Women as Reward

SomeTurdInTheWind · 2018-11-14T19:12:11+00:00

Well, the moment a man complains that he is failing to get a partner they tell him that "He is not working hard enough" or that "He needs to try other things" and "Try harder". Women are framed as rewards even by women themselves.

BirdManBrrrr · 2018-11-14T19:53:53+00:00

Said differently, men need to meet or exceed a threshold of attractiveness in both looks and behavior in order for the woman to want to engage sexually. If he's below her threshold, she won't. It's all positive or negative reinforcement for sexually desirable traits at the end of the day:

Positive = rawr lets bang daddy

Negative = get away from me loser ew gross!

Do you agree with the premise and that women have a responsibility in creating this dynamic?

Does it matter? All the stuff like "eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap" and "man is the pursuer, woman the pursued." just outline reality of how things are in reality = women reward men with sex when men demonstrate the proper traits.

Saying "responsibility in creating" implies there is, can, or should be another model to sexuality that's attainable...which we can debate but to no logical conclusion. Human sexuality is what it is IMO.

CainPrice · 2018-11-14T18:53:16+00:00

It's not nearly as complicated as you're making it out to be.

If you ask any woman on Earth, she will tell you that sex happened because she wanted to have sex and was in the mood to have it. Not because the guy made her feel like having sex through a series of words and actions.

If you ask her, "But don't you feel like having sex when a guy makes you feel sexy and desired?", she will respond "Of course. Duh."

If you ask her, "Well, then, aren't you rewarding the man who made you feel that way with sex?", she'll tell you that it wasn't about him at all, but about her and what she wanted.

Women aren't rewarding men. Women are doing what they feel like doing without caring whether or not they're pleasing or rewarding men when they do it. When a woman hooks up with you, it's not about you. It's not that you're really awesome and she wants to please you because you're that awesome. It's because she wants to have sex. She's getting what she wants. Rewarding you is the side effect. Yes, you put her in the mood, but she's not doing it to reward you.

buartha · 2018-11-14T21:21:59+00:00

I think there is a difference between 'winning a woman' and 'winning a woman over'. A lot of media criticisms of 'women are rewards' are of the former; women used as pawns in male competition with little to no autonomy (i.e. kill the dragon, win the princess.) That's very different to acting in a certain way that's attractive to a person or treating them a certain way to curry favour with them

Omelas74 · 2018-11-14T20:32:46+00:00

You're going off course with the "make them feel desired" bit. Women are not seduced into the bedroom by men they are not attracted to, no matter how much that man wants them and let's them know they are desired.

So while I agree with the OP you are missing the crucial elements of the man being of sufficient status that women reward him for his status in whatever form he has achieved it, not for making them feel wanted.

The most successful guys I've ever known when it came to women didn't give two shits about almost any of them, and if they did it was a passing affection at best. All those women knew they were not necessarily wanted, but they rewarded these guys with sex and attention as a means to make themselves feel sexy and wanted through sex with a high status male-it was not the male who made them feel that way with his actions but with his status and therefore wasn't his intention at all.

kandyapplez · 2018-11-14T21:11:36+00:00

rewards don't get to choose for themselves who they are awarded to lol. that's why women don't like that rhetoric. women as rewards is an idea that men just need to achieve x or y and then they get the woman they feel they deserve. which is obviously bs. men say all the time that they thought if they got the right education and job and lived a decent life then a beautiful woman would just manifest.

Regal_Newt · 2018-11-14T19:09:37+00:00

No, it's not a reward. If you put her in a mood where she wants to have sex, she's having sex because she wants to have sex, not to reward you. If you feel like it's a reward, that's you reading into things. Not her sexual strategy. I have to turn my boyfriend on before he'll want to have sex sometimes, too.

GayLubeOil · 2018-11-14T20:07:37+00:00

Sexual Selection in all species is inherently discriminatory in one way or another. So in that sense Sex with the female choosing is a reward for completing the game.

Even if we switch over to asexual test tube baby reproduction, the procedure must still be funded so there still is a reward structure.

The only way out of this is a blind indescriminate orgy. But even then not everyone is invited so.

It's really hard to get past this whole reward structure no matter how the game is ultimately played.

Suggestions welcome.

mega-unicorn · 2018-11-14T23:41:34+00:00

This is just all convoluted and wrong, and that starts in the second paragraph.

“Women frame their virginity like a sacred piece of them to be given only to the most worthy”

Women didn’t create that frame, I’ve never met a woman that feels that way. We are repeatedly told this by society, and misogynists everywhere; that our virginity is a gift - that we’re a prize.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-11-14T18:49:43+00:00

It becomes obvious that female sexuality often manifests itself as a response to how a particular man makes her feel. This inherently frames successful male sexuality as a set of actions where the response is a woman feeling desired resulting in sex.

weve had our differences but congratulations on beign the only man alive who understands female sexuality

merel-- · 2018-11-14T19:16:51+00:00

Is this a negative dynamic? I enjoy being 'swept away'. Nothing wrong with that.

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Skratt · 2018-11-14T21:14:30+00:00

I don't know any women that think being a trophy is bad xD Where are you seeing this?

Mr_White119811 · 2018-11-14T19:22:39+00:00

Do you agree with the premise and that women have a responsibility in creating this dynamic?

To me its not so much the women that create this dynamic. Its the fact that for every attractive woman, there are going to be loads of guys attracted, be they on tinder, in the venue, orbiters, etc, etc. So it does create this sort of competition dynamic where guys are competing. But I don't see it as competing for a prize. Its just her selecting me out of all of them, not because she is comparing me to them all but because I evoke the most emotions in her.

In regards to men fighting over women, I actually love it when that happens, its a great ice breaker for talking to another woman "Look at those two guys fighting over her, she must be the hottest woman in this venue" or "Those two guys are fighting over you, what makes you so special?"

Also, men need to build their won frame instead of buying into a womans fame. Why is the woman a prize? Why does a guy not view himself as the prize? The strongest frame always wins.

WhatIsTheMeaningHere · 2018-11-14T21:26:53+00:00

Huh. What am I rewarding when I totally hypothetically unintentionally knock him out with sex so I can finish watching Sabrina on Netflix in peace?

CombatStacey · 2018-11-14T21:37:18+00:00

> It becomes obvious that female sexuality often manifests itself as a response to how a particular man makes her feel. This inherently frames successful male sexuality as a set of actions where the response is a woman feeling desired resulting in sex. Women frame romance, intimacy and sex within the context of a man acting upon her to make her feel wanted and desired.

What the fuck?

No.

Maybe older women feel this way but they grew up in a different era, in which women weren't supposed to like sex.

HumanSockPuppet · 2018-11-15T00:17:56+00:00

Do you agree with the premise and that women have a responsibility in creating this dynamic?

No. Market forces create this dynamic. Women have holes for men to stick their penises inside (supply), and men want to stick their penises inside women (demand). Everything else is an attempt by actors within the market to maximize their "profit" (not necessarily money) in a given exchange.

Pesky_Gibbon · 2018-11-15T00:27:19+00:00

I agree with this premise, and I agree that we do have a responsibility in creating such a dynamic.

That said, I have never viewed myself as a reward.

And I have never given sex as a reward.

Maybe that's why I've never been in love, and why I've never had good sex.

Huh.

quotient_is · 2018-11-15T00:37:38+00:00

but I can't get over the fact that this is how women frame sex to begin with.

Some women do actively treat sex as a reward. If she's doing it intentionally, I can see your point.

From my experience, starting in HS, women framed their virginity like a sacred piece of them to be given only to the most worthy.

I don't believe this is a built in feature. Girls are (or at least were) taught to guard their virginity. Locks should only be opened with one key, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free, etc.

Later in life, the erotica and porn women consume is generally about creating a narrative in which the woman is felt desirable and sexy by the male protagonist.

Sure. This is extremely common in male oriented porn as well, but it is a greater focus in female oriented material.

It becomes obvious that female sexuality often manifests itself as a response to how a particular man makes her feel.

This is more true than not, but I don't believe it's something most women have control over. Can anyone control what turns them on? We don't have the same levels of testosterone fueling our sex drives, so most of us are reactive.

Sex is then inherently framed as a reward given to men with the correct set of characteristics and actions.

I think intent is required for someone to "frame" anything in any particular way. Heterosexual interaction may objectively be a reward system, but it's pushing it to suggest women are responsible for that dynamic unless an individual woman has specific intent. Think sugar babies or the stereotypical entitled bratty gurl.

Do you agree with the premise and that women have a responsibility in creating this dynamic?

The women who intentionally participate in carrot and stick sexual interactions, yes.

I also think you should consider the importance of historical gender dynamics here. Women (sexually and otherwise) have, throughout history, been given as actual rewards for men. Pay the dowry, get the bride. Win the battle, take the women.

It's a deep seated and long standing dynamic that makes many women uncomfortable when extremes are considered. I'm fairly certain that's the "loathing" you're encountering.

kragshot · 2018-11-15T02:09:58+00:00

I just brought that up in another discussion here. While women may not have been involved in creating that system, they are certainly complicit in maintaining it.

In the old social compact, access to women were used as a reward for average to lower-value men agreeing to exist in the confines of our reigning community structure. And we have definite evidence that both women and men as parents reinforced that idea in how they raised their children. This was especially prevalent in the periods leading up to the sixties and seventies, when it began to fall apart.

dottywine · 2018-11-15T03:57:08+00:00

Their virginity is a sacred piece of them TO HER. It's sacred TO HER. Given to who she chooses. Not as a reward for winning the "Swoon me" game. It's not a game that can be won. It's just meeting someone you get along with well enough.

Check out the porn website for women, by women. It's not videos of being a sexy damsel in distress covetted by princes all across the land. You're thinking of something women consume when they are even older.

It's usually after age 45 that women start fantasizing about being sexually desired because society pretty much ignores women at that point.

The women that men see as a prize are not the women who want to be prized.

Eartherry · 2018-11-15T04:45:32+00:00

I agree with everything you've said, but not that women bear any responsibility. Only because a man's desire is inherent whether women want or are even aware of it. That shifts the undue responsibility for men's attraction to women.

There would some legitimacy to this argument if not for the fact that as men are capable of controlling their own urges, there's no justification, and even less urgency, as to why women should accept anything. Without justification, demands are obviously because of a lack of something one feels entitled to.

[deleted] · 2018-11-15T09:21:07+00:00

Women's role isn't explicitly passive (even though it kind of is by definition). In the romantic scenario, the women has to take on the role of the seductress. Not to dig on men, but I don't think they realize the vast majority of women have to sacrifice their personalities in some way or another so that they can find a man.

Having to look and present yourself as a sexual being 24/7 is hard work. Not just physically, but mentally.

SpencerWS · 2018-11-15T19:34:43+00:00

The way I see it, women have their own terms for when they are a man’s reward, and they get upset when a man views them as a reward on other terms than their own. I think the punchline here is that women generally have feelings that make some sense and deserve dignify, but not much rational awareness to see how things could be in another perspective. They operate in a consistent way, but they misunderstand what that way is all the time. Its not so different from men, but I do think it is different by degree. Thats what thinking through my experience with women and this issue tells me.

poppy_blu · 2018-11-15T00:59:16+00:00

“Women frame” using frame as a verb suggests that women are consciously and deliberately presenting their vag as a trophy for men to win. We’re not. If you as a man see it that way, that is on YOU not us.