TheRedArchive

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44

If you check out the posts on r/niceguys (those few posts that aren't obvious trolls that reddit thinks are real that is) it's almost always a guy sending creepy messages and being either a white knight or narcissist flaunting how much he respects womyn or whatever, then becomes a belligerent fuckboy when they get rejected or called out that would make incels blush.

Wasn't the point of the term "nice guy" originally that guys who liked girls and were nice to them just because they were nice were often less successful than attractive guys who were less nice? Men would sometimes be described as nice guys if they had a good personality but were otherwise unremarkable, and being a nice guy wasn't necessarily a disparaging description. The moment someone flips the table when a women won't fuck him he outs himself as not a "nice" guy but an egotistical cunt. When did that become part of the definition?

I often hear people of both the red and blue side of the debate (but especially blue) talk about nice guys with the sentiments like "nobody owes you sex because you are nice to them," but that isn't really being nice. If you act nice because you wan't sex and then become a vitriolic asshole when you get turned down then you are the exact opposite of nice.


[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure29 points30 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

“Nice guy” is the term used to paint a multitude of guys who act nice for various reasons.

The common “nice guy” is your typical, frustrated guy who doesn’t understand how human attraction works. There may be some mild autism or social learning disability or barrier at play here, if not sheer inexperience stemming from social anxiety.

These “nice guys” have been fooled or mislead to believe that in order to get girls to like you, you have to be nice to them. That is, of course, only one piece of the rubik’s cube of what makes a particular woman attracted to someone, so once these guys find out that simply being nice isn’t enough, they become angry because they’ve been basically lied to about what they need to do. Add on the fact that people want to feel liked and desired for who they are, and then discovering that people only like you for what you can do for them (and in the case of sexual relationships, being physically and mentally attractive), then it understandably becomes a source of stress and frustration.

The other “nice guys” are similar, but deliberately more deceptive in how they approach women, to the point of bordering on sociopathy or psychopathy.

“Nice guys” can be sociopaths, but not all sociopaths are “nice guys.”

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

That is, of course, only one piece of the rubik’s cube of what makes a particular woman attracted to someone, so once these guys find out that simply being nice isn’t enough, they become angry because they’ve been basically lied to about what they need to do.

It's more that being nice is ultimately pretty inconsequential, if not outright counterproductive.

[–]SerpentCypher18 points19 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I've got to admit I'm getting weary of the whole " being nice is the bare minimum" spiel that gets trotted about on here. From what I've seen NiceGuys get frustrated because niceness isn't actually on the list of requirements at all.

It rings hollow because there are scores of men that haven't got a nice bone in their body that do very well with women. Abusers, bullies, sociopaths, criminals and all kinds of men that aren't nice are in relationships and cleaning up in the SMP.

NiceGuy's frustration is precisely because of people telling them things like "being nice is the bare minimum" because if that were true, they would automatically be doing better with women than the guys mentioned above. Yet anyone who has spent any amount of time in the real world knows which type of men are thriving in the SMP and which group are left by the wayside and incessantly mocked on the internet for being unhappy about it.

When these guys describe themselves as such, they don't mean " I am nice so I deserve sex/a relationship". They are saying " I am nicer than Tyrone who is in and out of jail, or Jack who abuses his girlfriend and has three other women on the side. Why are these guys doing so well with women while someone like me goes ignored?"

[–]sketch1620009 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I think what's particularly jarring about it for a lot of guys is just how disproportionate the penalty for being a Nice Guy is. Like, the reasons why Nice Guys come off as unattractive make sense and logically if you understand that much then it stands to reason that a Nice Guy would do worse in the dating market, possibly even worse than an actually bad person who otherwise has charisma in spades.

But it goes much further than that. These guys are usually totally locked out of dating and completely incelled. Derided as some of the worst mysoginists in existence and regarded as creeps, sleazeballs and rapists in the making. I mean, sure, I can get that he's a bit unattractive and boring, but to warrant the kind of seething hatred, rage and visceral disgust just seems totally out of left field, especially considering that a lot of women literally and specifically say that they a looking for a nice guy. It would be like if you deliberately ordered something that you're mildly allergic to at a restaurant and then screamed bloody murder and accused the chef of trying to kill you when your plate arrived.

[–]saradoodledumBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

The reason incels are called creeps and rapists is because they frequently make posts saying they would like to rape women.

[–]sketch1620001 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

This thread is about Nice Guys

[–]saradoodledumBlue Pill Woman3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

And you claimed that Nice Guys were incels who were derided for being rapists?

[–]sketch1620004 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I meant incelled literally, as in involuntarily celibate, as in they just can't get laid. "Incel" does not automatically mean "posts mysoginistic rants online."

[–]saradoodledumBlue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah it does. The term your looking for is virgin. And virgins are hardly derided as rapists.

[–]sketch1620006 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No it literally does not. Just the dictionary definition of "involuntary" and "celibate." Besides, the term itself was coined by a woman to describe the condition of not being able to participate sexually/romantically in the first place, long before r/incels was a thing.

And "virgin" and Nice Guy are definitely not necessarily the same thing, seeing as we were all virgins at some point and only a few of us ended up as Nice guys. Also, a Nice Guy could sleep with a hooker and he'd very likely still be a romantically unsuccessful nice guy anyway. What's up with all these imprecise definitions you're trying to argue?

However...since you seem to be struggling to understand me I will revise my earlier statements for clarity:

But it goes much further than that. These guys are usually totally locked out of dating and completely incelled unable to successfully find any romance, sex or willing partners at all.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"I shouldn't be doing worse than Henry"

[–]SyrusDrake5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When these guys describe themselves as such, they don't mean " I am nice so I deserve sex/a relationship". They are saying " I am nicer than Tyrone who is in and out of jail, or Jack who abuses his girlfriend and has three other women on the side. Why are these guys doing so well with women while someone like me goes ignored?"

Holy shit, you can't imagine how much I wish more people understood that!! Nice Guy frustration, at least if you're not a complete sociopath, doesn't come from "I'm nice, people should have sex with me" but "how come being nice seems to lower my chances compared to people who are pretty objectively not nice?".

[–]Freethetreees2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Masculinity and attractiveness is the bare minimum. On top of that, women want men that are NICE TO THEM.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Women don’t care about how “nice” you are. They care about how good you treat them. You can be pretty douchey to everyone else within reason. Unless she finds random assholeishness to strangers to be entertaining, of course.

[–]Esk1mOz4mb1kFormer Nice Chad3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

They care about how good you make them feel.

FTFY

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Pretty much the same thing, but if it makes you feel better to have it worded that way, then okay.

[–]Esk1mOz4mb1kFormer Nice Chad0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really mon garçon.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm a nice guy.

That means I'm average, boring, not exciting, plain, treat people with respect pay my bills on time, etc.

[–]the_calibre_cat6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You fucking chauvinist.

[–]Ultramegasaurus75 points76 points  (38 children) | Copy Link

The "nice guys are actually assholes" meme is being pushed so hard because women just love it. Rejecting nice guys goes completely against all those cultural narratives of virtuous female sexuality and women hate it when their contradictory nature is in the spotlight. "How to reject nice but unattractive men without seeming shallow?" Queue the "nice guys" meme: accuse every man who feels as much as slight frustration and confusion about women's stated and actual preferences of being a manipulative monster. Continue chasing stereotypical hot jerks because other men "are the same/worse anyway".

[–]reluctantly_red33 points34 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

"How to reject nice but unattractive men without seeming shallow?"

You can't in reality so cue the hamster. In reality the vast majority of nice guys aren't flipping out over being rejected (or more often not even being noticed in the first place). Sure they get frustrated and confused but the vast majority just sulk off after yet another rejection. If nothing else TRP exposes how shallow women really are and how little being nice means. After taking TRP guys may remain frustrated but they are no longer confused.

[–]Ultramegasaurus15 points16 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

You can even see it on the /r/niceguy sub itself. Lots of post aren't even about guys getting angry at a woman in particular but acting sad/frustrated/confused about the situation in general. Or, even worse, they make fun of guys who say exactly what "woke" women claim they want men to say/think like.

[–]the_calibre_cat10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, actually, I remember this one comic that was posted to /r/niceguys where the punchline was literally a guy feeling bad that he got turned down.

He didn't go into a violent rage when his advances we spurned, the comic ended with him just feeling bad. And /r/niceguys, that bastion of tolerant, progressive, nuanced, informed, empirical people, had a fucking field day with it.

[–]reluctantly_red16 points17 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

they make fun of guys who say exactly what "woke" women claim they want men to say/think like.

Another RP lesson. Don't listen to what women say -- observe what they do.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't listen to what women say -- observe what they do

People

[–]PM_M3_TASTY_RECIPES 1 points [recovered]  (6 children) | Copy Link

Those "woke" guys deserve all the ridicule they get. I'm glad that they are more likely to be purged from the gene pool.

[–]tnais1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think that's how it works lol

[–]Ultramegasaurus5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Honestly, I wish we lived in a world where those "woke" guys, nice guys, male feminists etc. are the slayers while the jerks and criminals are incel. It would definitely be a better place.

[–]PM_M3_TASTY_RECIPES 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

We'd have gone extinct a long time ago. We got here because we reproduce like this.

[–]mgtownigga4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

while this is true, we don't really need to reproduce like this anymore, and havent for a LONG time. If anything, the fact that we still do is a detriment at this point. Last thing we need is more criminals and idiots having kids and not taking care of them.

AT this point, it'd be best if it worked in the opposite imho

[–]mwait0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus fucking why?

[–]yushabindonaldh0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol

[–]openoids6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

when I looked at the subscribers at 33k, I thought "wow...what a hate fest." It's a disguised forum to rid the gene pool of dead wood while still believing it's a virtuous -protector of damsels.

[–][deleted] 38 points39 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Women love the "nice guys are actually assholes" meme because it makes women feel better about rejecting nice guys.

[–]Ultramegasaurus26 points27 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, pretty much what I said. I'm sure lots of women are kind of relieved when the guy they rejected acts frustrated. It delivers such a nice justification for rejection that keeps up their whole "we're not shallow" shtick.

Hell, I've seen women go "see, he's such an immature asshole, dodged a bullet heh" when the rejected guy simply cuts contact FFS.

[–]the_calibre_cat8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I often think you're extreme and wrong about a lot of things, Lewis.

But there is absolutely truth to this one, and I guarantee that you'll see the heat death of the universe or the big rip before any woman ever admits that to a man.

[–]PM_M3_TASTY_RECIPES 1 points [recovered]  (2 children) | Copy Link

They love it because they love to hate on weak men. The negative qualities of the nice guys are secondary to their contempt for weaklings.

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Don't you love to hate on weak men too?

[–]wtffellification0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

no, that one is different

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS16 points17 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, here is a post of mine I mad three years ago. It only refers to feminists, but you can easily expand it to nice guy-haters at large.

I forgot one point, though: It simply feels good to some people to kick those at the bottom of the food chain. I mean, the fact that there's apparently some feminist sub that scours /r/menslib of all places for incidents of sexism tells you everything you need to know.



Alternative explanation: they hate nice guys because the idea that what nice guys criticize could be right is threatening to the feminist narrative on a fundamental level.

Here is a post of mine where I disassemble the reasons that are never brought up why the "nice guy"-issue is at odds with the feminist take on relationships.


They fight against the concept of the friendzone because admitting it has its merits would require the following:

  1. Admitting that women can have power over men by virtue of being women and that the intergender dynamics aren't even remotely as lopsided as feminist theory says they are. However, if one admits that women can exert influence, even control over men by virtue of having a vagina, without holding an office or having tangible power, it puts the whole "women as slaves of men"-narrative into question feminism has pushed for decades; and also serves as a counterargument against the necessity of parity: if women have an edge over men by default in their mutual relationships, can make men work for them, do them favors, do their bidding with the implied promise of intimacy, it puts their idea of equality into question.
  2. Accepting the concept of the friendzone requires accepting that women can knowingly be shitty to men too and exploit them as well, and, more importantly, that it's the default mode for many intergender relationships. Again, this goes against the narrative of women as victims and men as perpetrators. It requires accepting that women can be responsible for a shitty situation as well and not just men. However, by vilifying "nice guys", feminists are flipping the script and place the full blame solely on the guy in order to deflect from female shittiness.
  3. It requires accepting that feminism is wrong. Think of it: one of the biggest issues of feminism is that looks shouldn't matter. And one of their biggest beefs is that women are valued by men for their looks. However, admitting that women value looks as much as men (and have higher standards for what consitutes "hot" on top of that) would mean undermine their stance regarding lookism: how can you hound specifically men for their fixation on looks when women aren't any better? The second issue is that of masculinity: feminism fought toxic and not-so-toxic-masculinity tooth and nail. Admitting that their ideal of the sensitive thoughtful femininized mean is a huge pussy repellant would also undermine that angle of feminism (the production of compliant beta males who respect women) - because if men are presented with the choice of appealing to women and respecting women, they'll as a rule choose the former over the latter. So by hounding and vilifying friendzoned guys, they're also preserving their fundamental tenets of how gender relations are supposed to be and deflect criticism away from them.
  4. Ultimately, it requires realizing that a lot of the value women have for men comes from them being potential partners (which ultimately includes having sex with them, i.e. objectification); and that women would have a hard time generating male interest absent that fact, just by virtue of having a sharp wit or a winning personality. By shaming men collectively for seeing their female acquaintances as potential partners first and most, they're also trying to delegitimize that approach towards women which basically amounts to fighting biology (which, let's be honest here, sums up most of what feminism does).

And here's a video from GWW where she gives also a pretty reasonable explanation about why feminists loathe nice guys; (13:00-18:30 is completely skippable, though). To quote from the video:


"But it's my belief that it's just the type of conflict between explicit and implicit attitudes that leads many feminists to vilify and impute malicious intent on Nice GuysTM - because a feminist's explicit attitude is that she likes, desires and respects men who are nice, respectful, supportive, even submissive and always agreeable with her. Well, I'm betting that that attitude frequently does not agree with her implicit and unconscious attitude that men who supplicate, beg, wait respectfully, pine and blindly serve female interests at the expense of their own pride are weak, pathetic and unworthy as mates.

[...]

Now, it that woman [who has friendzoned a Nice GuyTM who got fed up with being taken advantage of and stepped out of line in any manner] is a feminist, at that moment - the moment she realizes she has been using this poor sap, who is everything she claims to desire, but who leaves her dryer than the Mojhave desert - she's gonna have a crisis of conscience. Does she admit to herself that the explicit attitude that forms so much of her worldview as a feminist is not her real attitude? Does she admit that despite her stated and probably passionately believed ethic that men should be allowed to be weak without facing contempt, should be allowed to show emotion without being seen as pathetic and unfuckable, should be allowed to be respectful to the point of reverence because that's what women reeeeeaaally want in a man - does she admit to herself that it's all bullshit, that she would rather masturbate with a cheesegrater than go to bed with this guy?

[...]

What a feminist does - what she must do in order to convince herself that she's neither a hypocrite nor a shitty person is find some very good, very feminist-y reason why all the blame for the situation and her feelings about it can be laid at the feet of the Nice GuyTM . She has to convince herself - and others - that he's not really nice and project imputations and malicious intent on him to prove it. [...] What [the Nice GuyTM ] is, is creepy and kind of a perv, and a predator - a guy who only acts nice because he believes that being nice to a woman will entitle him to sex, that she owes him if he's only nice enough" - if he only fools her into thinking that way. He only sees her as a "disembodied vagina, a prize, an object to buy things for and claim ownership of" - hell, he's practically a rapist, he has just chosen a different modus operandi and toolkit.

You see? You see how that works? I mean, now that we all know how Nice GuysTM really are, it's obviously okay for that feminist to hate and be disgusted by him. The malice and manipulation she projects on him make her not a hypocrite, not a bad feminist, not a manipulator to take advantage of a man's affection to get the benefits of a boyfriend with none of the reciprocal investment, not a user, and not imperfect. Because if he was actually nice, she'd want to fuck him, just like any good feminist would. But he's not nice at all. He's a horrible person, you see, and hell! all the way she took advantage of him, his affections, are even justifiable in light of that. After all, a piece of shit like that doesn't deserve to be treated fairly and kindly especially not by somebody who has women's best interest and fairness and equality in mind [...] Honestly, it would be more honest and a lot easier on everyone if feminists just came out and admitted that they just don't want to fuck those guys [who behave like they say men should behave]."

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.12 points13 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Most women will be honest about this shit if you word it in a way that isn't threatening to her. If you make it clear out the gate that you think nice guys are dishonest and sneaky, she'll be completely transparent about why she doesn't like them either. She does so becuase she doesn't feel you'll judge her for her beliefs. Much in the same way that if you create and environment where a women doesn't feel like a slut for being sexual, she will be very open about what she likes and quite possibly wanna give that same stuff to you.

Thats why I love my wife. This evening I mentioned the meme from here yesterday of "Hot women just wish that ugly men would go crawl in a hole and die somewhere". She said "It's true, or at the very least leave me the fuck alone".

Women will never be open with society about how they truly feel because they fear the judgment by the court of public opinion. They need to be comfortable to communicate, but incels, RP lunatics and crazy feminists won't ever let that happen.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They need to be comfortable to communicate, but incels, RP lunatics and crazy feminists won't ever let that happen.

If they are dishonest, they've only themselves to blame when men notice the double standards and refuse to play their game. They're also expecting a lot feeling entitled to shit all over men but needing a safe, comfortable, judgement free space before they'll be honest.

[–]NeedingAdvice861 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That is sort chicken and egg.....

Point to me a point in the past where women said that they wanted\loved bad guys\jerks? Where they didn't pin article after article about wanting guys who were thoughtful, nice, and all the other shit that "nice guys" believe is optimal dating strategy?

You claim that women would be honest but since they are the ones intimating to everyone for the past 50 years that they are looking for a nice, respectful guy who does so and so....your point doesn't really stand up to reality.

The question isn't what women like...we all know what drives women wild....the question is about the hypocrisy of saying one thing and acting in another fashion.

And you fall victim to your own ego....you want to claim that you are so fucking awesome that YOUR GIRL opens up about her true thoughts....bgahhaahhahahahahaha. You do know that she simply said that because she knew that is what you wanted her to believe...the last guy who she fucked for days on end, if he phrased it to her as "isn't it horrible that women hate nice guys", she would have been just as agreeable.

Actually the only women who I have seen get vitally upset about "nice guys" are indeed those who had guys who liked them, they knew that the guys like them and they used that attraction for various things then when the dirt hit the road they hit the "nice guy are horrible" button...the more they used the guy the more they hated "nice guys".

I learned this lesson early on....the only girls who every intimated that I was "nice" were those in whom I had no interest......so ladies if I am being nice to you, you can be assured that I have no interest in you.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The question isn't what women like...we all know what drives women wild....the question is about the hypocrisy of saying one thing and acting in another fashion.

Since I really like quoting myself:

Deficit orientation: When complaining about traits they'd like to see in a man, [women]'ll usually point out those they miss in their SOs. So when she complains that her guys are arrogant, dismiss her and her interests, are always pressuring her to have sex, have "immature"/dangerous hobbies, but should be more respectful towards her, kinder, treat her like a princess, be more sophisticated etc. they're just mentioning the attributes that are nice to have, and often should only be applied in moderation - not the ones that made them fall for a man in the first place.

Women say they want nice guys precisely because they go after guys who aren't - or rather: because they prioritize attractiveness over niceness and then are totally surprised when they don't get niceness. Add to the fact that niceness correlates negatively with attractiveness, and you've got yourself a recipe for desaster.

[–]the_calibre_cat3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

*drops mic*

...

*burns entire stage to the ground, as only a problematic cis white male would*

[–]Ezreal39 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly it.

Before it was so straightfoward. Jerks get women, nice guys don't. This is still the way it works. It will always be the way it works.

But women hated how this put their hypocrisy on display. So there's been a massive effort to obfuscate the face value of the term "nice guy".

[–]mgtownigga2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

this is it. There are definitely guys that fit that bill, but it's not as ubiquitous or common as women would have you believe. Furthermore, women aren't stupid. A lot of women know that guys are into them and they allow them into their lives and accept their time and favors. When men are conditioned to think that being a certain way results in romantic bonds/sex, and women blatantly and mercilessly play upon this misguided notion, you're bound to have some sour apples. im not defending the anger, but lets be realistic.

edit: and before anyone says 'but what can we do if theyre persistant or obfuscate their intentions???', I have known women that avoid these pitfalls by telling guys that nothing will happen or ignoring them entirely. that's often a much better route than pretending that there is some sort of 'friendship' and giving these guys hope, however foolish they are for having it.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have known women that avoid these pitfalls by telling guys that nothing will happen or ignoring them entirely. that's often a much better route than pretending that there is some sort of 'friendship' and giving these guys hope, however foolish they are for having it.

Telling a guy that "nothing will happen" and "giving him hope" isn't mutually incompatible.

[–]mgtownigga2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

yeah I know, some girls will say one thing yet still lead the guys on.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Leading on" sounds as if it's done intentionally; it doesn't even have to be that.

[–]idhavetocharge6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your comment is a 'nice guy' meme.

Do you all fail to comprehend that the 'Nice Guy' referred to on the internet is literally an asshole that says 'But I was so nice to you' six seconds before calling a woman a bitch and telling her she would rather fuck 'Chad' than be with him (mr nice guy).

Your comment is hilariously ironic.

[–]Orange_PaisleyOrange pill is best pill1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

We don't reject them for being nice though.

[–]Ultramegasaurus8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

True enough, it's usually that they're unattractive.

[–]Orange_PaisleyOrange pill is best pill3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Not always. Sometimes it's because they're boring or we don't feel like we have anything in common with them. Sometimes they rub us the wrong way by sending dick pics or jumping into sex talk with women they've never met. Sometimes we already have boyfriends or husbands. Sometimes we're lesbians. Sometimes we are focusing on school or work or other obligations and aren't interested in dating. There are a host of reasons why women reject men that have nothing to do with their level of attractiveness.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes it's because they're boring

That means he is unattractive. If you don't get excited in his presence or he turns you off, that means he's unattractive. He may be physically striking or handsome, but does he attract your attention? A boring man won't.

As for the rest of your post, a man who is attractive enough tends to get away with behavior that would be labelled creepy if an unattractive man did it.

Exhibit A:

https://www.boredpanda.com/social-experiment-guy-created-fake-tinder-profile-hot-model-pictures-germanlifter/

[–]Orange_PaisleyOrange pill is best pill-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It doesn’t necessarily mean he is unattractive in general though - it means his is unattractive to that particular girl. Since, you know, we are not the borg and are allowed to have different ideas of what is interesting or boring.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yee but the argument still stands. Unattractive men get rules. Attractive men get exceptions.

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes we reject them because they think that their niceness is transferable to their overall attractiveness and it doesn't even add a droplet of moisture to our vaginas

[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Only if you think naivity and codependency are sociopathic.

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman35 points36 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

If you act nice because you wan't sex and then become a vitriolic asshole when you get turned down then you are the exact opposite of nice.

Yeah.... thats kind of the point. It's sarcasm. But more specifically about the way that some guys can apparently not only think they're being nice when they're totally not being nice, but walk away from that situation with the belief that somehow their problem is that they're too nice.

I've definitely met a few over the years, where a significant portion of their identity is based around that they are a 'nice guy' when other guys aren't 'nice guys'. Like they walk around in a bitter rage about the fact that other people have more than them, and someone along the line consoled them 'Hey, you're a nice guy, keep positive!' and they took that to mean that they are nice and everyone else is an asshole ergo the world rewards assholes and hates nice guys. When really its just that life is hard and often unfair, and while being nice is - well - nice it doesn't totally overcome that on its own, but if your whole thing is wanting to attract people (friends, girlfriends, good jobs, etc.), giving off a palpable aura of bitter rage and hatred for your fellow human is probably not helping either.

Ironically actual sociopaths tend to be pretty charming and charismatic, and are too busy walking around fucking people over to get what they want to worry about how fair life it.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ironically actual sociopaths tend to be pretty charming and charismatic,

No that is just a subset of sociopaths. I have known the non-charming type too...they are just easier to flag.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Like they walk around in a bitter rage about the fact that other people have more than them, and someone along the line consoled them 'Hey, you're a nice guy, keep positive!' and they took that to mean that they are nice and everyone else is an asshole ergo the world rewards assholes and hates nice guys.

Rollo had a better explanation for that (mind you, the post is from 2011, so he still uses terms like "AFC" here):

Most men are Betas. They opt for the nice, accommodating, supplicating side of this spectrum. For the majority, they’ve been socially conditioned to suppress any masculine impulse in favor of accommodating and identifying with women’s imperatives (or at least what they’re led to understand as their imperatives) at the risk of intimate rejection. It’s exactly this mindset, this Beta male default to the ‘Nice’ end of the spectrum that 85% of guys subscribe to, that makes the guy who leans into the ‘Jerk’ end of the spectrum attractive. [...] Now the irony of all this is that the AFC thinks that this situation is in reverse. He believes that Nice Guys are the anomaly in a sea of Jerks. Of course he believes this because it’s all his female-friends talk about; their “Jerk BFs”, and how Nice they are for being good listeners. So his self-image gets validated and he believes he’s unique and valuable for being “not-like-other-guys” and his patience and sensitivity will eventually pay off – which it very well could once the object of his obsession has had her fun (and possibly bred) with the Bad Boy.

[–]damaskrose 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

some guys can apparently not only think they're being nice when they're totally not being nice, but walk away from that situation with the belief that somehow their problem is that they're too nice.

Yep the female equivalent is the woman who thinks she's just TOO smart and successful and attractive, other women are jealous and men are intimidated, and that's why everyone hates her (not because she's a narcissist).

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think these people are just misguided. They're not bad people. If you just tell the nice guy that being nice is not attractive to women and you tell the smart and successful girl that being good looking is the most attractive thing to men then that would set them straight.

[–]Ultramegasaurus5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, the difference is nice guys are reviled nowadays while the high standards ex-slut career woman gets space in mainstream media to bitch about guys below her standards asking her out and/or guys who fit her standards only wanting sex.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is the correct answer, they aren't nice. The other comments about women loving to reject genuinely nice men are making me roll my eyes.

[–]darkmoon092 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit that's the correct answer. The whole "nice guys are actually butter manipulative assholes" meme, while true in some cases, is actually a strawman meant to deflect and justify women's tendency to reject genuine nice guys. It's basically a defense mechanism whenever women's contradictory claims/actual preferences are called out and out into the spotlight.

[–]the_calibre_cat2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ironically actual sociopaths tend to be pretty charming and charismatic, and are too busy walking around fucking people over to get what they want to worry about how fair life it.

To add to this, there are actually very nice, decent people who don't get any attention at all!

[–]chloapsoap0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Spot on

[–]Christian_Kong80% Natural Red6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's an overused strawman.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it would make everything a lot clearer if they were just called "nice" guys

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man13 points14 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

no, NiceGuys™ definitely are not sociopaths. if they were, they wouldn't flip out like that when they got rejected.

NiceGuys aren't really nice. they're not being nice because they're truly a good person. they're just acting nice because they think it will help them get laid. it's a secual strategy like RP, but unlike RP, the whole NiceGuy thing doesn't work well at all.

if they were truly being nice because they're a nice person, they wouldn't complain when girls aren't interested. any alleged "nice" guy who complains about women choosing jerks is NOT a truly nice person, they are one of the creepy neckbeard type of NiceGuy who are just faking it because they're trying to deceive girls and trick them into fucking them

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You're mistaking Nice Guys for White Knights here.

Nice guys in general (without tradesnarks or capitals) are nice because their standard MO is being inoffensive, non-intrusive, meek and introverted. They're simply being "nice" (in the broadest sense of the word) because trying to not antagonize other people comes easiest to them; and when they're told (or at least signaled) that being nice is a way to ingratiate themselves with women, they'll double down on that because it's more comfortable and doesn't require them to leave their comfort zone.

In other words: they aren't twisting themselves in order to be nice, but they can get legitimately frustrated when it turns out that they were hedging their bets on the wrong strategy.

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Real nice guys are like the guys from r/NMMNG. The nice guys over in r/niceguys are incel neckbeards who blame women for how much they suck.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Doesn't change that the nice guy trope is cancer - it's fucking toxic because it only serves to blindsight men and make life more convenient for women.

Because at the end of the day, all it does is putting nice guys in a double bind: if they dare to complain about their lack of success with women (and ask why they are doing worse than Henry), they're suddenly worse than Hitler. If they keep their questions to themselves and pretend they're contend with being perpetually friendzoned, all they do is putting women's mind at ease who are perpetuating the lie of the attractive nice guy or that friendzoning equals friendship.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

i think being nice might actually be the worst sexual strategy

[–]Orange_PaisleyOrange pill is best pill12 points13 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Because they say things like "But I'm a nice guy!" and "Nice guys always finish last!" But they aren't really nice, of course.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Making that subsection of "nice guys" the entire focus of the meme misses the original point

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

My favorite saying applies here as well: if those folks who complain about Nice GuysTM were lighting technicians in theaters, it would be embarassingly obvious that they're constantly casting the spotlight on the same 10 out of 1,000 people.

[–]storffish4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

well yeah, people love to get outraged and who is more outrage-inducing than a small minority of hypocrites complaining loudly? we can all sing kumbaya and set aside our differences because we agree that they're idiots. it's the same as guys who act as if there's a massive population of women spurning relationships until they're in their 30's. there are some, sure, but they're given an undue amount of attention because it's so obvious that their predicament is entirely self-induced. same with "nice guys."

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is an underrated comment.

[–]WestsideMoonWalkerChonks Pheel the Phonk5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep. It's the people that act as if being a nice person is somehow something special, pretty much.

[–]Cissnowflake2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is just the latest hamstering to make it okay to reject nice men.

“Nice guys are the real abusers” sounds better than “I choose men who aren’t nice and then am amazed when they are not nice.”

[–]ElbowStrike2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They're instinctively disgusted and turned off by men who are too high on agreeableness. Men high on agreeableness are also usually very nice people.

[–]eliechallita12 points13 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

That's pretty much the point: That the so-called Nice Guys who originally complained about being rejected more often than not turned out to be shitty people.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill8 points9 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Some of them did.

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP11 points12 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Seriously, this has got to be one of my bigger gripes with feminism.

Feminists: "Men need to express their feelings more openly and stop repressing themselves!"

Men: stop going stoic about relationships, and for the first time in history actually normalize complaining about loneliness to one another

Feminists: "OMFG NOT LIKE THAT!"

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've even done it as a social test with my female friends. Just casually open up to one of them by expressing your feelings and watch them do 1 of 3 things:

  • They'll talk about what a great guy you are. Translation - "You're out of my dating pool"
  • They'll give you advice on what you should do. Translation - "This works for me"
  • They'll reduce exposure and cut you out Translation - "You disgust me"

I don't care becuase I have no intentions of ever dating any of them. It's just comical to me what happens when you show women you feelings.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, me too.

...

Wait what

[–]chloapsoap0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

Feminists...aren’t the second group. You’re conflating women with feminists

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Feminists are the only group I hear complaining about it, and plenty of male feminists also decry any talk of "the friendzone" as sexual entitlement. It's pretty clearly a feminist thing, not a woman thing. And I say that as a full-on feminist. I just happen to disagree with many feminists on this issue.

[–]chloapsoap-1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

The friend zone is sexual entitlement. The sense of sadness that accompanies it isn’t something that should be scorned though, unless the person starts taking it out on other people.

If you’re saying that people refuse to empathize with rejected guys, then I’m not down with that. But the friend zone is what it is.

I’ve been “put in the friend zone” before. And I get really fucking upset about it too. But once I got past my emotions I realized that I wasn’t put anywhere and the person legitimately was just going on with their life. I felt entitled

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP3 points4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

I've only ever heard the term used between men to lament being gently rejected, and never once has it been accompanied by any statements or implications that the woman owed the man sex or any sort of attention whatsoever. It is nothing more than a whine.

But gender roles are deep, and even feminists are not immune. Males aren't allowed to whine by their gender roles, and whining will be interpreted as something else. The Hollywood hero-man doesn't complain about things that are nobody's fault but which upset him; no, when the stoic man speaks negatively about something it's because it's wrong. This is applied to the concept of "the friendzone", which creates this illusion that men are doing more than whining. And to be fair, some are, doubtlessly, as folks like Eliot Rodger show us. But I've been a sympathetic ear to my men friends about emotional issues for two decades now and never once have I heard anyone who used that term speak about sexual or romantic entitlement, or even imply anything to that effect.

From my perspective, it seems almost entirely like another iteration of traditional male gender roles being used to inhibit men from talking about the things which upset them or make them feel bad.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You know, i've thought about the "friendzone" meme quite a bit, and I think there's a serious miscommunication going on most of the time.

The classic script is as follows: guy and girl are friends. Guy asks girl out. Girl gently rejects him, wants to go on being friends. Guy is not so into this idea. Girl gets mad and calls him a NiceGuy, entitled, etc.

Now, from her perspective, the fact that he is not down to continue their friendship is a sign that all those times sending each other stupid gifs, all those bitchfests about their coworkers, all those late nights with the gang at the pub, were a ruse to get her to sleep with him, and now that the plan has failed, he's off to find a new mark. She may think this due to past experiences of guys trying to use her for sex, but she's still being really fucking dense.

Because from HIS perspective (which, for gender-social-roles reasons, he will NEVER say) is, "I really like this girl, and hanging out with someone you have hella strong unrequited feelings for is too painful to bear, so I'm going to back off, because this hurts too much."

They're talking past each other. Women aren't social wizards. Sometimes we're idiots, too.

Sincerely, A woman who strongly suspects she's being friendzoned by someone

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They're talking past each other. Women aren't social wizards. Sometimes we're idiots, too.

See, this is something I think needs to echo through the minds of every feminist and antifeminist. Women make mistakes, and even self-titled feminist women sometimes aren't as progressive as they can be, and need to be set straight. Like, my favorite is when feminist women try to assume that because I'm a guy with long hair that they can teach men tips and tricks about hair care that are basic shit off the internet. It's like, "I've had long hair for 23 years now, something tells me I don't need your femsplaining".

I think a lot of issues involve small instances of conservatism or regressivism from feminists, of which they're unaware. The bad part is how difficult it is for feminists to accept that a given man might have something to teach women about feminism.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bingo. And I dare to say that this scenario is far more common than the Nice GuyTM who completely acts out and gets into her face. Though I have to add that if a woman knows a guy is her orbiter, is taking advantage of his affection while retaining plausible deniability is far from blameless if the guy does act out at some point.

That said, I think that the Nice Guy-trope is alluring to women not only to women who legitimately feel hurt if a guy cuts off contact, but also to those who took advantage of him but don't want to be the bad guy.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And to be fair, some are, doubtlessly, as folks like Eliot Rodger show us.

Eliot Rodgers is a bad example because the guy was legitimately mentally ill. And by that I don't mean "merely" on the spectrum (something that probably plagues most incels and FA dudes), but actually autistic and narcissistic. I.e. being pretty much unable to establish an even remotely normal relationship with other people, let alone women (from what I know of the case, he was a perpetual loner who always kept to himself and never really talked to anybody), while simultaneously being unable to entertain the idea that the problem might be he himself.

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. The term seems like it might be picked up by people who are actually externalizing blame, but that externalization of blame is not inherent to the usage of the term.

[–]chloapsoap1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I’ve only ever heard the term used between men to lament being gently rejected, and never once has it been accompanied by any statements or implications that the woman owed the man sex or any sort of attention whatsoever.

It doesn’t have to have that implication explicitly, but the fact that you’re complaining about it is the implication in and of itself.

I don’t think the friend zone is an exclusively male experience though. I think it affects men more than women, but I’ve been rejected and felt the same way before. Regardless of who is experiencing it, it’s all the same. It ultimately stems from a sense of entitlement whether you realize it in the moment or not.

Males aren’t allowed to whine by their gender roles, and whining will be interpreted as something else.

I think the way it’s being whined about is important. When people phrase it with friend zone jargon, they’re often putting the blame on the other person rather than acknowledging that it’s just them having feelings that aren’t returned. There’s a distinct difference imo

From my perspective, it seems almost entirely like another iteration of traditional male gender roles being used to inhibit men from talking about the things which upset them or make them feel bad.

I’ll give you this one. I’m sure that plays some part in it as well

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

the fact that you’re complaining about it is the implication in and of itself.

Wait, are you saying that any sadness that comes from rejection stems from entitlement?

[–]chloapsoap1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No. I was worried it would come across like that.

What I mean is if you’re blaming the other person for the way you’re feeling then I’d say that’s entitlement. But just feeling sadness alone isn’t bad and doesn’t make you entitled.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think the friend zone is an exclusively male experience though. I think it affects men more than women, but I’ve been rejected and felt the same way before. Regardless of who is experiencing it, it’s all the same. It ultimately stems from a sense of entitlement whether you realize it in the moment or not.

Women can't really relate to the friendzone, even in the rare cases it's happening to them; because there's a world of a difference between being friendzoned once and being friendzoned as a rule - i.e. when your entire romantic experience consists of the other gender communicating to you "yeah, you're good enough to be kept around, but not for more".

The most similar experience is rather that of a woman who is able to have sex with men without ever managing to upgrade that to a relationship.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

You're not a shitty person just because there's a person you only want sex and or romance from and that's the only reason you associate with that person.

[–]Orange_PaisleyOrange pill is best pill4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't make you a shitty person. Calling girls who aren't receptive to you bitches and sluts or otherwise acting like a toddler whose parents didn't buy him a toy on an outing makes you a shitty person.

[–]eliechallita7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, you're not. I'll be the first to admit that unrequited attraction sucks, and that there's nothing wrong with just wanting sex from someone.

You become a shitty person, however, if you think that you're owed sex for basic niceness, if you get hostile and toxic when people turn you down gently, and if you decide to ignore their NO and pretend that you're longer thirsting after them when in truth you're just hiding your intentions until they give in.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think the guys feel owed sex. They think niceness is supposed to turn a woman on, so they're like "Cmon why you bein a tease? My niceness penis is bigger than your bf so you should want me more."

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You become a shitty person, however, if you think that you're owed sex for basic niceness,

This is almost never be the case, regardless of the guys who get into the faces of girls they barely know when they're rejected being constantly trotted up on the internet.

I dare to say that most of the resentment is coming from guys who heavily invested (emotions, time, resources etc.) in a relationship they wanted to upgade to a romantic one, with the woman (usually after having tacitly or even explicitly encouraged the guy to invest heavily) ultimately rejecting the guy. In other word: covert contracts with two participants.

[–]diffdedbedGreen Eyed Devil8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

/r/niceguys is just another hate sub. I used to be subbed there but gave up as it was less about sociopaths and more about dudes who just sucked with women and making fun of them for it. I read something after I unsubbed where they were trying to get to the sociopath types again, dunno if they succeeded and don't care.

That being said "nice guys" in real life are just that very nice guys but they feel sort of unworthy of women so that comes out and is totally unsexy. So they get friend zoned and as much as people like to talk about the friend zone I've seen it too many times as a 20 something with friends.

These are the nice guys finishing last, the sociopaths are just fakers thinking they can act nice to get laid. Its like the male feminists busted for sexual harassment.

[–]bonusfruit7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The sooner people accept that they just mean ugly guys, the sooner people can stop pretending that mild mannered men are secretly evil

[–]the_calibre_cat3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean, some of the dudes on /r/niceguys - true to the point of the existence of /r/niceguys - are decidedly not nice guys. Seriously I don't think any group of men on Earth can make me feel more embarrassed for my gender than the "nuclear meltdown upon rejection" guys. Seriously, get a fucking grip. I know rejection sucks, be a man.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

But how many nice guys actually turn out to be sociopaths? That is a great fearmongering meme but it's not as common as women and white knights say they are. Most nice guys are just frustrated that they're being outcompeted by actual criminals, cheaters and beaters.

[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

From the womens point of view, they only see the ones that turn sour.

The ones that say "Aw, shucks. I guess she didn't like me" and go sit quietly in the corner are forgotten.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good point. Very good point.

[–]Zanajin 1 points [recovered]  (4 children) | Copy Link

Eh, maybe...there are ways that nature says Do Not Touch. In many cases a loner who keeps to himself and collects crap and lives with Anime posters all over the walls but no actual friends is providing clear danger signs to women. Yes I am describing someone I know. Yes he self-describes as a sociopath. Yes he was stalking me. But he tried to claim he was rescuing me...see the problem?

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But even if he didn't stalk anyone or do anything else sociopathic... would it matter?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hell yes it would!

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps for you.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because that guy is clearly the norm.

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

Most of the guys who are described as a "nice guy" by their female peers are doing these girls favors in an effort to get laid. Those guys become frustrated when they find out that doing those favors wont get them laid.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What's wrong with wishing to get laid? Is it only ok when a woman does this? Oh wait, they can all get laid easily

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

What's wrong with wishing to get laid?

Nothing. So called nice guys are using the wrong tactic in my opinion. Being a nice guy is not the right tactic to getting laid. Being a nice guy is a tactic for making friends. That's why they end up in the friend zone.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Aren't you being disingenous? People tend to say "they just wanna get laid" as if it was something wrong for them to wish for. Just like you did.

[–]Mattcwu 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

in an effort to get laid
I didn't mean any innuendo with that. I just meant they are making an effort to get laid. There's nothing wrong with making an effort to get laid. However, doing favors for women is an effective method of going about it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

However, doing favors for women is an effective method of going about it.

On contrary, it isn't.

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, this is one of the areas where I genuinely split from feminists. As someone who studies language and communication, I can't get behind the idea of using a term to characterize something which, taken literally, means the exact opposite. In my opinion the "scare quotes make it okay" crowd are responsible in part for pushing a lot of confused young men into misogyny because of their simple unwillingness to change a practice of speech, which seems utterly hypocritical considering the people this rhetoric comes from.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In case you didn't already read Radicalizing the Romanceless:

It was wrong of me to say I hate poor minorities. I meant I hate Poor Minorities! Poor Minorities is a category I made up that includes only poor minorities who complain about poverty or racism.

No, wait! I can be even more charitable! A poor minority is only a Poor Minority if their compaints about poverty and racism come from a sense of entitlement. Which I get to decide after listening to them for two seconds. And If they don’t realize that they’re doing something wrong, then they’re automatically a Poor Minority.

I dedicate my blog to explaining how Poor Minorities, when they’re complaining about their difficulties with poverty or asking why some people like Paris Hilton seem to have it so easy, really just want to steal your company’s money and probably sexually molest their co-workers. And I’m not being unfair at all! Right? Because of my new definition! I know everyone I’m talking to can hear those Capital Letters. And there’s no chance whatsoever anyone will accidentally misclassify any particular poor minority as a Poor Minority. That’s crazy talk! I’m sure the “make fun of Poor Minorities” community will be diligently self-policing against that sort of thing. Because if anyone is known for their rigorous application of epistemic charity, it is the make-fun-of-Poor-Minorities community!

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, see, this is pretty much spot on my same criticism. You can't take a phrase, scare quote it, and expect people to not associate it at all with the actual meaning. Even if you 're not just trying to hide your own negative agenda, and are genuine about your usage of the term, you'll constantly seem like someone with such a negative agenda to people who haven't been taught better.

"Nice Guys" and "Friendzone" are two of the issues which I disagree with many feminists about.

[–]EdwardBarnes19132 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

To feminist/misandrists nice guys HAVE to be evil. Otherwise KABOOM!!!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nice guy is one who wants female closiness, not necessarily sex. I know in my teens when I was a bloop sex didn't even cross my mind, I just wanted women to like me and experience first love, first touch and first kiss. It's only angry bloops and feminists on this sub so paint nice guys as assholes who just want to get in woman's pants. That's not even a strawman, that's a lie. They act nice because they been told and conditioned that being assertive is wrong. And you later get bitter redpillers who come to realize that women do not appreciate nice stuff from men, doesn't matter he's alpha or beta. Briffaults law is true.

Women like guys who do not give a fuck about woman's feelings. And that's the main point which differentiates nice guys from "jerks".

Nice guys want to please women, jerks want to please themselves. And that's what RP teaches men and that's what women here do not like. That men are being taught of this power to be assertive.

[–]Ultramegasaurus1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nice guy is one who wants female closiness, not necessarily sex

B-but the feminists always tell me nice guys only want sex from women!!1

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know I know. Haven't I been a nice guy myself (and still am to a degree) I wouldn't know it either. But I knew and still know tons of men like that, who just want a female touch, to accepted as normal. Sex isn't even on their radar. And those guys are true nice guys. I mean, nice guy who need RP to wake them the fuck up.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Look at the way the word is used and that gives the word its definition.

[–]washington_breadstixM'gtow1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Nice guy" has become a term of art in the sphere of dating/sex/gender issues. The whole point is that it has taken on a different meaning. Saying "nice guy" is shorter than saying "guy whose nature is to create covert sexual contracts with women." I don't see why you insist that it needs to be read literally.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When a woman says "he's a such a nice guy" is often quite a different concept of when a guy says "I am a nice guy".

[–]aretournerPPD = mimophant party2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Wasn't the point of the term "nice guy" originally that guys who liked girls and were nice to them just because they were nice were often less successful than attractive guys who were less nice?

No, dude. The term has always been sarcastic. It's easier to use in actual conversation, where you can hear the sarcasm in someone's tone. Online you will sometimes (but not always) see people putting single quotes around it etc. to make it clear they mean it in the widely-used sarcastic way.

This term has basically become it's sarcastic usage. I don't ever hear anyone using 'nice guy' to mean an actually nice male human. It almost always just means some dickhead who thinks he's nice but isn't (for the reasons you've pointed out).

TL;DR WHOOSH

[–]couldbemage6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You use for "always" and "has become".

Can't be both.

Just saying.

Fwiw, the latter is accurate. The phrase was used for it's literal meaning in my youth.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller12 points13 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Totally opposite experience here. Only on Internet do I see people using the term sarcastically. In real life, people use nice guy to mean an overly pleasant, non assertive male.

[–]UnconfidenceSocial Anarchist - BP5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So glad I'm not the only one who notices this. It's so obvious that this is term is a really bad vehicle for communication.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

not a sociopath, just a self-absorbed insecure asshole pretending to be nice.

original nice guy deconstruction came from those funny gals at heartless bitches international.

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Wow...I have not been to that website in ten years, began to think I dreamed it up. It touches me that someone even remembers HBI and its snarky answers to letters. Wow.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I haven't been there in ages. But these youngin's here don't know how the whole niceguyTM phenomena got coined.

Credit where credit is due.

The snarky ladies of HBI will always have a place in my heart.

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[–]JustForPPDChemistry > All7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

"Radicalizing the romanceless" already addresses this.

[–]_Neon_Shadow_1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

"Radicalizing the romanceless" already addresses this.

I need to check this out. The title alone hooked me.

[–]JustForPPDChemistry > All2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's definitely worth the read and, in my opinion, dismantles the entire "nice guy" very well.

[–]_Neon_Shadow_0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

So I just finished reading it, and ... man oh man, what a good read. I'm upset I didn't find this sooner. You got any other recommendations?

[–]JustForPPDChemistry > All0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately nothing like this one.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Lots of terms seem to become meaningless around here.

Turns out that here "dating" is actually a synonym for "casually screwing around trying to win the lottery."

[–]SerpentCypher3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I get confused about that. I've seen people say things like "I'm faithful when I'm in a relationship, but if I'm just dating a guy then I'll still casually see and fuck other guys until we've had the exclusivity talk."

Now i'm not old (still firmly in my twenties) but I thought dating someone and being in a relationship with them were basically the same thing. I also didn't realise you have no obligation to be exclusive to someone until you both explicitly say so. I assumed exckusivity was implied when y'know, you are actively in a relationship with someone.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I get confused about that. I've seen people say things like "I'm faithful when I'm in a relationship, but if I'm just dating a guy then I'll still casually see and fuck other guys until we've had the exclusivity talk."

Rest assured, this is not how normal people (or certainly relationship worthy people) date. Mixing fucking around and dating is a huge turn off for most people. Someone posted a link to "top dealbreakers" around here and "seeing other people" (or something like that) was right at the top. This was a large scale survey. And hilariously enough many people on this particular forum didn't think that "seeing other people" was a problem. Funny huh?

Now i'm not old (still firmly in my twenties) but I thought dating someone and being in a relationship with them were basically the same thing. I also didn't realise you have no obligation to be exclusive to someone until you both explicitly say so. I assumed exckusivity was implied when y'know, you are actively in a relationship with someone.

You're technically under no obligation, but that is just how people do it and with good reason. Having someone you're developing feelings for having sexual or romantic contact with someone else is usually repulsive. Extremely repulsive. Most people I know (I think you can find some research or survey to support this) usually didn't even go on dates with people unless they were really into them, or they went on "get to know each other" dates which usually didn't even end with a make out. There was never some weird juggling act where one or both parties were actively trying to date or just screw other people. That just sounds like asking for conflict of interests, drama and also sounds like it's really time consuming for people with other crap to do in their life.

I'm under the impression over the last few months of being here that the less attractive people (with fewer options) who have developed insecurities for that reason (or others) seem to think that a "crapshoot approach" to meeting a long-term partner is a good thing (where they try to "spin plates" or some such stupid idea) yet not a single lasting relationship I know in my social circle started like that. Not a single one. They are just super insecure about losing one partner so they always want backups because they have no real attraction built with these people they date so of course many of them flake or bail.

[–]NeedingAdvice860 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You have to realize the makeup of this forum.....

Very high n-count women and low n-count STEM dudes.....which is very different than society at large.

So in essence, this is representative of their operandi in dating..the women were out fucking a new dude from clubs\bars\tinder every weekend, there was really not much dating going on in their world (why waste money on a date when you can just go out with homies, let them spend their own money on food\drinks, then take them home and fuck), then either because they aged out of the prime SMV and were no longer getting the attention of the hottest dudes at the bars\clubs or they became FWBs with some one of the random dudes which transitioned into a relationship... The remainder of the women are actually pretty unsocial who cobbled together just enough at some point to land a guy, then shut down interacting with other guys totally and now spend their time here raging against guys who actually want to approach random girls and learn how to socialize with girls.

The other dudes have no real relationship experience to talk about...it is mostly theory. Thrown in are the wannabes who want to come across as slayer\players, so they pile on the low n-count dudes with insults to virtue signal their "alpha-ness". Some are the duides who spend all their time roaming the clubs\bars trying to get a few of the regulars but are really just bitter about the quality of women they attract so they take it out on the STEM guys.

The vast majority of women are not slutting around clubs\bars every weekend and are indeed going on dates and perhaps parties where they look to discover a quality guy who ultimately they end up sleeping with or dating.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

"Sociopath", for instance.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm sure the armchair diagnoses are plenty...

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

We're on Reddit.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

If there's no ring on it, you're playing the lottery.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

What are you on about?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

lottery

What are you on about?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

What does have anything to do with what I said about terms losing their meaning?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

It didn't lose its meaning. It never had a defined meaning in the first place. The only thing that did is marriage.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

It's so obvious that "dating" refers to seeking traditional (exclusive/monogamous) relationships which lead to marriage or often function just like a marriage without the legal paperwork (which often means seeing people who you believe closely fit the bill of your future desired partner). If 80% or even 50.1% of people assume that's the definition, that's in fact the definition of it. This is like discussing what "rain" means or something... sigh.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Even your own explanation is rife with contradictions. No one is confused about rain.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

My definition has no contradictions or you would have pointed them out. LOL. Try harder.

[–]the_calibre_cat0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

And now there's no fault divorce! But yeah, marriage is, like, still totally different and meaningful!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I swear. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean, really, the cure for all of this is just stop being nice and courteous and giving basic decency and respect to women in general. They asked for it, give it to them.

[–]neuk_mijn_oogkasVulva-and-tit-hating non-monogamous lesbian loner0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a term that has gotten tainted; those people often refer to themselves as nice guy.

I remember being like 20 years old and describing my sibling as the quintessential "nice guy" trope from cinema. This was before the term got tainted and it was in a positive light. My (male) sibling had a lot of female friends and was very much there for thm and their problems and had no real ambition or sexual feelings for any of them it seems. They weren't at all bitter about the idea that those friends had lovers even though they openly considred many of them awful people. They were completely fine with that role and otherwise weren't short on their own sexual outlets anyway.

But at one point people caught on to the idea that people are actually atttacted to "jerks" and not to nice guys which I believe to be true to an extend and a lot of jerks who were just unattractive started to use that as an excuse that they couldn't get laid due to being too nice so the term got tainted.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But at one point people caught on to the idea that people are actually atttacted to "jerks" and not to nice guys which I believe to be true to an extend and a lot of jerks who were just unattractive started to use that as an excuse that they couldn't get laid due to being too nice so the term got tainted.

I think it's more that those jerks who used it as an excuse were totally jazzed up and turned into a trope by women (especially feminists) to avoid the cognitive dissonance that comes with rejecting nice guys. Basically "if you complain about the rejection (or just cut off ties with me because you aren't allowed to be hurt by the rejection), you were never nice and just wanted to use me for sex; if you don't complain, stay in my friendzone instead and put on a stepford smile, everything is awesome because I still got 100% of the friendship service with 0% of the bad conscience".

[–]prostate-apostatespectacle beta0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When people yalk about niceguys in RL they are usually talking about dopes and religious types who do well .

[–]toasterchild0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

People still talk about nice guys who are really just nice people but there is also a sarcastic "nice guys" label which realy means covert narcissist who is a self proclaimed nice guy but really has a ton of entitlement and a huge victim complex. He's the victim of all women blah blah.

It would be so much easier if people used the terms that already existed for these people instead of pretending is a new thing. They do seem more prevalent since the internet came along but it's probably more that they are the type who are drawn to complaining in comment sections.

[–]SyrusDrake0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the term got a bit diluted in the recent past and has thus lost its usefulness because it's now describing a multitude of wildly different personalities.
There are Nice Guys™, the kind of people that you find on /r/niceguys and who people rightfully make fun of. They will feign niceness and at the slightest provocation, be it rejection or just a reply that's taking a bit too long, explode into violent anger. I think most of them are narcissists and/or suffer from some other sort of genuine mental illness. Nice Guys™ aren't really manipulative since they can rarely hide their true colors long enough. They don't really "deserve" the title "nice" because they're "not nice" in ways that nobody needs explained.

Then there's the kind of nice guy that Robert Glover describes in his book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". In short, those guys are somewhat manipulative because they do things not out of altruism or compassion but to get their needs met. This isn't malign per se. They're just following social programming they picked up during their youth. Nice Guys sensu Glover can often be described as "doormats" because they will put their needs last because that's how their programming works. It's a sort of contract: "I am nice and agreeable and will do what you ask of me and you reward me with affection."
When they get angry, it's more out of desperation because the other party "broke the contract" and they don't know how else to get affection, respect or whatever else they desire. But other than Nice Guys™, who see rejection as an attack on their person, these kinds of nice guys will more see it as a rejection of their actions, the "payment" they offered for affection. Glover's nice guys need not necessarily become aggressive at the person who rejects them, their anger can discharge in the form of auto-aggression as well. And this is the kind of nice guy that does something that's "actually not nice" if you take a closer look because their niceness is transactional. However, it is important to remember that this is rarely a conscious act! Again, it's programming, it's just how the person was socialized. Those guys don't deserve ridicule, because most of them simply don't know any better.

Lastly, there is what I will call the "confused nice guy" (CNG) for sake of clarity. Both kinds of nice guys previously discussed can be CNGs as well but a CNG need not necessarily behave like any of the aforementioned kinds. Their frustration usually isn't directed at specific people but more general situations. Importantly, their confusion and/or frustration does NOT stem from the idea that niceness should get you sex. Most CNGs understand perfectly well that more is needed. No, their confusion comes from the observation that less nice people do better than they do. They understand that their niceness alone will not get them laid but surely it shouldn't lower their chances either?
Many of them have skewed and/or unhelpful ideas of how to "respect" women. I know because I'm one of those people. They're acting completely platonically all the time. But they don't do it in a manipulative fashion. They don't adjust their behavior in ways they think will get them laid. This is genuinely who they are. They just do what they were taught is right and respectful and will cause things to "just happen". And when things, unsurprisingly, don't "just happen", they see guys who flirtingly tease women and who aren't ashamed to be overtly sexual, all of which are behaviors that the CNGs were taught were "disrespectful". So they become frustrated because they act exactly like they were taught to and yet the guys who act exactly like they were taught not to act are far more successful with women. Those guys genuinely act nice but boring. And most of them are more sad and confused rather than angry or if they are, they are angry because they were basically lied to.

This got a bit overly long. The tldr, more or less, is that pretty much everyone talks about a different phenomenon when they talk about "Nice Guys", all of which are fairly different but grouped together under the same name.

[–]KikiYuyuPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a mix of irony, and the fact that those vitriolic assholes often label themselves as "nice".

[–]GuyWithTheStalker0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Hooooly shit, man...

It looks like that sub uses a sarcastic title.

Yes, there are a few fake/staged posts on there, as well as posts from both users who've encountered phoney "nice guys" and users who honestly - And I know this sounds hokey as shit... - feel a little better about themselves by putting someone else down, but I really don't think the sub is trying to make some kind of broader social statement along the lines of "No men are actually nice."

Remain. Calm.

[–]Ramses_IVoverdosed on all the pills[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I never said that anybody was trying to make such a statement. I was just wondering why a term that, in my experience, was not originally negative - literal nice guys who just weren't very attractive or remarkable and didn't have fulfilling love lives as a result - came to be almost exclusively associated with its sarcastic meaning referring to straight up cunty guys who think that they are the centre of the universe.

I remember when it just referred to the kind of guy who wasn't a bad person by any means but had few distinguishing features other than "they're nice I guess." Yeah that sub is obviously the more sarcastic use of the term, but it's come to be the almost exclusive usage these days.

[–]GuyWithTheStalker0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I never said that anybody was trying to make such a statement.

Nbd, man.

I was just wondering why a term... came to be almost exclusively associated with its sarcastic meaning?

I don't have access to software which would show me sentiment analysis for the term, "nice guys," over time or some kind of public opinion, so solely for the sake of expediency and this discussion, I'll just go ahead and assume that the term does indeed now have mostly a negative meaning.

Let's begin to go down this rabbit hole by first putting the shoe on the other foot...

You obviously seem like you should just cut the crap and settle down with a "nice girl," so tell me, where the fuck would you even find a "nice girl"? Have you not yet found one? Why not? Are you stupid, do you think that they are few and far between, where are they, how do they act, what do they do, have you ever met one in real life, and how does this all make you feel and act?

Also, some more food for thought: I once took an evening class with a guy who sold houses during the day. He was nice enough to tell the entire group one night about what his strategy was for selling a haunted house. (Hint: It didn't involve saying, "THIS HOUSE IS FUCKING HAUNTED!!")

Edit: Also, watch your mouth. 😜

...straight up cunty guys...

[–]peterlongcLove.Is.The.Drug-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

the fear is rejection by the object of desire, if it is first hopeful then it creates subservient behavior - "nice guy". if that subservience is found to be unrewarded/rejected then that fear is now 'realized'. this results in anger first, then denial... etc. read stages of grief psychology to understand more. this dynamic plays out in myriad ways in our lives not just male/female power struggle so it's good to get a grip on IMO. this is what Star Wars is about centrally. bravery in the face of fear and acceptance of failure with continued perseverance and faith is a possible solution.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's because they're not making their intentions clear, and then when they express that they are interested in you, they get annoyed that you don't reciprocate.

[–]Eartherry-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It delves into the philosophical foundations of personhood and free will. Those we consider people we treat as though have agency. We ask for what we want and fully accept whatever answer. It gets lumped in with sociopathy because they lack the ability to see others as anything other than objects to be used.

"Nice guys" won't ask for what they want, de facto refusing an unfavorable answer. His presence in her life is his deliberate attempt to manipulate her into trusting him, an untrustworthy act in and of itself. He can reveal his true intentions anytime but he'd risk the continued exposure to her.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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