TheRedArchive

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I know some people will be wary about the use of the phrase "cope" and think this is going to be an "incel thread" but it isn't. I am not an incel, in spite of my sympathy for incels. I concede that I do think there are many aspects of "black pill"/"lookist" theory (which I regard ultimately as a subset or spinoff of Red Pill theory) which are correct, however. Yes, I think women are just as shallow/superficial as men; women want hot dudes.

A "cope" refers to a belief which is gratifying to hold, but not true. Its a self-therapeutic delusion produced by motivated reasoning. A "cope" is a lie which is believed in because it is nicer to believe in it than to accept the actual truth.

I believe a certain argument found amongst some Red Pillers is a cope. This argument is as follows:

  1. Women who sleep around when younger ultimately are dissatisfied when they decide to settle down with a reliable-provider-who-isn't-sexy. This is because they have been 'alpha-widowed,' their ability to pair-bond with a man has been damaged by their college sluttiness, they are perpetually damaged goods, their vagina has been 'used up' by Chad, etcetera.
  2. As a consequence of this, women would in fact be happier under traditionalism because if they are socially shamed away from riding the cock carousel when younger, they'll have lower standards and thus Beta Bob will appear sexy to them. They will thus have a happy life when they commit to Beta Bob, but only if she doesn't get pounded by Chad beforehand.
  3. Traditionalism therefore is utility-maximizing for both women and the majority of men, and only Chads lose out, therefore it is a social optimum and all utilitarians should support it.

This is a cope. I propose that what it really works out to is a rationalization intended to avoid the fact that most marriages under traditionalism were not happy, loving, romantic and satisfying, but rather entered into for social acceptability reasons as prudent decisions between people who often did not experience romantic love for each other. Ergo, a return to traditionalism is not utility maximizing; it would reduce the utility of a very large number of women and a substantial number of non-Chad men. Traditionalism means most people will be in loveless marriages. If your goal is satisfying romantic love, traditionalism won't give it to you. Traditionalism only worked when people didn't believe marriage was about love (which I am going to define, for purposes of this argument, as "affection + lust"), when they gave up love in favor of prudence. Traditionalism means either starfish sex or marital rape; she will not see you as Chad merely because she never got plowed by one in real life before.

And that, ultimately, is the "black pill." There are in fact some men whom will never be the object of a woman's lust. Traditionalism gave these men an unloving wife who married them out of necessity, not love, and all the associated costs of having to support such a wife. It gave these men some starfish sex or the right to rape their wives, and this at most represents a reduction of the woman's utility and an increase in the man's (but arguably did not even give the man much utility at all, because if you're raping a woman it is very clear she is not into you and the simple fact is that men want to be wanted).

Advocates of a return to traditionalism for utilitarian reasons, as I see it, work backwards from an idealized version of traditionalism that never really existed (and thus think would be better than traditionalism actually was) to a set of premises about female nature which yield the conclusion they want to see. These premises are the idea that if you keep a woman virginal before marriage, slut-shame women who sleep around, and perhaps (in some versions of the theory) use religious indoctrination... basically deny women a basis for comparison of their man to a "more alpha" man... don't let her "use up her vagina"... stop her from "damaging her ability to pair bond"... she'll respond to her man as if he were Chad.

This won't happen. Women have intense, full fantasy lives. Anyone who looks at romance novels will see that women, irrespective of their life experiences, really like hot and powerful dudes. They already, and perhaps always, have a basis for comparison even if they don't sleep around when young (romance novels, after all, sold back in Victorian times). The typical woman's biology simply won't feel aroused at a guy who isn't hot. What women under traditionalism did was enjoy their fantasies, their "mommy porn," and then decided to do the "practical" thing and marry a man who was "good husband material" whilst continuing to jill off over Fantasy-Chad/Prince-Charming/Mister-Darcy/etc. and just resign themselves to the fact they won't be getting him.

Dreams of low-standard-yet-inexperienced-women enjoying hot-married-sex with the only man they ever fucked? This is a cope. A complete cope. Traditionalism will sacrifice the utility of many women (who, going by their actions, often prefer singlehood to marrying Beta Bob), and even the utility of many men (who, if they are honest, would not want to be merely a useful provider to a woman who doesn't really lust after them). Chads would get less utility too, and whilst I totally understand a desire to stick it to Chad and make him pay, he's a person and in utilitarian analysis he must be counted. At most, it may help men who genuinely want to be fathers but can't attract women, but would they want to have offspring with 50% of the genes of a woman who doesn't love them? Arguably not.


[–]PPD-AngelIncel Ban Count: 9[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link

This will be tagged as a CMV. All top level comments must challenge the OP's view.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (80 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean by "traditional" marriages? 1950s? 1850s?

And what makes you think traditional marriages weren't loving? My grandparents married in the 40s and adored one another right up until they died.

Men want to be wanted

Shh don't tell the sexbot advocates that!

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 8 points9 points  (71 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean by "traditional" marriages? 1950s? 1850s?

That's a fair question. I'd define a traditional marriage in terms of faithful monogamy and loyalty, preferably lifelong and with divorce being strongly stigmatized.

And what makes you think traditional marriages weren't loving? My grandparents married in the 40s and adored one another right up until they died.

Because romantic love ("affection + lust") is fickle and arguably rare, particularly that kind of super-syrupy head-over-heels type. In addition, the idea that marriage should be a romantic thing is historically quite new.

Shh don't tell the sexbot advocates that!

As a sexbot advocate, I have never argued sexbots are perfect. Obviously they're an imperfect substitute. I simply think sexbots help. And with advances in sexbot technology, said sexbot could at least provide a satisfying fantasy of being desired.

Its not perfect, but it helps.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

Ok. I disagree that everyone was in miserable marriages when there was stronger social pressure to get and stay married. I think people married for different reasons, but they generally loved their partners all the same.

The rest of it I agree with. The obsession with naive untainted women over at TRP weird enough, trying to justify their aversion to sluts with ~science~ is dishonest and "cope". (Did I use that right?)

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I certainly wouldn't say absolutely everyone was in miserable marriages. And a lot of marriages-for-practical-reasons-and-social-acceptability were not miserable... I am just saying they weren't truly romantic and there wasn't Really Good Married Sex.

The rest of it I agree with.

Glad to hear.

The rest of it I agree with. The obsession with naive untainted women over at TRP weird enough, trying to justify their aversion to sluts with ~science~ is dishonest and "cope". (Did I use that right?)

You use the phrase correctly I think, but I don't entirely agree with your stipulation there. Part of the obsession with "sluts" and feminine 'purity' comes not from "cope" but from a genuine fear of being screwed over in a relationship bust-up (or being paternity-frauded), and this is absolutely a reasonable fear for men to have in most jurisdictions these days. The idea of a 'pure' woman being loyal is at least partially about men trying to safeguard their interests.

[–]gasstationradio 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Belief that women are interested in screwing men over (especially so that they can have kids with 'better stock') is also a cope IMO. In the sense that it allows men relief from the responsibility of forming lasting, trusting, fulfilling romantic bonds with women because women are filthy, machiavellian and not to be trusted. It's hard to do for both genders. Women have a cope where they believe men are evil and inherently different from them which is also a cope for failing to find a suitable/compatible partner for the long term. I think both sides need to be a lot more patient and open. Which admittedly is hard when you are like 20. Also when society is increasingly atomized and we are taught to compete constantly for "scarce" resources, rather than to value each other as part of a community. I agree with your main assessment! Very thoughtful and made me think.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with your main assessment! Very thoughtful and made me think.

Thank you.

Also when society is increasingly atomized and we are taught to compete constantly for "scarce" resources, rather than to value each other as part of a community.

I noticed you put "scarce" in scare quotes. But resources are scarce. Scarcity doesn't mean "we're all in abject poverty." What it means is that achieving all of our ends/wants/desires/goals requires more resources/productive capacity than we currently have, which means we need to prioritize our ends/wants/goals/desires and economize our resources/productive capacity accordingly. That's all scarcity means.

Belief that women are interested in screwing men over (especially so that they can have kids with 'better stock') is also a cope IMO.

To an extent perhaps. Most RP-type theory I know of doesn't allege women do this consciously. In addition you need to remember that there's a difference between alleging "all women will do this" (which is obviously not true) and "in the current environment, any woman can do this and get away with it" (which is correct, IMO). The fact that men can be screwed over ex post is enough to deter many men from investing ex ante (this is called the Hold-Up Problem in economics).

Women have a cope where they believe men are evil and inherently different from them which is also a cope for failing to find a suitable/compatible partner for the long term.

Yep. "All men are bastards," they get together and have their ranty bitch sessions where they generalize about MEN and how everything bad in the world begins with MEN, blah blah blah. And then they cry over "where have all the good men gone?" etc.

The difference though is that women's "copes" become the foundations of certain influential and powerful political movements, whereas men's "copes" are treated as psychopathology.

[–]DareyFathom6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The hypocrisy is that promiscuous women are disparaged, yet also rewarded with their presumed desirable attention. The theory being that if you provide no commitment, then those women are losing in the end. Though if those women want no commitment to begin with, they are perpetuating the cycle whilst criticizing the dynamic they are contributing to.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Love is not the same as sexual attraction.

Yes, I think women cared about their men - they really had no choice. When they began to have a choice, they abandoned their marriages in droves and pushed out marriage as long as they possibly could, fucking as many hot guys as they could in a longshot to lock one down, and when it fails (as it does 95% of the time), they settle and compromise hard for Beta Bob and all the attendant disappointment and resentment that brings.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't fail 95% of the time

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

ok. 90%.

It fails most of the time.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Unless you're going to back that up with an actual argument, don't respond further. It's not bullshit, it's observable fact.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Are you going to back up your 90% claim?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The percentage doesn't matter; what matters is that it fails most of the time. I dont' care if you call it 90%. Call it whatever percentage you want over 50%, because it's a clear majority. If it weren't we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate in the US; a 38% divorce rate among professing Christians, and a steadily rising age at first marriage for both men and women. Women are marrying men they aren't attracted to, or are much less attracted to than they were to the men they fucked as younger women. The fact that that didn't happen to you doesn't mean it's not happening all around you.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

What do you consider failing?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

When she couldn't get marriage from a man she is at least as SEXUALLY attracted to (not this bullshit "attracted for a relationship") as the men she used to fuck as a younger woman.

Which happens most of the time. If it were otherwise, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate, 25% of all women on anti-mental illness meds, a 38% divorce rate among professing Christians, and an ever increasing age at first marriage, as well as more and more people refusing to marry in the first place.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

When she couldn't get marriage from a man she is at least as SEXUALLY attracted to (not this bullshit "attracted for a relationship") as the men she used to fuck as a younger woman.

Your wrong that most women are marrying men they aren't attracted to. I'll address your specific points in the next section, but women don't want to marry uggos. Women would rather be alone or have test tube babies. If women were marrying men they weren't attracted to in any great number, there wouldn't be such a surge of incels.

Which happens most of the time. If it were otherwise, we wouldn't have a 50% divorce rate

The divorce rate is now well less than 50% and lowering as people choose to co-habitate or stay single. People don't feel they have to marry anymore and so unhappy marriages are being avoided all together rather than marrying only to get divorced. Secondly, that figure, which at it's highest, was ~50%, also included serial divorcees. Meaning people with 2, 3, or 4 divorces under their belts made up the majority of that percentage. Most women marry, and most women don't divorce.

, 25% of all women on anti-mental illness meds

I don't see how this number is relevant. Women taking meds for MI likely have nothing to do with whether or not they are married to Chad. It's much more likely to be due to the fact that there's simply more mental illness classifications and more meds available to treat those illnesses. It used to be nothing docs could do about depression or whatever until it got so bad they just gave her a lobotomy.

, a 38% divorce rate among professing Christians,

Again, I don't see what this has to do with whether or not they find eachother attractive. Do you think attractive couples don't break up? Because watching about 5 minutes of E! will tell you that's incorrect.

and an ever increasing age at first marriage, as well as more and more people refusing to marry in the first place.

This seems to be related to the fact that people live longer, healthier lives and have more options now to do something other than marry at a young age and start making babies. People no longer need to breed the next generation of farmworkers, they could get a degree or travel the world. Those weren't options for the masses 100 years ago. Again, it's very unlikely this has anything to do with people marrying people they aren't attracted to...

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I am correct that most women are marrying men they're not attracted to. Most people are getting married, and most women are settling A LOT, especially when they get out to 27, 28, 29 years old. There's a sizable number of women waiting it out to the mid to late 30s. The attractive men are all taken by then, and all that's left are the uggos, the weirdos, the freaks, and the incels.

Source your claim that the divorce rate is under 50%. I do agree that the marriage rate is decreasing.

The women who are mentally ill have skewed attraction vectors, poor insight, impulsivity, and low FTO, for the most part. Women who are professing Christians are mostly marrying unattractive men, particularly if their faith means anything at all to them. The Christian men most of them marry have not the slightest idea of what is SEXUALLY attractive to women.

Women waiting longer to marry is happening because they can't find attractive men. So when the clock runs out and it's 5 seconds to the egg timer buzzer, they pick whoever's closest, and do their best with him.... and most of the time it's poindexter.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I am correct that most women are marrying men they're not attracted to. Most people are getting married, and most women are settling A LOT, especially when they get out to 27, 28, 29 years old. There's a sizable number of women waiting it out to the mid to late 30s.

Those women are meeting the men they marry around 22/23 though. Courtship is taking longer.

The attractive men are all taken by then, and all that's left are the uggos, the weirdos, the freaks, and the incels.

Yes they are taken by women and then marrying when the women are ~27 and the men are ~31

Source your claim that the divorce rate is under 50%. I do agree that the marriage rate is decreasing.

"Yep, researchers have found that the rate of divorce in the U.S. actually peaked at about 40% around 1980 and has been declining ever since."

https://www.refinery29.com/2017/01/137440/divorce-rate-in-america-statistics?bucketed=true

The women who are mentally ill have skewed attraction vectors, poor insight, impulsivity, and low FTO, for the most part.

They are the same as women ever were.

Women who are professing Christians are mostly marrying unattractive men, particularly if their faith means anything at all to them. The Christian men most of them marry have not the slightest idea of what is SEXUALLY attractive to women.

I don't see how you are coming to this conclusion. Unless you think religious people are across the board less attractive than the rest of the population?

Women waiting longer to marry is happening because they can't find attractive men.

Orrrr maybe because they are doing something else? Like traveling or studying or building careers?

So when the clock runs out and it's 5 seconds to the egg timer buzzer, they pick whoever's closest, and do their best with him.... and most of the time it's poindexter.

Again, that's statistically false since most women meet their future husbands in the early to mid 20s.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Source your claim that most women are meeting their future husbands in the early to mid 20s.

Orrrr maybe because they are doing something else? Like traveling or studying or building careers?

You don't get to have it both ways... we are always told here that women are always always looking for Mr. Right, but fucking hot douches who aren't marriage material in the meantime. You can't have this, and the quoted above.

Unless you think religious people are across the board less attractive than the rest of the population?

Christian MEN are some of the least SEXUALLY attractive people in the world.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Ok. I disagree that everyone was in miserable marriages when there was stronger social pressure to get and stay married. I think people married for different reasons,

I'm 51 and the older women I knew growing up certainly had a different view of marriage. They regarded it as their job, and they had about as much affection for it as we do for our jobs, and as much love for their husbands as we do for our bosses. Most were grimly determined to hang on to their 'jobs' because the alternative (single motherhood, poverty) was even worse. I don't think most even questioned whether they were happy or fulfilled; if you had a roof over your head and food in your kids' bellies -- and especially if you had slightly nicer stuff or brighter children than your peers -- you were doing OK.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah fair enough. The oldest women I ever knew were my grandmothers (born 1920s) and their sisters. They definitely treated marriage like a serious responsibility/job, but almost all of them seemed really happy and in love. There was a lot of 'love the one you're with' mentality, but everyone was affectionate and loving.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is a really good analogy. I wonder why I'd never thought of it that way before.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well, those days are long gone (thankfully!). As I said, I'm 51, but I never felt like my only option for a materially comfortable life was to latch onto a good provider. I always felt I could make my own way in the world (and I did).

Older generations had it much harder than we did! My mother had only an 8th-grade education; she had to drop out and go to work to help support the younger kids in her family. She married at 17 to get out from under that burden. I doubt you see this happening as much today.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, there are still women who want to marry rich men so that they can be a full-time housewife/mother. Some women still want the old deal; the old boss. The number of men willing and wealthy enough to support that are limited though. Most women nowadays have to work, whether they want to or not.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it depends on the standard of living to which one aspires. After all, millions of disabled Americans somehow manage to live on SSI checks of less than $800 a month! So a one-income family could probably get by even on just $20,000-$30,000 a year, but most would not want to do that.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I start my post by apologizing for how long this post is, but I'm always baffled by how young men give up so easily on the best thing on this earth, women. When it's so well within their reach to be attractive in the eyes of women.

> That's a fair question. I'd define a traditional marriage in terms of faithful monogamy and loyalty, preferably lifelong and with divorce being strongly stigmatized.

That doesn't exist. Never did, and that's just a fantasy that I don't understand. Do you know of General Franco? Salazar? These were men who dominated their respective Countries for decades and decades and decades, and even after death their influence was ever-present.

My own grandmother called my cousin a slut for taking the pill, when all she was doing with it was using it to regulate her period, but even my grandmother who was young when the Catholic Church and the moralistic, fascist(i can do everything I want, you can't sort of leaders) govt. was forcing people to live the way it wanted people to live, couples still cheated on each other often.

it's the way of the world. Monogamy is not natural, and men with options - those guys who aren't obese or too ugly - cheat on their partners all the time, no matter how happy and satisfied they are with their sex lives. Men want new pussy, always, and they'll even cheat on their hot girlfriends for some average pussy because it's new.

> Because romantic love ("affection + lust") is fickle and arguably rare, particularly that kind of super-syrupy head-over-heels type. In addition, the idea that marriage should be a romantic thing is historically quite new.

That's why I believe marriage is a dying institution and that co-habitation is just room-boarding with a chick you're fucking, which is fine and all, but you still gotta deal with someone 24/7.

> As a sexbot advocate, I have never argued sexbots are perfect. Obviously they're an imperfect substitute. I simply think sexbots help. And with advances in sexbot technology, said sexbot could at least provide a satisfying fantasy of being desired.

But why are you a sexbot advocate? It's never been easier in the entire Mankind's existence for men to get laid, even when brothels were legal and common, the price of visiting a hooker was usually lifelong horrendous stds that could easily kill the man.

These days it's so easy to get laid, and even if you get rejected a lot(if I approach women without signals of interest, I get rejected 7 times out of 10) there are still going to be women you are attracted to who will be attracted to you. Women are far more open to casual sex than they've ever been because there's the pill and the condom, if they still get pregnant they can abort, or give the kid to adoption, and the social stigma of a woman having casual sex was already great diminuished when I was a young man.

>a satisfying fantasy of being desired.

What fantasy of being desired? Why would a man need the fantasy of being desired when he can be desired in real life by women, and not only by women but by attractive young women? All it takes is to be an average-looking man, to fulfill the minimum requirements that women have in men and you can be sexually desired by women, just like that. What are the minimum requirements, that most men can fulfill?

Don't be 5 feet tall. Short is fine as long as it's not abnormaly short. I'm an inch shorter than average, most of the women I meet are my height or taller, and I've only been called short in my life by a woman. My facial aesthetics are average, I have a full head of thick hair, but so do many men, and my body is pretty shitty, I don't workout, I don't really take care of myself, but I still fulfill the expectation women have of wanting a man who is healthy, or at least healthy enough.

This is a shirtless picture of myself.

http://img28024.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=80516_uglybody_122_1068lo.jpg

I'm an old man, and if I can still be average, so can most young men. There is no excuse.

He doesn't have to look like Chris Evans, aka Captain America.

All it takes is a proper diet. No fast food. No sugars. No chiptole, no KFC, nothing of that sort. You don't need to spend hours in the gym pulling weights to attract women you are going to be attracted to. You just need to have an average body, and to have acceptable social skills and enough women will be attracted to you for you have casual sex, or relationships if that's what you want.

Now, I know what you are going to say. ''But priene, most men in my SMP are obese, you are hot etc etc''

In your SMP, yes. But not in mine. My SMP is that of the beach. I live in a college town, where most of the men and women are young and naturally fit, and the men iI am competing with for women often look like this -> https://i.pinimg.com/736x/04/27/e6/0427e6d503664ab2820104f011583ffd--portuguese-fest.jpg

I know, right? That's a Chad, and my friends look like that, and despite that I've had women who rejected them to be with me instead. Why? Because women aren't men. Men only have eyes for the hottest chick around. Women can be attracted to a man's look even if he's not at the same level of his friends.

Since I'm only an average man, so the women I attract lookswise based on my apperance alone are only average -the women who are my equivalent lookswise - and if I want hot women I gotta put the charm, charisma, and sense of humor on to be given a chance of impressing them.

[–]ThunderbearIMBlue Pill Man4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Monogamy is not natural, and men with options - those guys who aren't obese or too ugly - cheat on their partners all the time, no matter how happy and satisfied they are with their sex lives. Men want new pussy, always, and they'll even cheat on their hot girlfriends for some average pussy because it's new.

Dunno dude, I've had tons of options, never cheated, never even tried. I'm not obese or ugly and have gotten specific comments about certain aspects of my looks, but you know, while I could find a woman attractive and get happy about being hit on, I've also made a rule of stopping at flirting.

Stop projecting what you think men are onto other men, most men I know don't cheat and the few studies I have read about this seem to suggest that only a small one digit percentage of men actually cheat in their LTR.

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Actually I’d say he’s right.

I pulled a 8 that is a dream to be around 5 years ago. Since then I love, care and nurture her, and thrash the you know what. But as I get hotter and financially more successful, other women are starting to throw themselves at me. I’ve definitely smashed a side price that was less hot just because it was a new experience.

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Maybe you would be open to the idea some men are more inclined to feel the need, and some not so much. We can think of sexuality in this way as more of a spectrum, where some would lean on monogamy and stronger bonding (Including blinders) and some lean towards Poly and weaker bonding.

[–]ThunderbearIMBlue Pill Man3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And you, just like me or him, is not an evidence for all men.

This is why I am saying that there's studies that suggest that he's wrong

Like this study discussed right here, while this is the highest statistic I've ever seen for cheating, it's not even close to 50%, which makes it more likely that people don't cheat, but this does not seem to seperate emotional from sexual affairs.

[–]Son0fMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But as I get hotter and financially more successful

You're experiencing a new, profound level of attraction and I believe that would make you more inclined to act on it.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm always baffled by how young men give up so easily on the best thing on this earth, women.

Question: are you a man or a woman?

Also, my post isn't "giving up on" women. I'm making a criticism of a Red Pill theory I find silly.

That's why I believe marriage is a dying institution

I'd somewhat agree, especially given the exit costs men can incur.

But why are you a sexbot advocate?

For the same reason I'm a porn advocate and prostitution advocate. I'm entirely in favor of lowering the market price of sex and sex-substitutes as much as possible.

What fantasy of being desired? Why would a man need the fantasy of being desired when he can be desired in real life by women, and not only by women but by attractive young women? All it takes is to be an average-looking man, to fulfill the minimum requirements that women have in men and you can be sexually desired by women, just like that.

You should direct your argument towards TRPers.

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.0 points1 point  (31 children) | Copy Link

Are you in love?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 4 points5 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

The answer is no, but I don't see how that question is remotely relevant.

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.0 points1 point  (29 children) | Copy Link

What do you define love as?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 2 points3 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

For the purposes of this argument, affection + lust is romantic love.

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.7 points8 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

Lust isn't love.

My mother loves my father more than anything. She thinks duty sex is part of her responsibilities. Nither of them lust after each other the way you describe it, but the bond that they share from the life they built together can't be described as anything other than love.

While RP teaches men how to have women lust for them, that isn't love. It's sexual attraction. The BP likes to sell them as the same thing, but they aren't.

Traditional marriages have disappeared because feminism has sold women on the idea that every women can find this perfect relationship and if this one isn't it, the next one could bring true love.

The world would be better if traditional marriages still existed. They aren't coming back, so that's why we say "enjoy the decline".

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 7 points8 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Lust isn't love.

I know. What I said is that lust is part of romantic love. I defined romantic love as lust + affection; both need to be present.

My mother loves my father more than anything. She thinks duty sex is part of her responsibilities. Nither of them lust after each other the way you describe it, but the bond that they share from the life they built together can't be described as anything other than love.

I think a lot of people would not describe that as "romantic" love in particular.

Traditional marriages have disappeared because feminism has sold women on the idea that every women can find this perfect relationship and if this one isn't it, the next one could bring true love.

Feminism didn't teach women that. Fairy tales did. Romance novels did. Enlightenment individualism generally did through eroding the idea of duty-marriage and replacing it with marriage-for-individual-fulfillment. As society prioritized individual happiness, these changes were inevitable.

The world would be better if traditional marriages still existed.

And I contest that idea. I think you're idealizing traditionalism and trying to avoid swallowing the fact that traditionalism meant marriages that often weren't ones of romantic love. They weren't meant for individual fulfillment (which is the source of utility) and weren't (in many cases) really fulfilling.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Traditional marriages have disappeared because feminism has sold women on the idea that every women can find this perfect relationship and if this one isn't it, the next one could bring true love.

Feminism didn't teach women that. Fairy tales did. Romance novels did. Enlightenment individualism generally did through eroding the idea of duty-marriage and replacing it with marriage-for-individual-fulfillment. As society prioritized individual happiness, these changes were inevitable.

I concur. Feminism just amped up the entitlement and gave women loads of ready-made excuses if their fairy tale didn't come true - that men suck if a relationship is anything short of perfect, that men have unrealistic beauty standards if she doesn't get her prince, that men are either fuckboys if they want to sleep around or slut-shamers if they don't want women who do, that men not believing every single word a woman says means that they're patriarchal and controlling.

But the idea that there is such a thing as perpetual love and that it is realistic for everyone to achieve it, and that you should leave any relationship where this isn't the case? That is more something that was promoted by the sources you've mentioned - which, coupled with the "everyone is special and deserves a prize for showing up"-mentality can definitely lead to an unjustified sense of optimism regarding the availability of true love.

[–]storffish5 points6 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

mate, if you think women didn't shit-talk men and their husbands before feminism then I have a bridge to sell you. man-hating is nothing new. difference is that in ye olde days the man-haters had to settle down with some poor shmuck.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. "True love" is a very rare thing. It isn't the norm and there isn't "the one" waiting out there.

Sure, its very nice when it happens. Point is that it happens rarely. People should have more reasonable standards. Someone they like, someone they care for, that kind of thing. Not "OMG TWOO WUV 4EVA!!!"

[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Have you ever been in Romantic Love?

[–]ThunderbearIMBlue Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have, 7 years going strong with same woman.

If we ever fall out of love, we will break up, because not being in love would be stupid, and staying together after that would be silly.

And you know what? We also have sex, but not in a "Duty sex" kinda way, we only have sex if we both want to, as lust is part of sex for us (This has included myself declining multiple times, but ofc on average it's more often her, because my sex drive is way higher as a man)

Neither of us believe in the fairy tale of "True love", we believe in staying together as long as we love each other. I'd rather take a relationship for the fun that it is, for 2 years, 10 years or 40 years, than live unhappily.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Irrelevant question. It was a definition for the purposes of the argument.

[–]waxedmintfloss5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Traditional marriages have disappeared because feminism has sold women on the idea that every women can find this perfect relationship and if this one isn't it, the next one could bring true love.

I don't agree. It could just as easily be speculated that the reason is because men are pickier about settling down now it's easier to have sex without committing.

Meanwhile it's harder to earn enough to be able to support someone whose role is to assist you, serve you, and run your household 24/7 and provide for children on the single income as well.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

> And what makes you think traditional marriages weren't loving? My grandparents married in the 40s and adored one another right up until they died.

Yes, but that's because there was no such thing as facebook,twitter, snapchat, instagram, and other places where women go to get attention, no? My grandmother was beautiful, and so was my grandfather, but would my grandmother have stayed loyal to my grandfather if she was 20 in 2018? I doubt that. People are only as loyal as their options, monogamy is a charming dream but it has no correspondence in reality. Those who can cheat are going to cheat, the only ones who don't do it are married to a guy who looks like Ryan Gosling, or Claudia Schiffer, and even then I dunno.

> Men want to be wanted

If men wanted to be wanted I wouldn't come here to this sub only to be told that obese men are average and normal!

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19932 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Those who can cheat are going to cheat, the only ones who don't do it are married to a guy who looks like Ryan Gosling, or Claudia Schiffer, and even then I dunno.

they'd cheat on Claudia or Ryan, too. something something ''even the most beautiful woman has a man bored of her''.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much!! Every man I know with a beautiful girlfriend cheats on her, all of my grandfathers and cousins and uncles and brothers cheat on their partners often. Cheating on their partners is so ingrained in my culture, women would think a guy is gay if he didn't cheat on them lol.

All of this nonsense I read on this sub, that most men would never cheat on their partners and would be happy sleeping with only one woman their entire lives. That's how I figure out the guys who believe this are either obese or too ugly for even a hooker to sleep with them without charging them thousands of euros.

even the most beautiful woman has a man bored of her''

And they are so petty about it. Cristiano Ronaldo, after he was done banging his girlfriends, he would dump them and his mother would demand the girls to return the gifts and presents he gave them.

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19932 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

you also have those ''ugly'' guys whose ego gets an over-9000! boost so that they develop a casanova complex and cheat on the girl they barely obtained. pathetic. i knew that romantic love is a lie, but why do people perpetuate it? we are animals!

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

you also have those ''ugly'' guys whose ego gets an over-9000! boost so that they develop a casanova complex and cheat on the girl they barely obtained. pathetic. i knew that romantic love is a lie, but why do people perpetuate it? we are animals!

hahaha, or those guys who were obese, lost weight and now they are noticed by women rushing into the sub saying ''see I was right, women are hypergamous and only want hot men!'' and then they go on to write essays on female ''hypergamy'' and not on the fact that the women who matched their looks when they were obese, were attracted to them, and that now attractive women notice them because they aren't cosplaying Jabba The Hutt no more.

i knew that romantic love is a lie, but why do people perpetuate it? we are animals!

Because of Christianity. Religion and the control it has in people, it wants to control people's lives and what better way is there for it to happen by controlling women's sexuality?

[–]JezebeltheQueen5656Crushing males' ego since 19933 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

fully agree. religion was successful just because of that. men have feared women's unrestricted sexuality since the dawn of time.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Only because men have been lazy and entitled since the appearance of the first homo sapiens sapiens. Instead of working on themselves to be considered attractive by the women they wanted to mate with, they would enslave women and use them as breeding cows, and to this day you still see how it is.

The men who can't get attractive women whine and complain and make it seem like they live in a third world shit hole with only one glass of water per day and one loaf of dirty bread for food, instead of working on themselves to appeal to the women they want, and the men who have attractive women feel like they have done what was necessary to do, and are indifferent to the women they date, either ignoring them, only coming to them for a booty call, or cheating on them.

Look at Hugh Grant. Dude was the most popular British actor during the early 00's, his girlfriend was one of the most beautiful women in the world, and he was caught fucking a prostitute. A very ugly prostitute at that! Men are never happy.

[–]Son0fMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Only because men have been lazy and entitled since the appearance of the first homo sapiens sapiens. Instead of working on themselves to be considered attractive by the women they wanted to mate with, they would enslave women and use them as breeding cows, and to this day you still see how it is.

What are you talking about? Do you have any sources to back this claim up? I'm pretty confident the first men were focused on survival - how can we speak of attraction in any context when this was before written history?

[–]Ubermensch-114 points15 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

It's a cope in the sense that a return to traditionalism will never happen under the current state of society. However, as /u/blackedoutfast said:

you clearly don't have much experience with sluts if you don't think there's a correlation between women with a high n-count and inability to pair bond.

Preach. There are women in this day & age who consider relationships to be transient, like breakups are natural and you should go into relationships expecting to leave at some point. To think that sexually liberal values don't contribute to this is naive.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 5 points6 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

But that isn't an argument against my proposition.

My proposition is that women (and people in general) will not be happier under traditionalism and won't be "sexually fulfilled" by a marriage to "beta bob" just because they didn't ride the cock carousel earlier in their lives.

Virgins who get married may be more loyal but that doesn't mean they are having great, fulfilling, enthusiastic married sex.

[–]Ubermensch-16 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Virgins who get married may be more loyal but that doesn't mean they are having great, fulfilling, enthusiastic married sex.

But they wouldn't know, would they? Ignorance is bliss. This can apply for both males and females too btw, I wouldn't hold only women to this standard. Modern women in particular though, have almost universally fooled themselves into thinking they can all pull really hot guys because they matched with some polished studs' profile on tinder (and then likely never proceeded to meet him irl to confirm if it was even true, and if they did, didn't stick around long enough to see any flaws).

I'm a guy and I'd freely admit that having sex with more women has caused me to judge women more harshly (although it also provides more realistic body expectations).

[–]Cactuar_TamerMaking poor life choices.8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

But they wouldn't know, would they? Ignorance is bliss.

I mean, they might not know it could be better, but they would still know that it wasn't very good. A bland-to-unpleasant experience doesn't automatically become enjoyable just because you don't have an analogous good experience to compare it with.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I mean, they might not know it could be better, but they would still know that it wasn't very good.

But what if it was at least decent and satisfactory?

Having a B- is okay if it's your only grade, but it's another matter if you've also gotten a few straight As.

[–]Cactuar_TamerMaking poor life choices.1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, firstly grades aren't a good example because they aren't an experience in their own right. You might experience them as good or bad depending on a variety of factors, but they aren't a sensual (in the literal sense of "of or relating to the senses or physical sensation") experience like sex is.

I was responding to someone who said that our hypothetical woman wouldn't know that the sex wasn't

great, fulfilling, enthusiastic

if she hadn't experienced actual great sex, and I still think that's incorrect. People know when they have a sensual (again in the literal sense) experience that they don't enjoy, whether or not they've ever had a similar experience that was more enjoyable.

In your scenario, if the sex was decent, I guess my answer is basically the same, the woman would know she'd had an okay experience. A basically fine experience. Maybe even a kinda nice experience. She wouldn't somehow be "tricked" into thinking it was great/amazing experience, though.

[–]Son0fMan4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Wait - so is your argument that betabux can't perform well in the bedroom? Or is it that its impossible to enjoy sex with someone you're not that physically attracted to?

Speaking from the perspective of an average guy, I've had sex with girls who I got vibes weren't that physically attracted to me, but once my head was in between their legs they lost their minds - you can't fake wetness.

[–]Cactuar_TamerMaking poor life choices.0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Virgins who get married may be more loyal but that doesn't mean they are having great, fulfilling, enthusiastic married sex.

Lolno, that's not my argument. Did you read the rest of the thread? Or hell, did you even read my comment right above this one? The starting premise was that the sex was not great, and the question being discussed was whether a virgin would be able to tell if not-great/bad sex was not-great/bad.

My answer is still, yes, of course she would be able to tell. She might not know that sex could be good, and assume that it was supposed to be bad/meh, but she wouldn't somehow be "tricked" into thinking bad or meh sex was good just because she hadn't experienced good sex.

Your comment is so out of nowhere I have no idea how you got the impression i was talking about women in general instead of our hypothetical virgin with a meh husband or saying anything about "good sex" being perceived as bad, for that matter.

[–]Son0fMan0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, isn't the argument that virgins have unfulfilling sex because it is with a beta?

[–]Cactuar_TamerMaking poor life choices.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's not how I interpreted it, but then I don't believe that sex quality is intrinsically affected by whether someone is ""alpha"" or ""beta,"" or really believe in those categories at all on a personal level I guess, so I was just reacting to the hypothetical as presented.

My position is the same: virgins can tell that good sex is good, bad sex is bad, and meh sex is meh, because no one needs prior experience to know whether a physical experience is pleasurable or not and thinking otherwise is kind of silly imo. The only thing inexperience might make them do is assume that all sex is like whatever their sex with their first partner is like.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But they wouldn't know, would they? Ignorance is bliss.

That's an interesting social-constructivist view on female sexuality. I don't know if you'd identify as Red Pill, but Red Pill typically sees female sexuality as (like male sexuality) biologically determined.

[–]GridReXXit be like that5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

When it comes to women and sex ignorance isn’t bliss.

Ignorance means she’ll focus less on the sex aspect of her marriage.

[–]Freethetreees-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yep. This is how you get a dead bedroom, folks.

[–]GridReXXit be like that3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes virginal women can DB their husbands. Promiscuous women can DB their husbands. Women somewhere in the middle can DB their husbands.

Unattractive men don’t magically get passionate sex because she’s a virgin.

That’s a lie peddled by men projecting and trying to rationalize their primal desires for her sexual exclusivity on faulty “pair bonding” theories.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Okay, I'll challenge your view. Also because this topic comes up quite a lot, and the .

There are two problems in general.

  • The first one is that in this discussion, two issues are usually treated as inseparable. Issue #1 is "women sleeping around are at risk of developing unrealistic standards". Issue #2 is "traditional arranged marriages usually aren't fueled by sexual desire and oftentimes aren't happy either".

But both arrangements being fundamentally at odds with one another (you can't really have a traditional dating scene and a permissive dating scene at the same time) is oftentimes treated as an either/or scenario, and this simply isn't factually accurate: You can have a situation where people are able to freely choose their partners but still there is a stigma with sleeping around.

  • The second problem is similar and related to the first, and also similarly a result of an artificial either/or situation. Here, issue#1 is the same as above - "women sleeping around are at risk of developing unrealistic standards". And issue#2 is closely relate to issue#2 above: "chaste women who never dated Chad/had mindblowing sex/etc. still won't be viscerally attracted to a beta/won't consider lackluster sex good sex/etc.".

This again is an artificial contradiction: just because one isn't wrong doesn't automatically mean the other is. My personal counterargument to this is the following: yes, maybe you won't think that something objectively "bad" is "good" or satisfactory just because you lack a frame of reference (i.e. even the virginest of virgins who has been closed off from men all her life will realize if sex sucks or a guy is ugly) - but having experienced the full gamut of "awesome" will hamper your capacity to appreciate "good".

Dan Ariely had an interesting video about how attractive we are governs what we find attractive in others. The essence of this video is that ultimately, lack of romantic success with attractive people forces you to adapt in a way that makes you more appreciative of other attributes, attributes the people in your league are still able to have. This is a mechanism I've noticed in everyday life - that scarcity mentality, cognitive dissonance etc. can indeed lead people to adjust their standards and gain far greater satisfaction from a relationship other people would have considered lackluster simply because they're below of what they've come to expect from their experiences.

To illustrate this, let's amp the concept of alpha-widowism up to 100. Let's assume there was an average woman who could have sex with any guy she wanted. Not just "can potentially have sex with high quality guys" but indeed "can pick a guy to have sex with at will". And now imagine that this woman sleeps with all her favorite guys: celebrities, rockstars, models, whatever. Do you really think that this woman would be happy with a guy in her league, or even a guy who is a bit above her league? Now of course reality isn't like that; but it isn't completely unlike it either - even unattractive women can have sex with hot men, the more available and sexual they appear the more likely it becomes.

It's interesting - women here at PPD usually have no problem accepting that men who were able to indulge in their polygamous instincts (sleeping around with lots of different hot women) to an extreme degree will have a hard time adjusting to a monogamous lifestyle, but instead will be dissatisfied with it and possibly enticed to cheat; but simultaneously totally reject the idea that women who are able to indulge int heir hypergamous instincts to the extreme also risk severe dissatisfaction with a monogamous relationship with a guy who doesn't live up to her past standards. And this, quite frankly, is simply mind-boggling.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I think you're slightly misinterpreting me. Or that we're talking past each other.

I'm not saying women who sleep around will find it easy to adjust to monogamy.

What I am saying is that a certain TRP argument (one you may or may not have made) is false. That argument is that a return to traditionalism will be better for women because a woman who is a virgin on her wedding night will see her husband as Chad, she'll be sexually fulfilled because she never tasted alpha cock before, and as such there will be lots of good hot married sex between them and she'll be happy. And because she'll be happier that makes returning to traditionalism win-win (i.e. for both men and women).

That is what I'm contesting. I think it greatly overestimates the benefits men got from traditionalism, and that it greatly romanticizes the sexual reality of traditionalism.

My argument is that traditionalism means Beta Bob will marry out of duty/social pressure and a woman who doesn't really lust after him will accept that proposal because its prudent and she has to. There will be dutiful sex, starfishy, or perhaps marital rape, but it won't be two individuals in the throes of fiery passion who truly crave and want each other (please forgive the torrid language). He won't be getting much fun out of it, but will have to foot the bill to support her. And she will still be dreaming of Mr Darcy, Christian Grey, etc and even if she never tasted Chad cock IRL she'll still know she settled for someone that just doesn't give her the tingles.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you're slightly misinterpreting me.

I just wanted to bring that argument forward simply because this is one of the BP camp's (not yours) favorite positions - that even if we assume that traditionally arranged relationships suck, it still doesn't mean that alpha-widowism and the implications as described by TRP don't exist.

And let's be honest: your title

Theories about "sluts" "losing their ability to pair-bond" [...] are nothing more than "cope"

could be construed as such.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I just wanted to bring that argument forward simply because this is one of the BP camp's (not yours) favorite positions - that even if we assume that traditionally arranged relationships suck, it still doesn't mean that alpha-widowism and the implications as described by TRP don't exist.

Oh, well that's fair.

[–]max_peenorCertified TRP Shitlord0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What I am saying is that a certain TRP argument (one you may or may not have made) is false. That argument is that a return to traditionalism

I don't know where in the world you get that, because traditionalism serves neither man nor woman. It serves civilization.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There are in fact some men whom will never be the object of a woman's lust.

MOST men have never been the object of a woman's lust. This has always been true throughout history. Most men are not sexually attractive. They just aren't. Never have been, never will be.

I don't think traditionalism sacrifices women's utility; if anything it uses women's highest and best use: As wives and baby manufacturers. Modernism, and the current post-modernism, is reducing women's true utility - women are not really all that useful in workplaces. They don't work as hard, as well, or as efficiently as men do, in all realms, from the most entry level jobs to the highest echelons of senior corporate/government management. Most women would be wives and moms if they didn't have to work; but they believe they have to, so they do... When you poll women and ask them if they'd rather be stay home moms or be career women; most of them (married and single) say they want to be housewives raising kids. I don't blame them - being a housewife is an easy job.

I am starting to be persuaded, though, that "pairbonding" inability isn't a result of fucking so many hot guys as it is that the guy she settles on just doesn't do it for her. Proving my theory that most women have to compromise very deeply on sexual attraction in order to get commitment. She can't get Harley McBadboy or Alpha McGorgeous to commit so she settles on Beta Bob and resigns herself to bare contentment at best. Because commitment from Beta Bob and his resources to raise the one designer kid she wants, is better than no kid and no one who ever commits to her.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

MOST men have never been the object of a woman's lust. This has always been true throughout history. Most men are not sexually attractive. They just aren't. Never have been, never will be.

Yes, this is the 'black pill' point I argue for.

I don't think traditionalism sacrifices women's utility; if anything it uses women's highest and best use: As wives and baby manufacturers.

Clarification: by "utility" I mean their individual happiness/contentment for themselves. I am not talking about anyone's instrumental value "to society." I am using "an individual's utility" in the way the phrase is used in economics.

I am starting to be persuaded, though, that "pairbonding" inability isn't a result of fucking so many hot guys as it is that the guy she settles on just doesn't do it for her. Proving my theory that most women have to compromise very deeply on sexual attraction in order to get commitment.

It seems we're generally in agreement then.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I probably won’t change your view, but I disagree that traditional marriages weren’t love marriages. Unless you are from a society that arranged marriage, why get married unless you loved the person?

I don’t believe that casual sex ‘destroys’ people in the same way that red pillers do. I believe that you are either a casual sex person or a relationship person. However, societal pressure in the 1950s leant more towards the relationship side, whereas societal pressure these days leans more towards the casual sex side. I don’t believe that now that we are free from the shackles of traditionalism women are showing their Chad loving nature - I believe that a small minority of feminists are trying to convince everyone that sleeping around = good and marriage = slavery.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Unless you are from a society that arranged marriage, why get married unless you loved the person?

Economic prudence, wanting a family, having no other alternatives, social pressure/expectation, wanting sex etc.

Also, arranged marriages were very common in the past. Traditional marriage included arranged marriages.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

having no other alternatives

Wait what? You have to explain that one. I don't see many scenarios in which people in the West are forced to marry at gunpoint nowadays.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. Nowadays. After substantial aspects of traditional marriage have been weakened in many communities.

Turn the clock back a bit and you'll see plenty of marriages done out of social/familial obligation rather than romantic love.

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man27 points28 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

first of all, you clearly don't have much experience with sluts if you don't think there's a correlation between women with a high n-count and inability to pair bond.

second, RP absolutely does NOT advocate for traditionalism.

the tradcucks who mentally masturbate about bringing back the patriarchy and guaranteeing a nice virgin marriage 1.0 wife for every dopey beta are almost as annoying and delusional as the blackpill incel losers

RP isn't concerned with making the world a better place for low-SMV betas and incel losers. forget about traditionalism because it's never going to happen. enjoy the decline, surf the kali yuga and all that. RP doesn't hate Chad, RP teaches men how to become Chad.

and anyone who says "cope" unironically is an incel and should be purged.

[–]ThunderbearIMBlue Pill Man5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

first of all, you clearly don't have much experience with sluts if you don't think there's a correlation between women with a high n-count and inability to pair bond.

I don't know where you are from, but at least here in Norway I know a few women with this high N-count, and quite a few of them are in longer committed relationships. One is even amongst the few I know who are married (We're still rather young at 25 to be married yet here).

So yes, I have some experience with "sluts", or you know, women that just like casual sex, and they're just as ok with it as men are here.

Maybe wherever you are from just likes to slutshame and it causes insecurities?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

second, RP absolutely does NOT advocate for traditionalism.

I never said it (as a whole) did. I was referring to an argument I've seen some RPers make.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Terpers often go too far with heir justification for slut hate. But you haven’t met many sluts if you think there is no correlation between a high n count and an inability for stable monogamy.

A girl who sleeps with a different guy every week is not marriage material not because of the amount of men she has slept with, but because of the immoderate behavioral tendencies that typically lead to such a lifestyle.

You don’t need correlation with causation to feel “ewww thots, gross.”

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But you haven’t met many sluts if you think there is no correlation between a high n count and an inability for stable monogamy.

I'm speaking about the allegation that a woman who is sexually inexperienced when marrying Beta Bob will respond to Beta Bob as if he were a Chad.

I certainly won't contest the idea that there's a correlation between high n count and cheating on partners one is in a should-be-monogamous relationship with.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm beginning to think the inability to pair bond and the sluttery are usually results of deep seated mental illness and personality disorders in a lot of women. They're depressed, they're borderlines, they're narcissists, they've got (usually self-induced) PTSD resulting from their own behaviors and choices, they self medicate with booze and drugs and sex, etc. When you drill down deep enough with most sluts, it's:

--daddy issues

--early sexual molestation/inappropriate sexual behavior

--chemical/organic brain imbalances, usually diagnosed in adulthood but present and undiagnosed in childhood, like ADD, ADHD, depression

--bullying

--dysfunctional parents/family

--parents who were alcoholics, drug addicts, etc.

--raised by single mom who herself suffered from the same issues

[–]askmrcia0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sadly everything you mentioned about what can lead a girl to have a slutty behavior is what majority of girls I'm seeing go through.

I swear I don't know what it is, but daddy issues seem to be a very common trait now a days.

I agree with you. The girls I see sleeping around the most tend to have a shit ton of issues going on in their lives. I don't think I ever met a slut that had both parents in their lives, didn't drink or do drugs whenever they can or didn't have a personality disorder

[–]reluctantly_red4 points5 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

What is not traditional about a woman "settling down" with a guy who is a good provider? The window dressing has changed but marriage is still fundamentally an economic arrangement.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I agree entirely, but the point I am making is that if virgin-wife marries Beta Bob, she won't respond to him as if he were a Chad.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

agree entirely, but the point I am making is that if virgin-wife marries Beta Bob, she won't respond to him as if he were a Chad.

Nope not true. If women don't know Chad exists, or that a Chad is extremely rare it won't effect anything. Like how White guys who are merely above average here go to China or Asia and become a Chad.

All of this is based on men relative to your current environment.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If women don't know Chad exists,

If she has never walked down the paperback aisle in her local drugstore ...

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women don't interact with pictures at all the same way they do men in real life....

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, I think it's a huge difference if you're just aware of the existence of 10s, or if you actually did have your share of 10s (goes for both genders - the difference is just that men are far less likely to get a chance to punch so far above their league).

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

All of this is based on men relative to your current environment.

Interesting deference to Social Construction you have there. You think its all relative and not based on biology at all?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You think its all relative and not based on biology at all?

No. some parts of men are desired biologically, like confidence, height, sexual assertiveness, or just overall masculine qualities.

However though, a lot of it changes depending on what kind of men a woman is experiencing. Or rather, the standards can become raised.

A girl who never works out and never spends time around guys who work out would be impressed if she merely met a guy who was somewhat muscular and worked out frequently.

A girl who works out regularly with a routine or hangs around athletes or guys who are really serious about fitness won't be impressed at all if h simply lift weights. You will need an extraordinary level of physique and fitness to impress these women.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

No. some parts of men are desired biologically, like confidence, height, sexual assertiveness, or just overall masculine qualities.

Which is the premise of my argument. Beta Bob won't cause tingles even if she's a virgin.

I agree standards can be raised but there seems to be a minimum baseline that is non-trivial to achieve.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Beta Bob won't cause tingles even if she's a virgin.

Your confusing a beta for omega. If bob gets tot he point of actually exciting her enough to agree to sex with him then he has met that threshold.

Your also using a strawman, women marrying as virgins is extremely uncommon, unless you are like form India,

to be a minimum baseline that is non-trivial to achieve.

I would say men who are under 5'6", obese, or on the ASD spectrum may encounter this, but otherwise no it's easy to achieve.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If bob gets tot he point of actually exciting her enough to agree to sex with him then he has met that threshold.

Women can agree to have sex with men for reasons other than tingles. Money can be a persuasive reason to fuck an ugly dude. All I am saying is that if a guy isn't very hot, sexually inexperienced women won't think otherwise.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your spinning a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A women decided whom is hot and who isn't. Not men. This is one of the problems with incel theories.

[–]pinkgoldrose0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I know many women who married a man who makes less. How is that an economic agreement?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Marriage ultimately establishes a single family unit akin to a corporation within which resources are shared, so it is indeed an economic agreement. "Economic agreement" =/= "gold digging." In addition, marriage impacts the passing down of property through family/inheritance lines, which is a further economic aspect of marriage.

[–]M4sterDis4ster2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Men have the final word in relationships, so if a "slut" gets married to a beta provider like you said, seems to me that men are willing to marry "sluts".

Demand makes offer ?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Men have the final word in relationships, so if a "slut" gets married to a beta provider like you said, seems to me that men are willing to marry "sluts".

You don't think that men are culturally pressured into marrying or settling down or starting families?

[–]M4sterDis4ster0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I dont believe in "culture" or "social norms" like many people and sub-groups like to propagate.

I believe in science and my perception of everything is based on psychology, biology, anthropology, mathematics ( statistics ).

Culture or social norms are built by few million years of human evolution and everything we got, we have for a reason.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Are you arguing that you think all social norms are a product entirely of evolution, so all culture is biology?

[–]M4sterDis4ster0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not all ofcourse, especially today you can see clearly that we are living on the artificial rules.

My point would be that some characteristics are heavily biologically ingrained because they had a purpose.

For example, "stoicism" in men evolved due to hardships men had to face, rather that someone woke up one day and told all men to be "cold".

Firefighters are vastly men, same as pilots. Those jobs are suffering high mortality due to work environment, but men are still prevailent in those jobs. Firefighters going into Twin Towers knew they will most likely never make it out alive, but they still got inside.

That characteristic is predominant in men with a reason. I believe that "culture" is a melting pot of many scientific based characteristics.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not all ofcourse, especially today you can see clearly that we are living on the artificial rules.

Agreed.

My point would be that some characteristics are heavily biologically ingrained because they had a purpose.

I certainly don't deny that. What I am suggesting is that if this is true for any particular characteristic, there is no reason for elaborate social apparatuses and incentives to develop in order to enforce it. If men/women are naturally x, you don't need a complicated set of norms and rewards and punishments to make men/women act in x fashion. Thus, large scale social pressure to make [group] act in [manner] is actually evidence that [group] does not naturally act in [manner] but instead needs to be culturally coaxed out of them.

[–]M4sterDis4ster0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If we will look out of evolutionary perspective, there are few rules about it. Evolution cares only about reproduction. Many people believe in evolution, but no one really understands the evolution at work.

Why and how did humans developed/evolved from chimpanzees ? There was obviously a very dangerous evironment a certain part or group of chimpanzees lived in and at certain point, females started choosing only best DNA males, which was and still is the biggest imperative of human race. Astralopythecus, neanderthal, homo sapiens .

Sexual choosiness chose only 30-40% of males to have offsprings with 90% of females. 30-40% of males were responsible for new chemical reactions in new generations, while chimpanzees with their sexuality are still only chimpanzees for about 6 million years.

So, naturally, only 30-40% of men should have children today, but seems like vast majority of men have children today, hence you get the bad DNA examples. So is it natural or not ? Hard to debate, but marriage seems a construction which forced men to stay with a single mate and to raise healthy and educated kids in a rather safe environment and that happened about 20 000 years ago when we started agroculture and cities.

[–]statsfoddernot blue, not red.2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The notion of sluts losing the ability to pair bond is more around a woman getting experience and knowing what she wants/doesn't want and in the knowing that she doesn't HAVE to settle for guy X and society won't frown on her for wanting to see what guy Y is like first.

Used up vaginas is uneducated twelvies talking shit about shit they don't know.

Women were happier then they are now. When people are happy they settle, get lazy, wallow and enjoy their lives.. these days every 2nd woman has a therapist, is on antidepressants, suffers from bpd, is 22 and "trying to find themselves"... traditionalist views gave purpose much like a religion does but now they think their purpose is to have a full time career while raising kids solo and seeing Channing Tatum on the side... cause "you go girl!!". Anything less is deamed being a failure by their peers.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The notion of sluts losing the ability to pair bond is more around a woman getting experience and knowing what she wants/doesn't want and in the knowing that she doesn't HAVE to settle for guy X and society won't frown on her for wanting to see what guy Y is like first.

So then it isn't literally women losing their ability to pair bond. Its just women becoming even more picky.

Women were happier then they are now. When people are happy they settle, get lazy, wallow and enjoy their lives.. these days every 2nd woman has a therapist, is on antidepressants, suffers from bpd, is 22 and "trying to find themselves"...

Traditional marriage is still an option. They can join an evangelical church and dress modestly blah blah blah. They don't choose it. They go to college and ride the cock carousel and love it. Clearly, if you look at what they do rather than what they say, they're having a good time.

[–]statsfoddernot blue, not red.0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Being picky has the same end effect.

Having a good time like pinocchio, just because someone is doing what they want without apparent consequences doesn't mean they are happy. See how many celebrities kill themselves, just because you have everything and can do anything doesn't mean you are happy.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Being picky has the same end effect.

But my contention is about causes and proposed solutions, not about effects.

Having a good time like pinocchio, just because someone is doing what they want without apparent consequences doesn't mean they are happy.

Sure. But when individuals pick option A over options B, C and D, they do so because they have a preference for option A relative to B/C/D even if none of the options make them "happy." Actions demonstrate preferences.

[–]Taipanshimshonhere for the downvotes2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Small CMV- I do not think that the blackpill guys miss the fact that most marriages were about non practical things. Most marriages werent happy. Or maybe they were. Who knows. We don't.

What we do know is that the social contract of marriage has become meaningless / unenforceable to the male, while the ( generally speaking) female gets all the benefits of the assumptions stemming from a time that a man after 20-25 years of marriage could leave a woman who had no work skills and have her on the street.

I do think that most people in most societies with marriage at least had some attraction. And - at least under the western thought - children were the property of men because men were responsible for providing for them and for passing on inheritance.

Anyway. I think we have a situation now where the old social rules no longer apply, but some of the laws have not been changed to compensate.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyway. I think we have a situation now where the old social rules no longer apply, but some of the laws have not been changed to compensate.

That's certainly a fair summary of the modern condition, I agree. Laws are always a lagging indicator.

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

What women under traditionalism did was enjoy their fantasies, their "mommy porn," and then decided to do the "practical" thing and marry a man who was "good husband material"

How is this any different from what innumerable women still do?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 7 points8 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

It isn't really. The point I am making is that if a woman is a chaste pure virgin before marriage and she gets married to Beta Bob, she won't see Beta Bob as a Chad and won't be having explosively awesome sex with him. So the idea that some RPers argue... that keeping women sexually inexperienced before marriage will mean she'll have better sex within it (of course not all TRPers argue this)... is wrong.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Right now there's a post on MRP from a guy who married a Christian good-girl who makes him put a towel down before sex and doesn't like for him to touch her crotch. Well, I suppose he can always console himself with the fact she that was a virgin!

I think these guys want to have their cake and eat it, too. Good luck, guys!

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Everybody wants their cake and eat it too. That's human nature. We're only ever satisfied for a short time. Also, how can the good-girl make him put down a towel? Sounds like he needs to man up a bit and carve out his space in that relationship.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like he needs to man up a bit and carve out his space in that relationship.

But how? What does a guy do when he has a wife who doesn't deny him sex -- when she's willing to "do her wifely dut" but that's all it is? A duty? When she doesn't want the man to do anything to attempt to arouse her? Just get it over with?

I'd advise not partnering with someone like that in the first place, but if you're intent on having a virgin bride, or even one with a very low N-count, you're taking your chances in this regard, I guess.

As I said earlier -- I hope he's consoled by the fact that he didn't marry a slut!

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

He should probably see someone on the side. That used to be the standard operation model I guess.

But we're talking specifically about Beta Bob here. The basis of the OP is specifically that she won't find him attractive. He probably doesn't have a lot of options. He can have a traditional wife who thinks of England, or he can have a modern wife who dead bedrooms him. Well, if those were my options, then I'm going to take England any day of the week.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think that's creating a false dichotomy, but I'm also suspicious of the idea that women consciously marry "Beta Bobs." I think most women really are attracted to their husbands at the time they marry (or partner with) them, but the husbands blow it by disappointing their wives too many times. Of course, this puts the onus of performance on the husband to maintain attraction, which requires some effort on his part, and I can see where men might not like that idea. If your wife started out loving you but then stopped, is it possible you're to blame? Hmmm...

It's probably easier to imagine that those devil women calculating marry men they're not attracted to for their money!

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think anybody is actually out to get anybody else, or deliberately hitching up with a beta-dude for his resources, or whatever. It's just the way modern life is structured that this is what happens. I don't know if there is any going back to more traditional forms of sex relationships. I know I certainly wouldn't like it.

One thing which hasn't been mentioned anywhere is the children. Marriage is mostly for children. And they certainly don't seem to be in a better place today (family wise) than they were half a century ago.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A lot of this is due to family instability. Poor and working-class parents don't get married because they'd lose their eligibility for Medicaid and other government benefits. They figure they'll just shack up and Uncle Sam will be none the wiser. But without that permanent bond, that wedding vow, they're less likely to stick it out through the tough times (and if you're poor, there will be tough times -- bet on it!).

Kids whose parents get and stay married seem to be doing OK and will probably enjoy a significant advantage over the kids raised in poverty.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

But how is Beta Bob's deal not a worse one under the current conditions, than under traditionalism? Under traditionalism he got a wife who didn't fancy or lust for him; now he gets a wife who doesn't fancy or lust for him.

Only difference being that now he gets her when she's much older (and slept with a bunch of other guys) and possible with a kid or two in tow and a STD or two, whereas his grandfather got her when she was young and pretty (and virgin-ish). And presumable Bob didn't participate in the sex orgy during the teens and 20s, so he got none of the upsides to the current mode of relationships.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

One woman's beta is another woman's alpha. Honestly, it's as simple as that. If a woman is mad about you, she'll at least start out seeing you as her alpha. Of course it's possible you'll blow it by acting like a wimp and letting her do all of the heavy lifting (literal and figurative) in the relationship. If you can manage to man up just a little, though, you can probably maintain her attraction.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps, but that's not what the OP thinks.

[–]storffish2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have never known of a coupling like the one you're talking about, where a completely inexperienced guy marries an ex-slut orgy-haver. I'm sure it happens but it's not exactly common and it sure as shit doesn't last. what I have seen is slutty people try to date each other and get bored (guilty) and people who have had a long term relationship or two in their past have (more successful) relationships. there aren't nearly as many turbosluts as you guys think, most chicks have had a shitty drunk hookup or two and a boyfriend or two. new-guy-every-week-blowing-the-football chicks are as uncommon as they are damaged.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

But how is Beta Bob's deal not a worse one under the current conditions, than under traditionalism? Under traditionalism he got a wife who didn't fancy or lust for him; now he gets a wife who doesn't fancy or lust for him.

Actually now he doesn't have to marry at all. Which is an improvement. Less costs, if he makes the reasonable decision.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You are moving the goal posts, and it was quite possible to be a bachelor in the 1950s as well. But most people are not satisfied without a committed ltr. And most wants kids as well. It makes no difference if it is sanctified under the Church, or cohabiting, or whatever. And the issue here is if Beta Bob is likely to have a better deal today than he would in for instance 1950.

1950: marry young with a pretty young girl and stay married to old age. Grow and experience life's major milestones together: first sex perhaps, first job, first house, first kid, etc.

2018 : marry older when he's in his 30s. She's not as pretty anymore, and Bob didn't get to have much sex in his 20s. They both also already experience most of the important milestones, so not much left to bond over. Probably divorce at some point.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You are moving the goal posts

How? I'm simply pointing out the reality of traditionalism being suboptimal for most people. And it was.

But most people are not satisfied without a committed ltr. And most wants kids as well.

I presume you're arguing that they'll be satisfied having those things even with someone they don't love right?

And the issue here is if Beta Bob is likely to have a better deal today than he would in for instance 1950.

That's half the issue. Her utility matters too.

1950: marry young with a pretty young girl and stay married to old age. Grow and experience life's major milestones together: first sex perhaps, first job, first house, first kid, etc.

Not mentioned: be a wage slave for the family, for a woman who may not romantically love you, and who may have spermjacked you.

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Beta Bob is going to get limited and bad sex regardless.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you agree with my point then.

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah -- Bob is screwed no matter what. Although Betty might be a bit more loyal if she was a virgin or close to it when married.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd think it's the other way around. Betty is going to be champing at the bit to try some strange if she was a virgin or close to it when married. (I've seen this happen IRL.)

A girl who got her heart broken by a casual Chad may be a little more reluctant to leave the paddock. She knows that love stories don't always have happy endings.

[–]washington_breadstixM'gtow1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

the idea that some RPers argue... that keeping women sexually inexperienced before marriage will mean she'll have better sex within it

Is that actually what red pill guys say though? I never saw it that way. I thought it was more about their own feelings of jealousy and not wanting to have been "cucked" by all those guys in her past who got to have sex with her when she was younger and hotter and with fewer strings attached. That's one possible alternative take on the matter.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Is that actually what red pill guys say though?

Some do (not all). The argument they make is that if a woman "rides the cock carousel" in her youth she'll get jaded and "alpha widowed" so Beta Bob will never measure up and she'll always be unhappy... BUT if she stays "pure" then she'll have satisfying sex with Beta Bob. Several RPer types (typically ones with Neoreactionary sympathies) have directly made that argument to me... one even said that the use of religious conditioning could make women see sexually acquiescing to Beta Bob as by-proxy-submission to God, the Ultimate Chad.

All I am arguing is that, no, there's no way to do this. Beta Bob won't be reacted to as if he were Chad. Even if she's virginal at marriage. She knows quite well Beta Bob isn't Christian Grey.

[–]SkookumTreeWe are DONE with "cope"5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yep. Just because you’ve never had goat meat before doesn’t mean you can’t tell when the cook fucking sucks.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a fan of eating goat, I entirely support your metaphor.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

that keeping women sexually inexperienced before marriage will mean she'll have better sex within it (of course not all TRPers argue this)... is wrong.

This logic makes no sense.

It's like saying that experiences have no effect on a person, and people with different experiences are likely the same.

It's no different than saying it's just as easy to impress an MLB player as it is a little leaguer with your batting skills.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I never said experiences have no effect. You're strawmanning me.

What I am saying is that due to imagination/fantasy, women can indeed comprehend "better men" than Beta Bob. We live in a world of mass media and non-segregated genders, so women can indeed see, meet and conceptualize of "better men." Not only that, but to the extent hotness is biological, there is a minimum acceptable baseline determined by biology.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

You don't think there is a difference between imagination and something which you actually tried yourself?

[–]storffish2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think real-life hookups do a better job of killing the fantasy than denying yourself that experience. if you never hook up you'll always wonder, and that's not good inside a marriage. most hookups are terrible, fumbling, drunken sex I can't even count on one hand anymore the number of chicks who have puked on me afterward. if a chick had an idea in her mind of the hot one night stand a real one will kill it real quick. 9 times out of 10 those girls don't go looking for more casual sex, they decide boyfriends are the way to go after all. this is why the average body count is still so low despite casual sex being destigmatized. people generally have a small handful of relationships and dip their toe into the hookup scene once or twice but decide it's not for them.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's a misinterpretation. The point I am making is that if her "first man" isn't a hot man, she won't think of or respond to her "first man" like she would to a Chad.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course she won't. But you have to look at it from Bob's perspective. He's not attractive and she's not going to find him attractive no matter what. So he has the choice between her fantasying about 1) some imaginary Mr. D'arcy she read about in a romance novel; 2) her vivid memories of her ex-bf Mr. Chad (the one who got away) who fucked her sideways so she couldn't walk for three days.

It's the same for Betty. Afterall, most women would rater their man masturbate to some random porn star on the internet, than pictures of his ex-gf he stashed away on his computer.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But you have to look at it from Bob's perspective. He's not attractive and she's not going to find him attractive no matter what. So he has the choice between her fantasying about 1) some imaginary Mr. D'arcy she read about in a romance novel; 2) her vivid memories of her ex-bf Mr. Chad (the one who got away) who fucked her sideways so she couldn't walk for three days.

Either way, she won't find him hot. She won't think of him as Mr Darcy or Mr Chad. That's the point I am making.

[–]LyaninaBlue Pill2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Curiosity/desire for something better vs just desire for something better?

Women can know they're having bad sex even if they've never had good sex. Women can know they're not very sexually attracted even if they've never had sex with someone they were super into.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women can know they're having bad sex even if they've never had good sex.

Of course they can. Same as men. Would you rather your man had sex fantasies about some imaginary literary character, or he is having vivid memories about his ex-gf's body and all the things they used to do together?

[–]LyaninaBlue Pill1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If it's just "Would you rather" rather than "Would one make for a better relationship/sex life?", then Beta Bob is absolutely allowed to prefer the former and I have no issue with that. That's not what OP was addressing.

Men watch porn all the time for reasons that have nothing to do with their current SO being terrible in bed. To answer your question, the former -- in the context of a relationship with a healthy sex life. But if I'm terrible in bed and/or my SO has zero attraction to me and our sex life sucks, that is the problem -- not whatever he jerks off to to make up for the lack of attraction.

Also, it doesn't have to be a literary character. It can be someone in her life, too. She could be going about her usual life and meet someone who makes her feel things Beta Bob doesn't -- and that curiosity can be a very strong temptation to cheat.

I was never attracted to my first two boyfriends. It did not matter that I hadn't dated a super hot guy before them, or that I'd never had sex. I was just plain not sexually attracted to them and I knew it even though I had no experience to compare to. I met someone and bam, intense sexual attraction like I'd never felt before. Didn't stray out of "loyalty" but fuck was I tempted. Even talking to her was electrifying -- I hardly needed my imagination to know how different kissing her would be to kissing the boyfriend. When I got dumped by boyfriend #2, I chased that connection with the new person, who became ex #3.

Now I knew firsthand what intense sexual attraction felt like, and now I wouldn't bother with a LTR without having that. But I also know firsthand that that connection isn't enough to build a strong relationship. Never having experienced that before clearly did not help my first two relationships last or be happy.

Similarly, I know the sex I have with my boyfriend is good even though I haven't tried other dicks because I enjoy it. If I didn't enjoy it I would lose sexual desire for him and think we weren't very compatible. If I had been raised very religiously I might assume sex wasn't supposed to be good for the woman -- but that wouldn't magically give us a good sex life. It would still suck.

If you think no one will ever find Bob attractive and his choices are a dead bedroom with a chaste wife who doesn't want him, and a dead bedroom with a wife who doesn't want him but wanted other people in the past -- well, it doesn't sound like her past is the problem there at all. As a desperate man I can imagine the first would be seen as "better," but as a woman the idea of sleeping with someone who doesn't desire me is so repulsive I'd rather never have sex again.

[–]Eartherry1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I'd like to add to your point. Women who have a lot of sex with a lot of different partners early on will have an easier time being single when they get older. They don't crave sex the way men do, so having had all of those experiences already they won't have any incentive to start a monogamous relationship.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I agree. Too bad that by then not many high SMV men will want to marry her. But there always be BBs

[–]Eartherry0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why get married at all? She doesn't get anything out of it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Doesn't she? Women always get something out of marriage. She doesn't get anything living alone with cats for sure.

[–]Eartherry0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women don't get anything out of a marriage that they can't get themselves. Men actually suffer from lack of assurance from the opposite sex, women just tend to miss it from time to time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women don't get anything out of a marriage that they can't get themselves.

bs. Not even in a mood to say why, so whatever

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪15 points16 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

she will not see you as Chad merely because she never got plowed by one in real life before.

this is the most fascinating belief to me. the idea that women who have nothign to compare to dont know any better and think bad sex with an unattractive man is great for inexperienced women

losing my virginity to an not so attractive man was a horrible experience, i didnt need ANY comparison to know this. it was intrinsically atrocious.

[–]planejaneThree Trench Coats in a Trench Coat.7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right.

I'd also make the observation that inexperience can often lead a woman to over-fantasize in a way experience prevents.

Like it took me a year or two and a few rounds of bad sex to realize that the hottest Chad at the club was not necessarily going to be the best lay-in fact often not.

Most women are occasionally going to have a passing observation that a random male is attractive. Naive women may believe that directly translates to him being great in bed because that's the one place where they don't have frame of reference-recognizing what skills make a good lover, not just appearance.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Ah yes- the one where virginity is lost via hj’s and dry humping!!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't forget kissing.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm glad you're in general agreement with my proposition!

[–]dejourPurple Pill Man0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why did you have sex with an unattractive man?

I can't say I have a strong opinion about this subject, but I don't think the idea is that any schlub will seem like a dreamboat to an inexperienced woman.

I've always understood it to mean that the woman is attracted to the man at the time (the man is perhaps in the top 10-20% of men from the women's perspective). And provided he doesn't start doing things that knock him out of the top 10-20% of men, she'll continue to have stars in her eyes.

But even 95th percentile men might seem like settling for a woman who once attracted 99.9th percentile men.

As a guy, personally I find that there are unattractive women, mildly attractive women and very attractive women. At some point my attraction index is turned to the max and it makes little difference if the woman is 99.99th percentile or 95th percentile. I feel the same way about both of them. Now maybe if I started regularly sleeping with 99.99th percentile women, my attraction index would switch and I'd start feeling a little different about the 95th percentile women.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

if women needed attraction to have sex the human race would have died out.

But even 95th percentile men might seem like settling for a woman who once attracted 99.9th percentile men.

no.

this is what i think it is, ugly girl problems. if youre a 3-4 and you can bang 6s but your league for LTRs is 4-5s youll never be happy. i was not a gross fat ugly girl, i could bang outside my league, under my league and in my league, but my league for LTRs was still attractive enough not to be embarrassing or gross to me

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If he was "not so attractive", why did you sleep with him? Especially for your first time? Why would any woman pick an unattractive man to pop her cherry?

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

he was there, i was 14 in a youth hostel in israel. ive slept with atrocious men and gorgeous men, all for 100 different reasons

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hmmm....

[–]GridReXXit be like that9 points10 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I don’t understand the “pair-bond” concept.

It sounds like something men made up as a result of projecting their experience of sex and limerence and “achieving sex” on women.

That and then everything Atlas said countering your notion of women needing to have experienced sex to know it isn’t a satisfying or even satisfactory experience.

Virginal women who have sex and don’t enjoy it assume they don’t like sex or that “sex is for the man.” That is how they know in their hearts the experience with you isn’t that great.

[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I 100% understand how regular sex bonds people together. The idea that having sex once, or even a few times, “bonds” you to another person makes no sense to me- especially since there’s never a qualifier of the sex being good.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

My pair-bonding ability has absolutely been degraded after having eaten from the pussy smorgasbord. Or at least, its nowhere where it was when I was a young strapping lad. Why should it be any different for women?

[–]GridReXXit be like that4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Can you explain what “pair bonding” means?

My ability to like someone I like and admire has remained constant.

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not really committed to the same depth. I'm always aware there being other options and that I could leave on a second notice if it was. It was a conscious choice weighting the pros and cons, but still I'm always kinda ticked off by all the things I have to sacrifice to be in a relationship. I don't know. It just doesn't really feel quite so serious as it used to do. More like: while and if it works: yeah fine - when and if it doesn't: whatever, fine too I guess.

[–]GridReXXit be like that0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh yeah no. I know exactly what makes me 😍 and it’s rare. It always has been. That’s not new for me.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I kind of want to hear your explanation too. I never noticed some gradual decline in the ability to fall in love or whatever you mean by “ability to bond.”

[–]wekacuckstupid buggy bot1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that's interesting. I got the "pair-bonding" spiel when I reached dating-age from my grandmothers who were warning me that pre-marital sex would irreparably destroy my ability to settle down with a nice sweet girl. Maybe it's a male thing.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One of the women I work with told me the story of how she met her husband. She was going through a self described "slut phase" because she had previously been a good girl and her finance abruptly dumped her, they had both been out of college a year or so. She said she was just partying and working and banging the occassional dude. They picked one another up at a bar had sex the first night, 10 years later they have two kids. They seem pretty happy, I have met him. They are both quite attractive. Super attractive people can do what they want. I think men judge plain, ugly, and fat women more harshly as sluts than the hot ones because they want to fuck the hot ones and will fuck the ugly, fat, plain ones if they absolutely have to but they still resent the idea that the leftovers they will bang are also banging other dudes and are not suitably grateful to have recieved their dick.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

One among the many reasons MGTOW and other manospherian subgroups emerge, is due to the fact that traditionalism is dead whereas the current marriage keeps its traditional structure.

Men are held onto the same consequences as before, women are emancipated more and more from traditional roles however.

So it is indeed a cope because we can't go back to traditionalism, since it is incompatible to the current sex liberalization and hook up culture.

That being said , my personal opinion is that marriage has lost his substance, so I don't even see the point of it anyway.

Why tying oneself to another person who has a promiscuous past and might as well leave overnight because of 1000 & 1 reasons?

Since the sexual obligations are erased among prerequisite nowadays, that leaves marriage as a sole economic contract. Even that aspect is moot nowadays. Laws and the government make sure there are economic transfers between non married couple, even more if children are in the picture.

TL;dr traditional marriage is dead.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men are held onto the same consequences as before,

I haven't noticed many shotgun marriages lately. Just sayin'!

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but men are still expected to be the main breadwinners, the ones who maw the lawns, repair stuff, carry heavy things etc. Nowadays modern women do not even want to cook. Asking them to is sexist.

[–]deeman0101 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Wasn’t marriage always about the economics though? IIRC only the rich used to get married. It’s only when the commoners started doing it that it had to be “special”.

[–]Million-SunsMarriage is obsolete1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

True. now both the economic and the romantic aspects have been stripped off of the marriage. I don't even see the point of it anymore.

[–]pitbull_phobiaPurple Pill Woman3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey I really enjoy this theory and the concessions it makes to both sides. I'd like go even farther and say that sometimes not having any prior experience makes girls have higher expectations because they haven't been disillusioned from the truths that a love-based marriage takes work and sex isn't always pleasureable even with someone you're generally attracted to (not in the mood, penetration can hurt, lack of emphasis on female orgasm). Those women writing this erotica in the Victorian Era were writing about their ideal without the experience to know if that ideal was possible.

Real world example: I have a friend who's only ever had one bf, one partner. I've had a few. She expressed doubt about not really knowing if he's "the one" bc she can't compare the relationship to anything. My friend and I assured her that dating, esp online, is definitely not fun or an experience that you need to complete your life. But it's hard to erase that doubt. Having had a few relationships, I now know how to recognize signs of being emotionally manipulative, and I know to not expect sex will be miraculous every single time.

While there are definitely "traditional marriages" that have worked out great, I think dating gives people more self awareness and knowledge of who would be a great partner. Also it hasn't raised my "standards" for guys at all. It's changed some of those standards because now I know what's important to me, but that's all.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Since Pride and Prejudice was brought up, the obvious point glossed over was Charlotte Lucas marrying Mr Collins and spending as much time as possible out of his company. I guess it could work for really stupid people who don't see when others are laughing at them.

[–]planejaneThree Trench Coats in a Trench Coat.5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is where my thoughts went as well. Hell yeah there were plenty of marriages that were for practicality and utility, this being a perfect example.

When marriage is the only correct choice and one's options are limited, it's not like women forget hot guys exist. They just give duty sex while they lie back and think of England, and create their own life around their uncomfortable marriage.

[–]the_calibre_cat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I mostly agree with this. Women have got it made for the 21st century. I hope the blowback isn't bad (i.e. I don't want women to lose the vote or financial or political independence), but I likewise hope that something gives - preferably a bit of both tempering feminism/social justice combined with men having a bit of a social awakening.

[–]paccount112You're delusions are making me red0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This isn't to change your view, more to change your assumptions. Your view is pretty accurate, though I don't think you know that.

The trick to viewing these sort of statements is to understand what the person making them aspires to, or thinks they are deficient in. This doesn't make them false, but it does make the speaker biased.

Now, read your post with this in the back of your mind.


I was curious, so I went to the source. I checked out the links on the red pill sidebar. In the section for brand new people to read, right at the top, I found this. There's only 4 links and 3 of them are less than 100 words, so it's not hard to find or read.

here

This reads to me like the average TRP user agrees with your OP, or at least are meant to internalize it. A girl will have her fun in her 20s, she will settle down in her 30s, and she will not die a cat lady. I have seen a lot of what you claim in your post from a lot of middle aged christian women. Perhaps you should pay attention to who is actually shaming women to keep their knees closed.

Now, a bias on my part. I read that, and it reads like a challenge. The guy in the linked comment there seems to be a dissatisfied christian guy who just found out that santa isn't real.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Ergo, a return to traditionalism is not utility maximizing;

Fair enough. But this is not an argument against TRP. TRP is a male's sexual strategy.

Traditionalism gave these men an unloving wife who married them out of necessity, not love, and all the associated costs of having to support such a wife. It gave these men some starfish sex or the right to rape their wives, and this at most represents a reduction of the woman's utility and an increase in the man's (but arguably did not even give the man much utility at all, because if you're raping a woman it is very clear she is not into you and the simple fact is that men want to be wanted).

It could be argued that females that hit the wall and eventually have to settle with betas are experiencing the same form of "rape".

The typical woman's biology simply won't feel aroused at a guy who isn't hot. What women under traditionalism did was enjoy their fantasies, their "mommy porn," and then decided to do the "practical" thing and marry a man who was "good husband material" whilst continuing to jill off over Fantasy-Chad/Prince-Charming/Mister-Darcy/etc. and just resign themselves to the fact they won't be getting him.

Which is where your theory becomes obsolete. Used up vaginas have an expiry date. Females that rode the cock carousel eventually will only remain with the fantasy of Chad. Typical woman's biology will make Chad chase the young vagina and not the used slut.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough. But this is not an argument against TRP. TRP is a male's sexual strategy.

Its not an argument against TRP as a whole. Its an argument against another argument which I have seen some TRP types make.

Which is where your theory becomes obsolete. Used up vaginas have an expiry date. Females that rode the cock carousel eventually will only remain with the fantasy of Chad. Typical woman's biology will make Chad chase the young vagina and not the used slut.

Again that's not the issue. I'm contesting the idea that if you stop women from riding the cock carousel and keep them virginal, they'll be sexually satisfied by Beta Bob and see him as if he were Chad.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Its an argument against another argument which I have seen some TRP types make.

TRP types, yes. Could be made from an abundance mentality position.

Again that's not the issue. I'm contesting the idea that if you stop women from riding the cock carousel and keep them virginal, they'll be sexually satisfied by Beta Bob and see him as if he were Chad.

She would be more unhappy if she would have to fuck Beta Bob after riding the Chad cock carousel.

BUT, re-reading this:

Advocates of a return to traditionalism for utilitarian reasons, as I see it, work backwards from an idealized version of traditionalism that never really existed (and thus think would be better than traditionalism actually was) to a set of premises about female nature which yield the conclusion they want to see. These premises are the idea that if you keep a woman virginal before marriage, slut-shame women who sleep around, and perhaps (in some versions of the theory) use religious indoctrination... basically deny women a basis for comparison of their man to a "more alpha" man... don't let her "use up her vagina"... stop her from "damaging her ability to pair bond"... she'll respond to her man as if he were Chad.

This won't happen. Women have intense, full fantasy lives. Anyone who looks at romance novels will see that women, irrespective of their life experiences, really like hot and powerful dudes. They already, and perhaps always, have a basis for comparison even if they don't sleep around when young (romance novels, after all, sold back in Victorian times). The typical woman's biology simply won't feel aroused at a guy who isn't hot. What women under traditionalism did was enjoy their fantasies, their "mommy porn," and then decided to do the "practical" thing and marry a man who was "good husband material" whilst continuing to jill off over Fantasy-Chad/Prince-Charming/Mister-Darcy/etc. and just resign themselves to the fact they won't be getting him.

It is valid too. But it would change if the one that makes the "used up vaginas" argument would be Chad.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

She would be more unhappy if she would have to fuck Beta Bob after riding the Chad cock carousel.

Evidence please. I don't see any reason to believe that.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

You think she would be more unhappy if she would have to fuck Beta Bob while having a Chad fantasy even if she never fucked Chad?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, I think she would be equally unhappy either way. She wouldn't be having satisfying sex. She wouldn't find Beta Bob hot, or even "less un-hot".

But for the purposes of the argument let's presume you're right. Why would the loss of future utility (caused by elevated standards that are a product of riding the cock carousel) outweigh the utility gained from riding the cock carousel?

The fact that women even use the "AF/BB" strategy seems to make it clear that they don't think the future utility loss is worth foregoing the present utility gain.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

AF/BB is a stupid strategy that leaves women (alpha widowed)[https://therationalmale.com/2013/03/13/generation-alpha-widow/] and is the main cause for the female complain: 'where are all the good guys'?

Basically, females 'can't into long term planning'. The traditional society was protecting women from their nature. Without fucking Chad, without being a whore, her hamster was able for better or worse see Bob as a Chad performer. By being a whore, by riding the cock carousel, no beta will make her as happy as the real experiences offered by Chads. And the Chad she wants will accept a passive BB role only for one of the few females that do not ride the cock carousel.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I disagree entirely. To be fair, women may indeed be acting on false information regarding the "where have all the good men gone" bitching (specifically they presume Prince Chad the Charming of House Thundercock is much less rare than he really is), but clearly they expect to be able to leverage traditional gender roles into making demands that men "man up" and become "marriageable" for them. This is why they're complaining now; men are, for probably the first time in history, incapable of and/or unwilling to comply with these demands.

her hamster was able for better or worse see Bob as a Chad performer.

No, her hamster will not see Bob as Chad. Ever. That is the wishful thinking, the cope, the manifestation of the male rationalization hamster (both sexes have a rationalization hamster) trying to manufacture a fantasy where he will one day be desired. The desire to be desired is a huge and often unquenched thing in many men.

As TRPers say, don't look at what women say, look at what they do. They constantly complain and whine about "where have all the good men gone?" - that is what women say. Look at what women do. They clearly are engaging in utility-maximizing conduct. Sleep around when young, live life, perhaps go into a career (but if you don't want one that's fine too, Daddy/Government/Boyfriend will look after you) but only if that career satisfies you and makes you happy. And you don't have to do it full time either. Keep going until you decide to have kids (if you want to). Find some guy that's pleasant, dependable, makes a good husband and father... but these guys tend not to be the kind that makes your 'gina tingle. But you can cheat and if you get caught society will blame him anyway.

We all know how this works.

Women, like men, are acting to optimize their lifestyles within the framework of political and cultural incentives they have. If you want to change their behavior, alter the incentives.

[–]jkonradRP is for beginners0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The pair bonding thing is directly related to where she is on the dominance spectrum. Give a high-d woman an authentically masculine and high-d man and it won't matter how many cocks she's had. All high-d women need is a strong high-d man.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which doesn't contest my fundamental contention. That's a separate argument.

[–]mistercheeez-o____O-0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think your view of history is not accurate. I'm also inclined to think that you're not quite familiar with what love in a LTR actually looks like. No disrespect.

[–]chavikux0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Coffy affirms that there are many snarky men within the world awaiting the chance moment to rob a woman of her rightful pleasure. To escape this outcome, women need to boldly voice their opinions: and the extent that those vaginas exist as girding mechanisms. Trip on a vagina, and the emotional landmines shall blow the fuse: tickling out a substance that never a man wants to mess with. It is vaginal blockage that deters the bloke from a pure pleasury existence. As you must cut the red tape to even venture beyond and gain the rich modicum of pleasures warranted to happily married, Biblically-strident folks. Cause take a spaceship inside the vagina's webbing and you'll find a whole universe of complex creases and fractal patterns. It is a goldmine of treasure and yet reserved for the singular purpose of Divine unification. Don't go sharing penises, ok? Sexually experimenting is bad form.

[–]DareyFathom0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

The theory is that everyone would be happier under a more traditional societal structure. Men would be providers and women would be caretakers. Argument being those are their biological imperatives.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

The theory is that everyone would be happier under a more traditional societal structure.

And I contest that idea and did so in the post.

[–]DareyFathom2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

There seems to be an alarming increase in mental health issues that would indicate our increase comfort isn't yielding an increase in happiness.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Alternatively it might be the case that we can only worry about mental health now that more foundational aspects of Maslow's Hierarchy Of Needs are taken care of.

Additionally, we can argue that more and more things are becoming psychopathologized (i.e. treated as mental health issues), so the growth in mental illness reflects the expansion of the things the mental health field wants to see as a problem for it to fix (and obviously the mental health field has an interest in perpetually expanding its scope, since that increases demand for its services) rather than a deterioration in actual mental health.

[–]DareyFathom1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For sure I think that is a contributing cause for it. Just the point being that I believe there are credible criticisms to modern western society. My personal opinion is mindless consumerism is a net negative societal trait for a number of reasons, to include personal relationships.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

💯

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I presume that's an "I agree 100%" emoticon?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes -- just my way of saying I have nothing to add, but you made a great point :)

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you. I appreciate it :)

[–]DaphneDK42King of LBFM0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women also report decreasing happiness levels as well as higher levels of mental disease. Although, how to measure happiness is rather dubious.

In any case, there is also the The Paradox of Choice, which exists in all walks in life - presumable also in relationships. We don't appear to get happier with having a gazillion of food options, or educational options, channels of shit to choose from on the television, etc. - or sex-partners.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

My mother came of age when the fascist regime was overthrown and people were finally free to express themselves without the political police storming down on them for reasons of morality. After she had her time of free love, drugs, casual sex, bisexual experiences, threesomes and such, she became a stripper and those experiences and sexual encounters increased tenfold. Then she met my father when she was in her early 20s, married him, and continued working as such until her mid 30s. My parents have been together for almost 40 years, and they have an open marriage. My father sleeps with other women, my mother sleeps with other women and men, and their marriage is wonderful.

There is nothing wrong about women fucking men casually and then getting married to one guy. There are women who marry as virgins and they spend the rest of their lives living in deadbedrooms, or they cheat on their husbands. What is key is that the virgin woman and the woman who's been around marries a man she is sexually attracted to, a guy who matches her SMV and someone who went through the same experiences so that he doesn't grow to become insecure and possessive. That is why you see redpillers and MGTOW complaining about alpha fux and beta bux.

These are 0/10 men who religiously tell themselves everyday they are 5/10 and that the women they want to fuck, date, or marry are in their league. That is a lie. The reason why men get divorce-raped is because they get together with women who are much more attractive than them. If they were to marry women who matched them in looks they'd have a happy marriage, but how can those guys be sexually attracted to women if those women look as bad as they do?

That's the problem, ain't it?

Classical male hypergamy making guys feel they deserve a woman who is much better than them.

Also, stay away from rich women if you don't want to be divorce-raped. Working class women aren't expecting you to make 100k a year.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There is nothing wrong about women fucking men casually and then getting married to one guy.

I agree! I never said it is wrong. I'm criticizing some TRP theories about why doing such is wrong.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I never said you had said anything wrong, I was just generally speaking, as it confuses me why these redpillers want more women to have casual sex with them, but when women have casual sex they call them sluts? HELLO?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're right. RP slut-shaming is in some ways very hypocritical. I'm against slut-shaming. The reality is most slut-shaming is done by women against other women.

[–]Noxin__NixonPillPoppa0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What's amusing is that what people consider "traditional" was only invented relatively recently by religious reactionaries to exert more control over the population.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill-3 points-2 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

"Damaged pair bonding" is mostly backwards thinking. The woman who seeks out many casual sex encounters was already likely damaged from birth, and the best traditionalism can hope for is to curb her impulsiveness through threats of violence.

raditionalism will sacrifice the utility of many women (who, going by their actions, often prefer singlehood to marrying Beta Bob), and even the utility of many men (who, if they are honest, would not want to be merely a useful provider to a woman who doesn't really lust after them). Chads would get less utility too, and whilst I totally understand a desire to stick it to Chad and make him pay, he's a person and in utilitarian analysis he must be counted. At most, it may help men who genuinely want to be fathers but can't attract women, but would they want to have offspring with 50% of the genes of a woman who doesn't love them? Arguably not.

Traditionalism benefits the overall utility of women and man by giving women reliable supporters and men a goal to work towards supporting. "Chads" lose out, but the biggest losers are the baby daddies of single mothers and women who want to be single mothers; hardly a huge loss to have them suffer.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 7 points8 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Traditionalism benefits the overall utility of women and man by giving women reliable supporters and men a goal to work towards supporting.

What I am contesting is the idea that women will have great sex in traditional relationships because they 'never knew Chad cock' beforehand. Of course resource provision is great for women's utility and I never contested that... if it weren't, women wouldn't have gotten married to dependable providers under traditionalism.

That said, if you look at what women do rather than what women say, it is clear women in the modern world prefer to provide for themselves rather than to marry Beta Bob.

In addition, if you look at all the rants on TRP about the indignity of being "beta bucks" and how terrible it is to support women who don't desire/lust after their supporters, I think its very clear that merely giving men a woman to support doesn't really provide him with that much utility.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. Bad sex is bad sex, no matter how inexperienced you are.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (18 children) | Copy Link

What I am contesting is the idea that women will have great sex in traditional relationships because they 'never knew Chad cock' beforehand.

They won't.

That said, if you look at what women do rather than what women say, it is clear women in the modern world prefer to provide for themselves rather than to marry Beta Bob.

This produces a lot of single mothers, bad for utility.

In addition, if you look at all the rants on TRP about the indignity of being "beta bucks" and how terrible it is to support women who don't desire/lust after their supporters, I think its very clear that merely giving men a woman to support doesn't really provide him with that much utility.

Being a "beta bucks" is only so awful in the absence of traditionalism. If divorce is not so easy to obtain then the utility from that position is much greater.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 4 points5 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

They won't.

So we agree.

This produces a lot of single mothers, bad for utility.

You're conflating separate issues here. Merely allowing women to earn money for themselves doesn't automatically mean they'll become single mothers. Single motherhood is incentivized by plenty of laws/programs, and I think adjusting those would greatly reduce single motherhood.

Being a "beta bucks" is only so awful in the absence of traditionalism. If divorce is not so easy to obtain then the utility from that position is much greater.

You're presuming that men will gain pleasure from being married to a woman who doesn't really desire them. I contest that presumption.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill-1 points0 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

You're conflating separate issues here. Merely allowing women to earn money for themselves doesn't automatically mean they'll become single mothers. Single motherhood is incentivized by plenty of laws/programs, and I think adjusting those would greatly reduce single motherhood.

One of the incentives for it is the emancipation of women and the end of traditionalism, as women almost always vote socialist. You can't have your plans to eliminate welfare in such a democracy.

You're presuming that men will gain pleasure from being married to a woman who doesn't really desire them. I contest that presumption.

I don't see the contention. It is women who pushed to end that system, not men.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It is women who pushed to end that system, not men.

Untrue.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Playboy magazine was one tiny part of it. Suffrage and everything else done for women's rights - by women, for women.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Men fought for and won no-fault divorce. The vast majority of women did not want it.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I've seen some evidence for that on east coast states, but it does not seem like the vast majority of women had even heard of it as an issue

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've seen some evidence for that on east coast states

Explain this. What is your evidence?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

One of the incentives for it is the emancipation of women and the end of traditionalism, as women almost always vote socialist. You can't have your plans to eliminate welfare in such a democracy.

You can if women are restricted from the franchise, or if you simply restrict the franchise to net taxpayers (who will be disproportionately male anyway, and it is unlikely women who earn their own money will be as willing to share it around). Nonetheless, you can claim my scenario is implausible, but a return to traditionalism is even more implausible in a world where birth control technology and voluntary marriage exists.

I don't see the contention. It is women who pushed to end that system, not men.

Men are socialized to not complain, and to sacrifice for women. Of course they wouldn't end it; they'd be seen as pussies for wanting to end it.

Like I said, look at how people react to the prospect of being Beta Bucks. The idea of providing for a woman who doesn't love them revolts the vast majority of men. Society enforced roles on both men and women (and if these roles were mere biological imperatives we wouldn't have to create elaborate sociological systems to enforce them); the fact women ended it doesn't imply that men liked it. They did what they were told to do.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

You can if women are restricted from the franchise, or if you simply restrict the franchise to net taxpayers (who will be disproportionately male anyway, and it is unlikely women who earn their own money will be as willing to share it around).

... the "franchise"?

Nonetheless, you can claim my scenario is implausible, but a return to traditionalism is even more implausible in a world where birth control technology and voluntary marriage exists.

A return to traditionalism definitely is implausible so long as those technologies remain viable. Will they? We will see.

Men are socialized to not complain, and to sacrifice for women. Of course they wouldn't end it; they'd be seen as pussies for wanting to end it.

Women were socialized not to complain either, but they still did it. Hmmmmmm.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

... the "franchise"?

The vote.

A return to traditionalism definitely is implausible so long as those technologies remain viable. Will they? We will see.

They will remain viable. Technology doesn't just stop working. At most it gets replaced with better alternatives.

Women were socialized not to complain either, but they still did it.

I reject that premise. Women are consistently socialized to complain, to voice their feelings, to rely on other people's help, to ask for such help, to do the Wounded Gazelle Gambit, etc.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

The vote.

OK, so you are hypothesizing to un-emancipate women. This is also unlikely.

They will remain viable. Technology doesn't just stop working. At most it gets replaced with better alternatives.

Much of our industrial technology sits atop a daisy chain of infrastructure and processes that now seem fragile. If it goes down, then it won't bounce back to the level that it is at.

Women are consistently socialized to complain, to voice their feelings, to rely on other people's help, to ask for such help, to do the Wounded Gazelle Gambit, etc.

This is a recent invention. The traditionalist saying was, "Women should be seen and not heard." Or, "Stay in the kitchen."

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

OK, so you are hypothesizing to un-emancipate women. This is also unlikely.

I'm proposing a limited franchise exclusive to net taxpayers (a predominantly male demographic). Sure, its unlikely, but if we dismiss any kind of hypothetical situation on the basis of unlikelihood you're basically throwing out any kind of hypothetical situational analysis.

This is a recent invention.

I disagree. Its found even in the ancient world and even in other species. When women were in pain, men generally protected and soothed them. Women's problems and feelings and demands have always gotten attention.

[–]Willow-girlSuffering from bovarian oppression0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

One of the incentives for it is the emancipation of women and the end of traditionalism, as women almost always vote socialist.

More white women voted for Trump than for Clinton in the last election.

[–]hammerhauntsbread pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Trump sure has proven to be against such policies

[–]PBRScagsquad(((Prima Illuminatus)))0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

"Chads" can just go back to using prostitutes behind their partners backs anyway, so the only ones who really suffer are the deadbeat men, fine by me.

[–]fetchyminx2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No, betas do that too especially behind their wives backs.

[–]PBRScagsquad(((Prima Illuminatus)))0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

implying alphas won't also use them for convenience

There's a reason the phrase "I don't pay them to fuck, I pay them to leave" is a phrase.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

No, betas don't use hookers - too risky, too expensive.

And they're not attractive enough or ballsy enough. Because if they get caught, mommy their wives will get mad.

[–]fetchyminx0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

They don’t want to divorce, they just want to sleep with other women. Usually they end up on the Internet talking to different girls. Yeah hookers would be a safer choice though.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sure they want to sleep with other women. All men want to.

But they don't, because they can't.

[–]fetchyminx0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

How sad is that?

[–]SkookumTreeWe are DONE with "cope"0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah though I wouldn’t call it damaged, it just is, plenty of adventure loving outdoorsy sluts that are fine people.

[–]newName543456went volcel-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A "cope" is a lie which is believed in because it is nicer to believe in it than to accept the actual truth.

Not seeing the point then.

Maybe for incels or tradcons but not for TRP, as TRP pretty much rejects commited LTRs and advocates plating. And if you reject commitment in the first place, it is completely relevant whether "lots of casual sex - pair bonding" thing is just correlation or causation. It is only relevant for tradcons who would like to reverse the trend and find a nice wife for themselves.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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