating them like a friend too.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here0 points1 point  (26 children) | Copy Link

Because they've been treating you like a friend

Well that can't be the standard. You can treat me like a friend and only want my money.

If you only wanted my money, I wouldn't consider you a friend even if I have developed feelings for them. I would be pissed, actually.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

If he made this proposal, I'm pretty sure he's orbiting her.

I've used this excuse once. It was because she was annoying, not because I valued the friendship. It's an excuse.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

If he made this proposal, I'm pretty sure he's orbiting her.

Maybe he is, but that doesn't mean she isn't giving him equal friendship for his time.

I've used this excuse once. It was because she was annoying, not because I valued the friendship. It's an excuse.

That's nice.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

What would be equal friendship for his time? The whole thing isn't friendship anyway. It's just a guy orbiting.

I'm a nice kind of person.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

What would be equal friendship for his time? The whole thing isn't friendship anyway. It's just a guy orbiting.

I'm a nice kind of person.

Hanging out, shooting the shit. Getting drinks, mixing social circles. Shared activities. Minor favors. Invites to dinner. You know, friendship...

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, that's great and all, but the entire time he's just a cracker packing in lustful energy, just "waiting for his chance" to "confess his undying love" and she's just enjoying the attention, while she may or may not be leading him on. So he's not interested in friendship, just a lustful rocket ready to take off.

My larger point being that you need two to tango. If she's being a friend and he's not, even if she is, that is not a friendship.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Interesting that you listed activities but never give your definition the most important aspect, that things not be one sided.

Very often an orbiter will participate in all of the things you listed as part of orbiting.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Varying degrees of orbiter exist imo. I usually suspect the dynamic.

I've known very few guys where they found a woman with enough in common to be friends.

Guys who have female friends who they are not orbiting have probably found a unicorn. It happens, I just don't think its that common.

Context is everything. Could I end up with a female friend that plays Path of Exile every day who cant wait for the next league/patch? yeah, that could serve as the basis for a genuine friendship free of romantic ulterior motive, but once again, I feel like I'm defining a unicorn.

Worse, I'm defining a unicorn so likely to be crowded with orbiters that a guy that isn't an orbiter is going to get lost in the noise.

From another angle look at people complaining about how hard it is to make friends of any type.

[–]KerPop42Neo was trans8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex is wayyyy more intimate than friendship, and it changes the dynamic. There's a neurochemical reason why "friends with benefits" is unstable.

[–]bonslytossChaste Opinionated Weirdo5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Truly an awful fate to be consigned to the suffering of being a friend. /s

Seriously though, I have so much beef with this opinion. Friends have immeasurable value, and sex changes your relationship in irrevocable ways. I would never undermine my friendships by pining for a romantic relationship, not even when I was a teenager.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband10 points11 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Q4Men: would you fuck your bros if they asked? I mean, it's just sex. If you get along anyway it's just natural. Saying "no" means you were never really friends to begin with.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

If we were gay, apparently yes. My bros are quite handsome. You can't use this strawman unless you're a lesbian or asexual. If you simply think a friend is not physically attractive, then it's just it. No need for these silly pseudoarguments.

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I would not have sex with any of my female friends; there were a few that I found attractive at different points.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

So, your friends are not attractive enough?

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

They are attractive. I don’t find them attractive.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you find any women attractive?

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hm, dunno why that happens.

I heard women typically try same-sex experience with their friends. In most cases they remain straight, though.

[–]JustRuss79RedPurple Man2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This a question for women, but I'd like to say something...

Female "friends" that I've slept with, were not deep friendships.

The deep friendships that I've slept with the girl, DID get awkward... we are still best friends, but had to put artificial distance between us when she got married later...because there is a chance one of us would snap at some point, and the other would have to be strong enough to say no...and possibly hurt the other one even though its for the best. We would not be compatible long-term in a relationship but when it was casual it was amazing, because of the lack of expectations.

When you touch a person, oxytocin is released into the body. The same chemical that makes mothers bond to newborns during breastfeeding, makes men and women crave each other like a drug. After a while the "honeymoon" phase ends and you are no longer addicted... but now you have sexual history... then a year later your hands touch and you get a jolt again... its hard.

I completely understand wanting to remain friends without benefits. It DOES change the relationship, and has more potential to ruin it than make it better, in the long run.

If you are providing emotional support and non-sex boyfriend services to a woman... STOP IT! Either realize you are literally cuckolding yourself and stop it, or try to move into an actual relationship with them.

Do not wait around for them to notice all the nice things you do for them. Do not wait to cash in your nice-guy chips. Make your play, and if you fail... pull back and reevaluate your friendship.

Most of my best friends are women. I'd like to sleep with most of my best friends. I don't sleep with any of my best female friends.

Don't cuckold yourself, be straight with yourself. Man up or get out, and if you decide to still be their friend...stop trying to sleep with them and just enjoy the friendship.

And if she doesn't want your friendship, when you stop doing boyfriend things, then move on. Friendship works both way, you can find other things in your friendship to fulfill you besides sex, if she can't find other things to fulfill her friendship with you besides emotional/financial support...don't let her use you. Get out.

[–]N0blesse0blige2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m posting the correct answer here, translated from womanese into fact:

I’m already fucking other more attractive men than you even though they don’t invest in me emotionally. Good thing I already have you to provide that emotional investment in their place, for free.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't believe there can be friendship if one expresses sexual tension. So the friendship is toast anyway.

[–]MMDTwomen, try to use your brain5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Allow me to translate: "It would ruin our current arrangement where you orbit me and I don't have to give anything in return"

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I always found it funny to do this to girls you have been dating for a little while. Tell her that you just want to remain friends and it would be "weird" if you had sex when she initiates. They won't laugh and will probably accuse you of mocking women but it's funny to me.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That would imply having female friends who want to have sex with you and then tell it explicitly to you.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I meant girls you are already dating and sleeping with. I'll edit.

[–]Mystery_Tragic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought it was another way of saying they aren't attracted to you and never will be.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You've been friendzoned, time to stop being friends

[–]subgamer90My own way is the best way0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol, it's code for she's just not that into you bro. She doesn't deny sex to her "friend" Tyrone. Most of the time you can't take what women say at face value, especially when it comes to sexual attraction. Gotta read between the lines

[–]squiddy_s550gtwhy so butthurt?0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It means you ugly. Having sex with friends is actually pretty common if they are attractive

[–]JustRuss79 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

This a question for women, but I'd like to say something...

Female "friends" that I've slept with, were not deep friendships.

The deep friendships that I've slept with the girl, DID get awkward... we are still best friends, but had to put artificial distance between us when she got married later...because there is a chance one of us would snap at some point, and the other would have to be strong enough to say no...and possibly hurt the other one even though its for the best. We would not be compatible long-term in a relationship but when it was casual it was amazing, because of the lack of expectations.

When you touch a person, oxytocin is released into the body. The same chemical that makes mothers bond to newborns during breastfeeding, makes men and women crave each other like a drug. After a while the "honeymoon" phase ends and you are no longer addicted... but now you have sexual history... then a year later your hands touch and you get a jolt again... its hard.

I completely understand wanting to remain friends without benefits. It DOES change the relationship, and has more potential to ruin it than make it better, in the long run.

If you are providing emotional support and non-sex boyfriend services to a woman... STOP IT! Either realize you are literally cuckolding yourself and stop it, or try to move into an actual relationship with them.

Do not wait around for them to notice all the nice things you do for them. Do not wait to cash in your nice-guy chips. Make your play, and if you fail... pull back and reevaluate your friendship.

Most of my best friends are women. I'd like to sleep with most of my best friends. I don't sleep with any of my best female friends.

Don't cuckold yourself, be straight with yourself. Man up or get out, and if you decide to still be their friend...stop trying to sleep with them and just enjoy the friendship.

And if she doesn't want your friendship, when you stop doing boyfriend things, then move on. Friendship works both way, you can find other things in your friendship to fulfill you besides sex, if she can't find other things to fulfill her friendship with you besides emotional/financial support...don't let her use you. Get out.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Automod please.

[–]simulet0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think they may be saying “Sex with you would ruin this friendship.”

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

because men stop idealising them

[–]tickledpic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a way to rejected your advances softly. She is not attracted to you sexually, but still want your attention.

That's why she doesn't want to reject you out right. Because you might stop spending time with her if she would straightforwardly say you don't ever have a chance to get in her pants.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s an excuse. She’s not attracted to you bro. You do to her vagina what a puppy being murdered in a blender does to her vagina.

[–]littleprincesrose0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Every relationship has a context and different boundaries. A non-sexual relationship cannot be turned into a sexual one unless both parties feel mutual attraction- but when there is that chemistry, it can be felt from the beginning. And if things turn sexual the dynamics change - some people mentioned before, things get weird and you risk losing that friendship if you start dating or hook up with other people- it’s almost guaranteed that someone gets hurt. It might work if Everyone involved is capable of separating sex and (romantic) love, but you have to be mature, fully honest to yourself and the other person, and let’s be honest that’s not very common. Otherwise, it’s jealousy, resentment, and can cause drama not only in 2 persons life, but in the friend group if things go bad. That’s a risk not always worth to take.

[–]Maybelowsmvman-repellant0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

in FWBs situation, until she catches feelings, then she probably didnt value your friendship that much (you probably have a flaw in your personality, or are too boring or distant for a deep friendship)

sleeping with a friend you dont want to lose, and ending up not dating or becoming distant... it isn't a great idea. she's probably attached to him as a friend, and there needs to be escalation to a relationship or just simply friendship. otherwise the dynamics will change (now noticeable on her side)

[–]czerdec0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

From experience, when you fuck a girl it does screw up the friendship, especially if you've tried dating.

The chemistry of a friendship is different than dating chemistry. When her sexual attraction is suppressed she thinks she's happy to see you because she likes how you talk.

When she realizes how much of the friendship was unconscious horniness it's hard to go back.

[–]Daerrol0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you were good friends and mutually attracted to each other, why wouldn't you be dating...?

I can imagine some situations but generally when people are:

Friends

Fucking

They tend to just jump right into dating.

[–]razenha0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It means she gets more kick out of exploring you than fucking you.

[–]Superfluous_ToastSex is only bad when she's not having it with you0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The thing about sex is that it can change the dynamic between people. Sex is a door opening, one that can be hard to close depending on the people involved. People are emotional beings, they get attached, get possessive, and end up getting their feelings hurt. If a girl agrees to have sex with her friend with the understanding that it's "just sex" and he becomes emotionally involved, that's a friendship ruined. If she decides she doesn't feel like sleeping with him anymore and he gets angry about it, that's a friendship ruined. If she finds someone she wants to date and that person isn't comfortable with the friend she was sleeping with, that makes things awkward. It's a can of worms, and takes a certain type of person to pull off correctly. It's easier to just never go there.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why is it a bad idea to fuck your boss/coworkers/roommates? Because sex irreversibly changes relationships.

[–]DXBrigade0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I consider friendship and sex to be mutually exclusive.

[–]doctor_trucks0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It means she doesnt want to sleep with you, but shes being nice about it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women can get sex anywhere so they don't mind skipping out on it to preserve a really useful beta orbiter.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are many reasons why sex would make a friendship more complicated. For example, one person could catch feelings, and the other doesn't. Or, one person meets someone they want a relationship with and then the other person gets jealous because the sexual arrangement might end. Or, one person might enter a relationship and their partner might get jealous of the friend or might have reservations about the two of them hanging out alone with each other because they used to have sex. Or one of them has a much higher sex drive/other incompatibilities and they start arguing about this. Each one of these reasons would be good enough not to endanger a great friendship with sex, especially when they are not super keen on having sex with that person in the first place (I'm sure that some women would risk losing someone as a not-so-close friend if they really wanted to have sex with this person).

I think it can be compared to moving in together. Sure, on the first glance sharing a flat with your best friend might seem like a great idea. However, while you may get along very well while living in different places, you might get on each other's nerves when sharing a flat. Maybe you'd start arguing about chores, or noise, or about which stuff was whose when you move out. Therefore, you might move in with someone you like, but not with someone you're afraid you might lose over who did the dishes less often.

[–]Papi_Knight0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here are some possible reasons 1. They're not attracted to the other person 2. If the sex is bad it's gonna get awkward for a while 3. Someone catches feelings it gets awkward 4. Someone has feelings and having sex makes it worse 5. Kink and fetishes may matter.

[–]LillthOfBabylon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Guys say that too. Sex makes things a big deal.

Is there anything else besides camouflaging "beta" as a "friend"?

If friendship is a punishment to you, you're a horrible friend and lover.

[–]Popgoesthesoda0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could be a few things, she doesn't find you attractive, she doesn't believe in casual sex, a worry that one/both of you will catch feelings, a worry that it will lead to issues with relationships or that she's worried the sex will be bad and doesn't want to deal with a later rejection.

[–]DivaDivine9150 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is just excuses she says because she isn't into you and using you for something so watch out

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Because women gain feelings through having sex, regardless of what any bloop tells you. There are hormones that cause attachment and feelings of love to develop, but really only if the sex was good.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol it’s because for a lot of women sex is tied up with their emotions and it’s something you do with a partner. Friends with benefits is messy. Too many hurt feelings and jealousy.

They also might not be attracted to you and this is letting you down easy.

[–]ashitanothrowaway-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a guy, I have this thing about not wanting to put too much of my energy where I can't put my dick, when it comes to women I find attractive and want to have sex with.

The second I imagine myself having sex with a woman, sex would not change the dynamic of the friendship for me -- NOT having sex would.

So, if I want to have sex with her, we'll only be able to stay friends if she is in a relationship or lives far a way, because not being on the same page about being platonic makes things awkward.

For me, if idk if we are on the same page, I will interpret her asking for favors or a listening ear as her using me, then I'll eventually burn that bridge.

We have to be on the same page about being platonic for it to work or it will create hard feelings

I wonder if I miss out on any good friendships like that.

And exception, though: if a woman contributes to me having sex (hooks me up with a cute friend) or is a business partner, I can still consider her a friend, but I have cut some of them off too.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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