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[CMV] Saying that incels are dangerous is like saying that Muslims are dangerous (self.PurplePillDebate)

submitted by celincelin

Another day, another thread about just how dangerous those evil incels are. (I'm not referring to the post itself, rather to some of the comments mostly from BP.)

Yet, BP gets all worked up when somebody says just how dangerous those evil Muslims are. "Only a tiny minority of Muslims are terrorists, bigot!"

Fair enough. But when they themselves talk about incels, selective blindness kicks in, and the simple fact that only a tiny minority of incels kill anybody suddenly goes out of the window. As a result, a bunch of depressed autists saying harsh things on the Internet are demonized as a group. (Which, by the way, only fuels them to say even more harsh things on the Internet.)


[–]meomeowmeoww 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I heard some Muslim incels do join terrorist groups.

[–]concacanca2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Some maybe. A lot of the AQ guys back in the day left widows and children behind though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Source? 😂

[–]TedescheMRA-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Source?

[–]BirdManBrrrr6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Something about military aged men being promised wives and all that for joining ISIS.

This is the best i can find on a half-assed google search: community, glory, wives, etc.

[–]meomeowmeoww 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah.. I don't have a real source it's just something I heard on the grape vine while ago, might not be true, might be.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

yeah and I the grape vine says Herman Goering eats whole bakeries and wears Tu-tus.

[–]meomeowmeoww 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

The grape vine told me you're into scat!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Are you scared of room 237?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ive seen ppl here say that too on several occasions. No idea where it specifically comes from.

[–]wprtogh38 points39 points  (52 children) | Copy Link

Let me try to change your view, in a perhaps unexpected way: saying incels are dangerous is worse than saying Muslims are dangerous.

You see, "incel" differes from Muslim in that the latter category is voluntary, self-identified, and shares at least some ideas and behaviors in common. But incel is by definition involuntary, people are in that category whether they admit it or not, and they need not have anything else in common.

Anyone with a healthy interest in sex who, through no fault of their own, has no chance to engage with a voluntary sexual partner is incel no matter what they call themselves. Whether they like it or not. Women can be incel. Most prisoners are incel until they get released. Gays in countries where their sexual practice is banned, are incel. Victims of genital mutilation and hormonal castration are incel. And so on.

So, saying that incels are dangerous is more like saying poor people are dangerous. Or black people. Or homosexuals. It's a fundamental attribution error.

[–]mgtownigga14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I really hate how people minimize the experiences of incels too. Unless you've gone through it, it's really not cool to act as though their condition is trivial and to label them as entitled. That's real easy to do when you have had plenty of sex and are still getting it.

I cannot imagine the mental damage these people have by the time they reach 30.

[–]wprtogh3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can. It's a wide range of situations. Some people are incel because of mental damage. As in maladaptive behavior patterns from childhood make them unable to start a relationship.

Others have a good upbringing and healthy outlook but wake up one day to say "I'm 30. I have never even been on a date. Let's try it." and proceed to try a range of dating options with no success. "What am I doing wrong?" Eventually they find someone who levels with them and says what the problem is. Maybe they have trimethylaminuria but everyone was too polite to say they stink. Maybe one eye is a half inch lower than the other. Maybe a combination of acne scarring, bottom-percentile height and bad teeth does it. Money can solve a lot of these problems, but incels aren't any wealthier than other people; perhaps less so.

Even so, most of them cope quite well. I haven't met an incel in-person that was angry and resentful; only on the internet. Depression is a more common response. Pop-culture is not to blame for the incel situation, but it does cause harm by piling shame upon them on account of it. And by mapping sexuality to self-worth throughout most media. There is meaning to be found in life without sex, but you wouldn't know it from examining our cultural artifacts.

[–]SmurfESmurferson0 points1 point  (29 children) | Copy Link

You're really comparing people who refuse to hire prostitutes, who go online and spout violent rhetoric, who idealize mass murders ... To victims of anti-gay laws/violence in certain countries, and to victims of horrific violence?

Also, hormonal castration has been proven to not be effective at blocking pedophiles from offending. They just use other methods; so I'm a bit skeptical that they're default incel.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist19 points20 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

You're really comparing people who refuse to hire prostitutes, who go online and spout violent rhetoric, who idealize mass murders ... To victims of anti-gay laws/violence in certain countries, and to victims of horrific violence?

Why would someone who's self esteem is low from not being desired for sex suddenly feel better if a woman reluctantly has sex with him for money with a look of disgust on her face? If anything he'd feel worse because it'd be a graphic reminder embedded in his memory of how unwanted he is. I see prostitution being used as an argument all the time here, but it's about as far from sex as forced sex is.

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

So hire an escort for a GFE, and suspend disbelief.

Incels seem to be able to suspend disbelief for things like video games and sci fi movies (along with the rest of the world, not saying that's an incel-only thing); why can't they do it for a pro?

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's not about just having sex it's about not being able to find a romantic partner.

[–]SmurfESmurferson-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Like I said, the willing suspension of disbelief, even for an hour or two, would probably take the edge off.

Everybody engages in it, I don't see why incels can't as well.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I doesn't engage in it

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Because they can still pick up on women's microexpressions? Most incels aren't even autistic, just low self-esteem and/or unattractive, they can read people just fine. In a video game or a movie they can be a character who doesn't have disgust microexpressions aimed at them, with a chick they pay hundreds of dollars to, they can't, unless they're paying her to fuck another guy in front of them.

[–]SmurfESmurferson3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most people can't pick up on microexpressions - the FBI literally has training for normies to be able to do so.

Unless you're a human lie detector (like that woman who runs the Eyes For Lies blog, which is fascinating), people can't really tell.

[–]InternationalProfile6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most people can't pick up on microexpressions - the FBI literally has training for normies to be able to do so.

I'd bet most people can pick up on microexpressions to the extent that they can tell someone isn't being sincere, especially if they know for a fact that said person isn't sincere (i.e. the prostitute wouldn't be sleeping with them if not for the money). I'd bet FBI training is a lot more oriented towards cases where one doesn't know for a fact what the other party is thinking, and probably involves a lot of "how can I convincingly explain this when I'm testifying" training, too.

Then there's the fact that you're not merely having a face-to-face conversation; you're having sex with the person. Part of the definition of intimacy is that you're opening up to the other person in a very personal way. It gets harder to hide whether you're really into them or not when you're that intimate.

[–]mgtownigga-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

problem is that escorts are expensive and like i stated earlier, the stigma is still there as are the legal issues (although less pronounced with escorts)

[–]SmurfESmurferson2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Who cares about a stigma? Who the hell brags about using pros? That's a "keep it to yourself" activity.

And escorts are legal. What you negotiate with them when you're in the room is up to you.

Relationships are also expensive. I was just at a wedding where the priest was joking during the ceremony that love will make you go broke.

[–]mgtownigga1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I dunno, societal attitudes about things impact A LOT. Would you make this argument about slut shaming, or homophobia? It affects how you view yourself and the behaviors you engage in.

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm really open about my slooty past, while I was single. So no, I don't really think that affected me

[–]gold_shower0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm really open about my slooty past

One who always had plenty to eat each day, will never know the pain of a starving man.

[–]ByronicAsian1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And escorts are legal. What you negotiate with them when you're in the room is up to you.

The cops and local DAs aren't that retarded. If you do get busted by VICE, the excuse of "oh the money is for the time" won't fly if there's implied quid pro quo.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

refuse to hire prostitutes

I do agree with ya there, especially for the ones that go overboard. If they're willing to die and kill people, why not just go get a prostitute? When you're willing/wanting to die, you may as well do whatever you want.

[–]Lorioch3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Prostitution is still illegal in most areas, and not everyone can afford a vacation to Nevada. "Just go do something illegal" is usually terrible advice.

[–]Pope_LuciousSeparating the wheat from the hoes2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Who are the ones creating and enforcing those anti-gay laws?

[–]SmurfESmurferson4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure, Muslim countries. Also, Russia and other Eastern European, as well as African, countries.

In terms of culture, Central and South America are pretty damn homophobic.

[–]wprtogh3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I am saying the category is bigger than just the people who go online spouting violent rhetoric; that the part is not representative of the whole. The same way that black gangbangers aren't representative of all black people. Or gay rapists aren't representative of all gays. Or ISIL terrorists are not representative of all Muslims. Or abortion clinic bombers are not representative of all Christians.

The rhetorical logic behind attacking all these groups is the same. It's called the Fallacy of Composition. Attributing characteristics of a part to the whole. It is the foundation of most of the prejudice we see nowadays.

When I mentioned hormonal castration I had cases like Alan Turing (who by all accounts only got with other adult men) in mind. He was castrated and then killed himself.

[–]SmurfESmurferson4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Not every virgin or lonely person is an incel; hell, many of them don't even know WTF that means.

Self-identified incels are not indicative of every virgin on the planet. But we're not talking about every virgin on the planet, we're talking specifically about the subset known as incels, and their particular brand of toxic beliefs/actions.

Re: hormonal castration, I get your point, but they're still not default incel. I'm hesitant to lump them all in for that reason.

Same way "genital mutilation" doesn't necessarily mean incel, as victims of FGM often still have sex. (They'd probably be VolCel though, as they don't enjoy it)

EDIT: I just saw the "most prisoners are incel" mention - dude, you know that a very legit gripe that MRAs have against feminists is the coopting of the term "rape culture"? Sexual assault is so widespread in prisons that it's horrifying. And that doesn't take into account the numerous men who engage in sexual relations with other men, just to have intimacy.

I don't have numbers, but between the consensual activity, the perpetrators of sexual assaults, and their victims, I'd be hard pressed to believe that most prisoners are incel.

[–]wprtogh1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Okay. I agree that not every virgin or lonely person is incel. Indeed, not everyone who calls themselves incel is involuntarily celibate. Again, it is not a group defined by self-identification; it is defined as an involuntary attribute. So you can claim to have the attribute and be wrong, just as you might claim to be a US citizen and be wrong, or claim to be a victim and be wrong.

So we are talking about people who, for reasons not related to their volition, cannot hope to satisfy their sexual-romantic impulses. Genitalia that have been rendered inoperable is a sufficient condition for this (unless one's orientation is asexual/romantic, which is not everyone). Being locked in a cage that guarantees zero contact with partners that match one's sexual orientation is another sufficient condition. We can quibble about numbers but the fact remains that these are causes of involuntary celibacy for the relevant populations; the exceptions you point out only prove the rule.

On prostitution: having a romance-oriented sexuality rules out prostitution as an answer, for the same reason that being gay rules out heterosexual contact as an answer. Being poor also eliminates that option. Finally, prostitution is also illegal in most places, and law is not a voluntary thing. If I order you to leave your house or else you get beaten, handcuffed and carted away to jail, can you be said to have left your house voluntarily?

[–]SmurfESmurferson2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

When you say "incel," you're not talking about involuntary virgins. You're talking about people who self-identify as incels

[–]wprtogh3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No, I am doing neither. I am not just talking about involuntary virgins nor people who self-identify as 'incel.'

I am talking about the abbreviated term as an attribute. Taking it at face value: "involuntary celibate" means abstaining from marriage, romance and sexual relations for reasons that are not voluntary.

I am talking about people with a desire for sexual-romantic companionship who cannot hope to satisfy it. Whether they call themselves 'incel' or not. Whether they are in fact virgins or not.

Some are virgins. Some call themselves 'incel'. But neither the virgins nor the self-identifiers comprise the whole group. Some of the self-identifiers may in fact be wrong about it.

[–]SmurfESmurferson0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying "you" as in specifically you. I'm using it colloquially. Substitute it as "one."

For better or for worse, incels have self identified themselves into infamy, as a niche group within the larger community of virgins.

That title comes with a host of baggage.

[–]wprtogh2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No they haven't. Three people committed murders and claimed involuntary celibacy as their motive. And then various actors in the media (including Reddit admins) laid blame for the crimes on message boards created for incels. Then it became popular to blame all incels.

It's a textbook example of a composition-fallacy-based meme going viral and creating bigotry.

It went down exactly the same way Muslims got blamed for terrorism. Exactly the same way gays got a reputation as sexual predators in Russia. Exactly the same way feminists got smeared for man-hating. Exactly the same way American Democrats get called communist and Republicans get called Nazi.

It's all so much nonsense. And it's trite to the point of banality. The exact same logical fallacy repeated over and over and over until you don't even realize you're doing it. Habituated unconscious bias.

[–]SmurfESmurferson3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, you're not getting it. It's not 3 rogue members in a bubble.

It's 3 rogue members who took the ideology of those incel communities, and took them to their furthest, natural end. You're kidding yourself if you think the media is blowing this out of proportion.

What they're doing is identifying and reporting on existing, mentally ill trends within those forums. Things such as lookism, beta uprising, etc.

Those incels who are contributing that content, upvoting it, and commenting on it are the ones who are giving the incel community a bad name. The three mass murderers are just the icing on an already poisoned cake.

[–]mgtownigga0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

prostitutes are still stigmatized and illegal in the US and a lot of other countries though. I'm all for legalizing and regulating that industry, and hell, i'm even for government programs to provide a prostitute visit from time to time if the individual is sexually frustrated. Just treat it as a medical bill.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

"Incel", in context, only refers to people who self-identify as "incels", not just anyone who can't get laid or thinks they can't get laid. Basically no one outside the incel community uses the term.

Ignoring the context and usage is just willful misunderstanding.

[–]wprtogh1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you call my usage willful misunderstanding then I can just as easily call your usage humpty-dumptying. How do we figure out which is right? Surely the etymology of the term matters, right?

"Incel" has always had a clear denotative meaning since it was coined in 1993 by a female incel who was later able to recover. Look up Alana's Involuntary Celibacy Project. But be sure to find pre-2016 sources (that's when the media smearing began). Here's a good starting point: http://incelblog.blogspot.com/2011/11/are-you-incel.html

As you can see, right from the start the term was descriptive of a pre-existing thing in the world, not constructive of a social group. Incels have always used the term this way and it's people like you who have distorted it.

[–]Freethetreees1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

You see, "incel" differes from Muslim in that the latter category is voluntary, self-identified, and shares at least some ideas and behaviors in common

NO. "Incel" is a self-identified status. "Virgin", "prisoner", "gay", or "mutilated" is not.

[–]wprtogh7 points8 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Incel means "Involuntary Celibate." It is not a slogan or a faction name, it is just an abbreviation. Can we agree on that much?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, dunno why some are defensive regarding this. It's in the term itself: involuntary celibate. You're involuntary celibate (or "incel") if you are able to get relationships (but would desire one) regardless of your self identification.

[–]wprtogh3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

People get defensive because telling them they're wrong is offensive.

I'm not being snarky or dramatic here; "You're wrong" is by its nature the most basic offensive thing you can say to someone. All the insults out there are just elaborations & exaggerations that encode some version of "you're wrong." You have to overcome that to have any kind of meaningful conversation.

I'm trying...

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

We're defining the term as "people who self-identify as 'incel'" because, while technically correct, calling everyone who hasn't had sex in a while "incel" isn't a super useful application in the same way that calling babies atheist is a technically correct, but not very useful label.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But, incel or involuntary celibate, is not about how you self identify

For example, a "born-again virgin" girl (or "renewed virgin") is still not a virgin, even though they actually do identify as being virgin, right? Same basic idea. If you're involuntary celibate, you're incel. Here, your self concept/how you identify is largely irrelevant.

Now, I understand why some may not like the label because obviously there's some shitty individuals in there. I think that instead of denying basic facts those incels that don't like to label themselves as such should look for the reasons why there are so many messed up individuals in that community and focus on that instead perhaps.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Again, we use the term to talk about those who self-identify as incel because it's more useful. That they self-identify as incel is more important than that they're incel which is why we use a more restrictive definition. The self-identification is the information we care about.

[–]Freethetreees1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Just like nazi technically means "national socialist". We all know it's a faction name accompanied by an ideology.

[–]wprtogh6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Except "National Socialist" was never socialist in the dictionary sense. It was a sloganeered party name from the start.

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

And most incels are actually "volcels"

[–]InternationalProfile5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Voluntary in what sense? That they aren't raping people? That they aren't breaking the law to get only part of what they want (prostitution)? That they aren't hitting on women they have zero attraction to? That they aren't cruising for gay dudes?

[–]Freethetreees-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes

[–]InternationalProfile3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So your argument is that because an incel could go out and rape somoone, they're voluntarily celibate? Shit argument.

[–]wprtogh4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your definition of "voluntary" is unreasonable if you regard sexual orientation and compliance under threat of force (all law is backed up by such a threat) as voluntary.

[–]wprtogh1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right. Well, sort of. I wouldn't say it's "most" - because I don't know that. And you don't either. We haven't got reliable statistics on the question. Involuntary celibacy has received little scientific scrutiny, and what research we have relates indirectly.

But if you're saying what I think, then we agree on something. Not everyone who identifies as incel is incel, because "involuntary celibate" is a descriptive term rather than a self-selected identity or an organization. Just like "wealthy" or "allergic to gluten" are descriptive terms. There are people who regard themselves as rich, or as gluten-intolerant, who are wrong. Just fooling themselves. And the other way around too - lots of rich people identify as middle-class, and many people with gluten sensitivity have no idea.

Nazi on the other hand, in modern usage means everyone who identifies as Nazi. It's a self-selected identity. In the classic 20th century sense, Nazi was a specific organization - NSDAP in Germany. In both cases the term is nominal - a name that people or parties adopt for themselves. "Involuntary celibate" on the other hand, is descriptive.

I suspect that most of the actual incels out there never go on a messageboard and perhaps have never even heard the term. But I doubt that a majority of people who hear about incels and go "That's me!" are faking it. I mean, why would you fake that? They're all ashamed and/or dejected first and foremost. That's like faking depression. Sure it happens, but it doesn't benefit the faker in any way so not very common.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Unexpected, yes.

Although, being a religious retard isn't necessary voluntary, it often requires being brainwashed from a young age.

[–]wprtogh0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I suppose there is a proportion of religious adherents like that, who just can't help it. That's not really what I was getting at though. The thing about religions is they contain and act-out philosophical ideas. So membership in one is more than just a single involuntary attribute.

You can criticize a religion's content, because it is fair to attribute some shared ideas to a religion's adherents. It might not be fair to attribute Sharia law to all Muslims, mind you, but it's certainly fair to attribute admiration for Muhammad. Not all Christians are for outlawing abortions, but they do all believe that Christ was a real person who actually did important things and deserves imitation. Those statements are up for debate.

You can't criticize autistic ideas though. What's an autistic idea? Not every autistic person is going to agree on anything. There is no shared ideology because the group is defined by an involuntary characteristic. Calling ideas autistic is just a manifestatiom of shallow bigotry. Involuntary Celibate is like that.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No one thinks all incels are mass shooters. But being an "incel" is definitely unhealthy and dangerous to their mental health. Not every lonely guy or a virgin is an incel. We all know what an incel is and their viewpoints are. They are obsessed with their sexual insecurities and shortcomings and cope by posting hateful things about women. Devaluing, degrading, dehumanizing women. I see incel lite comments here all the time.

That attitude, that misogyny in general is dangerous to themselves and society as a whole. And once in a while it manifests itself in an extreme outlier case of mass shootings.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How is it dangerous to the society, except very few outliers?

[–]___Morgan__ 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Okay I'll bite. I've not been able to feel orgasms/sexual stimuli around my dick for a few years now. This is completely involuntary, and I can't change it. I've been to tons of doctors and no one identified the issue quite yet.

How is it fair to compare me to Eliot Rodger just cos I'm involuntarily celibate?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

everyone knows "incel" in this case is the community shouting kill all stacies memes, not all virgins or all loners. If it doesn't apply to you, then you're not who I'm discussing.

If you don't know what incel culture is, then you probably wouldn't identify as an incel online. Incel sub reddits do glorify Elliot Rodgers for ones.

[–]Justice4DevilBearWu-Tang Clan2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Apples to Oranges comparison. An incel can be from any part of the world and since human beings are social animals their lack of social skills and introspection make them more susceptible to anti-social or possibly violent behavior (I'm not saying they're criminals, they need help).

When bigots say "Muslims are dangerous" they're generalizing an entire religion of over a billion people when in reality it's the poorest and most war torn muslim countries that produce radical extremists. These extremists, just like some incels, have regressive and violent attitudes towards other people and lack the basic ability to empathize.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you have any proof that lack of social skills leads to violent behavior?

These extremists, just like some incels, have regressive and violent attitudes towards other people and lack the basic ability to empathize.

You are saying that it's apples to oranges comparison, and then you yourself make that very comparison.

[–]Justice4DevilBearWu-Tang Clan1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sorry if I seem to be mincing my words. The distinction I'm trying to make is that violent terrorist attacks committed by foreigners (in this case, from Muslim countries) are done because of complex historical and socioeconomic reasons. The rise of jihadi terrorism is an extremely convoluted and multifaceted subject.

Incels in first world countries (I'm speaking primarily about the US) are at best just misguided and just have poor social skills, or at worst are like that idiot kid in California who went on a stabbing spree. There's a lot of in between, I think a lot of them suffer from depression and other forms of mental illness, but the reason I would call general incel attitudes as potentially violent (I should have said that in my original post instead, my bad) is because of how incels distribute blame for their life. It's not their fault, it's socitie's fault, it's Chad's fault, it's the fault of all women/men, it's their parents fault, it's pop culture, it's [insert demographic], etc... People with no support system or accountability are capable of anything. Same as poor Muslim countries that produce terrorists. Keep in mind though, I think incels need help, they don't deserve to be discriminated against or harmed.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

When bigots say "Muslims are dangerous" they're generalizing an entire religion of over a billion people when in reality it's the poorest and most war torn muslim countries that produce radical extremists.

So, it is okay to view Muslims as dangerous if they also come from poor, war torn Muslim countries?

[–]Justice4DevilBearWu-Tang Clan0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

No I'm merely pointing out WHY it happens. Populations with with higher rates of poverty will produce greater amounts of criminals than populations that have more resources. It's not a genetic/ethnic factor, it's a socioeconomic one. Why do poor urban communities have gangs? Why do poor rural communities have gangs? How did organized crime develop? How did organized terrorist groups develop? Because there are desperate and poor people in the world.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This does not answer the question of where it is okay to apply extra scrutiny.

[–]Justice4DevilBearWu-Tang Clan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If the boogie man type of Muslim terrorist that FOX news tells me to be afraid about is going to come from anywhere, it's going to be from a poor/war torn country. After it will most likely be a male, usually with little to no family/friends, most likely mentally ill, questionable education, etc...

I'm not saying this is a guaranteed check list, merely potential reasons as to why Muslim extremists do what they do. When should we apply scrutiny? In my opinion both the security sector (ex. screening for migrants) and in mental services/education (developing and getting resources they need to be able to function better in society). I'm talking about a very small subset of the population I mentioned. As I said with incels, they need help.

[–]trail220 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

But why can they not empathize? Who do people empathize the most with. People you care abotu . People who care about you.

If no one ever cared abotu you then you will never care about anyone. You are asking people with no one to care abotu someone who never cared about them.

That is probably too much to ask

[–]Justice4DevilBearWu-Tang Clan1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're correct, hence why I think they need help. Access to mental health services, a gym membership, a support group of some kind, ANYTHING. But we generally tend to disregard the mentally ill so :\

[–]SmurfESmurferson8 points9 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Speaking solely for myself, I don't particularly care about Muslims - there are too many to lump them all into a stereotype.

I reserve the right to like/not like them on an individual level.

Same with virgins. They're too plentiful to care about as a whole.

I do find bitter, self described incels who wind up raging online and celebrating Saint Elliot revolting.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 4 points5 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Revolting is irrelevant. Dangerous or not?

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

As that particular subsection of incels self-selects into a group that glorifies mass murderers and the loss of life they cause, I vote for potentially dangerous.

However, as you can't tell your ER from your average internet troll, it's best and safest for outsiders to treat that subsection as all ERs.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Almost everything is "potentially dangerous".

However, as you can't tell you ER from your average internet troll

Yes, I can. My average Internet troll doesn't kill anybody. But maybe I'm wrong, and since the tiniest minority of incels go berserk, AIALT?

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Yes, and until ER and this latest guy actually went on killing sprees, no one new for sure that they were mass murderers.

So, it's best to treat everyone idolizing those guys/espousing those views a wide berth. Better safe than sorry.

ESPECIALLY as a woman.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] -1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Do you realize that chances for being killed by the next ER are effectively zero compared to dying in a car accident? No cars, then -- better safe than sorry?

ESPECIALLY as a woman.

You can enjoy your martyrdom all you want of course, but ER killed more men than women.

[–]SmurfESmurferson5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yep.

That's still not going to change the fact that women are still going to avoid incels (and even non-incels) who radiate that sort of toxic mental instability.

So you can rage all you want to, but until they change and get help, they're not going to leave inceldom.

Also, ER killed more men than women bc the sorority wouldn't open its doors to him. Not for lack of trying.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Also, ER killed more men than women bc the sorority wouldn't open its doors to him. Not for lack of trying.

As far as I know, he wanted to kill the "Chads" as well.

The rest has nothing to do with the discussion. The thread isn't about leaving inceldom.

[–]SmurfESmurferson3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The thread also isn't about why women should not avoid them.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think you're just being difficult now.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

there are too many to lump them all into a stereotype.

They should be able to be lumped in a stereotype in certain ways because if not they aren't following their religion correctly. I'm not saying anything about terrorism, but all Muslims have common practices and they all come together for a common cause. The common cause makes them easy to stereotype despite how many people there are coming to worship.

Same with virgins. They're too plentiful to care about as a whole.

It's not the same because virgins can have a greater variation of beliefs.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill11 points12 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

I don't think incels are particularly dangerous. I just think they embrace a very dysfunctional and immature culture that rejects personal accountability. Which sucks, because they would have a good case for a civil rights movement if they actually bothered to learn how intersectionality works. Ugly people face genuinely unique and oppressive challenges. I'd donate to a credible movement fighting looksism.

I don't think they're actually interested in this, though. It would require a lot of effort, thankless hours, personal investment and willingness to endure the inevitable push-back that always happens when the oppressed start demanding equal rights. These are dudes so sensitive to criticism that mere lack of interest from women is considered bullying. Worse, they seem to feel "because I was bullied, that means IT'S MY TURN NOW", and they go about trying to tear down and shit on as many women as they can. Which doesn't mesh very well with other equal rights movements, lol.

So... they're pretty much harmless. Just petty bottom-feeders that want to be thrown social scraps without understanding how to earn them.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't think incels are particularly dangerous. I just think they embrace a very dysfunctional and immature culture that rejects personal accountability.

I don't think that most actual incels are part of that culture, though.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah? What makes you think this? (I’m not asking combatively, I don’t hate the guys, just find them depressing.)

I base my observation on the fact that their primary advice to one another is “give up”. And there’s no advice too good for them to say “there’s no point, it wouldn’t work anyway.” I’ve known too many people like this IRL. A lot of it sounds like genuine depression, which is EXTREMELY hard to motivate ones self thru... but they also seem opposed to therapy or medication so idk. You can’t make the horse drink. Elliott Roger had a personal life coach and he still couldn’t take the advice to TRY.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Because there are a lot of men out there that aren’t able to find a woman who will have sex with them. I doubt that they are all participating in internet groups that denigrate women because of this, and there are even fewer that would even contemplate violence against women. Most incels quietly go about their life pursuing their hobbies. Some are probably actively trying to improve themselves.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure. I’m specifically describing the incel culture *as it is presented in its online community. Most virgins don’t even know wtf “incel” even means.

However, if there’s large numbers of dudes in the incel community that don’t agree with calling women gross shit like “roastie” and “femoid”, they are doing a poor job differentiating themselves from it. Who we associate with unfortunately informs a lot of what we can conclude about each other. You can tell me “I only go to the Westboro Baptist church for the music” but I’m still probably gonna assume you’re okay with their “God Hates faggots” nonsense.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay. I read “incel” as “a man who wants to have sex but can’t find a woman attracted to him” rather than as “a member of the online incel community.” I consider myself a former incel as, decades ago, I could not find a woman who was attracted to me, even though, as far as I know, the incel community didn’t exist back then.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah, yeah, that makes complete sense. No, I don’t mean all dudes who just haven’t been able to get lucky yet. That’s literally all of us at one point lol

[–]Whackthemoles2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn’t really call those men incels though. ’Incel’ isn’t actually a real word, it’s a term made up by the people who do frequent those Internet forums and believe in all those toxic ideas. Therefore if a man specifically says he’s a incel, I assume he goes on those forums and shares those ideas. If a man says he’s a 30-year-old virgin, I don’t associate associate him with “incels”

[–]WorkchoicesPurple Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just think they embrace a very dysfunctional and immature culture that rejects personal accountability.

Inshallah brother!

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Which sucks, because they would have a good case for a civil rights movement if they actually bothered to learn how intersectionality works. Ugly people face genuinely unique and oppressive challenges. I'd donate to a credible movement fighting looksism.

Apart from the blatant sales pitch (translation: if you just because SJWs your life would become better!), as /u/storrfish has speculated a few days ago (and I tend to agree with him), the biggest problem of incels isn't that they're objectively horrible to look at, but rather of mental/psychological/social nature.

The (former as well as current) forever alone dudes I know? Most of them were in the ballpark of average with decent room for improvement without using surgery, or at least could have gotten to average with improvement.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Edit: /u/storffish, not storrfish.

[–]InsanoVolcanoOld School2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

rejects personal accountability

I find this is true of any group that doesn't get a fair shake. For example, it is theorized that single mothers aren't poor because they have babies, they have babies because they are poor (https://www.nber.org/papers/w17965). Incels become unchivalrous to women because, in their opinion, there's no reason not to treat them like everyone else, or worse.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Single parents (including single fathers), happen for many reasons, including death, divorce, poor planning, stupidity, failed relationships, jail sentences, job availability and yes, there are inevitably men and women who use children to abuse the system. That has nothing to do with the topic.

There is no circumstances in which treating people worse doesn’t make a situation worse. It’s certainly not illegal to be an asshole, but it’s immature and unproductive.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

There is no circumstances in which treating people worse doesn’t make a situation worse.

Incorrect. See: prison, punitive law measures

[–]teaandtalkReddish purple2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Incorrect. See: the debate between punitive and rehabilitative sentencing; the higher reoffending rates after longer sentences; the impact of youth incarceration.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Higher reoffending rates just justifies longer sentences :)

[–]teaandtalkReddish purple1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Only if you would prefer to keep someone in prison forever, especially for a relatively minor crime. I know the prison industry in the US is huge, but I can't say it seems to work very well.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well it would be cheaper to just soylent green the prisoners instead of keeping them there

[–]InsanoVolcanoOld School0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You completely missed my point.

[–]WhatIsTheMeaningHere0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What are they actually going to get from an equal rights movement? Are women going to start having sex with them because they did a muh equal rights thing?

[–]trail220 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats pretty much 99 percent of the people who have causes on reddit.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

“Equal rights” to incels? What does that look like to you?

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Maybe not getting refused a job for being ugly?

I bet it happens.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You want ugliness to be a protected class?

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You want ugliness to be a protected class?

Quite frankly, yes, I do, at least as to things like employment. Less attractive people do systematically worse by every economic measure, primarily due to discrimination against them.

Here in Michigan, state law prohibits employment discrimination based on height and weight, which is a start.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m interested in how you’d prove up such a case. I’d also be interested in reading caselaw on MI’s discrimination laws re: height and weight. Apparently it also covers “genetic information.” Im not sure what that entails.

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure it happens somewhere, yet unemployment is at a generational low and if you don't have a job its because you're either so dysfunctional and shitty as a human you actually can't get a job or you checked out of the job market entirely.

Consider also aspie and/or neckbeardy types as the stereotypical incels- IT departments are full of them; educated, skilled, and decently compensated. Maybe these uggos are losing out compared to an equally skilled good looking person, but they're probably not at all underemployed.

[–]statsfoddernot blue, not red.-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So they are bad for thinking like feminists??

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I just think they embrace a very dysfunctional and immature culture that rejects personal accountability.

I don[t endorse the black pill/incel world view because its frayed and paranoid, and likewise feminism does not embrace personal responsibility. There isn't a feminist anywhere in this world or a male-apologist who doesn't blame men for women's lack of success.

And ushering women into a STEM field is no free ride - those women are not given a thing.

[–]aznphenix4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So you think feminists make zero effort on women figuring out ways they can personally break glass ceilings or be successful at work/ in fields where they're a minority? Or that those efforts are overshadowed by Tumblr feminists?

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I disagree that the two are comparable.

A greater number of Muslims are dangerous than incels. Islam is a much greater threat to the West, society, and people in the West than incels are.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree that organized religious fanatics are of course much more dangerous than some first world Internet virgins, but that's not the point of the thread.

[–]Freethetreees2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Ignoring the fact that there are billions of muslims around the world and only a few thousand self described "incels"...People are raised with and indoctrinated into Islam as children, "incels" on the other hand latch onto their ideology later in life and so are more responsible for what that ideology says.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Also ignoring the fact that the vast majority of incels don't harm anyone, regardless of what their "ideology" says.

[–]Freethetreees3 points4 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

But they DO willingly associate themselves with an ideology that celebrates violence against women, without decrying the violence, hell they even celebrate the perpetrators of the violence! There's no reason "incels" couldn't just call themselves virgins and completely abandon the stupid internet club for dangerous losers.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

None of that make them actually dangerous.

[–]Freethetreees1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It makes them potentially dangerous.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Deep down, we are all potentially dangerous

[–]Freethetreees2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Very true, we all the the capacity to be dangerous, and that's a good thing! But men can inflict more devastating violence with less effort, are more apt to do so thanks to testosterone, and often do so in an indiscriminate way. When women commit violence, it's typically very discriminate.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Everything is "potentially dangerous".

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

But some things and some people hold more potential for danger than others.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Only on that scale, incels are much lower than say texting feminist drivers.

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's a pretty silly argument.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

How come?

[–]Madness202 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Humans are dangerous. True story.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Such problematic sweeping generalization, you specist.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

back maybe 6 years ago when I first heard the term, it was a descriptive term invented by a woman, merely sympathetic to the plight of good people who are unable to find a partner.

at that time I would have called myself an incel, partially tongue in cheek, because I was working in a small town and having NO success finding someone.

It has now progressed to mean something entirely more extreme, to the point that the ex-CEO of Reddit is crusading to seek out and fire all the “incels” in Silicon Valley.

So first you have to define exactly what Incel means, then decide if they’re really a problem. My opinion is this is just another scapegoat class for the dominant culture to mock and berate with no merit, like picking on the outcasts in high school.

And if they are dangerous, acknowledge that society plays its own part in creating them.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It has now progressed to mean something entirely more extreme, to the point that the ex-CEO of Reddit is crusading to seek out and fire all the “incels” in Silicon Valley.

Discrimination at workplace, how very cute.

My opinion is this is just another scapegoat class for the dominant culture to mock and berate with no merit, like picking on the outcasts in high school.

Yes, I agree.

[–]vandaalenRed Pill EC5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

An Incel is not following an inherently fascist ideology. Those two groups cannot be compared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSPvnFDDQHk

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

So? Actually a lot of people aren't keen on Muslims either if anything IRL most average Americans still distrust them. Until recently few people beyond Reddit even knew what an incel was, now nerdy suburban journalists on NPR are talking about it. Incels all sound like they need major therapy.

[–]TedescheMRA9 points10 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

What is your point here and how is it supposed to change the OP’s view?

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

It is not clear what view he wants changed he is bitching about BP.

[–]TedescheMRA6 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I think it’s pretty clear: they’re saying feminists are being hypocritical when they defend Muslims as a group against those who judge all Muslims by the worst examples among them, but then go and judge all incels by the same.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Oh okay well I think that is a fair critique take it up with "The feminists".

[–]TedescheMRA1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

There are plenty of feminists on this sub to take it up with.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Go for it, I am a cultural racist and many Muslim believers come here with anti western values because of the regions they originate from and they want the economic freedom the US offers but do not like the other parts of freedom and some, not all do not assimilate and are not interested in assimilating and if some rando feminists want to fall on the sword for them, cool. I'm not. Like I give a shit about that chick connected to Clinton with the weird husband who sends dick pics.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

cultural racist

Serious or not? Real question.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why would I not be serious? Why would I want more anti western people in North America?

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why, because that's anti-diversity and problematic, you should feel horrible etc.

I meant the term itself, it's as retarded as it gets almost.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's written in a rather bold font up there, if you just believe in yourself, you'll find it.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Heh

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Their subreddit has enough posts encouraging violence and rape that it got banned.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

You do REALIZE that incels in that sub are only a drop in the ocean? It is like me going to ISIS page and concluding /u/mach_like_a_flame must be part of this too!

[–]jax006Red Pill Gives You Wings2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah dude they're ALL DANGEROUS MENTALLY ILL SHUT-INS /s

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

He is pretty conservative by own description.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Conservative, not despotic.

Thank you.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Conservative and Muslim is about the same as despotic, so no difference to me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cool. I'll just sit back thinking of all the conservative Muslims benefiting our society in all the indirect ways you take for granted.

Knowing that they're happily doing their part and are examples to the next generation is all I need.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You do that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, and he only proves a point that you can not judge whole group just by one individual.

[–]SmurfESmurferson1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, he indicated not too long ago that he believes his religion trumps actual law. That's not really a moderate viewpoint

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok. I'm a Muslim 1st and an American 2nd. As a Muslim, we are instructed to actually apply the laws of the country we live in as far as they run with our religion.

I find defending this silly because now I imagine myself campaigning for Sharia Law practised in America or some shit like this. I myself may practise, but that's just my own life.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"No, I have no plans to support ISIS today. I just want to enjoy my day off."

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

How many were harmed because of those posts?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Hard to say. Elliot Rogers never specifically referenced r/Incels, but he definitely spouted the ideology. Regardless, if you think a bunch of frustrated loners with mental health issues talking about rape and murder isn’t dangerous, then you have a warped view on danger.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think that if the vast majority of them don't harm anyone, they're not dangerous. How is it warped?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The vast majority of people in cults don’t harm anybody. They’re still considered dangerous because of the rhetoric

[–]SmurfESmurferson2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He frequented SlutHate, which is a site for particularly bitter lookism incel (now PUAHate)

Source: in skimming that site in his aftermath, it led me to TRP, which led me here

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most people die from diseases. Those are pretty dangerous.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Ever read the koran?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I get your point, but the Koran is a holy text written by one person/a few people. The sub was a discussion going on daily by many, many people. It’s still kind of different.

Religion is dumb, but incedom really is very comparable to a religion in terms of how people use groupthink and denial of science to make conclusions about the way their lives should be lived.

[–]ifelsedowhilelocal cop - cherry top4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Incel refers to anyone who's celibate not by his own choice, not just members of that sub. If you ask me the term has been used in a confusing way on purpose by the MSM to create the perception that all virgins are hateful to women.

[–]apube2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think it's the MSM's fault per se. The only people I've ever seen call themselves incels are the people who frequent such forums. Everyone else is just a virgin. I think there's a meaningful distinction to be made between self-proclaimed incels and simply self-proclaimed virgins. "Incel" connotates some black pill philosophy, "virgin" doesn't have that same baggage. When people discuss incels, they're usually discussing a specific type of virgin and I think the distinction is useful and uses their own language

[–]ifelsedowhilelocal cop - cherry top1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Virgins can be such by their own choice for personal and religious convinctions so you need to use a different word to indicate people who are romantically or sexually challenged. That kind of situation can be conducive to a black philosophy but black pill philosophy is not necessarily leading to violent acts more than religion or other subcultures.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The N word was orgjnally just a synonym for “fool”. By the strictest definitions, you could try to argue that it’s okay to say it because it technically means “fool”, but culture and usage have given it a different meaning.

The same really applies to the term “incel”. There’s nothing wrong with being a male virgin. There’s nothing wrong with being sad about loneliness. There is something wrong about living life as a victim instead of taking matters into your own hands. Incels don’t refer to lonely men. The term incel applies to a specific category of lonely men.

[–]El_Tigrex-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Incels got banned because it was popular, talk of violence on incels was talked about on an abstract and consequential societal level, not in the form of encouraging violence.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

r/jokes is popular, and it hasn’t been banned.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (36 children) | Copy Link

Most Muslims don't sit around and talk about how much they hate Christians or Americans the way incels talk about their hate for women and actively denote them as "other".

[–]jax006Red Pill Gives You Wings9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Most incels don't do that. They go through life being shy and lonely and you never interact with them or know they're incel.

The way you think "most" of them do is like me watching Muslims decapitate aid workers in Orange jumpsuits and thinking "most" Muslims do that.

Thus, the point of this post.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's why I'm inclined to agree with u/belletaco , that they're more like isis. Most of the people you're referring to are just virgins - not self identifying incels - the same way that most Muslims are just Muslims, not isis or extremist.

[–]jax006Red Pill Gives You Wings1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Idk I get confused these days what "incel" means I had thought it was "involuntarily celibate" but apparently you only qualify as an incel if you're an active contributing memeber of a cringy internet echo chamber.. so in that sense of the definition, I guess I'd agree that yes they're like Isis.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's how I define them. As the subset that has negative attitudes about and dehumanizes women. Not virgins just minding their own business.

[–]jax006Red Pill Gives You Wings0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I had defined them as people who were involuntarily celibate as the name suggests but I see the more objective definition evaporates just like when Trps talk about "feminism" and what it is or isn't defined as.

[–]Eastuss 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Women actively denote incels as "other" and even though there's no explicit hate, women still express the idea that incels should be socially dead. :/ Same shit, just not as explicit.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

No most women do not think about incels which the incels translate into explicit hate.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Most people do not think of other people at all. Why would sexless men be any different?

“You will become way less concerned with what other people think of you when you realize how seldom they do.”

-David Foster Wallace

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think the problem with the disinterest means no casual sex so that irks them and maybe it feels the same as exclusion.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Which just goes straight back to the root of the problem:

They think they're entitled to sex.

[–]InsanoVolcanoOld School3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think incels can understand that they are not entitled to sex and yet still be angry or sad that they don't get it.

[–]Eastuss 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Sure women do not think about incels once they've ostracised them.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

They do not actively ostracism them they are indifferent.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Some will be indifferent, some will be active in the social exclusion.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could be most are indifferent.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Incels ostracize themselves.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I'll keep that in mind everytime I remember that 12 yo kid 20cm taller than me punching me and making sure every other kid hated me. :/

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Okay but if you want to play childhood trauma oppression Olympics that is an entirely different thread.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you accept this is possible then?

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

What is possible?

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I used my life experience as an example of how such incel ideology can emerge in people.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

"Not as explicit" as in no one has said that to you and you use your imagination to fill in the gaps of social interactions regardless of what the reality of the situation was.

[–]Eastuss 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not my imagination. Example

People/women/feminism/... keep on complaining about men making efforts to find partner, keep shaming men who are in the process of learning or who realises their life is difficult, keep pushing ideas to control men and to make it more difficult for them.

While at the same time never providing solutions for the unfortunates ones except being in a status of social banishment.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

And yet, any time a "femoid" or a "normie" tries to offer advice on braincels they just get abuse and hate in return. Most incels don't listen to advice coming from women, they write the woman off as a "stupid, roast beef cunt".

[–]Eastuss 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

You can see what those advices are in the memes "just take a shower" "stop hating women" "read books writen by women" or whatever superficial advices that they heard all their life and never worked.

Last time I saw a woman trying to give advice and used her couple as an example of men not conventionally attractive who could get a girlfriend. His boyfriend was tall and was handsome, he was just too juvenile. OFC she's never going to be taken seriously, OFC it's going to reinforce the idea that women's standards are too high.

Someone who was struggling and eventually find its way out can probably do better at teaching them, but it's true that they're going to be hostile if you start by denying their struggles and problems. Keep in mind that even though they're hateful online and seem like not open, in real life you don't really know. I was like that, my friends were/are like that.

In artificial intelligence, if you try to teach an artificial intelligence only negative results, it'll learn to say "false" no matter what, training it back to correctness takes a lot more times and sometimes it's not even possible because it'll be stuck forever. Human brain is more complex and more flexible, but it doesn't surprise me that it's more difficult to turn an incel into a normal civilians than avoiding to turn a child into an incel, and feminism is currently teaching young boys to hate their gender and themselves...

[–]frogsgoribbit7375 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay, so is my advice more credible because my husband is short (5'6), squat (fat), has acne all over the place and is literally covered in hair, and by all accounts under my league. Because that's a very accurate description of him. Guess what? I still find him very attractive because I love him. That simple. I met him online through a friend and got to know him years before we ever met in real life.

My main issue with incel is their opinion of women. The fact that they think literally all women could get laid at any time without trying is ridiculous. Yeah, that may be true if she severely dropped her standards. Well, guess what? The same thing would happen to men if they also severely dropped their standards.

The fact that incel are mostly in their teens and their early 20s is the most telling. No one cares that they are virgins, but they seem to think it's the end of the world. I was a virgin until I was in college and so was my first real boyfriend. It's not a big deal. In fact, it's perfectly average.

And don't even get me started on the stupid ads statement that is "feminism is teaching men to hate themselves." That's just false. Radical feminist may hate men, but the majority if us don't. We have husband's and sons and fathers and brothers and we want men to be treated with respect. We want men to be treated better by the courts, to have more say in their children's lives, to have paternity leave, to be able to talk about their feelings without being shunned. But that's never the narrative that people like to talk about here. It's always only "kill all men" which is a tiny minority.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

so is my advice more credible

Now I'm curious to see your husband. But I think your husband would be better placed to talk about it than you.

I could fit the description of your husband. I struggled a lot and found a way. And the way I explain it make a lot more sense to incel friends than what other people tell them, because I received the same advices, struggled, and found what was wrong with these advices, and maybe your hubby too.

The fact that they think literally all women could get laid at any time without trying is ridiculous.

But it's true... even my IRL female friends who know nothing about TRP/TBP or pills know that.

The same thing would happen to men if they also severely dropped their standards.

And that's not true... I tried. :p Even if that's true, that wouldn't be without lot of efforts.

No one cares that they are virgins, but they seem to think it's the end of the world.

When I was 14 I wasn't just a virgin I was an ostracised looser. And the problem with that is that accumulated lateness aren't recovered. People who at 14 aren't starting to get along women won't get along women at 20, it's a snowballing problem, you're supposed to have a normal social life and if you don't then there are consequences later.

We have husband's and sons and fathers and brothers and we want men to be treated with respect.

That respect is conditional, they'll treat men with respect if they behave like providing stoic men who don't have sexual and personal incentives.

The hate of men is kinda ambient and not that much explicit, but lot of things teach you early that male sexuality and male incentives are just wrong, what do you think is happening when your little boy who your told that men who think a lot about sex are to be hated, and then he grow to be exactly that. Maybe you're not like that, but I was raised like that, not just my mother, but all women.

I agree that LibFems are better on these aspects than radfems, but it's still there, MeToo isn't a radfem thing, but eventually it teaches boys that majority of the time they'll be creepy no matter how politically correct they behave. At least if I was a kid right now that's how I'll interpret it, and I'll instantly turn into a niceguy and people would still shame me if I ever get vocal about my approaches being permanently unsuccessful, and I'll be lectured about how I am entitled and how I consider women as a price, while I was just trying to flirt and do normal human things in a way women told me was correct.

to be able to talk about their feelings without being shunned

Then you should accept incel's feelings? Because that's what it is, right here.

LibFem fights for men to be able to display their feelings like women, not like men. I know it's not legitimate to say that people should be listened even though they are being insulting, but it's what they're doing, they're being vocal about their frustrations, their feelings, and the contradictions they live and puzzles them. It's being seen too late and it's rejected. Niceguys are another form of it, less hateful, still shunned. Niceguys marginalisation is so strong now that even being sad of being rejected is considered as objectifying women.

I understand you feeling that only the bad examples are showed. There are lot of things I think are right with feminism, especially in my country they have made more popular menstrual cups and female condoms, and have brought more paternity leaves. I won't deny that at all.

[–]AutismoCircusNo pills3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Most advice that gets thrown around is shit like "take a shower" or "get a job" like these were things we don't do. Imagine telling a maimed person to "just learn to walk again". It is useless advice because literally everyone knows it already.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I’ve said general things like “have you tried joining a social group like based upon a hobby so you can meet like-minded people IRL,” “have you sought therapy,” “do you work out/diet.”

Those seem like decent places to start when you don’t know much about a person’s specific circumstances which are holding them back. They seem to really reject the idea of therapy and I’m not sure why. A lot of them seem very depressed or as if they suffer from social anxiety.

[–]AutismoCircusNo pills-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

A lot of psychologists are poor at their job. They mostly do it for the paycheck

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh come on they could at least give it a shot.

[–]AutismoCircusNo pills0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

For clarification: I am not saying that incels shouldn't go to the psych but that they probably have been and that it wasn't someone who could deal with them.

[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most Muslims don't sit around and talk about how much they hate Christians or Americans the way incels talk about their hate for women and actively denote them as "other".

I believe their issue is with the jews.

[–]belletaco2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. It honestly makes more sense to compare incels to isis than it does Muslims as a whole. Yes, both are dumb comparisons, but that’s basically my point.

[–]Less_Salt2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Muslims are dangerous. Incels are dangerous. Different groups will have different advocates.

[–]TheWretchedMass 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I agree, these old fat feminist women are dangerous women and they're bitter. Doing anything for attention including shaming men for going after younger false rape and sexual harassment charges and the list goes on.

[–]PPD-AngelIncel Ban Count: 9[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

All top level comments must challenge the OP's view. Take it to the AutoModerator.

[–]sabadr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Both of them are dangerous . Islam is an ideology and its a dangerous one. Inceldom isnt your choice but you can decide to identify as an incel or not or post some shit on that subreddit

[–]mgtownigga0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, that's the leftist mindset though. Their ideology is rife with contradictions.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's comparing Apples to Oranges really. Incels, are in the majority, teenagers in grownup bodies. Often frail, short, gamer dorks that couldn't hurt a fly. Autists with shitty attitudes and opinions they claim as "facts". They're the Fox News of people. Occasionally you'll run across one that took a month of BJJ and owns a gun. So he thinks he's a tough guy. But as a group, they aren't dangerous. They're cowards.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Muslims are dangerous tho.

[–]quicklogaccountI claim to cause RPs to feel blue0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But it is not the same. Most religions, but middle eastern ones specially, offer excuses for those who do nasty shit to propagate their faith. Incels' "nasty shit" is keyboard warfare.
For this reason, without giving a shit about whether Muslims are or are not any worse than any other religion, and currently it is hard to argue that they are not, you already can't compare them. You're comparing children brandishing plastic swords and professing their hatred for the man of the ice cream that didn't stop for them, with some folks carrying guns. Bear in mind that the first bit of the caricature might actually be enlarging incels and the second is reducing "radicals" to their LEAST dangerous iteration.

[–]mistresswhat0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you replaced "Muslims" with "people who spend a lot of time online discussing their pro-ISIS views" then yes, it would be a pretty close equivalency!

It takes more than not getting laid to be an incel -- it also takes being a terrible person. It's normal to be frustrated and depressed about a lack of sex or romance, but you need to be a pretty fucked up person to feel comfortable reading, much less participating, in that level of virulent misogyny. Most incels would probably be domestic abusers or date rapists if they were socially adept enough to manage it. I don't think most incels are going to become terrorists -- but I do think they're at very high risk for committing other, less headline-grabbing acts of violence.

This is why I literally don't care about incels. Incels not having relationships with women = less women experiencing abuse.

[–]rogert20 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sociology tells us that group membership depends critically on the way a person identifies. That is: someone may be involuntarily celibate, but they must also expressly consider themselves an "Incel" to qualify.

I'd say that mainstream peeps are justified in viewing someone as more potentially dangerous who claims membership in an aggressively misogynist subculture. Even if the person in question would never harm a fly. In a very real sense, someone who says they are Incel has opted into a label that properly belongs to a toxic subculture.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

muslims are dangerous

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I actually believe I go out of my way to appear non-threating to my own detriment. A man has to have a bit of an edge to get the ladies.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

muslims are dangerous

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia-2 points-1 points  (71 children) | Copy Link

These aren't analogous.

Most Muslims don't like Islamic terrorists and vocally distance themselves from them.

Incels on the other hand love mass murderers and openly celebrate Saint Elliots day.

"Muslims are dangerous because they are brown" isn't comparable to "incels are dangerous because they constantly talk about how amazing it is if women get killed"

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Muslims are dangerous because they are brown"

That's a nice disingenous argument you got there. Are you sure that's why people say they are dangerous? Nothing to do with the centuries old conflicts we've had in Europe with them? The influence of religion in their lives and how those beliefs are mostly incompatible with the Western world? Not to mention the fact that many muslims are not "brown". See: Chechnyans, Bosnians.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Muslims are dangerous because they are brown

No, according to the logic you're trying to strawman, they are dangerous because of their religion, not their ethnicity.

incels are dangerous because they constantly talk about how amazing it is if women get killed

Yes, they say harsh things on the Internet, so extremely dangerous.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Incels on the other hand love mass murderers and openly celebrate Saint Elliots day.

What percentage of incels actually glorify him though? What if it was only like 5%?

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia9 points10 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

The subreddit used to have pictures of him as the banner.

I don't care how many actually glorify him. If you associate yourself with a subreddit that does glorify him don't be surprised if people assume that your opinion is in line with the group you associate yourself with.

I also don't care how many KKK members aren't racists but only wear the robes because they are comfy. By associating themselves with the KKK they also associate themselves with the racism.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Aha, "I don't care how many actually glorify Jihad, if you associate yourself with Islam" yada yada.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Not the same in the slightest.

The non-extremist Muslims actively condemn the extremists.

Go ahead and try to make a post actively condeming Elliot Rodger. Lemme know how that goes.

[–]SkookumTreeWe are DONE with "cope"0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Braincels does this. Although they are one cut above incels for vitriol.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

The non-extremist Muslims actively condemn the extremists.

And if some non-extremist Muslim doesn't actively condemn extremists, is he an extremist all of a sudden?

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No. Just your average disinterested person.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

That means a KKK member who isn't a racist is just average disinterested person, right?

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What? What a ridiculous comparison. You're really reaching.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not mine, look above.

[–]DrippyskippyMonk-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

We are going to try this again and hope that I don't get censored for being right.

Using your logic about KKK members, we can only assume then that all feminists hate men. How would you respond to that? If you disagree I proved that your own logic is fallacious. If you agree that means you hate yourself.

If it is the latter then my advice would be to seek therapy. Giving advice is now allowed on PPD.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

No because there are various waves of feminism that do call each other out.

The KKK is united in their beliefs about race, but liberal feminists distanced themselves from radical feminists.

[–]DrippyskippyMonk0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sounds a lot like you're changing your "guilty by association" argument into something different because of biases.

I think what is happening here is that you posses certain positive and negative biases towards certain groups (I think most people do) and thus believe that it is fine to assume that all KKK members are racist, but it isn't fine to assume that all current 3rd/4th wave feminists are man haters. This is what I believe is happening with your incel argument as well. You view certain groups in a negative light and therefore make negative assumptions about everyone in those groups. Where as you being a feminist, you hold feminism in a positive light and therefore can't comprehend the logic that you use against groups that you dislike and compare it to groups that you like.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the KKK or incels as I am not a fan of either group, however what I do find interesting is how people can convince themselves that certain assumptions can be made for certain groups, but not for others. As I said, it simple bias and mental gymnastics.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

but liberal feminists distanced themselves from radical feminists.

Of course, everyone needs to have an alibi.

Its why the republican party still calls itself the party of Lincoln.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No because there are various waves of feminism that do call each other out.

Bullshit claim.

liberal feminists distanced themselves from radical feminists

Another bullshit claim.

[–]Superfluous97Student of Critical Thinking0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The technical term you are looking for is "homogenous." For example; I give you a cup of milk and when you taste it, you say it's spoiled. I then say, "you only tasted one cup—you need to drink a lot more cups of milk before coming to that conclusion.

In this example, milk is "homogenous" meaning, that a small sample is enough to come to a logical conclusion.

To piggyback on your counter-argument, the KKK cult is a lot more homogenous than feminists. This means that a small sample of KKK members allows us to come with whatever conclusion we come to.

Anyway, I don't particularly care for the topic—just wanted to point out that out.

[–]PuleaSpataru69|||9 points10 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I check the incel subreddit and forum a few times a day. There are like 5 out of 1000 who say they understand Elliot. But none say they would do what he did. Understanding isnt celebrating. I understand incels and the blackpill is true, that doesnt mean I celebrate them.

And from all the male virgins of the world only a tiny percentage are on these forums. And even a smaller percentage "support" Elliot.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia12 points13 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Understanding isnt celebrating

Using pictures of Elliot Rodgers presented as a saint as a subreddit banner and celebrating Saint Elliots Day is celebrating him.

And from all the male virgins of the world only a tiny percentage are on these forums.

Most virgins aren't associating themselves with incel boards though.

They are just virgins.

[–]DumbledoresFerrari0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Using pictures of Elliot Rodgers presented as a saint as a subreddit banner and celebrating Saint Elliots Day is celebrating him.

That's called a joke

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you surprised that people mistake you for being dangerous if celebrating mass murderers is what you consider to be a joke?

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think some of them are actually joking and some of them are not. It is almost impossible to tell at this point. This is similar to those people who post Nazi imagery in that sense.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Imagine if some feminist sub had a banner with some woman who chopped off her husband’s dick. “Can’t you tell it’s just a joke”?

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.

-Kurt Vonnegut, "Mother Night" (which is literally about a guy "pretending" to be a Nazi)

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I prefer the comic version

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (35 children) | Copy Link

Incels on the other hand love mass murderers and openly celebrate Saint Elliots day.

Once again. You put all of the edgy incels in one group and assign them a description. Typical intellectual lazyness.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia7 points8 points  (34 children) | Copy Link

You put all of the edgy incels in one group and assign them a description.

They put themselves in this group by associating themselves with that group.

It's like "Oh no you can't call all KKK members racist. Some are just in it for the cool robes". Why would anyone who's not a racist even associate themselves with the KKK if they aren't at least okay with the racism?

Similarly if associate yourself with a subreddit where there regularly are threads about how amazing Elliot Rodgers is don't be surprised if people think that you agree with the stance of that subreddit.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

They put themselves in this group by associating themselves with that group.

just like muslims? Hmm..

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia5 points6 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Muslims distance themselves from radical islamists.

Incels use mass murderers as their subreddit banner.

Can you really not tell the difference?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You call me a murderer? You lump a few edgy incels into a whole worlds population of incels and call them murderers, it is EXACTLY the same as if I called any muslim a potential terrorist. You are full of yourself.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you don’t want the extremely bitter incels who celebrate incel mass murderers and who say violent things online to be called “incels” what would you like them to be called? They got called that because that’s what they called themselves. How about the “extremist incels”?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hm, then call them extremists incels then, like we call... extremist muslims?

[–]Taipanshimshonhere for the downvotes6 points7 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Muslims do that ?

So you’re saying that the millions and millions of non violent Jew and American appreciating Muslims can’t do a thing about the “ Tiny minority” of Muslims who blow up women and children in Israel and abroad and complain about being lumped in that category while a bunch of random people on the internet pose a threat and are a homogenous group ?

Clearly dude. Clearly.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

lol @ you not understanding how terrorism and non-unilateral warfare works.

We have the largest military in the world, and we still can't find all of these guys.

[–]Taipanshimshonhere for the downvotes2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Lol@you not understanding the point. Also - which Arab or Muslim countries are actively involved in military actions against terrorist groups?

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Is the Syrian government still not trying to blow up some folks?

[–]Taipanshimshonhere for the downvotes0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

There is one ? Hmmm

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because US supports it.

[–]spookgangbanger 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-topline1.pdf

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

Also: A belief that mass murder is justified does not follow from the black pill, whereas violence in the name of Allah has both textual support and plenty of historical precedent in Islam. Fundamentalism and extremism are not merely latent potentials in Islam, but quite manifest realities of dogma and practice.

Moreover, incels are at the fringes of society - living in self-opprobrium and self-banishment, with the rare psycho lashing out - whereas entire nations are founded on Islamic theocracy.

You make an absurd analogy.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Game, set and match.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Seriously there is no point in arguing with BiggerD. He will never ever ever ever EVER admit he is wrong. Even when evidence is showed time after time, just wait for his response and you will see how obviously intellectual dishonest he is. Every single time.

2+2 equal 4

Ah.. no, I think that 2 is subjective but another 2 is objective so they both can not be equal to 4.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, he didn't even reply to my post above. I have a small list of people I don't bother replying to because I know that they all disappear as soon as things don't go their way.

[–]DrippyskippyMonk1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I enjoy it though. Always interesting to see how illogical he is going to be to wurm his way out of something when you have him cornered with logic and reason.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nah, those people get boring quickly. Jamjam did not respond when cornered, BiggerD did not respond when cornered. I'm done with those people. Just no point arguing with a wall.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Include Australian soccer mom(s) in that list and it's very similar to my own list.

[–]phoenixgoldfirebanned from twox1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

It's like "Oh no you can't call all feminists sexist. Some are just in it for the pussy hats". Why would anyone who's not a misandrist even associate themselves with feminism if they aren't at least okay with the misandry?

Same post, different context

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Third wavers denounced second wavers. Liberal feminists denounce radicals and radicals are vocally about not liking liberals. There have been the feminist porn wars, etc.

These are various groups that distance themselves from those that they disagree with.

Incels don't distance themselves from mass murderers. They use them as their subreddit banner and celebrate them.

[–]ifelsedowhilelocal cop - cherry top2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They never denounced the large use of bogus stats and figures like the pay gap or 1 in 5 women have been raped. That kind of propaganda is designed to create divisions between the genders and hostility towards men.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

the pay gap

The explanations for the gap I've got from feminists are basically the same ones that the manosphere uses to debunk it.

I always feel like TRP and such only debunk a straw-wage-gap.

or 1 in 5 women have been raped.

Which is a strawman because "1 in 5 will become the victims of sexual assault or rape" isn't the same as "1 in 5 get raped".

They don't have to debunk it. You just have to read it without applying the most hyperbolic filter.

[–]TedescheMRA1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What exposure do you have into incel circles that informs this view of them?

The divisions you cite among feminists are known mainly just to feminists, because they’re internal disagreements within the movement that do not get much play outside of it. In other words, while TERFs disagree with most other feminists about trans rights, you don’t see many of them expressing those views in major media shows/publications, and there are no influential TERF organizations lobbying against initiatives to give trans people rights.

I don’t have a link for you, unfortunately, but I saw a former mod of the old incel sub post once about the reasons he quit, and he described an influx of new users who were mainly just misogynists. Originally, the sub was about incels having a place to vent and support each other, but it became a haven for misogynists, and now that’s what the term is associated with in most people’s minds. Really, there are likely plenty of incels who aren’t misogynists, and they have distanced themselves from those that are, probably even to the point of abandoning the label due to how tarnished it has become.

Your criticisms reflect an in-group/out-group bias that judges feminists in shades of grey, while judging incels in black and white.

[–]couldbemage-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Bullshit. Do I really need to find a post where an incel essays mass murder is wrong? Because we both know that exists.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So post it.

[–]Drippyskippy 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

They put themselves in this group by associating themselves with that group.

Based on this I can assume that because you're a feminist that you hate all men and want to reduce the world's population of all men to 10% since a feminist said that before.

Since Terf's are feminists, I can assume that you also hate transgender people.

Since you're a feminist, you must also enjoy it when men get falsely accused of rape and their entire life is destroyed due to it. Considering I've seen some feminists claim that rape convictions are so rare that when men get accused they should all face consequences regardless of guilt.

I think you need to start doing some thinking before you make posts like this. It makes you not look very good, especially considering you somehow became a mod of this sub. Making assumptions that everyone that labels themselves a certain way are all the same is incredibly fallacious.

[–]PPD-AngelIncel Ban Count: 9[M] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Be civil

[–]DrippyskippyMonk0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

So using a mods own failed logic against them isn't civil. When I have more time I'll mans plain to you how debates work. I had him cornered using his own accusation and you censored me when I was about to win yet another argument.

[–]PPD-AngelIncel Ban Count: 9[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Does not matter if it is a moderator or a user, you are being told to be civil with others if you want to participate. If you want to make an appeal, go to the modmail, if you want to make a spectacle out of it find another platform.

[–]couldbemage4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You're exactly what the OP is talking about. There are absolutely way more Muslims that celebrate terrorism than there are incels that celebrate saint Elliott's day.

And then you make it about race. It's funny that Muslim apologists think Muslims are brown people, while the people that have a problem with that religion are fully aware that huge numbers of Muslims are white, black, and Asian.

I don't like xtian extremists either, nor Jewish extremists. But xtians and Jews are way less likely to give a fuck about their nominal religion. And most xtian violence is motivated by secular reasons. Which doesn't make it good, but it does mean that the cause isn't religion.

But you know what I have personally witnessed? Here, on the Left coast of America. A teenage boy, white, that I knew via a nerdy larping group. This kid grew up in the US. And he told me that Jews were evil and the world would be better off without them. That's your moderate Western Muslim right there.

It's not racism. Palestinians and Israelis are the same race. It's religion, not race. And religion is a choice. I don't need to respect your choice to follow a toxic religion any more than I need to respect your choice to be racist.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are absolutely way more Muslims that celebrate terrorism than there are incels that celebrate saint Elliott's day.

Well no shit dude. There are a billion Muslims. Compare that with a tiny group of limp dicks.

[–]concacanca1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Most Muslims will decry actual acts of terrorism and then turn around and agree with statements that suggest terrorism is a valid response to certain cultural aggravations.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Muslims are dangerous because they are brown"

Surely you realize the claim is not that

[–]LeJacquelopeHaving a son is child abuse0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are a lot of incels who don't participate in that insanty... and there are also (hard as it is for me to believe) women incels... such as the former WOMAN incel who coined the term in a forum of her own.

So yeah, factually your assertions are wrong.

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Most Muslims don't like Islamic terrorists and vocally distance themselves from them.

Maybe 2nd generation, integrated muslims in the US.

Not really the experience in the UK

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Do you have any source that's not an evidently fake news page?

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Google it and you’ll find plenty

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

why waste all those pixels, just point out that men are dangerous. saves time

[–]Freethetreees2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

This. Men are inherently dangerous, ideologies just give them to push to unleash their inner monsters.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

“Women are inherently hyperhamous” — misogyny.

“Men are inherently dangerous” — all good.

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Being hypergamous is a good thing :) no misogyny. Criticizing hypergamy is misogynistic, though, because it's basically saying women's fundamental instincts are bad.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yet you are saying that men's fundamental instincts are bad, that's misandrist by your own logic.

[–]Freethetreees0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am not. Violence and aggression channeled and directed in a healthy way is a good thing.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

/u/celincelin

Yet, BP gets all worked up when somebody says just how dangerous those evil Muslims are. "Only a tiny minority of Muslims are terrorists, bigot!"

SJWs are hypocrites extraordinaire who are neck-deep in ideology but have no clue whatsoever about most subjects, and the way they perceive Muslims is proof of this.

Only someone who is either functionally retarded or completely in denial could complain about the patriarchy of straight cismen, racism, antisemitism, rape culture, toxic masculinity, jerk jocks, slut shaming, enforced traditional gender roles, double standard that don't work in women's favor, but then be willing to take every single bullet there is for Islam.

What you're criticizing here has more to do with how they handle the topic of Islam and little to do with incels.

[–]celincelinNeeds to be taught not to rape[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, that hypocrisy coupled with high horsed ignorance gets me for real.

Although, this thread is still not about Islam.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's why I put it here.

But as I said, what you are complaining about is more about feminist perception of Islam because intersectionalism.

The default mode of feminism is to actively look for things to be pissed off about when it comes to men, which includes complaining about guys women don't value highly anyway (if women valued them enough, they wouldn't be romantically unsuccessful).

However, intersectionalism as a tool circumvents that logic. Hence the inconsistency.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I legitimately LOLd.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Really? I wake up to this?

Nope.

[–]carefreevermillionLook at me. I'm the Chad now.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You know it's funny you say that because if over 50% of the population is Muslim and if 50% of the male population was incel there would be extreme outbreaks of violence. It's almost like they're directly comparable.

[–]newName543456went volcel0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No no no.

Saying "muslims are dangerous" is racism, xenophobia, islamophobia and hate speech.

Saying "incels is dangerous" is standing up to patriarchy.

/s

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

OP, I wish all the best for you for this thread. It shows cognitive dissonance in some SJW on PPD and we are able to read it and see with our own eyes their stupid cop outs "na-ah it is not the same!".

That's why I think SJW and their ilk is the root of many problems.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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