TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

63

I can't speak for everyone here, but as a red pilled man, I am sure I can speak for quite a LOT of other red pilled men at least. Here is my theory:

First and foremost, we used to BE just like these so called male feminists. Perhaps we didn't call ourselves feminist per-say, but you can bet your bottom dollar feminism influenced and made us complete nice guy pussies (especially at delicate times of our lives, like high school, etc.)

I remember a time in high school when literally my friends were trying to push me to go and just TALK to a girl in the hallway by her locker. There was a girl in our group (whom ironically is now a big feminist, I've seen her facebook). I told them "Whats the point of approaching her? She'll probably just think since I'm a guy all I want is one thing and that I'm perverted anyway. Why bother?" I don't remember the EXACT word for word exchange, but that is the gist. Not helping my opinion at the time, the girl responded "Guys ARE perverted...". I am sure she was innocently joking at the time, and ironically I had seen her date the abusive asshole types. But I didn't take it that way. It only reaffirmed my opinion of myself: I was an oppressor of women and had no business approaching them, even in high school.

I was feminist minded. I didn't question what feminism was telling me about myself. I can tell you this: I know a lot of other men have shared my experience. I was basically a male feminist. I was too nice. I figured, maybe I can show women how much different I am from other guys and maybe they will see not ALL men are bad.

Nowadays male feminists remind me of my old self, and it disgusts me. I missed out on so much girls in high school throwing themselves at me because I didn't "want to offend them with my sexuality".

This is the thinking behind disliking male feminists, among other reasons like simply not agreeing with their theories about us being predators towards women. And one more thing:

Throwing other men under the bus who didn't necessarily do anything wrong, just for the chance at pussy is really fucking pathetic. They're lucky they aren't doing that shit in the ghetto, they'd be fucked.


[–]bonusfruit72 points73 points  (89 children) | Copy Link

I can't figure out why boys are expected to absorb an upbringing of mandatory aggressive anti male education, wherein they are taught that male sexuality is oppressive, rapacious, objectifying and harmful, and then shrug and pursue girls anyway, fully in control of their self worth with no insecurities or anxiety about it. How is this not supposed to leave boys fucked up and unable to approach girls normally

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How is this not supposed to leave boys fucked up and unable to approach girls normally

Unless they're naturally social and outgoing, it doesn't.

[–]gasparddelanuit2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How is this not supposed to leave boys fucked up and unable to approach girls normally Unless they're naturally social and outgoing, it doesn't.

Even they will be affected, but perhaps not as adversely as those who take it more to heart.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia14 points15 points  (85 children) | Copy Link

You've got to consider that male feminists usually don't suffer from TeRPism.

They can read stuff like "shaming men for expressing feelings is toxic masculinity" or "the idea that eating vegetables is gay is toxic masculinity" without getting triggered beyond recognition. They are able to understand nuance, adjectives and that this isn't just an attack on all men.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS23 points24 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This might come as a surprise to you, but not every guy who didn't suffer through a feminist indoctrination during his formative years turns into a child rapist as a consequence.

[–]oodsigma6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Did they say anything even* remotely related to what you just said?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS14 points15 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, but BiggerDthanYou by his own admission as an 18 year old had sex with drunken 12 year olds, yet constantly lectures the redpill camp from a position of imagined moral superiority because apparently him having found God feminism absolves him of any past wrongdoings (or he feels obligated to be quadrupleplusgoodthinkful as some twisted penance).

I just like to remind him that he has no leg to stand on - because either (a) he's a troll who makes shit up in order to rile people up (which I hope is the case), and as such can be safely dismissed, or (b) his admission was actually genuine, and in that case he has extremely twisted ideas of what men do under normal circumstance if they aren't forcefed feminist ideology. I mean, on some level I can relate - if I had raped children as a pastime activity in the past, I too would try to convince myself that it's perfectly normal to do so for men without feminism (and that therefore I am not just some sociopathic outlier) if I wanted to be able to live with myself.

What's interesting is that no bluepiller has called him out on this so far, at least not that I have seen - which makes their whole commitment against rape culture and all that stuff highly dubious if you ask me.

[–]Salty-Bastard8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

no bluepiller has called him out

The next consent thread should be quite interesting.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think he is a troll more so than has a holly thy thou complex. As if you look at his uh "arguments" every single one comes off as "I know everything peon". Every one of his posts are condensing. And of course no BPer is going to call him out.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You've got to consider that male feminists usually don't suffer from TeRPism.

Probably. They do suffer from something else though.

They can read stuff like "shaming men for expressing feelings is toxic masculinity" or "the idea that eating vegetables is gay is toxic masculinity" without getting triggered beyond recognition. They are able to understand nuance, adjectives and that this isn't just an attack on all men.

They suffer from strawmanitis. I've never seen a man or woman got "triggered" by any of the statements above. I've seen a lot of people criticize the term itself as offensive since it implies (to them) that masculinity is inherently toxic. I've seen people become offended by notions that things they enjoy doing (competition, roasting one's friends) and toxic. I've also seen people become offended by the suggestion that there's something toxic about valuing stoicism and toughness.

Additionally, they suffer from blindness to double standards. A male feminist can say the following:

"Men should not be shamed for being weak, expressing emotions, asking for help or crying"

and then in the next sentence accuse someone of being a crybaby who suffers from fragile masculinity and doesn't recognize his privilege when he does exactly that.

Of course all those things are online. If you've ever met a vocal male feminist in real life they're usually very sad men desperately looking for validation from women, and often seem to harbor an intense hatred of men who embody traits they themselves do not - such as confidence, emotional stability, and the ability to attract women. I'm not of course saying this applies to all male feminists - but whenever I've met one it's just a variation of the classic "Nice guy".

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've seen a lot of people criticize the term itself as offensive since it implies (to them) that masculinity is inherently toxic.

Its not really offensive more so it went from a term that had a simple to the point meaning to one that is meaningless as every part of masculinity is now toxic with how the term is used. Mind you toxic masculinity originally meant male gender roles where toxic to men. While RPers would disagree with that as they are traditionalists, more men would have less of a problem with such a meaning. But when the term means behavior that men do that is harmful you can make anything masculine to be out to be toxic masculinity. Feminism is after all nothing but mental gymnastics.

I'm not of course saying this applies to all male feminists

You might as well say it does. There's a reason why female feminists don't date male feminists and have a disdain for them.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ12 points13 points  (75 children) | Copy Link

"shaming men for expressing feelings is toxic masculinity"

The problem with this one is that the only feelings you are able to express are female feelings.

"the idea that eating vegetables is gay is toxic masculinity"

Never seen that one.

But this is just the washed up menslib message right here, I've been raised by anti-masculinist women, it does involve them telling you that it's ok to be more feminine. However it also involves them telling you all men are perverted pigs and that being sexual is not ok, not nice, not wanted. That men should wait for women to come to them because the contrary is an annoyance and never works. That men have to work hard to understand and please women, while having no sense of self interest. And women are perfect as they are, ofc, unless they're making compromise to you, then they're obviously deviant, us, men, should seek women who treat us like slaves.

How do you think a 8 year old boy is going to digest that? How do you think he's going to feel at 14 when he'll realize he's exactly what the women in his life told him to feel disgusted about?

Really you don't seem to understand the topic, maybe you've been raised by kind women who didn't try to make you a mangina, you can't get it.

Toxic masculinity is also a poor choice of word. While anything suggesting femininity isn't perfect is going to be instantly censured, you take all the bad behaviour men can have and stick it to masculinity. It's just disingenuous.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman2 points3 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

However it also involves them telling you all men are perverted pigs and that being sexual is not ok, not nice, not wanted. That men should wait for women to come to them because the contrary is an annoyance and never works.

Warning labels are calibrated for the reckless, and the things we teach children are calibrated towards the children who misbehave. It is why we teach young children to stop at a red light, instead of teaching them to look around and cross if there is no car anywhere near us. We know that some young children will be idiots and cross red lights even when there are cars around. The same thing is true when considering sexual advances. Sure, there are instances where approaching someone is okay or even wanted, but there are many instances where it is just annoying. Just like most small children can't estimate whether there is enough time to cross the road before the next car comes, most 8 year old boys (or even 14 year old boys, and girls as well) probably can't estimate which level of sexuality is appropriate.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

but there are many instances where it is just annoying.

And then we can debate whether we care that women are annoyed. Because, I'm sorry I'm not gonna die if I annoy a woman for approaching her and she has to say no. She's mildly annoyed and would like men to stop doing that, but men would like to stop being alone too. Somehow people decided women's comfort was more important. So that's why we get rules to not flirt at work despite most of our direct ancestors found their partners at work.

And all this is specifically true if you realize they're trying to push men into not approaching women but never pushing women into approaching men. No man in his right mind is going to be ok with being told "if no woman approaches you then you will be alone all your life"

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Workplace policies and codes of conduct are in place to create an atmosphere where everyone can feel comfortable and be productive. A man can go meet women somewhere else. He can still be comfortable at his job even if his private life sucks. A woman who is frequently approached by men at her job will be uncomfortable at her job which will make her less productive. Encouraging women to approach men would only shift this problem to the male side, because then the men would have to deal with unwanted advances.

[–]orcscorper..||. |.|.| ...|| .|.|| |..||2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Please. Women are going to be less productive because they get approached by men? I've worked with a lot of women, and most of them couldn't be less productive if they tried. They are more productive when they call in sick, because they aren't in the way of the men who do the actual work.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Really? Is it so alien to you that someone who gets interrupted by others or someone who has to think of a way to politely reject others will be less productive than someone who can mind their own business?

[–]orcscorper..||. |.|.| ...|| .|.|| |..||1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, not what I said. I said most women are lazy, in my experience. They spend more than half the day chit-chatting anyways, so what's another thirty seconds gonna hurt?

I don't endorse putting the moves on coworkers during work hours; I just don't think it would be interrupting all that much actual work.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The fact that you think that the women in your office are lazy doesn't make "most women" lazy. You probably only notice the ones who are chit-chatting, because the other ones are quietly working and don't draw your attention towards them. Also, I don't think that all men are perfect examples of productivity either. I know plenty of men who will let anything and everything distract them. They might not chit-chat as much (so you don't notice), but they will visit non-work related websites, play video games/browser games/mobile games etc. And they might spend some time thinking about how they're going to ask their coworker out.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

A man can go meet women somewhere else.

Or he can meet her where he's most of his day.

What else are you going to tell me? We should separate boys from girls in school so they get more productive? Despite it's one of the best way for people to meet each other and to form couples. School is to socialize, otherwise everyone would be home schooled. We aren't machine, we don't work purely for working, we need contact, we need our work to be human, to be centred around humans, to be about humans.

But nah, let's just have shitload of STEM workers who work 10h a way, and let's tell them that to have a relationship they should dedicate the remaining time of their day finding the right place, context and moment to talk to the girls who will reject them 99% of the time.

Encouraging women to approach men would only shift this problem to the male side, because then the men would have to deal with unwanted advances.

It'll balance the load on both men and women, it'll desensitises men to their role of initiators, it'll probably increase the success rate of approaches and decrease the failures. However that is completely unnatural to men and women and I don't see it happening. I just think it's nonsensical to keep pushing the idea that men are responsible for everything and then trying to tell them not to move a toe to make their life better because a woman might be uncomfortable.

In any case, remember that only a minority of women are annoyed by a minority of very aggressive men. Majority of the attempts are either polite and can be rejected easily, or are unspoken rejections. There's no real problem about approaches.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying we should separate people, I'm saying there's a time and a place.

I didn't make this "rule" that men have to approach, in fact, I think it would be better for everyone if women approached men as well, in the right social settings.

Sure, it's the agressive approaches that are the biggest problem, but in a setting where all approaches are considered acceptable, there will be more agressive approaches as well. If a woman is made uncomfortable at a bar, she can leave this situation and/or call the staff. The guy who approached her is likely someone she will never see again, so she can also reject him in an agressive manner. At her job, she needs to be able to call HR, because she will probably have to work with that person again.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why do we care that she will have to see that person again? The man who get rejected and treated like a creep will have to work with everyone knowing about his failure, yet he still did it, yet he still works here. That woman who get uncomfortable because of this is just a sad weakling, we care about this only if it is persistent.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You're overestimating the power of women. It is very likely that at least some of his male colleagues will side with him, especially if they don't like the way she rejected him.The manosphere claims that there are people who think women can do no wrong, but there are actually men who think that everything women do is wrong. If she didn't reject him harshly enough, they will say that she was leading him on, and if she rejects him in a more agressive manner, they will say she overreacted. There will also be people who will claim that she was acting in a way that encouraged his agressive approach (e.g. by wearing make-up or being polite).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Warning labels are calibrated for the reckless

They are also there to inform. If I was allergic to say peanuts I damn well want a warning label on food that is processed where peanuts are. As that way I won't die or what have you.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, of course, but you probably also wouldn't buy food items that obviously contain peanuts, even if there wasn't a warning label. Like, you wouldn't need a peanut warning label on peanut butter.

[–]circlhat0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

But it's done with bad faith because it only applies to men, although most have gender neutral language, a good bit doesn't. I was told as a man specifically that simply wanting sex made me a pervert and I should love her mind, and want more than sex. This is a huge violation of personal rights. I can want women just for sex and still not treat them as objects.

Many women just want sex, and go for it, but I was taught wait, never mind..., no one ever teaches women not to treat men as sex objects. Women sexuality is seen as pure and I got lucky, when I sleep with women now I get called a master manipulator.

> Warning labels are calibrated for the reckless, and the things we teach children are calibrated towards the children who misbehave

You aren't even listing, He wasn't misbehaving this is general education for men, you want sex, you are a evil person, case closed.

Now we can have wants called indulgences, in which we pay women though giving attention, dinners, and learning to love her mind, the funny thing is most girls don't give two shit about just wanting sex

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You aren't even listing, He wasn't misbehaving this is general education for men, you want sex, you are a evil person, case closed.

I'm not saying that he was misbehaving, I'm saying that his parents probably took the possibility into account when teaching him. I was generally a well-behaved child who didn't bully other children in kindergarten, but the kindergarten teachers still told all of us that it is wrong to bully people, and they even gave examples of reasons that a bully might have (e.g. glasses). Bullying a kid because they wore glasses had never even ocurred to me, but I was still told not to bully kids for wearing glasses. In the same way, it might have never ocurred to OP to see a woman as anything less than a person, but his parents still wanted to be on the safe side and told him to respect women before he had the chance to do anything wrong.

[–]circlhat2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is disingenuous though, I was told not to let anyone bully me or bully anyone this is mutual, I was never taught that women should respect me, only that I respect women.

Women are not taught to respect men, but taught not to let a man disrespect them. See the double standard now?

Most kids are hedonistic, but don't want to hurt anyone. My friends were people who played video games and sports, women friends were those into fashion, and social issues.

However My only reason for association was their looks , the real me was I just wanted those women for sex, if she like video games or sports I could of been her friend, so it wasn't that I only wanted the gender for sex, just those individuals.

I was taught If I just wanted sex, it meant I was a womanizer and objectifying women and I should get to know their mind.

So I had to use my ego, I felt like shit because deep down I was only interested in sex, but thought I would show respect by getting to know them. Turns out I got friend zone and the guys who said I just want to fuck, fucked.

So teaching men to respect women and not see them as objects is very dehumanizing, because it's 100 sided and wanting just sex is fine because it's normal and both genders do it.

[–]esiemualBBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women are taught not to be disrespectful towards people. Men are taught not to be disrespectful towards people. However, some men don't consider women people, so all men are additionally told not to be disrespectful towards women. Some women get the impression that they aren't as worthy of respect as men because of the way they are treated, so all women are told not to let men be disrespectful towards them. There is only a "double standard" because of the long tradition of not seeing women as people.

Generally, at least when I was a kid, everyone was always told to remember that other people are in fact people, because teenagers are still egotistical hedonists and often seem to forget this. Part of the reason why boys and girls are treated differently when it comes to sex is partially because girls can get pregnant. If the boy forgets that he is having sex with a real person who has a real life that will be impacted negatively by an unwanted pregnancy, he might remove the condom. A girl will not, because she is the one who will have to deal with an unwanted pregnancy. Another part is the widely held problematic view that boys always want sex and enjoy no strings attached sex.

However, it is not dehumanizing to teach people to see other people as humans.

[–]circlhat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are taught not to be disrespectful towards people.

I said women are not taught to respect men, no one is taught not to be disrespectful, men are taught to respect which is earned

some men don't consider women people

I was called one of those men since I just want to have sex, this is a vague term,and untrue. Maybe if you eat women like a serial killer you don't consider them women, but even disrespecting, raping or killing a women doesn't mean you don't consider women people.

so all men are additionally told not to be disrespectful towards women.

I already gave you the run down on my experience, why are you fighting so hard for this , it was wrong what happen to me and it doesn't happen to women, I got over it, but I still disagree with it.

because teenagers are still egotistical hedonists and often seem to forget this

As long as they don't disrespect, but respect is earned, also what is consider respectful or disrespectful is individual specific, some women just want a guy to fuck them like a piece of meat.

If the boy forgets that he is having sex with a real person who has a real life that will be impacted negatively by an unwanted pregnancy, he might remove the condom. A girl will no

Ok, we are done, your just lying now

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-wrong-of-me-to-poke-holes-in-my-boyfriend-s-condoms-since-he-doesnt-want-to-get-me-pregnant-but-I-want-kids

Women poke holes in condoms, all the time ,

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷6 points7 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

TIL feelings have genders

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

I'm not going to write everytime something along the lines of "feelings that are more commonly seen, expected and accepted from women".

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷-3 points-2 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

Like what? Name a few.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ8 points9 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

Like frustration and sadness are expected to be expressed with crying from women when men might express it with anger and violence.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

You realize men have tear ducts too right? Mother nature gave men tear ducts to not be used? Pretty sure women are capable of getting angry too. You're kinda proving the point -- men and women have the same emotions but how we express them is largely cultural, not biological.

BTW research shows boy babies cry more than girls. Can confirm.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ9 points10 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I really don't get what comment you're answering to.

My point is that the whole "men need to show their emotions more" is only restricted to men crying and showing their emotions in a typical feminine way. Men being angry, rebellious, violent, ect... are still considered as aggressor by the feminist narrative, instead of considering those as scream for help as well.

In addition the emotions and issues men have cannot be originating from women, men are always at fault for everything and need to reframe any issue they have with them being toxic to themselves.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My point is that the whole "men need to show their emotions more" is only restricted to men crying and showing their emotions in a typical feminine way. Men being angry, rebellious, violent, ect... are still considered as aggressor by the feminist narrative, instead of considering those as scream for help as well.

exactly

[–]MamaTR0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

But crying isn’t destructive and violence is inherently destructive. It’s not that one is “feminine” and therefor “ok” it’s that violence is inherently not ok.

[–]gasparddelanuit3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You realize men have tear ducts too right? Mother nature gave men tear ducts to not be used? Pretty sure women are capable of getting angry too. You're kinda proving the point -- men and women have the same emotions but how we express them is largely cultural, not biological. BTW research shows boy babies cry more than girls. Can confirm.

No, both biology and culture are involved. It is not exclusively one or the other. The relationship is symbiotic and biology precedes culture in chronology, so culture is partially a reflection of biology.

Also, I believe there is some research out there which shows that men are biologically less prone to shedding tears.

Bottom line, men and women are biologically different.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Bottom line, men and women are biologically different.

I knew someone was going to strawman me with this.

[–]PieceBringerPurple Swag2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you think the reason men cry less is cultural? I just had a female friend now texting me she has been crying in class all day because of a dream she had. The concept is so alien to me I can't even process it properly, I don't think any amount of socialization would make me cry for that reason.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Partially cultural, partially personality (I never cry in front of people and I’m female).

Crying is not a biologically female act. We’re talking propensity to allow oneself to cry, in what situations and for what reasons, which is definitely impacted by cultural norms.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

men and women have the same emotions but how we express them is largely cultural, not biological.

BTW research shows boy babies cry more than girls.

I love how you contradicted yourself here. Also you do realize men's and women's brains are biologically different right? As it stands to say their emotions will also differ biologically as well. See male babies crying more than female ones.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

That men and women have different brain composition doesn’t change the fact that crying is not a biologically female act.

You only think it’s a contradiction because you don’t understand nature vs nurture.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia5 points6 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

"the idea that eating vegetables is gay is toxic masculinity"

Never seen that one.

It's commonly mentioned as one way in which the patriarchy harms men. Even the APA article cited a study that showed that western men that strongly adhere to traditional notions of masculinity are unwilling to eat vegetables.

Really you don't seem to understand the topic, maybe you've been raised by kind women who didn't try to make you a mangina, you can't get it.

Well this doesn't actually relate to this topic, because anti-masculinist people aren't the ones talking about toxic masculinity. Anti-masculinist are saying that talking about toxic masculinity isn't enough because all masculinity is harmful.

You are conflating two different kinds of feminists. Your argument is like "liberal feminists are harmful because man-hating radical feminists are harmful".

Toxic masculinity is also a poor choice of word. While anything suggesting femininity isn't perfect is going to be instantly censured, you take all the bad behaviour men can have and stick it to masculinity. It's just disingenuous.

We aren't sticking those things to masculinity. Society already does that and we are merely pointing out that it is harmful that those things are linked to masculinity.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ6 points7 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

It's commonly mentioned as one way in which the patriarchy harms men. Even the APA article cited a study that showed that western men that strongly adhere to traditional notions of masculinity are unwilling to eat vegetables.

Yeah I believe you, but I've never experienced it. "if you want to be tall you need to eat soup" is a popular advice. Might be cultural tho (I'm not american)

Well this doesn't actually relate to this topic, because anti-masculinist people aren't the ones talking about toxic masculinity. Anti-masculinist are saying that talking about toxic masculinity isn't enough because all masculinity is harmful.

I use the term anti-masculinist because feminism and other terms such as toxic-masculinity weren't popular 20 years ago. Anti-masculinist is what all these things look like to me from my perspective, I'm not using it as a strong defined word but rather just to suggest what sides people are with. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding

You are conflating two different kinds of feminists. Your argument is like "liberal feminists are harmful because man-hating radical feminists are harmful".

You can have as much kinds of feminists as you want, young boys are receiving one unified overall message.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I believe you, but I've never experienced it. "if you want to be tall you need to eat soup" is a popular advice. Might be cultural tho (I'm not american)

This is just not a part of the construction of masculinity in your culture.

There are lots of gender norms like real men hunt, vegans aren't real men or meat is manly in the US. As the APA states men in the US are shamed away from eating vegetables and there's a significant gender difference in the willingness to eat vegetables, which doesn't exist in cultures without this aspect of toxic masculinity.

French men eat significantly more fruits and vegetables than American men and there's barely any gender difference in the amount they eat or the willingness to eat them.

This also ties in with my "we aren't attacking male nature, but societal expectations that are placed upon them" argument, because there's nothing biological that prevents men from eating or enjoying vegetables and because those cultural standards and expectations don't even exist in all cultures.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

As the APA states men in the US are shamed away from eating vegetables and there's a significant gender difference in the willingness to eat vegetables, which doesn't exist in cultures without this aspect of toxic masculinity.

Because the APA is now totally creditable on such matters that aren't even part of mainstream. The fact you posted meme pictures and not actual things promoted really does says it all.

This also ties in with my "we aren't attacking male nature, but societal expectations that are placed upon them" argument

You mean your bullshit argument where apparently YOU get to decide what is and isn't attacking men? Who exactly made you the authority figure on that? Oh wait no one. You should check your ego.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

You mean your bullshit argument where apparently YOU get to decide what is and isn't attacking men? Who exactly made you the authority figure on that?

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx

But something is amiss for men as well. Men commit 90 percent of homicides in the United States and represent 77 percent of homicide victims. They’re the demographic group most at risk of being victimized by violent crime. They are 3.5 times more likely than women to die by suicide, and their life expectancy is 4.9 years shorter than women’s. Boys are far more likely to be diagnosed with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder than girls, and they face harsher punishments in school—especially boys of color.

APA’s new Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Boys and Men strive to recognize and address these problems in boys and men while remaining sensitive to the field’s androcentric past. Thirteen years in the making, they draw on more than 40 years of research showing that traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful and that socializing boys to suppress their emotions causes damage that echoes both inwardly and outwardly.

But just as this old psychology left out women and people of color and conformed to gender-role stereotypes, it also failed to take men’s gendered experiences into account. Once psychologists began studying the experiences of women through a gender lens, it became increasingly clear that the study of men needed the same gender-aware approach, says Levant.

The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful. Men socialized in this way are less likely to engage in healthy behaviors. For example, a 2011 study led by Kristen Springer, PhD, of Rutgers University, found that men with the strongest beliefs about masculinity were only half as likely as men with more moderate masculine beliefs to get preventive health care.

And in 2007, researchers led by James Mahalik, PhD, of Boston College, found that the more men conformed to masculine norms, the more likely they were to consider as normal risky health behaviors such as heavy drinking, using tobacco and avoiding vegetables, and to engage in these risky behaviors themselves

This masculine reluctance toward self-care extends to psychological help. Research led by Omar Yousaf, PhD, found that men who bought into traditional notions of masculinity were more negative about seeking mental health services than those with more flexible gender attitudes

“Because of the way many men have been brought up—to be self-sufficient and able to take care of themselves—any sense that things aren’t OK needs to be kept secret,” Rabinowitz says. “Part of what happens is men who keep things to themselves look outward and see that no one else is sharing any of the conflicts that they feel inside. That makes them feel isolated. They think they’re alone. They think they’re weak. They think they’re not OK. They don’t realize that other men are also harboring private thoughts and private emotions and private conflicts.”

How does this attack men?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I like how you didn't quote them where they said traditional masculinity is bad. Go figure. And how exactly does this refute you being the one that gets to decide what is and isn't an attack? As you made it clear in the past that you get to decide such things, no other men gets to decide that just you.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I like how you didn't quote them where they said traditional masculinity is bad. Go figure.

Stop trolling. See this as a warning.

It's right there in the middle:

Thirteen years in the making, they draw on more than 40 years of research showing that traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful and that socializing boys to suppress their emotions causes damage that echoes both inwardly and outwardly.

Stop accusing me of not doing things right after I did them.

And how exactly does this refute you being the one that gets to decide what is and isn't an attack?

I'm asking you to explain it to me.

So stop trolling and answer me: how does their article attack men?

[–]circlhat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

> “Because of the way many men have been brought up—to be self-sufficient and able to take care of themselves—any sense that things aren’t OK needs to be kept secret,

False men ask for help, beg for money, however a successful man doesn't put his problems on others, hey perhaps I should love better money management, than say beg my neighbors

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

All these things aren't even inherently wrong: Growing things is easy, hunting isn't. Meat allows for muscle growth and overall good biochemestry of the body, including high levels of testosterone. These things aren't directly saying do not eat veggies, but rather to eat meat? I guess this is part of a greater circlejerk, but these examples seems meh to me.

How prevalent is this? Isn't it just senseless gatekeeping that people will ignore just like the women saying real women don't get C-sections?

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Growing things is easy, hunting isn't.

This might be, but does it justify things like "if your boyfriend doesn't know how to hunt you've got a girlfriend"?

Don't you think that constantly hearing things like that could influence the dietary choices of men?

Meat allows for muscle growth and overall good biochemestry of the body, including high levels of testosterone.

Vegans have higher levels of testosterone on average.

Isn't it just senseless gatekeeping that people will ignore just like the women saying real women don't get C-sections?

This is a cultural gender norm that evidently harms men so they obviously do not just ignore it.

As the APA article states men that strongly adhere to traditional notions of American masculinity tend to be unwilling to eat vegetables (and there are even some cases of scurvy among men that would have the money to buy an orange per week), but this isn't the case for French men that strongly identify as masculine.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't you think that constantly hearing things like that could influence the dietary choices of men?

If you keep telling this to a kid, sure.

Vegans have higher levels of testosterone on average.

If they make sure to eat the right amount of substitute for meat and fatty fish, sure. I don't think most meat eaters take care of this in the USA tho. Do american christian get the usage of eating fish every friday? This habit kinda staid strong in french culture and most day care for kids and school will make sure to put fish on the plate at least on friday.

[–]Discoberry10 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

are unwilling to eat vegetables.

Except potatoes

[–]circlhat0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I was told strong men eat Broccoli, I always liked it , so it wasn't a issue.

> You are conflating two different kinds of feminists.

No one addresses radical, they address academic or the APA , this is a reframe , stop straw man.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

No one addresses radical, they address academic or the APA , this is a reframe , stop straw man.

How is the APA anti-men?

[–]circlhat0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Teaching male privilege and masculinity is wrong

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can you quote where they said that masculinity is inherently wrong and not that some aspects of traditional masculinity are harmful to men?

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx

But something is amiss for men as well. Men commit 90 percent of homicides in the United States and represent 77 percent of homicide victims. They’re the demographic group most at risk of being victimized by violent crime. They are 3.5 times more likely than women to die by suicide, and their life expectancy is 4.9 years shorter than women’s. Boys are far more likely to be diagnosed with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder than girls, and they face harsher punishments in school—especially boys of color.

APA’s new Guidelines for Psychological Practice With Boys and Men strive to recognize and address these problems in boys and men while remaining sensitive to the field’s androcentric past. Thirteen years in the making, they draw on more than 40 years of research showing that traditional masculinity is psychologically harmful and that socializing boys to suppress their emotions causes damage that echoes both inwardly and outwardly.

But just as this old psychology left out women and people of color and conformed to gender-role stereotypes, it also failed to take men’s gendered experiences into account. Once psychologists began studying the experiences of women through a gender lens, it became increasingly clear that the study of men needed the same gender-aware approach, says Levant.

The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful. Men socialized in this way are less likely to engage in healthy behaviors. For example, a 2011 study led by Kristen Springer, PhD, of Rutgers University, found that men with the strongest beliefs about masculinity were only half as likely as men with more moderate masculine beliefs to get preventive health care.

And in 2007, researchers led by James Mahalik, PhD, of Boston College, found that the more men conformed to masculine norms, the more likely they were to consider as normal risky health behaviors such as heavy drinking, using tobacco and avoiding vegetables, and to engage in these risky behaviors themselves

This masculine reluctance toward self-care extends to psychological help. Research led by Omar Yousaf, PhD, found that men who bought into traditional notions of masculinity were more negative about seeking mental health services than those with more flexible gender attitudes

“Because of the way many men have been brought up—to be self-sufficient and able to take care of themselves—any sense that things aren’t OK needs to be kept secret,” Rabinowitz says. “Part of what happens is men who keep things to themselves look outward and see that no one else is sharing any of the conflicts that they feel inside. That makes them feel isolated. They think they’re alone. They think they’re weak. They think they’re not OK. They don’t realize that other men are also harboring private thoughts and private emotions and private conflicts.”

How is this an attack on men?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No they suffer from BPerism. And they don't understand nuance, adjectives and that this isn't just an attack on all men. But instead think its ideas they must subscribe to as if they don't they are committing sins against the church of feminism.

[–]circlhat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The only reason you were a nice guy is because men are psychopaths

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man47 points48 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

no, it's because most of us have met self-described "male feminists" and every single one of them is just another creepy dude trying to use shitty NiceGuy strategy. none of them really give a fuck about feminism or women, they're all just trying to weasel their into girls' panties by saying what they think girls want to hear.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not only that but they will absolutely try stabbing you in the back like a weasel as well

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

ohh absolutely. those guys will fuck over their closest male friends that they've known for years if they even get a slight whiff of pussy.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is another reason. And yeah, it's dumb, and obviously doesn't work in the long run.

[–]dicklord_airplane2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Youre projecting pretty hard there, buddy.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

no i weasel my way into girls panties by being a misogynistic asshole, so you're pretty much deadass wrong on that one buddy.

[–]dicklord_airplane1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I mean you seem to assume that everyone is "weaseling" their way into women's pants. We aren't. You're projecting your cynical attitude on to other people who are not actually cynical.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

lol just keep tipping that fedora bro

[–]dicklord_airplane1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The irony.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Stop projecting.

Just because you do everything with the sole intention of getting laid this doesn't mean that the same is true for others.

Normal male feminists are simply liberal men that are genuinely interested in / supportive of progressive ideas.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Stop projecting.

Just because you do everything with the sole intention of getting laid this doesn't mean that the same is true for others.

Coming from YOU of all people that's hilarious.

Normal male feminists are simply liberal men that are genuinely interested in / supportive of progressive ideas.

Would you consider yourself to be a "normal male feminist"?

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know like 2 guys who would probably call themselves feminist that I can't find myself to dislike (they were my friends in high school) but other than that it really does seem like a ploy for pussy. (Not saying doing things for pussy is wrong, hell, I do it, but at least I'm honest.) I don't believe most male feminists really think men are any more privileged than women are, unless they've drank too much Kool-aid.

I am sure there are exceptions though.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Normal male feminists are simply liberal men that are genuinely interested in / supportive of progressive ideas.

i live in a large, urban, blue city on the east coast that is chock full of liberals. i've met dozens and dozens of "male feminists" - the guys who go to the womens' marches and wear pussy hats and hold up signs and constantly virtue signal on social media and in real life about feminist bullshit.

every. single. one. of those self-described "male feminists" is the worst kind of creepy NiceGuy. every one of them is just trying to bullshit and "be different than all of those other assholes" to get laid. they're the kind of guys who always insist on giving girls hugs and holding it just a little too long. they're the kind of guys who insist on making sure drunk girls make it home and then try to bullshit their way into the apartment.

and every one of them is the kind of creepy fucker who says things like "Normal male feminists are simply liberal men that are genuinely interested in / supportive of progressive ideas."

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mmm I don't think so. I've met men who are feminists by the things they believe in. Just regular blue pill dudes who believe in the gender pay gap, the 25% bogus rape statistic and those sort of things. But those are different from the ones that went around telling people they are feminists. Those guys were weasels 75% of the time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't think you should be talking.

[–]circlhat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

only because of being taught too, they are abused men

[–]Zippo-Cat-4 points-3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

no, it's because most of us have met self-described "male feminists" and every single one of them is just another creepy dude trying to use shitty NiceGuy strategy.

Nice Guys don't exist.

none of them really give a fuck about feminism or women, they're all just trying to weasel their into girls' panties by saying what they think girls want to hear.

Generally speaking when you have to resort to conspiracy theories to support your position, it's a wrong position.

[–]donkeydodoI think, therefore I am - No pill, only human8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Go check r/niceguys - they have a decent collection of those that you claim to be non-existant

[–]Zippo-Cat-2 points-1 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No, they have a "decent collection" of screencaps of men getting angry when rejected.

Oh, and did you hear about /r/blackpeopletwitter? It proves all black people are crazy rogues. You know, since subreddits apparently are a proof of anything.

[–]donkeydodoI think, therefore I am - No pill, only human4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Said men is a result of a feminist agenda. They're indoctrinated by the false ideas that if you're nice and 'give women what they want' by doing everything in your power as a man to not displease/make a woman angry, you'll be rewarded by being granted access to said woman's punani. These men are the definition of "nice guys"; they're not nice, but they've tried to adapt to the concept that feminism has presented as a working substitute for how feminists believe men used to be. A nice guy is a man, who is trying to deny his own natural (sexual) instincts but can't do that due to the fact that it's deeply encoded into our DNA, so he tries to embrace his natural instincts by listening to women, which doesn't work at all.

Yea, I've heard about r/BlackPeopleTwitter. You're making a logical fallacy; I never said that all men are 'nice guys'. My point is that they exist, just as it exists crazy black people as well - doesn't mean all black people are crazy.

[–]Zippo-Cat0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Said men is a result of a feminist agenda. They're indoctrinated by the false ideas that if you're nice and 'give women what they want' by doing everything in your power as a man to not displease/make a woman angry, you'll be rewarded by being granted access to said woman's punani.

Uh, no. No one was "indoctrinated" by anyone. Men were always projecting what THEY want from women into what WOMEN want from men. That's why nice guys exist. They genuinely believe that, since they like nice women, women must automatically like nice men.

The ideas of chivalry existed in various forms for thousands of years. Unless feminists have time machine, they have absolutely nothing to do with nice guys.

[–]donkeydodoI think, therefore I am - No pill, only human3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nice Guys don't exist.

That's why nice guys exist

I see.

First off, the idea of chivalry has been enhanced, due to feminism. Second, traditionally chivalry used to be rewarded by women. Women have realized that they can manipulate men into a commitment without giving them sex as a reward.

Nice guys are the guys naive enough to believe that their chivalry will be rewarded automatically.

[–]Zippo-Cat-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, nice guys do exist. They exist in huge numbers. You call them Nice Guys. Note the caps. You basically automatically assume that every beta bitch out there is really a sociopathic manipulative asshole. This is fucking laughable.

Second, traditionally chivalry used to be rewarded by women. Women have realized that they can manipulate men into a commitment without giving them sex as a reward.

Which, eventually, makes even the nicest of guys get angry and snap and them.

Then they screencap their snap and post it on /r/niceguys neer-neering "See? They're all really assholes! Told you so!".

It's funny how you seem to speak from the position against women/feminism, yet you're swallowing their Nice Guy bullshit hook, line and sinker.

[–]donkeydodoI think, therefore I am - No pill, only human1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah, I'm not really arguing for any side. I don't believe that nice guys are vile manipulating assholes. I'm arguing from the point that being dogmatic and possessing beliefs of retarded ideas because you want so desperately to find a woman who'll love you the way you love her is wrong.

I'm swallowing the idea that there are nice guys because historically I used to be a nice guy. I was too naive to realize how the reality works, like a lot of other men. The nice guy label disappears as soon one realizes that the Disney concept of love is incorrect. TRP is considered a hard-to-swallow pill for a reason. I don't think all "nice guys" are assholes, I understand their reaction; they do what they're told to do, yet they're denied. Of course, an angry reaction is understandable, that doesn't mean that an angry reaction is a correct way to go.

I understand the nature of women, and instead of being an angry kid and whine about it, I realize that if I behave to their nature accordingly, I will get what I want. Learn and adapt to how the world is and works, instead of projecting your own failures onto others.

[–]Profligate-Prophet3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a guy a care a lot about women, men, and humanity. Thats why i dont care for feminism. It just seems to be a pathway for covert narcissism male or female.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nice Guys don't exist.

lol literally the only people who think this are NiceGuys themselves.

Generally speaking when you have to resort to conspiracy theories to support your position, it's a wrong position.

generally speaking your opinion is irrelevant because you're a NiceGuy

[–]Zippo-Cat-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

lol literally the only people who think this are NiceGuys themselves.

That's a very convenient definition that allows you to instantly disregard any opinion challenging your position.

generally speaking your opinion is irrelevant because you're a NiceGuy

Yes, exactly like this. Thank you for demonstrating. Now run along little NPC, humans are talking.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

so how is the NiceGuy act working for you? you getting laid a lot?

[–]AurumOxideNo Pill19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Had similar perceptions to this in high school, as well. Had a girl over, was really awkward and not forward, but still did some surface level physical stuff with her via her aggression; that night I realized how my insecurities were just dressing up as "oh feminism wants to castrate me." Started to respect myself more, work out, and try to accept my inner core self. Now, I'm still not much into casual sex, but I don't let a boogie monster ideology dictate my actions. If a girl thinks I'm a creep for approaching her, then its probably cause she thinks I'm ugly. Suddenly I'm not creepy when she finds me cute. Go figure. Make yourself, men.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If a girl thinks I'm a creep for approaching her, then its probably cause she thinks I'm ugly. Suddenly I'm not creepy when she finds me cute.

That or she has a boyfriend, is eyeing another guy, etc.

But yeah, unless you either freeze on the spot and leered at her or acted extremely sleazy you were most probably not creepy and it was all in her head.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot28 points29 points  (50 children) | Copy Link

you seem to be conflating being a male feminist with being a giant soggy pussy

you werent hesistant to approach because of some deeply held feminist values. you were afraid to approach becuz you were insecure and saw yourself as not worthy and then backwards rationalized it into some socially acceptable concern for the girl

the male feminists i know personally are always with bad bitches. that doesn't make them any less annoying, but they don't struggle with women necessarily

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 9 points10 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

You do have a point, actually. I associate being a male feminist with being a giant soggy pussy though.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot10 points11 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

there are guys who pretend to be feminist because they think it will make them appealing to women, and then there are guys who are just generally into left wing activism shit and include feminism as part of that. those guys are the biggest fuckboys you will ever meet and probably bang more pretty girls than the average guy just by virtue of proximity. the males in my women's studies program in college were such whores

[–]SerpentCypher3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Left wing activism, pretty girls. Something doesn't add up here...

[–]the_calibre_cat2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lots of hot left-wing women. If you hope to keep your internal self-loathing to a minimum, wish to have a peaceful life, or want to better your life it is best to avoid these women.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, you know, all feminists can’t be as hot as the pro MRA honey badgers...

https://goo.gl/images/Gg829h

https://goo.gl/images/tauM6U

https://goo.gl/images/K4qaNB

To quote George Carlin, I wouldn’t fuck that with a stolen dick.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 3 points4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

huh. interesting. again, i think they were using the left wing shit as a means to an end. if they believed right wing shit would have made them fuckboys than they easily could have chosen that too.

[–]WestsideMoonWalkerChonks Pheel the Phonk13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

TIL that being left leaning and a man can't be sincere, because reasons.

Don't project your own lack of sincerity onto others.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

i...what? no they're actually just politically left wing lol. why would you think everything about a man's character or personality roots back to trying to get girls

[–]HossMcDankEdgy Centrist4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Well there's the obvious trend of male feminists routinely being outed as creeps. Plus you pretty much never see attractive, masculine guys bemoaning their own gender.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You obviously don’t listen to a lot of hip hop

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

i think male feminists get outted as creeps because they're more likely to deal with feminist women who will publicly call a man out.

and masculine? maybe not. but you don't need high masculinity to be attractive to women. some of the guys i know who kill it with girls the most are like fey hipster dudes with liberal arts degrees who know their audience

[–]HossMcDankEdgy Centrist3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

i think male feminists get outted as creeps because they're more likely to deal with feminist women who will publicly call a man out.

But aren't they supposed to be "woke" and respectful of women? Why does there not seem to be much consistency there?

and masculine? maybe not. but you don't need high masculinity to be attractive to women.

The two are very strongly correlated.

some of the guys i know who kill it with girls the most are like fey hipster dudes with liberal arts degrees who know their audience

Right, because no man has ever lied about his success with women and even if they were telling the truth, being successful with blue-haired fat women is not the same as scoring 10s.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Right, because no man has ever lied about his success with women and even if they were telling the truth, being successful with blue-haired fat women is not the same as scoring 10s.

what is with this weird dated view of what feminists look like? idk about where you live but a huge chunk feminist women in their 20s on the coasts are like skinny hot rich girls. this isn't the 90s lol

i know about their success with women because i know the girls they date and hook up with because they're apart of my wider social circle and both the guys and girls openly talk about it. the joys of sex positivity!!

But aren't they supposed to be "woke" and respectful of women? Why does there not seem to be much consistency there?

i don't believe identifying as feminist makes you perfect or not capable of making mistakes, especially when you're talking about people who are relatively young and still learning themselves

[–]Xemnas812 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The meme that all feminists are easily identifiable by their appearance needs to die. Lazy af. I know hardcore MRA women with blue hair...

[–]HossMcDankEdgy Centrist3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

what is with this weird dated view of what feminists look like? idk about where you live but a huge chunk feminist women in their 20s on the coasts are like skinny hot rich girls. this isn't the 90s lol

Because I could count on one hand (with fingers to spare) the number I've met who don't resemble this description, and many more who do. I have a very hard time believing that you know a significant number of bombshells who use terms like "problematic" and "mansplaining" unironically. Rich I can believe because poor people can't afford to waste their money on a gender studies degree.

i know about their success with women because i know the girls they date and hook up with because they're apart of my wider social circle and both the guys and girls openly talk about it. the joys of sex positivity!!

This indicates to me that the quantity of said girls isn't particularly high, and again I'm fairly sure they aren't going to be on the cover of Maxim anytime soon. The idea of skinny-fat beta dorks banging 10s on the regular is so laughably out of sync with the experience of anyone I know that it seems more like a convenient fantasy concocted to encourage more men to become white knights.

i don't believe identifying as feminist makes you perfect or not capable of making mistakes, especially when you're talking about people who are relatively young and still learning themselves

Being a sexual harasser/assailant is a lot more than a "mistake", it's not like you can accidentally do that.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

think everything about a man's character or personality roots back to trying to get girls

because i'm a guy, and i know how guys think. plus, it's not like women don't think this either. you could be talking to a woman for any number of reasons and she'll STILL think you're trying to fuck her.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Only if they're hot though.

saw yourself as not worthy and then backwards rationalized it into some socially acceptable concern

Most leftist guys fall into this.

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Gender studies programs are great for that. So many clueless, but often very attractive women. For many people, "the college experience" is about exactly that.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If it ain’t STEM it don’t matter!

/s

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The latter type also exemplify some tradcon values like male hyper-agency/female hypo-agency despite political equality. They're the main barrier to the success of MRAs after rad-fems.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Correctly and accurately

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (11 children) | Copy Link

This separate poll found that 23 out of 100 male-feminists were claiming that identity in order to "gain favour among Females in hopes of a future relationship". And 22 of those 23 were virgins.
23% of male-feminists in Portland are virgins while only 14.3% of men across America are virgins

[–]Talono3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

separate poll found that 23 out of 100 male-feminists

No, that poll surveyed 100 ex-male-feminists who and was done by those who belonged to a group called Feminists against male-feminists (FAMF). A terrible poll for two reasons:

  1. the poll selected a group that is likely to contain more men who became feminists for ulterior motives rather than believing in the ideologies of feminism: ex feminists
  2. the poll was done by a group specifically looking for men who became feminists for ulterior motives: FAMF

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good points. What do you know about the motives of FAMF? I couldn't find anything about them.

[–]Talono0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

only what was mentioned in the article you linked

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And 22 of those 23 were virgins.

I'd ask, "How's that workin' for ya, son?"

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

poll

lol. Asked 4 friends for an article his journalism class.

For a bunch of science dudes, y’all suck at discerning what credible research is.

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

I believe the person claimed it was 100, not 4. I don't know why are claiming otherwise. Had you read a little further, you might have figured out that this is a psychology student, so it was probably for his psychology class that he did his research. In fact, I don't understand at all what you're trying to say. What is this about journalism class and has does your claim relate to the scientific merit of this poll?

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

And you realize 100 isn't anymore valid a number to attempt to extraopolate to the larger poopulation than 4 is right?

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's a valid argument. And good call not answering my first question, it would make you look stupid.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Learn what sarcasm is

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unless they're affirming left-wing conclusions about the world

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

the male feminists i know personally are always with bad bitches.

👀

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Is being a giant soggy pussy not highly correlated with being a male feminist?

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

no i find a lot of giant soggy pussies are boring libertarian anti-sjws

[–]BlindingTwilight 1 points [recovered]  (8 children) | Copy Link

There are no male feminists who do not struggle with women. The men you know are just confused but socially and physically normal. Any man who is really into feminism is by definition a soggy, weak pussy.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

they were literally in a women's studies program lmao i think that qualifies as "really into feminism"

no they definitely don't struggle with women, the ones im still friends either have hot waifish gfs or are still banging around

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Just being in a woman's studies class doesn't make one a feminist. I can admit that I had an interest in joining one of those classes due to the abundance of most likely slutty girls, but then again i was more feminist minded in college i suppose. but i mean, i'm not a feminist today and would still consider taking a class like that for easy sex.

[–]kandyapplezincel larping as a thot1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

they were either women's studies majors or minors tho, we had repeated classes together

[–]WestsideMoonWalkerChonks Pheel the Phonk0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's really telling to me that he would go to such lengths just for the possibility of sex. That type of mentality reeks of both desperation and complete lack of conviction in one's beliefs.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Eh, you only live once, right?

[–]WestsideMoonWalkerChonks Pheel the Phonk1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You legit sound maybe 17, lmao. Seriously though, part of living a satisfying life, at least for myself, is living with integrity and honesty. It is both something I feel good about, and something that benefits those around me. Plus what's the point of having to deceive people to get what you want, that shit is empty and hollow. TBH it's kinda sad and again, that lack of integrity gets super obvious.

A lack of authenticity is something that also just reflects insanely poorly

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

27, but could pass for 17 if I put on some makeup and got a clean shave lol!

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer10 points11 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Slightly off-topic, perhaps, but am I the only one who thinks the phrase "Saving Masculinity" makes it sound rather like a damsel in distress?

The White Knights need a white knight, lol.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You noticed the not so subtle promotion of his website in his flair right?

Trolled.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm picturing their logo looks something like Rapunzel in a tower but when you look closer, it's Fabio letting down his long hair.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Chad’s here to save you, baby!

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lol...I came up with the name when I was taking a walk and smoking a joint. I now run a blog under the name. The goal is to fight back against those who shame traditional masculinity. women in my town often complain of men being too passive. they lack masculinity.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

in my town

Found the problem. Hard for a guy to be masculine when he sits at a desk, types and talks on the phone all day. How can a man with pretty, soft hands feel like a man? Out here, men run chainsaws, drive tractors and fix stuff. Masculinity is not an issue ...

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah it's Seattle. I've contemplated moving to the actual country down south where feminism isn't as severe.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Seattle, where the women are women, the men are women too, and the sheep are free-range, organic and of heritage breeds! :-D

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I knew this little kid in school. He was smelly, and weird looking, and poor, so all the populars would gather around and make fun of him.

You could see how miserable this kid was, but then one day he started trying a new tactic. He started trying to laugh along with the bullies. He would agree with them that he was gay, smelly, ugly and weird. He would stand in front of them, kind of shyly smiling and trying to laugh along.

They were mocking him for sport, and he was grovelling before them trying to be their friend. It was abject, desperate begging for acceptance, and it was utterly pathetic. Liked a puppy whose owners are shitheads and keep kicking it for fun, but the puppy weakly wags its tail... timidly, but hopefully... and keeps crawling back for more abuse.

That's a male feminist in a nutshell.

[–]321PK 1 points [recovered]  (39 children) | Copy Link

It only reaffirmed my opinion of myself: I was an oppressor of women and had no business approaching them, even in high school.

Wtf? Are you joking me right now? What high school did you ppl go to? I mean like what kind of ppl are thinking/talking about this kind of stuff at like 16 or 17?

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 19 points20 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I went to a preppy party school in Portland, Oregon. Hipsters galore. It's hard to explain how nice guys form opinions about themselves, but it's done incrementally. Like a snowball effect. You hear women complaining about men so much you start to feel guilty for being one.

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

Portland is so wacky, especially the rich folk. You experienced extreme versions of the new hippie, progressive, feminist ideas.

[–]Salty-Bastard4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

They're as bad as any confederate flag waving hayseed.

I had a client who is a rich, hippie, progressive, liberal ask me how she can sell her inherited house in Seattle worth 2 million to someone who isn't a "foreign national". My reply, "so you want to be a racist without seeming to be a racist?". Her answer, "just this once". I turned her down, fucking weirdos...

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's...kind of hilarious. I actually live in the Seattle area now. We have a lot of those types here.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's all good until money comes into play.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Traffic sucks! At least they have the best public transportation in the USA outside New York.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good god I’m so glad I got out on the tail end of sanity in schools

[–]theDukesofSwagger0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You had me at Portland.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A weird, fun city, but traffic is worse than Los Angeles it seems.

[–]Whodunnit88Survivied Purge Week 20186 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've thought that too.

[–]IAmAnUglyMale 1 points [recovered]  (24 children) | Copy Link

I mean I was told this in middle school

[–]321PK 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy Link

That you were an oppressor of women? Lol. No way.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

There are always comments from women, including young women, about how shitty men are. But when it started coming from authority figures, adults, from about high school for me. One time a teacher gave us an assignment to describe our perfect partners. The boys took a traditional approach and were all shamed for wanting 'slaves'. None of the girls were shamed for their preferences, though.

Later on, female teachers would make comments about things like all the estrogen in the water is good for women because men drinking it will make them better.

At university, we were reminded in just about every class of feminism and how men are to blame for all women's misery. For example, in feminism in the media, women blamed men for the ridiculous body standards women feel they have to live up to. They then would point to magazines and media only women consumed that straight men had little to no influence over as evidence. Nevermind the fact that gay fashion designers don't want curvy feminine women in their clothes...

These are just examples but they don't quite cover the extent of the problem. It's in advertising, in all sorts of media and in classrooms with any hint of sociological discussions. Look at how many sitcoms in the 90s essentially boiled down to how much of a bumbling idiot dad is while his practically perfect wife, who everyone knows deserves better, cleans up after him, shits all over him and continues to hold moral superiority over him. All it did was reinforce the belief that men are stupid, useless and are always causing women more problems.

So when women began repeating the rhetoric, it wasn't hard to believe that, yes, maybe men are the problem and I have to do my best not to offend women with my very presence.

Today these issues manifest themselves in men just not wanting to be teachers for fear of being seen as potential sex offenders, people looking at men suspiciously for being at the park while watching their kids when mom is not around or even a babysitter getting questioned by the police.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, it's mostly because women tend to be attracted to men whose sum of traits gets him labeled as a jerk or asshole.
Women may not explicitly go for assholes, but the end effect is the same.

Guess what the "assholes" also grew up listening to the same media. They pay them lip service on the very surface (as to not get arrested) but it's clear from how they act they don't give a fuck.

Feminism started as a movement to earn women their due rights. Nowadays it's mostly a shit test to weed out the undesirable men.

If you fall for the propaganda, you're one of the undesirables (at least your personality is).

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's ironic that listening to women and trying to give them what they say they want is less successful than not giving a fuck.

The whole premise of a nice guy is someone trying to give women what they want. They love a nice guy so much, they wish for "someone like you"... but not actually that guy. They don't see the logic gap in wanting a guy like him and not wanting him. The awkward silence following this conversation, and how often the conversation just ends after "you deserve a nice woman", is telling. They're either willfully ignoring the issue or are unable to see it.

If you fall for the propaganda, you're one of the undesirables (at least your personality is).

Women don't see it this way but if you rephrase it in a different way (nobody wants a doormat or a passive man) they do admit it. Women hold onto seemingly contradictory positions so they don't have to give up the benefits of either, can protect themselves mentally from guilt due to their hypocrisy and can avoid criticism without taking much responsibility.

The propaganda is meant to tame Chad (benefits of both), not to make a supplicating beta a more attractive option.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"you deserve a nice woman"

Maybe that's an unspoken admission she's not a nice woman. :)

can protect themselves mentally from guilt due to their hypocrisy

From my experience growing with women, many of them don't really process cognitive dissonance until later in life.
Many women also really do believe they have the right to be "first among equals" in their relationship with men.

and can avoid criticism without taking much responsibility.

TBH men and women both want to avoid criticism and responsibility.
But that's mostly due to a culture of playing the blame game and shifting responsibility, not some innate gender difference.

The propaganda is meant to tame Chad (benefits of both), not to make a supplicating beta a more attractive option.

Well, there's not enough Chad to go around and "Cat Ladies" is probably gonna rival "Santa Barbara" and "Y&R" in episode count.

The time will come when most of these women will WANT even a decent beta male, but the beta men will have moved on.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷-3 points-2 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

You were told you were an oppressor?

Or you were taught the factual objective history of how women were legally and economically disenfranchised but heard “all penises are evil!!!”

[–]Russelsteapot42Non Pill7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

#MenAreTrash

[–]donkeydodoI think, therefore I am - No pill, only human-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If this isn’t sarcasm, I just want to point out it takes one to know one to be fair

[–]Russelsteapot42Non Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My point was to show how men are casually denigrated to popular approval in our society.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You were told you were an oppressor?

Indirectly, yes. When I was in my teens most media oriented towards that demographic was full of interviews with female artists talking about men being assholes and how they just want a nice guy.

TBH I should've taken the hint from their "sex advice" pages when the picture for the male was always a tall, fit, blue eyed blond guy.

Feminism has turned from a fight against oppression to a fight against undesirable males.

You can bet your ass with hands on both cheeks that when tall, dark, handsome, single guys make inappropriate passes at women at work, there are no HR calls, no media interviews, it's total radio silence.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Indirectly

Of course.

Feminism has turned from a fight against oppression to a fight against undesirable males.

LMAO

You can bet your ass with hands on both cheeks that when tall, dark, handsome, single guys make inappropriate passes at women at work, there are no HR calls, no media interviews, it's total radio silence.

I'll take that bet. How much are we talking?

Cause someone apparently missed Matt Lauer, Russell Simmons, James Franco and Ben Affleck.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Other than James Franco, these guys are now all old and ugly (as opposed to their young days).

And from what I read about them, there are a few instances of legitimate assault or harassment from these guys with most of the accusations coming from basically regret + now we can do it.

Also, it was known these guys were players and were looking for flings as opposed to single guys who may or may not be looking for a relationship.

Let's not shove our heads in the sand that when a LTR with "Mr. Thunderous Rooster" is potentially in the cards women don't tolerate (and even welcome) A LOT of what's being put up in these accusations.

It's less of a "hot rich man groped me" and more of a "hot rich man groped me, but in the end, all he wanted was sex, not an LTR".

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nice hamster

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How many of these are realizations after the fact and regretted consensual interactions vs actual cases of "he was too strong to challenge back then" ?

I'm eagerly waiting for all the women who gave backstage & bus blowjobs to today's rappers to come out 5 to 10 years from now.

If those rappers survive that long and don't get killed in shootouts.

[–]IAmAnUglyMale 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women were never legally or economically disenfranchised so I'll ignore that point.

Yes, that was exactly what I, and millions of other boys are taught from preschool onwards.

[–]Russelsteapot42Non Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women were never legally or economically disenfranchised

Speaking as an MRA shitlord: wat

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, i mean, yes they were. Literally.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women were never legally or economically disenfranchised so I'll ignore that point.

Yep. Just like I said. Heard what you wanted to hear.

Yes, that was exactly what I, and millions of other boys are taught from preschool onwards.

I have a son in public school. You ain’t fooling nobody.

[–]Xemnas81-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They were re: coverture, the lie is universal suffrage, that men had suffrage because they were men (and not for being angry cannon fodder) and that the suffragettes gave us equality when they reformed these laws. As soon as they refused to challenge the male burden while freeing women then they were setting things up for inequality. They were already criticising Blackstone (who gives us the due process principle) wayyy back in the mid 18th century.

(Inb4 the tradcons saying "what's wrong with inequality?")

[–]donkeydodoI think, therefore I am - No pill, only human0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sweden nowadays

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I first studied feminist theory at 17. Had lots of classmates developing political positions; some staunch defenders of capitalism, others militant socialists, feminists, there were indeed a few libertarians in the making...

[–]HossMcDankEdgy Centrist5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think you're overthinking it -- we dislike them because the vast majority are traitorous, brown-nosing little weasels who think shitting on their own gender will make them look virtuous. It's not a coincidence that prominent male feminists keep getting outed as sexual predators over and over again.

There's a reason why it's incredibly uncommon (if existent at all) for attractive, sexually successful men to go on tirades about how their own gender sucks and women are made of sugar and spice -- they don't need to, which is why seemingly every male feminist is a scrawny/fat nerd. It's also symbiotic relationship, as women are put off by self-loathing sycophants and can often see that they're nothing more than NiceGuys™ in disguise.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

we

Who is "we"?

[–]HossMcDankEdgy Centrist1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men who dislike male feminists.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

How do you know who is a "male feminist" and who is not? Maybe you just stick the label on people you already don't like.

It's similar to the "you'll never know IRL" thing we hear all the time about red pillers.

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Noooope lots of hot rich men pandering to feminism and PC to maintain their place near the top of the food chain.

[–]hotcaulkPurple Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It sounds like you are overlooking the role your own insecurity/fear of rejection may have played in shaping your worldview. One teenage girl thinks guys are perverted, that doesn't mean we all do. I had the opposite perspective and couldn't spot creeps effectively for a long time because of it.

Are we using different definitions for the word "feminist"? Feminism is typically described as : the belief that men and women are entitled to equal rights. That's the one I'm using.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was feminist minded. I didn't question what feminism was telling me about myself. I can tell you this: I know a lot of other men have shared my experience. I was basically a male feminist.

You're basically describing my mindset from ages ago.

I never considered myself a feminist (and took particular offense to the "men are our enemy"-mindset that bleeds through their statements), yet my mindset and beliefs were basically feminist in all but name.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nice to know other people can relate. This mindset tanked years of my life.

[–]gasparddelanuit2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What you say is a real and common experience for men growing up in the West, but I think that the main reason why men dislike male feminists is the last reason you give; unjustifiably throwing other men under the bus, in order to ingratiate themselves towards women. As you say, it is pathetic. It also comes across as insincere and weak. Men who refuse to play that game don't buy it.

[–]GoldPilot(⌐■_■)2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm a male feminist and I've never been particularly afraid to make an approach. I just did it in a way that was respectful of the person I was trying to get to know/have sex with. Sex and respect aren't mutually exclusive.

If you act normally, you're probably not going to "offend them with [your] sexuality". I learned that as a kid; my dad taught me to be nice to girls, and trial and error taught me that there's no harm trying (as long as trying isn't harmful in and of itself).

I don't think you were a feminist in spirit; I think you were waiting for a girl to see how "respectful" you were, or you were too scared to make a move. Either way, what you presented was a fairly shallow, non-constructive, self-flagellating view of feminism that seems more like puritanical chastity than sex-positivity. A forgivable thing for a kid, really; a lot of people go through that phase.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well if it works for you, ok.

[–]IAmAnUglyMale 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

My god this sub just repeats the same stupid shit.

What a joke of a debate sub

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When the sub's scope is this limited, there's inevitably gonna be repeats of the same stuff. That said, the answers themselves can vary wildly between posts, which makes it a tad more bearable.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

On the count of 3, men of PPD, stop looking for feminists to hand you your balls.

If you want to have a serious objective conversation about the issues men have and how feminism does or does not play into that, I’m in.

But no one is interested in listening to you blame your social and behavioral disorders on some feminist clock blocking conspiracy.

Learn to be comfortable in your skin, to approach, and to accept failure without withdrawing. Control the fear. Get treated for your anxiety and depression (ain’t no shame in it). Grow the fuck up, because if you need this level of female/maternal handholding just to cope with the basics of life, you have no business being out in the world.

Some tough love for your ass.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll take it.

[–]the_calibre_cat5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No one arguing for feminists to hand men their balls

They are arguing that feminists have an outsize voice in the media, and that their philosophy is missing gaping holes in it's behavioral prescriptions for men, and thus is a philosophy that men should not listen to until that's addressed.

Men should largely agree on the notions of equal rights and equal opportunity - they should largely oppose the core of what feminism has become nowadays, which is largely to advocate for social "justice" activism, AKA "feel bad for being white while male you foot soldier of the patriarchy" and "fund everything" politics.

Male identity should not be negative by default, as feminists have worked so diligently to frame it as such.

[–]Whodunnit88Survivied Purge Week 20182 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You should tell male feminists that.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why do women hate them?

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not a woman, I don't know. I'm guessing it's because they are fake as fuck.

[–]HossMcDankEdgy Centrist1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nobody likes a brown-noser.

[–]Xemnas810 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Mainly because they try and apply the standard of 'women's liberation' to men, which is against female hypergamy.

[–]I_sort_by_new_fam1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

stopped reading at nice guy pussies

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

good for you

[–]analt223No Pill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

was raised by a bunch of feminist (and a dad who just nodded and agreed because he wanted to fuck my mom a lot) women (mom and her 2 sisters). Have an older brother whose a fucking pussy, and a sister who majored in women's studies who all say the "its all just the social constructs!" crap.

My older brother is 37, still lives with his parents, and is just now finally realizing that men who wait for women to protect and provide because men and women are the exact same! legislate the patriarchy away! crap is bullshit.

Doesn't mean get pissy over some dumb ghostbusters movie, or harass women with dick picks or some autistic shit, but god damn are male feminists fucking stupid.

[–]lbspredh1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean, it's just that being lectured is really annoying, like dude just fuck off I don't care if what I like is problematic

[–]Xemnas811 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

John Stuart Mill; "the generality of the male sex are not yet ready to handle a relationship with a woman as an equal."

The Subjection of Women, 1869

The rot goes deep.

[–]NeedingAdvice861 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

" maybe I can show women how much different I am from other guys"

Girls, indeed, DO NOT want guys who are different than the guys who pursue their sexual needs and desires.

But you are right there are a host of guys who waste countless years of their lives trying to "not be one of those guys"...what guys you ask, that would be the guys whom all the girls are actually fucking and enjoying the hell out of fucking.

Funny thing is that it is really I suspect another of the great jokes on mankind...at which God sits back and laughs for days....because women or whoever go about projecting this meme out to young guys which actually only hinders guys who women would indeed most likely really like to have as solid partners...leaving mostly guys who actually are assholes, narcissistic, psycho, selfish or just don't give a shit about anyone but themselves still out chasing and fucking the girls...so it is a circular firing squad.

So women or whoever says don't be one of those guys which only registers with dudes who give care about other's feelings but it has NO IMPACT on the guys who are just after what ever they can get regardless of how much damage comes of it which makes women even more prone to scream that guys only want them for sex....well, yeah because your warnings only deter guys who might actually care about things beside the sex.

[–]ScootsScoots1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Male feminists are hated because they are fake; simply working a different angle to get laid. We know this because modern third wave feminism is entirely agenda driven trash that harms men and women. Nobody subscribes to it unless they are working an angle.

Since they cant compete, they resort to this nice guy routine.

They are the type of people who will try to get you fired because you slept with the girl they've been orbiting for 8 years.

[–]Whodunnit88Survivied Purge Week 20181 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Male feminists are weak and a traitor to their own gender. Plus I highly suspect that most of them don't even care about issues regarding women and are just pretending to so they can get laid.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't like traitors, hence not liking male feminists. And yeah, I hate their moral posturing about issues they couldn't give a damn about.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

How old are you?

Throwing other men under the bus who didn't necessarily do anything wrong, just for the chance at pussy is really fucking pathetic.

Aren't you doing the same thing?

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just turned 27 but I feel and look younger!

[–]aldz13 points4 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Yeah look mate, the definition of feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." Do you not want women to have the same rights as men?

If you don't think is sexism alive and well you haven't worked in an office with women and if you have, then you are not perceptive enough to notice it. If you can't at least acknowledge the plight of women then I guess you are part of the problem.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

women have all the rights now. there are many women who believe feminism is unnecessary now.

i believe there will always be sexism. nothing can change that.

[–]HossMcDankEdgy Centrist6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh wow, the definition "argument", nobody has ever pulled that shit before! Wow, I'm sold!

The definition doesn't mean shit when at least 80% of feminists are simply anti-male bigots who want a positive label. Women already objectively have more rights than men, and of course feminists are fine with this.

It's funny how feminists reject the dictionary definition of sexism yet use the dictionary definition to erase their real world actions. And of course you throw in the obligatory "disagreeing with me proves me right", stop being a walking cliche.

[–]ShawshankRetention4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Like the original poster, i used to think i was a feminist too.

Equal right, who would be against them, and if you are told women are unfairly treated, it is normal to be driven to feminism.

Then i met some feminists ... and oh boy were they far from that. While i initially agreed on most points, because we are only feed information by feminist persepective, the realisation their belief were circular (they were discriminated because there was a patrarchy and that there was a patriarchy because they were discriminated), the denial of reality of certain points and the total absence of empathy for non sucessfull men pushed me to do some research on the subject.

Then you naively come up with arguments and try to discuss, only to realise that hate groups are not made from reflexion but from the emotional rejection of some people.

Feminism isent about equal rights. Women have already more right than men, in law and social norms.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And there isn't a problem. Sexism is not rampant in society, a guy making a pass at a woman in social media is a pretty shit excuse for "this is why we march."

Contemporary feminism is not "all about the same rights as men." Contemporary feminism is about social justice activism, which basically is socialist activism with casually anti-white anti-male sentiments. White guys should absolutely not be feminists, and I'd caution my black and Hispanic brothers that they want to control them, too.

[–]l3v1athaN_0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then why does it have "fem" in the name? Why not use the label egalitarian? And why do most self-proclaimed feminists seem to be interested solely in the furtherment of women, and only sometimes peripherally in men's issues? Ha, plight of women. What plight of women? Can you name a single thing? If you can't recognise we live in a gynocentric society, you are in denial.

[–]orcscorper..||. |.|.| ...|| .|.|| |..||1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

I haven't worked in an office with women. I work in a warehouse, lifting heavy shit all day. The office women make more money for less work, yet are somehow "oppressed".

Edit: downvoting without replying just means I made you mad, but you don't have an argument. You just keep being mad, and I'll just keep being right.

[–]WestsideMoonWalkerChonks Pheel the Phonk0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

That has nothing to do with gender specifically (as lots of women do other types of blue collar work) and everything to do with oppression of the working class and blue collar workers by corporate interests

[–]atlantic68Purple Shill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or that blue collar work requires no skills and high school dropouts can do it vs jobs that require degrees

[–]l3v1athaN_0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Then why aren't women being oppressed by these elusive corporate interests? Why aren't women, who pay less taxes than men yet consume the most money from welfare, who are overrepresented in consumer spending and controlling household finance despite working less, working easier jobs both mentally and physically (a effect that multiples in society the more egalitarian it gets, see: Scandinavia), taking easier subjects in school, and in the face of all that and so much more being the only sex that is publicly allowed to claim there is sexism against them?

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why aren't women, who pay less taxes than men

Can you tell me which line on my 1040 gives me that automatic Female Rebate? Because it seems I've been missing it ... for over 30 years.

Uncle Sam owes me a huge refund ...

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right next to the line item on your pay stub where the patriarchy removes the requisite amount to account for the wage gap

[–]orcscorper..||. |.|.| ...|| .|.|| |..||-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great story. The comment to which I replied stated "If you don't think is sexism alive and well you haven't worked in an office with women..."

I don't know how working in the office with women would teach me more about sexism than would working in a warehouse while the women work in a climate-controlled office, but I guess that's because I never had the privilege of working in an office with women. But no, I'm sure they are oppressed in their own special way. Everyone is oppressed these days, and some more than others.

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

but I guess that's because I never had the privilege of working in an office with women

Should have stayed in college!

That's what I tell my boyfriend as I head out to dig post holes for real estate signs when it's 19 degrees with a wind chill of seven below.

[–]poppy_blublack midget wine mom 🍷0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No offense but I'll take lifting heavy shit as the easier job than navigating office politics and being repsonsible for delivering financial results any day.

Not that labor jobs aren't hard, important or worthy of respect.

[–]orcscorper..||. |.|.| ...|| .|.|| |..||0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, our front office isn't that high-pressure. They don't even need to know as much about the product as we do in the warehouse. Also, no office is necessary for "office politics".

[–]atlantic68Purple Shill0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

No offense but if you do ape work you get ape pay. Every woman that works here deserves the extra money they make over you

[–]orcscorper..||. |.|.| ...|| .|.|| |..||-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

They answer phones. I know more about the product than half of them, and it's their job to know the product to better help the customers. It is grueling work sitting in a cube and Facebooking half the day.

[–]atlantic68 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy Link

Nobody i work with at this sp500 company jerks around at work.

Speak for your own shitty corp only

[–]orcscorper 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

That's rude. And arrogant. Not quite a violation of the "be civil" rule, but rude and arrogant enough that my first reaction was to break the rule in this reply.

And if whoever keeps downvoting me in violation of the rules would kindly fuck off, that would be awesome.

[–]atlantic68 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Not everyone works a shit office job

[–]orcscorper 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

Okay. It's gotta be you downvoting me. Nobody who didn't get a notification for a comment reply would just hop in to downvote that quickly on a day-old thread. I'm fucking done with you. Go piss up a rope.

[–]atlantic68 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why do i care about votes lol

[–]orcscorper 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

Don't know. Don't care. Don't like you. Don't talk to me.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Feminists are disliked by people who aren't, just like religious people are disliked by people who aren't, nerds are disliked by people who aren't, etc. Also, it is not 'feminism' to believe that men are inherently predatory or pervy; that's actually an old form of sexism. Even the branches of feminism that are very keen on "men are jerks/pervs" don't believe it's inherent (except maybe a few radfems); they think it's socialization all the way down.

I really do think people around here need to get over high school. High school is like a cocoon--you're trapped in there while a bunch of gross stuff is going on internally to change you into your adult form, and then you emerge into actual life. When you're in the cocoon, it's best to just keep your head down and let it happen. Don't be fussed about dating; dating is better when everyone has reliable transportation and their own place, anyway.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really do think people around here need to get over high school. High school is like a cocoon--you're trapped in there while a bunch of gross stuff is going on internally to change you into your adult form, and then you emerge into actual life. When you're in the cocoon, it's best to just keep your head down and let it happen. Don't be fussed about dating; dating is better when everyone has reliable transportation and their own place, anyway.

Dude that's a brilliant analogy. Like serious. Awesome tactular. Such a great middle finger to the assholes I had to deal with in high school.

[–]AutoModeratorMarried to Littleknownfacts[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Attention!

  • You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.

  • For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.

  • If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.

  • OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[–]Shazoa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You don't have to be anything like a 'nice guy' stereotype to be a male feminist, but I could definitely see that being common. I'd say it's a better idea to form an opinion on people individually instead. Might be too late though cause the stereotype is sticking.

[–]statsfoddernot blue, not red.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Many men are no longer caring about the media's and the feminist's agendas so it is having less of an effect, meanwhile feminist men do care so guess who is now in line to get bullied...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They're lucky they aren't doing that shit in the ghetto, they'd be fucked.

Unless you're white and call the cops, then you automatically win while Biggie and Pac catch some lead

[–]Jaeger__850 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They are like the nazi collaborators during WW 2.

[–]Heartfelt_hasbeen0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus fucking Christ. A red pill man will find a fucking way to make feminism all about him. Dude, live your life while treating all people fairly and with respect. That’s literally all we want.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Holy shit, you are spot on!

[–]Crook560 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you believe men should always pay for every date?

[–]meezerface0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It sounds like you are on the autistic spectrum. Not in an offensive way, but the way your logic goes, the fact you cannot be sure if someone is joking and your writing style are big hints. That seems like it'd be a bigger issue for you than problems around feminism, alphas or whatever.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

How condescending.

[–]Ahabs_Pegleg 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

You got issues dude.

[–]SavingMasculinitySAVINGMASCULINITY.COM[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Don't we all

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

© TheRedArchive 2024. All rights reserved.
created by /u/dream-hunter