Q4All : Why should men not prefer debt-free virgins without tattoos?

[deleted] · 2018-08-03T15:16:59+00:00

This is a reminder that down voting is against the rules. It doesn't foster debate and being butt hurt doesn't help your argument.

Oncefa2 · 2018-08-03T03:20:04+00:00

I'll definitely take an order of debt-free (unless the debt is attached to a doctorate or medical degree of some kind?)

Virgin sounds nice in theory, except I'm not sure I'd be compatible with the type of woman within 10 years of my age who would still be a virgin.

Tats to be evaluated on a case by case basis.

shoup88 · 2018-08-03T03:24:34+00:00

Men can prefer whatever they want. I doubt you’re going to find anyone on this sub who disagrees that men can prefer whatever they’d like. Where people will disagree is with the supposed rational and supported reasoning behind their preferences.

When you try and find intellectual reasoning to support your primal preferences, you will fail. Like that post recently where men argued that you could tell so much about a woman’s deeper nature if she had a tattoo. Something like 40% of millennial now have at least one tattoo - it’s mainstream. It doesn’t say anything about who they are as a person.

So why try and justify that preference with some pseudo psychological bullshit? Just own the fact that you dislike tattoos from a visual POV, and you think other dicks are yucky.

It’s the reasoning we have an issue with, not the preference itself.

goatismycopilot · 2018-08-03T10:55:56+00:00

Yes, this is standard advice that the big box Christian churches give to young women and men, it is certainly nothing to pearl clutch about. Somehow despite this advice, the red states where everybody is Christiany have higher divorce rates. And the advice probably works for a few years, it encourages people to marry young. It also keeps the super hot Christian ladies who have lots of options in the community and reassures the men. People get married, pop out some babies then they find out that their good Christian spouse is exactly the same as all the heathens out there who do not accept Christ in their life. They have the exact same flaws, they aren't better because they "serve" Christ. So, they get divorced, often a few times.

Mr_Smoogs · 2018-08-03T03:18:29+00:00

A) Who's saying it's not okay for men to prefer these things?

B) Who's saying that men do prefer these things?

C) Why did you link an article specific about Christian values like it applies to anyone else?

DemonConsulting · 2018-08-03T08:18:00+00:00

It's not just the preferences themselves that create the strongest reactions, as much as the tone in which they are presented with and the way they are rationalized/ presented as universal facts.

In general, the latter goes over a lot better if you can present at least some statistics/research on the issue of (1) your claim being true and how big of an issue it is (for example research showing a link between tattoos and mental health) and (2) how much of an impact it has on the SMP/ relationships (statistics on male preferences against tattoos or even better research showing active selection against women with tattoos.) Since you are making an affirmative claim, it is on you to actually provide some proof on it - the only point that has been discussed to death on here is N-count, the other two are up for discussion, particularly the part on how your first claim plays out irl (men seem to be less selective in their partner's finances afaik), as well as the third one on all counts.

The other big part is the rationalizing. Point 1) makes perfect sense, I doubt there is much room to argue besides maybe proving that men actually select for it/ how strong the preference is, and what type of debt it is (a doctor or lawyer with student loans can reasonably expected to be financially stable with an even higher earning potential for the future).

Point 2) we have some research on and the preference is undeniably there. Though based on the very emotional reactions of men on the issue, I would argue that “sluts are nasty for wife-material.“ has a much larger impact than how you framed it. The visceral reaction generally comes first - you can explain its origins with evo-psych and show that statistically it is still a good decision to follow your instincts, but it is no more rational than women's preferences for high-status males for example. The vast majority of men don't know about any of the crap we discuss on ppd, and neither do they spend years observing couples to see which traits have the best outcomes (even people on here seem to have a poor grasp on how much divorce rates vary by demographic and can be selected/ vetted for). But most men still have the same preference for low N-count for LTRs accross the board, which incidentally makes it one of those preferences you can't negotiate on or change.

Point 3) at this stage just seems like a personal preference, unless there are at least some statistics or research proving otherwise. I would argue that men and women with tattoos probably don't share this dislike and most likely simply date eachother.

Then of course lastly we have the tone and how people quickly feel personally attacked, especially if you make blanket statements about a demographic they are in. Example: “I am scared/ uncomfortable being alone with a man I don't know well because men are stronger/ more prone to violence/ I could get raped.“ post this on reddit and you quickly get jumped by ten “but I would never be violent/ a rapist/ able to overpower the average woman“ guys, as well as one or two posting stats on how your partner is more likely to murder you. Even though being alone with a man does carry a significant statistical risk for women, there is clear research on the link between thestosterone and violence, as well as the vast difference in physical strength between men and women, and the statement was not even framed in a way intended for men. Why adding an inflamatory tone or terms like “slut“ or “nasty“ will give you a more emotional reaction than for example “high N-count“ and “turn-off“ should be clear and in most cases the use of such language or other is fully intentional to get said reaction (positive or negative depending on the audience)

In general if you just look at the discussions on this sub, preferences framed as “I personally prefer XYZ“ almost never get attacked or create negative reactions. Sometimes their reasoning behind it might be, but even that is mostly limited to claims with little proof/rationalizing. Beyond that, there's only the rare edgelord who may outright accuse you of lying about your preferences, experiences, or behavior.

Lastly telling people what their preferences should be serves no purpose because attraction is non-negotiable and all other criteria come second to that (we already know the outcome when people neglect or go against their attraction and choose “safe“ options - it's called a dead bedroom with a BB.)

hiso_hiso · 2018-08-03T04:09:04+00:00

go ahead. i support the initiative to rule out as many types of women as you please, stringently, and based on the most minor of details. please see the last ‘slut tell’ thread for all of the things you should be disqualifying women for. settle for none of them, ever.

UsedAlgae · 2018-08-03T08:05:41+00:00

I dunno, switch the genders and pick some set of traits that men would get angry about, and tell me how well it would go over on places outside of TRP and MRA on Reddit. "Women prefer rich men over 6' who don't play video games".

SkookumTree · 2018-08-03T04:07:52+00:00

I agree with the debt free part. But tattooed girls that aren’t virgins can be great people. Especially for guys with a little ink and some experience.

DaphneDK42 · 2018-08-03T06:39:00+00:00

Anyone can have any preference they want. That doesn't make them reasonable or realistic.

I could say I only want to date Latino men who play guitar and drive Volkswagens if I want. I'm really only harming myself by limiting my options to such a tiny fraction of the population.

mareenah · 2018-08-03T07:09:45+00:00

It's fine, I prefer a debt-free virgin man without tattoos.

DopeBergoglio · 2018-08-03T07:24:58+00:00

Kinda leaning towards red... I don't think I would like a virgin. She would be like very shy, or religious, or weird or ugly. Ok, maybe she had and extreme bad luck for some reason or she was fat and now she's not, that could happen, but I don't see it as a perk honestly. I don't live in the Us so debt is not a problem here. Tattoos are kinda fine, maybe not too much, whatever, this is really personal taste.

wtknight · 2018-08-03T12:35:25+00:00

I think that for 1 and 3, men prefer women who are like them. Most educated men would like a woman who is educated (meaning she might have college debt), and most men who like tattoos would like a woman who is into them (meaning there’s a good chance she’ll have some too). So I think the article misses the point on this one.

As for the virgin thing, I think men in the West are split between the ones who don’t care at all and the ones who don’t mind a slightly experienced woman but not one who has slept with a ton of guys (if they can even find this out about her). The ones who actually prefer virgins tend to be outliers who are basing their choices on religious reasons, and who are likely low N or virgins themselves, so there is little to no hypocrisy there.

Overall, I don’t think the article reflects general western mentality at the moment. Men tend to want women who are equals, or at least close to equals in the case of Red Pill men who want relationships (first mate is pretty close to captain in status). Thinking that the modern western man still wants a pure, uneducated unicorn is out of touch with today’s generation, and I don’t think that today’s women feel any pressure to be that based upon the number of men who still choose them for relationships despite them not being that.

Daniel_Bryan_Fan · 2018-08-03T13:07:09+00:00

Debt free is a euphemism for didn’t go to college. Meaning they want an uneducated woman they can more easily manipulate. This stuff falls more into Christian complementarianism and their awful treatment of women rather than the red pill which isn’t looking to get married.

[deleted] · 2018-08-03T15:16:17+00:00

It depends on the debt. Being debt-free while working at Walmart is less desirable than being $200,000 in debt while being a cardiologist.
Virginity is severely overrated. Virgins are inexperienced. They don’t know how to have good sex! Virgins are often virgins for bad reasons. They’re often extremely religious, or they possess sanctimonious ideas about sex. Some of them have done everything other then PIV sex, but they still consider themselves virgins: “Lol. Anal sex doesn’t count. I’m a virgin. Lol.” And there’s also the “post-virgin regret” problem. Some women regret that they’ve been sexually active with only one man, and so they feel the need to explore what it’s like to be with someone else.
Almost all tattoos are ugly, in my opinion.

flamingoinghome · 2018-08-03T07:41:28+00:00

Did you actually read the article? It said little to nothing about waiting for marriage to have sex, and only two words about tattoos. It was a screed against women going to college, and a poorly written one at that ("less babies"?). Heck, I actually hit two out of three of those qualities, and I am about as far as can be from what the author was trying to invoke.

It's fine and understandable to prefer your partner not have debt, lots of people don't find tattoos attractive, and even preferring a virginal or less experienced partner is fine under a lot of circumstances (I'll admit it's never quite "clicked" for me, but each to their own). It's a different thing entirely to claim that being educated is a poor quality in a partner, or that pursuing an education is an anti-love or anti-marriage choice.

Aggressive_Beta · 2018-08-03T03:19:53+00:00

I disagree on two points. First, no woman is wife material because marriage is a horrible deal for men even with a debt/tattoo free woman with n=0.

Secondly, telling women what they should prefer is very blue pill. You cannot negotiate attraction, and women are more attracted to men who demonstrate pre-selection (which being a virgin does the opposite). Lots of women are attracted to men with tattoos because it makes them look dangerous...or, at least it used to before tattoos became so commonplace that they're not even remotely taboo anymore. They don't care if he's tatted up or drowning in debt as long as he's sufficiently alpha.

But I do agree that n=0 and no debt/tattoos is preferable for women. 99.9% of the time, tattoos on women are disgusting. It makes them look dirty, or like they have AIDS from needles being stuck in them.

KikiYuyu · 2018-08-03T03:31:04+00:00

The only reason a man shouldn't prefer a virgin is if he has some bizarre misconceptions about sex or something.

Also, calling tattoos a deal-breaker is pretty damn shallow. It's fine if you prefer them not to have any, but to write it off because of that? Silly.

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admiral_snugglebutt · 2018-08-03T05:48:25+00:00

I used to prefer men who had fewer Partners, but then I realized that a quality sex partner is really important to me, and I found that more experience was a pretty major benefit.

[deleted] · 2018-08-03T10:46:27+00:00

Do whatever you want. When you struggle to find a debt free virgin without tattoos, or when she has sexual hang ups because she's never had sex, don't come crying to us.

i_have_a_semicolon · 2018-08-03T12:06:18+00:00

Men can do whatever they want , tbh. I do not care really. Because there will be men who don't prefer those things.

lalabats · 2018-08-03T12:32:22+00:00

The only claim that I think is unreasonable is the debt seeing as how the article connects debt to having a college education. Assuming that a serious and secure marriage proposal does not exist before college entrance, attending college for even a short amount of time gives the female something to fall back on if she doesnt get married young. As for virginity and tattoos, I can definetly see why men would prefer these, and as long as the female is fairly young and of good moral character, they really shouldn't be a problem. But ya' know, preferences.

lucky_beast · 2018-08-03T12:58:23+00:00

Debt free is the only one that is universally superior.

Sometimes virgins are open to new stuff and that's cool, other times they've got all kinds of issues to sort out or are just unskilled and unadventurous. So it can be a toss up.

Some tattoos are really cool and add character. So that's a toss up.

As far as I know that original article was from some tradcon thot so I'm not inclined to take her opinion too seriously.

BajaBlast90 · 2018-08-03T17:31:00+00:00

What demographic of men?

There are men out there who have tattoos and/or have debt themselves.

Tbh this is kind of a joke to all the women who are dating men with tattoos themselves.

[deleted] · 2018-08-03T21:05:39+00:00

They can prefer whoever they want, but at some point they have to realize the debt-free virgins with no tattoos is not guarantee to prefer them so if they want to actually find someone they may have to settle for the less than perfect partner.

warlords203 · 2018-08-05T10:47:11+00:00

Well i dont think anyone wants to enter a relationship with someone who has baggage, whether it be emotional or financial

virgins is an interesting concept because if we are talking about virgins it would be hypocrtitical from the point of a lot of men because most men would have had sexual relations with at least a few women before they themselves are lookinf for something serious so its kind of unfair to ask for someone whos a virgin. I think men who dont get a lot of action might feel threatened by a girl who has gotten laid so could be a reason. However with all this being said it goes without saying that a chick who bangs a lot of dudes probably has issues with her self esteem, lacks hobbies (otherwise she would have a lot better things to do) and possibly doesnt put a lot of importance in exclusivity

Tattoos really depend, some women who are in creative fields might get tattoss which are very artistically oriented. Those are very much appreciated as long as its not obscene or a tramp stamp. However women who get tattoos for the sake of it can be a put off because it looks like they are following herd mentality but not that much of a put off where i would see it as a red flag

DaphneDK42 · 2018-08-03T05:23:04+00:00

I think the debt-free part is pretty lame since you have to figure in the problem of student debt, especially in the U.S. That requirement selects against people who went to college (70% graduate with debt now apparently) and nowadays is more likely to select for people who didn't go to college at all. Whether or not you're okay with marrying someone with no more than a high school diploma is a matter of personal preference. There are plenty of successful people who didn't go to college. But for me it's a dealbreaker. I tried making it work once, and I just could not relate to him in the way I can with fellow students/college graduates.

I'd prefer a virgin with no tattoos though, so you have a point there. The latter is only a 100% dealbreaker if the tattoos are super obvious and can't be covered up by everyday clothing. My parents hate tattoos, and I would never marry someone without getting their approval first.

ThunderbearIM · 2018-08-03T07:19:57+00:00

1) all about the type of debt, but if it's sustainable from her side and we still can own a place to live, I'm good

2) don't give one shit, as long as she won't keep going after we get together it won't hurt me.

3) Tattoos can be hot as fuck.

EDIT: I'd struggle with marrying a good christian woman, in fear of being bored to shit. This woman has no idea how all men think and uses the bible to support her claims, this is not scientific, just bullshit.

YaAmar · 2018-08-03T10:40:04+00:00

hahahahahahaha. And I prefer an harem of a hundred, eighteen year olds Angelina Jolies over having a steady girlfriend, but that ain't gonna happen. The time of the Turkish Sultans are over, and considering my luck, I probably would have been the enuch responsible for taking care of all of those hotties. Guess what, most men are not going to get what they want. Though break.

I am of a mind that I don't care about virginity in women. I've been with a few virgins and I detested all of the work that it was, to convince them that I was going to stick around, and then the whole procedure of having to deflower them. It's boring as fuck. Now a girl who knows how to fuck like a pornstar, and if she fucked alot of guys to get that way - I don't care.

I don't believe in marriage. I don't believe lifelong monogamy is possible in this time and day. I don't believe my generation, the millenials, are going to have marriages lasting even 10 years, without at least getting cheated on, physically or emotionally.

[deleted] · 2018-08-03T10:29:50+00:00

Virgins are either religious and frigid or ugly or awkward or otherwise defective. In either case that's not ideal.

Debt-free, yeah obviously that's a no-brainer. Another reason I think university is stupid and pointless for most people.

Without tattoos nah fuck that I love tattoos they're sexy. I follow all the Suicide Girls on IG.

gunbusterxl · 2018-08-03T10:52:23+00:00

Of course I'd want someone debt free, but that's not realistic. It'd be better to say someone not in an excessive amount of debt.

Virgin isn't realistic either. I don't like people that sleep around (men or women) so I'd never marry a girl with a high n-count. But a virgin? Good luck finding one.

Yeah, tattoos are fucking trashy. Though I'd rather marry a non-smoker with a few tattoos, than a smoker with no tattoos.

I'm picky, though. I wouldn't marry anyone other than a stable woman that's got her shit together, doesn't have kids, doesn't smoke / do drugs (including weed, you fucking stoners), has her own life goals, spoke SAE (accents are sexy), and majored in something useful in college.

[deleted] · 2018-08-03T12:52:22+00:00

All three of these things are markers for women who make poor wives. These are all interrelated issues but slightly different.

--low future time orientation. She's thinking about right now, not next week, next month, next year. She cannot or will not plan. She's disorganized in her thinking and the way she lives short term and long term. Poor executive functioning.

--impulsivity. Makes decisions on spur of the moment without regard to time, future consequence, present plan, or resources to execute. "Thinks" emotionally much more than rationally.

--inability or unwillingness to think things through all the way to the end before acting.

--low conscientiousness, as someone else said. In essence, that's acting without thinking.

--low inhibitions. More likely to form emotional attachments too easily. Too open with others who don't have her best interests. She then gets used and exploited. Poor judge of character - her own and others. More likely to cheat.

--exhibitionism, especially the tattoo part. Craves male attention more than most and is willing to mark up her body to get it. The only reason to get a tat is to show others, and we all know what showing your skin to others tends to lead to.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-08-03T03:20:37+00:00

they should, who cares?

Uncommon_Sense_12345 · 2018-08-03T03:23:42+00:00

Because you can't judge a book by its cover.

And you are describing a rare woman so you might as well be talking about alien hook-ups and abductions.

killallthenarcs · 2018-08-03T08:45:53+00:00

People should seriously consider not holding onto very restrictive preferences if they are the sort to fester like a very obvious carbuncle when they don't get exactly their preferences. In that case (which I used to think was uncommon until I encountered reddit) unless they've been monumentally lucky to get their preferences or extremely high value and able to dictate preferences and get them (billionaire underwear model with a great sense of humor?) they need to start getting the fuck over their preferences or learn to be unhappily unsatisfied in a less whiny and irritating manner.

I mean like seriously, if you're not getting a tattoo free virgin who doesn't even owe a hundred dollars on an entirely useful credit card then that's your problem and if you keep it strictly your problem no-one will be upset. It is the whining we hate the most. That is the problem with preferring such women (or indeed, such men) the whining.

We all have problems getting what we want, we all want more than we are likely to get. Keep that in mind and avoid being mocked. When you advise others that certain preferences have certain advantages, if you truly care about the people you are advising keep in mind the general dangers in preferences and frame your advice in such a manner that they don't end up unhappy, whining and socially ostracized until they stop the appalling noise.

It isn't the preferring it is whether you've got the sense to prefer in a manner that doesn't make people want to throw you out the boat. Thus endeth today's lesson on preferences.