TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

64

CMVWomen expect the business market to bend to the same rules as the SMP. (self.PurplePillDebate)

submitted by hurupu

From what I've seen many women expect senior men in their workplace come up to them and offer mentorship and support to rise up the ranks of the company.

But the man has to guess that she's interested in being mentored by him specifically and for that particular position, otherwise he's a creep and OMIGOSH! HR! I am feeling uncomfortable and harassed!

https://getwerkin.com/blog/building-a-culture-of-non-toxic-masculinity

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/careers/management/six-ways-men-can-better-mentor-women-in-the-workplace/article33805175/

Most women are not interested in work conditions improving for all workers WHILE making the business more productive, but in the environment being comfortable to them.


[–]-TheGreasyPole-Pissed Off that Reddit Admins killed my old account[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link

As the title of this thread makes an affirmative claim I'm flairing it as a CMV. Therefore, all top level answers must attempt to change OP's view.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Those expectations are crumbling

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/world/europe/metoo-backlash-gender-equality-davos-men.html

Another Side of #MeToo: Male Managers Fearful of Mentoring Women

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

psst. SMV and the economic market ´place work by the same rules.that is why they both have "market place" in their name.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Looking smoking hot doesn't move the engines of ships full of goods tho.

It only gets you so far.

[–]the_calibre_cat18 points19 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Looking smoking hot doesn't move the engines of ships full of goods tho.

Yeah, the actual work is done by ugly people who get paid bullshit, looking smoking hot gets you management positions.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I said follow the same rules, not that they have the same consequences.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

They follow the same rules right up until sales drop and the company either hires the woman or man for the job (instead of a nice pair of tits) or it goes tits-up itself.

[–]sophii13 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why is this there assumption that whenever a slightly attractive woman has any kind of good job, she only has that job for her looks?

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Because it’s frequently true

[–]insultin_crayon1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Any proof of that you can provide? Your own bias doesn’t count.

[–]sophii12 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh no, don’t hurt his feeling. Men’s opinions on reddit are the only real facts in this world.

Also, we are know females are only good for sucking dick. Even if they are performing life saving surgery, designing computer chips, or writing bestselling novels, they only got their sucking dick. FACT.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Again, same rules, not same consequences.

The basis of everyone's behavior, is the things they want.

And certain things are more prevalent on a certain environment because otherwise it is not capable of compete.

The direction of a company may want to hire a beautiful woman, but if she is not a capable woman, the entire company suffers.

Same rules. Different consequences.

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

No redistribution in the SMP though (not even the old rules of monogamy and sex within a committed relationship or marriage, or enforcement of marriage as a contract), while there is plenty of economic redistribution of men’s tax money in women’s favor.

The SMP is not just a free market, it is a market with tax money subsidised freedom from consequences for women.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Well, it is not a perfect free market, but the smp is mostly free from women's perspective it is completely free.

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

It’s subsidised for women. Kind of like if men were to get a free escort companion if they couldn’t find a woman they found attractive.

Think about it. They get funded by tax payer so that they can get the genes from men who won’t commit to them, optimizing their reprodictive strategy far beyond means. For the next 18 years.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Like how the government is subsidized by the people. You have no option of "not paying for it" if the government does not approves of it.

But we live in a free market right?

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Like how the government is subsidized by the people. You have no option of "not paying for it" if the government does not approves of it.

Can you reformulate this point in a more intelligible manner?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Governments are sustained by people. The people have to sustain the government or they will suffer.

Women are sustained by men. Men have to sustain the women or they will suffer.

Basically, Women follow the same rules in a market as governments.

Governments have the power to have almost the monopoly over its citizens lives, Women have the power to have almost the monopoly over men's resources.

Does that make more sense?

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Governments are sustained by people. The people have to sustain the government or they will suffer. Women are sustained by men. Men have to sustain the women or they will suffer. Basically, Women follow the same rules in a market as governments. Governments have the power to have almost the monopoly over its citizens lives,

Yeah, a closely related concept is the government's monopoly on violence. Is that what you're referring to?

Women have the power to have almost the monopoly over men's resources.

I think women sub-consciously vote in favor of sexual free markets and beyond (subsidised freedom from consequences), while they vote in favor of economic regulation and redistribution.

Men, conversely, sub-consciusly tend to favor economic free-markets to a larger extent with less control, redistribution and regulation. Also, conversely, they have tended historically, and probably sub-consciously still to a large extent, to favor regulation, redistribution and control of the sexual market. Both sexes want to control their primary resource for themselves (production for men, reproduction for women), while seizing control of the other sex's primary resource. The solution of course, is a minimal government society, where all markets, sexual and economic, are reasonably free.

Does that make more sense?

Yes, a lot more sense. I think you just needed to flesh it out. I take it you are not really in disagreement with my points then?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think women sub-consciously vote in favor of sexual free markets and beyond (subsidised freedom from consequences), while they vote in favor of economic regulation and redistribution.

Everyone votes to their own perceived benefit.

Men, conversely, sub-consciusly tend to favor economic free-markets to a larger extent with less control, redistribution and regulation.

Men perceive the free market to be in their interests, as it is ,because men are more prone to investing and long term thinking.

Also, conversely, they have tended historically, and probably sub-consciously still to a large extent, to favor regulation, redistribution and control of the sexual market.

If this was true once upon a time, it is not anymore. Most men I am aware would want a free market to everything. I think you are mistaking men as a group for religion. Religious are the only group really I think more than half want to control others behaviors.

Religion is the cause, not that they are men. boys and non religious men take little to no interest in how others behave if this do not affects them. Only religious(and some ideologs) think like that.

Both sexes want to control their primary resource for themselves (production for men, reproduction for women), while seizing control of the other sex's primary resource. The solution of course, is a minimal government society, where all markets, sexual and economic, are reasonably free.

Not probable to happen, but yes, this would be the best solution.

I take it you are not really in disagreement with my points then?

I am agreeing with you.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.22 points23 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

In my industry older men as mentors to younger female subordinates is fairly common. But I mean they like it. Men like to mentor and teach. I’ve never seen a situation wherein such women are like upset some man won’t mentor them, the mentorships just kinda fall into place when the women get hired.

[–]Scatrereal feminist13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree but..Idk if "men" like to mentor and teach. MENTORS like to mentor and teach.

[–]NiceGuyNumber42 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think mentoring is closer to fathering than it is to mothering.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could be, just something I noticed, probably does take a specific type of personality.

[–]Paranoidexboyfriend7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I’ve noticed that the older lawyers like to hire decent to hot looking women to forge “mentor ship” relationships with. No small amount of those they ended up having sex. Most of the rest the young lawyers I’m friends with complain their mentor is kinda creepy but really helps their career.

None of the male attorneys I’m friends with have mentors, though I do know of some men in the profession who do

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that isn’t my experience. Both young men and young women in my field tend to end up with some amount of mentoring and while they are scandals the women aren’t significantly sleeping with those men.

[–]Paranoidexboyfriend1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I just assumed you were a lawyer like I am from the tag. Maybe it’s more common knowledge among the men?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I am, I’m in litigation. It’s still not my experience that the young male lawyers don’t get mentoring (they do in my field) or that it’s somehow commonplace the younger female lawyers are sleeping with their mentors.

I see/hear of a lot more vendors/paralegals/“assistants” doing that, not the female mentee lawyers.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I see/hear of a lot more vendors/paralegals/“assistants” doing that

And then they marry into the royal family of England?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Huh

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

https://suits.fandom.com/wiki/Rachel_Zane

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh I don’t watch that show people say it’s good. I didn’t realize that chick was an actress first either.

[–]SeasonedRP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is pretty much what I have observed. And though it wasn't common when I started out, it is considerably less common now. It's a foolish move career-wise for a senior male lawyer.

[–]concacanca3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mostly agree. You don't get to be senior, in a lot of cases, without developing that side of your game.

I'm not super senior but it is definitely expected that I'll mentor junior staff. It's come up in reviews that some of the women on the team want more of my time in that capacity.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Idk I find men enjoy mentoring talented men more. I have several. Like 7+ maybe more depending what counts. They may have young women they work with but. It's different.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

what exactly was a link from a consultant being offered to show? they make their money by asserting theres a problem in the workplace then offerign their services to fix it

the second link is an editorial by a man telling men who they could better mentor women and why he thinks they should. where does it address the subject of your post? where does it evince female expectations?

did you just google "men women mentoring" and pick two links?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I've been on both sides of mentor/mentee with men professionally, and it's always been an organically occurring thing without expectation. Men and women who are drawn to the role(s) find themselves there.

If anything I'd say forcing it is sketchy, not an absence of it the company culture. Smashing people together at random with an expectation to make each other better when they have no desire to seems pretty risky.

[–]Salty-Bastard1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why do I keep reading that as mentor/manatee relationship and think of the current smp.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol I do the same thing with mentee, I blame Jimmy Buffet concerts and all the people with parrot and manatee tattoos. I hadn't tied it to the smv but now: lol!

Really do think these things are best when they just happen and forcing it is iffy territory. Companies can create a larger group collaborative culture and then maybe more mentors and people not too scared to ask questions or share what they know pairing off will happen on its own. Browbeating them into doing what "women" want or deserve (?) is absurd since not all women even welcome this dynamic.

[–]Salty-Bastard1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree, being self employed all my life lends to a different dynamic. I've had a couple of "mentors" who took the time to teach me their knowledge and open up a conduit to their clients but i earned their trust first and they liked me as a human. It happened all organically like you mentioned and the difference from a "corporate" setting is that they didn't have to do that, they wanted to.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The dynamic you mention is a really good point! I haven't worked "corporate" since....2002? Maybe 2003? At the time it was very much about flexing what you knew, and who you knew wasn't broadcast until the "higher up" was sure you weren't a waste of time. Closed door meetings and the like, things that would likely not fly today even though they weren't untoward or unprofessional in content. Mere association was just a major thing in the politics of the time. It would shake down into the "people who have their shit together" and the "dipshits we only give tasks they won't hurt themselves with" groups based on who fought to get into the first group, which is where the mentoring was. It was just exhausting to get there.

The non corporate setting voluntary formation of these relationships is much less uptight and frankly more fulfilling. Everyone involved thinks the other person is worth a damn by virtue of reaching out and being available, because they don't have to. I ditched corporate life and by extension my degree for a job with this environment and was much happier.

[–]shonenhikada2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

A woman once made a company employing only women as a way to showing girl power. it went under within months. Too much backstabbing, gossips and drama.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I remember that article...

found it

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1168182/Catfights-handbags-tears-toilets-When-producer-launched-women-TV-company-thought-shed-kissed-goodbye-conflict-.html

Also

Women-only network appoints male chairman

Typical matriarchal behavior. Appoint a man to take final decisions and be responsible for all the crap while they get to enjoy mostly the good parts.

[–]SabirahNova4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I think your perception is skewed by your workplace, you said you’re a programmer it’s a male dominated field with a lot of unattractive men who resent women. The handful of women who work in these environments are at a disadvantage because no one values them as a person or coworker, people are either mad they’re there, assume they’re incompetent and filling a diversity quota or want to get in their pants. Of course they’re hoping senior level people will take notice so their careers can have some upward mobility because so many people dislike them and they just want to be successful. That’s my take.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

you said you’re a programmer it’s a male dominated field with a lot of unattractive men who resent women.

LOL. If you hadn't written this I'd have taken your reply seriously. Yeah there are a few ugly guys at work, but all of them are married or in an LTR. Where I work now there are basically 3 guys who aren't in a relationship (I'm one of them).

Most of the other guys look at least decent and have a number of hobbies outside computers (one guy skis, another one owns & flies a single seat copter, a bunch play tennis, one guy plays the guitar in a band, another one plays the drums in a different band, etc.).

Yeah they're all nerdy and that made most of them late bloomers who married late, but it's less about lack of respect for women and more about women lacking respect for most men who aren't the "group alpha".

[–]ascended-cel2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

The handful of women who work in these environments are at a disadvantage

WTF? They are women working in programming, FFS. They have a massive advantage because they have what everyone doesn't, a vagina. Companies will hire and promote you literally just because of that.

[–]yaseedog will hunt-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I'd say people assuming you were hired/promoted just on the basis of your genitals is a pretty hefty disadvantage

[–]ascended-cel1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Sure but the advantage of getting hired because of your genitals far outweighs that.

[–]yaseedog will hunt-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

what if you weren't, though? do you seriously think most women programmers were hired just because vagina?

[–]ascended-cel2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

what if you weren't, though?

Sucks for her, I guess. But she can also leverage her vagina to get a better job in an instant, so I don't have too much sympathy.

do you seriously think most women programmers were hired just because vagina?

Yes

[–]yaseedog will hunt-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

ok what stats and/or observations can you provide that support that belief?

[–]ascended-cel1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

a) Watching the few female students in my program getting the most desirable internships, despite not being at the top of the class or having any other exceptional CS skills

b) Experience in the workplace with female colleagues vs. male ones.

It's no surprise that a place like google is getting sued for this nonsense.

[–]yaseedog will hunt0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

remember that you're trying to substantiate the idea that women are being hired "literally just because" they're women. Were those female students actively shitty programmers with no other desirable skills or qualities? do you know what the pool of other applicants looked like?

also what was your experience in the workplace? were you privy to hiring decision processes where managers actually took on a bunch of unskilled women solely because they were women?

[–]ascended-cel1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The applicant pool included everyone in the program. They weren't shitty programmers, they were average, but an average male programmer wouldn't have gotten the same job.

I don't know about their hiring decision processes. I can only assume about that based on the quality of the people they hired.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer7 points8 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

How do you know this.

[–]HawanjaAncient Deadly Ninja Baby2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He doesn't.

I doubt this person has ever worked in a place that doesn't require a paper hat.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Because I have women colleagues at work?

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer-1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Because you met women at work you now think that this applies to every woman. Do you see an issue with this?

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No I just think it applies to a statistically significant percentage of women to the point where even if they are not the majority it has a deleterious effect on workplace balance and productivity.

No, not all women, just enough of them to make things shit for everybody.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why do you think it applies to a significant percentage of women? This seems like an odd view to hold.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

About 1/4 (guesstimate) of the women who worked at my mom's workplace (she took me with her when school was out) were pretty fond of spinning shit office politics just to make other women's (and some men's) lives harder.

That was early to mid 90s and generally the higher up the foodchain a woman was the more likely she'd be "an AWALT".
Working class women on the assembly line & welding were less likely to act out like that.

Where I worked it wasn't that bad but there were also fewer women in the company (programming job).

To be fair all the women playing shit-tier politics either quit or were thrown out on their asses eventually.

[–]3vilg0dAbsolution1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most commonly, woman who pays more attention on makeup have less productivity. They are the ones that gets fired.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Where did you get 1/4 from?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

OP seems to be pulling things out of their ass and creating conspiracies.

[–]meomeowmeoww 1 points [recovered]  (9 children) | Copy Link

are you sure you are not a neet?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

No I'm worse than a neet. I'm an overweight programmer.

[–]TheSuperStink 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Ah, overweight. I really don't listen to you all much.

The top indicator of lack of discipline and self-control.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey I limit my food intake but we can't all lift our therapists in the shower 24/7.

EDIT: Most people start off not trusting me at first because I'm overweight, not all that good looking and a bit autistic.
But they generally trust me once they see my work. At least those who don't dismiss me based on looks in the first 15 seconds.

[–]nevomintoarcePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm also a programmer and some of the good ones at my work are fatties.

[–]meomeowmeoww 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

But the man has to guess

why is he guessing? if he's not making it clear its his own fault.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

if he's not making it clear its his own fault.

yeah it's never women's fault. men are always to blame

[–]atlantic68Purple Shill3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Fat guys are yes

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sorry, not sorry that seeing my belly is making you feel uncomfortable.

[–]atlantic68Purple Shill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Its digusting and feminine

[–]passepar2t 1 points [recovered]  (54 children) | Copy Link

If you, man or woman, need mentoring to advance, you're not very good at your job. CMV. UNLESS, by "mentoring," you mean "nepotism," in which case, yeah, "mentoring" is important.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It’s very common in my industry. You don’t walk right out of law school into being a great litigator. Which is not to say people are running around applying for mentorships or its formal like that, it just sort of happens.

[–]passepar2t 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

What does a typical mentor - protege relationship look like in a law firm?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You work on cases together, strategize and delegate. It’s a joint effort where they are in charge but take the time to teach you why things need to be done and then ideally provide you the resources in which to do them. I mean there’s still a lot of “throw them in the deep end” when you’re young but it’s great having an older more experienced person to bounce ideas off of and to help guide you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (40 children) | Copy Link

You mean when you were placed at your job you never any kind of mentoring program and expected employees to figure it out as they go?

You either work in a hard science field or there must be some really nice chaos in your workplace.

By mentoring I mostly mean sharing tips and advice about what works (but especially what doesn't) not teaching others how to do their job.

Still even hard science companies nowadays at least have an onboarding process where you are helped along with learning the tools specific to that place.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat6 points7 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

You mean when you were placed at your job you never any kind of mentoring program and expected employees to figure it out as they go?

Yes....? That's literally how every job I've had has been? New hires were given handbooks and/or onboarding (which is not "mentoring," it's all the new hires in a room with some form of food or drink and a PowerPoint), and then you got to work. If you wanted "mentoring" you had to be a grownup and ask a senior coworker to lunch.

Bear in mind, I am a Filthy Humanities, but I'm frankly convinced "mentorship" is a lie and a scam.

[–]Texastentialismshe's got a tattoo and two pet snakes5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Hahaha same. This whole world of mentoring is completely foreign to me. I don't know what people mean when they talk about it.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, as a software engineer it's basically like teaching someone or showing them the ropes individually in the hopes of helping then accellerate their level. It's well known the wisdom of our industry is in the experienced people's minds, not in your college degree.

[–]Texastentialismshe's got a tattoo and two pet snakes2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that's just not a dynamic I've ever experienced in my line of work. People train each other and help each other out when they need it but it's not like this personal one-on-one thing where you're specifically invested in the other person's success.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

where you're specifically invested in the other person's success.

Well you won't get hit on your review if one of your mentees fucks up.

It would have to happen consistently. And I work in programming too.

While it's expected you know your algorithms and syntax, nobody expects someone fresh out of college, or coming from a different industry to know every weird ass peculiarity of an API, compiler or CPU architecture.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean perhaps that's just because you like that person so you hope the best for them, really, and just want to amplify them. Get them to your level one day

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

If you wanted "mentoring" you had to be a grownup and ask a senior coworker to lunch.

Which is what men tend to do. And women tend not to do.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

I'm a woman.

And I think looking for "mentoring" is a sign of ineptitude nine times out of ten.

[–]EsauTheRed1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

How so? No one knows and is good at everything, do you work in a field where once you've completed your education you are done learning? I don't, so it stands that I can gain by mentoring

Maybe you just feel vulnerability in the mentor-mentee relationship?

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat2 points3 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Most people aren't hired for a field, they're hired for a job, i.e. to perform a task. If you don't already know how to do the task, and the job isn't an apprenticeship or similar, sniffing around for other people who will lead you along is a sign that you shouldn't have been hired for it.

I will admit to a bias, because everyone I've ever worked with who was big into mentor-mentee was not only at least a little inept, but actively hostile to new ideas.

That said, a lot of what's written about as mentorship is actually networking, which i have no beef with, but be honest, they're not your fucking sensei, it's a social relationship.

[–]EsauTheRed1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

You probably don't work in creative, white collar work or in research then. The tasks I do change every day, and I may be expected to work on something I've never seen or touched before

In the sort of work I do, everyone eventually specializes, to be a rude cunt when someone comes to you asking for your expertise is just hurting the company. Check your ego at the door

Yes there are people who will fail, and no I don't think the mentor-mentee relationship needs to be formalized

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I am a researcher, but that part of my professional life is a solo operation. But no, most of the work I do in a formal sense isn't creative, although it is white-collar. People have jobs they're hired for, and when you go around needing your hand held, it's a sign you can't move fast or figure things out.

There may also be a cultural component--I work pretty much exclusively with Europeans.

[–]EsauTheRed1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you're a researcher then your job is creative

Unless you are just a lab tech, which is what it sounds like

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It depends on your field. Being mentored in mine is not at all a sign of ineptitude, it’s normal. I suppose part of that has to do with school in my field teaching you jackshit as to how to actually practice. I would imagine in fields where experience and trial and error is key like that mentoring is more common.

[–]Texastentialismshe's got a tattoo and two pet snakes0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Is asking for help with an unfamiliar task the same as seeking mentorship though? This is a genuine question. I get help from colleagues and coworkers all the time, or collaborate with them, bounce ideas off of them etc. Which colleague I go to will depend on what the question is and who specializes in the thing I'm seeking help with. But I was always under the impression that a mentor was one person who takes a vested interest in your success in the job/field and helps you grow and advance in your career in addition to just helping you with daily tasks at your current job.

[–]EsauTheRed1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You have a formal idea of a mentor-mentee relationship, I don't necessarily see it as a formal relationship or something that is even one way. A mentor-mentee relationship comes into being when someone really outranks you, or has much more experience than you do in a field or activity, I could be mentored in for example public speaking while I could mentor someone in tech and approaching problems.

When you help someone with a task you will notice whether they are just totally clueless or not as clued up as they should be, and if they just need your assistance so they can move on to what is most important for them, the former is an opportunity for mentorship.

[–]3vilg0dAbsolution0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mentoring in modern society is relationship between senior and junior in which junior comes to him for any problem in his work. If you ask everybody it just disturbs productivity of everybody and you could get poor evaluation. Mentorship is most common in doctors, lawyers etc. Mostly industries that deals with dynamic problems. It also helps in networking which is very important.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

they're not your fucking sensei

Otaku-shaming :P J/K but it says a lot when you assume we're all anime obsessed dweebs.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol, I don't think anyone's "all anime-obsessed dweebs"--it's just that the whole mentor/mentee thing struck me as a similar kind of relationship. Or maybe apprentice/master craftsman. Networking, though, it's just social.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Bear in mind, I am a Filthy Humanities, but I'm frankly convinced "mentorship" is a lie and a scam.

Oh, yeah, that makes sense. You're expected to know your field in academia.

In the filthy capitalist workplaces your lot seek to destroy, though, there's per-firm ways of doing things that require SOME mentorship, so usually we get some. Depends on the field though - a construction worker would likely be able to jump from one shop to the next without mentorship, while a programmer will almost always need some time to recalibrate their knowledge to the new firm's tech stack (i.e. moving from Ruby to C#, GitHub to BitBucket, SQL to Mongo, etc - the fundamentals are the same, but the actual day to day is different).

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Meh, I've worked filthy capitalist gigs (just the kind that aren't in STEM is what I mean) and while there is a little onboarding, it's downright weird to ask for a lot of handholding, and can even be viewed as being suspiciously needy.

Something like upper-level sales, for instance--asking for a mentor, even one who works further along the pipeline, can look a bit shady as much as anything.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol for sure, but that's, again, a per field difference. You learn sales at the low levels... by the time you're at the upper levels, you're competing with the other sales reps.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

i.e. moving from Ruby to C#, GitHub to BitBucket, SQL to Mongo, etc - the fundamentals are the same, but the actual day to day is different

GitHub to BitBucket is accurate, but the rest is a lot more specialized, closer to moving from JIRA to BugZilla or TestTrack.
Or moving from Classic ASP to .NET core.
Or even worse shit like moving from ANT to some god-forsaken clone of BobX :))

The general knowledge applies just until a call to Transaction.Finalize(a) fucks up half the company's DB because nobody told you to always call Transaction.FizzBuzz(a) right before.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like this supports the idea of mentorship in programming positions

[–]BlessedRainsAfrica 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

You mean when you were placed at your job you never any kind of mentoring program and expected employees to figure it out as they go?

That's my current engineering job. No buddy/mentoring program, just throw me in the deep end and see if I can swim. If I can't they throw me out, if I learn to swim then I stay.

I'm still standing, yeah yeah yeah

[–]EsauTheRed0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Is that the case in your mind, or their actual policy?

[–]BlessedRainsAfrica 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a standard policy for medium sized companies. Of course no company in writing says it like I did lol

Only big companies with their graduate programs can hold your hand and really mentor you. Otherwise it's get it done or fuck off.

[–]EsauTheRed-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah okay, it's just your ego then

Personally I'm a bit more senior (in experience, not time spent in the company), I'm a workaholic and work weekends, I'll freely share and mentor those who I recognize as having less experience and knowledge as me and I expect the same from any man in the workplace

But it isn't formalized in any way

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I worked I.T. consulting for a crazy person once. Turned out to be just like that, the boss was nuts and he'd have me go right into some server system that I'd never seen before. Luckily I am a.) motherfucking good at what I do and b.) a functioning alcoholic, so dealing with him and doing the work was, while not easy, possible.

Balls in is the best way to learn, though.

[–]EsauTheRed1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, balls in is the best way to learn, I'm 4 years into my career and make work my life. I'm not saying a mentor-mentee relationship has to be something formalized but tbh that is the only way women will probably get them. You can be both teacher and student to the same person, it's all about your ego and self perception. If you work in the corporate work on collaborative projects, you should kill your ego.

[–]crackrocksteady7buying gf2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You mean when you were placed at your job you never any kind of mentoring program and expected employees to figure it out as they go?

by mentoring do you mean training?

[–]passepar2t 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, I never had a mentoring "program." I had "observation skills" and "hey steve, how do we do X?" And then steve explains how we do x in a few sentences and off we go to the races. No one had to "take me under their wing" and become my long-term sponsor, advisor or caregiver. When I read these "mentorship" articles, they sound like they're written by children with all their arms and legs cut off.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

IDK, while I didn't bother him with too many questions (mostly about time tracking, bug tracking & meeting tools) I did have a designated mentor when I started work at both places where I worked before.

[–]Scatrereal feminist-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

When you get your first job, you'll understand

[–]couldbemage2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It's kinda weird how unaware people can be. Most jobs don't have any sort of formal or informal mentoring. Typically you just have a boss.

[–]Scatrereal feminist0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

What jobs have no form of informal mentoring?

[–]couldbemage4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Unless your definition of mentoring is so loose as to be completely useless, that would be most jobs.

[–]Scatrereal feminist1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Well describe what you mean then

[–]couldbemage1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I can describe what it's not: it's not your boss telling you what to do. It's not on the job training days. It's not coworkers giving you tips.

I think mentorship is totally absent from from the sorts of jobs that have physical results. I'm aware they exist in jobs that are talking or idea based jobs.

[–]Scatrereal feminist0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What is it, Pai Mei giving you life advice as you crunch numbers in excel?

It doesn't exist

[–]couldbemage0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So mentors don't exist. Gotcha.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most jobs don't. That is unless you count job training as mentoring.

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely not so easily reducible like you're making it out to be. In my experience, women treat work like work. I don't know if that reflects everyone's experience but literally there is just very little difference in my field on how women are treated and expect to be treated vs men. We all have this very equal opportunity, fair, merit based perspective.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Generally speaking, I don't agree. Most of the women I've worked with have been actual, three dimensional people and workers.

It is curious, however, that do-nothing bloggers have nothing better to do than bitch about that situation for women, though.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most of the women I've worked with have been actual, three dimensional people

I never said they didn't have any depth of character. There's more than one way to be a nuisance for other people and it doesn't necessarily involve being incompetent.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know you didn't. I added that, to imply that preachy moralizing bloggers who bitch about the temperature of the office being sexist or how men existing and working in the same building as women is reinforcing the patriarchy possess finger-deep character.

Generally, though, that's people who work for the New York Times or The Atlantic, not the women I've actually worked with, who have generally been competent, understanding, and willing to put up with the same bullshit that the men do.

[–]Scatrereal feminist1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

From what I've seen many women expect senior men in their workplace come up to them and offer mentorship

I'd like you to point out 1 woman in the world who expects that

But the man has to guess that she's interested in being mentored by him specifically and for that particular position, otherwise he's a creep and OMIGOSH! HR! I am feeling uncomfortable and harassed!

Idk what you're babbling about

Most women are not interested in work conditions improving for all workers WHILE making the business more productive, but in the environment being comfortable to them.

Is this supposed to be a conclusion of some sort?

[–]AutoModeratorMarried to Littleknownfacts[M] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Attention!

  • You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.

  • For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.

  • If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.

  • OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[–]passepar2t2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

https://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2013/03/dont_hate_her_because_shes_suc.html

[–]Salty-Bastard0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Always enjoyed his writing style. Funny you posted this one, my buddy works with SS and tells me stories about what a horrible human being she really is.

[–]SirNemesismary cucked joseph0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

In my industry (software engineering), shy men will still go out of their comfort zone and ask for help / mentorship / friendly interaction if they want it. Shy women generally just won't. I'll find out weeks or months after they join my team that they were just too shy to ask for what they want. Meanwhile all this time I'd been thinking they just wanted to be left alone to do their work.

I wouldn't say they "expect" mentorship to be handed to them though. They just don't know how to ask for it and are grateful when it finally happens.

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What kind of mentorship? I mean don't we learn through code reviews? Like if I make a mistake someone will tell me anyway and I learn from it. It is way faster to learn it that way and also observing what the senior does and try implement/improve that no? That is what I do in fact. I don't really ask for mentorship. I just code my best ability, try coming up with ways to improve then ask the senior guy if my solution is feasible. And he will tell me such and such. Sometimes I don't ask, then he code review and point out what can be improved.

[–]despisedlove2Reality Pill Tradcon RP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why whine?

Just don't hire women unless forced to. Of those you have, don't mentor them. Try your best to transfer them to a female manager. Never have one on one meetings with them. If you have to meet, meet in a public place. Always have CCTV cameras running at work.

The Pence rule is the most sensible advice you can have.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But the man has to guess that she's interested in being mentored by him specifically and for that particular position, otherwise he's a creep and OMIGOSH! HR! I am feeling uncomfortable and harassed!

that's actually been my experience in the workplace though? i've had older men offering me mentorship since college and am now moving into a new field just because i casually asked a few questions to the right person lol

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

© TheRedArchive 2024. All rights reserved.
created by /u/dream-hunter