TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

83

Hi Everyone,

I discovered some new and interesting data the other day relating to what RP calls “the wall”. The changes in the SMP that happen for women in their 30’s and 40s.

The first thing that caught my eye was this graph from a study on relative mate value

It did so because RP frequently draws such graphs based on lived experience, only to have that challenged by people saying “give me a scientific graph, not your made up with crayons version”. Well, there it is. The scientific data matching RPs roughly drawn with crayons version

When science measures changes in relative power in the dating market it finds what RP has always said they’d find “Women start out way ahead, it evens out late 20s/early 30s and then men go ahead by mid 30s and stay way ahead forever”.

The other thing I tripped across appears to be something RP talks about regarding the wall, but had never properly understood. It turns out that science has discovered another mechanism that explains the features of the wall RP has understood through lived experience.

The study is a meta analysis of the effects of age on human mate choice. It’s a great summary of how we know these things, and just how solid the science on gender/age differences in attraction is.

The new insight can be summarised as

Male instinctive preferences for short term mate age align with average female female fecundity. Whilst long term preferences for mate age relate to total female reproductive potential.

Basically the point at which a woman is the highest value as a long term mate is around age 21-22 and declines rapidly to almost 0 around 42. The point at which she is highest value for a ONS or similar thing is 27-28 and declines to almost 0 only around 48. The study also shows males actual behaviour conforms closely to this preference.

At the same time men’s long term mate value is rising rapidly to a peak in the 40s and 50s as he gains income and status.

Here is the above description in graph form.

The basic rationale is that men’s instincts are primed to seek the women “who can have the most babies before becoming infertile” for long term mates, but the women “most likely to have a baby after a single sexual encounter” for ST mates and these aren’t the same thing.

Think of a female that’s quite old, say 28. As a long term mate she has already lost all the kids she could have had aged 21-27, this lowers her LT mate value as far as his genetic instincts are concerned. By this age she’s already lost 1/3rd of that LT value.

However she’s at her most fecund. Perhaps a 5% chance per sexual act of having a baby. That makes her twice as valuable as a ONS than a 18 or 36 yo who only has a 2.5% chance per ONS. Men would have to achieve only “half as many” ONS to impregnate her, and so his instincts are keyed to that in the ST sense.

This explains one of the features of the wall that RP noticed as a reality but had no real explanation for (Chad is happy to shag the 35 yo girls, but doesn’t want to marry one).

Basically a 33 yo woman has 90% of her short term mate value intact, at the same point she has already lost 75% of her long term mate value. I’m not surprised almost all the guys will still sleep with her, but only the lowest value of those males want to “put a ring on it”. The same woman aged 24 would have had many more guys trying to put that ring on.

This should help reconcile the differences of opinion we have here between the BP girls and the RP guys.

  • When the BP girls say “I’m 33 and plenty of guys are still interested” she’s right, that’s her lived experience, they are interested. She just hasn’t figured out yet that while they used to be interested for sex+relationships, it’s now increasingly sex focussed and not relationship focussed attention. They’re happy to sleep with her, but will ghost at much higher numbers when the commitment question starts to come up.

  • When the RP guys say “33 is past it. High value males are not going to marry you at that age.” They’re right too! The high value males are going to start marrying down past you (hence “where have all the good men gone”) even if they’ll happily still sleep with women who’s ST mate value is as high as yours.

  • And when the RP girls say “Don’t waste your pretty. Snag a high value male while you’re young” they’re also right. 21-24 is where your value is highest and so women can get the best males for marriage, the fact that their “for sex, not marriage” peak is in the future disguises this from most women causing them to think “Oh, I’ve got years yet before I have to settle down” [Narrator: they haven’t].

The last thing I’d like to add is that male instincts don’t work on numbers. In the evolutionary environment there were no birth certificates. Males instincts are working from “perceived age” here.

So. What would you like to discuss ?

I would really recommend giving the meta analysis a scan first.

It’ll deal with almost all your scientific objections all by itself and really would be a good way for both men and women to get their head around gender differences in age preferences.

TL;DR .... Science has confirmed the wall exists for women the way RP has always described it.


[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂15 points16 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

You know, I wasn’t going to make a top level reply to this post, but then I saw this thread on askreddit full of men talking about how not only are they attracted to women 30+ as they themselves get older, they also find women in their 20s to look like children the further away they get from 20. Which lines up with what I’ve observed in my actual life. I wholeheartedly believe that plenty of men, especially men in this sub, function along RP talking points, but the truth really is that not all men are like that.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Not all men "are like that" in the way you and the rest of the girls read my OP, no.

But thats not really what my OP was saying, or what the science articles under it were saying.

They wern't saying this was impossible. It was describing which way male and female preferences bend if you like. Where their preferences are, and how they trade off those preferences. What that means for your chances in the SMP/RMP on aggregate.

Look, I'm sure you can find a thread of people saying "I went into a casino and won money!" and other people agreeing with them too, "Yeah, I went once and won $1000!".

Thats just not the way reality bends for casino's.

If I did an OP on casino's explaining that "the house has an edge, and always wins overall" I'd get loads of nice BP girls telling me I'm wrong and they have a friend who won $10,000 at a casino.

I've no real doubt thats true. But the OP would still be correct.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Aha, so here it is then- No strategy will help you on slot machines. Or roulette. It's like Bingo cards- nothing to do but see if you won. Mating for humans is not like that at all, there is a LOT you can do to improve your odds and some people are just genetically dealt a better hand. More like Poker. So if someone keeps on winning the big stakes games, maybe they have a reason to brag about their winnings because the house certainly did not win. (I actually know a guy who did this) Life is more like Poker than Bingo.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, the point of the casino analogy wasn’t that you couldn’t beat the house with sexuality.

It was to show that although there are underlying trends you can’t see that from anecdotally reported experience all that well.

Of course you can improve your chances in dating. Just buying nice clothes and getting a fashionable haircut helps, for example.

But you have to work with the grain of the wood to get the best effect from that.

To give an example, the grain of the wood on attraction is “men are attracted to youth, women to many thing of which status is the most important”.

You’ve got to work with the grain of that wood.

Women developing status to get the guy aren’t helping themselves, that time should be spent making themselves look younger (makeup etc).

Men trying to look as young as they can to get the girl aren’t helping themselves, eu need to spend their time developing status and the other traits women are interested in.

That’s the grain of the wood here.

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

but then I saw this thread on askreddit full of men talking about how not only are they attracted to women 30+ as they themselves get older, they also find women in their 20s to look like children the further away they get from 20.

Sounds like politically correct male feminists telling women what they think women want to hear, for praise and upvotes. Also could be women pretending to be men, and also gay, bisexual men somehow "representing" men in general. And of course the occasional guy who actually prefers older women to younger women (or was he really just so low t he didn’t really care?).

These men should start an alternative to red pill, see if they too can get 300k+ subscribers.

[–]chaddad90000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

men talking about how not only are they attracted to women 30+ as they themselves get older

I mean that is true, but that thread quickly went in the direction of mommas boy redditors with a MILF fetish.

Reddit loves to vote up contrarian groupthink. Just say you're a woman into short bald guys with beer guts and small penises and upboat ahoy!

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

but then I saw this thread on askreddit

Opinion discarded, the average 30 yo male redditor simply does not have the SMV to LTR 20 yo females. When they say they're attracted to females that hit the wall that's their way of rationalizing their lack of choices.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure.

[–]SmurfESmurferson31 points32 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

I'm confused (and can't quote on mobile) - you claim that male market value increases into his 50s, and link to a graph showing an increase in income. But the initial graph you linked very clearly shows that men have the most SMP power (relative to women) at age 40, but that they fall off a cliff and are equal to women by 45

That's always been the hamstering I've objected to - men aren't peaking into their 50s/pushing 60

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 13 points14 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Yes, this is an artefact if the data in that graph.

It uses all males 18-60 but only females 18-44.

That flattens it after 44. Were the 45-60 yo women also included the male line would continue being well above the female one all the way to 60. As it stands the exclusion of he 45-60 yo women flattens the graph off arbitrarily.

The scientists were measuring only fertile people. We’re interested in all people.

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

The chart plots women's ages out through their 60s - I thought the text was saying that men prefer women in their reproductive years (through 44)

I don't think they made up numbers to chart after the age of 44 for women

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Look at the text at the bottom.

The chart plots all males 18-60 against all females 18-44 who placed dating adverts.

Any females 45-60 who placed adverts “seeking 50 yo men” were not included. Only females aged 44 yo who wanted 50 yo men.

However, any 50 yo men who wanted 44 yo females were included.

It’s this artefact that causes the Male curve to drop after 45. All the female data that would “balance that out” and cause the Male line to be much higher was removed.

[–]SmurfESmurferson10 points11 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I did - the chart states that advertisers preference is for fecund women (aged 18 - 44). It doesn't state that only women in that age bracket were plugged into the chart; in fact, the chart includes women outside of those ages

If they made up stats to plot on the graph, I have some serious concerns about the study

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't state that only women in that age bracket were plugged into the chart; in fact, the chart includes women outside of those ages

I find this rather irritating as well. If you only include women up to the age of 40ish, then why not simply cut off the graph there?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

It does. The relevant bit...

Advertisers' preferences are those expressed by reproductive age individuals (de¢ned as 20-44 years in the case of females, 20-59 years in the case of males)

So adverts placed by non reproductive age individuals are not counted.

Males or females at 1 year old.... or at 99 years old.

However because men are fertile until 60 but women only until 44 they placed the cutoff there.

This makes perfect sense for their purposes in the study. It’s just really inconvenient for us here, as were interested in the non-fertile as well.

If the adverts placed by the 45-60 women were included (despite being infertile) the graph would show the male lead maintaining or even accelerating (as males die earlier).

[–]SmurfESmurferson6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's still not clear to me - it's saying that the advertisers' preferences were for up to 44 year old women, but women are charted through age 60

So, are you saying they just made up plot points to account for women age 45 - 60? Because that's some seriously flawed science

[–]couldbemage4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The line for men represents what ages in men are desired by women who are 20-44.

The line for women represents what ages in women are desired by men who are 20-60.

Nothing is made up. For our purposes, the far right of the graph is of limited utility due to the limits of their data collection.

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Which is totally different than how TGP is reading it

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How is it different from how TGP is reading it?

TGP is reading everything to the left of the age 45 as being prefectly fine data.

TGP is explaining why the line on the right arbitarily flattens off, due to a data artefact.

TGP is pointing out that due to the nature of the artefact if it was removed, the male line could only go "up" meaning the real position of the male line here must be above the female line (and so indicate a lead in RMP/SMP position).

You can't make the male line go down by adding female 45-60 data, only up, because of what the graph measures.

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

It uses all males 18-60 but only females 18-44.

Which it shouldn't, as it chose those ages for reproductive value and men who aren't fathers by the age of 40, rarely become so, even if they are theoretically capable of doing it.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Well, they wanted to measure fertile men against fertile women.

Not "women who might still want to be mothers against men who might still decide to become fathers".

The effect they were trying to look at is irrespective of "desire to become a father/mother" and should be keyed towards "ability to become a father/mother".

Thats why they cut the females off at 45 but the males off only at 60. Something that made sense for their study, but was a PITA for our purposes necessitating me explaining this several times.

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Yes, men want younger women, everyone knows this. Can they get them, and if they do, is it because of sexual attraction or money? These are the questions.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

Yes, yes and depends are the answers.

There is no doubt many women date/marry much older men out of genuine sexual attraction. There is also no doubt many other women do it for the money.

Which of the two is going to depend on how attractive the man is across the female preferences and how big the age gap is.

Monica was interested in Bill sexually across a 27 year age gap because he had bags of status and charisma. She wasn’t blowing him for the money.

When a 22 yo porn star married a 93yo billionaire, that’s for the money.

It’s going to depend on the guy and the gal. But the automatic assumption most people make here of “if there is a large age gap she’s in it for the money” is probably wrong in most normal cases.

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Bill's charisma must be amazing in person. He certainly doesn't have any sex appeal on TV.

But according to the OKCupid study, older men does not include men over 40.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

“Older Men” usually means for girls a guy within about +10 to her age. For her to stretch over that instinctive limit for her he has to have really attractive qualities she wants to access.

For most older men this is some combination of status/dominance/charisma. Bill has those in spades, so he could stretch a genuine sexual attraction over a gargantuan 27 year gap.

Most guys aren’t going to be able to do that. But most normal guys who “develop the right things” like status and charisma and etc etc can fairly easily stretch girls over a 8-12 year gap (depending on just how attractive he is for those reasons).

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Bill has status, but the other two aren't obvious on tv, maybe they show up better in person.

Yes, some girls are willing to sacrifice physical attraction for other qualities, especially those from more traditional eras/cultures.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Yes, some girls are willing to sacrifice physical attraction for other qualities, especially those from more traditional eras/cultures.

No, they went off and measured this.

Where the cultures are more modern and more egalitarian the differences between male and female preferences widen. Girls want this more.

At first that seems counter-intuitive, but it’s perfectly easily explained.

These are women’s innate instinctive preferences (eg for status).

The more the society gives women the freedom to choose what they want... the more they go get the things they’re instinctively attracted to.

So the higher the education/income of the woman (for example) the more she desires status in her preferred mate choice. Similarly the gender gap here is wider in the Scandinavian countries than in sub-Saharan Africa. The more women have the ability to choose, the more they follow their innate preferences.

Here is the meta analysis of the studies I’m referring to...

https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/16932/3/FullText.docx

Economic resources. Women’s preference for men with economic resources has been abundantly supported by dozens of studies. The 37-culture study found that women valued long-term mates who had ‘good financial prospects’ more than did men (Buss, 1989a). The universality of this mate preference spans across cultures with different mating systems (presumptive monogamy versus polygyny), different levels of gender economic equality (e.g., Sweden versus Iran), and different religious orientations (e.g., Muslim, Jewish, Christian, atheist).

[...]

Buss (1989b) provided a more systematic set of tests of the social role theory explanation. In one test, he identified women who were financially successful, as measured by their salary and income, and contrasted their preferences in a mate with those of women with lower salaries and income (Buss, 1989b). The financially successful women were well educated, tended to hold professional degrees, and had high self-esteem. Successful women turned out to place an even greater value than less professionally successful women on mates who have professional degrees, high social status, and greater intelligence and who are tall, independent, and self-confident. Women’s personal income was positively correlated with the income they wanted in an ideal mate (+.31), the desire for a mate who is a college graduate (+.29), and the desire for a mate with a professional degree (+.35). Contrary to the social role/structural powerlessness hypothesis, these women expressed an even stronger preference for high-earning men than did women who are less financially successful.

[...]

In a second test, Buss (1989b) correlated two culture-wide indicators of gender economic inequality with the magnitude of sex differences on preferences for mates with good earning capacity across 30 cultures. Neither indicator of gender economic of educational inequality correlated significantly with the magnitude of gender difference in this mate preference.

[...]

Subsequent studies have continued to fail to find support for social role theory of sex differences in mating strategies. Cross-cultural studies consistently find small but positive relationships between women’s personal access to economic resources and preferences for mates with resources. A study of 1,670 Spanish women seeking mates through personal advertisements found that women with more resources and status were more likely to seek men with resources and status (Gil-Burmann, Pelaez, & Sanchez, 2002). A study of 288 Jordanians found that both women and men with high socioeconomic status place more, not less, value on the mate characteristics of having a college graduate degree and being ambitious-industrious (Khallad, 2005). A study of 127 individuals from Serbia concluded: “The high status of women correlated positively with their concern with a potential mate’s potential socio-economic status, contrary to the prediction of the socio-structural model” (Todosijevic, Ljubinkovic, & Arancic, 2003, p. 116). Other large-scale cross-cultural studies fail to find support for the structural powerlessness hypothesis or social role theory (Lippa, 2009; Schmitt, 2012; Schmitt et al., 2009; but see also Zentner & Eagly, 2015). More generally, a common finding across many studies is that sex differences tend to be larger in more gender egalitarian cultures (e.g., Stoet & Geary, 2018; Schmitt, 2014), in direct contradiction to predictions from the social role theory.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They also meet in the 30's. Meaning men at 30 have the most equal chance with 30 year old women.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

to quote on mobile you open the 'reply' tab and click on the top right corner of the tab, then select the text you wanna quote. A popup will show you the "quote" option.

[–]SmurfESmurferson0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

For some reason, it doesn't work with OPs, just other replies

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Click in "add a comment" into a post.

The title of the OP will show up at the top.

There is a big "V" on the right of the title.

In there you will see the body of the OP post.

Select the text you wanna quote.

The quote popup will show.

(I am considering you are using the official reddit app)

[–][deleted] 58 points59 points  (130 children) | Copy Link

The thing about the advice given to RP men and women is that it produces a very particular type of relationship. Men may find a early 20s woman most attractive for LTR but most of our decisions aren't (and shouldn't) be made purely on instinct. The fact is the average educated man in his early 30s find early 20s women annoying.

Telling RPW to snag up a man while they're in their early 20s is dooming them to snagging the type of man that either hasn't matured, values beauty much more than compatibility and/or values having the upper hand in a relationship. This advice is a sure way to end up dumped and upgraded once you've aged and your man who values beauty over compatibility is out chasing younger prettier women.

[–]chaddad900023 points24 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

The fact is the average educated man in his early 30s find early 20s women annoying.

I'll just say there is a certain type of woman person who has their shit together and is going places. And there's other types of people who hit 30 with their life a mess and are going nowhere and are just looking for a safe landing.

The thing is the former type doesn't stay in the SMP for very long. Men recognize their value and lock them down. So this date young women stuff is not just about tight butts and perky tits, it is a very practical strategy that you need to find them before someone else does.

[–]rightmeow6 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

The thing is the former type doesn't stay in the SMP for very long. Men recognize their value and lock them down.

i tried to say this in another thread and some girl accused me of being a man lol. but yes, this exactly. so many people in their 20s don't have their shit together. being attractive, financially responsible, having interesting opinions (not just MSM regurgitation), and actual hobbies and friends...and BAM you're going to be very attractive to the a large group of men almost immediately.

[–]chaddad90004 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right, I remember having a convo with some lady friends about why don't you date women your own age. Well none of them were single!

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave7 points8 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

I thought rp said men don’t care either way about a woman’s career or success or having their shit together.

[–]chaddad900014 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Retard Pill men say that.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok 👌

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought rp said men don’t care either way about a woman’s career or success

They don't care about it for sexual strategy. But they don't want to get married so it's not a deal breaker if she's hot but lowly paid.

RP men who want to marry also take RMV into account and being productive in a relationship is important. So whether she earns a lot or is successful doesn't make a man want to sleep with her more. What's more important is how she takes care of herself and how she treats him.

having their shit together.

Doesn't matter for short term relationships. RP tells men marriage is bad so if she's a mess at 22, he'll dump her before she becomes a liability and move on. If he wants to get married, he has to see things differently.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

you're correct. only poorfags want a CareerWoman

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Only men who aren’t capable of having a career bitch about career women.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

that doesn't make any sense. the men who claim to want a woman with a good job are generally poorer men who imagine that if they found a CareerWoman then her income would allow them to buy a bass boat or new rims or whatever poors spend their money on.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why then do men with successful careers more often than not marry women with careers?

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

because they're in the same social classes, same social circles, and have more opportunities to meet and interact with each other. male lawyers don't marry female lawyers because they want to marry a lawyer, it's because a lot of the women who he will meet will happen to be lawyers.

[–]chaddad90000 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Or a someone who goes into a nice cushy office to make powerpoints while surfing facebook and shopping sites with good maternity benefits and no grabass managers, versus someone who spends all day on her feet or smells like the fast food establishment she works for.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

when people talk about CareerWomen™ they're not really talking about women who are half-assing it at some pointless office job. they really mean the very ambitious, type A personality women working as lawyers and shit who come home all stressed out and exhausted.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then the issue is her personality not her having a job.

Not buying that this is their issue but thanks for trying.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

well pretty much every woman has a job in 2019. but there's a huge difference between a woman who has a low key hobby job and a woman who has a stressful, exhausting, high pressure job

[–]chaddad90000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay, right I wouldn't want to be with a lawyer who has to bill 70 hours a week or whatever.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

We aren’t attracted to those things and are more willing to carry the team to have attraction to our partner . They could be useful things but do nothing for our boners

OTOH these things add to status and perceived value to men in ways that affect sexual attraction , although I’m in no way saying stem lords are peak Chad

[–]chaddad90002 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My point was some women have high SMV and high RMV. You have to find them when they're young. Those that have both disappear quickly from the SMP because because. As much as I'd like the world to revolve around my penis, its a fact. Take em when you get em or don't. The ones you want end up taken.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

yes youre right im not arguing i was clarifying for u/thisisjustatribute

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The smartest men find those certain kinds of women with their shit already together or the potential to have their shit together and tight butts and perky tits

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yepp, call it post-nut clarity or whatever but you don't know you've got that high RMV woman until you've got em.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Birds of a feather.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man17 points18 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

The fact is the average educated man in his early 30s find early 20s women annoying.

the average educated man in his 30s is full of shit because most of those guys are not having sex or relationships with early 20s women.

whenever a man says something about preferring an older woman close to his age because she is more mature or at the same stage in life or they have more in common, etc. it's just a rationalization. it's a solid tell that they guy saying that stuff doesn't have the option of relationships with younger women.

ALL women, regardless of age, can be unbelievably annoying. ALL women, regardless of age, will say the most unbelievably retarded things from time to time.

and in my personal experience, i definitely prefer being with a younger woman who likes musicians i've never heard of versus a woman who is the same age as me but bitter, jaded, anxious, and neurotic because she has baby rabies but is running out of time to get married and have kids.

also, it's incorrect to assume that a man and a woman of similar age will automatically be more compatible than when there is an age difference. it's going to vary from one individual to the next, it's retarded to assume that a particular 35 year old man will automatically be more compatible with a 35 year old woman than with a 22 year old. real life doesn't work that way.

this issue is further biased by the fact that older women have a VERY STRONG motivation to encourage high value older men to date women of their same age, instead of bypassing them for younger women. these near-wall and post-wall women understand that their only chance of locking down a high value guy won't happen if the high value guy acts in his best interest (and ends up with a younger women). so these women really try to shame age-differences and push all this BS about compatibility and maturity.

[–]heycool-5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You make good points. I agree, many of the comments here are saying people aren’t compatible based on a number.

[–]maplehobo5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is spot on

[–]OfSpock-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

older women have a VERY STRONG motivation to encourage high value older men to date women of their same age

They feel for the young women.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Self-serving rationalization.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel for them, especially my daughter, to whose father I am still married. She's quit at least two hobbies because old guys kept flirting with her. She's rejoined Scouts (at Rover level) at least partly because they don't allow old guys there.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mixed age groups are terrible for young women who are not looking for sugar daddies. At least young guys are less ballsy and give up after the first 'no'.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

they feel jealous that the young women may "steal" all the high value older guys

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm married and it still grosses me out, I remember how it made me feel when I was young.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew5 points6 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

we just refer to all of that as "men"

who are these fictional men you are describing who are not "like that"

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

All men value looks more than compatibility. The degree to which they do varies though. As a woman whose looks will fade it benefits you to choose a husband who places a higher importance on compatibility as opposed to a man who places lower importance on compatibility (even if both of them will technically always place more importance on looks than anything).

[–]donkeydodoI think, therefore I am - No pill, only human15 points16 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

All men value looks more than compatibility.

Weird, I'm a man and I don't. A woman's look may be attractive, but it's her intellect that'd make me stay

[–]Throwuhwaiy 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Dont be ridic. You're obviously not a real man or you'd conform to RP rules.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

They really need a better argument than “well he’s not a REAL man, then” fallacy.

[–]Throwuhwaiy 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

I love my fake man. And I think I'll be able to love him for a really long time and even when we are both old and wrinkly (but still pretty sharp).

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nice.

Yeah it’s super weird because as a “quite old female” over 28, I have a lot of desire for my “undesirable” man who committed to me, more than prior partners 🤷‍♀️ isn’t life interesting?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because bluepillers aren't the champions of the no true scotsman fallacy.

[–]forestpunk6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also a man. Also value compatability and personality more than looks. and don't fucking gatekeep me with that 'not a real man' bullshit. I've had enough of that horseshit for several lifetimes.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

it benefits you to choose a husband who places a higher importance on compatibility

a nonexistent man

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There's a lot of leeway between avid players and church going family men. All men are dogs sure but you're better off picking one that's house trained.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

❤️I love this lol.

[–]EsauTheRed0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Who house trained him?

[–]rus9384Misanthrope-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Unicorns should have a skyhigh market value.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

They do but they’re so rare that they’re virtually non-existent.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Close to unicorns exist but they can’t be real...guys want a hot chick who is suuuuuper chill, and they may find one who is super chill, for a woman, but she’ll still never be as chill as a chill guy.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

“Super chill” is a relative term. They’re specifying a type of chill, just like “unicorn” is identifying a specific type of person, like a hot virgin guy with excellent social skills.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Right, I’m just saying that even the hot cool virgin will at some point be “female” and more uptight than the guy. And she should be, nature made it that way for a reason.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

“Uptight” is also a relative term. The point is that anyone can be someones unicorn because it’s all about perspective.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Unicorns have no market value because they dont exist

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I meant potential.

[–]crunk_dogPurple Pill Man4 points5 points  (47 children) | Copy Link

way too many assumptions in this reply. Early 20s women are not necessarily annoying. Snagging a man in your early 20s is not necessarily dooming for any of the reasons you posted, i know many couple who have been together since early-mid twenties and are decades into their marriage.

[–]CatchPhrazeRed is For Rudolph25 points26 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The facts don't lie, couples who get together or get married in their 30's with less then 4 years between them last the longest. Hell almost twice the success rate of late teen/early 20's couples and more then double the success rate of couples with a 8+ year age gap/

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You can't have a discussion about age at marriage and long-term marriage success rate without including education level.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good objection.

Assuming that the most stable couples come from a college environment (and I think they do), and are usually matches between people of similar age (because they enter college around the same time and visit the same lectures), then it's kinda phony to attribute the relationship stability to the narrow age gap first and most.

[–]EsauTheRed3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One of the things I've learned in my life is that statistics are moving targets, what is true for one generation (on which the statistics are based) may not be true for another

Best example of this is educational attainment for millennials

[–]TheLongerCon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Educational attainment is an enormous confonding variable.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (39 children) | Copy Link

Whenever older men claim women in their early 20s aren't annoying my response is to always ask them how many early 20s male friends they have. Even the shortest glance into regular society shows you that most people in their 30s have little to no interest in hanging around college kids because they have nothing in common.

The average man in his 30s is gonna have much more in common with women in their late twenties. If you're a woman in your early twenties the 30 yo men you attract are "generally" going to be ones that value your looks more than they value your compatibility.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing20 points21 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

Most of the men here who are saying a woman in her early 20's are annoying are virtue signaling to save face over the fact that they are invisible to that group of women.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I would argue that this is more sour grapes than virtue signalling.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have no idea I am not a dude saying early 20's chicks are not good enough for me.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, don't get me wrong, you're most likely right.

It's just that that "if I can't get young hot women, I'll pretend I don't want them anyway" (sour grapes) and "if I say I don't want young hot women, maybe I can ingratiate myself with others who expect that of me" (virtue signalling) are two different motives. Though they probably go hand in hand.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

How many men in their 30s hang out with men in their early 20s? They don't, because they have no reason to. I'm in my early 20s and certainly feel out of place with people in their 30s, and if one of my friends brought over an 18 yo girlfriend I promise you the group would find her out of place.

[–]mwait4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My friend group has guys from 22 to 33-34yo. We all enjoy grabbing a drink and taking shit and hanging out.

This isn't exactly uncommon.

[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have some early 20s friends in hobby groups

Much like the early 20s women, they are sort of directionless and do well when given leadership and structure. Typically my friendships with men my own age would be more egalitarian, whereas with the younger guys I have to lead a bit more to get things done

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think it depends, people of different ages can bond over a shared activity they enjoy.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say it never happens. Men in their 30s "generally" dont befriend younger men, and if they cared about compatibility they "generally" wouldn't date younger women.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am a chick so I am not going to say who the dudes are going to date but I know guys who like hunting or cars who do stuff with other guys of varying age ranges.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely. I personally find women my age or around my age much more annoying than women in their early 20s. Those at least have tight bodies and nice smelling vaginas.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Okay but I do not care because that is not the arguement I was making.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I know, but I wanted to trigger post wall women thinking "they still got it".

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay I still don't care.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I get it every night? You?

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

nice smelling vaginas

Dafuq?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

What?

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Foul smelling vag has nothing to do with age and everything to do with how a woman takes care of herself.

But yes tell me again about all that 20 something p* you slay. 🙄

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I could tell but would you care? I think not.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nope.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

OK, I am making no claim of having a science article here on vagina odour.

But....

Given how other mammals extremely frequently use vaginal secretions and odours to signal fertility.

And given how human males are highly incentivised to evolve any mechanism that would allow them to distinguish between fertile and non fertile women.

And given therfore that the genes for doing this must be lying around ready to be used in the human genome....

Then I would not be at all surprised that if they did a “double blind study” they would find that men prefer heavily the odour of young vaginas over odour from old vaginas AND that to women these would smell functionally identical, only the men would “prefer” one to the other.

It would have nothing to do with bad hygenine. It would have everything to do with men having evolved a preference for tiny changes in the vaginal flora that they can detect that signal “post-menopausal” from “pre-menopausal”.

I’m not going to go googling this one.

But, this would not surprise me one bit of someone pulled a study out their ass on this one. It fits perfectly with known evolved behaviours in other mammals.

Just sayin.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

I think it's more of a cope, not a virtue. It isn't particularly virtuous to call 20 something year old women annoying.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why don't you have male friends in their early 20s then if they aren't annoying?

[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because I'm not interested in fucking them. (or men of any age)

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Huh? Who is to say I don't have male friends in their 20s?

My point being that calling 20 something year old people "annoying" isn't something particularly virtuous, therefore it isn't "virtue signalling."

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It is virtue signalling if you claim to value intellectual depth (of more mature women) over sexual attractiveness (of young hot tight women).

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Valuing intellect is different than disparaging all young women as annoying. One is virtuous, the other is not.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I did not call them annoying, some dudes have or that was what I got out of their protestations.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I wasn't talking about you. I am saying that when someone, anyone, is calling 20 something year olds "annoying" it isn't particularly virtuous, therefore it isn't "virtue signalling."

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yah I understand.

[–]officerkondoRedder Shade of Purple Man-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You'll not hear that from me. I'm 43 and my girlfriend of three years is 25.

[–]chaddad90006 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

IMO its not really weird for people in the 22-34 single young professional demographic to hang-around together because we all tend have similar interests. When I was in my 20s, i certainly didn't think it was weird that slightly older guys were around.

Judging by various girlfriends' friends, guys in their early 20s often don't have their shit together and are more interested in xbox and bonghits -- I know I didn't have my shit going at 23. There seems to be an enormous maturity difference between women and men at that age.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's more that women care about men's maturity and men don't care either way. Men can make their own money and don't really care if women do or not, women care too much about it even though they can make their own money now.

[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Having things in common matters very little

What matters is having a compatible personality

Also as a guy, basically you lead in a relationship so even if you don’t have any things in common with her at the outset she’ll pick up on the shit you do, well she will if it’s cool and intetesting anyway

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Granted I should have worded that better. By "things in common" i meant more like, maturity levels in common, priorities in common, life goals, general attitudes etc.

[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Disagree, basically what matters is just how you interact w each other. If you have a good connection, then all the rest falls in line behind that. She will reshape her values priorities attitudes etc in the first few months of knowing a guy and trying to live up to his standards

[–]heycool-1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is all just generalizations based on a number. I have a group of friends in their 30s I hangout with, and I have a group of early 20 somethings that our my college buddies. We all get along and have fun, regardless of age. We’re just compatible people that have fun spending time together.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Were they early 20s women/35 year old men pairings?

[–]Nodoxxintoxin1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And? I’m an outlier in the opposite direction, woman who didn’t get married till mid 30’s to a guy who didn’t get married till early 40’s. Of course outliers exist. I wouldn’t recommend anyone wait as long as either of us did, but it’s equally foolish to try and recommend people marry too young. Divorce rates are hella high.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

The thing about the advice given to RP men and women is that it produces a very particular type of relationship.

One that conforms to what men want ?

Men may find a early 20s woman most attractive for LTR but most of our decisions aren't (and shouldn't) be made purely on instinct.

They aren’t. They’re made by rational brains weighing the options (for something as serious as an LTR/Marriage). But this is the background such decisions play out on... and that has very real implications for how the SMP changes as men and women age.

The fact is the average educated man in his early 30s find early 20s women annoying.

Then don’t settle down with the girl you find annoying. Plenty of non-annoying early 20s girls to choose from if you’re 30-35.

Telling RPW to snag up a man while they're in their early 20s is dooming them to snagging the type of man that either hasn't matured, values beauty much more than compatibility and/or values having the upper hand in a relationship.

I suspect that’s wrong, but an RPW should answer why. I’d only fuck it up.

This advice is a sure way to end up dumped and upgraded once you've aged and your man who values beauty over compatibility is out chasing younger prettier women.

Again, I’m pretty sure thats wrong. But this is tactical/strategic advice for girls. Only an RPW could convincingly explain why the cost/benefits of their strategies work the way they do.

It’s just that the science seems to support their contention that “the best time to snag a guy is at your highest value” and that “your highest value for LT mating is roughly 21-25”.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

I don't think anyone has ever argued that men don't find early 20s women the most sexually attractive. To what extent this knowledge should impact our dating strategies is another matter entirely.

One that conforms to what men want ?

Perhaps, but I'm not a man so I don't know what men want and don't care to give men what they want. RPW should focus on what is an optimal strategy for women. I've given a good reason for why trying to find older men in your early twenties will attract a very particular type of man generally and that type of man is generally not optimal for marriage.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 7 points8 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I don't think anyone has ever argued that men don't find early 20s women the most sexually attractive.

Oh women argue this all the time. They assume male attraction is patterned like theirs. It’s not uncommon for them to say “but it depends on the woman. I know this 50 yo who is very attractive, much more attractive than most 25 yo’s”.

Looking through girls eyes, she is. Looking through guys eyes, she so completely is not as attractive.

Perhaps, but I'm not a man so I don't know what men want and don't care to give men what they want.

That’s OK. You aren’t supposed to give it to them. They’re just going to take it.

RPW should focus on what is an optimal strategy for women.

This information is critical to working out what a woman’s optimal strategy is.

I've given a good reason for why trying to find older men in your early twenties will attract a very particular type of man generally

Yes, that particular type of man is.... “a standard man”.

And if you’re interested in him that means he’s probably also a “desirable standard man”.

that type of man is generally not optimal for marriage.

Again, no.

You’re assuming that a man aged 35 dating 25 yo’s has the “personality type a 35yo woman dating 25yo men” would have. That’s not what they have. We’re configured differently.

The “woman” you are describing here is a non-standard women with lots of negative faults. But the “man” described here is just a standard man, and almost certainly a highly desirable one if you are considering marrying up that far in age. If he wasn’t, you’d marry the more standard 2-3yrs up instead.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

This information is critical to working out what a woman’s optimal strategy is.

I agree.

You’re assuming that a man aged 35 dating 25 yo’s has the “personality type a 35yo woman dating 25yo men” would have. That’s not what they have. We’re configured differently.

No that's not my assumption at all. I've made 2 assumptions:

Men in their 30s are more compatible with women closer to their age.

Well adjusted marriage-material men choose a life partner based off more than just sex appeal, in fact they recognise compatibility is more important in the long term than sex appeal.

Which of these 2 is incorrect?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Men in their 30s are more compatible with women closer to their age.

There is no reason to think this is true. This is true of women. I don’t think this is true of men.

E.g......The average “age gap” men would feel happy to date within (the study had an N of about 40k)...

Average age men are comfortable dating relative to their own age

You’re making assumptions valid for women (see below) but not for men...

Average age women are comfortable dating relative to their own age

This is exactly what I meant by “your assumptions, patterned on women’s desires, are off”.

Well adjusted marriage-material men choose a life partner based off more than just sex appeal, in fact they recognise compatibility is more important in the long term than sex appeal.

Yes but, AGAIN .... Men’s notions of “what is compatible” are very different from a woman’s.

A 35yo woman finds “up in age 10 years, down 3” to be the typical “compatible man for me”.

A 35 yo man finds “down in age 10 years and up in age 1 year compatible for me”.

You’re assuming men have your female mind state. They don’t. In the same way women find older men compatible (but much younger men not).... men find younger women compatible (but older women not).

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I said that men are more compatible with women their own age but will trade compatibility for sex appeal. And you tried to prove me wrong by showing me data on men actively trading compatibility for sex appeal?

The fact men will date a woman 10 years younger doesn't mean he's more compatible with her than a woman his own age, it means he finds her more attractive and cares about sex appeal more than compatibility.

Men don't date younger women because of their compatibility they date them inspite of their incompatibility.

The age gap men "would feel happy to date" is not the age gap that is most optimal for a life long relationship.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I said that men are more compatible with women their own age but will trade compatibility for sex appeal. And you tried to prove me wrong by showing me data on men actively trading compatibility for sex appeal

No I showed you data about what age ranges “men consider compatible” and what “women consider compatible” and how they differ by sex.

A woman would not find a man 8 years younger “compatible” but she would find a man 8 years older so.

Well, for men that works in reverse.

These are specifically the age ranges they gave when asked “what age ranges do you consider to be compatible enough to date” basically. The white areas are the areas they designated as “top young/old to date”.

The fact men will date a woman 10 years younger doesn't mean he's more compatible with her than a woman his own age, it means he finds her more attractive and cares about sex appeal more than compatibility.

No. These men and women were not answering concerning an actual man/woman in front of them who is sexy/not sexy.

They were asked to give an age range they’d be comfortable dating within for people of all levels of beauty/status/whatever. They’re happy that people within those age ranges are those they’d have “compatibility” with.

Men don't date younger women because of their compatibility they date them inspite of their incompatibility.

No, they don’t date the women outside these margins because they’re incompatible.

So if they answered 8 down, yes.... but 9 down, no... that wasn’t because the 9 down was “less sexy”. She was still more sexy than the 8 down. It’s just at that point they believed the incompatibility would be too high to overcome the increased “sexiness”.

The 60 yo answering “10 down” still found the 40 yo sexier than the 50 yo, and the 30 yo sexier than her etc etc. All the way down to 25.

Where they cut off was where the compatibility difference was too great.

The age gap men "would feel happy to date" is not the age gap that is most optimal for a life long relationship.

Says who ?

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The two of you are using the word compatibility differently. Compatible doesn’t just mean “find sexy” it means have things in common. The tv shows that came on when you were a kid. The music that was popular during your prom. People the same age are culturally compatible in a way they are not with people a decade younger. My partner is 13 years older than I am, and in many ways we are not compatible. There are references I make that he doesn’t get the way my same aged friends do. There is music I love that he will always think is stupid because it doesn’t hold nostalgia for him in the way it does for me. He often talks about older tv shows and artists who I’ve never heard of. He traded having all that for looks and youth when persuing me, there are many things we do not have in common, it all depends on what you put value in. Personally I don’t think pop culture mismatch is a dealbreaker and don’t care. But my youth didn’t make me more compatible than a woman closer to his age, far from it.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The two of you are using the word compatibility differently. Compatible doesn’t just mean “find sexy” it means have things in common. The tv shows that came on when you were a kid. The music that was popular during your prom. People the same age are culturally compatible in a way they are not with people a decade younger.

Or another way of saying this exact same thing is people are culturally compatible with people within a decade. Which is all I'm claiming here.

I'm not claiming guys can go 15-20-30 years down. I'm claiming the grey areas on those charts. Thats approx 8-12 years down for males, and puts what I'm claiming solidly within the same "culturally compatible" decade you also agree is relevant.

My partner is 13 years older than I am, and in many ways we are not compatible. There are references I make that he doesn’t get the way my same aged friends do. There is music I love that he will always think is stupid because it doesn’t hold nostalgia for him in the way it does for me. He often talks about older tv shows and artists who I’ve never heard of.

My wife is 4 years younger than me, and I do all those things too.

He traded having all that for looks and youth when persuing me, there are many things we do not have in common, it all depends on what you put value in. Personally I don’t think pop culture mismatch is a dealbreaker and don’t care. But my youth didn’t make me more compatible than a woman closer to his age, far from it.

Yes, I think there are gaps that are really very far, possibly too far to over come.... 15-20-30 years gaps.

It's just that the gaps we are actually talking about... which in most cases are 10 years or under.... are perfectly bridgable.

Even when they're over that they tend to be MUCH later in life when that pop culture compatibility loses it's salience (a 35 yo dating a 25 yo feels it in a way that a 60 yo dating a 50 yo doesn't so much)

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The examples you talk about are very real but as you say ultimately trivial compared to shared values. IE how to raise kids, religion etc

I'd put my money on two republican christians who believe in evolution and find trump distasteful of ages 23-35 (either gender lol) over a 33-35 year old pair with one republican trump supporter and another democrat trump hater

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

hot take: "compatibility" is a myth, humans evolved in gatherer-hunter tribes where men went off in bands hunting for days, weeks, months at a time while women, children and olds gathered and took care of campsites.

This "need to be compatible with living together permanently" is relatively new

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You keep missing my point because you cannot realise that what men/women want does not necessarily equal what is optimal for a relationship.

The 60 yo answering “10 down” still found the 40 yo sexier than the 50 yo, and the 30 yo sexier than her etc etc. All the way down to 25.

Yup that is my entire point once again. Men ideally want a partner that is compatible and is sexy, they date younger women even though they are less compatible because they value sex appeal more than compatibility "up to a point". There gets a point where nor matter how sexy a woman is she is too incompatible to bother. My entire argument was that as a woman you're better off choosing a man for whom that "point" comes sooner rather than later.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yup that is my entire point once again. Men ideally want a partner that is compatible and is sexy, they date younger women even though they are less compatible because they value sex appeal more than compatibility "up to a point".

Yes, and those graphs indicate where that point is quite precisely (at least on average).

There gets a point where nor matter how sexy a woman is she is too incompatible to bother.

Yes, the white areas on both Male and female graphs

My entire argument was that as a woman you're better off choosing a man for whom that "point" comes sooner rather than later.

Yes, both the men and women choose within the grey areas of those graphs.

That varies.

But it’s roughly +10/-2 from their own age for women.... and +2/-10 for men.

And men and women choosing within those ranges are perfectly normal and non-weird men and women with 50% of their sex proposing longer age gaps and 50% proposing lower age gaps.

Within the grey areas you aren’t a “weird man” or a “weird woman” you are a bog standard average man or bog standard average woman.

[–]tuffrakkit 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nice graphs, where is the original source?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Men in their 30s are more compatible with women closer to their age.

wrong.

Well adjusted marriage-material men choose a life partner based off more than just sex appeal, in fact they recognise compatibility is more important in the long term than sex appeal.

what women think men want is not the same what men actually want

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What men want is not what is optimal for a relationship. Women that are most compatible for a man may not be the women his wants thats my entire point.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nope, men know better what is optimal for them. Thousands of years of evolution can not be wrong. But your opinion very well can be. So men are attracted to youth. Younger women, firmer asses and perkier tits.

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

> that type of man is generally not optimal for marriage.

You’re assuming that a man aged 35 dating 25 yo’s has the “personality type a 35yo woman dating 25yo men” would have.

My disagreement with RP doctrine is male RMV actually peaks in your early 30s, certainly not at 36 -- at which time you should have found someone. And actually a 35 yo "never married" man is a certain well known type which relationship-oriented women consider suspect (which is not to say he isn't a good lay).

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well RMV is relative to the women in your market.

I’d say on that basis the lead over women that men open up by 35 lasts the rest of their life.

This is seperate from “can they get 21yo chicks”.

A 35 yo guy has a higher “market power” relative to all women -5 to +5 to his own age. I think that persists forever.

A 55 or 75 yo guy still has that upper hand with the girls -5 to +5 with them too.

[–]chaddad90000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right, not disagreeing with the age ranges. Just that I was thinking about "divorce rape" and realized I know a bunch of guys who were divorced, no kids, no rape. And the guys who were successfully playing the field in their mid/late-30s tend to have already been married, so they "had an excuse". (And have since mostly landed with younger attractive women.)

[–]AstuteBlackManRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The fact is the average educated man in his early 30s find early 20s women annoying.

Yes but they'll have sex with them

[–]heycool-7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Very interesting graph and post. It seems like a great equalizer. Women have the advantage in the beginning, then men get the advantage with time. I’m starting to see this with my experience.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Although I don't have a problem with the general analysis, but I will say that it ignores the r/K problem.

To whit, most people in first world countries are having few children, maybe 2, and then investing a lot in those few children. If your strategy is to invest a lot in few children, then you don't actually need nor necessarily want a much younger women who can produce a larger quantity of lower quality children.

You're correct that a 24 year old woman has a lot more capability to have more children, but the reproductive strategy of have 14 kids and hope 3 of them survive to adulthood doesn't operate anymore in the first world; humans seem to be capable of changing their reproductive strategy according to the modern environment, at least in part.

I see a lot of well educated, high status males marrying women who are 30+ and then they pop out their two kids and invest a lot in them.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

humans seem to be capable of changing their reproductive strategy according to the modern environment, at least in part.

Instincts slowly evolve. There are r men and women. There are K men and women. However, men are more r and women are more K.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There has been an overall change though, which has happened over the course of 100 years. Far too fast for natural selection.

We seem to be adaptive in the short term. Humans have a much more flexible mating strategy than a lot of animals, it seems.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And who argues humans are not adaptive? I'm just saying some insticts still remain.

[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That change in the west has been going on for much longer than 100 years.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin4 points5 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

From your meta analysis :

”the average age preference being a wife 2.66 years younger than oneself—an effect size of d 1.94 relative to women’s preference. This preference ranged from a minimum of 1.22 years younger in Canada to a maximum of 7.35 years younger in Zambia.

Basically men in developed western countries like 2 to 3 years younger, women like 1 to 2 years older, (this is no surprise) so how in the world do you think:

>21-24 is where your value is highest and so women can get the best males for marriage.

A 21 year old woman would ideally be sought for LTR s by men 24 year old men. Assortive mating has most uMc, college educated men married to similarly umc college educated women, and very few umc, college educated men are ready to get married mid twenties these days. In fact the very highest value husbands will typically have advanced degrees , and will still be in school at age 24.

The average age of first marriage for women in 2017 was 27.4 years. For men, it’s slightly older at 29.5 years so 2.1 difference, checks out with what your study says everybody wants, and small age gaps predict lower divorce rates. For college educated women who are getting married even later, there are substantial benefits.

“Women enjoy an annual income premium if they wait until 30 or later to marry. For college-educated women in their midthirties, this premium amounts to $18,152.

Delayed marriage has helped to bring down the divorce rate in the U.S. since the early 1980s because couples who marry in their early twenties and especially their teens are more likely to divorce than couples who marry later.”

Why should a girl even think about looking to settle down at 21? She’d be better off waiting until 27, start to date a 30 year old, and get married at 29 to a guy in his early 30’s

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (24 children) | Copy Link

OK, you're going to have to read the meta-analysis.

First. Age at marriage is a reflection of both male and female preferences. It doesn't matter if 60 yo men want to marry 21 yo, if the 21 yo don't want to marry them.

Marriage data is a combination of preferences not male preferences alone.

The dates I gave for womens "highest LT mate value" come from the graph I put up, which shows "women's reproductive potential" peaking at around this time. From the text surrounding the graph I excerpted...

Reproductive value, on the other hand, refers to future reproductive capacity: the average number of offspring a person can be expected to produce in the future given their age. Counterintuitively, reproductive value is somewhat low very early in life: High early life mortality means that many young people, on average, cannot be expected to live to reproductive age. Reproductive value will typically peak in the late teens and early twenties, after the onset of puberty and when mortality declines (Buss, 1989; e.g., Office of Population Censuses and Surveys [OPCS], 1996; Pawlowski & Dunbar, 1999a). Reproductive value declines continuously thereafter until menopause. Theoretically, the capacity to produce many children over a long span is critical to males interested in longterm, committed mating. Female long-term mate value is highest in the late teens and early twenties and declines gradually thereafter.

and then again in the conclusions...

Does Age Manifest in Human Expressed Preferences?

Yes. Based on the empirical literature reviewed in this article, using multiple studies, multiple methods, multiple cultures, and multiple time periods, expressed age preferences in a mate by men confirm the central hypothesis they closely track reproductive capacity in females.

Where that graph puts females reproductive capacity peak is also their LT value peak. Where the graph places their fecundity peak is their ST value peak.

A 21 year old woman would ideally be sought for LTR s by men 24 year old men. Assortive mating has most uMc, college educated men married to similarly umc college educated women, and very few umc, college educated men are ready to get married mid twenties these days. In fact the very highest value husbands will typically have advanced degrees , and will still be in school at age 24.

Whether males can access them at this time in modern culture is immaterial. This is the evolved instinctive peak men are most attracted to. Their instincts know nothing of modern college admissions schedules.

Men overall find women of this age the most attractive. Not from the study itself, but still pretty compelling data...

The male age females prefer

The female age males prefer

The average age of first marriage for women in 2017 was 27.4 years. For men, it’s slightly older at 29.5 years so 2.1 difference, checks out with what your study says everybody wants, and small age gaps predict lower divorce rates. For college educated women who are getting married even later, there are substantial benefits.

All that may be perfectly true. It doesn't affect the fact that men are instinctively attracted to women aged roughly 21-24 as the most "valuable" mates. Thats an evolved preference.

I'd also add that those age differences are for first marriage only. The age difference at 2nd marriage is 5 years, and at 3rd marriage 10 years. All women younger.

As men and women age.... men increase mate value, and womens declines, and this enables older men to open up the wider age gaps they want to reach as close down to "early twenties" as they can.

Delayed marriage has helped to bring down the divorce rate in the U.S. since the early 1980s because couples who marry in their early twenties and especially their teens are more likely to divorce than couples who marry later.”

Again, this has nothing to do with what I am saying, or what "The Wall" is. People aren;t deciding to "get married this year because it's when the divorce stats say it's the best year for us to get married". They're getting married when they find themselves attracted to a woman high enough in mate value to want to be married to.

This is all true, whether teens getting married at 16 have the lowest divorce rate.... or octogenerians... or people with no gap, a 10 year gap, whatever.

What humans are attracted to in the other sex is beside any statistical liklihood of "when the best time to marry is in order to prevent divorce". Thats not how it works.

Why should a girl even think about looking to settle down at 21?

Well, if I could just adjust that to 21-24.... Because her mate value is at it's highest then, and so she'll be able to attract the most desirable males to her then.... nor does she have to marry right then. If she "snags" a guy then and marries him 3 years later at 24-27 thats fine too. She got the best guy she could, at the point she had the highest value to guys... meaning that was probably the very best male she could ever get.

The longer she leaves it, the more her LT mate value declines, and the more the highly desirable males will pass over her to her younger sister....leaving her with progressive lower and lower value guys interested as she ages.

She’d be better off waiting until 27, start to date a 30 year old, and get married at 29 to a guy in his early 30’s

If she did, she'd already have lost (checking the chart) approx. 40% of her long term mate value by 27. The guy she is likely to attract then is (statistically over millions of women) likely to be a lower value guy. Not "as desirable as" the man she could have got 4-5 years earlier with her correspondingly higher mate value.

Look, you might have to go and actually read the article if you want to argue in this level of detail.... because you're going to need to understand it (not just my summary in OP) to do so.

Once you do so, you'll see what objections are valid and what are not.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin2 points3 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

“Looks best to” =/= “Wants to marry”. Wants to marry is a relatively small age gap and that , according to you meta analysis is pretty consistent over time and culture. Quite small in fact in developed countries.

“They're getting married when they find themselves attracted to a woman high enough in mate value to want to be married to”

No, they are not. If they were then we would see lots of mid 20’s young men married to early 20’s women. We haven’t seen that in 5 decades in the west.

And what age are the men that the 21 year old women pairing up with? Statistically the guys marrying young women are also younger less educated guys, not guys with advanced degrees. Educated men marry early thirties and they marry college educated women in their late twenties. That’s just a fact, not what they are suppose to do based on research. And that’s not over millions of women, that’s what is happening in the west among UMC people right now. Your advice might be great for a third world woman or a prole.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (22 children) | Copy Link

Looks best to” =/= “Wants to marry”. Wants to marry is a relatively small age gap and that , according to you meta analysis is pretty consistent over time and culture. Quite small in fact in developed countries.

Again, because a marriage is a compromise between his and her preferences.

Perhaps you want to sell your antique vase for $10k. Perhaps the buyer wants to spend $1k. When it’s sold perhaps you compromise your preferences at $6k.

That doesn’t mean that the sellers preference was for a $6k price. It wasn’t. It was $10k. If you surveyed the seller they would have told you that was their preference. The fact that it sold at $6k indicates a compromise between preferences, not that this was the sellers preference all along.

Marriage data is “the sold price”.

No, they are not. If they were then we would see lots of mid 20’s young men married to early 20’s women. We haven’t seen that in 5 decades in the west.

As I understand it the average age of first marriage in the west is currently about 29 for men and 26/27 for women.

Marriages happen 3 years (Average) after the two entered into an LTR together. That’s when they were “selected”.

That would place the average age of a woman’s “selection” as a wife candidate about 23-24. Which aligns perfectly well with the peak of her LT attractiveness.

Even in the West were still seeing behaviour that aligns perfectly well with this data and these studies.

And what age are the men that the 21 year old women pairing up with?

Given a 21 yo preferences, and the fact at that age she has all the market power sufficient to push the “sold price” in her direction.... I’d guess mainly guys 22-26.

Statistically the guys marrying young women are also younger less educated guys, not guys with advanced degrees. Educated men marry early thirties and they marry college educated women in their late twenties.

What has education level got to do with it ? We’re talking instinctive preference. That will be the same if they’re college grads or high school dropouts. Perhaps the college grads don’t act on that preference as they have “other things going on”. But the preference is still there.

That’s just a fact, not what they are suppose to do based on research. And that’s not over millions of women, that’s what is happening in the west among UMC people right now. Your advice might be great for a third world woman or a prole.

What advice ? I haven’t offered women any advice on this thread. That’s up to the RPWs to do. You’re reading “advice” into a basic description of “the facts”.

There are many ways to use these facts to get what you want.

That doesn’t alter the fact that women’s peak LTmate value is around 24.

This data describes the landscape how it is. How women navigate this landscape is up to them, and I’ll let the RPWs advise on how to do that. I’m just showing the landscape as the science has shown it exists.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin3 points4 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Again, stop saying the age gap is a compromise. He typically wants 2 to 3 years younger while she wants 1 to 2 years older. The more developed the country, the smaller the DESIRED gap. This is from your own meta study. Actual gap? 2.1 years. Not a huge compromise.

I cited the exact ages above for the US, 27.4 for women, 29.5 for men. That is for ALL couples. Highly educated couples are marrying LATER. What does education level have to do with it? Lots. You keep going on about a woman’s highest mate value. What we have in developed western countries is assortive mating where highly educated marry highly educated. That’s a fact, not what any study says SHOULD be a preference based on 20 year old data. Doctors marry other doctors today, not 21 year olds OR 27 year olds.

Yes, women at 28, they have lost the ability to have 7 or 8 additional kids. I’m sure that’s a crisis in Zambia or Iran, where age gap preferences are still high. Virtually no one in the west cares about the ability to have 14 kids, except Mormons. They often get married at 21 with the intention of having large families. They typically fail in this endeavor because despite enormous social pressure, they have some of the highest divorce rates of any demographic.

Your advice is girls as young as 21 should start to think about not “wasting their pretty”, where as I stated above if they don’t waste their brains and their early career opportunities and they marry early 30’s instead, their income is 18k higher. And to top it off, they aren’t getting divorced like 60% the people who marry younger than 25. Women maximize not only income, but marriage stability by marrying late 20’s to early 30’s.

And RP “women”? Larpers, trad cons, undereducated women and men who recommend women allow hall passes, have low n counts and give anal on the first date? 😂. No 21 year old woman with a triple digit IQ needs their advice.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

1 of 2

Again, stop saying the age gap is a compromise. He typically wants 2 to 3 years younger while she wants 1 to 2 years older. The more developed the country, the smaller the DESIRED gap. This is from your own meta study. Actual gap? 2.1 years. Not a huge compromise

Are we reading the same study ?

The 2.99 year average age difference between spouses found in Buss (1989) corresponds well to women’s preference that their partners be 3.42 years older than themselves. In fact, the average difference preferred by men and women was the wife 3.04 years younger than her husband, suggesting ac- tual marriage age may represent a compromise between men and women’s desi

[...]

Men are also more likely than their exwives to acquire partners who better match their mate preferences both absolutely and relative to their first partners. These sex differences occur because remarrying men are able to leverage their in- creased age, presumably tracking their on-average increased resource holding potential, into higher mate value and better mate choices. Women’s increased age lowers their overall mate value as a function of decreased fecundity and reproductive value, forcing them to compromise. Coupled with findings indicating that men and women each pre- fer and pursue partners younger and older than themselves, respectively, remarriage data provides evidence that age preferences are robustly mani- fested in mating behavior—a translation of pref- erences into actual matings that is moderated by mate value.

.

I cited the exact ages above for the US, 27.4 for women, 29.5 for men. That is for ALL couples. Highly educated couples are marrying LATER. What does education level have to do with it? Lots. You keep going on about a woman’s highest mate value. What we have in developed western countries is assortive mating where highly educated marry highly educated. That’s a fact, not what any study says SHOULD be a preference based on 20 year old data. Doctors marry other doctors today, not 21 year olds OR 27 year olds.

Yes, higher status women want higher status men. But higher status men want prettier women.

There is nothing you’ve proposed above that’s stop 30 yo doctors marrying 24 yo women.

The fact that they’re higher status may affect the age at which they actually marry but it doesn’t affect their instinctive preference for younger women.

They don’t stop being men just because they’re UMC.

Mate value. Personal age affects the extent to which men and women are able to satisfy their preferences for age because age is an im- portant component of mate value. But age, of course, is not the only component of mate value. If high mate value people are better able to translate their preferences for age into actual mate selections, determinants of mate value in general should predict partner age alongside personal age. Status and resources are relatively important components of male mate value (Buss, 1989; Kenrick et al., 1990; Symons,1979), so men possessing these qualities should be more able than men lacking these qualities to implement their mate preferences in actual mat- ing outcomes. Among 19th century Swedish men, age of wife was a near direct function of the man’s resources, with the youngest wives on average (24.5 years) going to upper-class men who had the most land or largest businesses and progressively older wives going to men of lower classes: 25.0 years, 25.7 years, 26.9 years, and 25.5 years, respectively, for descending re- source classes (Low, 1991). These mate value effects can be so strong that traditional societies like the Tiwi of Australia can at first appear to flout the broader trends of age preferences. Among the Tiwi, young men marry the oldest women, in contrast to their predicted preference for youthful brides. How- ever, this occurs only because the older, highest status men marry the youngest women before younger men get the chance. For Tiwi men under 30, marrying older women is a political strategy: By marrying these women, young men get the political clout and connections they need for the opportunity to marry younger women later in life (Hart, Pilling, & Goodale, 1960; Kenrick, Nieuweboer, & Buunk, 2010). Another interesting source of evidence comes from studies of kings and other men of excep- tionally high status or power. Theoretically, we expect these men to be in the best position to translate their mate preferences into actual mate selections. In the 1700s and 1800s, wealthier men from the Kummerhorn population of Ger- many married younger brides than did men lacking wealth (Voland & Engel, 1990). Histor- ical studies of kings and despots found that they routinely stocked their harems with young, at- tractive, nubile women (Betzig, 1992). The Mo- roccan emperor Moulay Ismail, for example, reportedly sired some 888 children with roughly 500 women. When a woman in his harem reached the age of 30, she was moved out of the emperor’s harem and into a lower-level leader’s harem, and then replaced with a younger wom- an. Roman, Babylonian, Egyptian, Incan, In- dian, and Chinese emperors all apparently shared the preferences of Emperor Ismail and enjoined their trustees to scour their lands for as many pretty young woman as could be found (Betzig, 1992). A subtler prediction concerns the relationship between age and mate preferences. People who embody the age preferences of the opposite sex have more bargaining power on the mating mar- ket and therefore are able to get away with setting higher standards. Theory therefore pre- dicts that these individuals—younger women and older men—would have more stringent mate preferences in general. Munro, Flood, McKellar, and Reudink (2014) analyzed prefer- ences sought as a function of age in a sample of 1,275 female personal advertisements from cit- ies across Canada. They found that younger women placed more emphasis on the resources of potential mates in their ads. In a separate study, women of the highest market value, those closest to peak fecundity and reproductive value, demand the largest number of traits in their personal advertisements (Pawlowski & Dunbar, 1999a). High market value men also demanded more traits in their advertisements with the exception of a single outlier.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

A .42 year compromise? Okay, big compromise . (Eyeroll)

Again, the more developed the country the smaller the desired gap! Canada, men desire 1.2 younger, Zambia and Iran are the highest. Why would any educated western woman care?

Nothing stops 30 year old doctors from marrying 24 year old women at all. But they don’t. Not in the developed west. You can cite all sorts of data from the 1990’s down to the 1700’s It’s not the current rmv. Educated are increasingly marrying those with similar education.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Again, the more developed the country the smaller the desired gap! Canada, men desire 1.2 younger, Zambia and Iran are the highest. Why would any educated western woman care?

Because the result of the study is that “Men in every society are preferentially attracted to women 21-24. These have the highest LT mate value to men”.

That’s the result. The hundreds of data points all through the study support that result.

And it’s a result as applicable to US women’s understanding of reality as it is to Gabonese or Chinese women.

Nothing stops 30 year old doctors from marrying 24 year old women at all. But they don’t. Not in the developed west. You can cite all sorts of data from the 1990’s down to the 1700’s It’s not the current rmv. Educated are increasingly marrying those with similar education.

Who says anything different ? Yes, because women “want to marry men at their educational level and above” that means that men marry women of “their educational level and below”.

It’s not bidirectional. It’s a result of women getting their preferences.

But it’s irrelevant to the argument of where male and female age preferences are.

Educational level has no bearing on this at all really, and I’m not sure why you keep dragging it back in.

Men are attracted to non-promiscuous women for LTRs (for example). I don’t keep dragging that in. It’s not relevant to the age preferences discussion. Nor is your continual restatement of female (but not Male) education preferences.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

2 of 2

Yes, women at 28, they have lost the ability to have 7 or 8 additional kids. I’m sure that’s a crisis in Zambia or Iran, where age gap preferences are still high.

You’re missing the point of the study. Men’s preferences in relation to age are the same across all cultures measured.

Whether Zambia or US they are literally the same.

A qualitatively different form of economic evidence comes from prostitution. Whereas pre- marriage rituals and sugar babying simply track economic exchanges within ongoing relation- ships, prostitution provides a direct economic assay of mating behavior in that money is ex- changed for sexual access. Arunachalam and Shah (2008) report earnings data from a sample of over 4,000 sex workers in Mexico and Ec- uador. Although not discussed by the authors, their data show that the earnings of female sex workers precisely track the age trend of fecun- dity: Earnings are low until they peak in the early-to-midtwenties and gradually decline thereafter. That this trend is linked to fertility is further highlighted by the fact that this age- linked earning trend does not occur for female nonsex workers, whose income peaks in the late 40s (Arunachalam & Shah, 2008). Similar links between age and other cues to women’s fertility have been found in a study of Polish prostitutes (Prokop, Dylewski, Wonza, & Tryjanowski, in press). A study of U.S. female “escorts,” a com- mon euphemism for sexual services, found that younger escorts charged higher fees than older escorts (Griffith, Capiola, Balotti, Hart, & Turner, 2016). The costs of sex are apparently higher for young escorts. A separate sample of 248 Gambian sex work- ers provides convergent evidence (Pickering, Todd, Dunn, Pepin, & Wilkins, 1992). Gambian sex workers under the age of 25 charge the most per contract, slightly above women between 25 and 34 and over 60% more than women above 34. Interestingly, the number of contracts per day does not differ between the three age groups. This shows that younger women are not overvaluing themselves, because men are will- ing to pay their higher premiums. The equiva- lence of contact number across age also reveals key features of male short-term mating psychol- ogy: Men are willing to short-term mate with women regardless of their age, but value access to younger women enough to incur additional costs.

The same pattern was found everywhere, by whatever method. This is just the starkest example of that I can find.

Your advice is girls as young as 21 should start to think about not “wasting their pretty”

That’s not my advice. I don’t advise girls. That’s the RPWs advice.

where as I stated above if they don’t waste their brains and their early career opportunities and they marry early 30’s instead, their income is 18k higher.

Their income doesn’t help them get a better husband. Men aren’t interested in female income in the way females are interested in male income.

This may help them “in their general life”, but in a sexual strategy context this is no help at all.

And to top it off, they aren’t getting divorced like 60% the people who marry younger than 25. Women maximize not only income, but marriage stability by marrying late 20’s to early 30’s.

Again. I’m not saying they should marry at 25.

I’m saying that’s their point of highest value. If they “snag” a man at that point (who may only be their husband 5 years later) they’re probably getting the best man they could possibly get.

The longer they leave it post-24 before they “snag” that man the lower quality that man is likely to be.

What I’m saying is only loosely related to “the age at which you actually tie the knot”. It’s extremely tightly tied to “the best age to get that man you’ll eventually tie the knot with”. Whether the ceremony happens that day, or 3 or 5 or 20 years later.

And RP “women”? Larpers, trad cons, undereducated women and men who recommend women allow hall passes, have low n counts and give anal on the first date? 😂.

Hahahahha. You obviously haven’t chatted to the RPWs round here. That’s definitely not the advice Atlas, or LKF, or anothergunnut, or any of thenold RPW mod/EC team would give. Lol.

No 21 year old woman with a triple digit IQ needs their advice.

I think they’re a lot better at this than you’d give them credit for. And I also think that many more 21 yo’s would benefit from good advice reflective of reality than you give them credit for.

But, lol, if you think that advice is “anal on the first date” and “let your boyfriend cheat as much as he wants”.

That’s probably what the RPM would advise women (because they’re hilariously self-centred), not the RPW.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You just posted preferences for hookers, not wives. Again, who is surprised and who cares?..

“Previous research has suggested that a new marriage gradient has emerged in the United States, with marriage becoming increasingly the privilege of the better-educated.”

“In countries where gender roles are traditional, better-educated women are less likely to be married than less-educated women; in gender-egalitarian countries, better-educated women are more likely to be married”

If you want to get married in the modern western world, then education>youth. And if you want to stay married, education plus age>>>youth

[–]Nodoxxintoxin1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

In rereading this I have to comment:

Their income doesn’t help them get a better husband. Men aren’t interested in female income in the way females are interested in male income. This may help them “in their general life”, but in a sexual strategy context this is no help at all.

Do you really think “better husband” (which I contest, but let’s assume is true) >general life, higher income and greater marriage stability? Talk about bad life pro tips. Yeah, who wants a better overall life when you can just get a better husband?🙄.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

I’m not giving you “life tips”.

I am telling you the reality, as science has measured it, of what males and females find instinctively attractive.

That’s all.

You keep reading it as “TGP tells girls to do X” where that’s not what I’m doing.

If I said “guys are more attracted to blonde hair” then that’s just a fact.

I’m not saying “dye your hair blonde”, or “suck it brunettes!” Or trying to “make myself look good because my wife is blonde” or somehow advising women “to only marry blonde men” or “women should give up education to get blonde hair” or any of the things YOU are reading into this.

It’s just a fact. I share it. It’s up to everyone else to decide how they’re going to use the facts to get what they want.

Nothing about me stating the true fact implies you have to do anything about your hair.

But you literally cannot stop yourself from projecting onto me “all the advice you think I’m giving”. I’m not giving it. It’s all coming out of your head.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin4 points5 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Greasy, your data doesn’t show women anything about our smv we don’t already know. We know by 13 that there are much much older men who find us attractive and by 16 most of our friends dads can be caught giving us a sideways glance. Women don’t care about Smv, we know we are the most physically attractive when 21. We don’t care what age is optimum for hookers, unless we want to be hookers. We can still get laid at 40 with ease. Women care about rmv.

I keep dragging education into this because you keep talking about us snagging high value mates while we have a high value smv. Those high value mates are educated mates. The highest rmv guys are increasingly married to educated women very close to their age, not to 21 year old Hooters waitresses. It may be counterintuitive to you, but it’s the fact of our modern western world.

The only take away your study has for women is that it is much more important to STAY married, and not have to settle for a ten year older step daddy for the kiddos and the paycheck, which will likely end in another divorce. Or a 35 year old who wants to date us when we are 21. That’s also a fast track to being divorced with kids.

Leaning into men’s age gap preferences is counterproductive to OUR goals, and we are statistically more likely to end up mid to late 30’s with kids in tow, bottom of the rmv barrel, not to mention low on every other metric of well being, both by settling young and settling for a large age gap. And you completely continue to ignore that the gap is statistically much higher for str than LTR. We don’t care who you want to bang, we are looking at the reality of who you actually marry.

Again....The people getting married and staying married in 2019 have low age gaps, advanced marital age and are well educated. That’s a fact, and that’s women’s best overall strategy. You can continue to say men want young, men don’t care about education. Doesn’t matter to women if that’s not who is getting married and STAYING married.

Our we could just be a rpw and let our captain decide a one way hall pass is the way to go. /s.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

Greasy, your data doesn’t show women anything about our smv we don’t already know.

Which I think is probably correct. And makes me wonder why this thread is now over 400 comments, mainly women telling me I’m wrong.

I don’t think the OP tells you anything about SMV/RMV women don’t know. I do think many women “kid themselves” about the effect this has on the SMP/RMP as they assume (in error) that the same thing is happening to men to so the net effect is a wash.

There is a conceptual trap in the SMP/RMP here for women that fairly normal assumptions (the SMP/RMP tomorrow will be the same as it is today for me) conceal.

We don’t care what age is optimum for hookers, unless we want to be hookers.

The hooker data is directly relevant to any woman whether she’s a hooker or not because of the effect it reveals so clearly.

I keep dragging education into this because you keep talking about us snagging high value mates while we have a high value smv. Those high value mates are educated mates. The highest rmv guys are increasingly married to educated women very close to their age, not to 21 year old Hooters waitresses. It may be counterintuitive to you, but it’s the fact of our modern western world.

Again. I don’t get what the educational attainment thing has to do with this.

At the ages I’m talking about (woman 24) and assuming a standard age gap (Male +2.5 and so 26-27)... then at the age I’m talking about the men have all the degrees they’re ever going to get.

You’re talking about this as though men don’t get their degrees until they’re in their 30s.

That’s even true for doctorates.

The only take away your study has for women is that it is much more important to STAY married, and not have to settle for a ten year older step daddy for the kiddos and the paycheck, which will likely end in another divorce. Or a 35 year old who wants to date us when we are 21. That’s also a fast track to being divorced with kids.

That could be another takeaway for those chicks, yes.

I’m not sure most women quite realise how early the drop off in the LT value is though. I think most girls would assume they were at 100% at 28 or 29.... not, as the science has revealed it, already 50% off their peak.

I think this news would also be of use to females aswell.

Leaning into men’s age gap preferences is counterproductive to OUR goals,

Yes, that’s soecifically part of this analysis.

and we are statistically more likely to end up mid to late 30’s with kids in tow, bottom of the rmv barrel, not to mention low on every other metric of well being, both by settling young and settling for a large age gap.

That may be so but that doesn’t change the fact that this is the landscape.

It’s no good saying “because it’s better for me I’m going to lie to myself about reality”.

People need to know the landscape as it really is before they can make decisions. Anyone lying to themselves about what it is is setting themselves up for a fall.

I’m not proscribing actions for women here. I am describing the landscape they have to make their decisions on.

Our we could just be a rpw and let our captain decide a one way hall pass is the way to go. /s.

That’s not what the RPWs I’d trust to advise women advise. I’m pretty sure that isn’t what Atlas or LKF or any other red flaired woman here would tell you.

I suspect they would tell you to make your moves young, because that’s when you’ve got the field most tilted in your favour. And I suspect they’re right on that. But I’m just describing the landscape, I don’t trust myself to give navigation advice to women about it, I’d leave that to the RPW. I’m just a fish when it comes to that.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing21 points22 points  (37 children) | Copy Link

Most men in their late 40's or early 50's are not physically attractive, they are floor managers at Home Depot, not making six figures. They also want to date women in their mid 20's but women in their mid 20's don't want to date them, who they do not want to date women who are their looksmatch in their age range. I understand PPD is full of exceptions to the rule but that is not the wider world especially if you happen to be in one of those upper income bubbles where everybody thinks the same and talks the same. Not knocking that experience at all it looks comforting.

[–]rightmeow6 1 points [recovered]  (8 children) | Copy Link

They also want to date women in their mid 20's but women in their mid 20's don't want to date them, who they do not want to date women who are their looksmatch in their age range.

yes and the early 20s females who ARE dating men in their later 30s-40s are NOT hot early 20s females. they're the females who can't land attractive males in their own age range. just look at the sugar subreddit if you need more confirmation; those girls are not attractive for their age, they're just young.

[–]philomexaSUNFUCKER13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

yes and the early 20s females who ARE dating men in their later 30s-40s are not HOT early 20s females.

I've been saying this for years around here, but the menz hamster it away with "youth trumps beauty".

Of course said men will find themselves on MRP (or whatever its future equivalent) 5 years from now complaining about being beta buxed and dead bedroom'd by their fat, unmotivated, mommy moo cow wives. A plain and chubby 23 year old cashier is going to rapidly depreciate, but go ahead and wife her up, at least you get her plain and chubby youth right? 🙄

Attractive early 20-something women want nothing to do with 35+ year old ex-schlubs that needed an internet forum to kick start their lives.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Does TRP actually say "youth trumps beauty"? Then what's the point?

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much. I know GP said in another comment that at each successive marriage the age gap widens which ignores the reality that if you are getting married three and four times you are a giant loser who makes bad decisions so it is irrelevant.

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

yes and the early 20s females who ARE dating men in their later 30s-40s are not HOT early 20s females.

Yeah, sometimes they're "hot", but they have an older man fetish and these guys are for sex, not "boyfriend material".

[–]rightmeow6 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

guess that depends on your definition of hot. they're not going to be the top 20% of the females in their age bracket, they're gonna be at at best average or maybe kinda cute.

[–]chaddad90000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I dunno, but hang around the BDSM scene where it is normalized that girls go off with guys their dad's age. And they aint all chopped liver.

It only makes sense when you consider it to be a not uncommon sex fetish.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

there are absolutely hot younger girls dating older guys, but there is always something wrong with them, usually they were just massive sluts, some kind of daddy issues etc.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 5 points6 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Most men in their late 40's or early 50's are not physically attractive, they are floor managers at Home Depot, not making six figures. They also want to date women in their mid 20's but women in their mid 20's don't want to date them, who they do not want to date women who are their looksmatch in their age range.

What has any of this got to do with my OP?

None of my OP, or anything I’ve said anywhere, implies that 50 yo men are going to successfully date mid 20s girls.

I understand PPD is full of exceptions to the rule but that is not the wider world especially if you happen to be in one of those upper income bubbles where everybody thinks the same and talks the same. Not knocking that experience at all it looks comforting.

Stop assuming what our motives are and arguing against the motive you just made up. Why not discuss what I said instead ?

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing12 points13 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Stop being triggered by an opinion GP, if you don't want a "discussion" then don't make these posts. I am not saying there is no wall I am saying it does not produce the outcome assumed.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Look at the replies. You sure angered the middle aged menz by crushing their fantasy. Evil harpy.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What can I say I was already not one of the cool people so not shocked.

[–]SmurfESmurferson19 points20 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I swear, for all the griping RP does about BP/PP opinions on the wall, no one gets more butthurt than they do when you suggest that men aren't attractive at the age of 90

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I do not get it I never even disputed that most older women and I understand there are exceptions do have fewer options for LTR or marriage. Naturally an older attractive man with a top income can buy himself a hot wife you do not even need peer reviewed studies just look around while out in any large gathering. Never disputed that either. I just added one fairly reasonable dimension and GP went all tut tut like I said I wanted to sacrafice babies at the alter for a squirrel God.

[–]SmurfESmurferson7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, I mean, why else am I sacrificing babies if not to please the squirrel God?

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It should really be the Goat God if you want an actual diety. But I do share my kingdom with others.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For the fetal blood facials, to hold off the wall naturally!

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

WHos triggered ?

I was just pointing out that nothing you said had anything to do with what I said. You’d assumed a motive and argued against that.

All I asked was that you argue about what I said and not the motivation you had created out of whole cloth and assigned to me.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing9 points10 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Once anybody starts a discussion they do not get to decide how the responses roll out. I made a valid point that caused some weird discomfort for you which is not my problem.

[–]AnonoForReasons 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you’re overestimating the cleverness of your response.

OP is saying “so what?” I’m also equally mystified as to why you think that’s relevant. No one is offended, you just made a puzzling response, and it became clearer the more you responded that you are unprepared to say why it’s relevant.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sure Bro.

[–]couldbemage7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's a top level reply, reasonable to assume it's a reply to the op. And it is completely off topic.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No I was adding another dimension.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s not discomfort.

It’s just an unwillingness to discuss your imagination and a desire to discuss what I said.

If you don’t want to discuss that, fine. I’m not interested in discussing your personal fantasy worlds.

[–]krypticNexus0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then clarify your point so that OP can understand, not derail the conversation to discuss who's butthurt. OP's issue is that he thinks you're not addressing his points, which is a valid reason for him to be annoyed about. He's not as triggered as you make him out to be.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

he wasn't triggered at all, your reply didn't provoke anger or butthurt, just a reasonable reply to your strawman

[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I mean, let’s say a guy encounters red pill philosophy at 25, and buys into it, he really runs it down. He chases self improvement, fitness, good friends, he makes the most of himself.

Do you think that guy isn’t even going to make 6 figures at 40? I’ve met those guys, even guys who had nothing, no education, didn’t know how to get girls, nothing at 25, and in their early 30s they’re doing pretty well

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh I am not suggesting it cannot happen. But a vast majority will not. It is a huge bug of American culture to believe everybody can be successful even when the evidence points in the other direction. If anything there is less class/income mobility than 30 or 40 years ago. By and large people end up in a similar economic place to where they came from. A few escape mostly they don't.

[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Idk I’ve met a lot of people who are not ambitious at all. Like they’re content just chillin and enjoying what they have, staying in one place. I think that explains a lot of it

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could be.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You don’t start making 6 figures by following red pill.

😂😂😂😂

White collar corporations don’t care about your SMV. They care that you have a degree, a brain and stable work history.

[–]MrHerbSherman🤠 howdy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Idk the only guys I know irl who’ve read TRP are super into self improvement in all areas including business

Anyway I have no idea why you’re assuming that means white collar corporate , the guys I’m thinking of run their own businesses

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Good find, OP.

I've noticed this trend play out IRL. Young women are hyper in demand, to the point where most develop a chip on their shoulder in some form or another. Or at least intense wariness of men's advances.

When you get into your thirties, things are way more even, and women (the still single ones) are the ones whining about the SMP/dating while 30 year old male singletons seem happy to live a pump and dump, or serial dating, lifestyle.

Having said that, it seems that most people settle down in their age group. The preferred age gap in marriage is the man being about 3 years older.

So when settling down at least, it seems that most people prefer to be relatively close together in age. It's not as if a man at peak value re: your chart (35 years old) often settles down with his 23 y.o. female max SMV counterpart. (Although i strongly suspect he would pursue them for casual sex with a success rate distressing to the older, creep-shaming female inhabitants of this subreddit.)

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 8 points9 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Having said that, it seems that most people settle down in their age group. The preferred age gap in marriage is the man being about 3 years older.

Nope. That’s not he average marriage age gap.

That’s the average marriage age gap at first marroage. At second marriage it’s 5 years. At 3rd marriage it’s 10 years.

You can see the pattern. As men age, they get more power in the RMP and this allows them to open up the age gaps they desire.

At age 28 (first marriage) they stretch down to 25 (which is close to ideal for them anyway). By the time they’re 38 (2’d marriages) they stretch down further. Once they get out to 3rd marriage age they stretch down even further. All seeking that early/mid 20s sweet spot as best as they are able.

First marriages generally happen holster the women have the upper hand in the RMP. Hence the small gap that matches their preferences and still manages to satisfy most of the males.

Later marriages have wider gaps, as the males power stretches away, and the difference between his age and desired age widens.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol the divorce rate of third marriages is 73%. Not really a ringing endorsement

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

its not an "endorsement" its a revealed interest and power of men at that point

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say it was a ringing endorsement of 3rd marriages.

Newsflash Kids.... Don;t get married 3 times!

Why I offered it is that it shows that as men age they can open wider and wider age differentials. Because their increased mate value caused by accrued status allows them to do so.

You want page 23-25 in the meta analysis link to hear the scientists explain it.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Second marriages are often women who married at your golden age of 21 and 60% of them are now divorced with kids, undereducated, underemployed and looking for a step dad. Kids typically live with the mom, so......

Yeah tends limit your choices, not to mention your motivations.

“The first time you marry for love, the second for money, and the third for companionship”

Older men do have much wider differentials as they age,(1/2 +7) but most young divorced women with kids in tow also have to settle for whoever has a job.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

And the men don’t have to settle, and have the status to date down to women who are genuinely attracted 5-10 years younger than them. Which is kinda the point.

[–]Nodoxxintoxin3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I noticed that in discussing second marriages, your meta study compared remarriage rates and ages but ignored some very basic points. Women overwhelmingly initiate the divorces and report lower desire to remarry. Only women with young children report high desire to remarry, and these are typically younger women who are more than willing to trade preferred age gap in favor of higher earning.

All men have strong preferences not to marry women who already have children. While as men age, noone will deny that their age gap preference widens, divorced men often are settling for the least ideal mate there is, a woman with custody of young children. A mid 30’s to 40 year old might have status to date down 5 years, but typically remarry another divorced woman with kids, one of the lowest rmv demographics there is. Basically, she gets mo money, he gets hotter, but neither gets what they really want. Most second marriages are all about settling, hence the ever higher divorce rate for second marriages with those larger age gaps

“Research from 2017 out of the University of Colorado shows that both men and women who marry younger than themselves are often initially happier, but see a sharper decline in satisfaction over time.”

“A five-year age gap statistically means you’re 18% more likely to divorce (versus just 3% with a 1-year age difference), and that rate rises to 39% for a 10-year age difference and 95% for a 20-year age gap”

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Anecdotal, but older men (40s, 50s) that I've heard talk on this subject don't seem to be interested in marrying a mid 20s woman.

It seems to me that as people age, the age gap itself becomes less significant. What I mean is that, if men do prefer slightly younger women, by the time he hits 40, a 37 year old women doesn't really feel that much younger... so he extends down to 35. The 50 year old guy stretches down to 40.

However, that doesn't imply any of them want to go all the way down to 25. Like I question the existence of a CONSTANT age for females that men are consistently aiming for regardless of their own age, I very much think it's relative.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I agree.

This stuff gets balanced against other stuff. Hence the 3-5-10 years marriage ranges I shared. Those guys are clearly making such trades.

I think the charts you want in terms of what men and women are comfortable doing (as against the theoretical limits) are these ones from a different study.

Average age men are comfortable dating relative to their own age

Average age women are comfortable dating relative to their own age

This outlines very roughly the lines where practical considerations bump up against theoretical maximums.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Basically i see it like this:

Men consistently want to FUCK young 25ish women. But in all other dimensions - financial, social, etc - having a similarly aged women is better.

Granted, the sexual dimension takes up 90% of the average male brain. But the remaining 10% explains why the preferred partner age doesnt stay at exactly 22-25 through a mans entire life.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well, as does the fact that women’s preferences also come into it.

I think those graphs very fairly show where the Male/female typical cutoff is.

Men may always find 24 yo the sexiest. But they’re unwilling to go over a 10-12 year gap to get there, because it’s a stretch to far for them.... and also a stretch too far for the girl too.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fuck. Now I want to feel a girl stretching too far for me.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Are they unwilling or unable to get mid 20s girls?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A bit of both I suspect.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So if women prefer small age gaps and if they have enough SMV/RMV they get married to a man close to their age, what does that say about women who get married to men 10-15-20 years older?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It says that, almost certainly that man has lots of status. Enough that the attraction to the status overcomes the age gap.

Like Monica and Bill.

[–]MakeMoneyNotWar1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you look at that chart though, for men marrying 6 years+ totals about 19%. So in about 19% of first marriages men are marrying 6 years+. Does anybody want to venture to guess who those 19% of men are? I'm willing to bet roughly the top 20% most successful men. Once again 80-20.

[–]Mescalean4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Are we allowed to crosspost from here? This is great OP 🤣

Live science

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I’m not sure. Where were you intending to crosspost it ?

[–]Mescalean4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

r/relationshipadvice

Admittedly just to watch an uncomfortable truth trigger a whole lot if blue pilled billy betas and beckys

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, as OP I wouldnt object.

And I guess it’s up to you what you post on other subs from a PPD perspective. Go for it.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

r/TheBluePill, probably.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷8 points9 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

When the BP girls say “I’m 33 and plenty of guys are still interested” she’s right, that’s her lived experience, they are interested. She just hasn’t figured out yet that while they used to be interested for sex+relationships, it’s now increasingly sex focus a

OOH you say the wall is about SMP then you say this.

When the RP guys say “33 is past it. High value males are not going to marry you at that age.”

Most UMC women marry at 30+.

And when the RP girls say “Don’t waste your pretty. Snag a high value male while you’re young” they’re also right. 21-24 is where your value is highest

If your looks are all you have, sure.

There is literally no woman on the planet who is unaware of the fact she will age and that people become less attractive as they age. That TRPs think they’re playing gotcha on this point speaks to how stupid and desparate they actually are.

What is disputed is the idea that you go to sleep the night before yoir 30th birthday as a goddess and wake up a troll.

The wall exists, but it’s gradual.

For women with good genes, who take care of themselves, who have something to offer besides their cooch, and/or don’t date kiddie chasers, foreign misogynists and sheltered virgins who get all of their information on women from Reddit, the wall is a non issue until 35 or even 40.

I looked better at 25 than I did at 30, better at 30 than I did at 35, better at 35 than I did at 40, and so on. I still looked good at everyone of those ages. At 43 and admittedly about 10 lbs heavier than I’d like, I still turn heads.

If I were single today Could I snag an NBA player or a 28 year old Wall Street millionaire? Probably not. Could I snag a decent looking 40/50 something divorcee with a good job? Probably. And guess what? I already know that and have exactly zero problems with that.

Tl;Dr TRP/manosphere needs to stop pretending their revenge porn is some magic insight they have to one up women when all women already know it. Cuz as far as y’all are concerned, it doesn’t matter. We still don’t want to fuck you. At any age.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 3 points4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

OOH you say the wall is about SMP then you say this.

Yes, the wall is about the SMP/RMP. Thats explicitly what it's about.

Most UMC women marry at 30+.

Good For them.

If your looks are all you have, sure.

Your looks are the vast bulk of what any woman has.

Become fat, don't put on makeup, and don't do your hair and you'll find that out pretty quick.

There is literally no woman on the planet who is unaware of the fact she will age and that people become less attractive as they age. That TRPs think they’re playing gotcha on this point speaks to how stupid and desparate they actually are.

No, thats not the gotcha point.

The gotcha point is amply demonstrated by what you said which is wrong.

It's not "people" that get less attractive as they age. It's "women".

This causes women problems when they are "just as attrracted to the men their own age as they always were" and those same men "are now attracted to women younger than them'.

It's the discrepancy between how ageing affects males and females differently that causes the wall. Something you clearly haven't picked up on yet despite reading OP and some of the thread below.

What is disputed is the idea that you go to sleep the night before yoir 30th birthday as a goddess and wake up a troll. The wall exists, but it’s gradual.

No-one ever said you go to be aged 29 and 364 days a princess and wake up a troll.

Thats your strawman of the wall, constructed for you to smash all the straw out of it.

Thats not what the wall is.

For women with good genes, who take care of themselves, who have something to offer besides their cooch, and/or don’t date kiddie chasers, foreign misogynists and sheltered virgins who get all of their information on women from Reddit, the wall is a non issue until 35 or even 40.

Which is another way of saying "The wall exists and occurs for all women, even the ones who have good genes and take care of themselves, by 40".

Which is kinda my position too. So, glad to see you agree there.

I looked better at 25 than I did at 30, better at 30 than I did at 35, better at 35 than I did at 40, and so on. I still looked good at everyone of those ages.

I'm sure you did, to womens eyes. I am sure the other girls agreed with you on the above.

To guys, you did NOT look substantially more attractive aged 40 than aged 25.

Guys eyes work differently. They assign "attractive" or "not" differently to how women do. It's very keyed to signs of youth.

Unless you looked substantially younger at 40 than you did at 25, the guys did not consider 40 yo you more attractive, although the girls may well have done.

At 43 and admittedly about 10 lbs heavier than I’d like, I still turn heads.

Again, I'm sure you do. Guys are quite willing to turn their head for a woman they'd like to nail. You've got probably another 3-5 years before they stop doing that altogether.

f I were single today Could I snag an NBA player or a 28 year old Wall Street millionaire? Probably not. Could I snag a decent looking 49/50 something dude with a good job? Probably.

Yes, at 43.... you probably could snag a dude up around 50-55. Guys date down in age, you're much more attractive to them than 50-55 yo chicks.

You're not going to get a guy aged 40-43 interested in you for marriage though. They can marry girls 30-35 and will be reaching down past you for those girls.... although they'll be happy to fuck and then ghost you for a few more years yet.

Tl;Dr TRP/manosphere needs to stop pretending their revenge por is some magic insight they have to one up women when all women already know it. Cuz as far as y’all are concerned, it doesn’t matter. We still don’t want to fuck you.

ITT .... 100's of women telling me they already know this.

I Every Other Wall Thread..... 100's of women telling us it's bollocks, it's a revenge fantasy, that men ageing is as bad for their looks as women ageing, etc etc.

Someone else weill do a new wall thread in 3 weeks time. Remember this chat when you read it. It won't be full of women agreeing "we already know our marriage market gets really bad for us post 30, and even worse post 40". They'll all be telling us how this is a mirage again.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷7 points8 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Yes, the wall is about the SMP/RMP.

Which are not the same thing. You don’t even know the concepts you’re trying to debate.

It's not "people" that get less attractive as they age. It's "women".

Men get less attractive as they age.

This causes women problems when they are "just as attrracted to the men their own age as they always were" and those same men "are now attracted to women younger than them'.

Men may be attracted to younger women but younger women are not attracted to them. Show me data that suggests a large age discrepancy in dating or marriage. I’ll save you the trouble of having to hamster a reepsonse: you can’t.

Which is another way of saying "The wall exists and occurs for all women, even the ones who have good genes and take care of themselves, by 40".

Hitting a wall suggests suddenly being hindered by a major barrier. Aging a little every year isn’t a wall.

To guys, you did NOT look substantially more attractive aged 40 than aged 25.

Good thing that’s not what I said.

You're not going to get a guy aged 40-43 interested in you for marriage though.

I’m going to four weddings in the next 18 months, all women in their early to mid 40s marrying men of similar age. When you look at data of women marrying in their 40s, the age discrepancy is still comparatively small.

Here’s the rub (since apparently you paid zero attention to what i wrote and insist on projecting male psychology into women):

Women age and get less attractive with each passing year.

Men age and get less attractive with each passing year.

The difference is, women know it and we adjust our expectations in line with it. We know in our 40s we’re unlikely to get a fit hot rich guy who has no kids. We know we’re settleing for less, and we’re ok with that. Hence why there’s not MGTOWs/manosphere for women.

Men, as you’ve so aptly demonstrated, prefer to imagine a fantasy world and blame the fact that they’re not living in it on everyone else. Hence mgtow/manosphere.

How old are you?

[–]chaddad90002 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The difference is, women know it and we adjust our expectations in line with it. We know in our 40s we’re unlikely to get a fit hot rich guy who has no kids. We know we’re settleing for less, and we’re ok with that. Hence why there’s not MGTOWs/manosphere for women.

I agree with you here, women are adept at adjusting their expectations and that's why there's no real "wall". TGP's own data shows women are happy willing and able to date quite a bit older.

Its also why I think "beta bux" is an overstated phenomenon -- women will compromise on other things to get the "alpha".

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Which are not the same thing. You don’t even know the concepts you’re trying to debate.

No, they're not the same thing. But the data in OP applies to both. I specifically say that the effect happens at different times for the SMP and the RMP, and the fact that women are still successful in the SMP is part of what blinds them to the changes going on in the RMP earlier.

You're not going to get far assuming I don't know what I'm talking about if I'm using RP terms. Seriously.

Men get less attractive as they age.

Not to their same age peers they don't. A 30 yo is as attractive to 30 yo women... as a 40 yo is to 40 yo women... and so on.

Men are most attracted to guys "the same age as them and modestly older". Men are most attracted to "women in their twenties". It's the difference in the way the attraction of each sex works that creates this effect.

Men may be attracted to younger women but younger women are not attracted to them. Show me data that suggests a large age discrepancy in dating or marriage. I’ll save you the trouble of having to hamster a reepsonse: you can’t.

How about this data.

Average age difference at first marriage is woman 3 years younger. Average at second marriage is women 5 years younger. Average at third marriage is women 10 years younger.

Or.... how about this one...

19 % of marriages the male is over 6 years older than the female and for 7.5% the men are ten years or more older.

Only 4.3% of marriages is the female over 6 years older than the male nd for only 1.6% are the women ten years or more older.

Hitting a wall suggests suddenly being hindered by a major barrier. Aging a little every year isn’t a wall.

Women are quite suddenly hindered by a major barrier. You can see it in the first graph in OP. Aged 20-30 they have a massive advantage over males in the RMP. Aged 30-40 this completely disappears, such that males have the advantage females had in the 20-30 era.

It's the difference between being the major actor every movie studio is chasing to fill their lead role.... and over a handful of years, becoming an actor that rings round all the movie studios and no-one will return his call.

Good thing that’s not what I said.

OK, looking back on it... you're right. I read that totally wrong.

What you said is in total agreement with what I am saying.

I’m going to four weddings in the next 18 months, all women in their early to mid 40s marrying men of similar age. When you look at data of women marrying in their 40s, the age discrepancy is still comparatively small.

I can't find data on that. But the data I can find (that on 1st, 2nd and 3rd marriages) indicate this is probably wrong. As married couples age the gap gets wider, because the 2nd marriages are long after the 1st marriages, and the 3rd after the 2nd.

Women age and get less attractive with each passing year.

Yes

Men age and get less attractive with each passing year.

No

The difference is, women know it and we adjust our expectations in line with it. We know in our 40s we’re unlikely to get a fit hot rich guy who has no kids. We know we’re settleing for less, and we’re ok with that. Hence why there’s not MGTOWs/manosphere for women.

No, the MGTOW/Incel/RP phenomena isn't a phenomena of old men.... it's a phenomena of young men.

If your theory was correct, all the young guys wouldn;t be incels/RP.... and it would be just a bunch of old guys grousing.

The demographics are 180 degree reversed from that. It's almost entirely young guys. Because it's the *youngest* guys that have trouble getting laid. When guys get older, it becomes easier and easier and easier.

Men, as you’ve so aptly demonstrated, prefer to imagine a fantasy world and blame the fact that they’re not living in it on everyone else. Hence mgtow/manosphere.

No, men inhabit reality... and try to use their knowledge of reality to get what they want. Thats what RP and the manosphere are about. Men using knowledge of reality to solve their problems.

Largely those problems are "getting laid whilst I'm still young".

How old are you?

42.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You're not going to get far assuming I don't know what I'm talking about if I'm using RP terms. Seriously.

Mmkay.

Not to their same age peers they don't.

It doesn't matter what their peers think. It matters what women think.

Men are most attracted to guys "the same age as them and modestly older".

You mean women not men, and you TOTALLY CONTRADICTED YOURSELF. You admitted that women are attracted to men their own age, so how can young women simultanesouly be attracted to older men? LMAO

Average age difference at first marriage is woman 3 years younger. Average at second marriage is women 5 years younger. Average at third marriage is women 10 years younger.

Source?

19 % of marriages the male is over 6 years older than the female and for 7.5% the men are ten years or more older. Only 4.3% of marriages is the female over 6 years older than the male nd for only 1.6% are the women ten years or more older.

Not impressive numebrs. Also not correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships

No, the MGTOW/Incel/RP phenomena isn't a phenomena of old men.... it's a phenomena of young men. If your theory was correct, all the young guys wouldn;t be incels/RP.... and it would be just a bunch of old guys grousing.

MGTOWs are mostly bitter divorced men who find no woman wants them. Go to the sub and see for yourself.

42.

Which is why you continue to delude yourself that women in their 20s and early 30s want men in their 40s.

How are all those young girls working out for you?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It works great for me. Constantly getting looks from women aged 20-40, and I am around OP's age and single. I go specifically for women in their late teens amd early 20s. What an asshole right?

How does hamster, not tiried yet?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't matter what their peers think. It matters what women think

Well here I was referring to their same aged women as “their peers.”

Women like men around their age and modestly older. That means guys don’t lose attraction with those same age peers women as they age.

Men like women to be younger, with the most attractive women pegged to about 24. That means women lose attraction from those same age peers men every year they age past 24/25.

You mean women not men, and you TOTALLY CONTRADICTED YOURSELF. You admitted that women are attracted to men their own age, so how can young women simultanesouly be attracted to older men? LMAO

Like this

The male age females prefer

The female age males prefer

And like this....

Average age women are comfortable dating relative to their own age

Source?

The meta analysis linked in OP

Consistent with these predictions, for Amer- ican men the average age gap within first mar- riage is just 3 years; this gap increases to 5 years within second marriages and 8 years within third marriages (Guttentag & Secord, 1983). A separate study found that men averaged remar- riage partners 6 years younger than themselves whereas their first wives were just 1.5 years younger on average (Buckle et al., 1996). If older men are marrying increasingly younger women as they divorce and remarry, this im- plies that older women are not securing the men they desire. Interestingly, the same study found that women did not change their age gap upon remarriage and were therefore acquiring part- ners of slightly higher mate value than their first partners, though not to the same extent as were their exhusbands (Buckle et al., 1996). Fieder and Huber (2007) analyzed marriage data from over 10,000 Swedish men and women and found that men’s first partners were 1.74 years their junior relative to an age gap of 6.10 years for second partners. Women’s age gap, in contrast, decreased, with women selecting mates 3.18 years their senior for first partners but settling for an age gap of just 0.90 years for second partners. This trend is not novel: 19th century Swedish men married women 0.45 years older than themselves for a first marriage but then acquired partners 10.6 years younger than themselves for second mar- riages (Low, 1991).

.

Not impressive numebrs. Also not correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships

That’s the exact same source I used. You need to do your sums again.

MGTOWs are mostly bitter divorced men who find no woman wants them. Go to the sub and see for yourself.

They’re bitter men of all types. But they lean to the young because that’s where the men have trouble with women.

Which is why you continue to delude yourself that women in their 20s and early 30s want men in their 40s.

No, what use is that to me ?

I’ve been with my current wife for 18 years, married for 10, we have 2 kids and I have every intention of staying with her. None of this is of any direct use to me whatsoever.

How are all those young girls working out for you?

I did pretty well back when I was dating them. 20 years ago.

But I was always a tall and attractive guy, so my lack of status (I’m working class) wasn’t a problem for me.

I don’t actually benefit in any way from anything I say on PPD. For me it’s all about “what reflects reality”, none of it is related to my personal life/goals at all.

I do it for the fun of the truth. Not to support my preconceived prejudices.

Why do you do it ?

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You’re married?? I’ve never heard you mention having a wife before. But ok.

You don’t seem to be grasping the contradiction you keep making.

You’re arguing that women prefer men close to their own age. Then you turn around and argue that young women want older men as evidenced by data that shows exactly the opposite.

Men are universally attracted to younger women but the attraction is not mutual. Why are you having such as hard time acknowledging your own cognitive dissonance?

Women cannot simultaneously prefer men their own age and prefer older men at the same time.

It is true that women prefer men their own age. that does not mean they find men their own age the most objectively attractive.

A 55 year old woman may want a man in the 50-60 range. That does not mean she thinks the 60 year old man is more or even equally objectively attractive than a 35 year old man. That 60 year old man was far more attractive at 35 than he is now. But a 55 year old woman wants a man she’s compatiable with and doesn’t care about having the most attractive man. And the 35 year old woman will never find the 60 year old more or equally attractive to men her own age.

Are you following me now?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You’re married?? I’ve never heard you mention having a wife before. But ok.

I’m pretty sure I’ve explicitly said this to you at least 3 times in the last month.

You’re arguing that women prefer men close to their own age. Then you turn around and argue that young women want older men as evidenced by data that shows exactly the opposite.

No, women’s preference is for guys about their own age and modestly older. However they also find status attractive and the older the man is the more status he has.

The attraction to status pushes them out of the age range they prefer.

Look. Suppose I said men like “non insane wowomen” but also like “pretty women”.

Don’t you think you’re going to find plenty of guys willing to trade away their “non-insane” preference for the insane girl who is smoking hot ? Right ?

So women trade away their “modestly older” age preference for the status that older men have.

As status is the most important trait for women in LT mate attraction, and the one they’re least willing to compromise on, older guys can get women trading up a long way in age to get at it.

The “older guy with lots of status” is more attractive on net than “the younger guy without it”.

Just as men are able to put up with a lot of crazy for the smoking hot chick.

Men are universally attracted to younger women but the attraction is not mutual. Why are you having such as hard time acknowledging your own cognitive dissonance?

Over modest age ranges... it is mutual. You saw that chart I gave you earlier. The average amount a woman is willing to date up in age is about 8-10 years. Dating within that range is not a problem for any guy if you’re desirable to her for other reasons.

Outside that window you have to bring something really special, usually status and lots of it, and that can allow men to stretch that window out to maybe 15 years or so but you have to be really worth it.

In any of the scenarios I just went over above the attraction is genuine and mutual.

Women cannot simultaneously prefer men their own age and prefer older men at the same time.

Like men can’t simultaneously prefer “non crazy” and “smoking hot” at the same time ?

If she’s stretching over the 2-3 years she’s doing so because there are lots of reasons to find you desirable that allows women to look past the fact he’s not just 2 years older, but 8 years older.

If you have a woman a guy who was 3 years older, and an identical guy 8 years older, she’d go for the 3 years guy.

If you make the 8 years older guy more handsome, higher status, with a better physique etc etc she’ll happily choose the 8 year older guy over the 3 yr one. Why is this so hard to understand ?

A 55 year old woman may want a man in the 50-60 range. That does not mean she thinks the 60 year old man is more or even equally objectively attractive than a 35 year old man.

This is a distinction without a difference. If she’ll date the 60 yo and not the 35 yo then to her the 60 yo is more attractive in any way that matters.

Are you following me now?

I’m following you. You aren’t saying anything I don’t know. You appear to be saying it as though it’s a revelation. Listen! Sometimes men date crazy chicks because they’re hot!!!!.

I know.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

older the man is the more status he has.

Oh god no. LOL

The attraction to MONEY pushes SOME WOMEN out of the age range they prefer.

FTFY. Most older men have neither status nor money. And frankly if a woman is young and attractive why the fuck would she want a rich 50 year old when she can have a rich 30 year old? For women who are lower in SMV they may take the 50 yo, but would he? Wouldn’t he opt for a little older and a little hotter?

The average amount a woman is willing to date up in age is about 8-10 years. Dating within that range is not a problem for any guy if you’re desirable

For younger women not really. A 19 yo isn’t really interested in a 29 yo. He’s not in her peer group. At 43, a 53 year old man is in my peer group. That difference is not a big deal at this age.

If she’ll date the 60 yo and not the 35 yo then to her the 60 yo is more attractive in any way that matter

More appealing, not more objectively attractive.

Attractive 30 yo guy is objectively attractive to a 30, 40, 50, 60 etc yo. He doesn’t become less attractive to an older woman.

Attractive 50 yo guy is subjectively attractive to the woman of his age who will date him.

This is the problem in arguing about hard and fast rules. At the end of day, it doesn’t really matter. People already know what they should be doing to attract the type of person they want.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, the MGTOW/Incel/RP phenomena isn't a phenomena of old men.... it's a phenomena of young men.

Incels and MGTOWs are ideologically different, incels don't claim that dating or looks get better at 30, some of them theorize that you decrease at looks and every other aspect in life when you hit puberty (ex. From being a happy kid with no problems to become a mentally ill social outcast because of your unnattractiveness) while others theorize that men decline after college or after 25.

If your theory was correct, all the young guys wouldn;t be incels/RP.... and it would be just a bunch of old guys grousing.

There are terms to describe old incels, "oldcel" and "wizardcel" are the main ones to describe them. The tons of guys posting how they became the "creepy old dude" when hitting 30, how younger girls aren't attracted to them & how their teeth, libido, muscle mass, hairline are starting to decline. Also:

  • Redpill ≠ Incels
  • Blackpill = Incels

When guys get older, it becomes easier and easier and easier.

r/MGTOW and r/DeadBedrooms say otherwise. Mostly 30+ dudes complaining about how they got divorce-raped, how their ex-wives/actual wives didn't/don't found them attractive to have sex with them, how they got manipulated/cheated by younger girls and so on.

Largely those problems are "getting laid whilst I'm still young".

Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian would like to have a chat with you.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Incels and MGTOWs are ideologically different, incels don't claim that dating or looks get better at 30, some of them theorize that you decrease at looks and every other aspect in life when you hit puberty (ex. From being a happy kid with no problems to become a mentally ill social outcast because of your unnattractiveness) while others theorize that men decline after college or after 25.

They are different things, but they are both phenomena massively dominated by relatively young men.

There are terms to describe old incels, "oldcel" and "wizardcel" are the main ones to describe them. The tons of guys posting how they became the "creepy old dude" when hitting 30, how younger girls aren't attracted to them & how their teeth, libido, muscle mass, hairline are starting to decline.

Yes, but they are a much smaller portion of the incel/MTOW population than of the population at large.

Maybe old men still play football. But teams of organised footballers who play in the park every sunday are still a phenomena of relatively young men.

And I'm aware of what redpill/blackpill means. I've had a red flair and been commenting on RP for about 5 years now. I've been a Mod on PPD for coming up for 18 months.

This is not my first rodeo. I'm very well aware of what the various "groups" are in the pill-o-sphere.

r/MGTOW and r/DeadBedrooms say otherwise. Mostly 30+ dudes complaining about how they got divorce-raped, how their ex-wives/actual wives didn't/don't found them attractive to have sex with them, how they got manipulated/cheated by younger girls and so on.

Yes, thats /r/DeadBedrooms. But thats not particularly r/MGTOW.

Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian would like to have a chat with you.

Elliot Rodgers was 22 and Alek Minassian was 25.

Thats still "young men". I'm 42. I'd count as an "older man" guys into their 30's (even then just barely) and more solidly once they're in their late 30's or early 40's.

If you think 22 and 25 is "older men" that reflects the fact that you personally are still basically a teen more than the more general societal use of that term. The way society uses "young man" both of these guys were still very much "young men".... and the vast bulk of the MGTOW and Incel communities are "young men" of this type and younger.

Perhaps men 15-30 are something like 1/3 of all men. They're something like 85-90-95% of all incels and MGTOW.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They are different things, but they are both phenomena massively dominated by relatively young men.

Again, incels are dominated by young man, MGTOW is dominated by older men.

but they are a much smaller portion of the incel/MTOW population than of the population at large.

You're making a mistake conflating the two under one brush, the best thing to do is analize both of them separately.

Maybe old men still play football. But teams of organised footballers who play in the park every sunday are still a phenomena of relatively young men.

Not a good example.

And I'm aware of what redpill/blackpill means. I've had a red flair and been commenting on RP for about 5 years now. I've been a Mod on PPD for coming up for 18 months.

Not questioning that, but I think combining both MGTOW and incels under one analysis is making your analysis erroneous for the reasons previously said.

Thats still "young men". I'm 42. I'd count as an "older man" guys into their 30's (even then just barely) and more solidly once they're in their late 30's or early 40's.

If you think 22 and 25 is "older men" that reflects the fact that you personally are still basically a teen more than the more general societal use of that term. The way society uses "young man" both of these guys were still very much "young men".... and the vast bulk of the MGTOW and Incel communities are "young men" of this type and younger.

I mentioned them to complement what you said about "having sex and relationships whilst you're young", they were the main example of this, they wanted sex and relationships in their teens & twenties, didn't wanted to wait until their 30s. Also this phenomena of old incels committing suicide in their late 20s-early 30s (a very tragic one by the way) known as 'roping' because of no achievement in the dating market since they were teens.

Most men don't have the moral capacity and self-esteem to wait until 30 for their first kiss and first date unfortunately.

Perhaps men 15-30 are something like 1/3 of all men. They're something like 85-90-95% of all incels and MGTOW.

Again, incels are mostly dominated by young man with little to no sexual and romantical achievement, MGTOWs are mostly dominated by older men with poor sexual and romantical achievement.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

25 than I did at 30

Is there a significant decrease between 25 and 30 though?. I don't think so, unless if it's because of self-sabotage (ex. Regular consumption of drugs and alcohol since early 20s) then yes.

There is literally no woman on the planet who is unaware of the fact she will age and that people become less attractive as they age. That TRPs think they’re playing gotcha on this point speaks to how stupid and desparate they actually are.

I couldn't agree more, redpillers make it seem that women aging is some kind of scientific discovery when in reality it's an obviousness that most people already know.

Tl;Dr TRP/manosphere needs to stop pretending their revenge porn is some magic insight they have to one up women when all women already know it. Cuz as far as y’all are concerned, it doesn’t matter. We still don’t want to fuck you. At any age.

Exactly, unattractive dudes at 20 will probably still remain unattractive at 30 if they didn't change anything about themselves.

[–]wtffellificationWe all love women3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think nobody in their right minds would claim the wall is not real (although many do, but let's leave those aside)

the problem is, alot of bitter young men see it as a kind of a revenge fantasy which fulfills itself "I can't wait till she gets old, she will see how it's like to have nobody then".. this doesn't help anybody

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It doesn’t, I’d agree.

However, what are you going to do if the only people actively telling the truth are guys like this you don’t like for other reasons ?

Ignore the truth ? Or accept the truth but ignore the source ?

[–]diffdedbedGreen Eyed Devil12 points13 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

See I'm at peak value myself and if I was back on the market I'd rather marry a 33 year old (who didn't want kids) than a 23 year old (who could be my kid).

I'd also feel less pressure on me to "act young" and less chance of cheating (you can't hide your lying eyes) and for that matter less chance of a gold digger. Also if shes still in good shape at 33 thats a much better sign, many a good looking 23 year old is a landwhale by 30's.

Another issue is "branch swinging" I think this is overstated by a lot in the RP, but lets say I'm with my 33 year old wife now. 10 years later shes 43 and I'm fucking old, she will instinctively know her opportunities are shit and be less likely to try to move on than if I was fucking old and shes 33.

Finally I'd actually appreciate a more independent woman who I could talk to.

Even if I could get a super loyal 23 year old, it would have to be a very high quality one, and those would have little interest in someone twice their age.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

A perfect example of a human being making choices based on reason and practicality, rather than acting purely on primal animal instinct. You’re making informed decisions based on multiple factors because We live in a Society. That’s what well adjusted people do, we invented civilization precisely so we don’t have to live off primal instinct...and self-awareness and reason are how we are different from animals.

[–]EsauTheRed3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No one invented civilization, it arose organically and is a hierarchy of power. We are no different from animals truly.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Lol

[–]EsauTheRed0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lol about what? This is the deep truth, not the feminine realm of appearances

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol at you taking my invented civilization literally and lol at you thinking we are like animals. Let me know when animals form an online cult to learn how to mate, use birth control to prevent breeding, talk about philosophy and troll online.

[–]EsauTheRed0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah you have it both ways, excellent

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Huh?

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also if shes still in good shape at 33 thats a much better sign, many a good looking 23 year old is a landwhale by 30's.

this is the most lethal argument against younger girls tbh

but I still think it just ups the bar to about 24 from 18

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot11 points12 points  (97 children) | Copy Link

the concept of the wall isn't dumb because women stay hot until theyre 80. its dumb because the average woman is married in her 20s long before she ever crashes into it and the ones who aren't probably just aren't as invested in marriage and children as other women are anyway. essentially there is just a lot of thought jerking about a tiny percentage of unlucky women who find themselves both single into their 30s and still expecting to chosen. and many of these women were never the beauty to begin with.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 10 points11 points  (56 children) | Copy Link

the concept of the wall isn't dumb because women stay hot until theyre 80. its dumb because the average woman is married in her 20s long before she ever crashes into it and the ones who aren't probably just aren't as invested in marriage and children as other women are anyway.

Or women who thought they had plenty of time, were keen to have all the fun they could in their 20s and had plans to find it easy to settle down in their 30s because “the men will still want me then as much as they do now”.

This info is relevant for women from about 25. About 70% are still unmarried then (these are the girls who can use this info to avert the problem). It’s very directly relevant to women over 30 (about 40% of these are still unmarried) it’s just that then it’s too late to do anything about it. They’re already “in the hole”.

essentially there is just a lot of thought jerking about a tiny percentage of unlucky women who find themselves both single into their 30s and still expecting to chosen.

Yes, that tiny amount of roughly 60 million women in the US.

40% of women is not an insignificant amount of women. Most of that 40% still want to get married and/or have kids.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

This info is relevant for women from about 25. About 70% are still unmarried then

No shit. I was unmarried at 25. I was, however, engaged, and I was married by the following year.

Why do RP men have this fixed idea that "unmarried" must necessarily mean "off riding the CC, blithely unaware that her SMV/RMV is about to hit the skids?" I would hazard to say that most middle-to-upper class women are in a LTR that will lead to marriage by the age of 25.

[–]SmurfESmurferson10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Even I was in a serious LTR and living with the guy when I was 25 - I broke it off with him to be with M, but seriously. My slooty days were long behind me at that point

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Revenge porn. All those women who rejected them in their 20s “will be sorry when they hit 30 and no one wants to marry them.” Then 30 comes and goes, those dudes are still virgins and the women who supposedly were gonna be soooooo sorry and lonely are married, so the trope becomes “he’s just some beta bux loser she’s not attracted to and married for the reeeeeeesourciz.”

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

C’mon now, you know better than this.

They’re unmarried. They have decisions to make. They could “break it off” thinking they’ll get a better offer. They could have an affair. They could decide to do all sorts of things.

This information is relevant to any unmarried woman below about 45. Having this would enable them all to make better informed decisions.

Whether that decision is to “break it off with Geoff” or whether it is to “stay young free and single a few years longer” or whether it is “is this guy my best shot ? Or could I get a better one if I rolled the dice again?”.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Are you seriously arguing that a woman who is engaged and months away from marriage, in a years-long LTR, at age 25 is no different from a CC-riding Stacey?

Because if that is seriously what you are arguing, then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you seriously arguing that a woman who is engaged and months away from marriage, in a years-long LTR, at age 25 is no different from a CC-riding Stacey?

Please point to any comment I made saying “this is only relevant to CC riding Stacey’s”. I didn’t.

You introduced that into the argument as though it was my point. It was not my point. It was your straw man.

My point is “as long as women still continue to make decisions about their relationship future this information, which helps inform her on her alternatives, is still relevant”.

I don’t have to think a fiancé == to a CC riding Stacey to say “this information is relevant to both, and would help both make their decisions better”.

Because if that is seriously what you are arguing, then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

No. I’m not arguing that. I’m trying to argue the real point... not the “CC riding Stacey” strawman you inserted into this at the start.

This information is relevant to all unmarried women under 45.

The CC riding Stacey’s May be able to get the best benefit from heeding the natural advice it generates... but there is no women who are worse off for having a better view of reality.

The woman inning and ahing about whether “she should leave Geoff at 29, because I think I can do better than Geoff” needs this information as much as the Stacey’s.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why not extrapolate it to all women under 45, then? Women can and do get divorced. Married women can and do branch-swing.

What, exactly, is "the real point?" You're acting like it's that women "inning and aahing" about whether they can do better "need" this information. If that is the case, then it doesn't matter if they're married or not.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why not extrapolate it to all women under 45, then? Women can and do get divorced. Married women can and do branch-swing.

Well yes, it'd have validity there as well TBH. I was thinking this after replying to you above. I was just considering this as "data of use in deciding when to marry". You're right that it's also equally useful in "deciding whether to divorce".

What, exactly, is "the real point?"

A point we debate frequently here, but is never decided conclusively either way.... has been very effectively supported by science in a direction that should more or less settle the argument.

You're acting like it's that women "inning and aahing" about whether they can do better "need" this information.

Well, this is very clearly information that is very pertinent to their decisions.

Like "Is there a battalion of Tanks over that hill" is pertinent to the question "Should we go over the hill". You can ignore it if you want. You can pretend that information is not available if you want. But ultimately, if someone else had that information you'd expect them to share.

If that is the case, then it doesn't matter if they're married or not.

Again, I think I agree. This is still most pertinent to single women aged roughly 23-30.

But to any married woman considering divorcing 30-45, and "assuming" that the SMP/RMP she re-enters will be the same as the one she left 21-24, then this is valuable information for her too.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was divorced twice in that age bracket and I'm thankful I didn't know! I blithely assumed I'd find new partners without much trouble and ... guess what, it happened!

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well done you, not even being sarcastic.

You beat the odds, plenty of people do.

That doesn't mean it's a good idea to play in the casino.... but I can't deny many people still win even with the odds stacked against them.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

women already know all of this. while men may think they have stumbled into some ~controversial redpill truth~ because they read about The Wall last year, its actually pretty banal stuff that has been present in women's media that girls have been consuming since they could understand the world around them. we have mothers and aunts and grandmothers straight up telling us "You're getting old, hurry up." we see our friends rapidly settling down with each other and realize that all the prospects are being plucked away. the wall is literally Girl World 101 stuff. don't mistake a woman being willing to take a chance with her not knowing the odds.

[–]maplehobo 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Then why are all the women here getting triggered by this post like it's a concept so foreign and difficult to understand?

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It’s not the women here who are triggered. It’s the men who are triggered by us telling them the truth, that they will not suddenly become gods at 40 with 20 year old women lining up for them.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Show me a single man anywhere on this thread that has said that.

I can show you plenty of women assuming that’s what we are saying. I can’t fond a single man saying it.

C’mon. I gave you two links earlier on a similar challenge. Link me two men saying that on this thread.

This thread is not full of triggered guys. It’s full of triggered women.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

TRP is pseudo scientific garbage its totally wrong

UGH of COURSE thats obvious, TRP just parrots stuff EVERYONE knows

[–]chaddad90001 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

IMO, its a fair point because 25 yo women often have different priorities that 30 yo women and maybe "Geoff" either never gets his shit together or figures out he could date 22 yo Brianna instead.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Do you really think anyone is buying your concern trolling about the “bad decisions” of older unmarried women you claim you’re not interested or attracted to?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I don’t have any “concern”.

I am describing reality because I like sharing the stuff I’ve learned and science has revealed.

This should be of interest to anyone wishing to tether themselves to reality in order to make better decisions.

I have no particular concern for older women, or younger wome, or men, or aliens from the planet zog.

I’ll describe reality, and they can decide whether they’d like to listen or do the whole “la la la I can’t hear the things I don’t like la la la” thing.

This information is relevant to them whether I have any “concern” for them or not. It’s relevant to men whether I have any concern for them or not.

I’m not presenting this for any other reason than “this appears to be the truth, an honest description of reality, use it if you wish”.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why would women take advice from a single 42 year old RP man? Isn’t that like fish taking advice from the fisherman?

I’ve already pointed that most MC women are married by 35 and that fact that LC women aren’t married in the same numbers has little to do with the wall.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why would women take advice from a single 42 year old RP man? Isn’t that like fish taking advice from the fisherman?

Who is advising them ? I’m not.

Describing reality is not advice.

Saying “the stove is hot....” is just describing reality. “.... so don’t touch it” is the advice.

What I’m doing here is the former, not the latter. Despite something lik a dozen women assuming my motivation is to do the latter and arguing against the phantom advice they think I’m giving that I’m not actually giving.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You are, read your comments again.

Jfc

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You read them again.

Read them as though there is a guy describing reality, that is not trying to imply anything or guide anyone to an answer.

Read them as though there is no implicit motivation at all.

And you'll see, there is simply no advice there.

When I write "A study says men like blondes" you read into that "TGP says I should die my hair blonde" or "TGP advises girls to not be brunettes" or "TGP is intending all the women to go blonde, because h likes blondes"... but you are doing that, not me.

[–]AstuteBlackManRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why do RP men have this fixed idea that "unmarried" must necessarily mean "off riding the CC, blithely unaware that her SMV/RMV is about to hit the skids?" I would hazard to say that most middle-to-upper class women are in a LTR that will lead to marriage by the age of 25.

So CC is a lower class issue? That doesn't make sense.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn’t say that it was a class issue. MC and higher women probably get it out of their systems and move on to marriage.

And a lot of MC and higher women avoid it altogether. A college degree is correlated with a lower N.

[–]philomexaSUNFUCKER2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This info is relevant for women from about 25. About 70% are still unmarried then

It’s very directly relevant to women over 30 (about 40% of these are still unmarried)

Do the stats delineate between unmarried versus LTR'd?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, only married.

However I have also seen stats that most women spend 3 years in “that” LTR before getting hitched.

But before you get all excited by that, this is just as relevant to those girls as to the ones not in LTRs as those LTR’d/Fiamce girls still have decisions to make this would inform. I covered that here....

https://en.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/b07xbj/what_science_has_to_say_about_changes_in_the_smp/eicy3pi/

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot6 points7 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

Or women who thought they had plenty of time, were keen to have all the fun they could in their 20s and had plans to find it easy to settle down in their 30s because “the men will still want me then as much as they do now”.

so a grand total of zero women

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 4 points5 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

No, it seems to be about 40% of women who are unmarried at 30 and 70% at 25.

Between 55-58% of unmarried people say they wish to get married.

So I’d place this about 20% of all women who will find themselves in this position at 30, and about 40% of women who will be in a position aged 25 where this knowledge would be of real use to their decision making.

You can dismiss between 20-40% of women if you wish as “not worth talking about”. Seems pretty dismissive to me.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot9 points10 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

why do you keep missing that these stats don't include people in LTRS.

a woman who at 30 who has been with the same guy for 4 years and is engaged is "Unmarried"

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 4 points5 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Yes,

And why do you think that just because she’s in an LTR she has no more decisions to make ?

What about deciding “shall I leave Geoff ?”.... what about her deciding “should I marry this guy, or can I get better to marry?”.... what about if he cheats, what’s her options either way then ?.... what should she say when he proposes ?... if he’s already proposed, should she go through with it ?

The information in OP is relevant to all these decisions women have to make even if they’re in LTRs.

It forms a great part of the information of what “the alternative” t her current setup is.

That only stops being relevant when the die is cast. The white dress is packed away neatly, and the babbies are incoming.

Whilst she’s still got decisions to make, information on the landscape she is making them within is directly relevant.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot7 points8 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

yeah she already knows the info. this is only brand new stuff for men.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 4 points5 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Again, no.

Or at least... thats not the impression you get from the girls round here who constantly argue this is not true and that "women always have the upper hand in the SMP/RMP at any age" and also that "anyone saying otherwise is just sharing a nerds revenge fantasy".

Women around here say this all the time. They don't believe this is true.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

i've literally never seen anyone say that here but besides that there is a vast demographic of girls beyond "PPD posters"

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

electra_cute already "challenged" me to find women on pPD saying this. All these links are from the past 7 days.

https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/b07xbj/what_science_has_to_say_about_changes_in_the_smp/eicvuug/

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

women always have the upper hand in the SMP/RMP at any age

Actually it’s the incels who say this

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

And the women too.

Who’d a thunk it ? Something BP women and incels agree on.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

He does not want a discussion that is not the piont of his post.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

so typical!!

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.-1 points0 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I have yet to see any study that looks at availability/supply effects. And we always just get weird marginal curves.

That is to say, the effects are pretty clear but the speculation about mechanisms don't ever seem to be directly tested. Which I think is curious.

EvoPsych in general seems to enjoy generating hypotheses but doesn't like to do the grunt work of actually testing them. What's going on right now with the ovulatory shift hypothesis stuff where the results of carefully designed studies are knee-capping the claims should be a warning that underscores the flimsy nature of EvoPsych.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Go read the study. It includes about 50 seperate studies, accross multiple cultures, using multiple methods, that all support this argument.

Anyone who spent even 5 mins reading the 2nd link could not say "Evo-Psych guys can't be bothered to do the studies". It's laughable given the content of that paper. Actually laughable.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.-1 points0 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

I have read plenty and as I said it's all hypothesis-generating research and very little or no confirmatory work has been done.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

No read this study.

You are talking utter bollocks about this study. And you would knwo so if you clicked on it. From the abstract...

We review voluminous evidence for mate preferences for age and the substantial and varied behavioral sequelae of those preferences. These include (a) in actual marriage decisions, men choose younger wives, and women choose older husbands, on average in all of the dozens of cultures studied; (b) in personal advertisements, men and women seek partners consistent with their expressed age preferences; (c) chronological age determines number of “hits” received in online dating services; (d) the age of potential bride influences the amount of money spent on premarriage customs; (e) men’s mate retention effort, including commitment manipulation, resource provisioning, and intrasexual threats, is significantly predicted by the wife’s age; and (f) chronological age is an important sex-linked cause of divorce. The far-reaching ramifications of age also extend to (g) tactics of intrasexual competition, (h) predictors of mate value discrepancies, (i) victims of sex crimes, and (j) prostitution patterns. Finally, chronological age predicts (k) probability of remarriage, and (l) the age gap between grooms and brides upon remarriage. We synthesize evidence from diverse methods, across different cultures, and over time spans of centuries. Massive converging evidence provides a powerful, yet complex, understanding of the evolutionary importance of age in multiple mating outcomes over the human life span

Like... this article is nothing but 100 different surveys, experiments, measurements and other means of gathering data.

All of the data points in the same direction.

You are literally making shit up here. You are literally saying "I have no idea what I am talking about, so I am assuming this study conforms to all my prejudices about evo-psych and can't be bothered to spend the 5 minutes it would take to expose how wrong I am"

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.-1 points0 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

I don't really know what you are responding to? All of that is hypothesis generation. Saying that something is hypothesis generation doesn't mean that the observations are false. Meta studies are typically hypothesis generation.

Hypothesis generation is an important component of the scientific process, but it's not confirmation.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Are you unable to read the english lanuguage ?

This is not hypothesis generation. This is explicitly a collation of all the confirmations of the hypothesis.

A few hundred separate and independent confirmations. Via several dozen methods. Across about 100 countries.

You're just to lazy to read the study, so you're making a fool of yourself. If you spent 5 minutes with it you'd realise, but you won't. You'd rather carry on being wrong.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Are you capable of replying without ad hom and incivility?

What is even under dispute here?

Meta analysis is not confirmatory science.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

Yes, but I tried that several times first without getting you to so much as go look.

Seems like you still haven't.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Do you have anything to discuss beyond whether you think I have read something or not? I'm not here to argue your opinions and feelings.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope-2 points-1 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

the concept of the wall isn't dumb because women stay hot until theyre 80.

A typo? Or I will explode laughing. Even a white knight loser will laugh at that.

the average woman is married in her 20s long before she ever crashes into it

Look at the average age when women get married. It's around 28-29.

[–]Texastentialism 1 points [recovered]  (13 children) | Copy Link

Look at the average age when women get married. It's around 28-29.

Yes, after 3-5 years of dating and engagement. Which means she spent most of her 20s partnered up with her eventual spouse.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Every single fucking time this topic comes up, PPD women have to point this fact out. EVERY SINGLE TIME. Do these men think that women wake up when they're 28, go outside, chloroform the first passing dude they see, and smuggle him into a courthouse?

[–]Texastentialism 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

The real question is does she at least have sex with him before chloroforming him or does she play hard to get?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't have time to fuck around. Let's get this box checked and then we can discuss sex or whatever.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

At least squeeze the package to see what you're getting; might end up with a micropenis!

[–]chaddad90000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And sometimes the 3-5 years of cohabitation just doesn't work out for whatever reason. I knew plenty of women who were Husband Hunting in their early 30s. (And most found one.)

[–]rus9384Misanthrope1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Maybe. I honestly think there are just enough women who are not interested in CCing at all and start looking for a high RMV man ASAP. Probably, they get married by 25. Women who got married in 29 probably either were at lower MV or were interested in having fun.

[–]Texastentialism 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

I got married at 29 after dating/living with my husband for six years. My friends are all engaged or recently married in their late twenties/early thirties and they were all in 5+ year LTRs before getting married. This is not unusual at all, it's the norm for my generation.

Even if if she gets married at 29 after 3-4 years of dating, she still met her husband at 25 or 26. Hardly post wall.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

And who argues women initiate first serious LTR post wall? There are women who divorce and they are over 30 typically. For them it's quite harder.

[–]Texastentialism 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't know, you're the one who brought up that average age of marriage is 28. What was your point in bringing that up?

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thought something is missing. Well, I missed something.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That thing you're missing is called "speaking English sufficiently well to participate in complex conversations about culture and ideas"

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

He is some Russian dude like I care what he thinks.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

i'm saying people deny the wall for reasons beyond thinking women just stay hot forever

and yes the average age of marriage is late 20s. and then you have a huge chunk of women already in marriage tracked ltrs getting married in their early 30s. women who are still completely single with no prospects for marriage and still actually prioritizing marriage are a minority

[–]philomexaSUNFUCKER0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

age when women get married. It's around 28-29.

Sure, after a multi year LTR they've been in since their early to mid 20's.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Look at the average age when women get married. It's around 28-29.

Yeah man but they gotta meet their spouse, date and then at the end of that get married. That takes about 4 years as data shows.

[–]rus9384Misanthrope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I already got that.

[–]Venicedreaming6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Given divorces are at a much higher rate when occurred before mid 20, hard pass on all the advices your SMV and RMV implies. It’s pretty common knowledge that the more you put off marriage and the older you are, the harder it is to find a spouse. I don’t think anyone denies this. If they do they’re delusional. This is just fact of life like sky is blue. But to marry when you’re super young, that’s equally foolish. Taken kids into account, 33 is really late for marriage. The ideal marrying age is 25-30. Men shouldn’t wait too long also, older fathers have more defective offsprings

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Given divorces are at a much higher rate when occurred before mid 20, hard pass on all the advices your SMV and RMV implies.

What advice do you think is implied for women ? I didn't give any, although the RPWs might.

It’s pretty common knowledge that the more you put off marriage and the older you are, the harder it is to find a spouse. I don’t think anyone denies this. If they do they’re delusional. This is just fact of life like sky is blue.

I deny it. What you just said above is wrong. That is only true for women.

For men, the older you get the easier it is to get a spouse.

This isn't true for everyone, just women. For men the opposite is true.

But to marry when you’re super young, that’s equally foolish.

How so ? This advice would imply that women should "secure their future marriage partner" sometime between 21-25.

Given that usually about 3 years elapse between snagging him and the marriage that would mean that those women would be getting married 24-28 which is, basically, the average age of first marriage for women. The median age of first marriage in the US is 26.8. Slap bang in that window.

How is that "early marriage" ?

33 is really late for marriage. The ideal marrying age is 25-30.

Yes, I don't think we're disagreeing here.

Men shouldn’t wait too long also, older fathers have more defective offsprings

Well, yes, chances of male mutation to go up. Just not enough for this to affect males decision making much. It's not like the way women's fertility/quality of children decline as they approach 40 or anything.

I think the men still on the market then are more interested in enjoying their "happy hunting ground" 28-38.

[–]Venicedreaming1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

The one thing I disagree with is that somehow older men have an easier time finding marriage. How old are we talking about here? Men older than 40 is gonna have a sucky time finding a life partner. And it’s not only because he’s not valuable enough, just that when people get to that age they are so used to being alone anything different is too disruptive. Crossing that line between 35 and 40, if you’re still alone the odds say you will likely stay alone men or women. All this SMV RMV may be somewhat relevant to a certain point, then it’s all crapshoot

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

The one thing I disagree with is that somehow older men have an easier time finding marriage. How old are we talking about here? Men older than 40 is gonna have a sucky time finding a life partner.

No. Men have no trouble finding life partners at any age post about 30. There are many women 30-40 who are desperate for a life partner. And they're willing to date as far up as 50 (for the 40 yo's) to get one.

By the time men reach 50... they also start to benefit from the fact that many of the males are dying and leaving widows too.

And it’s not only because he’s not valuable enough, just that when people get to that age they are so used to being alone anything different is too disruptive.

Well, thats different. If he doesn't want a partner thats fine.

They're just there if he wants one.

Crossing that line between 35 and 40, if you’re still alone the odds say you will likely stay alone men or women.

No, again, this is inappropriately assuming that men and women face the same SMP/RMP issues. Thats not how it works.

Women post 40 are, basically, done (if they haven't already been married). Men post 40 can still get a life partner any time they want, and can probably get a fertile one and have kids right up until 50+.

He won't have to stay alone unless he wants to.

All this SMV RMV may be somewhat relevant to a certain point, then it’s all crapshoot

It's relevant whilst either partner is fertile. When both are not, it loses most relevance. However, as for men thats often north of 60 it stays relevant for men for almost their whole lives.

[–]Venicedreaming3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Older women still get married more than older men though https://flowingdata.com/2017/11/01/who-is-married-by-now/

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Thats not the right data. Thats "everyone who has married at least once".

You want the data on "how many people at each age are currently married [regardless of whether this is 1st, 2nd or 3rd time etc]"

Thats this chart...

https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/chalabi-datalab-marriage-age-1.png

As you can see, from 35 onwards men have far less trouble with this than women.

[–]Venicedreaming4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Women initiate like 70% of all divorces though, no? So doesn’t that mean older women are single by choice also?

My stats is still relevant, more women get married than men on average in their lifetime, not much higher though. Women still get more commitment in her lifetime, whether she wants to keep it is another story. And more men are never married than women.

Your stat is interesting too, most men and women find a spouse around 20-30, about 60%. Then the next 20% of men finds marriage around 30-50, and the last 20% later in life. While for women looks like that’s when divorces start happening.

All in all from these data points, marriage is still a strong institution with very high participants. Only a small percentage of forever loners. It’s not all doom and gloom like TRP suggests

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women initiate like 70% of all divorces though, no? So doesn’t that mean older women are single by choice also?

No, not if they want to remarry but can't it doesn't.

We were discussing whether it's "as hard for a man to get married post 35 as it is for a woman".... I think you can see now that this is wrong, and it's far easier for men than women.

We can move onto discussing divorce if you want, but that original point appears to be satisfied now.

My stats is still relevant, more women get married than men on average in their lifetime, not much higher though. Women still get more commitment in her lifetime, whether she wants to keep it is another story. And more men are never married than women.

But the question was not "who gets married more".... it was "do men over 35 have an easier time getting married than women" they do.

We wern't discussing who had an easier time over all ages, just for over 35s.

Your stat is interesting too, most men and women find a spouse around 20-30, about 60%. Then the next 20% of men finds marriage around 30-50, and the last 20% later in life. While for women looks like that’s when divorces start happening.

It's really hard to see whats happening from that graph I'm afraid.

I could spin a theory as to what it shows, but we couldn't decide who is right without much better data.

All in all from these data points, marriage is still a strong institution with very high participants. Only a small percentage of forever loners. It’s not all doom and gloom like TRP suggests

RP isn't doom and gloom. Thats the incels.

RP is "here is how to get what you want, and a path to get there anyone can follow".

Thats not doom and gloom, it's the opposite. It is "And here is the way out ....."

[–]Venicedreaming0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I’m interested too how mortality between men and women plays in these data. The downward trend in married women could be caused by their husband died off.

Older men have it better in relationships, that doesn’t surprise me much, the whole stereotype about upgrading wives is not without cause

The only surprising info for me is that while most women marry once, only half stay married, despite being at a disadvantage in older age. And men is actually the marrying type haha

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I’m interested too how mortality between men and women plays in these data. The downward trend in married women could be caused by their husband died off.

Well it's possibly a bit early for that at the age the drop off happens. But, this does have a big role to play in the "post 55 SMP/RMP" ... For this very reason men are in much higher demand there.

Older men have it better in relationships, that doesn’t surprise me much, the whole stereotype about upgrading wives is not without cause

Yes, men are attracted to youth (almost exclusively) and women to status (among many other things, status just being the most important).

In so far as men tend to gain status as they age (if they're humaning right) this helps older men immensely compared to younger men.

The only surprising info for me is that while most women marry once, only half stay married, despite being at a disadvantage in older age. And men is actually the marrying type haha

well I think they both want to remarry.

The issue is that the guys can do so, but the girls cannot... because the guys their own age marry down.

It's covered in the study from OP somewhere. .There is a whole section on the remarriage data on pg 24/25...

Here is the conclusion at the end...

Men, on average, fare better on the remarriage market than do women—a trend that increases with increasing age. Men are more likely to remarry than women after divorce or widowing and this difference persists across countries and across time. Men are also more likely than their exwives to acquire partners who better match their mate preferences both absolutely and relative to their first partners. These sex differences occur because remarrying men are able to leverage their increased age, presumably tracking their on-average increased resource holding potential, into higher mate value and better mate choices. Women’s increased age lowers their overall mate value as a function of decreased fecundity and reproductive value, forcing them to compromise. Coupled with findings indicating that men and women each prefer and pursue partners younger and older than themselves, respectively, remarriage data provides evidence that age preferences are robustly manifested in mating behavior—a translation of preferences into actual matings that is moderated by mate value.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It did so because RP frequently draws such graphs based on lived experience, only to have that challenged by people saying “give me a scientific graph, not your made up with crayons version”.

Bro, you just found one of many graphs like that, Tinder, OkCupid, Lamos et al, etc. There is a lot of researches like that. all say the same. Blue piller's incapability of comprehending the concept of repeated equal measures is a problem of their own, not TRP's.

Well, there it is. The scientific data matching RPs roughly drawn with crayons version

This is a graph made based on the data of a research paid by tinder parent company. Look for countein's video, he explains. This is another one of the researches which corroborate TRP. The curves may be different but the fact that they still maintain roughly the same form does not change.

You are not giving the deserved credit to The RP men. They are not scientists but they are not stupid or moved by emotions alone.

Heh, but I am not surprised. I was surprised when I discovered it too, many brains are really better than one, I don't think a single man would be able to make such accurate predictions.

Basically the point at which a woman is the highest value as a long term mate is around age 21-22 and declines rapidly to almost 0 around 42. The point at which she is highest value for a ONS or similar thing is 27-28 and declines to almost 0 only around 48. The study also shows males actual behaviour conforms closely to this preference.

Remembering this is a study mostly about the first world, there is a reason TRP say the peak is at 25. Because in places like here in Brazil the peak is around 22. for example. The rest of the not so rich world have it harder, making the average to be lower. To compensate I given the advice to say "25" instead of "30" to the TRP sub.

This explains one of the features of the wall that RP noticed as a reality but had no real explanation for (Chad is happy to shag the 35 yo girls, but doesn’t want to marry one).

Basically a 33 yo woman has 90% of her short term mate value intact, at the same point she has already lost 75% of her long term mate value. I’m not surprised almost all the guys will still sleep with her, but only the lowest value of those males want to “put a ring on it”. The same woman aged 24 would have had many more guys trying to put that ring on.

Again, old news. Have you been reading the sidebar? There are many good sources or lists for these.

I would really recommend giving the meta analysis a scan first.

Really nice article, can you put it in the TRP sub? They may need it as it is relatively new. It will fire conversations until the end of the month.

I consider this meta-analysis to be good but I will not participate in the discussion, as I, like most old school RP theory-crafters, read most of the articles so it is all old news for us. I liked the new researches tho.

It will be part of my library for future articles for sure. Wait for some more empiric data my friend. Look for the keyword: "Game theory" in economy journals.

[–]MercyYouMercyMe2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you have a link to that okcupid data article? They took it down after it triggered people and I haven't been able to find it since.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I lost it too, I use mostly this article which is the summary of the study https://archive.is/ZJymw#selection-559.33-559.98

[–]xx-Rain_Maker-xx0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

We were taking about the entire research combined data, with unaltered data like in the blog (The PDF) but thank you.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly how the FSM works too though, even if a woman has no reason to get married in her early 20's (educated, own money, etc) but gets a really fantastic prospect then nobody cares about her age. It's "If you're gonna do it, do it now because it won't get any better!" and "Kids, you better know what the deal is before agreeing to anything." from the women who matter in her life.

There's another thread here about "whyyyy won't women admit they're after resources when they say security?" or some such thing. This has been brought up before, you go for someone in their early 20's, you accept they don't have the time put in to have a career that matches someone 28+ it's just not possible...save nepotism or some similar dumb luck. A (smart) man going after that age range with kids on the brain sooner rather than later isn't breaking out into a cold sweat wondering who is paying for the date and if he's contributing to some "gynocentric conspiracy."

Some struggling rando "making an honest woman" out of a young piece of ass he happened to knock up isn't the same thing at all to women.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is one of the best posts ever made on PPD, possibly even the best post. If you'd been more active with data like this earlier the "TRP is rael science" claims made early on would have carried way more weight. I really never believed that and just saw it as sales heuristics, but now I'm yet again reconsidering my position.

It's really too bad so many of the blues had such petulant, underwhelming replies to this entirely good faith post. Sadly, they keep doing this, even the ones who used to be cool and make actual effort towards good faith discussion.

Maybe we're all just getting sick of ppd

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is one of the best posts ever made on PPD, possibly even the best post. If you'd been more active with data like this earlier the "TRP is rael science" claims made early on would have carried way more weight. I really never believed that and just saw it as sales heuristics, but now I'm yet again reconsidering my position

Well it can be both.

If TRP in its non-scientific trial and error manner discovered a truth about reality. A heuristic that works. Then you’d expect scientists coming along later and doing it “properly” to discover the same truth about reality too.

This was clearly a case of convergent discovery. Here RP “discovered” this about 10-15 years ago. The paper I used above was only published in August 2018 (!). The RP guys discovered this separately from science.... and when science got to the same chunk of reality they discovered that RP was essentially right. As you’d expect.

Maybe a bunch of greasy car mechanics discover how to make a car go 20 mph faster. They don’t know why, they have a Turbo-Woosher gizmo that just works. The fact that it works means that when physicists look into it they’ll be able to describe why it works in scientific language.... “Ah, the thing you’re calling a Turbo-Woosher seems to be compressing the air, allowing more fuel to burn in the same time period. That means more power to the wheels and explains why the car goes faster”.

To which the mechanics say “Yeah, we know. Turbo-Wooshers make cars go faster. That’s why we’ve been fitting them to cars for 20 years. It’s nice you eggheads have finally worked out why turbo-wooshers work. we were always curious about that. But we already knew they worked because we can see the cars are going faster..”

It's really too bad so many of the blues had such petulant, underwhelming replies to this entirely good faith post. Sadly, they keep doing this, even the ones who used to be cool and make actual effort towards good faith discussion.

They’re really reluctant to adjust their views to be in line with reality. They’ve become so invested in their views they’d rather stay wrong than change them.

Everyone starts out “Wrong as Fuck”. Only people who refuse to admit they are wrong stay that way. Anyone prepared to say “OK, this description of reality is better. I’m changing my position to this, because it’s clearly right” gets righter.

Any RPM has already done so at least once (changing from BP to RP).

Most BP posters have never done this, not even once. They’re invested in the RP guys being wrong, because they absolutely DO NOT WANT to admit those misogynist assholes are right.

We are right. We’re just misogynist assholes.

No one ever said the truth was only discovered by nice people.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

no one ever said the truth was only discovered by nice people

Should be a TRP tagline imo

Also this post should be shared on TRP

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ha,

After the debate debacle I don't think I'm welcome over there.

[–]plentyoffishes9 points10 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

The wall is also region-specific. You can't generalize like that. Where I live in CA, women as old as 36 can still get zillions of dates and have men banging down their door by just opening a Tinder account. Sure they may get slightly less suitors than a 25yo, but definitely no shortage of men for them.

Meanwhile, a 30yo woman in Iowa would likely be considered over the hill and have a tough time finding dates.

Same goes for different countries. In some countries, a 26yo single woman is terrified of not finding anyone, because her society says she should have been having kids 7-8 years ago.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The wall is also region-specific. You can't generalize like that. Where I live in CA, women as old as 36 can still get zillions of dates and have men banging down their door by just opening a Tinder account. Sure they may get slightly less suitors than a 25yo, but definitely no shortage of men for them.

You’re not understanding what I’m saying in OP.

Yes, I would expect men still to be knocking down their door for dates.

The issue is not that men don’t want to sleep with them. They want to sleep with them just fine.

It’s that those women have already lost their best chance of getting a highly desirable Male to marry them.

What they have now is desirable men who will shag them... and undesirable men who will marry them.

Both types will still continue knocking down their door on tinder, though.

Meanwhile, a 30yo woman in Iowa would likely be considered over the hill and have a tough time finding dates

Nope, she’ll still get dates too. Dates aren’t the problem. Guys trying to shag them aren’t the problem.

Only getting proposals are the problem.

Same goes for different countries. In some countries, a 26yo single woman is terrified of not finding anyone, because her society says she should have been having kids 7-8 years ago.

If you’d have followed the links in OP you’d have learned that this is a cross sultural analysis.

It’s tied to female fertility and does not vary by culture.

When studied in all cultures the same effect is found in every one studied.

Sometimes it is a little larger, sometimes a little smaller, but it’s always there.

If you follow the link you’ll find data there from the US, Gambia, Korea, Japan, Tanzania, Norway, Finland, Brazil, Germany, Mexico, and about 50 other countries.

This is not a US specific study. This is a global meta analysis of about 40 years of international research.

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, this is my experience. Where I live, there are very different SMPs based on age

[–]speltspelt1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women should probably aim to pair up a little before the average marriage age for their demographic/culture.

[–]AstuteBlackManRed Pill Man2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The wall is also region-specific. You can't generalize like that. Where I live in CA, women as old as 36 can still get zillions of dates and have men banging down their door by just opening a Tinder account. Sure they may get slightly less suitors than a 25yo, but definitely no shortage of men for them.

Post is making a clear distinction between casual hook ups and marriage material

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are different RMPs, too. My area is rife with second and third marriages, trophy wives, and gold diggers. It's a bit of an outlier, as well, in that men primarily date within their age match

[–]plentyoffishes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was referring to both, including what the post was discussing.

[–]MercyYouMercyMe8 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Can none of you people fucking read? Fucking a 36 year old is not the same thing as committing to a 36 year old. Read the damn post.

[–]chaddad90008 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

40+ guys think 36 year old fit and still sorta fertile women are hot and commit to them.

A lot of these guys are divorced and already have kids and seem to be on the trp plan of hit the gym and buy a motorcycle.

[–]MercyYouMercyMe-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The red pill plan of committing to post wall women? Are you all bots?

[–]chaddad90004 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure these guys like to larp about their 36 yo yogabutt "plate", but when the old fat ex-wife comes around, you bet she's his girlfriend.

[–]plentyoffishes1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Take it easy bro. I said nothing about fucking. I can guarnfuckintee you that there are hoards of dudes wanting to get into a relationship with a good looking 36yo, she would have no problem finding a long term BF or husband.

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Some towns in the Midwest people get married before college as standard; on some coastal areas everyone would panic and look at you like you have 3 heads if you said you were marrying at 17.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Think of a female that’s quite old, say 28.

This 52-year-old woman is chuckling at you kids and your theories.

Attractive people at any age will have options. Unattractive people, regardless of age, will struggle.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yes,

But as women age they get markedly less attractive to their same age peers in a way men just do not.

The male age females prefer

The female age males prefer

Attractive people do have options at any age. Unattractive people struggle, at any age.

BUT.... as women age they get significantly less attractive, and as men age they don't and (if they do the right things) they acquire status that makes them more attractive than they were previously.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

As men age most go bald ... lol. (Although a smart woman realizes this isn't a character flaw and doesn't hold it against a guy.)

Some people age well ... probably a combination of genetics and lifestyle choices. Some people age badly ... again for the same reasons. I really don't think it splits along gender lines.

I do think older men with "status" are more capable of attracting gold-diggers but is that really a win? Hmmm ...

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

No, not just “gold diggers”. Women genuinely sexually interested.

Look at Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. She was genuinely sexually attracted, there was no gold available to dig. But the fact he was the president gave him enough status for the sexually attraction to jump the 27 year age gap.

Look at all the pretty secretaries that have affairs with the boss. The interns having affairs with politicians. The groupies throwing themselves at the feet of aging rock stars.

They’re not in it for the benjamins, there is genuine sexual attraction going on driven by the high status of the man (and that being desirable to women) and by the youth of the woman (and that being desirable to men).

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You don't think those secretaries and interns aren't dreaming that maybe the boss will leave his wife for her? You don't think the groupie is hoping she's the one who's so special the rock star will make her "his girl"? I'd say these women are betting on a long shot, that's all.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

You don't think those secretaries and interns aren't dreaming that maybe the boss will leave his wife for her?

They probably are in a “sigh, he’s so sexy. I wish he’d leave her for me” way.

They’re not in a “Aha! My master plan will come to fruition and I’ll be stinking rich!” way.

That’s not why they’re fucking the boss.

You don't think the groupie is hoping she's the one who's so special the rock star will make her "his girl"?

Again YES in a “I want him to want me” way. Not in a “Counting the money I’ll get in the divorce” way.

I'd say these women are betting on a long shot, that's all.

I’d say these women are sexually attracted, and so don’t mind having some sexy fun if it also comes with a reaaaly long shot.

They’re not sleeping with guys they find repulsive just for that reaaaaly long shot at a big payoff. It’s obvious in the examples I used no payoff is coming.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh, I'm not saying that they find the guys repulsive ... just that the attraction is based on a long shot that the guy may serve their imperatives in some way. (Because that's what women REALLY want ... a guy who will serve their imperatives. And a man who is rich or powerful obviously has more to offer in this department than some average working joe.)

In this respect, having a ONS with a billionaire is like buying a Powerball ticket. It may not pay out -- it probably won't -- but if it does, it REALLY pays!

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

OK, but thats not a gold dig.

Gold diggers are “women who sleep with men they find repulsive in order to get their hands on his cash”.

If she is “sleeping with a man she’s actually attracted to, with a tiny chance of winning the lottery rolled in” then that’s not a gold dog, and she’s not a gold digger.

The second thing is what’s happening here when a groupie sleeps with a rock star.... or the intern with the charismatic politician... or the sectretary with the dominant boss.

What they’re doing isn’t gold digging. It’s sleeping with men they’re sexually attracted to because status is sexually attractive to women (but not men).

[–]EsauTheRed0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Are we talking attraction for sex, or attraction for sex + a family and biological children?

Women past 40 are pretty much useless for the latter

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How many people past 40 are looking to start a family though? Egads!

[–]EsauTheRed0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Given men are still fertile, plenty of men

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have only met a couple of men in my entire life who actually wanted children, period. (Most seem to go along with their wife's wishes in this regard.)

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19931 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

what women should accept is that their future lies in happy singledom, not marrying / LTRing males.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women also receive constant attention by men nowadays, men are getting more thirsty and lonely

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Hey if that works for them, cool.

Why not buy a cat or two ? That seems to help.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19930 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

why would you say that?

does your brain operate on old tropes, unable to come up with novel ones?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because that appears the traditional way that girls make this deal work. The cats help.

[–]cakenon1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Darwin level IQ.

[–]AstuteBlackManRed Pill Man2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

The amount of denial in this thread is astounding.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I know.

It was the same when I did a scientific thread on Hypergamy too.

Maybe in couple of weeks I'll do another one. It'll have the same result.

People don't want to hear stuff that doesn't confirm the prejudices they came into the thread with.

[–]AstuteBlackManRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It's one of the reasons why I cant stand this sub. People just make sub par attacks and bring in statistics that support their argument but ignore statistics that go against their argument.

I dont see how people can look over this data and continually deny the existence of the wall.

People don't want to hear stuff that doesn't confirm the prejudices they came into the thread with.

Why do people still debate then? Utterly ridiculous. Bloopers are lost

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I still debate because it's not them I'm trying to convince.

They're not my audience. They're my opponent. My foil.

I rely on them saying dumb things, that I can then respond to intelligently and with good arguments.

Then... the 2-3,000 lurkers who read every thread on PPD get to see my arguments presented well and convincingly, and their arguments presented stupidly and in a dumb way, and that the arguments I am making can easily win the debate.

Many of those 2-3000 readers are unaligned and are reading PPD as they're open to changing their mind. They're not invested in one side or the other like someone commenting on a thread is. They're listening for good arguments that they can see are convincing.

What I'm almost always doing is changing minds out there in lurkerdom. Convincing minds that can be convinced. My audience is all the people with no dog in this hunt, just reading with an open mind.

Hi Lurky Friends!

[–]AstuteBlackManRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Noble and understandable. Nice

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But see, you are the one trying to convince the lurkers of a thing. What changes do you hope to see in people? Marrying young?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No,

Lurkers who get a view of how reality is, and then plug that into how they make decisions.

It up to them how they use it, how they adjust what they were doing in light of reality.

I'm just trying to expose a little bit of reality about how humans work.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That is fine.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer2 points3 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Who is denying this does not happen? And why does it matter if this is true?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 14 points15 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

BP girls deny this happens all over PPD all the time.

It matters whether it’s true as the better you know the relationship landscape, the more able you are to navigate this to get what you want.

[–]woefulwank 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Infuriating thread. Solid data.

Again the sexes are made distinct by the male side taking the data and going somewhere with it, and the female side, more concerned with semantics.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah it shouldn't surprise me anymore but it still does.

In a week there will be a "The Wall doesn't exist" thread and all the women arguing here "duh, of course this is true but you said it wrong" will be back to "Is SO not true. Just T'isnt".

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer4 points5 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

BP girls deny this happens all over PPD all the time.

I really do not think any Blue Pill women would disagree with your post, they would probably disagree with other things and the implications Red Pill users draw from a post like yours. Can you tell me who specifically denies it? It should be easy for you if it "happens all over PPD all the time".

It matters whether it’s true as the better you know the relationship landscape, the more able you are to navigate this to get what you want.

How does this better help you navigate the "relationship landscape"?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 11 points12 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I really do not think any Blue Pill women would disagree with your post,

See below. They’re already disagree with the post. Once it’s more than 15m old they’ll be lots of them disagreeing with it.

they would probably disagree with other things and the implications Red Pill users draw from a post like yours.

Perhaps. More likely I think they’re going to disagree with “what they think my motivations are for this post”. Basically, they’re going to think I’m being mean to girls and argue back that I shouldn’t be mean to girls and I must be an old fat ugly guy wishing on a star in order to post the above. That’s usually how it goes.

Can you tell me who specifically denies it?

Can you tell me you’ve not seen girls saying “it’s untrue, women have the upper hand in the SMP at all ages” ?

Or “Women who are over 45 can be more attractive than many women under 30” ?

Or “Men are projecting their wish fulfilment fantasies on the SMP. The wall is just a teenaged neckbeards revenge fantasy” ?

I see those comments all the time. You can search PPD for them as easily as I can if you want to identify the individual girls saying them.

How does this better help you navigate the "relationship landscape"?

Women come to a natural assumption that “the RMP I’ve experienced up until now will continue indefinitely” they assume it will always be as it has been.

As women aged 24 have just experienced the highest power in the market they’ve ever had, they assume this will continue, and they decide “I can leave the settling down until later”.

Then they get to 30-33-35 and discover that the RMP has changed. And it’s too late. There is no going back. They’re now stuck with a “bad” RMP that will only get worse, meaning they’ll have to make much larger compromises on their hubby candidate than they would have done at an earlier age.

Badically, fairly natural assumptions (the future will be like the present) cause them to make bad choices early on that cant be unmade, leading to worse outcomes for them in the end.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer5 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

See below. They’re already disagree with the post. Once it’s more than 15m old they’ll be lots of them disagreeing with it.

Well no, you wrote this post in response to it. Could you at the very least name someone and ping them?

Can you tell me you’ve not seen girls saying “it’s untrue, women have the upper hand in the SMP at all ages” ?

Someone from the subreddit, apparently there is a lot of them and it happens "all the time", so it should be easy to find, correct?

Women come to a natural assumption that “the RMP I’ve experienced up until now will continue indefinitely” they assume it will always be as it has been.

As women aged 24 have just experienced the highest power in the market they’ve ever had, they assume this will continue, and they decide “I can leave the settling down until later”.

Then they get to 30-33-35 and discover that the SMP changed. And it’s too late. There is no going back. They’re now stuck with a bad RMP that will only get worse.

Badically, fairly natural assumptions (the future will be like the present) cause them to make bad choices early on that cant be in made, leading to worse outcomes for them.

I do not know, I think the hundred billion dollar anti-aging beauty industry shows that a lot women already know their beauty fades with age. Is it not a common trope for women to worry about ageing?

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Well no, you wrote this post in response to it. Could you at the very least name someone and ping them?

No I didn’t. There was no single poster I was responsding to so much as a common attitude I see on PPD.

Here is goat representing it on this thread as I said it would be represented (guessing motivations)

https://en.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/b07xbj/what_science_has_to_say_about_changes_in_the_smp/eicrpsz/?context=3

Someone from the subreddit, apparently there is a lot of them and it happens "all the time", so it should be easy to find, correct?

Sigh, you’re going to make me search ? Fine. In addition to goat...

BeyondAnyPill 6 days ago - https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/axuvcl/my_thoughts_about_the_wall/

EsemuialB 5 days ago -https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/axuvcl/my_thoughts_about_the_wall/ehx8n3h/

Neurochemicalwarfare 6 days ago -https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/axuvcl/my_thoughts_about_the_wall/ehwx7d1/

Dicklord airplane 6 days ago - https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/axuvcl/my_thoughts_about_the_wall/ehwybya/

Poppy_blu 5 days ago - https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/axuvcl/my_thoughts_about_the_wall/ehyd2al/

Friendly tone 5 days ago - https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/axuvcl/my_thoughts_about_the_wall/ehxmly7/

Lastoftheavars 4 days ago - https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/axuvcl/my_thoughts_about_the_wall/ei2076d/

I do not know, I think the hundred billion dollar anti-aging beauty industry shows that a lot women already know their beauty fades with age. Is it not a common trope for women to worry about ageing?

Yes but “humans age” is not the same as “the dating market changes massively for women after they hit 30”.

Many of the women in the above comments think that “my aging is fine, because the men also age, and just like me people our own age stay just as attractive”.

They do for women.

They don’t for men.

There is a strategic trap here that nature has set for women that most women are unaware of, and very commonly dismiss as “a fantasy of lonely men” when told about it.

The point of using the science is to show it’s not a fantasy of lonely men, it’s a real effect. One men should look forward to and target for their own ends. And one women should seek to avoid and route around for their own ends.

[–]goatismycopilotJohnI'monlydancing3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, I did not say my aging is fine or the aging of women is fine and men age to. What I said was that when average men age they are also mostly not attractive but still want to date younger women who are not interested in them unless they are something more than an average dude. The idea that an older man who is a millionaire could buy himself a wife is commonly accepted truth. Men with money do not hit the wall. Average dudes hit the wall they are not 55 and dating a 23 year old. Don't call me out for a comment I did not make, very disingenuous and intellectually vacant.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What has any of this got to do with what I said ?

None of this has anything to do with it at all.

Please go and argue with someone that believes “55 yo can date 23 yo” instead.

I’m sure you can find one somewhere.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It does not really look like they are denying "the wall" outright, it looks more as if those comments are addressing the nuances of it that Red Pill users might seem to often miss. People are generally going to be less attractive as they age(this applies to men too). It does not seem like people are denying it, they even address it directly.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Did you read them ?

Half of them outright described it as “utterly false and only talked about because it’s a neckbeard revenge fantasy”.

And, again, this is not about “people getting less attractive as they age”.

It’s about a particular change in the nature of the SMP that occurs for women around age 30.

It’s as though I am discussing “tank strategies during WWII and their application to modern warfare” and you’re replying “Yes, everyone accepts the big gun goes bang. What’s the issue ?”

The issue is that there are things here that are important things to discuss that are not just “big gun goes bang” and can’t be reduced to that.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Half of them outright described it as “utterly false and only talked about because it’s a neckbeard revenge fantasy”.

I do not think they are saying it is false, but yes it does sound like a revenge fantasy a lot of the time. A lot of people on here say men go up with value as they age, while women go down and the way it is describe is that it does come off as a revenge fantasy.

It’s as though I am discussing “tank strategies during WWII and their application to modern warfare” and you’re replying “Yes, everyone accepts the big gun goes bang. What’s the issue ?”

But what you seem to be doing is tank tank strategies is you are saying a "T-34 is superior to a M4 Sherman" and no one is actually disagreeing with that point. Women seem to be completely aware of how ageing impacts their value to men, just as most war historians are aware of the impact the T-34 had on the development of tanks and armored vehicles.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not think they are saying it is false, but yes it does sound like a revenge fantasy a lot of the time. A lot of people on here say men go up with value as they age, while women go down and the way it is describe is that it does come off as a revenge fantasy.

They way they describe it may make it seem like that.

However, as you can see from the science the bald fact underlying that ("men go up with value as they age, while women go down") is correct.

But what you seem to be doing is tank tank strategies is you are saying a "T-34 is superior to a M4 Sherman" and no one is actually disagreeing with that point. Women seem to be completely aware of how ageing impacts their value to men, just as most war historians are aware of the impact the T-34 had on the development of tanks and armored vehicles.

They're not. They're aware that as they age they get less good looking, check. However, they extremely often pair this with "but as men age they get less good looking too, so it all evens out".

Very much NOT check.

So they miss the big implication of the difference in preferences, the wall.

To use your analogy above... they pair "Everyone knows T-34 is superior to a M4 Sherman" with "But everyone also knows that American soldiers are just braver, and that makes up the difference".

That causes them to make bad strategic choices.

They should learn from the initial statement something like "I need 150 shermans to defeat 100 T-34s".... instead they carry on believing "100 shermans are enough" and then drive straight into a battle they can't win due to their self-induced blindness considering how he different men/women situations plays out in the 30-45 SMP/RMP.

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not know, I think the hundred billion dollar anti-aging beauty industry shows that a lot women already know their beauty fades with age. Is it not a common trope for women to worry about ageing?

I would not have a career if women weren't obsessed with staving off the signs of aging, lol

[–]AstuteBlackManRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not know, I think the hundred billion dollar anti-aging beauty industry shows that a lot women already know their beauty fades with age. Is it not a common trope for women to worry about ageing?

Yes. But they delude themselves regardless. You have fat people all the time that say that ignore the fact they're fat. You have porn addicts that act like they're not addicted to porn. Similar concept.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men can be more confident in their ability to get a partner later in life than women... if they choose to do so

[–]MakeMoneyNotWar5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

C'mon there's lots of posts on here about how the wall isn't real, the wall is a myth, the wall is a RP revenge fantasy, how I know all these hot 30's women who have no problem dating, etc.

All I did was use the search bar and have the following posts on this subreddit the last few months:

"My thoughts about 'the wall'" - "I also don't think a good looking 40-year old woman isn't attractive at all, she can still date good looking 40 year old men, same happens with a good-looking 50 year old woman and so on."

""The Wall" does not exist and is merely a desperate form of cope/revenge fantasy"

"The Wall is a Class Issue"

"CMV: "The Wall" "AF/BB" and other phrases TRP throws around are just revenge wish fulfilment on their part."

"“The Wall” is mostly psychological"

So on and on and on...so let's not kid ourselves here.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Who is denying this does not happen? And why does it matter if this is true?

/u/electra_cute Hmm...

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think what you are seeing is the Wall being presented as "women over 33 are washed up hags who will never get love" instead of this science graph. When BP reacts to the Wall they are reacting to the revenge fantasy of women being forced into degrading circumstances due to age.

[–]AnonoForReasons 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don’t think RP says “degrading.” The wall just puts women at a large disadvantage.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Eh, YMMV. Some gals have no problem in later years...and as the OP stated, it is about perceived age more than actual age. So if she looks young and fit she will do fine.

[–]couldbemage5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There have been a bunch of topics over the last few months with titles like "the wall doesn't exist" or "the wall is just as real for men"

[–]maljo240 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

"Advertisers' preference" graph has nothing to do with the "wall".

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oi vey,

It was about the "number of women advertising looking for males of age X" and about "the number of men advertising looking for females of age X" as a proxy for the amount of men/women seeking each age.

When there are 100 adverts seeking males aged 20, but 10,000 seeking females aged 20, that indicates females aged 20 are in high demand relative to same age males.

When there are 100 adverts seeking females aged 40, but 10,000 seeking males aged 40, that indicates males aged 40 are in high demand relative to same age females.

Thats what the graph measures. As such it's measuring a proxy for "advantage or disadvantage in the SMP."

I did my own home rolled version of this to a while back using marriage, census and "attraction by age" data.

The result is here, and it showed the same thing.

https://i.imgur.com/VGjWIMi.png

The criticism at the time was "very cool but this isn't scientific". So when I tripped across a scientific study that did a similar calculation scientifically I posted it here.

It WAS very much intended to measure this, as the title of the article makes clear...

Impact of market value on human mate choice decisions

This was (one of) their measures of market value.

From their conclusion...

We have shown that, for humans, an individual's market value as a mating partner is determined in a relatively straightforward way by age-specific factors that influence fitness (fecundity in the case of females and survivorship and income in the case of males). In addition, we were able to show that market value in turn directly determines advertisers' willingness to impose strong demands in their mate search criteria: individuals who have a low market value are less demanding. Aside from the trivial demonstration that evolutionary principles govern human behaviour as much as they do that of other animals, the most important implication of these findings is the extent to which individuals fine-tune their mate search strategies in response to the frequency dependent effects imposed by the market. It seems likely that this degree of flexibility may explain many crosscultural differences in behaviour.

You really ought to read the study first.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Your meta-analysis ignores postmodernist trends happening in our current society, the ability of women to generate their own resources, the ability of women to obtain their own status, the current rise of gender ideologies, the current war against predetermined gender roles among other things. Therefore making your meta-analysis invalid for its lack of information.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Your meta-analysis ignores postmodernist trends happening in our current society, the ability of women to generate their own resources, the ability of women to obtain their own status, the current rise of gender ideologies, the current war against predetermined gender roles among other things.

They make next to no difference. When they measure these things, the more gender equal the society, the more status women have, the more women desire these things in men. It doesn't reduce their instinctive preferences, it gives them more freedom to pursue those things.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Buss/publication/233345027_AUTHORS'_RESPONSE_Toward_an_Integrative_Understanding_of_Evoked_and_Transmitted_Culture_The_Importance_of_Specialized_Psychological_Design/links/0912f5100137862343000000/AUTHORS-RESPONSE-Toward-an-Integrative-Understanding-of-Evoked-and-Transmitted-Culture-The-Importance-of-Specialized-Psychological-Design.pdf#page=4

Therefore making your meta-analysis invalid for its lack of information.

This meta analysis remains valid. Partly because its orthoganal to the items you mentioned... and partly because the changes in culture don't have the effect you are supposing they have in any case.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They make next to no difference.

I don't think so.

When they measure these things, the more gender equal the society, the more status women have, the more women desire these things in men.

You're mistaking egalitarianism for post-modernism, a huge mistake. For example the 80s were pretty egalitarian, but traditional social norms were still highly promoted and maintained by society, media and government, things such as casual sex and interracial relationships were still demonized. In post-modernism there are little to no social stigmas, yes women love "high status males" but current social estructures, technology, economics and pressures makes easy for them to being socially and economically validated by all kinds of men, high-status men included. Making settling for just one single high status male kinda obsolete.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Buss/publication/233345027_AUTHORS'_RESPONSE_Toward_an_Integrative_Understanding_of_Evoked_and_Transmitted_Culture_The_Importance_of_Specialized_Psychological_Design/links/0912f5100137862343000000/AUTHORS-RESPONSE-Toward-an-Integrative-Understanding-of-Evoked-and-Transmitted-Culture-The-Importance-of-Specialized-Psychological-Design.pdf#page=4

From page 78: Women’s sexual interests are dependent on exter- nal factors, such as relationship context (short term vs. long term) and partner quality, as well an impor- tant internal cue, her cyclical fertility status. Con- sidered as a whole, the patterning of women’s sexual interests and preferences cannot be understood as a set of contingent responses that have been shaped by broad, domain-general learning processes. Rather, the contingent nature of these interests is best explained by invoking the concept of evolved psychological ar- chitecture containing design features dedicated to solving specific adaptive problems in the domain of mating. This area of research provides an example in which variable contemporaneous inputs produce changes in psychological and behavioral outputs. Evolutionary psychologists also expect responses to environmental factors that may developmentally calibrate or condi- tion psychological adaptations, producing more stable differences between individuals occupying different ecologies (Buss, 1991; Tooby & Cosmides, 1990). In short, this conceptual framework points to the possibil- ity of specialized, problem-specific adaptations under- lying patterns of within-group similarity and be- tween-group difference—what scientists often refer to as culture.

The authors basically claim that both external and psychological play a role on women's sexual interests.

Even then, I find this study to be outdated since it never mentions the transformation of modern human relationships and sexual behavior thanks to technology, mainly smartphones and the internet which created a turning point in the sexual market as I stated before. Smartphones are for human relationships what gunpowder was for human warfare.

Also the most recent sources are from the early 2000s (almost 2 decades ago) that obviously don't include an analysis of the current sexual market paradigm. Ex:

  • (Buss & Schmitt, 1993; Greiling & Buss, 2000).
  • (Buss, 1991; Tooby & Cosmides, 1990)
  • (Johnston, Hagel, Franklin, Fink, & Grammer, 2001; Penton-Voak et al., 1999; Penton-Voak & Perrett, 2000)

Ignoring the vast majority of social factors at making a social analysis is as flawed as ignoring evolution at making a biological analysis.

[–]speltspelt0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

do not mistake degree of interest from men for realized value for women. men are often very interested in pairings that are a very bad deal for women.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Well, it’s up to the woman to work out what’s best for her.

As males age they increasingly get their preferences more, as they are more desirable men. That’s why age difference at first marriage is 3, but 5 by 2nd marriage and 10 by 2rd marriage. That’s average.

As guys gain status, they use that to open up gaps... as it’s increasingly worth it for the woman to go over that gap to get a man as “high status” as him.

[–]speltspelt2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

but that has nothing to do with what age is best to marry for women to get their preferences met. you want to look at the women who had the best outcomes and what they did. they're not fighting over multiply divorced men and, largely, they weren't getting married at 22.

Later marrying demographics (like women with PhDs) are now much more likely to be married later in life than earlier-marrying one. They have much higher personal incomes. Higher status. Fewer kids, but technology is likely to solve that in the near future for the women who actually want kids.

I recall my grandmother married around 18 and had 3 marriages - the age gap shrunk with each one (started at 10, ended up same-age when she married at over 50 for the last time).

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

but that has nothing to do with what age is best to marry for women to get their preferences met. you want to look at the women who had the best outcomes and what they did. they're not fighting over multiply divorced men and, largely, they weren't getting married at 22.

No, the girls who have the best outcomes are the extremely good looking girls. They marry older high status men.

To the point that the "Billionaire with the model wife" is cliche.

Women's preferences are high status men. Men's are for young women.

As men age and gain status, this is reflected in the fact that their wives get younger on the 2nd and 3rd goes round.

Later marrying demographics (like women with PhDs) are now much more likely to be married later in life than earlier-marrying one.

Yeah, I think thats right.

They have much higher personal incomes. Higher status. Fewer kids, but technology is likely to solve that in the near future for the women who actually want kids.

Yes, all of that is probably right too.

I'm not sure where you are going with this.

I recall my grandmother married around 18 and had 3 marriages - the age gap shrunk with each one (started at 10, ended up same-age when she married at over 50 for the last time).

Thats actually very rare. As the statistics I just showed you should make you understand. If the average at 3rd marriage is a 10 year age gap.... and your granny age-matched... there must have been another guy out there who married a girl 20 years his junior to balance that out.

For every 3rd marriage like your grannies.... there is another where the age gap is 20 years down.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The really good looking ones who marry older men with status instead of hot men 1-2 years older (what women prefer according to your OP) with status settled by definition. I have a cousin who is a professional model and she dates and will probably marry her longtime boyfriend who is her age and comes from an insanely rich family. If you can't get a rich hot man in his physical prime you didn't do as good as you could.

[–]speltspelt1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Billionaire with the model wife is cliche, but not the norm. The ones who play to the cliche tend to be the really tacky ones that a woman wouldn't gain a lot of status from being married to anyway. Trump types, though Trump's hardly a billionaire. Few people are actually jealous of Melania's marriage.

https://www.ft.com/content/13cf5fc2-e9cb-11e4-ae1c-00144feab7de

Multiple marriages is a successful male strategy if he keeps having kids in them, sure, but it's successful for the guy, not the wives. Evolutionarily you want to be the mother of that guy, not the partner, and for the most part you'd be better off in absolute terms being monogamous Amish than either.

The distribution of ages for remarriages is much wider for both sexes. More men remarry significantly up in age as well as down, more women remarry significantly down in age as well as up.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The distribution of ages for remarriages is much wider for both sexes. More men remarry significantly up in age as well as down, more women remarry significantly down in age as well as up.

No, that distribution I gave you was "female younger". Not "age gap either way". For every woman marrying up 10 years on 3rd marriage, there must be a guy marrying down 30 years to balance out to that average.

Billionaire with the model wife is cliche, but not the norm.

It is the norm for the most attractive women.

I can't find the study right now... but they measured it.

The high status men, are married to the best looking wives.... and of course that means the best looking wives are married to the high status men.

It was a really high correlation.

[–]Pastelitomaracucho0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Spinsters on suicide watch

[–]Hungry_AFYour friendly neighborhood misandrist3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really.

[–]xx-Rain_Maker-xx0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just to add to the discussion. A similar plot was presented by OKcupid in one of their studies

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks. That’s a really interesting set of data. I’ve bookmarked it for going over in depth.

[–]AutoModeratorMarried to Littleknownfacts[M] -1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Attention!

  • You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.

  • For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.

  • If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.

  • OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Anecdotal, so I'll put it here. But here's my experience as a 38 year old post-wall hag

Some jackass started a rumor that M and I were separated (while he was out of state for a few weeks, and I was going out with girl friends to keep myself busy). I was shellshocked at how many guys started aggressively pursuing me, and definitively not just for sex ... These guys were offering to buy me things, take me out and spend serious amounts of cash. On two occasions, I went to pay my tab only to find out that some guy had offered to cover it for me (I declined)

Am I as pretty as I was at 23? Hell no, I'm not deluding myself. I'm sure there are guys out there who think I'm too old for them. But that brief, unwitting foray into the SMP/RMP taught me that dating at my age isn't the challenge that RP thinks it should be

So while the wall exists, I don't think it's a wall so much as a gradual decline. EDIT: And this exact experience is why women collectively roll our eyes at the concept of The Wall as TRP describes it

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They are doing all of that for sex. Next level chump moves. Where did you get the idea it was for anything more?

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Is there a tl;dr of this, it is 6am and I cannot focus my eyes before coffee

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Tl;dr some guys can’t stop popping boners at the idea they will become supermen while women become old crones.

[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

TL;DR .... Science has confirmed the wall exists for women the way RP has always described it.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“TL;DR... Suck it, grannies.”

FTFY

[–]ThisIsJustATr1buteHas what plants crave2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

More men begged to be my bf or husband after I was 27 or so than before.

[–]_Tumbleweed-Gym Thot0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

So the wall for men is 42ish? And at 44 men and women have the same market value?

Or am I reading it wrong?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Who cares? Just live your life as you see fit. So what if other people age badly or not? What practical difference does that make to you? Know in your heart of heart that you did what is best for YOU.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

© TheRedArchive 2024. All rights reserved.
created by /u/dream-hunter