TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

50
  • Introduction

In my opinion TRPs descriptions of female nature have always sounded more like bitter ramblings and a very obvious lack of experience with women than like accurate descriptions of how women typically are.

I think it's only fair if we start this by quoting some TRP sources on female nature so if you have read the sidebar already you can skip this whole next part.

  • Female nature according to TRP

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3tcvz4/why_you_shouldnt_explain_female_nature_to_women/

Women are mentally handicapped as a factory setting upon birth to allow them to navigate the sexual market place to their advantage with optimized efficiency (no cognitive dissonance) while pursuing the female imperative. Nature has sabotaged their psyche with installments of inhibitory components and psychological defense mechanisms to fulfill a purpose.

The framework from which all female psychology is built within, is solipsism. A characteristic of this condition is what she feels, is. The mere existence of that feeling is justification of its validity along with the behavior to which it manifests itself. The second condition from which all else follows is self-inductance, or to reflexively resist external changes toward the current narrative of reality that her immediate feelings produce. A woman’s brain does this by activating a series of interconnected psychological defense mechanisms.

Women find it very difficult to conduct introspection because standing between themselves and reality, is a veil of fog, a cloud of emotion (the first installed inhibitory component). This emotive haze is the atmosphere that acts as a filter from which she perceives reality. Light is allowed through, but is bent and distorted, providing an incomplete image or an outright fabrication of what lies beyond.

This cloud of emotion has a fog generator; it is what we call, the ‘hamster’ (the second installed inhibitory component). The hamster is the instrument by which the veil of fog acquires its amorphous shape and opaqueness, a rationalization mechanism that incites and maintains the dissociation.

She re-frames the situation in a way that portrays herself as the victim of unknown circumstance and intentional wrong doing, justifying rebellion and ignorance, but most importantly, absolving her of all guilt. The idea behind this process is to retain the feelings of before, then redirect the blame

https://illimitablemen.com/2015/06/30/the-nature-of-women/

To understand women with at least some degree of competence, one must firstly understand Machiavellianism. Once they understand Machiavellianism, they must come to understand dissociation. After understanding dissociation, the next logical step is to understand dissociation’s relationship with rationalisation, for rationalisation is reason built upon fantasy. A hoax, but one that can only be identified as such once you have investigated its origin.

Most within the red pill community come to know of rationalisation before dissociation; I suspect many know not what dissociation is in spite of its relation to rationalisation. Without dissociation, the reality removing mechanism on which feminine solipsism is predicated, rationalisation lacks the conviction needed to be convincing. The most compelling of a woman’s performances thus requires dissociation to masquerade as truth. If she did not believe her lies, neither would you.

If womankind did not possess an infinite capacity for dissociation, the effectiveness of her manipulations would be greatly vitiated. Such a woman would be unable to leverage her sexuality into attaining commitment once she’d had more than a few partners. Her sexuality would be utilised and disposed of like something to be consumed, as once perceived a whore, she would become her sexuality and deemed to lack essence in absence of it.

A woman would get what she deserves, rather than what she wanted or needed if she could not dissociate. Luckily, nature has equipped women with an instinctual proclivity to dissociate.

Machiavellianism, dissociation and rationalisation lie at the root and core of female behaviour. Female manipulation is about as natural as much as it is instinctual.

The histrionic self-delusion inherent of women is an effective substitution for psychopathy if you need to get something done at any cost, but aren’t actually a psychopath. Man has always been baffled by how someone who feels great sympathy for others can seemingly, as if by choice, turn off such sympathy without a shred of guilt. This is a behavioural observation unique to women noted by many men in many places.

What they are observing is a woman dissociating in order to withdraw sympathy where she once felt it. Even after reading red pill material man does not completely understand this aspect of women, the moral and logical gymnastics native to womankind continues to baffle man because man is a creature of reason and morals more than he is pragmatism. For women, this is not so.

https://illimitablemen.com/2015/12/16/the-awalt-misconception/

AWALT does not claim that “all women are the same”, this is patently false, and is as such an absurd claim to make. Rather, AWALT presupposes that women are collectively governed by a set of underlying principles which drives their behaviour. It then alludes to the principles, as well as the behaviours which result from said principles whenever they become relevant in discussion.

For example, hypergamy, solipsism, Machiavellianism and immaturity are principles which make up the AWALT umbrella. Behaviours resulting from those principles would be branch swinging, blame shifting and emotional impulsiveness, among others.

AWALT broken down to the most basic level is simple acknowledgement of aspects relating to female nature, no more, no less.

https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/160b5u/woman_the_most_responsible_teenager_in_the_house/

The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight and twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is a reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling things to the most important.

Skip up to here

  • Lack of supporting evidence

In conclusion TRP-"science" claims that female nature is made up of solipsism, Machiavellianism, dissociation, rationalization, living in the moment, difficulty to conduct introspection and immaturity.

As we all know TRP as a whole doesn't care about facts and never even bothered to do any research before relying on their feelings to come up with ideas about female nature, so let's do the opposite and take a look at what research has to say:

  • Machiavellianism

http://teamvdf.free.fr/TER%20M1/Machiavellianism%20a%20synthesis%20of%20the%20evolutionary.pdf

Most studies of Machiavellianism that include male and female participants find gender differences. Generally, the distributions of Mach scores for male and female participants are broadly overlapping with the mean slightly lower for female participants (exceptions are cited below in Multiple strategies within the genders). More important, the correlations between Mach score and behavior in subsequent tests are usually stronger or different in male than in female participants (Allsopp et al., 1991; Brown & Guy, 1983; Dingler-Duhon & Brown, 1987; Domelsmith & Dietch, 1978; O'Conner & Simms, 1990; Rosenthal, 1978; Van Strien, Duikjers, & Van der Kamp, 1982). According to Christie and Geis (1968), "With but one or two exceptions, no studies have found predicted relationships between agreement with Machiavellianism and predicted or other behavior among female subjects, but these are almost invariably found among male subjects" (p. 963). Although the literature since 1968 does not warrant such a strong statement, several authors still conclude that the entire construct of Machiavellianism is more appropriate for men than for women (e.g., Brown & Guy, 1983; Rosenthal, 1978).

  • Impulsiveness

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21219058

We analyzed 741 effect sizes from 277 studies, including psychometric and behavioral measures. Women were consistently more punishment sensitive (d = -0.33), but men did not show greater reward sensitivity (d = 0.01). Men showed significantly higher sensation seeking on questionnaire measures (d = 0.41) and on a behavioral risk-taking task (d = 0.36). Questionnaire measures of deficits in effortful control showed a very modest effect size in the male direction (d = 0.08). Sex differences were not found on delay discounting or executive function tasks.

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2017/08/17/testosterone-makes-men-more-impulsive

Aggression is not, however, the only behavioural trait that seems to differ between the sexes. Generally speaking, males are also more impulsive than females. And that, too, may be linked with testosterone levels — a link that Gideon Nave at the University of Pennsylvania and Amos Nadler at Western University in Ontario have recently been exploring.

  • Introspectiveness

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0097840X.1985.9936755

Women, Jews, and certain Hispanic groups were higher on introspectiveness than other students

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101118123840.htm

The area of the brain active while resting (the "default mode network") is more active for women than men. "We are the first group to report sex differences in this network using fMRI," says Mendrek. "The more active resting female brain may explain their reported ability to multi-task and be more introspective than men"

  • Living in the moment / lack of future orientation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4827712/

Studies that measure future orientation more generically have tended to find that girls have a stronger future orientation as measured by a lower likelihood of fatalistic beliefs (8) and higher self-reports of motivation, time perspective, and planning

  • Conclusion

TRP has quite clearly missed the mark on several core aspects of female nature, because -instead of basing those ideas on actual measurable gender differences- they based them on hurt feeling, bitter ramblings and cherry picked anecdotes instead; which simply isn't a good basis for any theory.


[–]Splodge_Bob_WetPantsFind Balance20 points21 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men Flock to TRP because it explains the behaviors that women have been displaying to them. The problem with these studies is it does not explain how they selected the participants of if they accounted for the halo effect, as this Study points out

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess my problem with these studies is that when you operationalize a new "scale" of courses being "(a) math orientation, (b) science orientation, (c) gender bias (against women), (d) helpful orientation, (e) money orientation, and (f) creative orientation." ... and then measure the perception of "gender bias (against women)" with these 3 questions (likert scale):

  • “Women in this major experience discrimination based on their gender,”

  • “Women have a hard time succeeding in this major,” and

  • “This major is more welcoming to men than women.”

Then it seems obvious to me without even surveying the n=330 that you are going to arrive at conclusions such as; "engineering is perceived as highly math oriented, science oriented, gender biased, and money oriented."

And ultimately its only measuring perceptions of high school students. To me a faulty perception sounds like a problem worth addressing, but maybe the reason I took math in high school and didn't select it in university was because it was a required course in the former. Maybe the first question is skewed because of the rise of "discrimination awareness" in the media.... Maybe I wasn't good or interested in math and those reasons influenced my responses, etc. etc.

IDK though, it wasnt my specialization, my main concern is really that people and the media simplify studies beyond its scope of the PERCEPTION OF DISCRIMINATION and instead they argue SYSTEMIC DISCRIMINATION and then take intervention to ensure "equality of outcomes" because that would be bad.

but that's just my 2 cents

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So you've gone and cherrypicked some studies yourself, congratulations.

The biggest bombshell here is that a bloop is actually admitting there's biological and neurological differences between men and women.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 10 points11 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So you've gone and cherrypicked some studies yourself, congratulations.

Some of these are meta studies that looked at several hundred studies. That's not cherry picking, that's looking at all the available research.

Which is a million times better than just relying on hurt feelings.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But you have cherrypicked data that agrees with your existing view.

I mean don't get me wrong, yes studies are better than anecdotes, but your title here is literally attacking terps for cherrypicking when you've gone and done the exact same thing.

Although with all that said, I also sympathise with the idea terps chuck around here often which is that if they read something, apply it, and it works for them, they have no reason to care if some study somewhere says it's wrong.

For example just to plug my own life a bit, there's a lot of stats out there which say most startups fail. Guess what I started a business anyway. If it happens to be a success, I'm not going to care if stats say most fail, because mine didn't. And besides, those stats also include people who mismanage their businesses terribly or start ventures with overhead so high they could never be profitable to begin with, etc.

At the end of the day they're making decisions about their own lives and their own actions as individuals. There's no reason for them to care about a study of 1,000 college students in 1978 if at the end of the day what they do works for them.

[–]concacanca2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Decent summation of my standpoint on RP actually. I don't care overly about studies, especially psych studies which are often self reported anyway, over experience in determining my life.

If a guy gets cheated on in his past three relationships, he's probably going to be cautious going forward and look for explanations about the causes of that behaviour. He isn't going to look up some stats on cheating and think 'oh well I'm just unlucky!'. There is clearly something about him and his choices that need to change.

Put another way - when economists and politicians come out lauding strong economic growth, it means fuck all to the guy working three jobs.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly.

And to be completely frank, there are some things so obvious you don't need a study to tell you.

If your guy gets cheated on three times he knows there's something wrong and looking up statistics is the last thing any normal human would do in such a situation. By nature we respond to our environment and experiences. We aren't machines.

[–]cholomite7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You can tell me gravity exists and show me the studies, but if I go outside and throw a ball into the air every day, and it never falls back down, would you really blame me for not believing your scientific study?

The stuff on the red pill works. A guy can spend a couple hours reading, go outside and implement this stuff and observe the results. That's always going to be more powerful and effective than showing someone charts and graphs.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

"it works better than being a completely clueless omega" isn't the same as "it works equally well on all women" nor does it mean "it's theories about women are correct"

[–]cholomite8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The red pill says "if you do X, you will get Y result".

So guys go out and do X, and low and behold, they get Y result, despite the blue pill telling them they won't. Do you really blame them for not giving a shit about some "study" funded by a liberal think tank or university? If the red pill told then they'd get Y result, and they didn't, they wouldn't come back and the community wouldn't have become what it is today. The red pill gives ideas and strategies that you can use within 15 minutes of reading the content. If it didn't work, people wouldn't keep coming back and reading. Sure, maybe 1 out if 10 times you'll get an outlier, but the red pill is a 100% results driven community, it's not a philosophy debate with open ended ideas (although it has those elements). Going out and seeing the results for yourself, first hand will always trump whatever some university or research group says is true.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But don't you understand the difference between "it works" and "it's theories about women are correct"?

It works - best on AWALT women and poorly on women with a secure attachment style, which is the most common attachment style yet these women don't seem to exist in the world of TRP.

It works, but it also reinforces their ideas about female nature. All their theories on female nature are based on a limited sample of women that are attracted to narcissists with a dismissive-avoidant attachment style, which tend to be more manipulative, immature, attention seeking and drama loving.

It's a self-reinforcing cycle and all their ideas about female nature are very clearly based on a very limited experience with different kinds of women.

[–]cholomite7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've never met a woman who didn't respond in some way to a red pill idea or strategy. It works, albeit not as effectively on every single woman, but it does work on ALL women. The man is also a variable, because it is possible for a guy to screw up a red pill strategy and have it not be as effective, but it will always be more effective than whatever study you can find that says "women are actually attracted to this, not that."

The blue pills problem is that they don't offer an alternative, they just present studies that say "look, women really do prefer guys who do chores" and like clockwork, some married guy will read the red pill stuff, stop doing chores and he will get positive results and keep coming back and reading more even though the blue pill study told him it's not true.

The red pill is much broader than you think, there are guys from foreign countries, city guys, country guys, rich guys and poor guys, old guys and young guys, and all these guys are going out and meeting a wide range of women. The strategies work better on some, but the fact that they work somewhat on ALL women is what makes it such a successful sub.

Isn't the fact that it works proof that it's theories are correct? I also think that blue pill guys have a different idea of what a successful dating and sex life is like, so maybe it's like apples to oranges.

[–]EminemLovesGrapesSpongebob6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I always saw TRP as people throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Of course TRP isn't peer reviewed research. It's just your normal under-average men taking in what above average (or old) men are saying and parroting it everywhere.

It makes sense to me that they would take as much a risk-average approach as they can to minimize the potential hurt to themselves. Or as some TRP people would say so it pertains to the most amount of women.

AWALT works because if you blanket paint women as one thing you can never be taken off guard. Which might mean that the risk you could've taken could've had you end up with a women you love but hey.

Don't get married works because it makes you unable to get Brendan Frasier-ed but it might also shoo away that one women who would've stayed with you until your death do you part. Again, just a risk not worth taking.

One of it's core tenants is to just see for yourself. I doubt everyone on TRP and all those bloggers are spouting shit that doesn't work... although I can definitely see the TRP subreddit as one giant echochamber.

I don't think many people there have actually approached women and taken TRP knowledge into practice.

I definitely understand TRP doesn't take actual research as evidence because there's a lot of ""research"" out there that's blatantly done to fabricate a result. Things like manipulating statistics, wrong sample sizes or wrong samples. Citing a single sentence from a paper that has the opposite conclusion to fabricate your own narrative behind it. Because we all know people don't actually read any of the papers anyone quotes.

Research can be just as clouded with the toxic views society has on men just as men have with women on TRP.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think many people there have actually approached women and taken TRP knowledge into practice.

The more you apply TRP knowledge the more you select for women who display these negative AWALT traits. It's a self reinforcing cycle, but that doesn't make it any truer.

[–]EminemLovesGrapesSpongebob4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that TRP has a certain viewpoint or perspective it draws its conclusions from. The bar scene, the club scene, even tinder to a degree. And that's filled with AWALT. Filled entitled pieces of nothing special.

And TRP works on them pretty well. AWALT is more of an archetype to me. Just like there exists other archetypes. Women who don't frequent these places. More introverted women.... who knows. And that takes a slightly different approach.

I suppose that's why I'm purple, not red.

[–]aNationofTwo 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Don't get married works because...Again, just a risk not worth taking.

So avoid all risks in life? Maybe I should avoid all human contact since people have germs and I might get sick. This risk-aversion argument is dumb but at its heart there is another word: Cowardice. What would you think of a generation of people who were too dainty and soft to get married? We are not talking about enlisting for combat or volunteering to clear a mine field here.

[–]EminemLovesGrapes 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

You're blowing it out of proportion here.

"don't get married" and be a shut-in" are not even in the same ballpark.

We are not talking about enlisting for combat or volunteering to clear a mine field here.

There's a reason I mention Brendan Frasier here. Have you seen how he looks, how he acts? vs. how he was in the mummy. Maybe I don't want to get married because I'll end up in a fucking deadbedroom or have to divorce and give half of my income away to alimony and the other half to bills for my entire life.

TRP is not saying to avoid all risks. TRP is saying, "don't take more than you have to".

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You do you.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nice debunking! Have an upvote.

At the end of the day, people are just people. Some are more rational, compassionate, competent, emotional, etc., than others. I haven't noticed much of a division along gender lines.

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What a nice strawman. AWALT really only refers to hypergamy. Women are solipsistic, because they will only take into account their self-interest (or other women's self-interest) in regards to contexts where men are disproportionately more harmed, e.g. "women are the primary victims of war".

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ah of course, quoting the sideba is a strawman. Makes sense

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's how you misrepresent their views in culmination with quote mining. You didn't even really tackle actually fundamental , scientifically grounded principles that are the vitally important ones.

[–]reddishrobin0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Like what principles?

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Primarily hypergamy

https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(17)30315-X/fulltext

or how our evolutionary history shapes sexual intergender dynamics.

For example, women have out reproduced men on roughly a 3:1 ratio for the entire reproductive history of humanity. In some extreme environments, it's been documented that this ratio can spike up to 17:1. He also denies findings that have been found in modern data sets -- for example, women view 80 percent of men as below average in attraction. It's very telling that he has to tunnel vision on a post that focuses on a very particular and precise idea in the TRP and then extrapolates that to account for all of the views on female nature as expressed by TRP and other associated groups.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere9 points10 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This was kind of surprising to me considering that most soldiers, terrorists, killers and such are men yet for some reason it's seen as something unique to women.

Women would be all those things if they were more physically capable. Men can take your life, but women try to make you wish you were dead.

[–]weaver420junkie prude5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

it doesnt take much physical power to kill someone. humankind has been able to use tools for some time now.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men beat the shit out of you physically.

Women beat the shit out of you verbally, mentally and emotionally.

[–]yaseedog will hunt-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thanks louis CK

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I actually didn't even hear that from him. Is it word for word? I criticized someone once for directly quoting Patrice O'Neal like it was their own saying.

[–]yaseedog will hunt-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not word for word, just a similar sentiment :) no harm no foul

[–]AloneOnTheStrange7 points8 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Is it anecdotal? Yes. Do we care? No. Does it make it wrong? No.

The reason TRP resonates with so many people is because it our own experiences. We realize it applies to almost every girl we know, with few exceptions. Most red pillers have a lightswitch moment, where everything just clicks, in a way that no other explanations have. Suddenly we know what girls go for. We know why we've gotten such terrible dating advice before. We know why girls seem to be so blissfully unaware of all their attraction dynamics. And once we learn it, we see it everywhere.

If it wasn't accurate for us, and for the girls in our lives, we wouldn't have that lightswitch moment. Sure, anecdotal evidence may not be convincing to others, and we don't care. TRP is there to help us. If others don't want, or don't need that help, then that's no skin off my back.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Is it anecdotal? Yes. Do we care? No. Does it make it wrong? No.

I just showed that traits like Macheviallianism would actually better describe male instead female nature, so how is it not wrong?

The reason TRP resonates with so many people is because it our own experiences. We realize it applies to almost every girl we know, with few exceptions. Most red pillers have a lightswitch moment, where everything just clicks, in a way that no other explanations have. Suddenly we know what girls go for. We Know-how why we've gotten such terrible dating advice before. We know why girls seem to be so blissfully unaware of all their attraction dynamics. And once we learn it, we see it everywhere.

Selection bias.

You don't know how many men take a glance at TRP and walk right away due to all the bitterness and pseudo-scientific misogyny.

[–]AloneOnTheStrange2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I just showed that traits like Macheviallianism would actually better describe male instead female nature, so how is it not wrong?

First, I don't care about men being machiavellian. This is about female nature, not male nature.

Second, I don't care what studies say. If every study in the world said women were 0% machiavellian I would still disagree, because it's what my personal experience shows.

You don't know how many men take a glance at TRP and walk right away due to all the bitterness and pseudo-scientific misogyny.

Yes, and like I said, we don't care if others disagree.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Second, I don't care what studies say. If every study in the world said women were 0% machiavellian I would still disagree, because it's what my personal experience shows.

But that's exactly why TRP is not any different than homeopathy, creationism and conspiracy theories.

Disregarding research in favor of feelings simply isn't a good basis for theories.

[–]AloneOnTheStrange1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I can't say for certain, but I doubt conspiracy theorists have that same "lightswitch moment" I mentioned before. I suspect most conspiracy theorists have a constant uphill battle to rationalize their observed reality from contradicting their delusions. Whereas TRP is the opposite. Once you swallow it, you can't not see it in every interaction with women you have.

[–]weaver420junkie prude3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

First, I don't care about men being machiavellian. This is about female nature, not male nature.

no point in calling it female nature when it's actually just human nature then

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Especially if the sidebar frames these traits as if they are exclusive to women.

[–]AloneOnTheStrange1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really. In fact Machiavellianism is a specific Dark Triad male trait.

[–]AloneOnTheStrange0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. It's a standard human trait. But from a TRP perspective it's important to understand that Machiavellian behaviour has a specific roll in the SMP, and that women, beta males, and alpha males all have their own specific variety of Machiavellian behaviour.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If every study in the world said women were 0% machiavellian I would still disagree, because it's what my personal experience shows.

I mean, if thats your starting point, then really theres no point in ever having a discussion right? "If there is conclusive proof of X then show me and I will not believe it" seems like an idiotic starting position for any side to take.

[–]AloneOnTheStrange1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Eh, I would be kind of open to discussion, but I would be unlikely to change my view about that particular thing. To be fair, denying women (and men) are Machiavellian is a tall order. I mean, it's a basic human character trait. If you were to try to change my view you would have to explain the observed sexual and social dynamics in terms of no Machiavelianism.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not disagreeing with you on the facts, only on the sentiment. The proof would have to be substantial, but if it existed, it would have to be accepted otherwise proof has no value

[–]AloneOnTheStrange0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If it was substantial, I would be likely to consider it. But when it comes to disproving something you see every day, there would have to be some pretty serious proof. And that's why psychological studies just don't cut it. I think my standard for falsification is fair. I believe in TRP because it explains why I see. If something else could explain what I say, I would reconsider TRP.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I honestly read the comment and replied outside any and all context until you replied but stand with my point;) as irrelevant as it may be on the particular case

[–]goatismycopilot 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I get the impression TRP dudes date a lot of batshit crazy chicks. Because they want to.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

This is half of it, but remember that thread about their crazy mothers? Batshit aunts?

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman8 points9 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Oh right I forgot. Plus they raised in helicopter parent mode where everybody applauded stuff.

[–]aNationofTwo 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Damaged boys who grew into bitter men.

[–]LewisCross 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

circlejerking

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's okay when they do it, but if we do it at get banned.

[–]LewisCross 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I'll probably get a wrist slap for reporting it.

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Hell, our little comment chain here will probably get us banned for "circlejerking".

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

nah, most of women for our view are crazy, yet for a different reason.

like we talked before, men see behavior based on the assumption you or your feelings have any value to society as completely crazy.

We and our feelings have no value (if not a negative one), it is hard to imagine a world were it is not like that. after I accepted that view, the 80% of women I thought were crazy, started sounding not so much. (although a good 5% are still beyound my comprehension).

men are just diferent, do not denigrate us because you can also not see our point of view. Okay?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

OK, great. Now do not denigrate us.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't.

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Dudes who pick women based on looks with total disregard to their character will get a bunch of bad women in their lives.

[–]SpaceC4sePurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most 10's are used to being placed on the pedestal and having everything handed to them. This can only result in a spoiled temperament

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

how does this challenge the view?

[–]GridReXXit be like that[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Make it more apparent in comment how it challenges OP’s view.

[–]BajaBlast9010 points11 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Machiavellianism as a part of female nature.

Intense eye rolling

Go to any RP blog/site and there are game guides based on Machiavellianism principles or 48 Laws of Power. It's so painfully obvious how hard Red Piller guys are projecting/blame shifting.

[–]darla103 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

They’ve been manipulated so now they study how to manipulate back.

[–]BajaBlast906 points7 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

So according to your logic it's ok if women who have been manipulated also manipulate back.

Lol I love the downvotes because no one wants to be called out on their hypocrisy and bullsh*t

[–]SilentLurker6660 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

That's not what he said. He's saying if women does it, so should men. We aren't saying either is okay, we are saying that's how the game is played.

[–]abriefhistory_Supporter of science and respect4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

You know what'd be awesome? If people stopped perpetuating behavior that they themselves dislike or feel harmed by. I can understand the frustration and pain that might lead someone to think, "They did it to me, so I should do it to them," but I think we as humans would be better off if we made an effort to behave more respectfully and treat people the way we'd like to be treated. "An eye for an eye" just keeps the cycle going.

I've had a number of negative experiences with men and in past relationships, but by no means do I think that they're representative of all men. Also, I've never had the desire to "get even" with men (whether it's the exact men I've been hurt by or new men I meet).

Before I act in my daily life, I actively think, "Will this hurt someone else?" I would never consciously manipulate someone, because I think that's cruel. One major criticism I have of TRP is that some of it is very manipulative. "But women manipulate men too" doesn't fly for me as justification. How about being a decent person, regardless of gender and regardless of what other people do...

It's unfortunate how selfish and vindictive people can be.

Edit: Not really sure why this has been downvoted, especially given that it's against the rules of the sub...

[–]BajaBlast902 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

@abriefhistory

If only people approached personal connections with a rational mind such as this. If you don't like getting f*cked over don't fuck other people over. Pretty simple.

Then you get the hypcritical motherfuckers (men AND women alike) who will screw people over continually then the moment they get screwed over they start moaning about it.

[–]abriefhistory_Supporter of science and respect1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yup!

Then you get the hypcritical motherfuckers (men AND women alike) who will screw people over continually then the moment they get screwed over they start moaning about it.

I see so much of this on reddit. I’m still pretty new to PPD, but I see it a fair bit here too.

[–]BajaBlast902 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I can't stand it. These people lack the personal responsibility and accountability. It's sad.

[–]abriefhistory_Supporter of science and respect1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I know. Sometimes I’m shocked to find out that some of these people are almost twice my age. (I’m in my 20s.)

[–]BajaBlast900 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Meh. I'm not. There are a surprising number of hypocritical shits out there.

[–]SilentLurker666-1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Lol. You still don't understand what he means and the perspective of the RP. We don't do it out of vice, but realized that manipulation is part of the game. People manipulate each other all the time and the redpill is part of the enlightenment and it opened a broad range of possibilities of what people can do in the dating scene.

Also we can describe your attitude on this with how you react when you got downvoted: Cuz I got downvoted too and I don't give two shit about reddit karma while you have to make a fuss about getting downvoted. I didn't downvote you, but I'll think it's justified. Your comment wasn't helpful and you misunderstood the previous comment.

TL:DR... there's nothing wrong with Machiavellianism.

[–]BajaBlast902 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

TL:DR... there's nothing wrong with Machiavellianism

You realize that Machiavellianism is linked to Sociopathic behavior? Dictators and Hitler were Machiavellian. Sure there are levels to it but whose going to draw that line?

[–]SilentLurker666-2 points-1 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You realize that Machiavellianism is linked to Sociopathic behavior? Dictators and Hitler were Machiavellian.

1) Slippery Slope...

2) You've also realized that 1 in 5 CEO are Psychopaths right?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-psychopaths-australian-study-finds/

Dictators and Hitler were Machiavellian, but so are a lot of people. Tom Cruise, Steve Jobs... You are literally picking people who committed genocide and then applied the trait to everyone else who's against your believes just SJW labeling everyone who's against them "Nazis".

Sure there are levels to it but whose going to draw that line?

We draw the line when the actually do harm to society. Tell me what "harm" there is to RP's teaching? In fact, the awareness of RP, especially the manipulation of women, literally save men from heartbreak, divorce, and even their lives.

[–]BajaBlast902 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

We draw the line when the actually do harm to society.

Then what are morals? Or even ethics? Because if you want to talk about CEOs' there are plenty of them who have compromised their morals and exploited people. Just because it wasn't genocide doesn't make it right either....

In fact, the awareness of RP, especially the manipulation of women, literally save men from heartbreak, divorce, and even their lives.

So then it's ok for women to have their own movement and protect themselves from the men who are destroying their lives and breaking their hearts. That goes both ways. Men are not the victim, in fact, they are just as capable of destroying lives.

[–]SilentLurker666-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Then what are morals? Or even ethics?

Morals and ethics are society's beliefs on what's just and fair. So tell me again how is RP immoral and lacking ethics? RP is amoral... not immoral.

Because if you want to talk about CEOs' there are plenty of them who have compromised their morals and exploited people.

Citation needed. By your definition any exchange of labour for monetary value is exploitation... you'll also be surprised how CEO are governed by the Board of Directors and how business ethics are heavily enforced in the corporate world.

Just because it wasn't genocide doesn't make it right either....

I've see you draw the line where Redpill knowledge = genocide... because you clearly can't differentiate between them.

So then it's ok for women to have their own movement and protect themselves from the men who are destroying their lives and breaking their hearts. That goes both ways. Men are not the victim, in fact, they are just as capable of destroying lives.

Agree. So what do you have against a group of men trying to spread knowledge on how not to get exploited by women? What do you have against the same group of people who analyze and teaches how men can maximize value gain/avoid losses in relationship with women?

[–]S1imdragxn3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I think your beef is more with biological determinism, evo psyche, scientism paradigm and other cults of that nature

Regardless of the flavor you choose to see the world with you have to admit men and women are different creatures and do have competing interests

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

All of those are pseudo sciences, which have all been mostly discredited by academics.

They are not different 'creatures'. Part of how they act differs by biology, but TRP acts to deny that socialization exists at all (it does)

[–]S1imdragxn2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Bp denies socialization too doesn’t it

When they make fun of the Disney trope and say attractive men are born not made through effort. That denies any negativity within society towards males and subjects them to the same Darwinian idea of “ shoulda saw it comin”

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

True, very true

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Evolutionary psychology isn't pseudoscience just because laymen misuse it. TRP doesn't deny that socialization exists.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Pseudoscience mate not be the best word, but the way I see it used among red pill circles is very incorrect. And I also see a lot of red pill groups that do deny socialization, claiming that humans (usually women specifically) are biologically wired to do every single thing they do, with no outside forces influencing it

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

There are RPers who think women are biologically wired to post selfies on instagram? Biologically wired to use birth control? Biologically wired to eat pasta with a fork and chinese food with chopsticks? Where are these people, pray tell?

[–]Nobodykers0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, they are wired to be more self-promoting I guess.

[–]sadomasochristnAWALT = Not red pilled1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

In group bias towards personality disordered women makes it hyperbolic, but not wrong.

All our sayings apply either way.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat1 point2 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

People who disagree with TRP tend to be bloopers of limited experience, so this OP is laughble in that it asserts of others what it displays in its own right.

The idea of "cherry picking" gives the most guffaws as one has to choose all the exceptions to the rules that TRP lays down clearly.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

People who disagree with TRP tend to be bloopers of limited experience

And people who agree with TRP tend to be incels with even more limited experience.

so this OP is laughble in that it asserts of others what it displays in its own right.

But I didn't do TRP-"science". I relied on data to come to conclusions and not solely on my hurt feelings.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And people who agree with TRP tend to be incels with even more limited experience.

I stumbled on TRP a few years ago after 30 years of dealing with women. The only reason I still hang there is becasue it is largely in accord with that 30 years of experience.

A lot of TRPers are teenagers and college kids who don't have that experience, but that is the point: wisdom passed forward.

On that point, I don't consider TRP to be "science"; it is a form of folk wisdom that guys share amongst themselves.

I still have to laugh at bloopers who think they are science driven and immune to "hurt feelings" and such.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

People who disagree with TRP tend to be bloopers of limited experience

What makes you think that? Plenty of people just have different experiences.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

With enough experience,the sum total tends to be the same. You and I can roll a pair of dice and maybe I get 8 and you get 4. Roll them enough times and a common pattern emerges for both of us.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

With enough experience,the sum total tends to be the same. You and I can roll a pair of dice and maybe I get 8 and you get 4. Roll them enough times and a common pattern emerges for both of us.

If a thousand TRPers use the same tactics there is still a selection bias that affects their experiences. Just because normal women don't exist for TRPers doesn't mean they don't exist for men who don't act like narcissists with a dismissive-avoidant attachment style as well.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That's your own biases talking, rather that speaking from a position of knowledge.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

rather that speaking from a position of knowledge

According to my experience TRP's knowledge about women seems to be very limited and narrow. Even at 15 I had a deeper understanding of women than the whole sidebar combined.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you.

[–]SilentLurker6661 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

According to my experience TRP's knowledge about women seems to be very limited and narrow. Even at 15 I had a deeper understanding of women than the whole sidebar combined.

r/im14andthisisdeep

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So you say. Ego much?

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Just because normal women don't exist for TRPers

How are you so confident in asserting that? Where's your data to back that up empirically?

For as much as you claim to be the keeper of sound science here you're going far off on a limb to project you know for a fact TRPers of any sort, collectively or individually, only and solely encounter shitty, broken women.

I'd love to know how you know Entropy-7's experience with women, mine, or anyone else's you're so quick to dismiss.

I'd also love to know how you know we're all just incels as you state:

And people who agree with TRP tend to be incels with even more limited experience.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd love to know how you know Entropy-7's experience with women, mine, or anyone else's you're so quick to dismiss.

Because you guys keep telling me how well AWALT describes your experiences with women and how well TRP has worked for you. Isn't that enough to give me a hint of what kind of women you are getting into contact with and what kind of dating strategies you employ?

I'd also love to know how you know we're all just incels as you state:

And people who agree with TRP tend to be incels with even more limited experience.

Well that was obviously in reference to

People who disagree with TRP tend to be bloopers of limited experience

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Roll them enough times and a common pattern emerges for both of us.

Random dice rolls? You get a pattern? I play a lot of Yahtzee and I have not noticed a pattern to dice.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you have not notices a pattern to dice, then you don't have an understanding of statistics. If that is the case, I can't debate with you.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

what are you smoking. Dice rolls are random. You can use statistics to gauge the probability of rolling a certain number, but unless you're playing with weighted dice, that probability should be literally the exact same for every number.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Roll 2 - six sided dice. The odds of rolling a 6 are not the same as the odds of rolling an 11.

And you ask me what I am smoking?

Reality weed aparently, something you abstain from.

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[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I mean... yeah. TRP’s idea of female nature seems to be more of a list of negative aspects of human nature that they are choosing to attribute exclusively to women as a way to absolve themselves of any wrong-doing in their relationships.

[–]OfSpock10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But amusingly, he's accusing women of all the things men do more.

[–]TheChemist158Non-Feminist Blue Pill Woman15 points16 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Dem downvotes. Kinda proving OP's point.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Welcome to reddit

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're pretty much right. I'm a sociologist, and I've yet to read a TRP theory writing that would ever flybas actual research, even in a class and not the actual field.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How dare you spring Illimitable Man on me with no warning? Now I have eye cancer. >:-(

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hope it does not metastasize quickly.

[–]concacanca3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The irony.

[–]statsfoddernot blue, not red.3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Correct... now to balance the sheet and nuke TBP/SRS and femmenazi subs for their "all men are ~~~" "all men do ~~~" bullshit and then maybe real conversation can happen...

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Show me an example of TBP that isn't just gender switched RP theory.

[–]statsfoddernot blue, not red.2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I thought TBP was just "satire", nothing of real substance, just a sub for a laugh...

Edit: I can write ferrari all over a hyundai and tell everyone I know that it is a ferrariand even believe in my core that I drive a ferrari but it won't change the fact it is a hyundai.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yes, that's why there's nothing to nuke.

There are no "all men are ~~~" sentiments on TBP except those that are just satire created by gender swtiching TRP theory.

[–]statsfodder 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

TBP advocate, PPD mod...

Yeah I'm really going to tell you that you are wrong, biased and an idiot. I may as well cut to the chase and say "Please biggerdouche ban me!", nah man, miss me with that shit.

All I will say is that TBP is a man hating cesspool masquerading as a satire sub, the misandry in there is real.

[–]PPD-AngelIncel Ban Count: 9[M] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Be civil

[–]statsfoddernot blue, not red.1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was being civil. I can't convey my thoughts as to why I won't engage with a TBP sympathizer, misandrist, mod? There is no miscommunication or double talk here, he/she/xer knows exactly why the conversation won't go any further, regardless of how they try to defend a disguised hate sub. Truth over fee-fees or nah?

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was being civil. I can't convey my thoughts as to why I won't engage with a TBP sympathizer, misandrist, mod?

Why am I a misandrist just because I disagree with TRP? Hating misogynistic pseudoscience isn't the same as hating men.

When TRP starts posts with "women are mentally handicapped" and we quote it to laugh at how absurdly bitter their theories are this simply isn't hatred against men. It's hatred against hatred.

There is no miscommunication or double talk here, he/she/xer knows exactly why the conversation won't go any further, regardless of how they try to defend a disguised hate sub.

Yes I know why the conversation won't go any further: because you don't understand the difference between feelings and facts.

Just because you feel triggered doesn't mean that your feelings are the truth. Offer evidence that shows that TBP is misandrist, but don't just try to convince me by whining.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And yet you haven't been able to offer any kind of evidence.

I simply don't trust in delusions. If you want to convince me use facts and not your feelings. Just because you feel that way doesn't mean that telling me about your feelings will convince me that they are the truth.

[–]theambivalentrooster2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

RPers join for the goal of self improvement to get laid but they stay for the mysoginy.

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Here we go again:

RP: AWALT explained more about women than anything I've seen. This shit works for me.

BP: Pseudoscientific bullshit! You're wrong, it doesn't work and explains nothing.

RP: No, this is my experience and it works for me.

BP: You're stupid, its still wrong.

RP: No, it works for me. If its wrong offer me something else that works.

BP: Misogyny! RP is wrong yet obvious and nothing new and everyone knows it you're an autistic incel and hate women!

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

RP: No, this is my experience and it works for me.

The problem here is that TRPers - for whatever reason - seem to think that their individual experiences are enough to make conclusions on female nature and that if some random bitter blogger says the same thing that it's definite proof.

As I've shown in this thread many of the AWALT traits are actually untypical in women.

Now the on one hand we've got studies that say that these traits aren't as common, and on the other hand we have TRPers who agree that AWALT explains most of their dating experiences.

There are multiple possible explanations here. Either all those studies are lying and a bunch of bitter bloggers know the truth, or TRPers have a limited experience with women, but don't notice this bias.

Now let's consider that TRPers typically used to be betas that placed women on a pedestal and then turned into distant, stoic alphas.

These two factors alone should make you realize that TRP isn't home to typical men and thus their dating experiences also aren't typical.

The beta that they used to be fits very well into the descriptions of anxiously attached men and the alpha they strive to be is as if they stole it from a list of traits of men with a dismissive-avoidant attachment style.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201304/what-makes-man-great-romantic-partner

Anxiously attached people are afraid that they will be left uncared for, and therefore are more likely to be the needy ones in an adult relationship.

People who have an avoidant attachment style express their insecurity by distancing themselves from others and never getting emotionally close to their partners.

In the first place, they found, as they predicted, that the anxiously attached men would be the ambivalent sexists, expressing endorsement of benevolent sexism (i.e. women should be placed on a pedestal). The avoidant men expressed their sexism in overtly hostile ways (i.e. women are manipulative and malevolent).

Tracing the pathways between sexism and attachment style, Hart et al. then concluded that the avoidantly attached men don’t necessarily feel sexist just toward their partners, they have sexist attitudes toward women in general. They get there by having strong beliefs in the superiority of their social group, i.e. men. In other words, it’s nothing personal when they treat their partners as underlings or worse, as opponents. Avoidantly attached men also reject romanticism, feeling pessimistic and cynical about love. Their derisive attitudes toward women and romance means that they will not be the ones to shower their partners with affection and attention.

The situation is more complicated for anxiously attached men. Their beliefs that they can’t live without intimate partners, who are central to their identity, lead them to become the heavy duty romantics in the relationship world. Unfortunately, however, they express their feelings by- you guessed it- putting their women up on that pedestal of benevolent sexism.

To sum it up, Hart and his fellow researchers have shown us that men who feel that they must compensate for being psychologically vulnerable are the ones most likely to adopt “isms” of various types, including sexism.

And the way TRP describes women and how relationships work also sounds very familiar to anxious-preoccupied women.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/compassion-matters/201307/how-your-attachment-style-impacts-your-relationship

For example, the person with a working model of anxious/preoccupied attachment feels that, in order to get close to someone and have your needs met, you need to be with your partner all the time and get reassurance. To support this perception of reality, they choose someone who is isolated and hard to connect with. The person with a working model of dismissive/avoidant attachment has the tendency to be distant, because their model is that the way to get your needs met is to act like you don’t have any. He or she then chooses someone who is more possessive or overly demanding of attention.

In a sense, we set ourselves up by finding partners that confirm our models.

People with a dismissive avoidant attachment have the tendency to emotionally distance themselves from their partner. They may seek isolation and feel “pseudo-independent,” taking on the role of parenting themselves. They often come off as focused on themselves and may be overly attending to their creature comforts.

Pseudo-independence is an illusion, as every human being needs connection. Nevertheless, people with a dismissive avoidant attachment tend to lead more inward lives, both denying the importance of loved ones and detaching easily from them. They are often psychologically defended and have the ability to shut down emotionally. Even in heated or emotional situations, they are able to turn off their feelings and not react. For example, if their partner is distressed and threatens to leave them, they would respond by saying, “I don’t care.”

Then there's also the fact that Macheviallianism isn't as typical in women as TRP claims it is, but research on the dark triad also offers explanations for this

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201605/do-narcissists-feather-flock-together

As you can tell from these words, the theory driving the study was that friends of narcissists are themselves narcissists. In other words, the only people who can stand being friends with narcissists are other narcissists.

As predicted, the findings showed that those who maintain long-term relationships with narcissists were high in narcissism themselves. In interpreting the findings, Maaß et al. concluded that narcissists “like what they have” (p. 378). Narcissists are not only tolerant of narcissism in their friends, they also are not turned off by the selfishness, arrogance, and bossiness that would drive non-narcissists away.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886911003011

Results suggest those who are high on the Dark Triad traits create advantageous environments for short-term mating by having a generally lower set of standards in their mates as shown in Fig. 1. By not being particularly choosey, those who are characterized by high rates of the Dark Triad traits may insure they have ample supply of potential short-term mates. This is consistent with past research suggesting the Dark Triad facilitates a short-term mating strategy for men (Jonason et al., 2009). Alternatively, the lower standards we found in men who are high on the Dark Triad could represent a Plan B strategy where they start with high standards (Plan A strategy) but are willing to lower their standards (Plan B) as an adaptive response to create more options in the mating pool when faced by rejection; rejection that may be a function of their disagreeable nature.

Those high on psychopathy in particular devalued the trait kindness in their long- and short-term mates. Those high on the Dark Triad traits may choose long- and short-term mates in order to create a volatile environment (i.e., drama-rich) to appease their high need for stimulation and impulsivity (Jonason et al., 2010a; Jones & Paulhus, 2010) as shown in Table 1. Alternatively, those high on the Dark Triad may commit character-specific assortment (Buss & Barnes, 1986). The Dark Triad is correlated with all manner of ‘‘antisocial’’ personality traits like aggressiveness (Jonason & Webster, 2010) and criminality (Hare, 1996) and individuals high on the Dark Triad might accept these traits in partners.

So yes AWALT might be true for you and TRP might work for you, but it's still just a self-reinforcing cycle that doesn't offer you any real insight to a broader spectrum of women.

[–]SilentLurker6660 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So yes AWALT might be true for you and TRP might work for you, but it's still just a self-reinforcing cycle that doesn't offer you any real insight to a broader spectrum of women.

And why do we need to know that? Do you need to be a car mechanic to know how to drive?

Narcissists are not only tolerant of narcissism in their friends, they also are not turned off by the selfishness, arrogance, and bossiness that would drive non-narcissists away.

That explains 90% of the TBP crowd.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree that TRP did not use a scientific method to explain their hypotheses,.

That is why I keep telling them to make a scientific research, I am sure most of their points will be proven in a statistically significant environment.

They just need to prove in the scientific method, and publish it with peer approval right? like that you cannot say they are wrong, right? Sure they cannot be published in gender studies because of political reasons, but in psychology and sociology they sure can. they hear to science.

A guy in a year can prove half of these hypotheses, in 5 they probably can do 90%. come on guys, you are the rational ones, do it already!

[–]newName543456went volcel0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Studies are all fine and cool, too bad they don't always translate to real life behaviors.

[–]JustAnotherNorwegian0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not TRP, but I do understand exactly where it comes from. A lot of the bitterness in it comes from denial of some obvious truths TRP recites (but are in no way born out of TRP), that should have been accepted into mainstream culture by now, but are denied by people sometimes demonstrating the truth themselves. It's a lot of hypocrisy out there.

For instance, we pretty much all agree, men are very attracted to T'n'A. The female body is simply the primary focus of our sexuality. That's our sexual superficiality. We're much more focused on the physical dimension of sex than women. Denying it is just silly.

We should all agree, women are very attracted to status. Female sexuality is much more focused on social structures and other's considerations of who your are. That's their sexual superficiality. They're much more focused on the social dimension of sex than men. Denying it is just silly.

This is true when it comes to other things than attraction. We tend to all agree that physical vs social describe our focus in conflict. "Boys will punch each other's brains out, girls will freeze someone out of their group" and blah blah.

So, we generally agree that this is how the genders differs when it comes to conflict, but not when it comes to sex. The moment the rather harsh reality of female sexuality is understood similarly to that of male sexuality, TRP is gone. But the mainstream debate is still dominated by denial. I think the best example of these rationalizations is the Sheryl Sandberg "bad boy" quote, and reactions among women. It just made it clear to a lot of people that there absolutely is a collective agenda of denial here.

It was actually made clearer by this latter part of the quote, than the part it's often attributed to though:

"These men exist and, trust me, over time, nothing is sexier.”

[–]SocialistSamosaSoyboy Cuck0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is old, but the position on the left tends to be, “these preferences exist, but are much more socially determined than RP cares to admit.” Even if trends are cross cultural, it doesn’t make them biological essential truths. There are reasons monarchies come to exist in many early societies that in a sense stem from biology and such, but that doesn’t mean democracy is a denial of biology. The difference between my positive view of democracy and people’s positive view of monarchy in some past or current society is societal influence. We both feel that our views are our own, but that’s just hubris. Just like we can push for democratizing trends we can push for a society where people don’t act like RP caricatures. It shouldn’t be controversial that different things are attractive in different social situations. Even if I found AWALT to be true I wouldn’t want to try to emotionally manipulate women.

[–]chavikux0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My attraction tastes are so observationally fueled, I'm seeking after lesbian stereotypes! These aren't exact Superman analogies either, they're hourglass figures with quirky features!! In one world: pear-shaped hilts, another offering double-jointed appendages. Whatever amalgamation of flavors to establish a synchronous and suspensive cerebral conception. The framework takes its leaning off Al's sovereignty, feeding the ever-strivingly deadened ego, as it just collapses to the Divine designation, supernaturally-presided over by the risen Lamb. Then, I'll also join midst some ascent at an appointed time: to best imitate neighborly compassion. Praise Father; I've carried the torch.

[–]abaxeron✴️Indian Programmer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

most soldiers, terrorists, killers and such are men

You had the audacity to put soldiers and terrorists in the same group and want to have a civil discussion. I'm so done. I'm sure PlaneJane will have a lot to tell you if she reads to this part. Sorry, but if you don't see the difference between soldiers and terrorists, you might be the least-qualified person here to comment on differences between men and women.

But I'll drop some red pills just to fulfill your CMV, and I'll do the same thing you did - lazy-Google one study and pick some quotes from it:

Women have been found to score higher than men on Neuroticism as measured at the Big Five trait level, as well as on most facets of Neuroticism included in a common measure of the Big Five, the NEO-PI-R (Costa et al., 2001). Additionally, women also score higher than men on related measures not designed specifically to measure the Big Five, such as indices of anxiety (Feingold, 1994) and low self-esteem (Kling et al., 1999).

Openness/Intellect reflects imagination, creativity, intellectual curiosity, and appreciation of esthetic experiences..... women have been found to score higher than men on the facets of Esthetics and Feelings (Costa et al., 2001), whereas men tend to score higher on the Ideas facet (Feingold, 1994; Costa et al., 2001).

If you think that your OP constitutes a well-presented argument, then so is this comment.

Have a wonderful day "soldiers-and-terrorists", I'm done here.

[–]DXBrigade-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When it starts with "women are mentally handicapped" you know it's BS written by bitter men. This time of extreme generalisation is never true.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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