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I've talked about this in here a few times over the years but I don't think I ever made an actual post about it. Bear with me, this is going to get really nerdy, but I think it's interesting and relevant to PPD.

Welcome to my TED Talk. Today I would like to talk about 50 Shades of Grey, and how it actually says a lot about female sexuality, but not for the reasons most people think it does.

I've heard it a thousand times. "Look at the sales of 50 Shades of Grey! It's about bondage and women being tied up and spanked and dominated and it's the best selling book ever! That means all women want to be tied up and spanked and dominated!"

To make my argument against this commonly held misconception of what is actually going on, we're gonna need to take a few steps back. Buckle in, I'm about to take you down a deep rabbit hole. My apologies in advance.

First and foremost, I would put good money on the fact that many people who hold the above opinion about 50SOG have not read the three books. Not the movies, the books, and honestly I don't think that many people have seen the movies either. I only did because I come from the world I'm about to take you through, and the whole thing is fascinating to me.

To anyone who doesn't know, 50 Shades of Grey was a fanfiction before it was a published book. Specifically, it was Twilight "alternate universe" fanfic, in which the characters were all plucked the original stories setting (high school, a small town in Seattle, woods and shit I guess) and put into a new one, in this case a plot where a rich playboy falls for plain jane and he also has a secret rich guy sex dungeon tee hee. This type of setting swap is a popular genre in fanfiction. Maybe in an Avengers AU (alternate universe) story all the hero teams are rock bands! Captain America is the lead singer, Hulk is the drummer obviously. Who would Tony Stark be, the brooding bass player? Oh, Pepper Potts could be a groupie who falls in love with him. Nick Fury could be their manager! The Guardians of the Galaxy are the opening band... I'm just making this shit up right now but you get my point it's fun, and these sort of "alternate universe" things are super commonplace in fanfiction. All the character's personalities and relationships to each other are roughly the same, their jobs and circumstances are just different and it's a fun "what if" experiment.

So we have the Twilight characters in this new setting. Anastasia is obvious Bella, Christian is Edward. Ana's vaguely ethnic friend who likes her but obviously doesn't a chance with her at all was Jacob, so we clearly see where the author landed on the great Edward/Jacob divide within the fandom. To anyone only vaguely familiar with Twilight, Edward was the hot vampire and Jacob was the hot werewolf and all four books are just this hemming and hawing over which one the main character is gonna get with. And even though it was pretty obvious it was gonna be the vampire the fans took incredibly firm, vocal stances about which boy deserved the girl. Anyways.

So the original audience of 50SOG were Twilight fans who already were familiar with the characters, more than familiar they were superfans who not only lived and breathed the source material, they were also readers of fanfiction and had pairing preferences and ways they thought the characters should be represented, and what I'm trying to get at is that they were heavily emotionally invested in the characters, as was the author of the story. So 50SOG was written with that built into the prose, the absolute given of the deep emotional connection between the two leads, the insane sexual chemistry between them even from the get-go. That is implied from the very first time the characters meet, and it is deliberately slow burned to their first time having sex, which is also Ana's (or Bella's, depending on which version you're reading) first time, so it's like super special. Keep in mind that fanfiction is written by women for women, and those women are often lonely, inexperienced, super nerdy and socially awkward in addition to being super horny. They don't want to have meaningless/casual sex, they're often but not always too weird to have or want actual relationships, so they mostly have online social lives where their friends are other fanfic authors and they just talk and blog and create all day about whatever show/book/movie they're into. They get their sexual jollies off via fanfiction.

So even though 50SOG is not very well written (in my opinion) it is still crafted to make women horny in a way a female author from the culture of fanfiction understands. It is a slow burn. They don't have sex until maybe halfway through the book? There's lots of build-up, tension, flirting, teasing, suggestive language used in the prose to make your brain go there. The guy is crazy about her, and even though he's an asshole lots of the time it is an underlying surety that he is utterly devoted to the female lead.

So here's the funny part. All the marketing, all the buzz, it's about the hot bondage stuff, right? Here's the actual plot of all three 50SOG books/movies. So ~SPOILERS~ I guess after this lol

Ana is a journalist. She's just some average girl (even though she's portrayed very beautifully, she has super low self esteem and it's supposed to be both flattering and relateable to the reader who is assumed to be imagining herself as the lead) and she's a virgin at 21 and for whatever reason she's been chosen to interview this hot young billionaire. He has some actual job title I'm sure but I don't remember it and it doesn't matter, he never actually does any work, his job only comes into play as a plot device. Even though she has no idea why and the reader isn't given a good explanation either, Christian becomes obsessed with her. He's fascinated by her. Finds her to be the most beautiful, interesting woman in the entire world, and it's established he could have literally anyone, but he wants her. That's the fantasy, same as Twilight. He's impossibly desirable, she's clunky and nervous, but he must have her, he must. He flies her to Paris for dinner, they helicopter around and shit, he wines and dines the fuck out of her to impress her with his wealth and status. My goodness, she's just a poor college student/young professional with a roommate in a small apartment who thinks Olive Garden is fancy! And now she's being taken out to do rich people stuff and she's just swept off her feet.

But oh no, she's worried that he'll hate that she's a virgin. In fact he isn't stoked about it. Because as he explains to her during that conversation, he's into bondage, and he can only enjoy sex when the woman's tied up and stuff, he's so naughty. She kinda freaks out and he ultimately caves and says he'll do non bondage sex with her, but only to take her virginity. After that, if she wants to be with him, she has to do it his way. So she's really into him and really wants to have sex with him so even though she's not interested in the bondage stuff, she says yes anyways and they have normal sex, hoping that maybe he'll see how nice it is and be okay with normal sex with her. Nope, he still wants the bondage stuff. So basically the bulk of the first book is him laying out his terms, he wants her to sign a "consent contract", a list of things he's interested in doing to her and she says yes or no to each one then after she's signed he's allowed to do any of the yes stuff whenever he wants. She's so naive that when she's reading the list, she doesn't know what a butt plug is, tee hee. So they don't actually do any of the stuff, she just has anxiety about it all and as she starts to get cold feet and pull away he gets freaked out and aggressive which makes her pull away more and that goes on for a while. Then the first book/movie culminates with her being like "Fine! I'll give you the bondage sex since that's what you want if it will shut you up!" basically. And he "ties her up" and "spanks her" in the most vanilla, wannabe BDSM scene ever and she freaks the fuck out and runs out of the house crying, end of book.

Then in the second book she's still mad at him but they ultimately start seeing each other again because of that implied, constant, unyielding, never-in-question-by-the-reader connection and chemistry between them, so they're obviously not going to stay apart. What kind of Twilight fanfic would not have Bella and Edward make up after a fight, especially only a third of the way through the story. So she doesn't take him back because she ~craves his dominance~, it's because the plot calls for it, as does the nature of the medium. In this relationship, they deeply love each other beneath any fight, so it's understood to not be an abusive dynamic, because the reader knows Edward isn't a bad guy, he isn't in the Twilight canon, so he wouldn't be here either. Unfortunately, this doesn't translate well, and it can potentially give the reader a super fucked up view of relationship dynamics. As well as BDSM. As I said in another thread today, 50SOG is about a horny but inexperienced nerdy girl's idea of what she thinks BDSM is like, based on I don't know, other fanfiction probably. So in 50SOG it's actually all wrong and dysfunctional. A good Dom would never try to coerce someone into the scene who isn't already into it. Consent is the most important part of BDSM, there are rules that have been well thought out and argued by the community into place over the years. His "consent contract" would never fly, simply because she's being pressured into it. I don't actually think she ever actually signed it? Or if she did one of them eventually rips it up? Something like that.

But moving on, the second book mentions his tortured past. It turns out he was sexually abused as a teenager, an older woman (I think a friend of his adoptive mom's) seduces him and makes him her submissive in a pretty unhealthy relationship. He doesn't consider it abuse though, and he thinks he turned out totally normal, even though he's now a sadist who can't get off without what he considers bondage sex and wants all of his girlfriends to sign consent contracts and he gets super unhinged and jealous and aggro about stuff. So Ana learns all this about him and starts to understand why he is the way he is and now she's more willing to do bondage-y stuff maybe because she now sees it as an outlet for his trauma and a way to feel like he's in control of things. He opens up to her. He makes himself vulnerable. Oh and there's villains floating around, either women who want to be with Christian and are jealous of Ana and hate her and fuck with her, or other men who also want Ana and Christian has to save her from their unwanted advances. Like, Ana's boss becomes obsessed with her and stalks her and at one points grabs at her and she gets him fired for sexual harassment. There's never any real actual threat, all conflicts are resolved quickly after they arise, and the potential rivals are there to be villains, not ever actually tempt one of the leads away from the other. Their devotion to each other is never in question, and the quickly arising mini conflicts are excuses for them to rescue and/or worry about each other.

The final book/movie starts with Ana's dream wedding and Christian buys her a big mansion and they have a wonderful honeymoon. Just as alluring and satisfying to the implied female reader as the sex scenes. It is provider porn. There's a few more conflicts that pop up and are immediately resolved. Oh my god I almost forgot the best part, the main conflict of the final book is that she's pregnant, and he gets pissed off about it when he finds out. Because apparently these idiots got married without talking about kids first and she just assumed he'd want kids but he doesn't, not for a while anyways. Because, as he explains, he knows he would be jealous of the baby and doesn't want to share her. But she just assumed without talking to him that since they're married now, she should go off birth control, so surprise, she's pregnant. The ex boss who sexually harassed her comes back as the final villain in this one and tries to blackmail her and ends up kicking her in her pregnant stomach. When that happens Christian is overwhelmed with emotion and fear that she'll lose the baby and he realizes he wants to be a dad after all. He subdues the villain until he can be arrested and Ana is magically okay, so is the baby, no consequences and yay, now Christian wants to be a dad! And at some point Christian breaks down and says he's a broken person and he hates that he gets off on hurting women and he doesn't want to do it anymore and he'll even sub for her if she wants, just please please don't leave him. Ana ultimately gets everything she wants and lives happily ever after. Oh and it turned out the villain ex boss not only was obsessed with Ana, he was also separately obsessed with Christian because they were both orphans together and Christian got adopted into a wealthy family and he didn't. Even though he also went on the become a successful billionaire playboy. Brilliant writing.

In conclusion, women do not like 50 Shades because of bondage, they like it because it is the ultimate shy female fantasy. An average girl tames an Alpha playboy, she brings him to heel despite his desire to dominate her and he one by one caves to her every demand, giving up his player lifestyle, his sex dungeon requirement for their intimacy, his fear of commitment, his mommy issues, his stance on kids. She gets out of him everything he swore he would never give: normal sex, marriage, a big house to raise a family in and fatherhood. He submits to her. The bondage stuff is just the backdrop, merely the flavoring on top of this much deeper, larger, overarching female fantasy. By the third book/movie it's more of a background element than a driving part of the plot. Readers are much more invested at that point about the baby and will Christian ever come around and see things her way?

Yes, he will. He always does after all.

edit: This post has been up for a few days now but I was rereading it and I got to thinking about the “Jacob” character, and how funny the fanfiction aspect of this all is to me. So I’m adding this for any latecomers because it explains part of why some of the auxiliary characters and plot lines are so hilariously weird and bad in the 50 Shades series.

The only characters who really matter in the story are Ana and Christian. Everyone else are just weird fleeting background characters with little depth. The previously mentioned vaguely ethnic guy who likes Ana but then immediately backs off. Ana’s roommate. Her creepy boss. Christian’s exes. But when it was a Twilight fanfic all those characters were other canon Twilight characters with fully fleshed out personalities and relationships to each other.

So the random guy who knows Ana and is kinda shown to have a crush on her but quickly disappears entirely from the plot until the third book was Jacob, a hugely important Twilight character. Readers of the fanfic would already know him and have reasons to like him, so none of that needed to explained. Only yes it did, because his character comes back out of nowhere in the third book so that it can revealed he gets a happy ending too, he’s now dating some friend of Ana’s, who was also only briefly mentioned and has no established character, but was also a canon Twilight character who a fanfic reader would know about and care about. The reader has been given absolutely zero reason to care about this character, I legit do not even remember his name in 50 Shades. But it makes total sense if you’re a Twilight fan and it’s Jacob, of course you’d want one of the three main characters to have a happy ending too. Just thought I’d dig into that a little more, it’s fucking hilarious to me.


[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory40 points41 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

You know what? I actually agree with you, and I've made this same point on this same subreddit on several previous occasions.

You're entirely right about the appeal of 50 Shades. It isn't because women want to be violated, dominated, punished and degraded. The book is really the traditional romance novel fantasy of finding an extremely powerful and agential and hot man, and putting him on a psychological leash. The woman gets the man's agency by proxy.

What I would disagree with is your presumption that the bondage aspect is irrelevant, or that it doesn't matter, or that no women found it erotic or arousing. This is clearly untrue. The bondage aspect heightens the payoff. Making Christian a hardcore dominant BDSM fan increases his perceived agency/powerfulness, which in turn increases the thrill of 'taming' such a man.

The simple fact is that "submissive" BDSM fantasies aren't necessarily ones that eroticize powerlessness per se. The classic female rape fantasy is actually a fantasy of having power over the rapist (its a fantasy of being so intensely desirable that he must have you and will do anything to have you).

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If the whole story was only the first book, I would agree with you. By the end of the story though my takeaway is that he isn't really dominant at all, and what Ana wants from him most of all is genuine vulnerability. By the third book, the bondage aspect is no longer the focus of the story, not by a long shot.

I'm realizing that I didn't do a good enough job expressing that yes, women are turned on by the bondage-y stuff. But my hypothesis is that the biggest fans of the book are like the author and like Ana, they aren't really into BDSM beyond making their partner happy who likes it, and they don't really understand it, nor are they interested in doing some homework about it. It's a novelty. Ana would actually prefer to fuck sweetly and lovingly, but she will give in to his requests because she wants to make him happy. A running theme is that she isn't that inherently submissive deep down. Like in the third book when she initially doesn't change her name after the wedding because she has her own professional identity that she wants to keep. She constantly smiles quietly to herself, rolls her eyes and makes quippy comments when he goes all serious dominant style. Like, it can be hot, but she also thinks it's all a little silly and dramatic.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree Ana isn't inherently submissive deep down. That's absolutely the case.

That said it seems to me you're presuming if someone gets off on subbing in BDSM they must be full-on hardcore 24/7 lifestyle submissives or something (i.e. you treat the fact she keeps her own professional identity post-marriage as evidence that she isn't a sub). That's simply untrue. And frankly I think we can even debate the premise about anyone being innately dominant or innately submissive (or even if these things exist as objective essences in the first place).

I agree with you to an extent; most of the big 50 Shades fans are not themselves hardcore kinksters. But I still think that you're trivializing the appeal of the bondage-ness, even to this demographic. Like I said I think the bondage stuff does appeal to them, it isn't a meaningless flavor at all. I think it plays into the classic romance novel fantasy... making Christian a BDSM dominant is about making him more of a bad boy, more forbidden, more dangerous, more powerful... and like I said, this makes the fantasy of "taming" (in a limited sense) him more intoxicating.

Think of it this way... don't you think its adorable and cute when lions and tigers act all sweet and affectionate with humans? It isn't as adorable when a housecat acts similarly.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If I made it sound like I thought the bondage flavoring was meaningless, that was not my intention. Just that it is flavoring. It's not a story about real BDSM, which I think most people can agree on, including you and I. It's rather a boring person's version of it, which is certainly titillating to someone super vanilla and a big plus, but it's still a vehicle to the romance, which judging by the way they directed the movies is the real meat. His desire to be dominant is a straight up character flaw of his by the third book/movie, like, she still thinks it's hot, but it's not why she likes him, and she wants to help him move past it since his interest in the subculture started with him being groomed. I do agree with you that the reader showed up for the diet bondage. Ana tolerates it in a flirty, put upon sort of way. I also think this is intentional, so the reader can fantasize about how they'd be more into it than Ana. If Ana had been an enthusiastic slutty sub, it wouldn't have the same appeal I bet.

[–]pitbull_phobiaPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly how I feel about the book. I actually did enjoy it. It's not well written and it sure as hell isn't wonderful literature, but I still enjoyed it because it is a kind of fantasy

[–][deleted] 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

So basically it's porn over storytelling. Yup, it really is the female equivalent of otaku bullshit.

[–]pitbull_phobiaPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean fanfiction is generally seen as kind of cringey, but yeah pretty much

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

It isn't because women want to be violated, dominated, punished and degraded.

Yet that is a very noted appeal of the book and that the movies. But I would argue its a mix of the BDSM stuff and well as romance. The whole series of books really is basically a romance porn for women in short.

its a fantasy of being so intensely desirable that he must have you and will do anything to have you

Which isn't having power over the rapists when you are giving up control so he can take you how ever he wants.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Yet that is a very noted appeal of the book and that the movies.

Have you even read a summary of the books?

Anastasia Steele says, repeatedly, she is not a submissive. She never even signs Christian's contract. The stuff she permits him to do to her is pretty damn tame, and at the end of the first novel he tries to 'punish' her and that causes her to run off and end the relationship. In the following two books, Christian becomes more vanilla, and Ana eventually succeeds in getting him to agree to a vanilla relationship without a power dynamic.

I don't see how the "appeal" of 50 Shades is in being 'violated, dominated, punished and degraded.'

Which isn't having power over the rapists when you are giving up control so he can take you how ever he wants.

You're conflating actual rape with a rape fantasy. In fantasy, realism goes out the window. Fantasy rapes are rarely like actual rapes.

In the traditional rape fantasy, he is always this handsome, desirable figure... one who is obsessed with her, desires her, craves her, needs her... her desirability destroys his self-control and makes him an animalistic servant of his lust.

For some women, there is an element of being relieved of responsibility for sex. But the overwhelming theme of the rape fantasy is an intense desire to be desired and to have one's desirability affirmed. Whilst, yes, in the real world, rape is an atrocious and terrifying and disempowering experience, fantasy rape is quite unlike real-world rape.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Perfect response. Co-signing that fantasy rape is nothing like, and even the exact opposite of real rape. Even the people who do have, say, a humiliation/shame fetish usually still want to experience such a thing in a controlled environment. No one actually wants to be actually raped by a gross hobo or even just someone being genuinely disrespectful.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Perfect response.

Thank you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Have you even read a summary of the books?

I've read along with the OP's review of the books.

Anastasia Steele says, repeatedly, she is not a submissive.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....She may not be submissive in a BDSM sense but she is submissive in a relationship sense. As from how the author appears to written the whole story its very much an x rated romance novel nothing more. I don't think the main appeal of the story is the BDSM part by any means but its certain an appeal to women in the way its written.

You're conflating actual rape with a rape fantasy.

Nope.

In the traditional rape fantasy, he is always this handsome

Ya no. In traditional rape fantasy and that matter rape fantasy for most women that have them they actually don't give a crap about how the man looks. They care much more about the power dynamics of it all and how on their end how they give up control to the man and give him free will of their body. Yes there are variations but the core fantasy surrounds this.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Have you read the actual books themselves?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

No. Why would I? The quotes I've seen from the book alone are horrid.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then you’re proving my point lol. That people who haven’t read the books are the ones pushing a narrative that isn’t actually in the books, just like what you’re doing in these comments.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And yet numerous people who have read the books are all pretty universally saying the same thing.....

[–]BleuBird1810 points11 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

All I know is that anyone with *actual* knowledge of kink and BDSM hates the misinformation and harmful ideas the books push. Then again, a lot of people in the kink and BDSM communities like to blow smoke about consent and negotiation, even though there are innumerable issues with people pushing past and ignoring limits...but that's another discussion.

I applaud the fact that you were committed enough to write all this up, however I also think you are possibly overthinking it. Many women enjoy romance literature. It doesn't mean they ACTUALLY wanted to be treated the way women are in stories. Having a fantasy in your head does not mean you will enjoy it if it actually happens.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 10 points11 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I agree that most women don't want to actually be treated like they do in their fantasies, that's certainly true for me. I don't actually want to be a stripper and wouldn't ever actually fuck my boss, but I've certainly fantasized about such things. But I also don't think it's too much of a stretch that this particular fantasy (rich guys falls in love with her and marries her and buys her a house) is one that many of the women reading it would be okay with, bad BDSM parts aside haha

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I think its better to say most women don't want to actually live out their fantasy but a portion of those women would say role play it out with someone they trust. For example with the rape fantasy. Most women that have that fantasy don't want to be actually raped. But they will roleplay it with someone they trust though.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 6 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Well yeah, cause it isn’t actually rape then, nor was the fantasy ever actually about rape in the first place. It’s about wanting to feel really desired by a specific guy who she is already into. He’s not even really seducing her because she’s preselected him to play that her role in her fantasy.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

nor was the fantasy ever actually about rape in the first place

Despite it was/is.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

As someone who actually has “rape” fantasies, no, it’s not actually about rape. I feel like this has been explained many times in PPD.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

As some who has them as well and has talked to numerous women who has them as well, I am going to disagree. I do find it funny somelike like you has rape fantasies though.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Your not the sort person I would think would have one given your view point on things.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why do you not think I would enjoy having sex with an enthusiastic partner who I want to have sex with? I mean, that’s what a “rape” fantasy is after all.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!-2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Actual dominant guys think that your weirdo "scene" where the woman is in charge have no dominance at all. And the women we date, who submit to us, also believe the same.

Contracts? Lolololol, consent even, come on. Girls can fight back.

[–]BleuBird182 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's quite the assortment of wildly uninformed conclusions you made there. I'm not part of the kink or BDSM community. I know people that are, along with reading about it, and following some youtube channels because I find different group dynamics and social circles interesting.

There are many different types of relationships and bonds between people though. A man or woman can be a submissive, dominant, master, slave, big, little, owner, pet, switch, or other things entirely. Some dynamics are purely about exploring a fetish without any sex or genitals involved at all (wearing stockings, or latex, spanking, rope work, and tickling as a few examples).

Some people do opt to use written contracts. From my observations, which are limited in scope, that's usually something that happens in long-term Dom/sub relationships, or Master/slave dynamics.

When a woman is a Domme or Mistress, she is 'in charge,' but it's because the submissive or slave gives her that control. The reason safe words and the like exist is so that if or when things go too far, everyone involved can communicate with each other. Dominant/Master/Big types do have to earn the trust and submission of the other person, because trust is essential to healthy and sane play.

However, if you think anyone tangibly has power when they're heavily tied up, hanging upside down, or secured and bent over something....then you are very much incorrect. The only 'power' in many scenarios boils down to trusting that the other person will listen to your signals when and if you give them. It's trusting that when you agree to 'no anal,' they won't just decide to dive in once you are helpless.

There are many circles that ignore it when people cross lines, assault, and rape others during munches and scenes gone wrong. Yes, people negotiate boundaries, but they could (and sometimes are) ignored.

You know what one of the biggest problems in the community is? Asshole guys that overstate their experience, know nothing about safe practices, and use it as a way to prey on newcomers. Everyone learns to avoid the types that think there's such a thing as 'actual dominance.' As though it is a universal set of traits without variation, or difference. Someone that likes to be embarrassed and degraded may not respond or be attracted to a dominant that is mainly into Bimbofication.

I don't know what you mean by 'actual' dominance. If you walk around having to constantly 'behave' in a way that you think proves you are 'dominant' then that's just you playing a part, and it's not really any different from other types of role play. Dominant/confident people do whatever they want and don't obsess over whether or not a comment or behavior is going to 'zap' them of their standing.

From what you've said, and the way you've said it - you strike me as more of an insecure Nice Guy that walks around thinking women owe you something.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong because you're a stranger on the internet that I've never spoken to before, and assumptions are generally unhelpful and inaccurate.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate the write up and I understand you put honest and real effort to share that with me. I know though. And I'll try to communicate my claim, again, as poorly as I communicate it.

There is no scene, and if their is then it's an act, even when it's not an act. It's the fakery.

Take all your knowledge, all of who you are, and meet a girl, many girls, and then just be yourself. The very self that you are, in that "scene"

True dominance requires no 'scene', no contract, not even a word.

Just be that guy and lead your own way.

Anyway yes all your mumbo jumbo crap about me might as well just call me a beta virgin or whatever I don't care anymore. I'm not here for advice my life couldn't be better I have everything. In RL every guy knows. Because I accomplished it in real life.

Here? Well bro I do appreciate that communication, that's all real, I know it is, and thank you for the true effort post. That's good shit that's a good post. Now take that and be that guy, take that guy, to the end result.

The caricatures, the extremes, the "God's", the Chad, the incel, they ain't real. The world isn't black and white. Right now? The world is two gray characters talking. And yeah that was a pretty good reply. My only suggestion is be that guy, who you are, all the time.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, this is definitely a big part of it. I read the first book to see what the hullaballoo was about, didn't like it, but I got it. There's also the strong nonsexual fantasy of "you meet a guy and suddenly you're crazy rich, your student loans are gone, you have a prestige job in your chosen field, and you're doing all kinds of fancy shit you don't have to plan or pay for." There's surprisingly little sex in these books, and I think that's part of why.

I also think that there IS an element of a woman liking to be a man's "first" in these books that's often overlooked. Not physical first exactly, but emotional first--Christian has never had a girlfriend, shared a bed with a woman, or allowed a woman to see him naked. She's, in some respects, his first crush. Ana is overwhelmed by sexual desire for the first time when she meets Christian, but he's overwhelmed by romantic desire for the first time when he meets her.

[–]Nu_Guy2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think that says exactly what RP has been saying since day 1.

Women want an alpha guy who is tall and good looking with a lot of resources.

[–]CaeruleaTigris0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

But fantasies are called fantasies for a reason. Most of the women who like this sort of romance literature are the sort that are boring and plain (plus a lot of them are housewives with older children, I mean what else are they really gonna do?), and the excitement of living a life of status where you could do essentially whatever you want is a massive part of it. It's not realistic, but that's also part of the appeal, kinda like how people like consuming horror media even though they probably wouldn't actually enjoy the situation if they were in it themselves.

Having resources is always going to be a plus for women who intend to have children, that's a logical attraction to have when having children can potentially take you out of the workforce for a period of time. Plus, there is an inherent attraction (at least for me) to people who are driven, passionate and successful because it signals not only to financial stability but also to emotional stability.

Women like good-looking men, men like good-looking women. This is a fact. But how many men and women actually end up with their ideal-looking person? It can be said that "such and such is what women want" but that's simply not the reality. I can't tell you how many women I've seen who get all hot and bothered about hot actors but they're perfectly content in a marriage to butt-ugly guys with average jobs.

And I think, ultimately, the "alpha" thing is really more of a matter of the attractiveness of confidence, the frustrating obsession that I can only assume is connected to maternal instincts with "fixing" assholes or, in some cases, being the "one girl who is special enough to change his ways."

[–]Nu_Guy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok....Back to my original point, any knowledgable RP man can identify the appeal of the fantasy....We have been seeing it for all our concious lives.

[–]BirdManBrrrr4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In conclusion, women do not like 50 Shades because of bondage, they like it because it is the ultimate shy female fantasy. An average girl tames an Alpha playboy, she brings him to heel despite his desire to dominate her and he one by one caves to her every demand, giving up his player lifestyle, his sex dungeon requirement for their intimacy, his fear of commitment, his mommy issues, his stance on kids. She gets out of him everything he swore he would never give: normal sex, marriage, a big house to raise a family in and fatherhood.

I don't disagree at all with your conclusion, but the devil is in the details:

The rich, young, dominant, extremely good looking, well hung billionaire She tamed that.

She didn't tame Jerry the dad-bod middle manager in accounting making $70K driving a 6 year old Honda Accord, or some other slightly above median guy. Picking her up in his Accord and going on a date to Olive Garden can't compete with buying her an Audi and commute-on-a-whim by helicopter and gallivanting on his yacht in the Mediterranean because love and money and stuff.

I'd posit most of the unremarkable women who saw themselves in Ana and got their panties dripping at the plot as you outline went on to further resent their unremarkable lives and BFs/husbands for not doing more and being better and giving her that life that this humdrum, allegedly unremarkable reporter girl was able to get.

BTW the first book was hot, the 2nd and 3rd sucked in comparison. Most of the women I asked about it then agreed.

[–]analt223No Pill2 points3 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Two of women's most loved fictions of the past 20 years are Sex and the City and 50 Shades of Gray. What do they both have in common? They both are this female power fantasy of she's powerful in some way/shape/form but hes EVEN MORE powerful (Mr. Big, Christian Gray).

Both the male and female power fantasies revolve around male power.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 5 points6 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Christian is not even more powerful than Ana. She gets fed up with him and tries to leave him at the end of the first book and he spends half the second trying to beg her to come back to him. She does on the condition the bondage gets toned down, which he caves on. He caves on everything, including her not immediately taking his name after marriage, which she only reluctantly does after he has an insecure breakdown about it. His insecurity is the main running conflict throughout all three books, and her triumph is helping him overcome it and nurturing him.

I now want to write a second post about Sex and the City because there’s a lot to unpack there too, maybe some other time lol

[–]analt223No Pill0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

But he got money, she tames the rich dude. Its somewhat similar to sex and the city's mr big.

I have read some criticisms of SATC from feminists about its ending, how she should of ended up alone and not with him because its about herself (btw if you cant "find yourself" in the company of others, you are the problem).

But really the feminist ending the SATC is not her being by herself or with mr big, its her protecting and providing for a man making a third of what she makes and being happy. You know, ending those gender roles!

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 2 points3 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Yeah he’s rich, but the story goes out of its way to show Ana isn’t a gold digger. She is happy in her modest lifestyle when the story starts. His wealth and fame makes her uncomfortable and all throughout the story she finds herself wishing he was more normal and down to earth. He’s exciting and it’s flattering, but she would ultimately be fine eating cold pizza with him in pajamas on an old couch. He is the one who insists on flaunting his wealth around, but she isn’t impressed in the way he assumes she will be. She’s dazzled because it’s not normal to her, but she doesn’t chase it. She tries to leave it all behind and dump him, like I said. He begs her to come back, and she does after he opens up to her. Like, they go to his mom’s house at one point and hang out in his childhood bedroom and that is the kind of thing that ropes her back in.

[–]analt223No Pill0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

She's a gold digger, just more of a chameleon. She plays her games on a rich dude, not a broke ass punk

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Have you actually read all three books?

[–]analt223No Pill0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

yes. its overall the exact same concept as anything else women eat up, just more twisted. Its still men: you better make money. She still wants to "play her games" with a rich dude, her feigning interest in his money is just her angle/approach to winning him and wrapping her around her finger.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I’m not getting the impression you actually read the books if you see Ana as a golddigger. Christian specifically likes her because she isn’t.

[–]analt223No Pill0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

I see Ana as a woman who uses a different angle to get a rich dude, probably a more modern one tbh.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Can you quote me to any part of the books that supports that? When does she, in her detailed and ongoing monologue in which we learn all of her inner thoughts and motivations, think about wanting to be with Christian for his money?

[–]toronto87 1 points [recovered]  (33 children) | Copy Link

Ya read the RP sidebar this is RP 101.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 13 points14 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

It's RP 101 that 50SOG isn't actually about bondage, it's about women wanting and getting commitment?

[–]Nu_Guy3 points4 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

Anyone with knowledge of the RP sidebar can identify what the women were really fantasizing about. The looks, wealth and status......

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 5 points6 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

His commitment, his loyalty, his eventual rejection of being all the fun stuff that TRP tells men to be at her request. Christian follows the exact opposite of RP advice. He has oneitis, he tells her all his feelings, he’s genuinely loyal, he gets married before 30 and they immediately have a kid. I think you’re missing my point.

[–]Nu_Guy0 points1 point  (27 children) | Copy Link

I get your point. My point is, do you think this book would have captivated the minds of millions of women if it was an unattractive shy guy from walmart who has oneitis, tells her the feelings, is genuinely loyal, gets married and has a kid before 30?

They would puke.....

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (26 children) | Copy Link

Why would anyone regardless of gender cast an unattractive person in their fantasy?

[–]Nu_Guy0 points1 point  (25 children) | Copy Link

So you missed my point. Let me phrase it this way:

You are saying the fantasy is the loyalty and not the status. (or bondage which I agree with that part)

I am saying the fantasy is getting loyalty from that specific source.

I believe this because loyalty is available to women from men readily. They just want it from specific sources.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (24 children) | Copy Link

I’m saying that being physically attractive is a given in a fantasy. Nowhere in my super longass post did I make the claim that his appearance and status doesn’t play a part in her attraction to him. But that’s not the meat of the fantasy. I believe I called it the window dressing.

[–]Nu_Guy0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

I think that the bad boy, billionaire aspect is the meat of the fantasy.

Lets do a hypothetical thought experiment. Two dating profiles on two different sites, same picture, same age 35. One is an entrepreneur millionaire in the adult film industry, (nuff said)

one is a widower who was married for 5 years, and then single for 5 years because of his wifes memory. It was her dream to go to Israel to help people in poverty, he was sort of shy but loved her so much and believed in her so he fully supported her and they went to Israel where she was accidentally killed in a terrorist attack. He created a foundation in her memory, and now works at Rite-Aid and is thinking of starting to date again.

Do you really believe the widower would get more hits?

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

You are missing the forrest for the trees. I have not made any arguments that a nonrich guy would work interchangbly in 50SOG. I specifically mention that she is attracted to taming such a man multiple times.

But my point, which I think you are missing, is that she wants to change him, and the fact that she is able to is get him to is the payoff for the reader. Telling me “Well she wouldn’t do that for someone working at Walmart!” doesn’t challenge anything I said. No, of course she wouldn’t, and I didn’t make that argument.

[–]analt223No Pill0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

she wants the loyalty of the rich dude. Thats what she wants. Thats the male persepective. Yes, she wants his commitment, nobody is denying that. It still revolved around her getting what she wants from the RICH dude. Its her challenge.

You dont understand the books i dont think, at least from the male perspective.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

There is no male perspective in 50SOG. It was written by a woman about a woman for women.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

More like average women want to be desired by only the best men. It's an ego boost to 'tame' a man like that and to gain his commitment because he changed for her. What's RP about it, too, is the hypergamy: why is it that a white billionaire is good enough to get women excited to buy 100 million copies? I mean, why would a billionaire bother with boring and average?

It's full of manipulation, domination, drama and a ridiculous plot that would never play out in the real world. Men have a chance at living their sexual fantasies if they pay for them or gain enough social status. I don't know if billionaires are getting hard at the thought of average women, though.

[–]BajaBlast906 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not only is 50 Shades some of the WORST erotica I have ever read, but it's also heavily scrutinized by the BDSM/Kink Community for being innacurate and misrepresented. As someone who was an once apart of that community it's disappointing to see BDSM culture butchered like this.

It's got to be some of the worst writing I've ever read. I get that women read it for the juicy bits but even those were badly written enough to be a boner killer. You know what it really says about women? 50 Shades appeals to the sheltered suburban housewife who thinks light bondage or rough sex is BDSM.

I think that the appeal to women is less about bondage and more about their attraction for the character Christian Gray-wealthy, attractive, alpha type of guy. He is the embodiment of an alpha/Chad. Despite the fact that he has all this going on, his character in the books are so underwhelming. The girl protagonist is also a hot mess of hormones and bad rationale. That coupled with the ridiculous dialogue makes me wonder if the whole series is an accidental satire.....

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

50 Shades appeals to the sheltered suburban housewife

Nearly all of my housecleaning clients had those books on their nightstands a few years back. Good times, I guess! lol

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

While I agree its bad all around, the fact women ate it up speaks to how they view porn and sexual fantasies and what have you. As its clearly written to appeal to women in that way.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Ana never 'tames' Grey in the story, she is always at his mercy whenever he wants to humiliate her or just rape her. BDSM is just thrown in to make a typical story about domination seem more interesting.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

She gets marriage and a family from him, and she gets him to compromise with the bondage stuff. When does he rape her?

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

When he breaks into her apartment

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ah, that scene. As I addressed in my post, part of the problem with 50SOG is that it was written for an audience (hardcore Twilight fans) who read it with implied consent between the characters. This is why people like me have heavily criticized it, because when you change the names and put it out into the world, it loses that context.

That scene is written with the understanding that the reader is imagining herself as Ana, and the reader wants it to happen. So it's not rape, it's a ravishment fantasy.

But on paper yes, it's super problematic. I'm not condoning any of this, just explaining the history behind the story and the context of it all.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

From a feminist perspective you can still glare at women for having a fantasy blur the lines of consent so much.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do, quite vocally.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The lines of "consent" are very very blurry, often crossed, but an actual strong woman doesn't have a career. She has boundaries, and when those lines of "consent" are crossed, she may go with it, until she doesn't. And she will make it known that you just crossed the line.

[–]deadsandsushi2 1 points [recovered]  (10 children) | Copy Link

I've never read the books or saw the movie. I have zero interest in bondage or in taming an alpha.

Fewer women give a serious shit about 50 shades than e-philosophers want to think do.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, over 100 million sold...that puts it in best seller territory. That's not a small fan base.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 8 points9 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I personally don't either, but having spent many years in online fandoms, there are a lot of lonely women out there who do get off on that sort of fantasy, and they're the target audience.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I do not think most of them are lonely

[–]pitbull_phobiaPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

They're lonely as hell for a "romantic relationship" and hate the idea of being "just used" for what they see as meaningless sex.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

When I browsed some "fandom" groups in the past most of the users were either teenage girls or married women

[–]pitbull_phobiaPurple Pill Woman4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think married women get drawn into stuff like this because they want emotiobal porn. Guys often complain about lack of sex in long relationships. Women complain about "losing that spark," aka the romance. Which in turn makes them not want to have sex.

I think the reason this happens so much is because men and women tend to want different things (sex vs romance). In successful relationships they're balanced and compatible. When they're not, both sides are unsatisfied. While men turn to porn or whatever, women turn to fanfiction (aka a different kind of porn).

As for teenage girls being lonely and turning to fanfiction, I can personally confirm that bc I've been one.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think married women get drawn into stuff like this because they want emotiobal porn. Guys often complain about lack of sex in long relationships. Women complain about "losing that spark," aka the romance. Which in turn makes them not want to have sex.

But is that "lonely"?

As for teenage girls being lonely and turning to fanfiction, I can personally confirm that bc I've been one.

They usually aren't the main audience for something like 50 Shades, though

[–]darla101 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes that can be very lonely. Lots of people live in lonely marriages.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!-3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not emotional porn. It's dominance porn. And I don't mean "bdsm scene" I got to tie you up and give you some SPANKINGS!!! WHOOOOOO

Now is it ok for us to have sex?

Is it ok now?

Maybe if I tie you up and play around on your wonderland?

Did you check the box that that was ok?

It's dominance porn. But dominance not from a man who simply dominates her, but a man she gets close enough to, that she slips into his cracks. She understands him, enough, that she slips through. She slips through far enough that in the man's head, AS THE MAN EXPERIENCES IT, she IS HIM.

So to actually hurt her, to hurt her in her heart, is to hurt him in his heart. To hurt her, is to hurt him. Though, he will, still, hurt her. To hurt him.

And she will take that hurt. Willinglly. For HIM

Married girls who want this? Weep if you care, or watch them and think, they do deserve it. People do end up where they deserve, because there is no other way for them to end up

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh no they are very lonely. Possibly even watching beauty and the beast and weeping, out of sheer loneliness.

You would be surprised.

Though many of them become invested in their loneliness, and it becomes a part of their personality, that they are loathe to part with. Almost like in a sense they are dating their own loneliness, because they are.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I've heard it a thousand times. "Look at the sales of 50 Shades of Grey! It's about bondage and women being tied up and spanked and dominated and it's the best selling book ever! That means all women want to be tied up and spanked and dominated!"

I understand that "a thousand times" is an overestimation here, but I'd be ultimately and maniacally satisfied to see one person who legitimately based the "women want to be dominated, often violently" argument solely on 50SOG, rather than, say, this thread having 747 upvotes.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's where I start, but my post builds towards

The bondage stuff is just the backdrop, merely the flavoring on top of this much deeper, larger, overarching female fantasy. By the third book/movie it's more of a background element than a driving part of the plot.

I'm not saying women don't get off on the dominant elements, but there are lots of books out there with those themes. What makes this particular story stand out is how she forces a change in him, and gets him to lighten up a bit and seduce him into a comfortable marriage and parenthood, her actual goal.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

She wins, and of course she does it's a romance novel.

Never read this one and thank you very much spacewhiskey for this write up! I think that if guys were truly invested into understanding women they would give some of these novels a read. And try (I do only mean try) to understand the dynamics from a woman's perspective. Not, you know, a guy with a vagina's perspective.

There is a lot of subtlety to the dance of dominance and submission.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There is a lot of subtlety to the dance of dominance and submission.

Sure. But the rules have changed and it's far riskier for men to bother with subtlety in a world where consent can be withdrawn after the fact. Men can read a million romantic novels and enjoy them too, but they'd be crossing into creepy territory for not being attractive enough considering how often women enjoy ravishment fantasies.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes for sure life is pretty risky.

Very risky in fact.

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That sub would be dominated by people into kinky sex.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

people into kinky sex

that's all people

[–]CombatStaceyBlue ovaries4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

that's all people

nope. Not all are into choking FFS. I'm certainly not.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Whatever you already have made it clear exactly what you are so who care?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like the female equivelent of Japanese Otaku Pandering Light Novel trash. Nice writeup btw, was enjoyable.

Either way I already knew this, just not in the context of 50 shades of gray and it sounds like an awful thing to me.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I thought that it was common knowledge that 50sog was a 'taming of the wild beast' fantasy.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19931 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

agreed. take that, misogynists who just want to find silly excuses to hurt women. take that!

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great post thanks for writing it!

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you! 👊

[–]Pesky_GibbonPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You get it.

In my footrace, you would place.

K.

[–]reluctantly_red3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In other words the bondage sit is just to make a Beta schmuck a tiny bit interesting.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Domination isn't accomplished by tying a girl up. It is accomplished by the man having a desire, perhaps that night his desire is to tie her up, and because he is dominant, she submits, to the desire. In this case, tying her up and giving her some spankings Zergiog style

[–]SerpentCypher2 points3 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

So what you're saying is... women want Chad after all. Thanks for putting an end to all this debate surrounding this.

Next time some bint says women don't want Chad, I'm directing her to this post.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 10 points11 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

I guess it depends on your definition of Chad. Does Chad break down and cry about his sexual trauma? Does Chad go back on saying he'll never commit and settle down and have kids?

[–]SerpentCypher0 points1 point  (18 children) | Copy Link

Well you certainly seem to think so.

it is the ultimate shy female fantasy. An average girl tames an alpha playboy,

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 12 points13 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

He starts as the untouchable alpha, but as the rest of that sentence goes on to finish saying, the fantasy isn't that he is an alpha, it's that in spite of that, he ceases his fun alpha lifestyle to settle down with her and her alone. And in the process of this happening, it turns out much of his cockiness and bravado was actually a front hiding deep, unresolved pain, which she helps him work through. She fixes him, that is the fantasy, of course he's going to also look like "Chad", but it's way more complicated than that. Him being physically hot is just the window dressing for her soothing his tortured soul with her feminine touch.

[–]SerpentCypher4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

That's... Kinda the point. Women don't want a natural beta who treats her the way he is naturally inclined to. They want to tame the alpha, Chad etc. They want a man that doesn't display caring or beta traits, but she brings that out in him, because she is special. She doesn't care about some guy who already isn't living a wild lifestyle or sleeping with other women all the time (because he can't) because he has nothing to give up for her. The alpha though, if he gives up his hedonistic lifestyle (which solely benefits him) for a quiet monogamous life with her (which benefits her to his detriment) then she must be amaaaaazing.

To sum up, women only want Chad because only he is able to make her feel special. Her biggest fantasy is actually rather narcissistic, as it all revolves around how unique and special and fantastic she is.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 5 points6 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

But doesn't Christian go completely against the RP narrative? TRP claims that women aren't attracted to men who cry, or open up, certainly not men who admit to being victims of sexual assault, even if they're in denial about it. How is that Chad?

[–]SerpentCypher1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I dunno, I'm not Red Pill. As far as I am aware Chad is just a guy that displays alpha traits and finds it easy to get sex from lots of women. Anything else is irrelevant.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 6 points7 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

As I understand it, Chad doesn't settle down, he fucks new young girls every weekend forever, at least into his 40s. Christian is like 27 and marries her after knowing her for maybe a year lol. And he has zero desire to cheat on her, that is not even a question in the books. She gets jealous at one point that he talks to an ex, but it's all just a biiiig misunderstanding and they make up.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You know how often, it is pointed out that men have a different ideal of what a "hot guy" looks like relative to women? Its an argument that often comes up in discussions about muscular fictional characters being "male power fantasies" etc.

Well guess what? Its true here too.

The "eternal player" is "alpha fucks." He gets laid, he crushes puss, he doesn't commit, he's a playboy.

The fantasy most women have is "alpha bucks"... i.e. the man who is the complete package deal of both alpha and beta traits.

Alpha fucks is what most TRP men want to become. Alpha bucks is what most women want from men. "Chad" is a slang term that seems to be used interchangeably for both (obviously this is imprecise and results in confusion).

[–]Raikichu1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

THAT IS THE POINT. Women like it because the ultra hot Maximum status Chad chooses the settle down with her. He is still a Chad. He just fell for her.

The male equivalent of that fantasy would be the cute face + big tits and caring Stacie who can get any guy in the world but chooses beta Kevin. Of course a real Stacie would never do that in the same way a real alpha wouldn't go crazy on a plain Jane.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No that isn't it. He doesn't have to be the "alpha chad" guy you guys are so fking confused about. He just has to not be a follower do whatever I'm told guy. He just has to be a guy who acts, on himself, by himself, and for himself.

So a crazy guy should probably be on some meds.

And then she likes it, because she becomes him, and, he becomes her.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The whole alpha beta dynamic, the chad/incel dynamic, whatever are far far FAR too black and white idiot nonsense to really even have any value.

The guy that terps see who they call alpha is what you have described. But then they also add all the traits that the male romance figure, in this case christian, has into him as well. When yes exactly what you are saying here. They are two different men.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But doesn't Christian go completely against the RP narrative? TRP claims that women aren't attracted to men who cry, or open up, certainly not men who admit to being victims of sexual assault, even if they're in denial about it. How is that Chad?

This is where the Lookists/Incels are probably more accurate than TRP.

Make a man hot. Desirable. Rich. Physically attractive. He can afford to break a few of the 'rules' once or twice, especially if that rule-breakage is very specific and strictly limited and done only in one or two critical moments after the man has already validated and proven his hotness. Indeed, if he shows a critical psychological weakness that functions in such a way as to make him need the specific woman in question, this can be considered hot because it means he will be loyal and devoted to her.

Its all part of the "keeping the alpha at her side" thing.

[–]Nu_Guy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Chad is a vague term used by incels and RP alike. The Chad qualifiers in this discussion are the looks, wealth, and status. IRL that is enough to bring in girls from all backgrounds.

[–]beachredwhineCongratulations!1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm going to rewrite this for you and hope that you will gain a better perspective;

Women don't want a natural beta who treats her the way he is naturally inclined to. They want to tame the alpha

Women don't want a natural follower who asks for her permission to be himself, or asks if it's "ok" for him to act on his natural desires. They want a natural leader, who follows his own heart, and his own desires, and who is the epitome of just being himself, to fall in love with her and start to incorporate part of what she wants, into what he wants, not because she dominates him or owns him but because she becomes a part of him, a part of his heart, and it would hurt him to deny himself.

She doesn't care about some guy who already isn't living a wild lifestyle or sleeping with other women all the time (because he can't) because he has nothing to give up for her

You don't have to be living a wild lifestyle to be a brooding man, tall dark and handsome, conflicted, lashing out, wildly, maniacally lashing out, in ways that only she understands. Because she is so special. You who are not special, do not understand that he's not living a "wild lifestyle", he's barely holding on, lashing out and almost not in control. His control, his mad attempts to control everything, are because he has no control. It's not that she see's it, it's that she is special enough to get close enough to him that she passed his armor, his shell, and he opens up to her. The opening up to her doesn't mean shit except that she got that close to him. Because she is that special, to him. An amazing girl fantasy to realize that girls actually have that fantasy.

if he gives up his hedonistic lifestyle (which solely benefits him) for a quiet monogamous life with her (which benefits her to his detriment)

A hedonistic lifestlye does not benefit you. It is not a happy fun life of weeeee one vagina to the next. That is not how it happens. You do not understand, but women on some level, even the nerd dorks who have never had such a man, they DO understand what is happening on some level.

They get fooled for sure. Often. But fooled in ways you clearly do not understand at all.

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

> Her biggest fantasy is actually rather narcissistic, as it all revolves around how unique and special and fantastic she is

This is a direct response to the wildly indiscriminate nature of male sexuality ("any hole is a goal").

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew5 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

i would rather have my eyes poked out and then replaced with a lepers skinned testicles than read any garbage trash that sounds like this

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

they're often but not always too weird to have or want actual relationships, so they mostly have online social lives where their friends are other fanfic authors and they just talk and blog and create all day about whatever show/book/movie they're into.

Out of absolutely nowhere, I am now wondering if medieval nuns in their all-women communities did this same sort of thing, and I am remembering that yes, of course they did. It just wasn't fanfiction. Plus ça change.

[–]SkookumTreeRomantic relationships aren't necessary for happiness!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What were they writing? Seems interesting.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m almost positive I was a socially awkward horny nun in a past life.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You would absolutely hate it!

[–]azngirl76890 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Try watching it. My SO has made me watch every single movie in the trilogy. I put up with it for him but dear god is the cinematography bad.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

oh i didnt know you were a lesbian

[–]azngirl76890 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No haha. He just really loves those movies apparently.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I could only last half of the first movie before I was so bored out of my mind waiting for Paul to kill that boring girl and at least do something interesting with her body for Stella to find.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Jesus where do you come up with this stuff??

My wife is sleeping next to me and I'm trying to stifle my laughing.

[–]azngirl76894 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This was actually pretty good. I was expecting to hear about ladies and submission for the millionth time.

[–]yaseedog will hunt1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

deep dive

you weren't kidding!

[–]Wandos7naproxen sodium0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nothing to do with 50SOG but you might be amused that there are multiple cases where gay X-Men (Charles/Erik) fic ended up getting published with different names into actual books. This probably happens a lot, actually.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m sure it does! There’s a YA series that I think also got a tv show by Cassandra Claire that was originally a Hermione/Draco Harry Potter story.

[–]Uncommon_Sensed_1234 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

You forgot to issue a spoiler alert.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I put it in bold and caps!

[–]Uncommon_Sensed_1234 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

See it in the middle. Guess that ha what I get for not reading the whole post.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There was a part of me that wanted to make the spoiler warning bigger, but I honestly didn't think anyone would care. I kind of assumed that anyone who was interested in the books/movie would have sought them out by now lol. They're not very good, in my opinion.

[–]EdwardBarnes19130 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really liked this but you don’t really answer “why” it is in there?

Because it certainly isn’t necessary in your interpretation or anyone else’s I’d imagine? He could still be a young attractive billionaire who inexplicably ONLY wants to have the shy everygirl but for any number of reasons can’t straight-off-the-bat (causing that build up of tension you rightly say women love).

I would conclude that you are largely right of course but how can you know women that are not you don’t like all that stuff AND the masochism too? That would make more sense.

[–]a_vanillaePurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The reasons cited in your last paragraph are part of why I did not like 50 SoG (besides the terrible writing and unsafe practices). It's a farce of what it's sold to be.

In a better-written story, it breaks down into a little of Column A (he makes her submit physically) and a little of Column B (she makes him submit emotionally). The power struggle is where the real fun lies, and you can't have a struggle if each person is occupying the same role 100% of the time.

Anyway, good post, OP. Thought-provoking.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. And I agree that the real shame is that 50SOG could have been amazing. And it is not lol

[–]donttoleratebullshit0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

This is supposed to make women sound better?

I already knew this shit, it’s a woman’s ultimate fantasy, being a fucking plain Jane (relatable) and a hot chad billionaire dark motherfucker is obsessed with her and ends up being her bitch through that obsession. And she’s his fuck toy.

But y’all are feminists? Hell naw lol

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

She’s not his fucktoy, that’s kind of my point. Over the course of the books she changes his attitude towards sex and love.

Also I don’t believe I made the claim that I was trying to make women sound “better”. My post is about people making uneducated statements about the series because they haven’t read the books.

[–]donttoleratebullshit0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Well I agree with the comment saying this trp sidebar stuff. She is his fucktoy, she ends up taming him and that’s what women do/want then they move on cause they got all the validation they could get out of the dude, what’s left to accomplish? A bigger fish

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What part of plot leads you to believe she considers herself his fucktoy? Also, what part of the story gives you the impression she intends to move on to a “bigger fish”?

[–]donttoleratebullshit1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The whole fucking plot is about this dude doing bdsm with her.

Divorce doesn’t really make for a great fourth book or that book might exist!

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No it isn’t, the whole fucking plot is about her convincing him not to want BDSM with her. Have you read the books? Did you even read my post? I explain all of that.

[–]donttoleratebullshit0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hell fuckin no I didn’t read the books why would I and I skimmed your summary. So you’re saying a woman’s fantasy is to find a dude with crazy sex fantasies and turn him vanilla? Sounds semi plausible

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So you’re just talking about whatever you feel like talking about, not my post and are just making stuff up about a book you haven’t read. Cool.

[–]darudeboysandstormSoup on the stove, bread rising, apple pie0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Truth is as a dude, I would kill for a chick who just lived in reality instead of a fantasy regardless of what that fantasy is.

[–]kewpiegirl0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow. Just wow. Firstly, the women who were reading these books proved to be between 35-50. Not teens. Secondly, yes, agreed, there was much ado about nothing to most of it...BUT, for a lot and I do mean a lot of women it opened a door to taking action on a sexual forefeont. I am a submissive. Always knew I was attracted to alpa males. Now, I also know its okay that I want to be tied up, disciplined, and toyed with and that's alright. Why? Who knows. We all have fucked up stuff in the past, but if it makes us feel more complete, I don't care why it was written or how well. I only care that it was and it helped me find a part of myself.

[–]MGTOWtoday-2 points-1 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Sorry I couldn’t make it through the whole post. 50SOS and it’s vast popularity among women does tell you a lot about women.

1) Women have no taste in quality art. They will consume complete trash if it speaks to their mindless desires.

2) Women do desire to be dominated, but only if the guy is a billionaire who looks like a male model.

3) Women will gleefully accept the idea of getting the crap beaten out of them and raped if it means they can get rich doing it, particularly if they didn’t have to earn that money legitimately.

4) Women base instincts are like spoiled unruly children. They seek and desire behaving irresponsibility and desire to be whores but want to be rewarded for it by getting rich off of someone else’s dime.

This is female “empowerment” in a nutshell. Be irresponsible. Be a slut. Do drugs. Be rewarded for all this by getting rich from it. Just look at how popular self-destructive behavior is now with girls. 20 years ago getting a tramp stamp was edgy. Today women have more tattoos than guys and think it makes them look sexy when in reality it makes them look like they’re stupid trash.

This also tells you plenty about rape. It’s not because you didn’t have her permission, it’s because you didn’t have enough money for her to just think it was all in good kinky fun.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol the MGTOW provides edgy woman-hating commentary that has absolutely nothing to do with the post. Why? Because he needs to fill up his bingo card on pseudo science bullshit that lacks evidence and is based on nothing more than the toxic echo chamber he surrounds himself with.

What a shocker.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Please read my whole post, your commentary doesn’t apply to what I actually said. Or don’t I mean whatever, but specifically telling me you didn’t read my post and then wanting to argue about stuff I didn’t actually say and points I didn’t actually make is pretty rude.

[–]MGTOWtoday-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not arguing. I'm just giving my 2 cents on what the popularity of 50SOG actually means. If I'm criticizing you at all, it's a critique of the length of your post. I think my post sums things up perfectly.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Have you read all three books?

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Also, in addition to not reading my post, I can tell you haven’t read the books. Ana doesn’t have tattoos, doesn’t do drugs and isn’t a slut.

[–]MGTOWtoday0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think you're confused. I'm not making claims about the story. I'm making claims about the fans of the story.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you haven’t read the story, you don’t even truly understand what they’re fans of. Which is actually the entire point of my post you didn’t read either.

[–]MGTOWtoday0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeh but I understand the basic plot. Rich playboy blindfolds and beats the shit out of plain looking girl and she wants to get raped.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No you don’t, at all. I’m assuming you’re trolling me at this point.

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