TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

60

Feminists say men are not entitled to sex but they might as well say they are not entitled to love, romance or companionship since you get sex from those things. They are not against porno or sex working because we know that 3rd wave feminism is theoretically not opposed to those things (even though we know they often criticize them to the point of glaring contradiction) so they are obviously referencing to sex in a relationship. I don't think they mean 'men are not entitled to sex from one night stands' so it's quite suspicious they are not expressing the concept differently using words like relationships, love, romance etc. What's the logic behind it? Does it sound too harsh to say 'men are not entitled to love'? Or are they implying that you can have a relationship but sex is not guaranteed and women might as well keep you celibate?


[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill30 points31 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

Everyone knows nobody is entitled to “love”... love isn’t quantifiable or measurable. Sex is!

What they are saying is that pussy is not a guaranteed “right” or outcome for living a basic ass life as a citizen of your culture. Many people believe things like housing, education, healthcare, and fair compensation for labor should be expected outcomes for people who play fair by others and are decent citizens. Someone who works and does useful things is ENTITLED to these things in a just society.

These people are saying that sex is not one of those things.

[–]jax006Wants to bang ~20% of PPD chicks9 points10 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

people believe things like housing, education, healthcare, and fair compensation for labor should be expected outcomes for people who play fair by others and are decent citizens.

This is not what the term entitled means. Something being an "expected outcome" doesnt mean you're "entitled" to it. In fact, you even qualify it further with "for people who play fair by others and are decent citizens" most people would probably put love in that bucket tbh.

There is almost nothing anyone is truly inherently "entitled" to it is all a give/take bargain. Even your freedom - you only get to run around society being free IF you dont break societies rules (one rule being you have to produce stuff for societies benefit)

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill12 points13 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

Yes it does mean exactly that practically. I’m sorry, but this is such a pedantic response. Clearly nobody is entitled to anything in the cosmos. But let me try that argument with my mortgage next month. My entire point is that civilization is the process whereby certain expected outcomes arise from codified behavior. Sex and love are not part of that system.

And jesus no, love is not nearly the same kind of “expected outcome” as labor in a fair society. Neither is sex. This is why youre so muddled. You are making meaningless distinctions over minor points and then missing the giant ass major distinction between things one can or SHOULD be entitled to, and things that do not arise from a social transaction. (Unless, again, we’re talking hookers, god bless them).

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....1 point2 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

My entire point is that civilization is the process whereby certain expected outcomes arise from codified behavior. Sex and love are not part of that system.

Funny you should say that, though. The old social compact between men and women was exactly that. Take away all of the flowery language and other obscuring terminology and that was the unwritten agreement between men and women codified in order to make human society function. "Male commitment" translated into physical protection and access to resources, while women provided sex and access to emotional comfort. Even as recently as the 60s and 70s; that was exactly how it went down.

If you were a "decent (fell within society's norms without any known or visible deviancy)" man and had a visible role in your community (went to church, participated in your approved fraternal organizations, etc....), and a "good job with benefits," then you "found a good woman (as in families within your community group allowed you access to their eligible women folk within your stratum)" and got married. That was how it went and that assured that all but the bottom of low-value men had access to women (ergo, sex with a good woman).

In addition, mothers and fathers of those eras, understanding that "what you want isn't always what you get or what's good for you," made sure that their daughters and sons understood that while they might have wanted to marry "Chad" or "Stacy," that they were better off settling for "Emma" or "Ernie;" especially their daughters who might have held out from marriage waiting for "their Chad to come find them." The reason for that was because in order "to keep the wheels turning" and "the gears grinding," society needed all of those "Ernie's" to be out there working and getting the work done.

And I'm just going to say it; the most efficient lube ever created to keep all of the parts moving as they should is "pussy juice." Men will build pyramids, climb mountains, swim oceans, and cross deserts as long as they know (or even believe) that there's a sweet thing waiting for them at the end of it with open arms (and legs). So it was in society's best interest to make sure that "Ernie" and all of his pals that weren't as handsome and charming as "Chad," or wealthy as "Biff," had a shot at somewhat regular sex with a real, live, girl of their own.

Yeah, ladies...guess what; you all were right all along. You all were being pimped out and used as currency in order to pay for society. I agree that it was a fucked up system...but it was one that worked and it was one that our primitive society could handle at it's current social and technological level.

But then Second Wave Feminism came along...not only did they kick over that apple cart, but then they stomped on all of the spilled apples, and then hiked up their skirts, dropped their panties, and pissed all over the apple pulp, making sure that not even the pigeons and rats could get some use out of it. For the record; Third Wave Feminism is just setting fire to the already broken apple cart, even though the apple vendor has already thrown up his hands and went home for the day....

And now "Emma" and her sisters have decided that they all deserve to have "Chad;" fuck that "lame-ass Ernie with his weak chin and sunken chest."

And here we are, today.

But that's okay too...it isn't like this hasn't happened before.

As for"Ernie" and his buddies; they have read the writing on the wall. They're walking off of the job, putting down their tools, and pretty much giving society the finger. "Emma" ain't got time for me? Fine...she can kill her own spiders and move her own furniture...and he ain't going anywhere near that toilet of her's.

But more importantly, all of those dissatisfied men, left to their own devices and without women to balance things out are going to start doing things that make that tipped-over and burning apple cart look like a Boy Scout bonfire...oh wait (cue in footage of the Trump inauguration). In the past, governments have engineered ways to keep that from becoming a problem in their societies. I posit here that the Vietnam war and the last Gulf War were two such attempts to cull so-called "low-value" males from our society. But the last attempt with the Gulf Wars failed miserably in that. So fast forward to today and we have large groups of dissatisfied men communicating and congregating and their numbers are growing every day (Incel Rebellion, anyone?). How long before we have another Minassian/Roger event again?

It's not that feminism wasn't right in wanting to get rid of the old system that placed women at a disadvantage and left their sexual choice in their own hands (it was just a prettied up form of arranged marriages on a mass scale). It was that they didn't take the time to actually come up with a better system to take the place of the one that they threw out...one that factored in guys like "Ernie...with his weak chin and sunken chest....

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Fwiw despite a vastly different ideology i agree with a lot of what’s here. Even my disagreements are more a matter of proper scaling of issues rather than those issues being truthful. IE-

People underestimate how much the past system depended on constant violence and purging of surplus Ernies in senseless wars, and Ernie would be kinda crazy to want to regress there.

The price women paid under that system vastly dwarfs the current hassle Ernie faces. I also don’t think it’s nearly as bad for Ernie today as you suggest, but maybe that’s my fortunate experience talking. I’m not gonna speak for you.

The value we get from unlocking female autonomy in a 21st century knowledge and service economy is easily worth the trouble.

I think we are in the PROCESS of figuring out the stuff you mention, and yeah shit is vague and contentious in the meantime. I still think anyone is crazy to wanna live in the past.

But at core, the value we get is easily worth the change. Like... sorry but i just truly think 21st century capitalism is good enough at keeping MOST people content and distracted enough such that I truly don’t think an Ernie rebellion is either likely or dangerous enough in scale to not be worth what we’ve traded the old system for.

[–]NaridarJust want to watch the world burn.0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Maybe not at a critical scale in the west, but let's not forget that due to China's one-child policy and the girl-holocaust phenomenon, men of the pair-seeking age outnumber women of the same age by 35 million! Granted, many of these men find wives from other southeast-asian countries, but all that does is push the issue elsewhere. Add in that in mostly every society, men are expected to be somewhat older than their significant other, and the problem only exacerbates in future generations. To put these numbers in perspective, the largest army in the world (the chinese one) is about 2 million strong, and the top 20 military powers put together barely break 12 million. Men destined to remain single by rule of numbers alone, many of whom are embittered, possibly enraged, outnumber the top 20 armies of the world three to one. Let that sink in.

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep! Dumb patriarchal standards that value men more than women fuck everyone over. Screw China’s idiotic paternal Confucianism. Those fuckers need sex positive feminism.

[–]let_that_sink_in0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SmeggingRightGot flair? Hell yeah!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Whatever you do, don't let that sink in. He's trouble.

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm just collating the data as it presents itself. As I have written in other threads, I found a way out of the trap and as a result, I'm currently in a 24+ year marriage and as the line from the song says; "It's not a perfect love, but I'll defend it...."

Minassian isn't just a one-off...he's just one of the first ones that came out and overtly publicized it. We are going to start seeing more and more of this as time goes on. People are not just going to stand idly by and be content to be discontented...especially over such a primal thing as sex. Enough dissatisfied women got pissed off and forced a change in society...are you saying that men that are just as dissatisfied and pissed won't do the same?

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It’s not an equivalent level. It’s literally second class citizenship versus the “problem” of not getting to use someone’s self as a prize.

Honestly legal prostitution, VR porn, etc etc will prevent it from being a truly disruptive social change. It’s really not a macro level injustice, and honestly those men today don’t want the burden of patriarchal responsibility that came along with the whole deal.

I don’t think that’s cynical btw. More people will get their rocks off, and actual human relationships will be more for love than other stuff, bc there will be enough alternatives to bad relationships for mere social utility.

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hope that you are right, but my observations don't pan out in your version of the scenario taking root.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hope you are right.

I hope that sex robots and artificial wombs become cheap enough and good enough to make relationships useful only for love and too expensive if the only thing you want is sex and children.

[–]SmeggingRightGot flair? Hell yeah!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

People are not just going to stand idly by and be content to be discontented...especially over such a primal thing as sex. Enough dissatisfied women got pissed off and forced a change in society...are you saying that men that are just as dissatisfied and pissed won't do the same?

Not the same thing at all. When a group of people (a race, or an entire sex) are being kept underfoot, enough people will accept that it should change for it to change.

Sex isn't a human rights issue. Enough men are having enough sex not to join some kind of uprising.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19931 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

thats a lot of words to say men are owed shit from women and ze evul feminists are holding them back.

tsk tsk

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I was waiting for somebody like you to show up and fall into the trap of not really reading what I wrote because of "muh-feminizum."

It's cute how you conveniently ignored every part in my above post where I defended women and feminism for fighting back against the old system. The closing of my short essay clearly revealed my only concern with what has happened as of late:

It's not that feminism wasn't right in wanting to get rid of the old system that placed women at a disadvantage and left their sexual choice in their own hands (it was just a prettied up form of arranged marriages on a mass scale). It was that they didn't take the time to actually come up with a better system to take the place of the one that they threw out...one that factored in guys like "Ernie...with his weak chin and sunken chest....

Let me spell it out for you so even you can understand it.

The original system of social control used your average woman as a carrot to convince your average man to be willing to sacrifice his effort and well-being for the good of society (civilization) with the promise of access to female companionship that would be socially-arranged, ignoring the primordial, pack-driven, tribal social orders that existed before.

If you are going to replace a working system with a better system, then it behooves those that are going to replace said system to make sure that their new system takes into consideration all of the factors that the old system addressed as well as the new factors that they want the new system to address.

This new system, while it benefits women, by placing them in a better place economically and socially; pretty much ignores the guys above the bottom strata of males and furthermore, narrows the field, increasing the number of sexually-disenfranchised men. Men that 50 years ago would have fallen into the "Gurl; I guess...he'll do" category are now; "Nope. Swipe to the left."

The old system made sure to throw those guys a bone because it understood that it was those guys that did the most back-breaking and fucked up work. But today, more and more of these guys are being left out in the cold and can't figure out why. And then those that are starting to come up with an answer and adjust accordingly, are being told that they are wrong for doing it and should just stay where they are. Which is literally nowhere because those self-same girls that are telling them that aren't giving them the time of day and chasing their own personal Chad.

The feminists of old weren't bad at all...they meant well but just didn't understand how to play the long game and society is going to suffer as a result.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 1993-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

the new system wil teach everyone that no one is entitled to another. how difficult is it to understand?

disenfranchised means being denied something, something one has the right to. males have no right to sex or companionship. period.

males better learn and accept this very simple fact or they will die since they couldnt adapt. as simple as that.

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Don't get me wrong. I agree that nobody is entitled to anything other than the most basic forms of human decency. However, your "new system" isn't teaching anyone shit.

We have at the same time that we see incels being condemned for wanting female companionship, we see MGTOWs being shamed for not wanting it. You have quite a few cases of that "mean girl" shit that is targeting these "lower-tier" young males and it is only adding fuel to the fire.

That inconsistency is only speeding up what is already happening.

males better learn and accept this very simple fact or they will die since they couldnt adapt. as simple as that.

Queenie...we're all going to die; one way or another. All that I am saying is that history has shown what happens when lower-tier males find themselves being purposely blocked out of society. That is how you get coups/revolutions/uprisings. This "new system" of yours is not taking that into consideration...if it did, we would not be seeing all of this talk about "Incel Revolutions" and the other insanity that is happening today. All that it did was say; "We'll make things better for women and the men will just have to figure it out for themselves."

Well, time will tell, won't it?

Hit me back in about a year or two and let's revisit this discussion again, okay?

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19930 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

but incels dont want, they demand and they demand it violently. no one's gonna put up with that.

mean girls trope, rly? what is this, high school? no one is making fun of incels, no one. it is when they cross the line that people mock them.

history doesnt have to repeat itself. i dont care about males and thier issues as long as they are threatening women. but if history were to repeat itself, loser males will be used as cannon fodder in some war. and that's it. they will die the same way they lived - pathetically.

the new sustem isnt meant to pair up people, people do that freely. just because loser males cant find anyone doesnt mean system's at fault. but these males lack brains, looks and empathy so they will never acknowledge their fault.

we dont have to revisit anything, i have no interest in that. laws will be harsher because human (female) life is more valuable and what will happen is males suiciding more because ERs and the like will be punished so hard any potential ER will think twice before going on a killing spree.

[–]kragshotDon't mind me...I'm just studying all of you talking monkeys....0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

history doesnt have to repeat itself. i dont care about males and thier issues as long as they are threatening women. but if history were to repeat itself, loser males will be used as cannon fodder in some war. and that's it. they will die the same way they lived - pathetically.

So...you do agree with me. Nice to read.

But as I wrote, the only problem with that is that they already tried that twice with the last Gulf War and it failed to have the desired result. Furthermore, it's pretty obvious that if the government tries to institute a draft, that it's going to fail in spectacular fashion.

laws will be harsher because human (female) life is more valuable and what will happen is males suiciding more because ERs and the like will be punished so hard any potential ER will think twice before going on a killing spree.

And then here's the other problem...suicide isn't a viable answer either because then who is going to pick up the slack and do the necessary dirty jobs; women? Not likely...and the evidence of that is right in front of our faces because your sisters aren't doing them now when nearly every job in the world has been opened up to them.

That is why what you are saying is pretty much not a tractable argument. These are the men that society needs to keep the wheels turning.

With that being said; if things don't collapse in about another 20 years, then automation technology might head things off at the pass...but otherwise, shit's about to hit the proverbial fan.

because human (female) life is more valuable

And once again; thanks for proving my point about your "new system" not taking male needs into consideration.

You be good to yourself and your loved ones, okay?

[–]messiahslave0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

In addition, mothers and fathers of those eras, understanding that "what you want isn't always what you get or what's good for you," made sure that their daughters and sons understood that while they might have wanted to marry "Chad" or "Stacy," that they were better off settling for "Emma" or "Ernie;" especially their daughters who might have held out from marriage waiting for "their Chad to come find them." The reason for that was because in order "to keep the wheels turning" and "the gears grinding," society needed all of those "Ernie's" to be out there working and getting the work done.

And I'm just going to say it; the most efficient lube ever created to keep all of the parts moving as they should is "pussy juice." Men will build pyramids, climb mountains, swim oceans, and cross deserts as long as they know (or even believe) that there's a sweet thing waiting for them at the end of it with open arms (and legs). So it was in society's best interest to make sure that "Ernie" and all of his pals that weren't as handsome and charming as "Chad," or wealthy as "Biff," had a shot at somewhat regular sex with a real, live, girl of their own.

Well I'm the Ernie of the Ernies relationship wise since I'm incel but I'm not a second citizen low class and you can bet I'm getting the work done especially when I was in my mid 20', my spead sheet can attest that for me.

So yeah, I kind of disagree with you on the fact that I need a "pussy juice" to build pyramids, climb mountains or swim oceans, my work and my ethics do not rely on the fact that I might potentialy got Emma or even, dream of dream, Stacy. I'm putting the work for my own self worth and I think that's the right thing to do so I will keep doing it. And I don't care if some people attempt to shame me cause I failed relationship wise, I succeed in other aspect.

Now don't get me wrong, it would have been nice to have an Emma in the old system but I would rather be alone and with my dignity and pride intact in the new one, knowing that Emma would be with me in the old systme but dreaming of chad and see me as a left over cause of my lame-ass weak chin (I got a nice chest actualy, benefits of working my ass off XD).

The only thing that would make me tend to agree with you is that I'm less commit to my work (I will not work 6/7 days a week for instance like I did in my mid 20') and I'm a bad consummer for the capitalist society since I'm alone and I don't spend much. Indeed, I spend my time reading doing sports and only spend a couple of bucks when I share dinner at restaurant with friends. Also, I plan to retire early cause there is no point for me in working until 60' and earning a lot of money since I'm more than happy during my holidays retire in the tiny house I bought myself near the mountain in the middle of nowhere. I would have not do that if I had a family of my own.

I also have a kind of, I don't really care of what's going on in society, so as long as I can train, eat, see my friend and read my books, a nuclear war can happen and that will not bother me. But imho, it is the same for everyone else and more the result of an highly individualist society (the famous burgerlich gesellschaft) and not because I don't have Emma nor Stacy :'( :p

So I understand your point too.

Let's say that the right interpretation of where we headed it's in the middle and that the pyramids will have to be build fast at least if people are like me cause we don't need to make shit ton of money to sustain a wife and a family, just enought to sustain our basic needs, share a few workouts with the bros and buy a couple of books and classic vynil ^^ so we will not spend our life building the fuc... pyramids, hope the pharaoh, chad, stacy and emma will not be disappointed if the pyramids are less impressive than back then XD

all joke aside, you make some good points sir :)

[–]auto-xkcd370 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

lame ass-weak chin


Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This comment was inspired by xkcd#37

[–]jax006Wants to bang ~20% of PPD chicks-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

My entire point is that civilization is the process whereby certain expected outcomes arise from codified behavior.

Except this isnt how it works. This thinking is a big problem with society these days - "oh I'll just chug away go get my 4 year degree and then I'll have a job and all shall be well!"

love is not nearly the same kind of “expected outcome” as labor in a fair society.

It's the same in that if you ask most reasonable people they would say "yea if you work hard at your goals, find ways to increase you value, you'll be successful in your (job/lovelife)" I would say most people hold that sentiment.

People who hold the sentiment that "fair (whatever fair means?) compensation for labor" is an entitlement are equally delusional to those who think love or sex is.

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

That’s a magnificent strawperson. (We don’t assume gender in the feminist dystopia). I qualified the hell out of my argument to avoid this, too.

An engineer feeds labor hours into their firm. They are entitled to their pay, which is generally an expected and agreed upon amount. That is clear. In addition, Someone who works SHOULD be entitled to a living wage. That’s how i personally define fair. I agree we can argue the point, but it’s beside this one because...

Love and sex are fundamentally different. There is no sex firm you can pay your labor into and be entitled to X amount of sex (again, aside from hookers). There are no standards where love engineers are understood to earn a love range of 60,000 to 90,000 love units annually as entry level. Because these things operate according to completely different incentive structures. If you try and apply the incentive structures of professional achievement to sex you end up with utterly weird ass inhuman expectations that... idk, it’s self evident to me why it’s nonsensical. Feel free to use that framework if it works for you?

[–]jax006Wants to bang ~20% of PPD chicks-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

An engineer feeds labor hours into their firm. They are entitled to their pay

They are entitled to whatever end of the exchange their employer is willing to hold up. Some engineers feed alot more labour hours into their employer and are yet payed alot less. You're only entitled to what the other entity will trade in exchange for what you give them.

This isnt all that fundamentally different than love or sex, although it seems alot easier to define and objectify because we can hang on things like average salary measurements and labor laws. However, you can generally do the same thing with love. most people end up in reasonably successful relationships if they feed effort into their overall attractiveness

I think it's pretty hard to argue this here on PPD. Go ahead and make the argument that in large part people who work hard to make themselves more attractive and work hard to out themselves out in the dating market are not as likely to succeed in their respective market as an engineer who puts effort and labor hours into developing their skills and benefiting their firm.

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

It’s the difference between expectation / hope and ENTITLEMENT. Which was, btw, the entire crux of this post.

Yes. Someone who does all those things is likely to have romantic success but is not ENTITLED to it. Just like Someone who wants a job really badly is not ENTITLED to it.

Someone who has a job IS entitled to their income. There is no aspect of love that can fall under the umbrella of entitlement.

[–]jax006Wants to bang ~20% of PPD chicks-3 points-2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Someone who has a job IS entitled to their income.

I guess this is the crux of our argument; this isnt true IMO

It seems true for lots of people in the US with our booming economy and our labor laws but it's pretty easy to just imagine the hypothetical with a small business owner. Is a small business owner entitled to income just based on "having a job"???

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If this is really the weird libertarian hill you wanna hold down, go for it! The difference between a business owner and an employee is precisely that one has traded their labor for an income they are very much entitled to by the standards (both legal and social) of own society. A small business owner has traded that security for the upside of higher potential returns. They aren’t entitled to income. But are entitled to a lot of other formal legal rights that are just part of our culture in practice.

I’m satisfied with how this exchange looks on my end, have the last word if you want it.

[–]jax006Wants to bang ~20% of PPD chicks-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The difference between a business owner and an employee is precisely that one has traded their labor for an income they are very much entitled to by the standards (both legal and social) of own society.

This stands high on top of the assumption that after they "trade their labor" the person they traded it to can and will pay them, and otherwise society will be able and willing to pay them. It's really not that hard to imagine scenarios where neither of those things are a correct assumption (hint: look up Donald Trump's business dealings in NYC and how many people were "entitled to income for their labor" lol)

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Entitlements refer to things which you are legally entitled to

There are plenty of such things

[–]jax006Wants to bang ~20% of PPD chicks0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would agree love or sex is not a legal entitlement. I dont think theres anyone save for a negligible minority who acts or behaves like love or sex is legally entitled.

Nice Guys complaining that they cant get laid are not acting like they're legally entitled to getting laid, and so to tell them "hey, fuck off, you arent (legally) entitled to sex buddy!" Is fucking stupid and avoids the actual problem which is that those guys are not exhibiting attractive traits.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill39 points40 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

they might as well say they are not entitled to love, romance or companionship

I mean, yeah, you're not entitled to those either. No one has to love you or anyone else if they don't want to. You can say this to women as well and the logic still holds. It might be a bit harsh sounding but it's still accurate.

3rd wave feminism is theoretically not opposed to those things (even though we know they often criticize them

Forgive me, but this sounds like you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence. 3rd wave feminism has no problem with women choosing to do what they want with their own bodies. That includes sex work. But they are still allowed to be critical of the sex industry, and how it employs predatory practices to lure poor women into the industry. Or how sex trafficking can blend into the industry without proper oversight.

[–]JaJammerJan 1 points [recovered]  (7 children) | Copy Link

What world do you live in where 3rd wave feminism has no problems with women choosing to use their sexual attractiveness? Not this world.

Or are you saying that something like banning grid girls from the F1 sports is not third wave feminism? Because this explanation for it definitely sounds like feminism:

Yes, the 'grid girls' chose to do it, and yes they were paid for the pleasure. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man or woman deciding that they want to take on a job with little real purpose. What was -- and still is -- wrong is the impression created, giving girls to think that men are mechanics and engineers and drivers and more, while women are pretty and mute.

That's what Formula One and the FIA were trying to do away with when they announced the 'grid girl' ban, and that's a message being undermined by the presence of promotional models on the grid, irrespective of their gender identity.

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That sounds a little more 2nd wavey to me personally, but Let’s be real, there are no hard and fast standards here. Generally third wavers are sometimes criticized as arguing anything women choose to do for their benefit is valid from a feminist POV. Thus as long as the grid girls are happy (and perhaps as long as there is a career path for other options) their choice is valid. In my opinion too many people make too much about whether certain things are or aren’t feminist, but i could very much imagine certain 3rd wavers going to the curb over these girls’ rights to wear hot pants next to cars.

Get on very neo second wave sites like feminist current, and you will see feminists arguing against third wave tendencies to accommodate the male pleasure principle in the name of choice. All these ideologies are very nebulous, and the decisions are made by some corporate PR person in this case anyway. Academic feminism is not the right lens to look at ass covering corporate decisions.

This is my emotional labor typing this shit out so some woman doesn’t have to. I’m gonna go look at feminist porn now as a form of self care. /s

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Let’s be real, there are no hard and fast standards here.

Pretty much this. Feminism is hardly a monolith that believes only one thing. There are a lot of different beliefs and theories that fall under that umbrealla. Sex negative feminism is a thing, although sex positive feminism is the more wildly accepted belief.

Academic feminism is not the right lens to look at ass covering corporate decisions.

Highlighting this as well. Capitalist America is hardly feminist by choice. They portray token feminism if it means they can profit off of it. But it's just that, token. Actual meaningful changes are less likely to be done voluntarily by corporations

[–]petrichordiummidsommar pill2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks! It feels good being a dutiful male feminist, and this woke labor is gonna be worth sooooo much sex. Errr, i mean, just doing my part.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Congratulations, the feminist hivemind has informed me that you have earned +1 Ally tokens. Please accept it and store it with all the tests. You can redeem 1,000 Ally tokens for 1 Sex. So sayeth the hive mind.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is hardly a monolith that believes only one thing

Yet so often it does. As feminists make zero attempt to categorize different feminist beliefs outside of TERF, radical and mainstream. Which is by and large useless. As if feminists did what political parties do it would help loads. As when someone says they are a democrat or a republican you generally have a baseline understanding of what they are for and against.

Sex negative feminism is a thing, although sex positive feminism is the more wildly accepted belief.

And yet even sex positive feminism is really nothing more than sex negative feminism in the end.

Capitalist America is hardly feminist by choice.

Nor should it be feminist.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I like how you're blaming Formula One and FIA for their decision to drop grid girls. To my knowledge there never was a huge feminist push against them. They might not of liked them, but Formula One and FIA dropped them of their own volition. You'll have to bring it up those gripes with them.

[–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminists actually made a huge stink over them actually and went on tv even to push for it.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple22 points23 points  (114 children) | Copy Link

It's not a stretch to say you aren't entitled to a romantic partner.

It means you can't make someone have sex with you or be with you romantically unless they agree to it! The only reason humans partner up at all is because they have a biological drive to. And since there are billions of humans to pair up with, they don't have to pick the first one who wants them.

And if you try to do it without them agreeing to it, well, there's a special place for you.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller20 points21 points  (113 children) | Copy Link

Nobody is arguing this.

The entitlement argument is weak because nobody is entitled to anything, deep down. Ok. But that’s not the point. When feminists use it, it’s usually to avoid uncomfortable questions more than as a serious point.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (58 children) | Copy Link

Youre entitled to lots of things. Goods and services you've paid for, wages you've earned, protection and rights under your nation's laws, not to be unduly harmed. When you were a child, you were entitled to parental care or adult guardianship.

You're not entitled to feelings, like being happy, loved, or respected.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though8 points9 points  (57 children) | Copy Link

Unless you are a woman. In that case you have the right to feel safe when you (insert anything here).

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (35 children) | Copy Link

People are only entitled to feel safe in the sense that they are entitled to not have someone make direct threats against them. That falls into lawful entitlements, which apply to everyone.

There is no such thing as entitlement to any emotion or state of being, period.

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure4 points5 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

Can’t you make the argument that people are not entitled to kindness as well though?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely. No one is entitled to kindness. Why would they be? Kindness would lose all meaning if it were a requirement

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure1 point2 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

What separates kindness from hostility then?

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

People are entitled to be hostile as well. As long as they dont cross a lawful boundary. You can tell me to fuck off if I say good morning. It might hurt my feelings, but my rights have not been violated.

Seriously, do you want people to do kind to you because they have to?

[–]TheBookOfSeilAn ounce of Snu Snu is worth a pound of cure1 point2 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

No. I’m just trying to make a point that people are not really entitled to anything. Good or bad, whatever happens to them - happens, and nobody is entitled to a safe place to feel comfortable. The lions, tigers and bears certainly wouldn’t care what our laws are if they were hungry.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

I agree. Tell that to (certain groups) of feminists though.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

What's your point? That some people feel entitled to things they are not entitled to?

That's literally the point of this thread. Everyone knows entitled people exist.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

My point is that there are some people that can be entitled and be accepted/celebrated for it by a significant ammount of the population.

Of course entitled people can find niches and small communities where they are accepted/celebrated. But is not the same.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

If that attitude was accepted, then society would make it a true entitlement. Obviously, that's never going to happen.

Entitled feminists are celebrated hy entitled feminists. Entitled incels and celebrated by entitled incels. The rest of us don't give a shit how the feel.

Entitlements are entitlements because enough people agreed they should be.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I can see your point.

Maybe I give too much importance to the fact that incels are considered terrorists/losers by most people and entitled feminist don't recieve that much of a blowback.

[–]SkrattGoddess4 points5 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

It's not about feeling safe, it's about being safe. Idk why that bothers you so much.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though2 points3 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

I am not bothered by anyone wanting to be safe.

[–]SkrattGoddess0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

Idk, I don't have an argument because you're being vague. The right to feel safe where...? XD

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though3 points4 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Just one example.

Walking at night.

I have no problem if someone wants to be safe when walking outside at night.

I have a problem with someone who wants to feel safe when walking outside at night.

There are some feminist groups that argue they hace the right to feel safe in certain circumstances. I say they don't have such right.

[–]oodsigma1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Just one example.

Walking at night.

I have no problem if someone wants to be safe when walking outside at night.

I have a problem with someone who wants to feel safe when walking outside at night.

There are some feminist groups that argue they hace the right to feel safe in certain circumstances. I say they don't have such right.

No, you're missing a key part of their argument. The state of being safe elicits the feeling of being safe. The feminist argument is that since most women don't feel safe walking alone at night, they probably aren't safe. It's not some small minority of paranoid people, it's most women.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Then most women are paranoid.

Men are way more likely to be victims of violent crime.

Are they feeling unsafe all the time? Not really.

Do they feel more unsafe than women given the same circumstances? Not really.

But they are more likely to be victims of violent crime... if we say that women feel unsafe because the lack the state of being safe... then men should feel even more unsafe because they lack that state even more.

It doesn't make any sense. People can feel unsafe when they are perfectly safe.

There are bussiness made around that same concept. Horror movies. Haunted houses. Feminism

Ok the last one is just a low blow. Ignore it. But the point still stands.

[–]SkrattGoddess1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Why? You don't think safety is a feeling that's kind of essential for both men and women?

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think "feelings" are not good things to consider when you are about to write a law.

Feelings are subjective and can't be proven.

[–]bopoll0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I think sex is essential for men and women, but that doesn't mean I think I have a right to it.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Before someone piles up on this argument, I want to throw something in: subjective feelings are a bad yardstick for enacting legal change because they're, well, subjective.

One can expect the state that it does everything in its power to minimize the likelihood that someone becomes the victim of a crime. However, one can't reasonably expect the state to make sure every person also feels safe from crime - because "every person" includes those who are paranoid and anxious as well. And to add insult to injury, we also have to take the claim of these persons at face value; which means that even if they made everything up the state would still have to bow to their demands.

However, SJWs of all stripes are trying to do exactly that.

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank god someone here said it before me. I was beginning to think I was insane.

Feelings are not a good way to define anything when it is time to create laws.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They feel that they are entitled but rarely get their way irl . Massive bitching ensues

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple6 points7 points  (46 children) | Copy Link

it’s usually to avoid uncomfortable questions more than as a serious point.

Do you have an example of that?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Feminists like to throw this around mostly on two occasions: one is about Nice GuysTM who are frustrated and hurt that the girls they're into don't reciprocate; and instead of mustering a minimum of empathy about how they might suck, they accuse these guys of only wanting sex (for various reasons) instead of giving the guy the benefit of the doubt and accepting that it might actually suck to not be valued by another person you value (or being valued far less).

The other situation is men being in relationships and feminists arguing that even then you aren't entitled to sex, which is something only someone who is only taking the female perspective into account would say.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple7 points8 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

When nice guys vent about not being able to court someone, they are just want the world to say "that sucks"? I imagine nice guys just want their advances to work! They want a solution to their problem. Not for a woman they like to say "I don't want to be with you, I imagine that must suck for you."

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

That's true, but feminists usually add insult to injury by making the guy out to be the bad guy for feeling the way he feels. Why? Because they're feminists, and whatever men do, they interpret it in the least charitable way possible and equate the guy in question with the worst guy who has found himself in a comparable situation.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple6 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Maybe it's a perpetuating cycle of bolstering these examples. But there are just more examples of men acting predatory or cruel in response to not getting sex.

So if your response to being rejected is to be predatory or cruel, most people aren't going to be charitable.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Nah, I don't buy it. I know quite a number of guys who got friendzoned and taken advantage of, and quite a number of women who did that to guys, but only one dude acted the way feminists pretend is the norm.

Maybe the women at PPD here would get the idea if men collectively started to paint all women who were used for sex like the chick in Fatal Attraction. You get pumped and dumped by a guy and are frustrated? You're probably just an entitled crazy chick who thinks that she's entitled to a relationship for spreading her legs, and would smear the guy publicly and kill his pets if he doesn't reciprocate.

Alas, in our gynocentric society, women who get pumped & dumped are more likely to get empathy than being vilified.

[–]kandyapplezborn in '91 👸 💅6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Nah, I don't buy it.

you don't really have to buy it, women have pretty much given up trying to justify our reactions to these men. were done arguing about our experiences which is why we have collectively started just shrugging and saying "sucks to suck"

men expect empathy from women but have none for us. so now the reverse is true as well

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS-2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Unless more than a minuscule percentage of all men who ever had a crush you didn't reciprocate went ballistic without you doing anything to warrant such a reaction*, your argument is invalid.

*and, frankly, it would be quite in character for you had you contributed to such a situation

[–]adool444-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're probably just an entitled crazy chick who thinks that she's entitled to relationship for spreading her legs, and would smear the guy publicly and kill his pets if she doesn't reciprocate.

Dude so true. The last part was an exaggeration but girls get so mad when put in the fuckzone.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller-2 points-1 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

For exemple:

What to think about the romantically & sexually unsuccessful men who follow the feminist manifesto to the letter?

What to think about the seemingly contradictory counter exemples of women seeking men who don’t fit the feminist check list for non toxic males over woke ones?

Those are innocuous questions in appearance, but their only logical answers would require to either admit there is some inconsistencies in the philosophy or expend some empathy to lonely men. Two impossible choices, so they deflect by arguing that lonely men complaining about it feel entitled, when they are actually less likely to feel so than their more successful peers.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple5 points6 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

If a man was truly feminist and couldn't get a partner, I don't think he'd be accused of feeling entitled to sex because I don't think he would be pushing boundaries.

Male sexuality is definitely demonized within feminism. No way around that. And there's a lot of reasons why they'd come to that conclusion. Male sexuality is considered predatory in it's nature. Rapists are typically male.

[–]adool4441 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I don't think you they get called entitled for pushing boundaries. The get called entitled for complaining. They would be getting laid more if they pushed boundaries.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

They'd get laid if they were considered physically attractive to the woman they are pursuing.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's a very female perspective.

Let me assure you as a man that unless you're so highly attractive that women throw themselves at you by default, pushing boundaries is extremely important - actually even moreso than looks (unless you break aforementioned looks threshold).

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't empathize because I'm not the kind of woman who waits for a man to approach.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Congratulations on being super-rare.

[–]adool4440 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agree they should lower their standards.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Oh but male sexuality is way more dangerous than female one, I’m not denying this.

My main issue is when, in the name of progress, activists feel justified to throw miserable men under the bus, making them believe their lack of success is a lack of feminist virtue (how convenient). The frustration these men feel when they see their asshole misogynistic friends get laid every week or so meanwhile is the very fuel of TRP and similar movement

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Their lack of success isn't due to a lack of feminist virtue, but the critical response to the man's reaction to rejection is due to a lack of feminist virtue.

There are countless reasons why I man can't get a particular woman to have sex with them, and I very much doubt that just acting in ordinance with female empowerment is going to get you there.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Their lack of success isn't due to a lack of feminist virtue, but the critical response to the man's reaction to rejection is due to a lack of feminist virtue.

Mood control and stoicism in the face of rejection is one of the main lesson from TRP, I wouldn’t call that feminist virtue.

There are countless reasons why I man can't get a particular woman to have sex with them, and I very much doubt that just acting in ordinance with female empowerment is going to get you there.

Thus the questions men ask themselves in that situation: who is the closer to the truth when it comes to the reason of my loneliness? Who can help me the most effectively?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Their lack of success isn't due to a lack of feminist virtue, but the critical response to the man's reaction to rejection is due to a lack of feminist virtue.

If we consider "suffering in silence regardless of what you go through if you're male" to be a feminist virtue (and one could make a decent case for that), you're right.

However, not adhering to feminist virtues doesn't automatically make someone's objections illegitimate.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Rapiste are typically male

CDC numbers say women rape as much as men.

Many male rapists were sexually abused by women when they were young, too.

Edit: downvoted because the truth about men being raped is uncomfortable?

[–]kandyapplezborn in '91 👸 💅6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

CDC numbers say women rape as much as men.

Lol

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The truth about rape is funny?

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It'd like to see that study where it says women rape as frequently as men.

In a survey answered by hundreds of rape and sexual assault support agencies, they estimated that 93.7 percent of male rape perpetrators are male and 6.3 percent were female.

https://thehathorlegacy.com/rape-statistics/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

However, if the CDC figures are to be taken at face value, then we must also conclude that, far from being a product of patriarchal violence against women, “rape culture” is a two-way street, with plenty of female perpetrators and male victims.

How could that be? After all, very few men in the CDC study were classified as victims of rape: 1.7 percent in their lifetime, and too few for a reliable estimate in the past year. But these numbers refer only to men who have been forced into anal sex or made to perform oral sex on another male. Nearly 7 percent of men, however, reported that at some point in their lives, they were “made to penetrate” another person—usually in reference to vaginal intercourse, receiving oral sex, or performing oral sex on a woman. This was not classified as rape, but as “other sexual violence.”

And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.

[–]kandyapplezborn in '91 👸 💅1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

you literally linked an article arguing that the CDCs methodology for gathering rape statistics is misleading and the author used their inflated male reports as proof of why....ummm lol

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill5 points6 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

What to think about the romantically & sexually unsuccessful men who follow the feminist manifesto to the letter?

That it sucks. And I would like to help them improve so that they feel happy and fulfilled in life. That happiness needs to come from within ideally. And help them improve themselves so that they are both happy and not depending on romantic validation. That there are things you can do to help with dating that doesn't involve treating women like the enemy.

What to think about the seemingly contradictory counter exemples of women seeking men who don’t fit the feminist check list for non toxic males over woke ones?

Women =/= feminists. Feminists have a problem with the same structure that enables and rewards toxic behavior as you do. It's not contradictory at all.

I actually have a lot of empathy for lonely men. And I try to help them out when able. But my patience wears thin for lonely men who refuse any and all help. Or for the lonely men who refuse to self reflect and instead just blame everyone else for their problems.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That there are things you can do to help with dating that doesn't involve treating women like the enemy.

You're right, perceiving them as prey serves you better.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Feminists have a problem with the same structure that enables and rewards toxic behavior as you do. It's not contradictory at all.

No structure is at the root of this, but rather, millions of year of evolution barely masked by a thin layer of delusion as to why people behave the way they do. For nearly every male behavior that could be defined as feminist friendly, you can show how it negatively impact their chances when it comes to dating, from doing chores in the house to daring to be vulnerable. Whatever the reason for this, it won’t be fixed by sassy tweets from feminists writers in Brooklyn nor removing bad archetypes from popular culture.

I actually have a lot of empathy for lonely men. And I try to help them out when able. But my patience wears thin for lonely men who refuse any and all help. Or for the lonely men who refuse to self reflect and instead just blame everyone else for their problems.

A lot of these men frustrate me too. But compare the public perception of these lonely men with what is arguably their women counterpart: women with slut reputations. In both cases, they have failed to live up to society’s expectation for their gender. But it’s somehow way more acceptable to berate the virgin men than the sexually liberated women. You could say to one to reconsider their choices, but that would be a huge offense for the other.

And finally, why would lonely men listen to feminists given that their advice just don’t work?

[–]Director-D4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

But it’s somehow way more acceptable to berate the virgin men than the sexually liberated women.

That isn’t true. People past the ages of high school don’t berate virgin men and women who are considered “slutty” are still heavily socially stigmatized.

And finally, why would lonely men listen to feminists given that their advice just don’t work?

According to who? RPers? Most RP fail at relationships due to lack of introspection and projection.

feminist advise isn’t the only other advise though. Why don’t they listen to actual psychologists that study relationships and their advise rather than TRP garbage. They have good advise that works and isn’t misogynistic and those communities aren’t filled with misinformation or horribly done studies.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

That isn’t true. People past the ages of high school don’t berate virgin men and women who are considered “slutty” are still heavily socially stigmatized.

How deluded can one be? It’s ok to be slutty in 2018. It’s empowering. Check out the current pop stars, instagram models, popular movies and viral tweets. No shame whatsoever, it’s almost totally gone. You can express how much you love to suck dick and how many guys you fucked and get book deals .

You don’t hear virgin men saying how proud they are however, right? The movies about them are to mock them and “virgin” is one of Internet’s favorite insult. Show me a few exemple of virgin men casually admitting they are so and being celebrated for it? And obviously, I think it’s pretty known that admitting to be a virgin is ironically a serious blow to a guys chance to get laid.

feminist advise isn’t the only other advise though. Why don’t they listen to actual psychologists that study relationships and their advise rather than TRP garbage. They have good advise that works and isn’t misogynistic and those communities aren’t filled with misinformation or horribly done studies.

What kind of advice is that? What does it says that TRP don’t? And you do actually concede that feminists give poor dating advice to men and thus shouldn’t be listened then?

[–]Director-D1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Your whole first paragraph talks about celebrities. Celebrities aren’t the norm.

Women being provocative has always sold very in media well even back in the 80s with Madonna and further back into the 50s with Marilyn Monroe. That isn’t a new thing. Just because something is accepted with celebrities doesn’t mean it is accepted in normal life. Marilyn Monroe was selling huge during a time when being a “slut” would completely ruin a girls social reputation. Just because sex sells, doesn’t mean it is praised or accepted in normal life.

You don’t hear virgin men saying how proud they are

You don’t hear people saying how proud they are, but you also don’t see anyone giving a fuck if a person is a virgin or not... Seriously. No one cares if a person is a virgin (again, maybe other than immature high school boys)

I think it’s pretty known that admitting to be a virgin is ironically a serious blow to a guys chance to get laid.

Not true. It is not due to the fact that they are a virgin that they are having problems.

It is much more likely to be that they have other things that cause them to be a virgin instead. Their inherent virgin-ness isn’t the reason they are having issues. Having sex once doesn’t all of a sudden make one a god or change their life in any way.

What does it says that TRO don’t?

Well they don’t blame their issues on women, don’t have a huge boner for trying to fake overly-masculine traits, don’t encourage dark triad personality traits, have advise that is backed by actual peer-reviewed research and not a lot of extremely poorly done “studies” (if you can call most of them that), they incorporate a lot of life and self-improvement tactics beyond “just work out bro”, and actually have advise on forming real connections with the opposite sex rather than just poor advise on “how to LARP as chad in order to beat women at their own game”.

And you do actually concede that feminists give poor dating advice to men and thus shouldn’t be listened then?

What? I didn’t concede anything... you were just basically stating that feminist advise doesn’t work which is why I assume you chose TRP. I was just saying that if you don’t like feminist advise, that there are a lot of other advise groups for men that aren misogynistic. I don’t even know what “feminist advise” for men is since I don’t read too many feminist articles.

I was just curious why of all the advise for men out there, why you would pick the one group of advise that is misogynistic. There there are a lot of other groups with better, more researched, advise without all the conspiracy theories and women hate. I was just giving you other places to look for advise that don’t have the sexist garbage that TRP support.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Your whole first paragraph talks about celebrities. Celebrities aren’t the norm.

Celebrities are a very reliable reflection of society’s attitude.

Let me remind you that slut shaming is statistically primarily done by women toward women. It doesn’t make sense in the feminist paradigm, but in the actual correct scientific model of m/f relationship, that’s called intrasexual competition and it makes perfect sense. So once again, one model is way off and the other fits the reality.

Will there be backlash toward “sluts”? Yes, there’s backlash against pretty much any thing out of he norm. You have to operate on bad faith not to admit it’s far from being the liability it used to be.

You don’t hear people saying how proud they are, but you also don’t see anyone giving a fuck if a person is a virgin or not... Seriously. No one cares if a person is a virgin (again, maybe other than immature high school boys)

Fantasy. You’re basing your claims on what? Personal experience? Maybe you live in Kumbaya land where you and your friend doesn’t care but maybe you should actually try to listen to the men who live in shame because virginity in them is seen as a shameful baggage. The only reason you dismiss it is not because you genuinely think society is ok with, but because it would mean you have to reconsider a few elements of your theory.

Not true. It is not due to the fact that they are a virgin that they are having problems.

Ironically, you are yourself proving that the first instinct of people when confronted with male virgin is to search what’s wrong with them, ignoring their own struggles , which is not even at odd with women’s, but the recognition that society is not actually totally pro-men is not possible for brainwashed feminists so their problems are mocked or belittled. As if you couldn’t care about several things at a time.

Well they don’t blame their issues on women, don’t have a huge boner for trying to fake overly-masculine traits, don’t encourage dark triad personality traits, have advise that is backed by actual peer-reviewed research and not a lot of extremely poorly done “studies” (if you can call most of them that), they incorporate a lot of life and self-improvement tactics beyond “just work out bro”, and actually have advise on forming real connections with the opposite sex rather than just poor advise on “how to LARP as chad in order to beat women at their own game”.

The fact that this is how you think TRP works is enough for me to bribe you hab no idea what’s your talking about.

The peer reviewed studies are really really not feminists friendly. Why do you think they had to create separate faculties in universities? The actual evidence overwhelmingly goes in the direction of TRP’s conclusion. Just take a look at r/BlackPillScience

There isn’t a single aspect of human sexual behavior that is best explained by feminists than by TRP. Now, are people who browse TRP great people I’d like to hang out with? No. But the general conclusions of their movement are the good ones and that’s why it attracts so much people.

TRP main value is to teach to men how women actually works, behind the curtains.

I was just curious why of all the advise for men out there, why you would pick the one group of advise that is misogynistic. There there are a lot of other groups with better, more researched, advise without all the conspiracy theories and women hate. I was just giving you other places to look for advise that don’t have the sexist garbage that TRP support.

I’m not an incel nor do I struggle with dating, but it doesn’t change that TRP changed my understanding of human mating behavior better than anything else. Feminists advice is absolutely trash. And because by refuse to see the men who follow them without success, those men turn to extreme sources. There could have been a less vitriolic, more respectful TRP but because of peoples dogmatism when it comes to the topic, it’s the best thing out there to help guys. You don’t understand because I don’t think you actually try to understand anything

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

No structure is at the root of this, but rather, millions of year of evolution

I think that would heavily depend on what traits we are talking about here. Evolution provides some base impulses from the primal section of the brain, but these can and are overridden all the time by concious behavior. Plus a lot of evopsych theories out there are false. The originator of alpha and beta males recanted those theories after he realized he wasnt looking at all the data. And Bonobos, one of our closest primate relatives, live in a matriarchal society. Evolution has its impact, but a lot of people over inflate its significance.

But it’s somehow way more acceptable to berate the virgin men than the sexually liberated women.

Yupp, and this is unacceptable. Its partly that way because women made more efforts to break their gender roles a while ago whereas men are only now beginning to question theirs. And many men out there choose to embrace their role rather than drop it. TRP is a good example of this, in that a mans n count is tied to his worth. This feeds into the idea that virgin men are therefore worthless. Personally, I think it's better to drop any status attached to high quantity low quality sex and our societies obsession with virginity.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think that would heavily depend on what traits we are talking about here. Evolution provides some base impulses from the primal section of the brain, but these can and are overridden all the time by concious behavior.

Do you know why more women study science in countries where gender inequality is the greatest (yep, greatest)? That’s because in more gender equal countries, this pressure from society is actually lower and that means gender differences are actually more pronounced. Conscious override of your instinct would be for you to get with a man you don’t like because society says so and end up liking him. But in a free society, you are the slave to your impulses and your nature is actually more relevant than ever. This is why this male loneliness thing is bigger than before, because there used to be societal mechanisms overriding our true nature.

And let’s be clear: I’m not saying that’s bad at all. And I don’t want to limit this to “well, that’s nature, that’s how it is”. But it should be taken into account.

And Bonobos, one of our closest primate relatives, live in a matriarchal society.

Nope, that’s a myth

Yupp, and this is unacceptable. Its partly that way because women made more efforts to break their gender roles a while ago whereas men are only now beginning to question theirs.

You know, as a parenthesis, I used to be a feminist too and so it’s funny to read the arguments I used to lay out myself. Here’s the thing: this male / female liberation idea is asymmetrical.

Men cannot break their gender role because it’s a guarantee of lack of partners. Yep.

-Women are less likely to date men who had sexual relationships with other men in the past than the opposite.

-Men who do the most chores get less sex

-Marriages where the women earns more than the men are way more likely to end up in divorce and less likely to happen at all

Add to this short men being less desirable and other elements and you quickly realize that not only men in general have a harder time getting relationships, which is ok and normal, but also that if they do not conform to the stereotype of a tall, strong, dominant and rich man, their chances drop even faster. I’m a progressive myself but I won’t gamble my sexual life on the principle that men gender role is flexible - it is not, and women are partly to blame for that, yes.

The day men will see the actual non toxic male get ahead, they will naturally turn around. Until then, it’s only wishful thinking.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Woo, lot to process here. I might miss somethings but I did actually read it all, so your effort was not in vain.

So first off, I am familiar that women in more feminist countries pick stem majors less frequently. We can argue all day as to why that is, but it does indicate something. But more feminists societies I would hesitate to argue are more free, merely subject to different forces. In particular in America would be capitalistic pressures. My ability to be free is directly tied to how much money I make. The richer I am, the more I can do instead of have to do. Men and women are not 100% the same, and I don't think they every will ever be, but I dont want to use that as an excuse to stop trying to make society better and more accepting.

Male loneliness is actually a really big issue. And is becoming more and more severe as time goes on. This needs to be addressed but when I think of Male loneliness, I think how little friends men have as they get older. Where they have no one else in their life except for family and kids. Its incredibly isolating, and happiness has been shown to be higher in countries with more social interaction and less solitude. There's no magic bullet for that problem, but one of the best ways to combat it is for men to get out more and get involved with something social.

Men and women's liberation is asymmetrical, partly because the system they were stuck in was asymmetrical as well. Cant have the same solution exist for different problems. I am familiar that women have a prejudice against bisexual men, men also have a prejudice against bisexual women (namely they dont treat it as equal to hetero relationships). Bisexuals actually have a much greater chance of being victims of domestic violence than anyone. That's something society needs to work on and learn to accept. Marriages where the woman earns more than the man end mostly because of the man. A lot of men resent being the lesser paid spouse and it ends up souring the dynamic. This is less to do with women not accepting the man and more the man not wanting to accept not being the breadwinner.

And here is the crux of the issue. Men breaking free from their gender roles will not get them uber amounts of sex. But that shouldn't be the reason for it. Men shouldn't be tied to their gender roles and should be who they want to be for themselves. I'm really empathetic with people, that's more of a feminine trait, but it's also who I am and I'm proud of that. I dont do it to get laid. Men need to stop tying putting casual sex on a pedestal. A mans n count should have no relation to his self worth. His self worth should stem from things he likes and things he is proud of. The goal here is to be happy and true to ourselves. The goal is not to get laid. Which is a hard thing for a lot of men to come to grips with.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok, I’m gonna try to be succinct for this one:

I think you make the mistake of a lot of feminists, ie, putting morality over reality.

Society never change just because. It changes with intentional, organized action in the limit of our human nature. In a perfect world, men and women would be free to do what they want and be whoever they want to be. Such world doesn’t exist however and the one we’re is cold not as pretty.

I don’t really care about men and women being different and I dont think it should be a deterrent to trying to make things more equal, in a certain measure, especially when it comes to power.

But it doesn’t mean that the root of our behavior isn’t rooted in evolution and, to me, that should be a feminist point - that way we would understand why it’s wrong to blame women who divorce their husbands when they earn more- because, contrary to what you’re advancing, the data shows that they are indeed the one who get fed up. Feminists are trying to spin it this way but the raw studies are clear. And it’s ok. Same thing with their unwillingness to date shorter men.

To fight this, you need to understand why evolution would create this trend in the first place. Only then could you override it with society. But denying this by framing it in a context of fight to pick who is the more virtuous gender is useless.

Men won’t be breaking anything just because. They need some incentive. Sex is probably men’s greatest incentive and you’re actually saying that they should work to emancipate themselves from their archetype even if that mean reducing sex. They would rather have sex and live peacefully, and so do I. Thus their endless quest to find how to fit the part of what women seem to want.

But hey, m/f relationships are not as bad as people make it to be. But they’re not getting better and will get worse as long as people get seated on their deeply held beliefs without an open mind

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is obviously false, most people do have actual real tangible things they are entitled to. When you call someone "entitled" the implication is that they think they deserve special treatment or access to something.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The whole premise of attraction and love is a strong endearment with another person, and the need to be around them, speaking to them, have sex with them, etc...

When this attraction in non reciprocal, well, that’s it, the whole thing is legitimately over, but that doesn’t mean people are able to get over it instantly. So they ramble and cry and complain until they feel better. They do not feel “entitled” so much as they feel grief for the idea they had of their relationship.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What are some of these uncomfortable questions?

[–]SkrattGoddess5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

'Uncomfortable', lol. They just want you to get out their face xD Normal feminists aren't bothered by these men at all unless they enter their space talking about feminism has made it impossible for them to get laid. That's when they tell them to fuck off.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And yet the harpy shriek of feminists against TRP is deafening.

In their space... Ha!

Tell feminists to get out of men's spaces and give the incels a place to vent instead of insisting every incel site be shut down.

[–]SkrattGoddess7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

From what I'm understanding most feminists are unbothered by you and /r/incels. It's the Reddit admins that keep shutting that shit down after seeing "women should be legal at age 13" on the front page.

Seems like you're more obsessed with them than vice versa. Every other thread on TRP or the incel subs is about feminism. Go on TwoX or AskFeminists or even man-hating GenderCritical and very rarely do they speak on either sub unless they're annoyed about something.

[–]sawouthkayCool and Smart Black Purple Piller0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

“Normal feminists” aren’t bothered by much else than themselves tbh

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most of the time I see the 'men are not entitled to sex' quote as a response rather than an absolute, since some men do seem to believe that they are entitled to sex, or otherwise as a 'line' that's been repeated so many times as to lose most of it's meaning. In use, it often seems to mean, at this point 'please shut up about why hypergamy or whatever is the reason you've been slighted out of the nubile girl of your dreams and take some responsibility for your situation'.

Not a great and persuasive rhetorical strategy, but it's become sort of a arguing-language-meme among some groups.

[–]VermiciousKnidzzBlue Pill Man6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

because, i've heard, most women have experiences with men getting real pissed off when their sexual advances are rejected

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.10 points11 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Probably because it’s in response to the whole “nice guy” thing where he thinks he deserves sex due to being nice/courteous or whatever. Idk what other context you’ve seen this used in.

From my understanding the whole “not entitled to sex” thing is like a buzzphrase referring to the “nice guy” trope.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer12 points13 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

They typically say it in response to someone acting as if they are entitled to sex.

[–]LSTW12348 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Right. Men don’t act entitled to love, so it’s not something anyone feels the need to say.

[–]SkrattGoddess3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's about the fact that you're upset that a woman won't 'give' you love or sex, but aren't really doing anything on your own to attract that energy. The way sex is worded here is like a cookie that women give out to men they like and ignore everyone else but this is an act based on attraction. If you want someone to sleep with you, you need to do something to make them attracted to you. Sex isn't just a free cookie that we can give a man out of sympathy.

[–]SAC-Lawn_Gnome 1 points [recovered]  (17 children) | Copy Link

It seems to me to have grown into a convenient quip to escape having to have serious discussions about issues that paint women in a negative light.

[–]Here4thebeer3232No Pill4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What discussions would you like to have.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London6 points7 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

what type of discussion would this look like? Seriously how does it get to "you are entitled!"???

What's the starting point?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The usual friendzone discussion for example.

Guy is into girl, guy does favors and all other sorts of shit for girl and orbits her (because he doesn't know better), girl enjoys it and milks the guy for everything he's worth, guy at some points realizes he's taken for a ride and becomes resentful and cuts contact (maybe with some vitriol thrown in the direction of girl), feminist derails the whole argument (and deflect from the shitty behavior of girl) by claiming that the guy is an asshole who only wanted sex.

VERY common, at least on the internet.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's called a covert contract and it's pretty much the NiceGuytm trope. What other conversation could you have about this? The dude engaged in certain behaviors because he expected something in return and got butthurt when he didn't get that. You can't mow your neighbor's lawn while he's at work and staple an invoice to his door and expect payment.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

My post wasn't about covert contracts (though they play an unfortunate role in the mating game and thoroughly suck), but about the fact that the NiceGuy's genuine (if misguided) feelings of affection are usually maliciously framed as him surreptiliously only being after sex (and therefore deserving of all the hate he gets).

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Great answer. I hadn't thought of it that way. Consider my V C'ed.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're welcome.

[–]decoy88Black Male in London4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

at least on the internet.

Bingo

[–]SkrattGoddess4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your ability to get laid is no ones issue but yours. I fail to see how this paints women in a negative light.

[–]SAC-Lawn_Gnome 1 points [recovered]  (5 children) | Copy Link

Why would I wanna have sex with a women? Project harder

[–]SkrattGoddess2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

K buddy

[–]SAC-Lawn_Gnome 1 points [recovered]  (3 children) | Copy Link

You obviously can't comprehend what we're discussing our to social conditioning in our Matriarchal Society

[–]SkrattGoddess2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure.

[–]SAC-Lawn_Gnome 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm glad you're mature enough to accept this basic truth in spite of a lack of complete understanding, it shows a surprisingly high level of maturity and self-awareness

[–]SkrattGoddess3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks man.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Let's be honest - they typically say it to derail an argument, and they also say it when someone is in the right when he's expecting to get sex (f.ex. when he's in a relationship with a person).

[–]Director-D4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Just because you expect it doesn’t mean you are entitled to it. Just because you are in a relationship, it doesn’t mean you are owed sex. There are many reasons why someone might want to wait to have sex or won’t want to give sex right off the bat in a relationship. Demanding that they should give you sex just because they are in a relationship is a douche move and does make the person demanding it entitled.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that feminists behave that a guy isn't even entitled to these expectations in the first place (and may reevaluate accordingly if the woman he's with doesn't meet these expectations) - that he should treat everything a woman deigns to grant to him as some sort of divine gift...

Demanding that they should give you sex just because they are in a relationship is a douche move and does make the person demanding it entitled.

...just as you did, if we simply swap "demand" with "expect".

There are many reasons why someone might want to wait to have sex or won’t want to give sex right off the bat in a relationship.

I was talking about relationships in general, not newly-minted ones.

[–]Director-D-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that feminists behave that a guy isn't even entitled to these expectations in the first place

I don’t hear anyone saying you aren’t entitled to have expectations. They are just criticizing those expectations because they are entitled ones. People are allowed to have those expectations, though it is also fine to criticize those expectations and call them entitled ones.

...just as you did, if we simply swap "demand" with "expect".

“Expecting” that they should give you sex just because they are in a relationship is a douche move and does make the person demanding it entitled.

That better? Putting expecting in there doesn’t change it. Expecting something for just existing in a relationship is a feeling of entitlement.

I was talking about relationships in general, not newly-minted ones.

It doesn’t matter if the relationship is new or 50 years old.... There are many reasons why someone might not want to give sex. If her feelings and thoughts are less important than you getting your rocks off then that is a douche move on your part. Doesn’t change if you are a brand new couple or a couple married for 20 years or more.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks for your demonstration, that mindset (which is wrong on so many levels) is what I talked about.

A person who is entering a relationship is entirely within his (or her) rights to expect sexual intimacy with the partner, unless it's reasonably clear that sex isn't (necessarily) part of the equation (for example because both are around 12 or older than 80, or because one party is asexual and the other can live with that etc.), and do so more than just once every semester or whatever. One can't expect to get sex whenever one wants, or that there aren't sexless episodes (due to poor health, rough patchers etc.), but when sex is more or less off the table, something is seriously wrong - and someone who seriously expects the party on the sex diet to take than in stride and says "you're an entitled douche if you expect to have sex in a relationship" and pats him/herself on the back for being an enlightened individual is a grade A idiot.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A person who is entering a relationship is entirely within his (or her) rights to expect sexual intimacy with the partner

Sure. I never debated this. People can expect intimacy. That doesn’t mean that your significant other should always be willing to give it though. There are a hell of a lot of RP members that believe that if your wife/girlfriend isn’t giving sex than you are “betabux/soy boy/whatever dumb term is popular this week”. That isn’t true.

but when sex is more or less off the table, something is seriously wrong

Not necessarily. There could be many reasons why a person might not want sex for a while. Instead of just expecting sex, it might be a good idea to talk with your significant other or ask them why they haven’t been as intimate lately. They will probably be willing to talk to you about it. That isn’t a bad thing at all. I know RP discourages communicative skills in relationships, but the person you are dating should be a person you have an emotional bond with and should be a person you can talk to issues like that about.Just expecting her to give you sex is ridiculous then.

"you're an entitled douche if you expect to have sex in a relationship"

This is a strawman. I never said to never expect sex. I said don’t expect sex JUST FOR EXISTING IN THE RELATIONSHIP. I think that is completely fair to say. That is the same as saying don’t expect love just because you technically exist in a relationship. Relationships take work and are mostly about two people emotionally connecting with one another and sex should not be the primary focus.

If one person doesn’t feel like sex, they probably have reasons for that. Maybe talk to them about it if it Is becoming a serious issue to you instead of just expecting it. If you are worried more about the sex than your partners feelings, then you are a douche.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex and love are two different things, and no one is entitled to either.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Love doesnt equal sex. Sex doesnt equal love.

[–]Orange_PaisleyOrange pill is best pill2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Fine, you're not entitled to love, romance or companionship, in addition to not being entitled to sex. You can pursue those things, of course, and if you are fortunate you will find someone that will give them to you, but you can't demand them.

[–]Cunari0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But can you demand things that will make it easier to get sex, love, and companionship? A more favorable gender ratio, research into attractiveness science, substitutes?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Just scanning some replies I suspect the confusion here is men thinking sex is just for them, that only men want sex and that it’s something for a woman to give to a man. It’s not. It happens when both the man and woman want it. I doubt any feminist would think a woman is entitled to sex either.

[–]Ultramegasaurus10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Because feminists really, really don't like sexually unsuccesful and unattractive men.Demonization works so freaking well against those. Some feminists do it willfully, others really think that behind every frustrated/depressed man venting online about not being able to partake in a very basic human action is a potential rapist.

[–]_Neon_Shadow_2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

True

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

others really think that behind every frustrated/depressed man venting online about not being able to partake in a very basic human action is a potential rapist.

Were you ever on /r/incels?

Even if they weren't able to commit sexual assault. They considered it 'venting' to promote it.

Venting often should be met with dismissiveness because venting isn't about discourse.

[–]passepar2t9 points10 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

There's a difference between being entitled to sex and being frustrated because you're missing out on a fundamental human experience. Many women interpret frustration as entitlement. No one is entitled to sex but most people get frustrated when they can't get any.

[–]Director-D1 point2 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

being frustrated because you're missing out on a fundamental human experience.

People don’t laugh or make fun of the manosphere for being frustrated. They make fun of them for blaming all their problems on women or society instead of realizing that they are the problem themselves.

Many women interpret frustration as entitlement

No. They see entitlement as entitlement. There are a lot of people in Manosphere groups and nice guys that do believe that sex is something owed to them by women for putting in enough nice points. Read any of the posts on nice guys and you can clearly see that.

There are also a lot of TRPers that believe that they are entitled sex from people they are in a relationship with which isn’t true. There is a lot of entitlement in the manosphere community and it is the main thing people make fun of them for. Well that and a lack of introspection along with projection issues.

[–]passepar2t4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No, they're frustrated. It's not nice points, it's trying to meet lovers through your friend circle. You know, the thing they've been told to do.

Also, I'm entitled to sex in a relationship in the sense that if sex is refused for a prolonged period, I break up with that person.

[–]Director-D1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

it's trying to meet lovers through your friend circle.

Sure, I know that. And many men fail because they are trying to do that through nice points and then get angry when women don’t give them sex or a relationship when they feel they earned enough. That is entitlement. That is what people make fun of.

People don’t make fun of those people failing at relationships. People make fun of the entitlement that caused them to fail or the entitled feeling they show after. It is normal to be upset after not getting someone to “like you back”, but it is pathetic for the person being rejected to feel they were entitled to the other person’s affection and for them to say the other person is flawed for not wanting them.

Also, I'm entitled to sex in a relationship in the sense that if sex is refused for a prolonged period, I break up with that person.

That isn’t what entitlement means firstly. Those are just your demands in a relationship and it still isn’t something entitled to you.

Demanding that you are owed sex for just existing in a relationship or for getting enough relationship points are “feelings of entitlement”. So I would guess you are feeling entitled from what I am hearing about you so far since from what I hear so far (and I might be wrong so correct me if I am), it sounds like you feel you are owed sex in a relationship and will leave if you don’t get that. So you might feel entitled, but that doesn’t make you entitled to it.

Most well adjusted people in relationships normally have sex due to natural feelings and passions and don’t give it out like cookies because you are owed it. Not everyone is ready for sex it or wants it JUST because they are in relationship. Some people want to wait to get a strong connection first or might be holding off for marriage for religious or other personal reasons. They don’t owe you sex just for being in a relationship so you are not entitled to it.

Some people don’t want to have sex for one reason or another. If you don’t like abstinence then why get in a relationship with that person in the first place if you knew they didn’t want to have sex right out the get go?

You have the right to leave someone who doesn’t want sex, and if that is what you feel you need in a relationship then fine. That isn’t the bad thing. The bad thing is feeling you are owed it or getting mad at women for not giving it to you which a lot of RP people state.

[–]passepar2t-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oy. What you seem to be saying is that it's morally wrong to be upset. It's absolutely not wrong to be upset or angry. If you then go on to hurt another person, that's wrong.

"Entitled" is used as a weasel word a lot. Once someone is labeled "entitled," they can be dismissed out of hand. He doesn't actually like her. He was only trying to get with her because he's entitled. He was only being good to her to put in "nice points." What a manipulative jerk.

Also, if my partner is having an off week or whatever, that's fine, I also have off weeks. But consistently not being in the mood for sex means the relationship is over. If you're gonna have a relationship, you're agreeing to be just a little bit entitled to the other person's affection. If not, it's not really a relationship.

[–]Director-D2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What you seem to be saying is that it's morally wrong to be upset.

I never said that... this is a horrible strawman if I ever heard it... you can be as upset as you want, but I can criticize the reasons why you might be upset if they are dumb reasons.

I do think it is bad to feel you are owed sex from someone. If you are just upset over not getting sex from someone and not upset because of the meanings or feelings behind that, then that is definitely a douche bag thing. It Kind of shows what you prioritize or value in your relationship.

"Entitled" is used as a weasel word a lot.

Well thankfully I didnt use it as a weasel word and used the literal definition of the term. Feeling you are owed something.

He was only being good to her to put in "nice points." What a manipulative jerk.

Well if you try to be nice just in order to have sex with someone, then they have the right to say that about you... if you look at most nice guy posts, you see they are only nice until they realize they can’t get sex or a relationship and then they all of a sudden act like a douchebag. This shows and they weren’t being nice because they are a nice person trying to do what is right, but because they wanted something from it. That isnt nice and then saying that isn’t dismissing them. They showed actions that proved that point. Actions speak louder than words.

But consistently not being in the mood for sex means the relationship is over.

Well but if you are more upset about not having sex rather than the feelings or reasons behind why she isn’t in the mood, then that is an issue. In a relationship, you should care about the other person. Being in a relationship is an emotional bond between two people. If the sex is more important than the mood behind why she might not be feeling up to it, then maybe your priorities might be the issue. I believe most women would find that to be an issue if they feel their boyfriend values their body over their emotions and feelings. This is an issue for many women since many women feel they are used in relationships just for sex which does happen. There is nothing wrong with asking her why she isn’t in the mood as much lately and having an open honest discussion about it. They will probably tell you what their issue is. But just getting mad because “I want sex and I need it because we are technically dating” is ridiculous. That is entitlement

[–]JustRuss79RedPurple Man0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Women who continue to accept and dole out "nice guy points" are part of the problem. They are enablers.

Somebody needs to break the cycle, and since men historically and currently are still the ones that have to initiate a relationship. The women should be the ones to recognize the signs and shut down any thoughts of romance or sex early on.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Girls doling out “nice guy points”? You mean people accepting when others are nice? How is that girls fault?

So you are saying it is women’s fault because guys misread them? Why should women change. 95% of men are able to read women just fine. Maybe some of the men struggling should learn to read women better? Why should women change for the few guys that get butthurt because they themselves misread woman and expected a relationship just for just being nice?

[–]JustRuss79RedPurple Man0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That was partially in jest, but the remainder is what I stated. Because men are overwhelmingly expected to initiate, women should make sure their intentions are clear.

Surely women, who are so observant of how creepy and perverted men are. Who recognize all the rapists-in-waiting, are observant enough to say "I appreciate everything you do for me, but I want to be clear that we are just friends."

It won't stop thirsty guys from buying them drinks and carrying heavy objects for them with expectations, but should help clear misunderstandings. Who better to educate men on how to treat women, than the women themselves right? Unless women want to admit that they get "nice" things done for them a lot more often than men do and why.

Or they can all join the incel movement or be redpillers.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

women should make sure their intentions are clear.

I've literally said to guys that I was married, and refused their offer of a drink and then they've gotten upset when my husband, who was sitting beside me, drank the beer. You just can't help some guys.

[–]_Neon_Shadow_0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

This is just plain wrong. TRP frequently stresses that you aren't entitled to shit. Especially as a man. Because woman are human beings and men are human doings. Entitlement is strongly discouraged and shot down where it appears.

[–]Director-D1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In a way they do take some responsibility , but they also deflect a hell of a lot of responsibility at the same time (blaming a lot of problems on women, feminism, hypergamy, tinder, Hollywood, and I just had someone tell me celebrities are also a reason why virgins have it rough...). I know this sounds like I am contradicting myself, but I will explain more.

People that aren’t as good socially normally have trouble with women and a group like TRP is extremely enticing to them. The reason why they are enticing is because they are kind of similar to “how to get rich quick” books and seminars tend to attract people who struggle financially.

Those types of books get people to buy them because instead of telling people good advise about taking more responsibility “hey, you probably aren’t doing well because you don’t save enough money, you eat out all the time, aren’t efficient with your time, and you spend too much on things you don’t need”, they tell people “you aren’t rich because you aren’t following these 6 steps to get rich that corporate people use”. Sure some of the steps they have might coincide with some of the advise mentioned above, but they also add their own dumb extra stuff too. The thing is that those books don’t tell them they are doing things badly, and instead of just giving solid financial advise, they give dumb LARPing as a CEO advise.

TRP is like that. They basically say to people looking in “hey! With TRP you can be getting girls like Chad does!”. Which is why there are so many TRP posts about getting buff, acting dominant, and other overly masculine ideals. So yes. A lot of it is telling people to take responsibility for themselves by LARPing as Chad... it also relies heavily on generalizations, many which aren’t even true and are just based on dumb horror stories about gold diggers. While it does tell men to take responsibility in changing themselves to be a Chad impersonator, it also takes away a lot of the personal responsibility in that TRP blames a lot of their problems on society (tinder, Hollywood, celebrities, hypergamy, feminism, Chads, lookism) and especially women rather than understanding that most of their problems come themselves.

They also have a huge helping of misogyny mixed in also.... the issue I personally have is that all their “good” advise already exists in many other places, but worded better, with more nuance, and without all the bullshit.

[–]Director-D-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

In a way they do take some responsibility , but they also deflect a hell of a lot of responsibility at the same time (blaming a lot of problems on women, feminism, hypergamy, tinder, Hollywood, and I just had someone tell me celebrities are also a reason why virgins have it rough...). I know this sounds like I am contradicting myself, but I will explain more.

People that aren’t as good socially normally have trouble with women and a group like TRP is extremely enticing to them. The reason why they are enticing is because they are kind of similar to “how to get rich quick” books and seminars tend to attract people who struggle financially.

Those types of books get people to buy them because instead of telling people good advise about taking more responsibility “hey, you probably aren’t doing well because you don’t save enough money, you eat out all the time, aren’t efficient with your time, and you spend too much on things you don’t need”, they tell people “you aren’t rich because you aren’t following these 6 steps to get rich that corporate people use”. Sure some of the steps they have might coincide with some of the advise mentioned above, but they also add their own dumb extra stuff too. The thing is that those books don’t tell them they are doing things badly, and instead of just giving solid financial advise, they give dumb LARPing as a CEO advise.

TRP is like that. They basically say to people looking in “hey! With TRP you can be getting girls like Chad does!”. Which is why there are so many TRP posts about getting buff, acting dominant, and other overly masculine ideals. So yes. A lot of it is telling people to take responsibility for themselves by LARPing as Chad... it also relies heavily on generalizations, many which aren’t even true and are just based on dumb horror stories about gold diggers. While it does tell men to take responsibility in changing themselves to be a Chad impersonator, it also takes away a lot of the personal responsibility in that TRP blames a lot of their problems on society (tinder, Hollywood, celebrities, hypergamy, feminism, Chads, lookism) and especially women rather than understanding that most of their problems come themselves.

They also have a huge helping of misogyny mixed in also.... the issue I personally have is that all their “good” advise already exists in many other places, but worded better, with more nuance, and without all the bullshit.

[–]_Neon_Shadow_-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Lol no. TRP is literally the opposite. PUA would be more akin to a quick fix. TRP encourages getting to 10% body fat, being successful in your career, and being socially high in the hierarchy. Literally none of this is a quick fix. It takes years to get very fit. Years to climb the career ladder. Years to become a social magnet. I don't think you understand TRP at all tbh.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

TRP encourages getting to 10% body fat, being successful in your career, and being socially high in the hierarchy.

If that is all you want then why not just read “How to Win Friends and Influence People” or “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People”?

Both of those books have already helped people for decades to do those things with better advise, no misogyny, no Black and white thinking, no projection, and none of the other bullshit...

As I said before, all the “good stuff” of RP is already said everywhere else but much better and without the bullshit. The worst parts of RP read like a modern day Mein Kampf

[–]_Neon_Shadow_0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

There's actually a post on the TRP front page that addresses this already. A lot of self help material is useless because it's made to return a profit and doesn't actually solve the problem. Which is understandable, we live in a capitalist society, so taking advantage of people who feel broken is an easy way to make money. TRP is "open-source" so to speak, succinct, no bullshit, and the ROI is easily observable.

A lot of TRP is filled with racist, sexist, alt-right, snow flake Trumpers, but that's alright with me. Beneath all the scum and garbage are occasional nuggets of gold that actually work and improve lives. I'm willing to go dumpster diving to find gold. I'm able to hold and evaluate two conflicting ideas without compromising my own. A lot of people can't do this. So they call it hateful and misogynistic, while ignoring that it returns results.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

A lot of self help material is useless because it's made to return a profit and doesn't actually solve the problem.

But both of those books are books that are liked by psychologists and professionals. Also those aren’t scam self-help book. I understand avoiding profit scam books, but avoiding everything self-help is ridiculous. Especially since TRP is basically a self-help group (but with much worse advise since it isn’t really regulated).

TRP is "open-source" so to speak, succinct, no bullshit, and the ROI is easily observable.

Open source allows for more bullshit and misinformation though since it isn’t regularly regulated by anyone who is proficient in relationship psychology. Most all MFT psychologist don’t agree with red pill because it is worse than many of the self-help garbage TRP claims to hate.

That is why you get a hell of a lot of crap EP studies used by the RP community. Most RP doesn’t understand how to accurately understand if research is bad or not since most haven’t studied or published psychological research. Normally that crap would easily be dismissed in any setting with good regulation.

Beneath all the scum and garbage are occasional nuggets of gold that actually work.

Well some red pill advise tends to brush up against things that work, but it isn’t the best way to actually improve yourself. I will give an example of some red pill advise that does this.

Dominance is one aspect that is pushed for a lot in red pill advise columns and forums. It seems to work for members because most people that tend to join RP tend to not be assertive at all. Assertiveness in an attractive trait to women and lack of assertiveness in unattractive. Though there is a difference between assertive and dominant actions.

By becoming more dominant, new RP members tend to increase their assertive actions also. But even though a timid person might do better with this advise, it still doesn’t mean it is good advise. Dominance is actually shown to be a negative trait when it comes to attraction. While the person might be more attractive than he was before because he now shows some assertive qualities, now the person has new negative traits of dominance. If that same person used good advise that just worked on increasing assertiveness, he would have been much better off.

So sure. Some RP advise might accidentally brush up against things that are good, but it also encourages a lot of negative traits like dark triad traits that actually will hurt a person’s chances in the dating world and hurt a person’s chances for forming healthy relationships.

Also why search through a large pile of shit in the hopes to find an ounce of gold, when instead you can just find better material that has a lot more gold (good advise) without the shit?

The books I mentioned earlier are actually good books and aren’t scams. There is also MFT psychology advise, which is much more accurate since MFT psychologists spend their entire careers studying relationships. They have accurate data that isn’t full of bull crap research, misogyny, or misinformation. If you don’t like self-help books, then just search up advise from MFT psychologists and get the information from people that spend their whole lives helping people with the issues RP wants to deal with.

[–]_Neon_Shadow_0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

But both of those books are books that are liked by psychologists and professionals. Also those aren’t scam self-help book. I understand avoiding profit scam books, but avoiding everything self-help is ridiculous. Especially since TRP is basically a self-help group (but with much worse advise since it isn’t really regulated).

I wasn't addressing those books specifically. I'm sure they are great, but a lot of self help material preys on the vulnerable. I'm also not saying avoid self help entirely. You can do both, use TRP and study outside sources. Which is why TRP encourages reading heavily in monk mode. TRP is the foundation and from that you build a successful life.

Open source allows for more bullshit and misinformation though since it isn’t regularly regulated by anyone who is proficient in relationship psychology.

This is true. But this is the beauty of it. Anyone can post bullshit but an open community allows it to be called out as low-value bad advice. So it can be disregarded and only the best rises to the top. TRP is heavily moderated and Endorsed Contributors are proficient and give amazing advice.

Most all MFT psychologist don’t agree with red pill because it is worse than many of the self-help garbage TRP claims to hate.

This is a mixed one. On one hand, I definitely see how TRP, MGTOW, and incel communities can make someone worse off. If you lack a strong sense of self and bullshit detector, and enter these communities, it can warp your perception of the world. And not for the better. This is because a lot of depressed and inexperienced guys lack the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff. They take it all in, even the most toxic parts.

On the other hand, people that can use TRP as a toolbox without going full hateful-incel-sperglord are fine. What a psychologist thinks is irrelevant for these people. Because TRP produces results and that's all that matters. If you were stranded in a dessert and had to kill a few animals to survive, would you give a fuck if PETA said its wrong?

That is why you get a hell of a lot of crap EP studies used by the RP community. Most RP doesn’t understand how to accurately understand if research is bad or not since most haven’t studied or published psychological research. Normally that crap would easily be dismissed in any setting with good regulation.

This happens everywhere. Mostly because people no longer read. They see the title of a post and assume it true without researching themselves.

Also why search through a large pile of shit in the hopes to find an ounce of gold, when instead you can just find better material that has a lot more gold (good advise) without the shit?

Because most advice is shit and nowhere near as valuable as TRP material. Guys get told nothing but bullshit advice about relationships and women from the day they are born. The only way to discover the truth and what women are receptive to is to experience it.

Which is much more accurate since MFT psychologists spend their entire careers studying relationships.

Not interested. I've found something that helped me be more successful with women and improve my life. As they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." TRP has vastly improved my life for the better. So I'm uninterested in hearing the same ineffective crap I've heard for years.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I wasn't addressing those books specifically. I'm sure they are great, but a lot of self help material preys on the vulnerable

I agree that a lot of self help material is bull, but to throw out every thing of self help is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. It is pretty easy to check if a certain self help book is actually a scam or not though. You just have to see if researchers in the field actually agree with it or not.

So it can be disregarded and only the best rises to the top.

This isn’t true. What is popular rises to the top. Looking at the first three pages (the stuff that is rising) of the TRP page shows me that the best definitely isn’t rising.

people that can use TRP as a toolbox without going full hateful-incel-sperglord are fine

I mean I guess. But those people would again be better off using actual good advise that has a strong backing rather than sifting through garbage. People also become more like those they associate with.

TRP is heavily moderated and Endorsed Contributors are proficient and give amazing advice.

It is moderated by people who have no understanding of relationship research in the field. Again that is why crap research is still prevalent. Many of the people who are supposed to the the moderators are the one who are posting that garbage.

This happens everywhere. Mostly because people no longer read. They see the title of a post and assume it true without researching themselves.

As I said before, this is also true with RP moderators. The moderators and RP heads also promote a lot of that garbage. The core of RP is based on a lot of EP crap from the PUA days.

If you lack a strong sense of self and bullshit detector, and enter these communities, it can warp your perception of the world. And not for the better. This is because a lot of depressed and inexperienced guys lack the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff. They take it all in, even the most toxic parts.

I mean I understand that. But if there is there is so much bad stuff and the best stuff of RP is already found elsewhere, then why is RP even needed? All their best advise is not new advise and is basic advise most every dating group gives.

Because most advice is shit and nowhere near as valuable as TRP material.

That isn’t true. MFT Psychology advise has been proven to help people. It has been used for millions of people to improve themselves in the dating scene and actually has the research to back it up and prove that it works. What other advise are you comparing it to that isn’t as valuable?

TRP has vastly improved my life for the better. So I'm uninterested in hearing the same ineffective crap I've heard for years.

I’m glad you feel TRP has helped you, but why do you feel any MFT approved advise would be ineffective crap? Especially when they tell you to do the good things you are talking about without all the crap of TRP? Again you can get the good TRP information anywhere. Every set of dating advise tells people to improve themselves. TRP doesn’t have a copyright on that information.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you not see how sex work is different than casual or relationship sex?

The point is choice. You aren't entitled to her body.

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Because the sort of women saying this are engaging in rah rah shit talking , they aren’t trying to develop some sort of nuanced and considerate point of view

[–]Director-D-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If anyone isn’t nuanced, it is the RP community. Most all of their views rely heavily on black and white thinking and huge sweeping generalizations.

It is also true that people aren’t entitled to sex or love. That isn’t a false statement.

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah it’s both. News at 11 people on the internet make self congratulatory divisive inciteful posts rather than trying to find nuance and common ground

[–]Director-D-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well you stated that women who state this are just engaging in shit talking, when it actually isn’t a bad point. Many people on this very subreddit do believe sex is an entitlement. Countering that claim by saying “sex isn’t an entitlement” isn’t rah rah shit talking.

I would argue that calling it all “rah rah shittalking” is lacking nuance and missing the argument being made.

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Very very few people believe that they’re literally entitled to sex. Being hurt about being rejected and lashing out isn’t reflective of a literal belief that you are entitled to sex

If someone thought they were entitled to sex they’d just rape and they would believe they’d done nothing wrong

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Being hurt about being rejected and lashing out isn’t reflective of a literal belief that you are entitled to sex

No grown man should be lashing out... that is what a 5 year old does when he can’t get that toy he wanted. lashing out because you don’t get what you want is entitled behavior...

[–]CainPrice2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a method of demeaning men.

You're not entitled to break into my home, plunger my toilets to get my turds out of the pipes, and eat my turds. But you don't want to eat my turds. You do want sex.

A woman declaring that men are not entitled to sex helps to paint men as assholes who only want sex and don't want love.

A woman declaring that men are not entitled to her time is an equally true statement, but makes her look like the asshole.

"My boyfriend's not entitled to sex!" <-- Boyfriend sounds like an asshole.

"My boyfriend's not entitled to me remembering his birthday!" <-- Girlfriend sounds like an asshole.

Both are true, though.

[–]mistercheeez-o____O-5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The trick is in the verbiage.

Many of them will label anything that they don't like or couldn't be bothered with from men as entitlement.

- A man who expects a woman to have sex with him because he paid for dinner (that's weak but survey says...): Entitlement.

- A man asking for an explination as to why a woman stood him up (I've faced this before): Entitlement.

It's literaly a way to shut down whatever a opinion a man can have in the context of sex, romance or courtship.

[–]speltclerk1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

At the level of consenting contracts, nobody is obligated to provide anything. To force someone to provide, say, basic health services or food to someone else would indeed be a violation. But still, if people are passing through the system without being able to attain enough food to live, or basic healthcare, even when putting great effort into trying to gain them, this would indicate something deeply wrong with that system. Similarly, if large numbers of people are unable to find sex, or a romantic partner, even if they put in great effort to, something is clearly wrong with that system.

Of course, nobody is entitled to sex, food, health services, or anything else - from any particular other person. However, I think you could make the argument that being a human being in a decent society means being able to attain some minimal amount of those things relatively easily.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

if people are passing through the system without being able to attain enough food to live, or basic healthcare, even when putting great effort into trying to gain them, this would indicate something deeply wrong with that system

Or counterpoint, there could be something wrong with the actions the individual is taking in order to achieve those things (which is the more likely conclusion).

Most people struggling with relationships have issues socially, can’t do basic introspection, or project their issues onto other things outside themselves.

Also food and healthcare are extremely basic needs while sex definitely isn’t. A bit of a stretch to compare the two.

However, I think you could make the argument that being a human being in a decent society means being able to attain some minimal amount of those things relatively easily.

Yeah and most all people do end up getting married and/or finding relationships, so that wouldn’t be a very strong argument since that already is true.

[–]speltclerk1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Or counterpoint, there could be something wrong with the actions the individual is taking in order to achieve those things (which is the more likely conclusion).

Of course, human interaction requires an understanding of reciprocity, fairness, social cues and so on. But to find a partner for something as basic as casual sex should not require advanced knowledge.

Also food and healthcare are extremely basic needs while sex definitely isn’t. A bit of a stretch to compare the two.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs places sex at the very base level of physiological needs, along with food and breathing. Just because we aren't directly killed by the lack of it doesn't mean it isn't a basic need.

Yeah and most all people do end up getting married and/or finding relationships, so that wouldn’t be a very strong argument since that already is true.

In younger generations, physical intimacy and relationships are becoming increasingly rare at an alarming rate. Groups such as 'incels' are symptoms of this problem.

[–]jonascf1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But to find a partner for something as basic as casual sex should not require advanced knowledge.

It doesn't require advanced knowledge, but you have to have a minimum of social skills to get it and that's a good thing since it encourages people to develop those things.

[–]speltclerk0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

But the rates are going down and people are finding it increasingly difficult to find sexual partners and relationships, so that incentive is not working properly.

[–]jonascf0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or maybe people have simple gotten less good at basic human interaction, causing us to grow estranged from each other and making it harder to form relationships.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

But to find a partner for something as basic as casual sex should not require advanced knowledge.

Casual sex isn’t a basic right, need, or anything close to food, health, or safety...

People have a need for relationships with others, not casual sex. This isn’t an issue with society, this is an issue only for people who want sex while trying to skip having relationship. And it doesn’t require advanced knowledge to even do that.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs places sex at the very base level of physiological needs, along with food and breathing.

No it doesn’t. It has a space for “social belonging”. Normally humans fulfill the social belonging aspect with things like family and relationships. Sex is not the need, belonging is.

In younger generations, physical intimacy and relationships are becoming increasingly rare at an alarming rate.

This isn’t true. People of younger generations are definitely getting into committed relations later in life compared some of the past generations, but relationships are not close to rare at all... and definitely not at any alarming rate.

Groups such as 'incels' are symptoms of this problem.

Incels are less than 0.1% of the population (actually much smaller). They only seem like a bigger group because the internet makes vocal minorities seem much bigger than they actually are. Also incels’ problems aren’t that they aren’t having sex. Their problem is that they try to avoid all responsibility and have issues relating to any women in general. You will notice that most incels don’t have any female friends, think of women as lesser beings, and blame everything on their looks rather than facing the fact that they mostly don’t have many hobbies at all, they tend to be terrible socially, focus all their happiness on the idea of having a relationship, and many have mental disorders.

[–]speltclerk0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Casual sex isn’t a basic right, need, or anything close to food, health, or safety...

We disagree here - in my view, the physical release of sex (more fundamental than higher level things such as relationships and intimacy) is indeed a basic aspect of a normal, healthy human life.

No it doesn’t. It has a space for “social belonging”. Normally humans fulfill the social belonging aspect with things like family and relationships. Sex is not the need, belonging is.

Please see the diagram http://bit.ly/2JTOe75 - which places 'sex' in the lowest, physiological level. More developed forms of intimacy are at the higher levels which generally can only be fulfilled once the more basic requirements are satisfied.

This isn’t true. People of younger generations are definitely getting into committed relations later in life compared some of the past generations, but relationships are not close to rare at all... and definitely not at any alarming rate.

Young people today report being the loneliest generation, teenagers having less sex than ever, go on less dates, and higher rates of people who would like to be in a relationship cannot find one. The inability to fulfil these basic desires leads to more serious long term setbacks such as depression, lack of career progression, and so on.

https://ind.pn/2JQQ7RI

http://bit.ly/2JQQlZ4

http://bit.ly/2JQQFXM

Their problem [incels] is that they try to avoid all responsibility and have issues relating to any women in general.

It is not to claim their ideas are rational, but I do think the causation is the other way around here. Lack of sexual and romantic experiences is very likely what leads to incels developing these distorted ideas about women. It is not from the mindset or 'free will' of incels that they develop their lifestyle. It is a problem in their material conditions: being deprived of sex really is unhealthy.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

We disagree here - in my view, the physical release of sex (more fundamental than higher level things such as relationships and intimacy) is indeed a basic aspect of a normal, healthy human life.

You can disagree all you want but it isn’t the same as food or water. People can go without sex. You can’t go without food, water, or shelter and survive for long. Not a basic need. No current practicing psychologist or scientist would agree with your stance.

Please see the diagram http://bit.ly/2JTOe75 - which places 'sex' in the lowest, physiological level. More developed forms of intimacy are at the higher levels which generally can only be fulfilled once the more basic requirements are satisfied.

Alright... it sounds like you hit your first high school psychology class and are super excited about this theory, but Look at any modern version of the diagram. sex isn’t on there anymore. The current points on it are food, water, sleep, shelter, and homeostasis. You are reading an outdated version of it that hasn’t proven to be right. People can live long periods and entire lifetimes without sex and have been able to achieve the higher aspects of the hierarchy. Also, Maslow’s theory is not actual scientific proof, just a theory that is very outdated and has been proven to be pretty wrong over the years. His original study and the basis of this theory only looked at the healthiest 1% of the college student population and is very Western centric. The theory does not hold true in collectivist or even many other individualist countries, and barely holds true even in America because the idea of an animalistic hierarchy of needs is outdated. Basically most all research over the last 50 years found that a hierarchy isn’t needed and the human brain has the plasticity to be able to organize and adapt in a way that higher areas of the pyramid can be reached without needing to hit the lower ones first.

Young people today report being the loneliest generation, teenagers having less sex than ever, go on less dates,and higher rates of people who would like to be in a relationship cannot find one. The inability to fulfil these basic desires leads to more serious long term setbacks such as depression, lack of career progression, and so on.

Firstly. None of your actual statistical articles show teens have higher rates of people who would like to be in a relationship cannot find one. Also being a teen isn’t the end of the world. Teens not having as much sex isn’t a bad things and isn’t directly related to loneliness. Technology and many of the new issues that come with that are much more likely to be a heavier cause for loneliness than not enough sex given out... The last article also isn’t close to scientific (neither is the first). They use some statistics but makes extreme leaps in conclusions. Have you ever heard the phrase “correlation does not equal causation”? That is something you should learn when reading articles. It can help separate the crap articles and conclusions from the good ones.

It is not to claim their ideas are rational, but I do think the causation is the other way around here. Lack of sexual and romantic experiences is very likely what leads to incels developing these distorted ideas about women.

I definitely wouldn’t say that. Incels show many signs of mental disorders or cognitive issues and most had already been diagnosed before becoming incels (which is why you also see incels have a huge hate for psychology and psychologists).

Their issues come from extreme black and white thinking (something people normally grow out of by high school age), heavy projection, catastrophizing, social incompetence, and a complete lack of personal responsibility. That is the core of why most of them all have issues, not just because they are feeling lonely. Feeling lonely is normal, the extreme amount of projection and blaming it on women isn’t.
Also the incel community basically works in a similar manner that cults do. They find stressed out people, tell them they have answers, pretend they are more benign then they actually are, and they have the recruits isolate themselves from others so they feel the group is the only important thing to them (through use of language and an extensive list terminology that are meant to belittle anyone who isn’t part of the group along with thoughts and ideas that no one can help them but other incels). They are basically the equivalent of a modern day cult similar to cults of the past. The internet has changed how these cults can reach people though.

[–]speltclerk0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You can disagree all you want but it isn’t the same as food or water. People can go without sex. You can’t go without food, water, or shelter and survive for long. Not a basic need. No current practicing psychologist or scientist would agree with your stance.

Human needs (even those in the 'physiological' category) aren't limited to things that we would literally die without directly. They are the necessary normal parts of a healthy, happy life. Even so, that isn't entirely accurate since the human species couldn't continue to exist without sex. For example, eugenics advocates try to target a specific group or demographic of people and find ways to discourage or prevent them from procreating, and I think this could reasonably be construed as a violation of their basic rights.

Alright... it sounds like you hit your first high school psychology class

I won't respond to this paragraph since it was mostly irrelevant. I was just using the Maslow thing to say that it's a generally understood thing that sex is a basic part of a normal healthy human life.

Technology and many of the new issues that come with that are much more likely to be a heavier cause for loneliness than not enough sex given out...

I would be very interested to see your scientific evidence that rates of people who want a relationship but can't find one are the same or lower, or that technology is the cause of loneliness.

Incels show many signs of mental disorders or cognitive issues and most had already been diagnosed before becoming incels (which is why you also see incels have a huge hate for psychology and psychologists).

We agree that they have irrational ways of thinking, but you seem to be saying that these are caused by some kind of biological issue with their brain or their psychology. I think that exposure to actual women and sex could eventually improve the condition, at least for some incels.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Human needs (even those in the 'physiological' category) aren't limited to things that we would literally die without directly.

Individual physiological needs are the biological requirements for human survival. They are needs, that if not met, the human body cannot function properly. That is literally the definition. Physiological needs do not require you to be happy or satisfied. That is why sex isn’t a part of most versions of Maslow’s hierarchy anymore by most people who still defend that it is a good model. It is not required to function, and many humans go an entire quarter of their lives without sex with no negative drawbacks. Some humans go celibate their whole life. If a person can go over 25 years without sex and still be able to have an extremely healthy life, then it is not an individual physiological need. It is a need for the species, but not an individual need.

Even so, that isn't entirely accurate since the human species couldn't continue to exist without sex.

True, but That is a huge stretch to argue that every human needs it to function healthy in life. No scientist or psychologist would agree. Again, sex is a need for the species, but not a need for individual physical or psychological health.

I won't respond to this paragraph since it was mostly irrelevant. I was just using the Maslow thing to say that it's a generally understood thing that sex is a basic part of a normal healthy human life.

The reason why I stated that is because it doesn’t seem like you understand The actual issues with Maslow’s hierarchy and you have a limited and cherry picked understanding of psychology. Maslow’s hierarchy has a lot of issues and is only a theory. A lot of the core tenants of it have been debunked, so it isn’t the best example to use.

I would be very interested to see your scientific evidence that rates of people who want a relationship but can't find one are the same or lower, or that technology is the cause of loneliness.

Sure. Here are a couple articles for you with citations in APA format. Read them up. These articles show connections between technology and loneliness.

Robert Kraut, Michael Patterson, Vicki Lundmark, Sara Kiesler, Tridas Mukophadhyay, William Scherlis (1998). Internet paradox: A social technology that reduces social involvement and psychological well-being? American psychologist 53 (9), 1017.

Amy L Gentzler, Ann M Oberhauser, David Westerman, Danielle K Nadorff (2011). College students' use of electronic communication with parents: links to loneliness, attachment, and relationship quality. Cyberpsychology, Behavior, and Social Networking 14 (1-2), 71-74.

Eric J Moody (2001). Internet use and its relationship to loneliness. CyberPsychology & Behavior 4 (3), 393-401.

Scott E Caplan (2006). Relations among loneliness, social anxiety, and problematic Internet use. CyberPsychology & Behavior 10 (2), 234-242.

Is That enough for you? There are more

you seem to be saying that these are caused by some kind of biological issue with their brain or their psychology.

I never said it was biological. Some of it is since many incels are on the autistic spectrum, but they also has psychological issues that could have been brought up through parenting or other issues in childhood. Personal responsibility is a trait normally learned young. That is a learned trait. Many incels have themselves and how they were raised to blame a lot of times for their social incompetence and lack of responsibility which are the core of their issues. A lot of them also seem to have cases of body dysmorphia also. Not all of it is biological. But it definitely isn’t because “they don’t get enough sex”.

I think that exposure to actual women and sex could eventually improve the condition, at least for some incels.

Maybe exposure to women might help. Maybe if they realize that women aren’t evil harpies and are normal people like themselves, they might drop a lot of their woman hating rhetoric. But just sex won’t help them. They already have an unhealthy obsession with sex that needs psychological help. Giving them sex won’t help.

[–]daymi0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No it doesn’t [place sex at the very base level of physiological needs, along with food and breathing]. It has a space for “social belonging”. Normally humans fulfill the social belonging aspect with things like family and relationships. Sex is not the need, belonging is.

It does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs clearly states sex being part of the physiological needs.

Love/belonging is in a much later level.

Casual sex isn’t a basic right, need, or anything close to food, health, or safety...

Sex is a basic need, along with food. Whether casual sex is is another matter (needs that are this basic don't really distinguish).

Health and safety are part of Safety needs, a much later level.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs clearly states sex being part of the physiological needs.

Not anymore as often. Look up more recent stuff on the hierarchy. Since the 2000s it has been basically criticized to be removed since it is not close to necessary to survival or to reaching higher tiers on the hierarchy. That is why most recent pyramids have removed it and replaced it with homeostasis. Here is an article you can look up at your local library about it. Many recent pyramids have put sex up with the social belonging category and isn’t even necessary for that one.

Kenrick, D. T.; Griskevicius, V.; Neuberg, S. L.; Schaller, M. (2010). "Renovating the pyramid of needs: Contemporary extensions built upon ancient foundations". Perspectives on Psychological Science. 5: 292.

Also using Maslow’s hierarchy to prove sex is needed for humans to function is rediculous... it's not a model based on science or any hard and fast rules. Food is at the base of the pyramid, but there are plenty of people who willingly go without food, eg. anorexics. in the name of needs that are supposedly higher up on the pyramid. There are a hell of a lot of problems with his theory and it isn’t considered a scientific fact since the model also doesn’t work cross-culturally and there are a lot of issues that go against the idea that it is actually a good model.

Sex is a basic need, along with food.

Sex is needed for a species but is not needed for basic human functioning like food is. It is not a basic individual need. You can go an entire lifetime without sex and have a perfectly healthy life. Many monks, priests, nuns, and various other groups have done it.

[–]HalfysRedditIndependent thinker1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're not entitled to anything from anyone else other than safety.

If social interactions are so difficult for you that you can't find someone organically, then you unfortunately just die alone. Anything different is just shifting your misfortune onto someone else's shoulders.

[–]NeedingAdvice861 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Honestly the ones which I have seen say this are women who have known that some shrub is very much into them and they have taken advantage of that attraction to get favors, gifts, trips, dinners and attention, then they throw that out when the guy attempts to get intimacy\sex from them.

Then they suddenly are the aggrieved party....

You don't see quality women using the attraction of guys in whom they don't have interest to get free shit and other such things....quality women are wary of being put in such situations.

[–]Ultramegasaurus4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What also kills me is the sheer hypocrisy. Women religiously repeat this "men aren't entitled to sex" line while simultaenously shitting their own entitlement freely into mainstream media.

I'm talking about the mountain of "where have all the good men gone" articles and all its spinoffs. A lot of women clearly think men owe them committed relationships, especially after having sex with them. Not only that, but the men must also fit arbitrary and high standards. The "subpar" men who offer commitment are either ignored or mocked. I think all those articles that can be summarized by "I'm an amazing woman and deserve commitment from an even more amazing man. The men who do not fit my standards are beneath me and the ones who do but don't commit are childish/evil/abusive." comes way closer to entitlement than your average men complaining about a (near) total lack of success with women.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (38 children) | Copy Link

Some, perhaps most, women use sex as a tool to get what they want. In relationships they ration out sex and use sex to control their BF/husband. If the guy complains out comes the not entitle to sex argument.

Its an argument guys can't win. If (when) a women tries this the only rational response is NEXT!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

oh yes. The good ol' "women don't enjoy sex" argument.

[–]reluctantly_red4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The good ol' "women don't enjoy sex" argument.

A woman can enjoy sex and use it as a tool to get what she wants. A double win for her if she can pull it off.

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What isn't a tool to get what you want?

Anything you can do for a person that they want is a tool to get them to want to be near you and reciprocate.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

and reciprocate.

The key word. All to often the exchange is very one sided with the guy on the losing end (at least in MC/UMC relationships).

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Truth, every single time I see a comment condemning this or a thread asking if women do it I have a Oh honey..moment. How do men grow up without ever learning this? Lil Bambi, you'lll never be king of the forest if you can't see it for the trees!

I love that someone got dv pissy over a Bambi comment of all things. What kind of wide eyes innocent grows up not knowing people use what they have to get what they want? Poor lil thing🦌🌲🌲🌲🌲

[–]SkrattGoddess-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why aren't we doing it then?

Did you see the sex study I posted about most women not climaxing from sex?

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why aren't we doing it then?

Most likely because women are with guys they're not really attracted to.

[–]ifelsedowhilelocal cop - cherry top[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

the don't enjoy it with betas.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sure they do. All the time.

Women don't enjoy sex with the lowest value men. Most men are not low value.

[–]ifelsedowhilelocal cop - cherry top[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're so bluepilled you must look like a human viagra capsule.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Women don't enjoy sex with the vast majority of men, oftentimes including the guy they're in a relationship with - that's where this trope comes from, because so many men can relate to it.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I can't believe you're not embarrassed to admit that your experience is that women don't enjoy having sex with you. As if that's women's problem and not your own. It boggles the mind, truly.

[–]reluctantly_red5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As if that's women's problem and not your own.

If a woman doesn't enjoy sex with me that's just a fact. Its nobody's fault or problem. Just need to find a more compatible partner (i.e. one who is actually attracted to me).

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Uhh I can believe that women generally don’t enjoy sex, and also believe that women generally do enjoy sex with me

Not really any contradiction there

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lol

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Not talking about myself, merely about how things are.

Though I have to add that the old "women don't enjoy sex (as a rule)"-trope really did a number on me and has contributed to me being neurotic in my dealings with them. It's like a female redditor once said on /r/askmen: "before I had visited askmen, I would never have thought that men really thought women only were having sex with men as a way of doing them a favor" - because that's the messages we get.

We're constantly reminded that we're not entitled to sex; that women are used for sex by assholes; that women are pressured into sex; that women are raped all the fucking time; that women need hours of foreplay and deep romantic infatuation in order to get in the mood; that porn doesn't reflect sex; that normal women don't have sex like the women in porn; that in a DBR-relationship, it's usually the woman rejecting sexual advances; and so on (and of course it's always framed as the fault of men). While all this isn't entirely wrong (usually because, as I said above, women aren't into most men including their partners), what do you think are men going to make of this?

If a guy gets the opportunity to really experience genuine desire and everything that comes with it, he may look behind the curtain, but that's not something every man gets. Personally (due to a habit of picking my FWBs for their kinkiness) I managed to verify that impression, but that also required me dropping these notions and also to drop my notions of how a Real ManTM was supposed to treat women.

So stick your "it boggles the mind" where the sun doesn't shine.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Easy on that koolaid my dude.

It's much more simple than that. I think you probably know that.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS-2 points-1 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It's much more simple than that.

What specifically?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

That what you're claiming only refers to the bottom tier of men. Most men are not bottom tier.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

If you really think it's only bottom tier men who get set on a sex diet by their partners, you have no idea.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Ok so your position is that any man who is not getting his absolute ideal amount of sex whenever he wants is oppressed, and we should feel sorry for them?

It would be cool if my boyfriend were a millionaire. He's not. Do you feel bad for me?

[–]daymi-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your comment violated reddiquette (ad hominem).

Heaven forbid someone wants to further his understanding of the world by honest conversation. This conversation has to happen. Stop shaming.

[–]SkrattGoddess2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

No we don't.

[–]JustRuss79RedPurple Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Sleep on the couch" is a direct denial / show of power. The fact that men obey ever is a sign they are a slave to sex and the wife/gf is the master.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Not at first perhaps, and I have met a couple of women over the years who don't, but for most women sex is indeed a tool.

[–]Director-D0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Source?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I take it your view your investment and commitment behaviors as a “tool” too then.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Doesn't everyone?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No?

[–]niem254 1 points [recovered]  (1 child) | Copy Link

No it's not, if a girl pulls that shit you do the same. If she doesn't enjoy sex as much as you do she's probably not a good gf for you

[–]reluctantly_red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

she's probably not a good gf for you

OK -- NEXT!

[–]AutoModeratorMarried to MRS_DRgree[M] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Attention!

  • You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.

  • For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.

  • If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.

  • OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[–]PreferencesRBigotryBlue Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They're saying that sex/love is not a positive right.

EDIT: do people not understand the difference between negative rights and positive rights?

[–]fatalcharm0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No one is entitled to sex, love, romance or companionship. Whether they are a man or woman. You have to earn those things. You aren't automatically entitled to them.

You can't treat people like shit, then expect them to love you. That is entitlement. The same goes for sex, romance and companionship. If you want those things, you need to put in the effort. If you want people to love you, then you can't be a horrible person.

I can't believe this question is even being asked. No one is entitled to love, you have to earn it by being a decent person. If you are not a decent person then don't expect people to love you.

Love, romance, companionship and sex are all privileges, not rights.

[–]_Neon_Shadow_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

GOOD FUCKING QUESTION!!!

[–]dylang92Clear Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because most of the dudes who they’re talking about mostly just want sex and are mad because they’re hot enough to get it with hot women.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Look, I don't know what kind of feminists you hang out with, but the ones that end up on my radar usually are more likely to believe that men are not entitled to anything, including their own health, money, time, and genetics.

[–]Whodunnit88Survivied Purge Week 20180 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Calling someone entitled is a wonderful way of avoiding some harsh truths about their own behavior.

[–]Cunari0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When you call someone entitled it means you're not willing to have a discussion about the issue.

[–]agloelita0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because men are entitled to love (in the nonromantic human to human, humanity, sort of way)

[–]Willow-girlProud 2 B an American farmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No one is entitled to anything, IMO.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ignore feminists. They're all about placing every form of power directly into female hands and leaving none in male hands.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19930 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

dont know about this, but we feminists do say "males arent owed anything" and the anything part covers it all. body, energy, time, etc. anything.

[–]AliceGaveMeTheHerp0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course men are entitled to love because male love by nature is sacrificial. Who doesn’t love receiving free shit?

[–]killallthenarcs0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminists say men are not entitled to sex but they might as well say they are not entitled to love, romance or companionship since you get sex from those things.

Well duh. You know all those romance books that cheap book exchanges used to be full of? Yeah, that's women buying three romance novels a week for years and years and years. Often married women who were not getting decent levels of romance, or love or companionship. Women fucking KNOW that no-one is entitled to these things, we daily see the reality that many women live in which those things are not provided and cannot be compelled.

They are not against porno or sex working because we know that 3rd wave feminism is theoretically not opposed to those things (even though we know they often criticize them to the point of glaring contradiction) so they are obviously referencing to sex in a relationship.

You're not entitled to new pornos or sex working either. If you woke up one morning and all the people who are able to make such stuff available to you said "nah not today... not this month... maybe not this year" then you would have to go without. There. You have been told.

What's the logic behind it?

The logic behind it is that your attempts to stick your dick in them are more threatening and persistent and if push comes to shove, harder to thwart than your attempts to love them. Therefore that is the reminder you get issued more often of what you aren't entitled to.

Does it sound too harsh to say 'men are not entitled to love'?

No-one is entitled to love, other than possibly small children who most people seem to agree should not be locked in cages and fed formula by robots.

Or are they implying that you can have a relationship but sex is not guaranteed

We may use the wording "have" a relationship but it is more something one does with the co-operation of another person than something one has. And yes it is possible to do relationships without sex, but you're still not entitled to those sort of relationships either if no-one wants to do one with you.

and women might as well keep you celibate?

Relieving your celibacy is not the obligation of women who aren't in the sort of relationships with you where that has been negotiated as an expectation, and even those who are in those sorts of relationships with you have the option of failing to meet expectations and suffering the cost to the relationship that is involved.

The days of locking down a hot skinny young woman early in her life and then bullying her, guilting her, forcing her, with the assistance of the church, her family and the law courts into being a receptacle for sperm for the rest of her life no matter how she started to feel about the matter are OVER. You are not entitled to love and never were... at previous times in history maybe it was easier to coerce someone into pretending to love you but rest assured, you were never entitled to the real deal. To get love you might have to consider becoming lovable. You are not entitled to lust and never were, although at previous times in history maybe it was easier to coerce someone into pretending to be aroused by you but rest assured you were never entitled to the real deal. To get lust you might have to consider becoming sexy.

Got that? Do you understand? You are not entitled to have other people feel a particular way about you. They are entitled to their own feelings and thoughts. If they are polite in certain circumstances they will keep certain adverse feelings and thoughts to themselves, but that does not extend to them agreeing to pretend to have love or lust for you just out of politeness.

[–]ifelsedowhilelocal cop - cherry top[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Ok, so women are not entitled to the work of men: men become lazy because they dont have enough relationships, sex and marriages as motivators and society collapses. Its women's turn to shovel asphalt and climbing poles to fix power lines filling the void left by men!

[–]killallthenarcs2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You say that like it is some bit revelation and I'm supposed to be upset by it. Dude, it is just reality.

If tomorrow all men who did such things ceased to be willing to do them despite the financial incentive then yes it would be down to women to sort out what was to be done instead. Things would have to change, maybe there would be less asphalt and more brick paved roads, maybe less paving and more asphalt, everything would have to be rejigged just like everything would have to be rejigged if a virus went through humanity and made men in general less strong.

Exactly the same as the porn and the sexwork. If those who do it or are favored in doing it ceased to become able or willing to do it, other things would be done, other services and products invented to make do, and humanity would adapt and trundle forward as it always has.

You're not entitled to force another person into the form of labor you prefer them to perform. The fact that men do more asphalt shovelling and women do more sexwork doesn't straight out give other people the right to continue to expect that of them forever. I mean sure you can make attempts to force them, but most people think that's naff and will attempt to stop you... slavery is way out of fashion right now in the developed world.

Prices for asphalt shovelling and blowjobs go up and down as people's interest in doing those things goes up and down for various reasons. It's a market out there. People sell, people give away, but we protect them from theft. We even try to protect them a little from being in situations where it isn't theft but the choice is not a particularly free one. We try to rehab addicts so they don't need to whore. We offer scholarships and loans so that there are options other than laboring.

In general, women find faking love and faking lust repugnant and demeaning. The systematic insistence on it has in particucular been a burden on any woman with a deep internal need for authenticity. This is one of the reasons why a girlfriend who dotes and who has lust in her expression is such a big deal to a guy... that's the real deal, she's a rare creature, the system has been in the habit of crushing ones like her or sending them to nunneries.

Those who are willing to fake such things for profit usually want to get the hell away afterwards from the man they've done them for. Those who are willing to do them for profit and think they can keep it up for years are often wrong. Those who can and do keep it up for years are specialized creatures who expect immense levels of payoff... that's the behavior of the classes where the payoff is private jets and haut couture 24/7 and boarding schools for the kids and the husband gets a mistress so his demands are only at a level where he's reassuring himself that his trophy is still a trophy.

W're also not particularly in need of more labor or more population right now. There's absolutely no urgency to making the unwilling work more than necessary to feed themselves or the unwilling fuck or pair up.

Just fucking deal with it OK? Women have had so much deliberately created need to just fucking deal with it in the past, with forced marriages and restrictive roles and the like meaning they rarely got what they wanted, a little bit of scarcity and deprivation of sex due to the normal working of the market is nothing by comparison. This is your cross to bear, right here and now. Some of the burden of faking being sexy and loving for individuals they don't even like that women have been carrying has set down by them with the statement "well yeah a lot of us would rather work for our living" and guys have to work out what to do. Don't pick it up, MGTOW? Sure! Pick it up, marry a fat girl? Sure! Pick it up, work out and learn to please? Sure! You have so many effing options to deal, more than women traditionally had. Just deal.

[–]sketch1620000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

On top of what has already been said, always referring to entitlement to sex instead of entitlement to love is a emotionally manipulative way of winning an argument by invoking the old, sexist stereotype that men are uncontrollable sex addicts.

Because someone feeling romantically isolated and unloved is a perfectly understandable, common condition and may cause people to offer comfort, aid, understanding and (gasp) a sympathetic ear to those designated enemies to feminism.

And we can't have that, now can we?

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Tbh, it's not a stretch to say "you're not entitled to a relationship." Feminist wouldn't phrase that as "you're not entitled to love" because

a.) There are many kinds of love, the majority of which do not involve sex, let alone the gender stuff feminism would be concerned with.

b.) The majority of contexts where I've seen feminists talk about "entitlement to sex" WERE in the contexts of first dates/clubbing/ONS stuff, "niceguys" (loathsome term) wanting pity hookups, or rape. Not in the context of wanting a loving relationship (which doesn't necessarily involve sex, although this sub doesn't like that).

[–]fatalcharm0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I would say that adults aren't entitled to love though. Children are different, as we brought them into the world and they depend on us. Once they become adults though, they need to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. This goes for both men and women.

Imagine a horrible person, who treats everyone like shit, expecting everyone to love them. That is entitlement. No one has to love you, you need to earn that love by being a decent person. Thinking that people have to love you, despite treating them horribly, is entitlement.

I know that there are a bunch of romantics in this sub who think "But what about luuuurve? Everyone is entitled to luuuurve!" but we don't live in a world of rainbows and unicorns, where everyone is kind and respectful to each other. Maybe in that world, everyone would be entitled to love. However, the real world that we live in can be quite cruel. People can be cruel. Those cruel people do not deserve our love, nor are they entitled to it.

So aside from children (who are too young to take responsibility for their actions and depend on their parents love in order to survive) people aren't entitled to love at all. Same goes for companionship, romance and sex. These are privileges that are earned through being a decent person and treating others with kindness.

[–]flamingoinghomeIs three lizards in trench coat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would agree with that. That said, it isn't really a feminist issue, since it's not anything to do with gender.

[–]Pesky_GibbonPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men are not entitled to sex when the answer is no.

Men are entitled to love, from somebody.

But it has to be consensual.

My two pens.

K.

[–]qx4758Tyrian Rectal Suppository-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or are they implying that you can have a relationship but sex is not guaranteed and women might as well keep you celibate?

Yes.

[–]kkokk-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because men and women have different desires.

Men like sex a lot, and have very little access to it. Women like sex much less, and have infinite access to it.

A man needs sexual contact of some sort in a relationship, or else they may as well be friends. To a man, receiving sex = love.

Not so for a woman, since women are typically drowning in sexual offers. For a woman, tangible provisioning = love. Money, work, gifts/flowers, etc.

[–]JustRuss79RedPurple Man-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A man they do not know, buying them a drink and expecting anything from them up to an including sex. This statement makes a bit of sense.

But many use this argument even in a marriage, where she "makes him sleep on the couch" and other nonsense. Withholding sex as a punishment or using it for other manipulation.

A relationship is a contract, and if either side is not upholding the contract then the other side is free to leave it. Men should start witholding emotional support and gifts and favors from women they expect physical and emotional intimacy from. Stop friendzoning themselves and expect to only get what they put into the relationship. The moment they stop getting what they were expecting, its time to have a conversation or bale.

Sex should be considered a healthcare issue, I'm sure there are therapists that would recommend getting laid for a variety of conditions. I suggest we legalize prostitution so that men can get their needs fulfilled by paying for it directly, rather than through emotional manipulation and blackmail.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

© TheRedArchive 2024. All rights reserved.
created by /u/dream-hunter