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Question For WomenWhy are so many women having trouble with the Dating scene? (self.PurplePillDebate)

submitted by Jokengonzo

So my Girlfriend’s friends came over so they could have girl time and drink wine. Well before I took off to catch a meal with some friends I caught pieces of the convo they were having and it alll seemed to revolve on how hard dating was for them and that they were giving up dating for a while. My sister has also mentioned how many of her gfs are checking out of dating. Why though what’s making it so hard?


[–]Workaholico 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Offer and demand mismatch

The market has a small offer of higher valued men and even less of a offer of higher valued men interested in relationships while women have a high demand of those.

On the other hand, there is a big offer of non higher valued men and a big chunk of those want a relationship. But their demand is minimal to unexistant.

Most women want the highest men available or nothing. So they chose nothing. Most men want a woman, but by the lack of offer, many have no choice but end up alone.

Did I make sense for you? Any questions?

[–]mikew_reddit 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Offer and demand mismatch

Welcome to Lake Wobegon where everyone thinks they are above average.

Another post today described the average male: https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/b3r175/is_casual_sex_a_luxury_that_most_men_cant_afford/ej1gzfn/

Median male stats Overweight 5'9.5" $31,000 a year income High school education 100iq Sedentary lifestyle Harmless disposition

Many would describe him as fat, short, dumb, poor, lazy, but in reality he's average.

[–]DesignerDebates3 small children in a trench coat[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is tagged as Q4Women.

[–]DevilishRogue 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Unrealistic standards. Too many women seem to imagine that a guy who is prepared to have a one night stand with them should also be prepared to date them without realising that guys who are able to have a one night stand with them have far better options for dating than them.

[–]planejaneRemove head from sphincter, THEN type.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Are you female? This question is tagged as Q4W.

[–]doctor_trucks22 points23 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Human beings enjoy sitting around and complaining about things. It's a bonding experience. I sit around with my coworkers and complain about work, but none of us hate our jobs.

Women sit around and bitch about men. Men sit around and bitch about women. Teachers sit around and bitch about students. Students sit around and bitch about teachers.

None of these is indicative of any systemic problem. People just like to complain, and it's an easy topic of converstion.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Studies have shown that complaining makes you feel like shit. You should probably cut back on it a little.

[–]doctor_trucks0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sorry? I dont see where I am complaining. Just discussing a common social phenomenon. Feeling pretty great myself :)

[–]squiddy_s550gtwhy so butthurt?0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hate studies.

[–]Nobodykers5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Wow, that sounds so simple and logical. Get the fuck out.

[–]doctor_trucks1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's very rude for no reason :/

[–]whyisthisallowed10 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

.. Besides she crestures having proven massive group bias and their sexists comments remove empathy for men on a macro scale, sure.

[–]doctor_trucks1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

.. Besides she crestures having proven massive group bias and their sexists comments remove empathy for men on a macro scale, sure.

...... what? I cannot make sense of this comment.

[–]GradualDecomp24 points25 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Very few people in my circle are failing at dating. Just the common complaints of breakups and shitty dates.

The few women I know that are having serious trouble dating have issues holding them back. Extreme shyness, trauma, health problems, addiction, too many personal problems, demanding work schedules, being hung up on an ex, etc.

Just like MGTOW and similar forums, anyone complaining "where have all the good men/women gone?" are no good themselves. There's no shortage of either.

[–]JokengonzoPurple Pill Man[S] 3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Thing is these women are attractive and work decent jobs 2 are nurses and the other works with some realty company so not sure why they struggle with men

[–]GradualDecomp10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Having a good job and a pretty face doesn't exempt a person from life's struggles.

[–]billybones110 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

lol

[–]GayKonner1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can't tell if this person thinks that having a good job and a pretty face exempts a person from life's struggles *so much* that they think it's funny to even infer otherwise, or if they so strongly believe that it *goes without saying* good looks and a good job won't solve your problems that they think it's funny it even had to pointed out. And *that's* what I love about this sub.

[–]oneprettycoolcat3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't struggle with men. They struggle with the attractive men that all women struggle with.

[–]okuli4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Look up "alpha widow", it's a thing. I've seen many women who would complain that they would rather stay single than date those men they meet on their dates. Obviously, they have inflated self-worth.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19931 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

ofc, women arent males. we will not settle for less; having friends and family is enough when no worthy males are around.

that doesnt mean we have an inflated ego; it means we have a strong ego that no lesser male can crush with his attempt to demean us.

[–]Emervila0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

the hamster can't just simply get 20% of men population can't and won't handle almost 80% of women.. just not possible

[–]amendment641 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's simply standards(though unlike some here, I would argue high standards are a good thing). These are high value women, therefore it is in their I interest to choose high value men. This desired group(high value men) is rarer and more desirable than the rest of the pack, so they are both harder to find and harder to attract. I know a woman in her 40s, a wealthy nurse currently working on her PhD. She's very driven, knows what she wants, and is willing to remain single forever if she doesn't find the right person. It doesn't stop her from talking about her bad dates and complaining about dating life. It's natural, and her mentality is both reasonable and imo most appropriate to her overall happiness. It's an encouraging look at how a person can truly live for themselves as opposed to the idea that someone is only complete when they have another person in their life.

[–]rxbDJ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well of course you can feel complete when alone if that’s what you actually want 😑

I can reach bliss wherever I am but the desires and passions don’t die just because I can feel good all the time when alone, sometimes I just need a witness

Spending several months or years alone without someone to be there and experience all the beauty of being; well it all starts to feel like a dream even the best moments alone

Good for her though

[–]NeedingAdvice860 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think I spot the issue right on top.....

Nurses\Real Estate maidens are two the biggest gold digging group of women that you will ever run across and there is a vast circumstances of wildly overinflated expectations of bagging the millionaire Chad surgeon\specialist that causes the panties of every girl in the hospital to melt as soon as he comes strutting down the food court. But there aren't many of those HB10 dudes to go around and sorry but the last thing that most of those dudes want is a nurse or other hospital personnel for a LTR. Real estat-ettes are also looking for the hot developer with the million dollar portfolio or nothing.

Invariably in recent months had two separate occasions at events when one of the first or second question from a couple of girls was "where were do work"...suggested immediately they were nurses and my guess was correct.

Too high expectations....

[–]ontheavenue12321 points22 points  (42 children) | Copy Link

I’m a woman and I’ve been single and dating for a couple of years since my last relationship ended. Dating is easy but I am very focused on finding a life partner and that is extremely difficult. My impression often is that men have such low standards for women and they make that known and that is such a turn off. What I mean is that more and more I get this sense that many men are looking for an attractive, fun, nice, decently smart woman... and that’s it. They ask me enough questions to check off those boxes and once those boxes are checked off thy don’t seem very interested in me as a person past that. I have been on SO many dates in which we will have a normal back and forth conversation for about 10 minutes and then the man stops asking me questions about myself and stops trying to get to know me and then talks and talks and talks about himself for the next hour or two, like he’s trying to sell himself.

I am not remotely interested in going on dates with someone who has told me minuscule details about themselves but who has not cared to ask me questions or get to know me beyond the surface level. It is extremely tough, IMO, to find men that fulfill all my boxes and who are interested in a woman as a partner and not just someone nice to make them feel or look good.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing16 points17 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

A lot of men have horrible social skills and social awareness so they do not know how to have normal conversations or ask open ended questions. If they talk about themselves they are actually not trying to sell themselves, they just have no idea what they are doing. Plus, many of them are looking for a woman that fits their external needs ie hot enough, dresses nice, whatever and they really do not care about you as a person because it does not occur to them to do so. A good sales person does the exact opposite of what you are describing, they evaluate what you want/desire based on what you say about yourself, then create some connection based on common ground to reel you in. It sounds like many dudes need some ground in basic sales technique. Men care about how you look primarily and then whether you are a person or not later on, even then not so much, they care about you as a person in relation to what they want.

[–]ontheavenue1238 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This has been my experience many times over. It is important to me to be with someone who has high levels of social and emotional intelligence. I also want someone who has a strong vision for their life and their place in the world and who is thoughtful about finding the right partner to go through that journey with them, just as I have a strong vision for my life and am thoughtful and particular about finding the right partner to go through that journey with me. Someone who primarily talks about themself and who doesn’t ask thoughtful questions about me sends the signal that nearly anyone, as long as she is pretty, nice, and fun, is good enough for them.

The men I am looking for do exist, though they are hard to find.

[–]AzzmoRed5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Aloofness and being perceived as confident/narcissistic were rewarded by the majority of females in my high school and college dating scenes. I think that many men learn those rules and never adjust. The things you want in a man would have gotten most young men friend zoned. We, as a society, should have a more open and honest dialogue about how we adjust to the other gender's expectations and about how those expectations change later in life.

Another angle to view it from: you said in a post that you focus on being warm and engaging. I think that is excellent and will eventually find you the right man but it is also somewhat unusual. When you hit someone with a wave of charisma when they are used to dating stumps they may be prone to gushing. Positive female energy is intoxicating and rare and will catch men off guard.

[–]ontheavenue1232 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate your comment; it’s definitely given me some things to think about. I try to be very positive about my dating life and I truly appreciate all the men who have chosen to spend hours of their life with me. I’m always aware that these men could have spent their evenings with their families, friends, or engaging in activities that they enjoy, but instead they chose to spend that time with me. I want my dates to feel like I value and appreciate them, and I feel like a large part of showing that is taking a strong interest in who they are and what they care about. As I’ve said, it’s been frustrating and confusing for me that a lot of men I go out with don’t seem to want to show that same appreciation and interest in me as a person, beyond pretty surface level things. I really hadn’t given much thought to the perceptions men may have of how they should act on a date or what they think I may want from them, so I really appreciate you pointing me down that line of thought.

[–]AzzmoRed2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You're operating on a level that we should all be operating on but, like public schools, lessons of love are aimed for the lowest common denominator. Thus the people caught up in that regressive culture behave a bit more trailer park and a bit less Utopian.

I'd bet that some of your past dates had the potential to be real partners but the trailer parkification of society has them thinking "wow she's totally digging everything I say and I love the feeling of an attractive female engaging and responding with positivity so...I'll talk more!" Perhaps you can subtly cue them in to the truth that they will not disqualify themselves if they care about you.

What might work on me would be you ask/telling: "do you think the friend zone is real?" and eventually slip in that your best relationships started out reminiscent of friendships. Or talk about how you've always enjoyed a deeper connection in relationships, especially when you can sense that it's synergistic. Obviously this won't work for every guy who is looking to make penis wet but it will invite the good ones.

[–]ontheavenue1231 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I just wanted to come back a few weeks later and thank you again for your comments. I went out with a guy on a first date a couple weeks ago after having this discussion; I kept your comments and advice at the forefront of my mind and I think it really helped me consider what the dating experience is like from his perspective and how that may be affecting his interactions with me. Thanks again!

[–]AzzmoRed0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's gratifying to hear that. Thanks for letting me know.

[–]squiddy_s550gtwhy so butthurt?0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hmm, why is it only the men who have to sell themselves? If the goal is a mutually beneficial relationship then maybe the female needs to be somewhat interesting herself?

Girls can be boring and awkward too. Probably why aggressive girls are the ones who get what they want.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have never dated women so I will take your word for it. I was not making a menz more boring than laydee people arguement just reflecting on a common laydee person experience.

[–]reluctantly_red13 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

men are looking for an attractive, fun, nice, decently smart woman... and that’s it.

Isn't that enough -- they just excluded 90% of the female population.

[–]ontheavenue1237 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I feel like men should also care about their potential partner’s values, sense of self, ambitions, motivations, ways of conceptualizing their place in the world, social and emotional intelligence, sense of humor, civic engagement, etc. Women bring so much more to the table as a romantic partner than just being attractive, fun, nice, and decently smart. I want someone who really understands who I am as a person and is thoughtful and intentional as to whether I would be a good partner for them. Someone who puts minimal effort and only get to know me on a surface level is not the right person for me.

I’ll also add that this is something I’ve talked about with several of my single female friends and it’s something I think a lot of women in my age group experience.

[–]MakeMoneyNotWar4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like men should also care about their potential partner’s values, sense of self, ambitions, motivations, ways of conceptualizing their place in the world, social and emotional intelligence, sense of humor, civic engagement, etc.

How would you really get to know all that within 1-3 dates?

[–]diffdedbedGreen Eyed Devil3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I knew my wife's name, her major, and home town before we were making out.

I don't care about anything beyond seeming a nice and good looking person date one. I'll find out all the other stuff while dating. All she could do is talk me out of it (which is what these guys are doing).

I don't want your lifes manifesto, half of it is going to be half truths anyways. My wife (later) told me she was religious, she was even attending Church in college while we were dating (which was true). It was also a lie, she wasn't really religious (thank FSM) but felt she should be. You learn the truth only over time.

Telling me how much you love the environment means nothing, watching you throw trash out a car window will tell me everything there.

[–]mathlel 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Could it be that you inspire that behaviour in them?

[–]ontheavenue1232 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This could be true, and is something I’ve thought about. I’m a social worker and talking to people and getting them to open up to me is my literal job, and something that’s so ingrained in me that I do not turn it off. When I go on a date I try to put the guy at ease (because people get nervous on first dates) and I focus on being as warm and engaging as possible. I make sure I ask questions, ask follow up questions to their answers, and engage in active listening. People want to feel like their thoughts and feelings are respected and that what they value is also valued. So yes, I do think I allow for a platform for the man to talk a lot.

However- I fully expect the man to also engage in active listening, be warm and engaging, and show a lot of interest in me by also asking questions and getting to know me. As I said earlier, these men do exist. They are hard to find but they do exist.

[–]goldmedalflower[🍰] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My impressions often is that men have such low standards for women and they make that known and that is such a turn off.

Do you feel that the criticism that your standards are too high or unrealistic is valid?

These guys are trying to impress you by talking about themselves. Of course, they should be asking about you too, but in the very beginning, it seems like you're putting them in a job interview audition and perhaps won't give them a chance if they don't pass the audition.

[–]bd315 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A person is greater than the sum of their parts. An attractive, fun, nice, smart person is a good start. How many "boxes" does one need?

Intimacy requires vulnerability, and people are more willing to open up and be open to those who aren't scrutinizing them looking for pink or red flags. It is fine to have reasonable standards, and look out for flagrant red flags, but having a long checklist is a pretty large red flag in itself, in my opinion.

[–]chaddad90006 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Interesting, curious how old you & the guys you are dating are.

When I was single, I went on a few 'job interview' type internet dates where it seemed like I was expected to pitch myself and what a great partner betamale I would be. No fun allowed, it seemed like a personal connection was not what they were looking for. These women were in their early 30s and obviously husband hunting. And these other girls were young and fun and I could groove with them, so...

[–]ontheavenue1234 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I am 30 years old and I date men who are usually within the age ranges of 27-35. I am not husband hunting but I am not looking for a boyfriend for a few years; I am very proud of the life I have built for myself but I do want a life partner because I believe love and support from others (whether family, friends, romantic partners, etc) is the key to elevating a good life into a life that can withstanding anything. I’m looking for a very deep love and from years of relationship experience I’ve learned I need someone whose values align closely with mine to be able to fall in love like that. Someone who gives off the impression that they are mostly interested in me for external factors and isn’t interested in knowing my goals, dreams, how I think, what motivates me, etc does not share my values.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Someone who gives off the impression that they are mostly interested in me for external factors and isn’t interested in knowing my goals, dreams, how I think, what motivates me, etc does not share my values.

Are you expecting all of this on a first date?

[–]ontheavenue1231 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m expecting them to show intellectual curiosity on a first date as to who I am. So for example, if they ask what I do for a living I expect them to follow up with a question along the lines of “what made you want to get into that?” or “What are your favorite things about that role?” Some men ask questions like that, many men don’t.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah it’s exactly the same with genders swapped tbh. I’ve encountered a huge majority of women where the same shit happens.

“Good conversationalist” is a talent few people have. It’s not an indication of disinterest most of the time. The key is not holding that against them.

[–]bd310 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This sounds like the key value is what one can take from others, than what one would give.

[–]TissueReligion1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m a woman and I’ve been single and dating for a couple of years since my last relationship ended. Dating is easy but I am very focused on finding a life partner and that is extremely difficult. My impression often is that men have such low standards for women and they make that known and that is such a turn off. What I mean is that more and more I get this sense that many men are looking for an attractive, fun, nice, decently smart woman... and that’s it. They ask me enough questions to check off those boxes and once those boxes are checked off thy don’t seem very interested in me as a person past that.

As a guy, I think your perception here is 100% spot on. I think most men just aren’t... wired...? to care about women’s personalities beyond the basic “attractive / nice / moderately similar enough background to maintain conversation” trifecta. Whether she’s funny, passionate about something, etc etc. just doesn’t register at all to most guys.

[–]J_Milton_JrDon't open 'til doomsday...♥3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

finding a life partner and that is extremely difficult

actually, its not...your standards are just to high....not even kidding, if you cant attract what you think you deserve, you dont deserve what you think you're deserving

[–]ontheavenue1238 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Really? You think I have high standards because I want to date people who are genuinely interested in getting to know me as a person? I really don’t have anything else to say about that.

[–]J_Milton_JrDon't open 'til doomsday...♥2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

why do you think they are not interested in you? they do ask you questions, dont they? o.O

[–]WhisperTotally LARPing. Really.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My impression often is that men have such low standards for women and they make that known and that is such a turn off.

...

I have been on SO many dates in which we will have a normal back and forth conversation for about 10 minutes and then the man stops asking me questions about myself and stops trying to get to know me and then talks and talks and talks about himself for the next hour or two, like he’s trying to sell himself.

I think the turnoff for you here is better described as "lack of confidence".

[–]goldmedalflower[🍰] 35 points36 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I doubt this is true for any normie 4+/10 female who puts themselves out there. To the few that do struggle, it's overwhelmingly related to them holding out for unrealistic standards, i.e. self-limiting

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lots of 4+/10 normie girls with unrealistic standards

[–]chaddad90002 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

IMO dating pretty much sucks for everyone involved, and eventually people just get worn down by the process. That attractive women can get an infinite number of matches on the internet actually makes it an even bigger PITA from their perspective.

[–]ChewedandDigested-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Do you so lack empathy that you couldn’t see how a thing could be difficult for someone else just because they don’t have the same set of struggles that you do?

[–]adool7771 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

OK, please tell us what kind of struggles they face?

[–]ChewedandDigested4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Going to meet strange men can be dangerous, even in a day lit public setting. Online dating means half the messages you do get are explicit messages. It’s so hard to find men who are on the same page as you. And many are willing to lie about that just to get in your pants. Or if you just want something casual they often get upset when they realize you meant it. Even beyond lying about what they want, you end up with a parade of men who waste your time. Or men who pretend to be upstanding people but are actually covering up how shitty they are. And it can go on and on and on and be incredibly exhausting. Just because most woman can get dates doesn’t mean they have success or even have it quickly. Many have bad experiences altogether. For example, I’ve been stalked when I ended something.

It’s foolhardy to dismiss off hand other people’s struggles because they’re not like yours.

[–]adool7771 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough. I guess screening partners before meeting them and during the first few dates is very important for women.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (265 children) | Copy Link

They aren't just looking to have sex (unlike men), they are looking for relationships. If they wanted cock they could fall on it. Connection and commitment are entirely different beasts to wrangle in terms of difficulty.

[–]douchebag_throwaway386 points87 points  (197 children) | Copy Link

There are PLENTY of men that would love nothing more than to have a relationship with a woman.

This idea that all men only want sex needs to die in a fire.

[–]Ultramegasaurus62 points63 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Those men aren't attractive enough. Women only see the hot dudes and they mostly want casual sex or are already taken.

[–]douchebag_throwaway316 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right.

[–]frootloopzs11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For me, being physically unattractive isn’t a big deal at all. A lack of communication and social skills is really the biggest dealbreaker.

[–]diffdedbedGreen Eyed Devil-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Those men aren't attractive enough.

This is simply not true, like at all.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

what do you think the FEMALE experience of dating men is?

[–]GradualDecomp32 points33 points  (52 children) | Copy Link

This idea that all men only want sex needs to die in a fire.

TRP and the manosphere certainly aren't helping with that

[–]bonusfruit27 points28 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Even trp guys have to train themselves to stop seeking relationships, often unsuccessfully. This is why there is so much 'kill the beta' and 'don't fall into ltr, spin plates instead' rhetoric. Trp men want relationships and try to kill the desire for one

[–]reluctantly_red6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Even trp guys have to train themselves to stop seeking relationships, often unsuccessfully.

Its important to appear desireless (at least at first). Women always seem to want what it appears they cannot have (strange but true).

[–]sketch16200011 points12 points  (37 children) | Copy Link

Women are the choosers. TRP and the manosphere have little power to change anything, so they can only try help men to be successful under the current paradigm.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (36 children) | Copy Link

But only a minority of women want casual sex and casual sex is the goal of TRP. Really if they wanted to just play the game with the highest odds they'd promote LTRs because most women want those. But they don't, they just wanna get laid as much as possible without a relationship.

Not saying there is anything wrong with this, but to then turn around and say "damn this idea that men only want sex!" is ironic.

[–]sketch1620004 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Not saying there is anything wrong with this, but to then turn around and say "damn this idea that men only want sex!" is ironic.

The ironic thing is that women tend to select for the characteristics of men that are capable of having a lot of casual sex. A woman wants a man that could have any woman but chooses to be with her. What RP target men eventually figure out is that acting too much like a hopelessly romantic and commitment oriented man actually hurts your chances initially.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

What even RP admits is that you ideally want a combination of alpha and beta traits in a relationship. Which is correct.

The issue the guys you're describing have is too many beta traits, not enough alpha traits.

You can be relationship orientated without being overly beta though.

[–]sketch1620000 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Right. So given the type of man RP targets, if RP were to focus on LTR development, at best they'd be preaching to a choir of already overly beta men at best or they'd be actively encouraging men further away from a decent balance of alpha and beta.

Just like the blue pill.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think it's perfectly possible to encourage a healthy mix of alpha and beta without following TRP's views.

[–]sketch1620001 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Honestly, I doubt it. No one has come up with an effective alternative in history that hasn't boiled down to a lot of the things the manosphere is observing.

It's a toolbox and also can be prone to quite a bit of an exaggeration. But anyone who needs this stuff is off kilter in the first place.

[–]Bntt890 points1 point  (27 children) | Copy Link

Because they see no real reason to want LTR? There is no real benefit to it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (26 children) | Copy Link

Well that's subjective. But you can think that if you want sure. It's still ironic to complain when the same guys then complain about being perceived as only wanting sex lol.

[–]Bntt890 points1 point  (25 children) | Copy Link

Just like being in a relationship is better is subjective? And in truth men get the most value from sex. The most value a guy can get is for the women giving him a child, second is pleasure. And having a child now has been used by the worst of women to fuck guys over. Which really suck out all the pleasure from having kids. The more funny thing is the fact that women think they provide more value then then they really produce in relationships. But hey it’s all subjective right.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (24 children) | Copy Link

Just like being in a relationship is better is subjective?

Of course. Believing relationships are better is subjective.

The most value a guy can get is for the women giving him a child, second is pleasure.

Again subjective. Most men out in the real world enjoy having company of women in a relationship. Which is why most men are in LTR's.

And if you ask me I'd hate to have a child. Yuck.

[–]Bntt890 points1 point  (23 children) | Copy Link

Well none of what you say matters cuz it’s subjective. See how vacuous that reasoning is? There is a reason you express your opinion.

[–]douchebag_throwaway325 points26 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

TRP, yes.

The manosphere is more concerned with men's rights being trampled all over the place than getting sex.

[–]billybones110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The manosphere is more concerned with men's rights being trampled all over the place than getting sex.

The two are very much connected. Sex is a right, for one.

[–]analt223No Pill3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

FOR THE LAST TIME:

The red pill is a coping mechanism. These are people who all want the happy home life and long term relationships. They became bitter when they realized they arent attractive

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

But it's easier to find women who want relationships than it is to find ones who want casual sex, and those women are in high demand so there's more competition... if they've realised they are not attractive as you say, why are they playing the game in hard mode?

[–]crackrocksteady7buying gf1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

if youre not hot enough for casual sex youll never have a relationship. nobody goes meeting someone -> vetting -> dating -> fucking anymore

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

if youre not hot enough for casual sex youll never have a relationship.

This is just blatantly untrue though... many more men are in relationships than men who sleep around constantly.

[–]analt223No Pill0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Because they are bitter. And women who want relationships want relationships with the ones who have options. Not some loser

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

And women who want relationships want relationships with the ones who have options. Not some loser

Same goes for the ones who want casual sex tho.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (126 children) | Copy Link

I want you to go to r/MRP and tell me right now that all those men want is a good loving relationship. Wanna know WHY women are the gatekeepers of sex? BECAUSE MEN WANT IT SO DAMN BADLY.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't deny that men are thirsty, but of the men I've hooked up with, there were a fair portion that wanted a relationship with me and were genuinely disappointed that I only wanted casual sex and didn't want a relationship with them.

Just because men are more thirsty than women doesn't mean men don't want relationships as much as women do. It's not contradictory to want a relationship but also be much more willing the engage in casual sex. It's often a "I'll take what I can get" kind of proposition for them.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

they don't want relationships as much as women do. You seem to be assuming your exceptions make the rule.

[–]atm487Purple Pill Man, Leaning Blue1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be assuming MRP (and their entire group) is the rule, rather than exceptions.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

When you've lived with and dated men for years, then we'll talk.

[–]atm487Purple Pill Man, Leaning Blue0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've dated men for 3 years as a guy. Stop using anecdotal evidence. You're contradicting your own statements of "exceptions arent the rule" and your rebuttal is "well, uh, ive experienced it, sooo". Data isnt the plural of anecdote.

[–]douchebag_throwaway322 points23 points  (94 children) | Copy Link

You're joking right??

That's EXACTLY what men at MRP want.

Yes, they want sex too, but what is wrong with that?? If you're married, shouldn't there be SOME expectation of the possibility of SOME sex in your marriage??

That's a far cry from "Men only want sex"

Edit: The other part you are missing is that sex is a necessary part of intimacy for men. Women usually get their intimacy from other ways, but men largely get it from sex.

MEN JUST WANT SEX ALL THE TIME is awfully reductive. Men want intimacy, which they get through sex.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What do you think the FEMALE experience of men is?

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (88 children) | Copy Link

Are you high? If so, it must be good shit.

The men are MRP are prepared to leave their wives (or more often, forever girlfriends) because they aren't getting pornstar sex.

Secondly, men are the PRIMARY pursuers of casual sex. This idea that men are just good boiz looking for tummy rubs is completely and utterly removed from reality.

All humans have a baseline desire for human connection, but that is much higher in WOMEN because women are more social and agreeable than men are. As such, women are the PRIMARY pursuers of commitment, and men are the gatekeepers to commitment.

This is RP 101. Read your fucking siderbar.

[–]douchebag_throwaway310 points11 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Ok, yes, you're right about the MRP loudmouths and their obsession with pornstar sex. It's weird to me, tbh.

I don't know that the average guy that stumbles across MRP agrees with these obsessions. Most of them are just looking you get an active sex life from their wives. Wanting sex from your wife doesn't mean all you care about is sex.

Yes, women are the primary seekers of relationships, but I think most men are perfectly happy to be in a relationship. There are a few alphas that shun them, but other than that, men want to be in a relationship as much as women.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (23 children) | Copy Link

See my edit.

[–]douchebag_throwaway38 points9 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

You've made me question the whole idea of "men are the gatekeepers of relationships".

If that's true, then why is it that men who can't find love despise women, kill themselves and go on shooting rampages while women seem perfectly content to get a few cats and live alone?

It seems like women are gate keeping relationships as well.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

It seems like women are gate keeping relationships as well.

But it is BP idea!(/s)

[–]TheReformist940 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

Women are the gatekeepers of relationships. It's men who want monogamy not women. They want the CC and a rotating harem of alphas

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

men who can't find love despise women, kill themselves and go on shooting rampages

That's a tiny tiny minority though let's face it. Most men who have a dry spell don't start hating women and going on shooting sprees. Incels do not reflect all lonely men.

[–]douchebag_throwaway31 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

True, but men seem to take lonliness a LOT harder than women do.

[–]SeemedGood12 points13 points  (55 children) | Copy Link

The men are MRP are prepared to leave their wives (or more often, forever girlfriends) because they aren't getting pornstar sex.

Nope. We want to leave our wives when we realize that our wives don’t love us. Once we figure out that women’s libido is just as strong as ours for the few men to whom they are actually sexually attracted, then if they don’t have a high libido for us it’s a clear sign that they’re not actually sexually attracted to us and we’ve become (or always were) nothing more than their relationship object.

Women treat their sex objects relatively well and their relationship objects like fresh shite. No one wants to be that guy.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (14 children) | Copy Link

wives don't love us

You mean when your projected assumption of how women love doesn't actually pan out because men are different from women?

Once we figure out that women’s libido is just as strong as ours

Women's libido is never as strong or the same visually as male libido because it is REACTIVE. If she isn't into you it's because you aren't TURNING HER ON.

[–]SeemedGood1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You mean when your projected assumption of how women love doesn't actually pan out because men are different from women?

Yes, except that I wouldn’t call the appreciation of another for his utility to oneself actual love.

I don’t actually love my Zenith watch, Porsche car, MacBook Pro laptop, or Moto Guzzi motorcycle. Rather, I appreciate all those things for the utility which they provide me. In your language, my appreciation for them is reactive to the utility which they provide me, not endemic to their being. The minute any of them fail to provide that utility, or better versions of those objects which might provide more utility become affordably available to me, I’ll ditch those objects and roll with the new-new hotness.

Unlike those objects, I appreciate my wife for her being, not for her utility to me. I am no less sexually attracted to her because she is no longer able to bear children, or because her hair is turning grey, or because she’s developed crows feet around her eyes, or because her body has grown from a lithe 120lbs to a plump 155lbs over the years. I am as sexually attracted to her now as I ever was because she is not (nor has ever been) an object from which I expect a certain utility to which I then react with sexual desire. Rather, I actually love and actively desire to be with her for her being.

Women's libido is never as strong or the same visually as male libido...

This has not been my experience. Throughout my post-pubescent life women seem to have had a very strong and active libido for a very small set of men that is almost entirely visually based.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You just described how men at MRP want to leave their wives because she’s no longer giving you sex. And then state that you don’t love her for her utility. Lol what do you think sex is?

If you loved your wife and would stay with her whether or not she gave you sex, then you can claim to love her for her and not for what she provides. But wanting to leave because she’s no longer giving you sex means that your love for her is because of the sex she provides. Your love for her, is in fact reactive to the sex she gives you.

[–]SeemedGood0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nope.

Would be different if the wife was incapable of sexual intimacy.

Sex is the physical representation of the metaphysical act of merging. Sexual desire is the physical representation of the metaphysical desire to merge with another.

Lack of sexual desire is not incapacity. Rather, lack of desire signals that the partner (man or woman) also lacks the metaphysical desire to merge with the other, with whom he or she is in an intimate relationship. Yet that person’s desire to merge with someone still likely exists.

Why be in a relationship in which you want to merge with your wife, but she doesn’t want to merge with you and likely wants to merge with someone else?

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Women's libido is never as strong or the same visually as male libido because it is REACTIVE.

I call B.S. on this one. My vibrator has never once seduced me ...

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

Masturbation is not the same thing as libido.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

It is the desire for an orgasm, right? Men think it's a lot more complicated than it is. Why do some married women prefer their vibrator to their husband? They're guaranteed to get off every time. As a side benefit, their sex toy won't mess up their hair or leave their crotch sticky. Magic Wand for the win!

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷7 points8 points  (36 children) | Copy Link

Or a clear sign you’re* not doing the job in the bedroom.

*figurative you

[–]SeemedGood8 points9 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough, but I find that the large part of that assessment of your job in the bedroom has to do with whether or not she finds you actively sexually attractive or relationship attractive. If you’re viewed as a relationship object your assessment is going to be tougher.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷6 points7 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Oh right, we’re back to “women never are never attracted to their husbands” again.

[–]SeemedGood8 points9 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I never said that. But women do tend to have dichotomous attraction cues that often contradict each other on a subconscious level, sexual and relationship.

For women that have not been introspective enough to master their own subconscious and innate dichotomous hypergamy being the relationship guy tends to make you less sexually attractive.

[–]TheReformist941 point2 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Typical. Ignoring facts and the Pareto . It's always the men's fault.

Just admit mathematically most women aren't attracted to most men.

I've never had this lack of sex issue when I am with a woman because I only date ones who are heavily attracted to me.

I either get told to fuck off from the get go, or get with girls where sex just happens

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷3 points4 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

We’re talking about marriage.

Next time read the comment before you go ape shit.

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Wives can't lose attraction to their husbands?

[–]TheReformist940 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Got nothing to do with marriage. Most women are not attracted to their husbands.

[–]billybones110 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sex is mostly physical attraction. What gets women off is a handsome face and masculine traits.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Now you’re all just trolling me

[–]billybones110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What else would get women off?

"doing the job" = being attractive, mostly.

[–]TheReformist944 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I love how the women on this sub like to ignore this fact and the RPers like to think it's because women have less testosterone.😂 I actually can't keep up with the few women who are attracted to me. Insatiable

[–]whyisthisallowed10 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Man you're so cool bro I wanna be just like you! Wowzie

[–]TheReformist940 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Irrelevant as hominem. You're not being any value to the thread mate

[–]rxbDJ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It could definitely be possible that people with specific sexual obsessions stemming from porn abuse would pile into TRP

Their brains are hurting and I feel bad for em cus life is gonna suck for a long time, anyway that’s what RP gets for selling the “neutral tool for getting things out of women” vp

[–]TheReformist940 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Women are the drivers of hookup culture because women want sex and not be trapped in a relationship.

You set the price for sex and your constant push for new partners, the CC, and relentless trade up force us to run harems and pump and dump you

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women are the drivers of hookup culture because women want sex and not be trapped in a relationship.

Who invented the birth control pill?

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

planned parenthood and one rich woman funded the research into the pill or it wouldnt have happened

[–]TheReformist940 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men for women's benefit

[–]choseyourpoison0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damnit, I should've read this before responding...lol

[–]earlpfeiffer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Spot on

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What MRPs want is some fantasy 1950s “captain-first mate” marriage.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, when a MRPer advises another MRPer to 'dread' his wife because "anxiety makes their cooters moist," he's really just seeking intimacy, right? /s

[–]choseyourpoison4 points5 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I've kind of read back and forth between you and douchebag_throwaway3 and I want to bridge a portion of the argument I think may be missing.

So, let me start by saying I'm no expert with men and male sexuality as I am a lesbian and haven't had much experience in that particular arena. However; I've come across a couple of candid conversations and have even asked about it and, to some degree, men seem to interpret sex as a form of intimacy. The kind of warmth I feel when I'm being held and "protected" per se, I think to some degree, men feel that same sense of connection with sex. I've seen men advise women that to show their husbands they love them, they should have sex with them often and I've read stories were men seem to usually reach an understanding about just how much they love or are in love with their girlfriends/wives during sex.

I think, and this is all conjecture, that men find human connection or bonding in sex whereas women may be more likely to see sex as more of an extension of bonding that may or may not be based in that experience.

If my loose and unresearched theory is correct, I think this may be causing alot of problems between men and women. If I love you, I can really care less how often we have sex if I'm being satisfied emotionally. I think it's different for men. I think, also, both men and women may misunderstand casual sex or promiscuity in men as something just superficial and a bit of an ego feeder but, I would bet that if candid emotional connections are limited, sex can be useful; giving the opportunity for that connection and having that vulnerability, a little at a time. I'm single and I'd certainly take a multi stranger spooning to ease the loneliness. Maybe, this is the same as far as sex for men is concerned.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (11 children) | Copy Link

There isn't anything I'm missing. What is not true is men AT LARGE wanting relationships just as much as they want sex. He is stating that, and it is false.

[–]choseyourpoison5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Hmm... I don't think I necessarily disagree with him. All of my male acquaintances are in or are seeking long term relationships. You and I both may be pocketed in subsocieties where one type of people are more prominent than the other.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (9 children) | Copy Link

Guess where the most sex is had? LTRs. That doesn't mean men want the snuggles just as much, it means they want consistent and steady sex and she isn't too annoying to dump / murder.

[–]choseyourpoison0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Lol...ltr is not synonymous with consistent sex and sex may be, for many men, what snuggles is for you and I. I can't necessarily speak for all men but, I do try and understand what some of them may be saying. I thought I might be able to bridge a nuance that may have been overlooked.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't really understand why a lesbian would have insight into men, you don't have to live with or fuck them.

[–]douchebag_throwaway31 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Her insight was on point. Especially the part about men gaining intimacy though sex and women seeing it as an extension of intimacy.

[–]BilboBagginhole1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Which probably means her observations are less clouded by emotions.

[–]choseyourpoison0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My best friend is a man and most of the people with whom I have to build and stabilize my life with are men. In fact, I find that I'm more bonded with men than women. I don't know that we are all that similar but, I do find that common behavioral components in my male counterparts give me a sense of balance. I love the things about them that are inherently male/masculine (even in the old school non progressive sense). Strangely enough, I have better chemistry with men than I do women. Now, again, this doesn't make me an expert on the subject and most men don't even share things with me that they'd open up to other lesbians about but...lol...usually, if a guy is arguing his experience as a man...chances are he's not just pulling your leg. Usually.

Yes. I am surrounded by men. Lol...i have to interact with them and I love most of them. I also love to interact with women, too...so...lol...find me on POF and let's have a conversation about sex and intimacy.

[–]douchebag_throwaway30 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thank you!

That was very well said and I totally agree with it.

[–]choseyourpoison0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No problem, sir.

[–]brodudedoggman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are correct.

[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

They've learned the lesson.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

That women aren't as sexual as men? It was blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes.

[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

No, that women don't love men in the way male romantics want to be loved. So they shift priorities. They learn being a "nice guy" isn't a good MO from the male perspective.

Also, tingles uber alles, so it generally helps the relationship too.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

Okay is there a point to this?

[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Your observation of MRP is a reaction to female nature.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, I know. I have no problem with it, it's not my life or my relationship.

[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

👌🏻

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Problem is the majority of men want think they want commitment, but really it’s their only option. It’s like a declawed cat not scratching you - it has no choice

The men that can get casual sex but want commitment are the men that women are after

[–]boomcheese440 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The men that can get casual sex but want commitment are the men that women are after

Right, and there are not a ton of those, it's more of an issue of scarcity instead of women punching above their league. I don't why they say this. If a Chad is content with his ONS, he's not going to suddenly change if the perfect 10 comes along. Or he will commit and cheat on her.

[–]rhyth70 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They seem to want a relationship, any relationship with any one. Women want to feel like the man knows them and is interested in them as a person and not just a placeholder.

[–]Emervila0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

those men for they are ugly or poor = beta, they want just super mega alpha

[–]efkayfake0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Being in a good relationship with a woman needs to die in a fire. Why would I ever want to be in a relationship with a woman? In no way is that going to help my life. I do whatever I want whenever I want. I'm always right in my own home. I don't answer to anybody. I have no nagging no compromise. No worries about lies and deceit. There is only one thing I need from a woman. Zero tolerance policy for relationships and bull shit in my life. I'm happy as can be. I would encourage every man to adopt this mindset. Tons of ladies to choose from out there boys. It's time we wake up and be free.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you an introvert? I think most people also date because they like the company. Having someone around to snuggle with and go out with and make dinner with and shit. Definitely not for everyone, but a lonely man who wants a girlfriend to share his life with isn’t able to appreciate solitude. They also want to be loved, or in the very least liked by someone they like in return

[–]efkayfake0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you need validation from another individual to be happy and feel "of value" there are underlying mental disorders that need to be addressed prior to engaging in a relationship. I'm a very social individual. I have learned to be happy by myself when I desire solitude and when I want social interaction I go out and enjoy being social. When I want to get laid then I go do that. There is this idea that relationships make life better. My experience does not support that ideal.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure and that’s great you’ve found what works for you. I’m an introvert, too, so I feel you - I live in a cabin in the mountains and have a very serene life. But humans are social creatures by design. It’s not a mental disorder to like/prefer sharing your life with someone. It’s just not what you personally want. Everyone is kinda just responsible for finding what works for them. (Most people just kinda suck at this or don’t know what they want, so they base their lives off what they see other people pursuing. This is when people make mistakes.)

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ15 points16 points  (47 children) | Copy Link

Except women are having an easier time with commitment as well.

The real answer is more that they cannot get valuable men who are committing. The problem is their standards and lack of compromising.

[–]sketch16200015 points16 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Except women are having an easier time with commitment as well.

One of the things that irks me about blues (and some reds) on this sub is how people talk about casual sex and LTR like it's a completely different process. Like, no, they basically involve most of the exact same shit just with different intentions. It's some kind of zero sum situation where women have an easier time with casual sex but men have an easier time with commitments. Women just have it easier in most things dating full stop.

[–]billybones112 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One of the things that irks me about blues (and some reds) on this sub is how people talk about casual sex and LTR like it's a completely different process.

Yep. If you can get sex, you can get dates, you can get relationships. They're all symbiotic.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷-2 points-1 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

No we don’t and to say the there’s no difference between casual sex and a LTR is ridiculous.

[–]sketch1620009 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What I mean is that the difference is mostly in intention, not in execution. Whether someone wants to get into a LTR or get a hookup they still need to be attractive, social, entertaining etc. on entry. Which is why all these women end up falling for hot players with no interest in settling down and ignoring the commitment minded losers until the biological clock starts ticking down.

In other words, if women are getting more/better opportunities for casual sex (this seems to be the consensus) then they also are probably going to have more/better opportunities for LTR because a lot of those attraction cues are shared. If a man can't attract a hookup to save his life, he's probably also having trouble finding a more serious partner because a lot of those attraction cues are shared. The difference is in what your intentions are and/or what you're willing to tolerate from the other person.

[–]goldmedalflower[🍰] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Analogy time:

It's like two people are trying to find a full-time job. They visit employer after employer who tells them they only hire part time employees and then promote them to full time once they've demonstrated they're a good fit.

Male applicants struggle generally. Most aren't called in for an interview and those that are called in don't get hired at nearly the same rate. Most women however, will get hired at almost every interview. "Yeah, but that's not what I want. I wanted a full-time job".

Sure, except now at least she has her foot in the door. She has an opportunity to see if this is the right job for her. Maybe she'll want to get hired on full time, but the employer isn't interested, but at least she got that chance and can take comfort in knowing that the next interview will also give her a chance as well.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which is why all these women end up falling for hot players with no interest in settling down

I don’t even know why I bother with this sub.

[–]rightmeow6 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy Link

like all of my LTRs have started from casual sex/fwb situations, so i'd say the process is very similar.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Meaning you started screwing some guy and discovered he had some good traits for a LTR. That’s luck, my dear. How many of those LTRs worked out for you?

People here seem perplexed as to why their LTRs don’t work out while seemingly being unaware that they’re setting themselves up for failure by thinking they can fuck their way into happily ever after.

Call me old all you want. But when you’ve made a 14 year marriage work based on “the sex was really good so we just decided to commit,” you can come talk to me about it.

[–]rightmeow6 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

That’s luck, my dear. How many of those LTRs worked out for you?

well my first LTR, we started making out at football games in HS and that turned into a 4 year relationship (started dating at 15). my second LTR: he was CLEARLY interested in me (we had a class together in college and he was also a good friend of my roommate) and we started hooking up, then he wanted me to be his girlfriend. 3rd LTR i met on tinder after the previous LTR ended and i would say that was mostly luck; we had amazing sex, i basically stayed with him for the next like 5 days, then dated for 1.5 years.

so i'd say with the first two guys, i did have time to judge their character; they weren't just strangers. the 3rd was luck. idk sexual compatibility is REALLY important to me. i don't see the point in wasting a bunch of time just to find out we aren't sexually compatible.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Picking a long term partner based on sexual compatibility is generally a bad idea. You need sexual compatibility but you also need a hell of a lot more than that.

[–]rightmeow6 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

No shit. Its not like I’d jump into bed with losers who had bad jobs or traits I actively dislike. Even the guy I met on tinder had a good job, we shared similar values and political views, had similar interests and life goals.

I do screen men based on a variety of criteria before having sex with them, I haven’t had sex with that many people in my lifetime, but all my relationships have started off by casually hooking up.

But for me PERSONALLY as a high libido female, sexual compatibility is an incredibly important factor in my relationship satisfaction. I’ve had issues in previous relationships due to mismatched libidos. There was one guy I couldve seen myself dating until we had sex. Idk for me it’s as important as long term goals and values, earning potential, attractiveness.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Fair enough. I don’t think most women and certainly not men are screening their casual sex partners for relationship quality though.

[–]chaddad90004 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Old lady perspective. Young people jump into bed with each other and eventually the guy's balls are empty enough he can think clearly about sticking with her.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mmkay

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (30 children) | Copy Link

And why should women waste their valuable resources (aka their youth and fertility) on unattractive men?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ7 points8 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

They got 3 choices:

  • Go with lesser attractive men, their looksmatch actually, or make other kind of compromises.
  • Actually waste it alone.
  • Keep trying with men that are out of their league and hope for the unicorn to appear.

If they can't get attractive men, why do you think going with lesser attractive men is "wasting" their "valuable resources" that nobody wants but these lesser men? It doesn't make sense to think your product is still more valuable despite nobody else want it.

The question is, can we really say dating is hard for women when all that is blocking them is their unreasonable standards and they refuse to make compromises despite this is what most men and women do?

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (26 children) | Copy Link

The standards aren't unreasonable when they do eventually and inevitably marry and have children. They just seem unreasonable to the men who want to get in and get out before the marriage occurs

[–]Supernumiphone4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The standards aren't unreasonable when they do eventually and inevitably marry and have children.

I've seen many women who gradually (or sometimes quite suddenly) lower their standards as they become more desirous of marriage and especially children. So the fact that they eventually manage to attain these things is not an indication that their standards were reasonable. They could have gotten an earlier start and saved themselves years of loneliness and heartache if they'd set reasonable expectations from the start.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ4 points5 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

How do you know they didn't just compromise? My experience showed me that inexperienced people tend to have harsher standards, meaning that women's standards adapt with negative experiences and rejection. We all know women who never adapt, but eventually all the college and highschool girls I've known ended up in LTR with men far less attractive than the Chads they used to aim for (and then they got ugly, lmao). And no, they didn't aim for casual sex.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (22 children) | Copy Link

I generally see standards go up as they start taking into account their own self worth.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ4 points5 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I can see that being the case for very insecure women who blossomed into being attractive, it's not a big portion of women though.

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (19 children) | Copy Link

Most women are insecure and most men want most women so they are attractive enough to have their self-worth develop

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

How is your self-worth developing when the attention you receive are from disgusting men?

[–]crackrocksteady7buying gf0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The standards aren't unreasonable when they do eventually and inevitably marry and have children

ohhhhh man you need to look at the stats on that and repeat that statement

[–]TheLongerCon5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They shouldn’t. But high standards have their price.

[–]DJDickJob5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You're way off with the part about men only wanting sex. A good relationship was always more important to me, and it seemed the only thing I was going to get from females was sex so I bailed.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

it seemed the only thing I was going to get from females was sex so I bailed.

Where are you getting this idea? Most women are looking for relationships. It's only a minority who look for casual sex and even most women who sleep around would settle down with the right guy.

[–]Anthony18811 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Both men and women are looking for sex and they think relationships are a game...stop treating each other so crappy!

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

they are looking for relationships

Which are as readily available as cock. Just not from the guys whose cock they want.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Yes but they actually want connection and commitment from Chad

[–]LivelyChartreuse 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

You are aware that ugly people have sex everyday right? Gross, enthusiastic sex?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Even old people.

[–] points  (2 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Elderly Chad.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that's gross

[–] points  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But Becky wants Chad's sperm

[–]SavingsTraffic11125 points26 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

That's because they're not looking just for sex, they're looking for relationships. And not just for relationships, but for relationships with men they find attractive (which is a very small minority of men). Your gf's friends feel that competition for men like these is too fierce. No doubt they could easily get boyfriends who are average, but they would rather stay single.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

Yet men are advised by some people here in ppd to pick average chicks... Smh

[–]GridReXXit be like that6 points7 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Because you guys complain about not having sex. If you want sex pick average chicks or quietly drop out over tea with your bestie like these women.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

Same with you women complaining guys do not commit to them. Pick below average men and they sure as hell will commit and be happy. See? I also used "you women" here.

[–]GridReXXit be like that4 points5 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

If you want sex pick average chicks or quietly drop out over tea with your bestie like these women.

The point is these women quietly dropped out. We only know because OP is telling the tale of two friends chatting over wine about how one is going to take a break from dating.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (19 children) | Copy Link

Sweet now you have just ignored what I wrote. Whatever

[–]GridReXXit be like that1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

You wrote:

Yet men are advised by some people here in ppd to pick average chicks... Smh

I replied twice that these women aren’t complaining on forums about it. They’re quietly dropping out. If they were complaining on this forum I would tell them to marry the dude who wants them who they don’t want or be quiet.

Same thing I’m telling you. Fuck the average chick or be quiet. Men are more likely more willing to yield here because their sex drives are stronger. Many women will contently choose being single over being in a relationship where they aren’t attracted to their partner, at least if attraction matters to them.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

I replied twice that these women aren’t complaining on forums about it.

but they do. They drop out only after 40s when the wall hits them with full force.

Look at this self-proclaimed femcel who was constantly posting and making 10 threads each week asking why she can't find a guy. What's her name again? You know her.

Men can't just fuck average chicks at whim, because average chicks (which is half of a female population) have such abnormal high self-worth that average guy doesn't do it to them. Unless he has game and something else to show off.

[–]GridReXXit be like that0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Self proclaimed “femcels” are weird female anomalies. I don’t respect anyone who identifies as “incel” and sure as hell not “femcel” 🤢

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

Then fuck below average chicks just like you advised women to look for commitment with below average men.

If an average man can’t get sex with average women, then it means he’s batting out of his league.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

There are no leagues. Not for men at least.

[–]whyisthisallowed10 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Right. Not literal millions of women o. Reddit on the female forums whining about dating

[–]GridReXXit be like that0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yet men are advised by some people here in ppd to pick average chicks... Smh

He asked why women on PPD suggest he date average. I answered.

If I were on the other female spaces and they were complaining I would tell them:

If they were complaining on this forum I would tell them to marry the dude who wants them who they don’t want or be quiet.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They can't. They're not in the position of choosing. They have to use a scattergun approach to dating and take what they can get. And even then women insist men should continue to lower their standards.

Mostly so Chad lowers his to her level...

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah something like that.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Combination of things

  1. What is desirable to men in a female partner is a cripple to you IRL. Softness, innocence, agreeableness etc. Women are quite literally forced to become more masculine, men don't appreciate these values when assessing them for LTR, and women are confused and hurt by that.

  2. Most men that are above a 6/10 can get casual sex, so they're getting casual sex.

  3. Most men that are attractive, relationship oriented, etc are taken.

[–]Jonmad1716 points17 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Most men that are above a 6/10 can get casual sex, so they're getting casual sex.

Where do you get this notion from? The gini coefficient of tinder is about that of the most unequal countries on Earth. Lots of average-looking guys don't have access to casual sex.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

6 is above average

[–]amendment641 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But still not desirable to average women. imo 8+/10 men are the only one who truly get access to frequent, relatively easy casual sex.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

above a 6/10

He’s talking about above average. 8-10 men can get 5-8 women casually, 7/10 men can get 3-5 casually. Average men have to reallllly dumpster dive for casual

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There's a difference between Tinder and cruising at a bar or having day game. You're not going to bat 1000. Shit you probably won't even bat 500. But there's still a big difference between an internet buffet with every guy and a room with a limited number of dudes.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

  1. That's why nuclear family will vanish. And better it be replaced by neighborhoods rather than single motherhoods.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse6 points7 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

And better it be replaced by neighborhoods rather than single motherhoods.

You mean the societal model that was tried in the past and failed? (Replaced by the extended family model, which was in turn replaced by the currently-failing nuclear family model)

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

We already argued about that. But do you think single motherhood is the future?

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

It become more prevalent until it brings civilization down. Then we'll go back to extended families.

[–]amendment640 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think climate change or nuclear war will bring down civilization MUCH faster than single motherhood lol

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

Why do you think we never will go back to neighborhoods? I am sure family social structure is the result of activity of betas.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Neighborhoods raising kids? That's a world where nobody knows nor cares who the father is. If men were to suddenly lose their sense of pride and go back to that, which is highly unlikely and crucial to such a society, it would collapse just as it did before. And disastrously so.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

It never collapsed by itself. It collapsed because of patriarchy. Which is a beta strategy.

Men will go back to that if that will let then have more sex.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Patriarchy came after all of that. See, back when neighborhoods raised kids, fatherhood didn't matter, there was no monogamy, and here's where shit went wrong - men walked off, having no investment in that neighborhood, and took their labor contribution with them. We're coming back to that now, with all these single mothers who think they don't need men: a rapid rise in the number of male NEETs and a rise in deadweight that is dragging society down. You might also know of them as brain dead gamers, gangsters, yobs, etc. Patriarchy solved all of this in a deeply flawed way.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

men walked off,

Lmao, men are willing to pay for sex. Be that bucks, self-improvement or another kind of investment.

And yeah, men walked off their community into the wild. Yeah, a lone dumb wolf being eaten by a pack of real wolves.

What current society is does not resemble even closely what happened in neighborhoods.

P.S. BTW, women were major contributors in hunter-gatherer society, because 80% of food was plants. It was against men's interest to leave women.

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

There needs to be incentive to go to neighborhoods and communal raising of children, along with connection and community that can't be socially engineered by policy. Otherwise you just have lots of single-mother children with shitty, substandard parenting and the host of shitty outcomes that are very well documented.

Look at any community with a high percentage of out-of-wedlock births and single motherhood...Would you want to raise a kid in that environment?

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

you just have lots of single-mother children

That's what we'll get without neighborhoods. Governments simply will increase taxes for men and will financially support single mothrs instead of alimony system.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most men that are attractive, relationship oriented, etc are taken.

Until they're not.

[–] points  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]planejaneRemove head from sphincter, THEN type.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Are you female? This question is tagged as Q4W.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I keep remembering that your GF wants to get pregnant , I am waiting for the OMG my GF is pregnant thread what do I do?

[–]JokengonzoPurple Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When it happens you will know

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well i can only speak for myself here.For me it's because i have pretty high standards in what i want in a man,but thh i got nothing much to offer back other than my credentials which men don't care about.Everyone i settle for less,i'm always stuck with low class,backward thinking men who only care about pussy period.People will encourage women to lower their standards but sometimes when you lower your standards it just not what you don't just click,once you as a person has elevated yourself,you tend to want someone higher or at the same level with you when it comes to all things about life.I've had to put up with shit from so many men and knowing they unattainable don't want me is just depressing, that I've just given up.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot13 points14 points  (61 children) | Copy Link

its hard for young women who want relationships because young men don't approach dealing with the opposite sex with the goal of a relationship. they mostly are looking for casual sex and if a relationship springs from that great. women just want a relationship.

[–]reluctantly_red6 points7 points  (55 children) | Copy Link

they mostly are looking for casual sex and if a relationship springs from that great.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable strategy. What's wrong with it?

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

who said there was something "wrong" with it, its only bad for young women who want a relationship.

[–]reluctantly_red-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

How is it bad? Casual evolves into LTR. That's just the way the world works. You don't sit down and negotiate a LTR.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

most young men aren't having casual sex to lead to a relationship. they're having casual sex to have casual sex.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Even young guys (i.e. under 25) are pleased when a relationship develops.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

sure, its always nice to find something good when you're not looking for it. but they're not looking for it with most of the girls they want casual sex with.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Nothing wrong with it for guys. She's saying it's a problem for women.

[–]reluctantly_red-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

But why? Seems both genders are similarly situated.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Kandyapplez just explained it. Men and women are seeking different things.

[–]reluctantly_red-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Men and women are seeking different things.

No they're not! Guys want LTRs/marriage just as much as women do.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nope

[–]coratoad0 points1 point  (43 children) | Copy Link

Because each time a woman has sex with a new man her value goes down. Also it takes all the fun out of sex.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope5 points6 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Because each time a woman has sex with a new man her value goes down.

"Women never lie about their N counts."

"Men always ask women about their N counts."

These ideas are ridiculous.

I don't feel like a woman who had 20 partners is a slut. 50+ yes. I highly doubt that out of 20-49 men there were no good partners. And 50+ is a 100% thot.

[–]coratoad7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It only has to be one man from your social circle to make you less attractive to every other man in your social circle. No one wants to wife the girl his buddies already banged.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Like... every buddy banged her? Then probably not. But most men just as women also are pre-selective: if a buddy dumped a girl then she is not OK.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most men are not “pre selective” the girl just looked good to begin with

[–]rus9384Misanthrope3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are positively pre-selective: other women choose the man, so he's good.

Men are negatively pre-selective: other men dump the woman, so she's bad.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Obviously don't shit where you eat, lol. First rule.

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

WTF? We're not in high school anymore.

[–]3vilg0dAbsolution4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

It depends on age of woman. A 22 year old woman having 20 partners is a thot but a 35-40 year old woman is not.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

A woman having 20 partners is pretty much by definition a red flag.

Either she had a slut phase, or she's unable to hold onto a relationship.

[–]TheReformist94-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No woman has less than 20 in this day and age. And women want to slut it up and sow their oats as much if not more than we want to spread our seed

[–]azngirl76891 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have 2. Late bloomer.

Stop generalizing.

[–]TheReformist940 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're the exception. Exceptions prove the rule

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You are assuming that she had 20 relationships, probably. I am assuming the case where most men simply wanted sex or FwB.

Ok, if 75% are like that, we still get 5 men who want relationships.

Then there are incompatibility issues, etc. So, I would say 20 is not a thot number.

[–]3vilg0dAbsolution5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's not about what men wants but what she wants. It's her fault that 15 men she's being with only want casual sex. If she really wanted a relationship at that point she would be upfront about it especially after 5-6 consecutive casual encounters. Slut is mostly used for women who aren't suitable for LTRs and she clearly isn't.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

As you see from other comments, even 50+ N counts women can get married.

[–]3vilg0dAbsolution0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's easier to get married but tougher to maintain it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

By your definition, I'm a thot. But I had no problem getting married as soon as my biological clock started ticking.

I actually do think the "have sex with a lot of men and eventually just pick one for marriage" is a pretty good strategy for women. (As long as you practice safe sex / are fine with abortion, because you really don't want to get stuck parenting with one of the cast-offs)

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Do you really have that high number because 50+ men were not good enough for marriage?

I believe if sluts and studs want children they often settle for an open marriage.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

No, she just said she wasn't looking for a husband until her biological clock started ticking.

I dated for years and years with zero intent of finding a husband.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I guess so. I don't know how those biological clocks work, though. Probably, an adaptation to monogamy.

Feeling of dread before the wall.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You don't need to understand how the biological clock works, just that for many women at some point there's a shift from "dating for fun" to "looking for someone to marry/breed with".

How she behaves in the fun phase doesn't have much, if any, bearing on how she behaves in a marriage.

I slept with 60ish men before I got married. It wasn't that none of those 60 were marriage material, it's that I wasn't at all interested in marrying until a few years ago.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I thought some women are like that. But I guess desire to marry is connected with the wall or something like that. And apparently it is the case for those women who want children, but I am not sure.

But I still think women would behave differently in different environments. Nuclear family environment forces both men and women to settle down.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

How does it take the fun out of sex?

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Really -- some guys here say the strangest stuff. High value women with high sex drives are going to have had lots of prior partners. SO WHAT! They're still the most fun to have sex with.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

well, i mean, she meant for the WOMAN, not the man

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

All the high n-count women I've slept with certainly seem to be enjoying themselves. Much more so than many women with low counts.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yes thats why i asked the woman who made the assertion how it takes the fun out of sex

[–]adool7770 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but do you commit to them that's the question.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes. I was with one for 17 years.

[–]adool7770 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

How many prior partners are we talking? and how did that end?

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I was her first. She shacked up with her drug dealer.

[–]adool7770 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I figured. So you didn't marry a woman who fucked 30+ dudes before meeting you.

[–]coratoad0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The fun part of sex is the anticipation and build up. It is only after getting to know a person that you can really lust after them. If you have sex right away there is no chance for lust to build up so its just a mechanical action that you do with no sexual arousal, passion, or meaning. I don't understand what people get out of it.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

oh ok, so youre LITERALLY just talking about YOU, not making any universal statements

i can form that build up in 4 minutes

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is just irrational beta male insecurity. Like high value men, high value women with high sex drives (i.e. the only one's you want) are going to have had their share of partners. Such women are lots of fun to have sex with!

[–]J_Milton_JrDon't open 'til doomsday...♥0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Because each time a woman has sex with a new man her value goes down

not necessarily, she just has to do it discreetly

[–]coratoad0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

She will still know in her head and think "I'm a slut" and feel bad. Plus lying is stressful and makes you feel bad too.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

On contrary. Many young men want ltrs from the start. It's women who want to just hook up now..

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

they'll have an ltr with a small subset of women but will have casual sex with just about anyone. meaning that most womens interactions with men is coming from guys who want sex.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Women give it away themselves so.. who's to blame here? They control their vaginas not men.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

who is blaming anyone for anything? yeesh

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

blaming shaming complaining. Pick your preferred word.

[–] points  (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DesignerDebates3 small children in a trench coat[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is tagged as Q4Women.

[–]ColdHardTruth20194 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The reason why so many women are having trouble dating is because the vast majority of them are extremely selfish, lazy, and don’t put much thought into how their thoughts and actions are affecting their lives. They only focus on what they are getting out of the men they are dating, they don’t consider the idea that they need to give too. They date like they are hiring a man for the position of boyfriend.

I don’t care what they say at the table, when no ones looking they aren’t dating the way they claim - at the end of the day it’s all about them. What people say, and what they do are two completely different things.

If they really wanted to be a in a relationship they would figure it out.

Dating only sucks when you aren’t putting any thought and realistic effort into it.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you have more details about how these women are defining dating? That could mean anything from having serious partners to just downloading Tinder.

[–]JokengonzoPurple Pill Man[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Like they are looking for boyfriends via online dating or thru friends

[–]JokengonzoPurple Pill Man[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They are in the late 20’s earlier 30s

[–]Physiologist21Cynic2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I've never met a woman who had troubles dating unless they were either incredibly unlikable or had an incredibly low sense of self awareness, ie. the types who despite have nothing to offer besides their looks (if that) expect to land some model doctor who bends over backwards for them.

[–]purplecreature_1 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

When you say that women should have something to offer, what are some examples of things they should offer? I’m not trying to interrogate your comment, I genuinely want to know what you mean

[–]Physiologist21Cynic1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well what someone should offer is depending on the other partner, maybe someone only wants a pretty face so thats fine but i imagine if you want all the aforementioned from someone else you should expect they would want more then just some trophy wife.

For me, the ability to hold a conversation, being kind, and some common interests would be a good start.

[–]shonenhikada2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women when young--->Aim for Chad and top 20% that have 50+ girls in same area wanting to be with them.

Women now late 20's and 30's---> Start giving lesser tier men a chance who more likely to commit for marriage and relationship after Chad has gotten married.

Women now late 30's and 40's---> Give average guys a chance who will likely commit to her a chance.

[–]KikiYuyuPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There's a lot more parts than just finding a willing guy. They gotta be attracted to each other, get along, feel a "spark", and want the same things for the relationship.

[–]isweartoofuckingmuch 1 points [recovered]  (16 children) | Copy Link

Standards too high while not offering anything in the relationship. So many girls want a hot guy who cares about them, gives them time, affection etc. At the same time they've not cooked an egg in their lives and are useless as a houseplant without the oxygen boost.

A high value man simply has nothing to gain from this relationship.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband[M] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Automod please.

[–] points  (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband[M] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

My bad. Re-approved.

[–]planejaneRemove head from sphincter, THEN type.0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

http://reddit.com/r/Tinder/comments/aqh6sm/i_think_she_wanna_talk_to_my_manger/eggnv8b

He lied.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Your link is broken...

[–]planejaneRemove head from sphincter, THEN type.0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Fixed.

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ty

[–]planejaneRemove head from sphincter, THEN type.1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

And also here if you need it. Describes himself as a tall blonde guy.

http://reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/9qnuek/cmv_a_coding_course_offering_a_flat_500_discount/e8co5lc

[–]billybones110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

don't assume xe's gender

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[–]planejaneRemove head from sphincter, THEN type.0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Reported for trolling.

I want to see the quality of the sub improved, and all I can do is call out bullshit as I see it. If that makes me sad from your view, I'm ok with it.

The rules are there. And you don't even have to listen to me, I'm a nobody, I can't do anything besides report. The mods enforce, the rules are on the sidebar, if you keep them happy you've got nothing to worry about from me.

[–] points  (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No one i know is having a tough time dating. You either want a boyfriend and get one, or you want to be single. Not hard.

[–]ColdHardTruth20191 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly! If they are having trouble dating it’s on them for not thinking and putting effort into making a structure for dating that they are comfortable with. It’s. Not all the other personal fault lol

[–]throwaway94x1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Attractive women date men who dont give a fuck about them. And the other men chase after those women, who don't give a fuck about them. And no one cares about ugly women except for sex sometimes if they are really desperate.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph7 points8 points  (130 children) | Copy Link

They are educated, put effort into their appearance and want a guy to be the same. Unfortunately men really do think just being themselves is attractive enough. The idea they should have to spend hours shopping for nice fitting clothes or style their hair or wax their eyebrows is beyond them. So women aren't willing to waste all that effort on someone not doing the same. Hence the problem.

[–]Jonmad175 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that most of the characteristics that make women attracted to men are purely genetic. Height, facial symmetry, and hairline are all beyond one's control as a guy, and if you're screwed in two or more of those categories, there's nothing you can do about it. I mean, I have trouble dating as a short guy despite having visible abs, a nice sense of style, and decent charisma. There's no amount of effort I can put into my appearance that'll offset women's height requirements. Same is likely true for a man with an ugly face.

[–]mintylove0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

5'7 and above report pretty much the same number of sexual partners. You have plastic surgery for any major facial flaws and medication and hair transplants for the hairline.

[–]Jonmad172 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

5'7" is only three inches below average. It's as far from the mean as 6'1" is. So it's not particularly short. Try being 5'6" or 5'5". It's been a huge barrier to dating for me. Women regularly ghost me on tinder after the height question comes up, regardless of how well the conversation was going beforehand. I've had female friends flat-out tell me that they'd date me if I was taller. Height is certainly a significant issue for a lot of men, and it's not a characteristic that men have any control over whatsoever.

As for hair transplants, you do realize that they're far from universally effective, right? Joe Rogan had a hair transplant. They basically only work if your hairline hasn't receded past a certain point, and in order to maintain the procedure you have to take medication that fucks up your hormonal profile (similar to birth control), and can lead to health complications. It's also an incredibly expensive, painful, and invasive procedure — comparable to a face lift, from what i've heard.

[–]mintylove0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I agree that height can be a significant obstacle and unfortunately there is no realistic way to change it. Still, if a 5'7 guy has as much success as a 6'0 guy, I don't think 5'6 or even 5'5 is game over.

Joe Rogan had a transplant 20 years ago, they are significantly better now. You can have okayish hair even if you were slick bald. And don't get me started on finasteride, hormones and sides.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lots of male models are near bald as well. I know lots of shaved headed men.

[–]edge_lord_super_170 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

" I know lots of shave-headed men". You do know that there is a difference between being voluntarliy and involuntarily bald right?

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well sure, but it's not like it's an unpopular style. It doesn't make you a freak of nature to be bald or anything.

[–]edge_lord_super_170 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well kinda obvious that people who shaved their hair off would do so because their face is symmetrical in a way it would improve their bald look. A 5'2 balding indian? Yeah kind of a freak in nature especially in the Us

[–]edge_lord_super_170 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Is that a personal anecdote?

[–]mintylove0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I'm the looksmaxing overlord.

[–]disposableboyfriendmeat robot 🤖15 points16 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

So women having trouble dating is the men's fault. Because the men don't wax their eyebrows.

Yes, I'm making what you said sound more ridiculous than it is. But not by much.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Oh no, it's not the fault of anyone. It's just a reality. Men are low effort when it comes to things modern woman value. It's just growing pains. Women don't need subpar men anymore and without that need they are happy enough to be alone. They will complain because it's less ideal, but it's still more ideal then daiting some one you aren't attracted to.

It's easy to go the gym, put on lotion and groom your hair. Millions of women do it every day. Men want a woman like that. Men also smell test a shirt before they decide to wash it. The differences in effort between the genders in attracting a mate is huge.

[–]sketch1620001 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The differences in effort between the genders in attracting a mate is huge.

Part of the problem, of course, is the ongoing narrative that women just don't care about looks like men do. We just had a thread about this.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think a threshold exists, it's just not the only thing.

Men care about 1.Looks.......2.Personality For woman its like 1.Looks 2.Personality So looks aren't AS important for woman, but their a threshold. I don't care if my car goes over 100 mph. I care if it has wheels though. Meeting the requirement matters, for the most attractive people their threshold is going to be higher.

[–]sketch1620001 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Really the way that it should be phrased is that looks aren't enough for women. Women are picky.

Basically, what always gets communicated is this idea that looks aren't so important and how you can always make up for it somehow. But realistically, probably the most efficient advice to optimize anyone's dating life is to work on attractiveness and appearance. And it would be completely obvious if not for everyone trying to muddy the waters by constantly talking about the outliers and exceptions to that broad example of human nature in the interest of sparing feelings and/or seeming deeper that we probably are.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed, I do also think when people say looks aren't everything they have this polarized super hot but super douche guy in their mind. Most people aren't Disney villains. Yeah a really toxic personality overshadows a hottie body but it's not like there aren't tons of people with good personality and good bodies.

[–]douchebag_throwaway3-4 points-3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Kind of, yes.

Men are so fucking pathetic today that it's laughable.

[–]Nomadic_Sushi9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Such a strong, brave individual to say something so daring yet total bullshit on an anonymous internet forum.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Or maybe it's all our way of keeping arrogant, delusional and appallingly low-quality women who think men are pathetic, from procreating and polluting the gene pool.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Never did this before and it may look autistic but /r/murderedbywords

[–]Disaster5323855 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As opposed to all the fat, non feminine narcissistic and neurotic women out there? They surely are a catch /s

[–]Jakkol4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men don't want a woman who is not attracted to them.

Putting on fake effort would be that. Men only do that to get casual flings. And the women mentioned in OP want relationships not flings.

If a woman only looks for a man putting on this fake charade then they should not be surprised he is not interested in a relationship

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If a woman only looks for a man putting on this fake charade then they should not be surprised he is not interested in a relationship

Good point.

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

The idea they should have to spend hours shopping for nice fitting clothes or style their hair or wax their eyebrows is beyond them.

Why the fuck would any guy want to do this shit just to impress a bunch of self-important women.

When I'm off work I wear jeans and a plain cotton t-shirt. If a woman doesn't like it tough. Funny thing is that so long as I remain in decent shape they don't care.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Then don't? just dont expect woman who do those things to want someone who doesn't. Seems fair.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

I expect women to present themselves well. Which can easily be done in jeans and a t-shirt. Thing is attractiveness can't be bought at the mall or created at the salon.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yes, well fitting jeans and shirts that will be in fact, bought at a mall.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

The body to wear them can't. I look good in $15 jeans and a $4 t-shirt from Walmart because I work hard at it. If I didn't the fanciest most expensive clothes wouldn't matter.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well there you go, you work hard at your appearance, so you should want someone who does the same no?

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Working on one's appearance does not involve shopping.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It can if all you own is illfitting, dirty and worn down clothing.

You'd be surprised what men used to come into my old job wearing. Shirts with the armpits ripped out, grease stains, jeans showing their ass crack. Even the more attractive and fit ones.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah. I guess if they're that clueless.

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm watching this exact debate play out over all my local community forums. Nobody in my city is yielding on either side of the debate and it's been a couple of years now and nobody sees how fucking ridiculous it is.

The thing is the vast majority of men won't do that because they genuinely don't give a fuck about it and hold the entire thing in disdain. The male fashion industry hasn't revolved around that kind of style since like the 80's and once Steve Jobs and Marky Zucc ran their company's in jeans it was fully dead. Men don't equate well dressed with successful and don't care if their dates show up in a color co-ordinated dress or a stained hoodie half the time.

My last date showed up full of acne and in an old sweater and I didn't care. I buy expensive ass shampoo and wear leather shoes but I don't do it to impress women. Everyone lives different lives and the idea of exact reciprocity is retarded.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

But there are many men who will do it, so it's not a complete wash. If you want to be a low effort person and you are happy with a low effort person that's great. It's low effort men who think that high effort women should want them that I take issue with.

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The thing is after a certain point it stops being about what's fair and it starts being about what's realistic. High effort men are a minority and that has nothing to do with race or class so much as this is the style of the day. If you're holding out for a high effort man you'll probably be waiting for a long, long time.

The OP was asking about women so that's kind of what I'm focusing on. There aren't high effort men in the numbers women want. Because being a high effort man doesn't really get you any kind of reward in this day and age. If you're looking for one you need to face the fact that your odds of getting him are probably pretty low.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Have one. And as we've seen, women would rather be alone then deal with low value.

[–]NockerJoeKing Hater0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And that's their right to choose. However a lot of people aren't really cognizant of what the back end of that choice looks like. Red Pill guys love to talk about 30 as old age and you see a lot of women talk about 40 like it's some kind of wall but you don't really see the downsides until you're in your 50's and beyond, give or take a decade depending on your health and condition. There gets to be a point where living alone becomes less and less viable every year and you start to slow down and wonder how you'll do basic things like get across town to a doctors office or change lightbubs without someone who's either in reasonable shape themselves or who's disabilities compliment yours. I.E. a responsible adult child, a spouse, or a carer of the kind a lot of people can't afford.

There's an entire back half to life that doesn't really get discussed in these scenarios and just like basically everything else in that back half of life if you only worry about it when you get there it's kind of going to be too late.

[–]_Purple_Rain 1 points [recovered]  (31 children) | Copy Link

The idea they should have to spend hours shopping for nice fitting clothes or style their hair or wax their eyebrows is beyond them.

That seems a bit...feminine. So in order to become more attractive you need to become less masculine?

I get that basic hygiene and decent fitting clothes is a must but waxing? I would've thought that would only appeal to a niche subset of women.

[–]Cactuar_TamerMaking poor life choices.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It won't or shouldn't be obvious to the casual observer that someone is waxing their eyebrows. I doubt most people even pay attention to eyebrows on a conscious level unless something is seriously wrong with them. I personally don't care, but they are one element to an attractive face so some people do wax them into shape if they are scruffy, bushy, or approaching a unibrow.

Basically it won't read as 'feminine,' because it almost never 'reads' at all.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph1 point2 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

No. It creates symmetry in the face a universeal sign of good genes. It will make every man look better and done properly its not even noticeable.

https://images.app.goo.gl/aXckaFi62DoSgE137

All it does is even them out, not thin them.

[–]douchebag_throwaway31 point2 points  (48 children) | Copy Link

Yes, becoming a top 20% man really isn't that hard in today's culture.

Men today are pathetic. Even a small amount of effort would make huge gains in a guys SMV, but too many men want it all with no effort.

Women can have it all with minimal effort, but men can't. Sorry guys, it's unfair as fuck. But less unfair than having periods.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, becoming a top 20% man really isn't that hard in today's culture.

And this is how one user shows a total lack of understanding of statistics.

[–]SeemedGood2 points3 points  (46 children) | Copy Link

What we want is for women to appreciate us for our beings as opposed to for our utility to them.

Sure, maybe we’ll gussy ourselves up for an evening of sex with an attractive stranger (even then not going metrosexual for it) but if a woman isn’t interested in me because I’m not gussying myself up to her “standard” she’s signaling that she’s just shopping for an object that best fits her list of specifications.

If she’s doing that she’s unlikely to be able to appreciate me for my being and is therefore not really a great candidate for a healthy relationship.

Bottom line, the “pickier” the woman is about looks, the less likely she is to be a good long term partner. So the only incentive for us to “put in the effort” is for casual sex and the more they hand out casual sex to us for “putting in the effort” the more aware we become that their RMV is zero.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph2 points3 points  (45 children) | Copy Link

Well then date a fat chick I guess. No good looking high effort person should expect nothing in return for her efforts.

[–]SeemedGood1 point2 points  (44 children) | Copy Link

No issue dating a fat chick if she is kind, curious, and thoughtful.

No interest in dating any woman who is viewing the relationship as an exchange of utility or who expends “effort” to make herself up so that she can “get a man.” That’s just asking for a nightmare.

Women’s attractiveness isn’t based on their “level of effort” at being attractive at all. Rather, it’s somewhat negatively correlated to me. If effort is required it suggests that you’re not naturally attractive.

Edit: For the sake of clarity: I have no interest in a woman who looks (or has made herself look) a certain way. I have interest in a woman who is a certain way.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph2 points3 points  (43 children) | Copy Link

Good for you. I'll let in on a secret of mine. People can be good people and still value effort in a partner and attraction. Being kind is not mutually exclusive to being ugly.

Also, I put in the effort because I want to put my best foot forward in life. Being more attractive makes my life easier, it let's me know that it won't be a barrier. I'd do it irregardless of if I have a potiontal mate around.

There is only so far natural can take you and where is the line. Men like long hair, if I use good shampoo and take vitamins to make my hair look good, is that unnatural?

[–]SeemedGood0 points1 point  (41 children) | Copy Link

What is the “effort” and why do you value it? That you value it suggests that you desire and expect a certain set of utility. You expect a man to look a certain way because it will provide you with utility.

I have no interest in being in a relationship with a woman who expects a certain set of utility from me. I wish to be in a relationship with a woman who wants to be in it with me because she appreciates me for my being not the for the effort I make to provide her utility.

And nothing beyond a woman’s natural beauty makes her any more attractive to me. Quite the opposite, it signals “effort” to either deceive or to enhance superficial value for the purpose of trading it to obtain some utility. Both of which are fine, I guess, for an ONS but signal trouble for a meaningful relationship.

If you’re using quality soaps and taking vitamins, I would hope that you do so because they are healthier for you, not because you think they make you look better. That obsession with looks signals poor relationship material.

Edit:

Being kind is not mutually exclusive to being ugly.

Of course not. It’s one of the things which can actuallymake you beautiful, unlike makeup with hair and nails done.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph3 points4 points  (40 children) | Copy Link

I don't appericate a partner who is too lazy or selfish to not put effort in. It carries over, low effort people tend to be low effort in more aspects in life then just one. Driven and people who are focused on self improvement show that in may ways. I want to bust my ass for my partner and I want the same for me.

If a person just wants to be themselves, cool, but don't expect then to put effort into you, your relationship or your life together. That's a sign of really poor relationship material. Dude doesn't want to groom his beard? Probably also not gona help you clean the house because "it's just how i am" or wants to spend hours wasting time instead of doing something productive.

Some people are ugly because they can't help it. Lots of people have an outside that reflects their insides though, slobby and low effort. Not a great bet for a partner if you want a good life.

[–]SeemedGood1 point2 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

I want to bust my ass for my partner and I want the same for me.

but don't expect then to put effort into you, your relationship or your life together.

Dude doesn't want to groom his beard? Probably also not gona help you clean the house because "it's just how i am" or wants to spend hours wasting time instead of doing something productive

a great bet for a partner if you want a good life

As I said, you want to choose a partner based on his utility to you not on his being. That’s not an attractive quality for a relationship. Rather, it’s the opposite, a gigantic red flag.

We don’t need women to “improve” our lives. Our lives are perfectly fine without them, often better than with. I certainly don’t expect my partner to “bust her ass for me,” I don’t need anything from her. I’m perfectly capable of providing as good a life for myself as I would want to have. A woman is not going to do that for me, or even really help me achieve that. Certainly she might wish to, but the last thing I would do is choose a woman based on her expected utility to me. That’s how I shop for my watches, sports cars, power tools, laptops and motorcycles. If I want a relationship with a woman it’s because I appreciate her for her being, not for what she can do for me, because invariably she’s going to provide some sort of negative utility to me as she’s a person, and therefore highly flawed.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (29 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, nobody values sloth, its a reason it's a vice.

[–]bd310 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Extreme effort suggests that a person isn't being themselves, and compromising their natural inclinations to accommodate another. A sound relationship should make both people's lives easier in the long run, not harder.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

It's not climbing Everest to wear clean well pressed clothes and groom your hair. That being said nobody short of your mother is in your life to make your life easier on you just to be you. Things in life that are worth something are work. Should a relationship make you unhappy? Of course not, but it's not really about making your life easy, it's about making it better.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Being kind is not mutually exclusive to being ugly.

You murdered the hell out of that straw men. Absolutely barbaric.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately men really do think just being themselves is attractive enough.

Because women told them that they just needed to be themselves.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

That is honestly awful advice. Be the best version of yourself is better.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Be the best version of yourself is better.

The best version of yourself is not enough in a lot of cases, a 5'2 bald Indian will never be considered attractive, no matter how much effort he puts on improving himself.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

He can not be bald? That's an option. Hight is kinda a hard one and I don't doubt it's an obstacle but my dad whoes 5'5 has never been single and he casually dates my whole life. My friend whoes 5'5 and another who are 5'6 are both married. Idk man it's not a brick wall, just a hurdle.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

$$$$$$$$$

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah, my family was pretty poor as a kid.

[–]BirdManBrrrr-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You're exactly right, yet no woman will go out and tell a random guy to his face "be the best version of yourself".

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I will.

[–]TheLongerCon0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know where you live but every time I go to the gym I see more men then women, and most young professional men know how to dress well enough for a date.

The primary problem with these men isn’t their looks, it’s their game. Game is the single most important thing for attracting women, and a lot guys don’t have it.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe for casual sex? I don't know. I honestly disagree, I like some nerdy hobbies and while I get along with the men great, their appearance really put them in the "non-date-able" catagory.

[–]TheLongerCon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Getting along with guys doesn’t mean they have good game, usually the opposite. Nerdy guys usually have weak game.

Looks matter, obviously, but there’s a reason it’s women that usually are the ones that don’t want a second date.

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist0 points1 point  (21 children) | Copy Link

Because all men are unfaithful scum whos "love" is 100% based on beauty/youth.

Sounds ike your girlfriend's friends are finally realizing it.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. We hate fat chicks

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And if they agree with you then it is a good thing they're checking out... hopefully before they contribute their enormous defects into the gene pool.

[–]Esk1mOz4mb1kFormer Nice Chad4 points5 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Ah the bitterness of inceldom.

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist2 points3 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Nah, more like the bitterness of the truth.

Also, “Blue Chad” lmao imagine being that delusional.

[–]Esk1mOz4mb1kFormer Nice Chad2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

There no Truth sweetheart. There is definitely a ton of bitterness from damaged individuals though.

But go on and keep rejecting the responsability of your own failure on others. That's what children do.

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

What “failure” are you talking about?

I didn’t fail at anything. I just observe the way men are and reviewed the statistics and came to the rational conclusion that it’s not worth it. If that makes me bitter then so be it. I’d rather be bitter than to be a delusional retard who believes in love and thinks that men won’t cheat only to be proven wrong again and again (like most women).

[–]Esk1mOz4mb1kFormer Nice Chad2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You think you're rational but you're not and that's the problem.

You probably met shitty dudes and there are plenty, but not all men are shit (same applies for women). Either you attract / interact with shitty men because you're shitty yourself or you have poor tastes and retarded expectations (same applies for misogynists).

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You probably met shitty dudes and there are plenty, but not all men are shit (same applies for women). Either you attract / interact with shitty men because you're shitty yourself or you have poor tastes and retarded expectations (same applies for misogynists).

No, I meet shitty dudes because all men are shit. It has nothing to do with me. All women have the exact same experience as me, and if they haven't they will eventually.

[–]Esk1mOz4mb1kFormer Nice Chad0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Alright assuming you're not trolling, why do you think that? Do you believe women are inherently good/better?

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I didn’t fail at anything. I just observe the way men are and reviewed the statistics and came to the rational conclusion that it’s not worth it.

If you can't find a good man then the problem is you.

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't look for a "good man" because I know they don't exist.

[–]isweartoofuckingmuch 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

as you've been told multiple other times, the problem is definitely you. If everywhere you go smells of shit, look under your shoe

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, every woman has the exact same experience as me sooner or later.

[–]diemstheboyManly0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I highly doubt even most women completely cut themselves out of the dating scene because of literal elliot rodgers esque philosophy.

But I guess the more you distance yourself from an entire demographic, the more disconnected from it you become.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If they don't exist then the problem is you.

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, every woman has the exact same experience as me sooner or later.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

LOL I'm sure quite a few women here will disagree with you, or already has. Face it, if you see all men as trash, then the real problem is you.

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like the only guys you meet are at clubs and on tinder

[–]Nomadic_Sushi3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was looking for the /s and then realised you were serious so I had a good chuckle because I love a good retarded blanket statement which makes no sense and is completely untrue.

Seems like an ironic statement that men only care about beauty/youth when 80% of women are allegedly going for the top 20% of men whilst simultaneously voting 80% of men as "below average" in appearance.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Must suck being part of the same species.

[–]douchebag_throwaway34 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're adorable!

I like you!

[–]Sprach_McGrachan 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

So my Girlfriend’s friends came over so they could have girl time and drink wine. Well before I took off to catch a meal with some friends I caught pieces of the convo they were having and it alll seemed to revolve on how hard dating was for them and that they were giving up dating for a while. My sister has also mentioned how many of her gfs are checking out of dating. Why though what’s making it so hard?

Sounds like the makings of another Madea movie.

​

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Automod please.

[–]PhotosyntheticChad 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

More like a Lesbea movie. Amiright men?!

[–]Sad_Virgin_Beta_Male 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's called hypergamy. Every foid wants Chad and only Chad. That's why so many women are single. They refuse to date their looksmatch

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains[M] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No incel content. And this is a question for women. You're batting 1000 right now.

[–]sternje0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is typical psychological self-protection. Believe me, if someone they found to be attractive and charming asked for their instagram/fb/whatsapp/phone# while in line waiting for a Starbucks, they'd immediately reverse course.

[–]boomcheese440 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hate this idea that everything in life should be easy, without any trouble or setback. Nothing in life is effortless. Finding a partner should be a hard thing. Most relationships or interactions with the opposite sex fails. Just because people choose to step back does not mean that there is some type of systematic problem.

[–]HalfysRedditIndependent thinker0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well OP you need to finish asking your question. Women are having trouble with what?

Most likely what they are having difficulty finding is commitment, and that's because they're human. The commitment struggle has been real for most of human history and in fact had to be tied to valuable property to incentivize it.

[–]slavicgypsygirl0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I date a lot & enjoy it so rdk

[–]TookthemethpillBlack Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because guys learned we can just pump and dump you and move on to the next one without marrying.

Beta bux are learning to be beta fux now. Or just simply going MGTOW.

[–]svalbard50 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women have trouble with the dating scene because they have ridiculous standards.

​

Dating websites allow users to filter men based on various criteria -- race, age, religion, height, etc.

​

Most women check "6ft +". That's 8% of the total population and SIGNIFICANTLY less than 8% of the dating website membership. A guy who is 6+ and is on a dating website likely has issues.

​

So, if you are a woman who is only going out with 6ft + guys who can't manage a relationship, wtf do you think is going to happen?

​

Meanwhile, a 5'4" guy doesn't get any hits because he's filtered out. Could be the nicest guy in the world.

​

Women need to realize that as they age, they don't need to lower their standards, they need to abandon their standards completely. If you are 30+ and unmarried, you're in trouble. If you're 35+ and unmarried, you should be panicked. If you are 40+, you're done. Game over.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Because millennial men are garbage

[–]Kore6240 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

“Hook up culture”? Maybe the guys they’ve been interested in are more open and upfront about just wanting casual sex. Or maybe they’re just having bad luck and don’t have anything in common with the people they’re seeing

[–]my-little-wonton1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought this. Dating websites make rejection for sex a lot easier than in person with a lot less effort involved too.

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[–]Ultramegasaurus8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not enough single, top 20% and relationship-oriented men available. What a horror.

[–]Esk1mOz4mb1kFormer Nice Chad6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You forgot "and interested / attracted to an average chick who he treats like a princess"

[–]oneprettycoolcat17 points18 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Dating isn't hard for them. Dating Chad is hard for them, because Chad is both rare and desired by all other women, which means he has options.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You just murdered this thread.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They do not like that chad doesn't stay after sex or/and beta provider orbiter asks for sex when she's "not ready yet".

[–]allweknowisD3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And here I thought this was a “question for women” thread...

[–]azngirl76892 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nothing can be Q4W. The men have to let us know what they think because men.

[–]azngirl76893 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Manosphere: women suck they’re only good for sex

Also manisphere: men want relationships

[–]diffdedbedGreen Eyed Devil1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Krispy Kream.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could be the possibility that people are generally mentally/spiritually underdeveloped these days and they simply expect to meet someone they are compatible with as they are so they don’t have to change or come to terms with any of their shortcomings and don’t know that this isn’t how successful dating or relationships work.

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've seen similar in my social circle, along with some dudes who can't get laid. Two sides of the same coin.

  1. Women feel entitled to chad simply because they're women, and feel no need to bring value otherwise.

  2. Modern millennial men are--on average--pathetic: weak, unmasculine, feminized, and sloppy. Some may be good on paper (job, etc) but personality is garbage.

The average leftovers on both sides don't want eachother, and the better women in that pool have it worse since the better men have already paired off unless they catch a divorcee or something like that.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

almost all of the women i know who have problems with dating have the same problem: they overestimate their own SMV/RMV and go after much higher value guys who aren't very interested in a relationship.

a big part of this is due to the fact that men will happily fuck women they're not interested in a relationship with, but women don't seem to understand this.

so women will meet a guy and start hooking up with him and maybe occasionally do very casual dating type things. and the women assume eventually the guy will eventually want a real LTR. but the dudes are already getting exactly what they want (commitment free sex) so they have zero motivation or desire to make it into a more serious LTR.

[–]cae_lucas4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why are there so many men making OP comments on a Question for Women thread?

[–]planejaneRemove head from sphincter, THEN type.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a damn good point.

[–]douchebag_throwaway30 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Usually there is a Q4W: at the beginning of the title. I completely missed the tag.

[–]vanBeethovenLudwigroses are red, feminists are blue0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Did they say the reasons why they are giving up?

Either they're having trouble because of their own vulnerability issues, or they're extremely picky about their selection.

[–]JokengonzoPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

something about how Men aren’t stepping up and ambition etc

[–]DXBrigade0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because you are a woman doesn't mean that you have it easy when it comes to dating. Everyone struggles.

[–]RickWilsonsBuck 1 points [recovered]  (13 children) | Copy Link

How old are they

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband[M] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Automod please.

[–]RickWilsonsBuck 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

What?

[–]LittleknownfactsAutomod is my husband[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This thread is tagged Q4Women, top level comments must be from women. Please feel free to repost your comment under the automod. Any further questions questions should go to modmail. Thank you

[–]planejane 1 points [recovered]  (9 children) | Copy Link

Are you female? This question is tagged as Q4W.

[–]RickWilsonsBuck 1 points [recovered]  (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm not. I'm asking OP a question though, and not answering his question.

[–]planejane 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

Ok, reported then.

[–]RickWilsonsBuck 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy Link

Where's the rule on this?

[–]planejane 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

Have you read the sidebar? It's there. And it's one of the few rules they actually follow really rigidly.

If you're new I really, really suggest you read it.

And no, I'm just frustrated with men at large not following the rules and then whining that the women are the ones who are mean and get away with breaking them. Maybe you're a well-meaning bystander, in which case I'm sorry, but it's a regular issue here.

[–]RickWilsonsBuck 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

I looked in the sidebar honestly and could not find it... what section is it under? I may be a prick but I don't want to break rules

[–]planejane 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

From the sidebar, "Comment Guidelines: 1) Q4X should be appropriate."

[–]RickWilsonsBuck 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

This doesn't exclude the opposite sex from commenting, from what I can see. Even looking at the more detailed thing I posted, it doesn't. This needs to be clarified if it's going to be enforced.

[–]planejane 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Again I ask, are you new?

I'm sure it could be better clarified, you can message the mods for it, but it's a pretty well-known rule around here, if you lurked for even a week or two I'd be surprised if you didn't see it mentioned.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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