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39

Inspired by a thread on /r/WAATGM.

So I saw a picture of this pregnant 18 year old woman (kid) and read her demands on Tinder. Suddenly I came to realization, that this is the biggest problem in modern dating and where the biggest conflicts come from.

It's the idea that women should demand (from relationships) and men should give (provide) for relationships. That's why majority of women do not comprehend how entitled their views are, since from the very young age they are taught to demand stuff from men and almost never taught to give something in return. On contrary, men are taught only to give, give their time, love, resources, care and security, everything they have if they want to find a "good wife".

Women? They just have to be better at demanding stuff (demand a loving man who wants a family with her and somebody else's kid, a respect and love for her and somebody else's kid, has a great job etc). See? Only demands, and nothing to offer. The fact that she lists her demands first only shows the entitled mindset she has. She fucked up big time and now has a nerve to demand somebody save her sorry ass.

It's relatively recent thing, I think, which accelerated with the rise of feminism. Which may not have been the main cause of it, but definitely a big influence. Feel free to convince me otherwise.


[–]belletaco38 points39 points  (35 children) | Copy Link

What? Men demand, too. Let's not forget u/Maikowski2 comment a few days ago:

These are my prefered traits in women:

1) Feminine body shape/face. Proportional, not necessarily big boobs or big ass. As an ex-mathematician, I like symmetry with a little bit of originality (imperfections).

2) Submissive in bed, confident outside bed. By confident I mean not being afraid of everyday activities etc.

3) Youthful appearance (which only possible for 18-25 year old women)

4) Sense of humour, not afraid to say something vulgar from time to time but not pushing it.

5) Collected and reserved, not being too flamboyant, not raising her voice in public unless situation requires specifically (you know what I mean)

6) Style, dressing nicely and who has at least two dresses in her wardrobe and wear them occasionally

7) Feminine voice (I knew once a woman with a perfect sweetest voice I have ever heard. She was a 7/10 but her voice was so perfect I felt instant attraction to her. Got away. Oh well)

8) Passion for something outside make-up or social media. Few hobbies.

9) Loves children, won't raise a hand even in extreme circumstances.

10) Attentive to her man, caring, nurturing, sensitive

Everyone has "demands" - if you're not interested in an 18 year old single mom, then move on. I don't know why you guys are SO offended by women having the audacity to go on dating websites and state what they want. The fuck you think the point is??

*EDIT: OMG I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE IT WAS YOU WHO MADE THIS POST HAHAHAHA - That is AMAZING

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand why he is complaining about this chick, she must love children and be eager to start a family and embark on her feminine journey of submissiveness and reproduction if she is already starting out pregnant at 18. I mean why waste your time on a liberal arts women and vagina degree and taking valuable space away from some guy who wants to get a useful degree in bridge building and advanced masculinity. This bitch is doing everybody a favor by spiking the senseless university degree and intellectual posturing in favor of being pregnant which is really the only useful thing women do beside cookie making and porn sex so why does she get all this distain. Shrugs. I don't get it.

[–]writingtochucow2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Legit my response. Single, pregnant 18 yr old? Sure, some snooty soyboys may turn their nose up at that girl, but in terms of the way these dudes tend to talk and think about women, there's really not many worth more than an 18 yr old walking example of her high fertility.

[–]mixedrace1488/r/BattleoftheSexes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Soyboys would probably go for it more than turn it away.

[–]writingtochucow7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Holy fucking shit. OP ya played yaself.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think his standards are that high. I mean, he deigned to be attracted to a lowly 7/10!

[–]washington_breadstixM'gtow3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

He said that women are taught to demand and men are taught to give, in general. He did not imply that he specifically was taught not to demand or taught only to give. And even if he was raised that way, the fact that he's capable of making this post means that he's probably put enough thought into the issue to, in a sense, de-program himself from whatever society "taught".

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Lol and see the fellow men making excuses for him.

Male hypocrisy = He’s just growing up and learning what not to do.

Female hypocrisy = that bitch does not deserve happiness or the right to demand anything.

Sorry but OP played himself and was called out. This was just a sad, failed attempt at recovery. Try again.

[–]washington_breadstixM'gtow0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

He stated preferences, not demands. They are theoretical and he would likely settle for much less, unlike any woman. Try again.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

How is it that a woman stating what she wants is “demands”, yet a man stating what he wants is just “preferences”?

I mean, seriously, how much cognitive dissonance and frank male solipsism do you have to have to believe that nonsense?

Proof that OP, and probably all men, are incredibly hypocritical.

[–]washington_breadstixM'gtow1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a demand if the person will not settle for less under any circumstances, which is what OP is claiming women are like. If a person wants something but is willing to compromise, then it's a preference. I never stated that one was specific to a certain gender.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, but you assumed that OP was willing to settle for less. Nowhere in any of his statements did he indicate this. Just like the woman stating what she wants, OP did not state anywhere in his “preferences” that he’s willing to settle for less. That’s just something you injected into his statements all on your own, because you have a weird tendency to ascribe negative sentiments to women and positive sentiments to men.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lmao! The hypocrisy of men laid out for all to see. How embarrassing, but totally hilarious for the rest of us.

This was a great find. Well done.

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Oh no! Not being fat and being moderately healthy is SO HARD!

[–]belletaco1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Aside from the fact that you're a month late with this comment - that's not ALL his list had. It's also not the point, at all.

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Notice how almost all of these are just preferences and not actual deal breakers?

1) Feminine body shape/face. Proportional, not necessarily big boobs or big ass. As an ex-mathematician, I like symmetry with a little bit 3) Youthful appearance (which only possible for 18-25 year old women)

Probably the only two things on this list that men actively consider deal-breakers to some degree. You also neglect the fact that women can use makeup and botox to mask a younger appearance.

4) Sense of humour, not afraid to say something vulgar from time to time but not pushing it.

Most men don't give a shit/not a deal breaker.

5) Collected and reserved, not being too flamboyant, not raising her voice in public unless situation requires specifically (you know what I mean)

Most men don't give a shit/not a deal breaker.

6) Style, dressing nicely and who has at least two dresses in her wardrobe and wear them occasionally

Most men don't give a shit/not a deal breaker.

7) Feminine voice (I knew once a woman with a perfect sweetest voice I have ever heard. She was a 7/10 but her voice was so perfect I felt instant attraction to her. Got away. Oh well)

Again, preferable but not a deal breaker.

8) Passion for something outside make-up or social media. Few hobbies.

Most men don't give a shit/not a deal breaker.

9) Loves children, won't raise a hand even in extreme circumstances.

Don't care personally. I only care about banging thots.

10) Attentive to her man, caring, nurturing, sensitive

That would be nice, but again, not a deal breaker.

Notice how nearly everything you listed is something a man would IDEALLY have in a relationship, but is far from an actual dealbreaker. Women get to have all the demands and entitlements without risking there not being a man in existence to give her those things.

[–]belletaco1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Notice how nearly everything you listed is something a man would IDEALLY have in a relationship, but is far from an actual dealbreaker.

I didn't list anything a man needed in a relationship?

The point wasn't what he said - the point was he had a whole post complaining that women have demands of men when he had earlier made a comment in another thread with a list of things he demanded.

[–]Jcart105Black Pill | Anti-Gynocentrism0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The problem even then is they're still basic preferences mostly. I doubt that guy in reality would consider them all dealbreakers. My primary point is if you don't meet some arbitrary and insignificant standard a woman has, it's automatically a dealbreaker due to hypergamy, Gynocentrism, and modern-day entitlement being driven by the female imperative.

[–]belletaco1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men and women both have demands for partners. You’re comparing things some women want in an LTR to what you want in a “thot” (as you so gently put it).

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

And where was my claim that men do not demand or should not demand anything? You wanted to "gotcha" me yet you failed. Typical.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill13 points14 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

On contrary, men are taught only to give, give their time, love, resources, care and security, everything they have if they want to find a "good wife".

Emphasis mine.

It's right there in your post. If you weren't suggesting that men give and never demand, why use the word "only"?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I am in my 30s, don't you think that over 3 decades I learned to "unlearn" the stuff I was taught to do? I never had any demands for a woman except "have a vagina" until I got my shit together, learned RP and some PUA tricks and started to live bachelors life. Only then I started to demand, and that post reflects my demands perfectly. They are totally reasonable too. And they are mine demands, so they are obviously subjective.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill14 points15 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Good for you.

Belle still has a good point. Men, on average, are not some selfless simpletons who never demand anything. Those who are will get taken advantage of by awful women, just like women who have no standards will get taken advantage of by awful men.

[–]belletaco13 points14 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I mean he literally said three times in the reply to your comment what he "demands" which contradicts the point of his post entirely. I guess what he is saying is a pregnant 18 year old has no right to demand whereas he has he earned it - but who gets to decide that?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Keep attacking strawman. Women and logic doesn't work, it seems. My idea of perfect woman has nothing to do with this thread.

[–]belletaco2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How do you know the girl in your OP wasn't listing her preferred traits as well? Why are they demands when she says it, but only preferences when you do?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You still talking to me?

[–]belletaco2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Apparently you're still talking to me.. you've been all over my inbox in different threads. I'm sorry I called you out in your own post and you're butthurt over it, but I think it's time to move on.

[–]belletaco11 points12 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So if you are allowed to demand, so are women. What is the point of your post then?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The point is that women do not give anything in return, unlike most men or at least what is expected nowadays from most men.

[–]belletaco15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You used an example of an 18 year old pregnant girl, like the most extreme possible example. To say women do not give anything in a relationship is absolute horseshit based off nothing.

[–]aznphenix3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What women demand has nothing to do with whether men are actually giving or not, if that's where you're drawing conclusions from.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nahh.

She “gotcha” real good.

This was actually kinda epic. Hahahaha.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

no evidence. I dismiss your opinion, saddly.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Plenty of evidence around here. Your OP was an epic fail and your hypocrisy was brought to glorious light. Selfish, demanding men accusing women of being selfish and demanding. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.

Truly one for the ages.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can't differentiate between a thread asking my personal preferences and a thread showing, how a low value nocked up teenager demands stuff brought to her table without offering anything in return on a fricking dating site? You imagine that I make same demands that I did on that thread while on tinder. On tinder I have only my picture because that is all that matters there. You failed to show me where I was demanding, since those are just my preferences of femininity, not demands. I do not demand women to clean for me, or do my dishes or wash my anus after I poop.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment43 points44 points  (108 children) | Copy Link

Men don't appreciate what women give them, therefore they think women don't give them anything. Men do appreciate what they give to women (because they are men), therefore they think they give women everything. Women don't appreciate what men give them, therefore they think men don't give them anything. Women do appreciate what they give to men (because they are women), therefore they think they give men everything.

[–]randomcarrotaf8 points9 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Long story short: society has a communication problem

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment28 points29 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Long story short: society has a communication problem

Not as much of a communication problem as a values problem. Men and women value different things. Men sacrifice the things they value for women, but since women don't value it, it's like meh. The reverse is true as well.

[–]concacanca10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly this. I think I've been driving at this across a number of posts without realising it.

It explains the male aversion to high n count women pretty succinctly as well.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a very good point.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men sacrifice the things they value for women

Men overvalue and overestimate what they think women can do for them. If all men were as I am, we wouldn't have a problem.

[–]woefulwankPsychology of Romance0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

So do women not care that a male has sacrificed getting with other females for her, and committed?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure she does.

[–]woefulwankPsychology of Romance0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Men sacrifice the things they value for women, but since women don't value it, it's like meh.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Men sacrifice the things they value for women, but since women don't value it, it's like meh.

That is also something women sacrifice though, so they know how it feels.

[–]woefulwankPsychology of Romance0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

They value meaningless sex with hot guys, who don't possess any of the other components that make up female attraction?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They value meaningless sex with hot guys, who don't possess any of the other components that make up female attraction?

They give up other potential partners.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Nope, reverse isn't true at all.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nope, reverse isn't true at all.

Isn't that your complaint? That men sacrifice so much for women, but women keep demanding more? It's exactly because men are not sacrificing in a way that women value.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But we are.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But we are.

You are what? Give me an example?

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What things do women (allegedly) give men that men (allegedly) don't appreciate?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Answered in another comment.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (83 children) | Copy Link

Men don't appreciate what women give them

What, for example? From my experience the only thing that woman gives to a man is sex. And usually she demands it on her terms even. So enlighten men, what women give so much to men that we do not notice.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment16 points17 points  (73 children) | Copy Link

What, for example? From my experience the only thing that woman gives to a man is sex. And usually she demands it on her terms even. So enlighten men, what women give so much to men that we do not notice.

For example, a clean stable home. Men don't care if the throw pillows match the rug or if both sides of the dishes get washed, but these are things women put painstaking effort into for her man.

[–]KrispyMcSockingtonPillar of the community8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But that's the point. He doesn't care about those things. She does. Her trying to make him care doesn't matter. It's like if you offer me $1000 every day and I couldn't care whether you offered it or not, especially if I don't need it and hardly use it. You cannot get angry and claim I don't appreciate what you do when I never asked you to give me anything.

Any man who wants to have a sex life dare not expect a woman to be a homemaker. You cannot claim to have freed yourselves from gender roles then make covert contracts and claim 'men don't appreciate what we do!' You are cleaning the place for you first, so you feel better. Y'all are just mad that men don't care either way and you feel entitled to more. Think about how many women become good moms and home makers but fail to fuck their husbands often. The one thing he wants, he isn't getting, then she gets mad he doesn't 'appreciate' what she does.

It's like if hubby cleaned and maintained the shit out of your car but was never there to help with the kids or to show you affection. Can he even begin to bitch about being unappreciated?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But that's the point. He doesn't care about those things. She does. Her trying to make him care doesn't matter. It's like if you offer me $1000 every day and I couldn't care whether you offered it or not, especially if I don't need it and hardly use it. You cannot get angry and claim I don't appreciate what you do when I never asked you to give me anything.

I agree with this.

Any man who wants to have a sex life dare not expect a woman to be a homemaker. You cannot claim to have freed yourselves from gender roles then make covert contracts and claim 'men don't appreciate what we do!' You are cleaning the place for you first, so you feel better.

I disagree with this. Women are cleaning as a display of home making skills, it reflects well on them when their families (including husbands) are well cared for.

Y'all are just mad that men don't care either way and you feel entitled to more. Think about how many women become good moms and home makers but fail to fuck their husbands often. The one thing he wants, he isn't getting, then she gets mad he doesn't 'appreciate' what she does.

I'm not mad. I'm explaining why men don't feel like women do enough for the relationship, while women feel like men aren't doing enough for the relationship. It's because both parties are looking for something different than what their partners are giving them.

It's like if hubby cleaned and maintained the shit out of your car but was never there to help with the kids or to show you affection. Can he even begin to bitch about being unappreciated?

It's exactly like that. Yes. That's my point. 100%

[–]officerkondoMarried Redder Shade of Purple Man6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Think about how many women become good moms and home makers but fail to fuck their husbands often

In most cases, I blame the husband for not being someone that anyone would like to fuck. He probably looks like shit and acts like a placating simp.

Take a look around the next time you are in public. Do you find the majority of people (men and women both) to be attractive in the slightest? I don't. When some sad sack with a +30 BMI and >25% body fat is bitching about how his wife or girlfriend won't fuck him, he gets zero sympathy from me.

[–]BirdManBrrrr9 points10 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

Men don't care if the throw pillows match the rug

Women do that, and plenty of other things for themselves and to show off to others, not for her man. How absurd does this sound:

"You don't appreciate the painstaking effort I put into the throw pillows FOR YOU knowing full well you neither wanted nor cared about throw pillows! Ungrateful man!"

Convincing yourself you did something for someone else when it really was for you doesn't entitle you to someone else's gratitude.

[–]GridReXXit be like that16 points17 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Men say they prefer the bare minimum and would live in a dirty efficiency if it weren’t for women. They say that to say they don’t really care and no value was added to them 🙃.

It’s kind of like men saying they only care about access to sex, and everything else women do is solely for her and her standards.

And yet the moment a woman stops shaving her legs, armpits, bikini area, stops exfoliating her feet (so now they are naturally hard/calloused), stops painting her nails, stops wearing soft makeup, stops tending to her hair, if she wore cutesy clothes she’s stopped caring about that, and if she wore cutesy undergarments she now only wears comfort panties.. A LOT of men would complain or feel like their woman has depreciated in value.

Because they don’t just want “access to a vagina.”

They want the feminine allure that accompanies it.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men say they prefer the bare minimum and would live in a dirty efficiency if it weren’t for women. They say that to say they don’t really care and no value was added to them 🙃.

I have no idea why men say this. This might be the case for younger men, but no man I know who is my age or older wants to live in a studio with a mattress on the floor. They want clean sheets, comfortable furniture, the single malt and the rocks glasses where they should be, good meals, and an atmosphere that says "successful grownup" instead of "penniless student." Men like creature comforts just as much as the next person.

[–]GridReXXit be like that10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. Of course that’s what they want!

But some men for the sake of argument like to act as though this is an invention of women.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Putting a modicum of effort into your personal hygiene isn’t a contribution to a relationship and that so many women believe that it is speaks volumes to who gives and who takes in relationships. Holy shit.

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Men say they prefer the bare minimum and would live in a dirty efficiency if it weren’t for women. They say that to say they don’t really care and no value was added to them.

I do my own cleaning. In fact, when my wife cleans the areas that I care about she hardly ever meets my standards so I do it myself. You're not going to magically make people care about something they didn't care about before without good reason.

It’s kind of like men saying they only care about access to sex, and everything else women do is solely for her and her standards.

This is reinforced by my experience where I ask them to stop wearing makeup because I prefer their natural look (and no, not foundation, but straight up natural with nothing) and they do not.

A LOT of men would complain or feel like their woman has depreciated in value.

Now there are two questions to follow up on. How many of those things would you do irregardless of men? Second, are you seeking men out that specifically value these things?

[–]GridReXXit be like that3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It’s not about seeking men out who value those things.

Also I’m not talking about some Kim Kardashian pancake makeup.

I’m talking about fresh faced often over-looked feminine grooming that men appreciate.

For example, women’s feet aren’t naturally soft.

My point is men claim they don’t care about XYZ, but they don’t realize they care until it stops happening.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My favorite thing men complain about on Reddit is how women use “too much” toilet paper, especially young men co-habitating for the first time. The circlejerk seems to have died down a bit, but a few years ago I saw the sentiment expressed a lot. And yet those men probably wouldn’t want to date a girl whose clothes and crotch smells like old piss. Some men think women are just naturally soft, smooth and pleasant smelling. Lol.

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

And my point is that men claim they don't care about XYZ and really do not value XYZ. That's why I specifically used the example of absolutely no makeup.

[–]GridReXXit be like that3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Okay so don’t use makeup.

I mentioned many other feminine grooming activities that men tend to appreciate despite it having nothing to do with her functioning vagina.

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay, now consider which of those feminine grooming activities you would stop doing if you didn't have a man in your life and wasn't looking for one.

There are many grooming things I do for myself that have nothing to do with the women in my life. I do it because I myself take pride in those aspects. Making women value them when they never asked for it is asinine.

If a man says something about any of those aspects, then you absolutely have a right to point them out and to place value on them. If they do not though, then you do not automatically get to assign value to them for him.

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is reinforced by my experience where I ask them to stop wearing makeup because I prefer their natural look (and no, not foundation, but straight up natural with nothing) and they do not.

Do you think this applies to all or even most men? I mean I know that we'd all prefer our partners to know us enough to know whether or not they're telling us the truth or not, but that isn't going to be the case so sometimes we have to make best guesses of what most people do/say and what that means.

[–]concacanca1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

TIL personal grooming is equal to home accessorising in terms of sexual attraction.

[–]GridReXXit be like that6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If that’s your takeaway, that’s your takeaway 🤷🏽‍♀️

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Here comes the object...

[–]GridReXXit be like that2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Subject?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, object. I meant to make a joke of how men objectify women. I'm not good at jokes.

[–]GridReXXit be like that2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ahh. No I wasn’t intending to paint that particular picture in my example

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment9 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Women do that, and plenty of other things for themselves and to show off to others, not for her man. How absurd does this sound:

Doing that stuff for men is for themselves. She wants him to be able to show off too. She wants him to show her off, "look at what a good home maker my wife is!"

"You don't appreciate the painstaking effort I put into the throw pillows FOR YOU knowing full well you neither wanted nor cared about throw pillows! Ungrateful man!"

It's no more absurd then men who want recognition and appreciation for taking a hypothetical bullet for their families. 99.9% of men will never be in that situation, and women don't care about men's hero fantasies. Yet, often enough, men come here and complain that women don't love them for who they are because they don't suck a dick every time a man thinks he's brave.

Convincing yourself you did something for someone else when it really was for you doesn't entitle you to someone else's gratitude.

Of course it doesn't. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. Everybody believes what their doing for other people is a big deal and deserving of gratitude, but unless the other person actually wants or needs it, the effort is largely a waste.

[–]BirdManBrrrr5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Then why are you so adamant women are doing things for their man because of love, when in reality its entirely for herself?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Then why are you so adamant women are doing things for their man because of love, when in reality its entirely for herself?

Just because men don't appreciate it, doesn't mean that women aren't doing it for men. You guys are going out of your way to miss my point.

[–]writingtochucow4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You guys are going out of your way to miss my point.

They really are. I hope that this is just 'internet argument idiocy' and these dudes don't really think all this stuff is worthless and that their gfs are doing it solely out of self-interest.

[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’ll go a bit further and say some men do appreciate it and even express that. I know having a comfortable home is important to my husband- because he tells me. I know having people over and entertaining them makes him proud- because he tells me.

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's an odd thing to say. What if your man told you to stop wearing makeup or vice versa because he appreciates it more. Would you stop? What if your man asked you to stop trying to match the drapes with the throw pillow with the carpet? Would you stop?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's an odd thing to say. What if your man told you to stop wearing makeup or vice versa because he appreciates it more. Would you stop? What if your man asked you to stop trying to match the drapes with the throw pillow with the carpet? Would you stop?

This is more of a watch what they do, not what they say situation. Men might be annoyed that it takes you an extra 20 minutes to get ready because of make-up, and might think he'd prefer you not, but 2 hours later he'll ask you if your feeling well, and tell you that you look tired. Men may not appreciate women doing it, but the enjoy having the shit done. You know?

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men might be annoyed that it takes you an extra 20 minutes to get ready because of make-up, and might think he'd prefer you not, but 2 hours later he'll ask you if your feeling well, and tell you that you look tired.

The only time these things register to me are for social events with people that could influence our professional lives.

Otherwise, my experience has been that I have constantly pointed out things that women say they do for me and I do not value and they continue to do so because they value it.

This goes to my response in the other thread and why I give validity to the 5 love languages. You are giving "love" in the way you want, but not necessarily what they'll appreciate or even value then you expect them to equate your value on it.

That's like me trying to sell you a Snickers bar for $10, but you only wanting to buy it for $1, then me forcing you to buy it (and value it) at $10.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You should not expect the answer from a woman whose only and best example of "women doing stuff for her man" is clean house. Damn, I can do this shit since 16 years old! Then I do even more once I started to live by myself, I clean something in my house almost everyday and that's not counting dishes, which I do 2 times a day.

[–]ppdlurker4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

My gf was complaining that she is like my mom and does everything. In reality "everything" is stuff she cares about that she would do regardless if she was in a relationship with me, so she isn't really sacrificing. I don't care about making the bed, I am just going to mess it up tonight when I get back in (I roll around in my sleep a lot too). I don't care if the throw pillows are on right, I don't care if there are throw pillows at all. I don't care that she "cleaned" the bathroom, it wasn't really dirty and most of the stuff laying around was her crap. I don't care that she bought something cute for the house. In her mind, she is a slave for doing stuff I don't care about at all.

[–]OfSpock5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

(I roll around in my sleep a lot too)

Men: causing extra housework since forever.

[–]GridReXXit be like that4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can always judge a person by the crevices of their toilet 😌.

I don’t obsess over cleaning the bathroom countertop of belongings, but some stuff is just for sanitary purposes.

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Buckle up, you ungrateful, lazy man! It only gets worse from here...

[–]mwait1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is not remotely for her man. That is for herself. And you know it.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is not remotely for her man. That is for herself. And you know it.

As I've explained and detailed and given examples for; yes it's for her family, including her husband. It reflects well on her when they are cared for.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

No, women create the clean stable home for themselves and their kids, and as a status symbol to show off to their grrrrlfraaaands (check out MY clean stable house! It's cleaner and better (and bigger and with better more expensive shit) than YOUR house, Brenda!!!)

You don't do it for us. You do it for yourselves.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment10 points11 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

You don't do it for us. You do it for yourselves.

Nah, when women live alone they fill their apartment Barbie dream house style, pink sparkly shit everywhere. When a woman starts buying furniture in neutral colors, that's for love.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree that if a woman lives alone, her house will be a mess. A total mess as if there was living a 90 year old grandma. It says a lot about the woman and what to expect from her if you decided to LTR or even marry her.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree that if a woman lives alone, her house will be a mess. A total mess as if there was living a 90 year old grandma. It says a lot about the woman and what to expect from her if you decided to LTR or even marry her.

Sure.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

No, When you start buying furniture in neutral colors, that's for status amongst the womenfolk.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No, When you start buying furniture in neutral colors, that's for status amongst the womenfolk.

Which is also status for him. She gains status by doing this shit for him.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

No, it's really just for her...

We don't care about that.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment9 points10 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No, it's really just for her...

We don't care about that.

Oh my God. You really don't read my comments do you? Just because you don't care about doesn't mean she doesn't do it for you. It's literally my thesis statement. She is putting in all of this work to make you look good, and you don't care.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, she's not putting in this work to make men look good.

She's putting in the work to make HER look good to her grrrrlfraaands.

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

that's for love.

No, that's for some narrative she concocted in her head.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

No, that's for some narrative she concocted in her head.

No it's not.

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Then what's it for?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment3 points4 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Then what's it for?

To make her man happy and look good, which reflects well on her.

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

reflects well on her with 3rd parties with whom she is looking to gain approval and status.

Fixed.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yes, married women, and even then only some. Most girls who are in for casual dating/relationships will never ever do such things. So again, what do women bring to the table apart from their vaginas?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, married women, and even then only some. Most girls who are in for casual dating/relationships will never ever do such things. So again, what do women bring to the table apart from their vaginas?

Lol what do you think men who are casually dating give to women?

Of course your not finding girls who casually date to make huge sacrifices for guys, why would they? They'd never get real commitment that way. Casual dating is about seeing the long term potential of someone, to see if they are worth sacrificing for when things get more serious. And also for funsies.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So nothing. QED. That was my point of the thread.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So nothing. QED. That was my point of the thread.

That was only half the point of your thread. The second part was that men are selfless givers in this situation.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

What else would a woman give to a man if the only thing he wants is sex? Anything else she could give (like her time, love and care -as you suggest men give in your OP) wouldn't be appreciated.

Casual dating is"casual" because there is no expectation of a deeper bond. What do men offer to casual dating partners other than their money?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What else would a woman give to a man if the only thing he wants is sex?

Why would you assume a guy who's in for LTR expects and wants only sex from a woman? Isn't it too much of a misandrist view? Men love sex, not a secret. Women love sex too.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, married women, and even then only some. Most girls who are in for casual dating/relationships will never ever do such things. So again, what do women bring to the table apart from their vaginas?

You specified that you were talking about women who are out for casual dating.

I'll assume you were just trying to move the goalpost there, so I'll switch gears to LTRS.

Some men don't appreciate the love, time and care that women give to them. (Again, your words) Thus they, like you, think they get nothing but sex. Women also more and more frequently contribute money to LTRs, but you appear to be glossing over that.

Among married-couple households, about 13 percent consisted of families with children in which only the husband worked, 31 percent were dual-income families with children, 25 percent were dual-income families with no children, and 31 percent consisted of other types of families, such as older married couples whose children no longer reside in the household.

http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2003/TraditionalFamiliesAccountforOnly7PercentofUSHouseholds.aspx

And that's old data. The economic need for both partners to work has only worsened since then.

[–]haunting-you 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

uh...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Women benefit far, far more from marriage than men do. For men, marriage is all burden and obligation, and very, very little benefit.

[–]haunting-you 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

nope. you should go read the thread too, until it sinks in.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Are you a man?

How do you know what benefits men and what does not? How do you know how men experience marriage?

[–]aznphenix4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Then are you a woman? How do you know what benefits women and what does not? How do you know how women experience marriage?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm talking about what DOES NOT benefit men.

I can see with my own eyes that "keeping a nice home" is not for men, but for women - a showcase trophy case to show her grrlfraands. I don't have to experience it internally to see that's what it is. It's clear by simple observation.

[–]aznphenix6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men don't benefit from a nice home or the children being taken care of? I mean I'm not going to go into depth here - I just found it ludicrous that you were countering someone saying that lots of people thinking men benefit more is somehow countered by you asking them if they're a man and how they know what men do/don't benefit from as if that somehow means you know what women do/don't benefit from in marriage.

[–]frogsgoribbit7371 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Statistics show that men who are married make more and also are happier than men who aren't. Opposite is true for women in both cases. So that right there kind of proves that men are getting more from a marriage.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nah. It is evidence that some men get something out of marriage.

It is not proof that all men get more from marriage than women do.

Women report more dissatisfaction in marriage because they are always dissatisfied with everything. They are always unhappy.

[–]jerryskids_Purple Pill Man1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Ah wise man.. I see.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Littleknownfacts is female.

[–]jerryskids_Purple Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks tips.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men don't appreciate what women give them

Nagging, headaches, demands and the blame?

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nagging, headaches, demands and the blame?

😒

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer25 points26 points  (63 children) | Copy Link

Inspired by a thread on /r/WAATGM.

So I saw a picture of this pregnant 18 year old woman (kid) and read her demands on Tinder. Suddenly I came to realization, that this is the biggest problem in modern dating and where the biggest conflicts come from.

From reading the biography of a Tinder profile you found on a subreddit dedicated to cherry picking out specific types of women, you made the conclusion that women are taught from a young age to be demanding? This would be similar to if I cherry picked an article about a man killing someone then just concluded "men are taught to be violent murderers". It is such a foolish way of thinking.

It's relatively recent thing, I think, which accelerated with the rise of feminism

Feminism is a lot like Marxism; almost everyone who is against it has no idea what it is. If you have an idea of what feminism is, and how it contributed to a single mother on Tinder having demands, then I would like to know.

[–]S1imdragxn8 points9 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

I’ve already told you countless times that I know a great deal about Marxism and feminism, still can’t stand em

Ask me anything

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer4 points5 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Good for you.

[–]S1imdragxn5 points6 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

Well just goes to show your criticism of anti feminists is entirely fabricated

I assure you someone like Shapiro knows more about Marxism than your campus Maoist friends

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I have no friends on my campus that are Maoists. I do not know what Shapiro knows about Marxism and I do not really care.

My criticism of anti-feminists is that they are tilting at windmills, they can not even answer simple questions about their arguments.

[–]S1imdragxn1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Like what’s a question they can’t answer?

Look here’s the thing, all ideologies are bullshit which is why anyone can criticize anything. Idgaf about Shapiro either but he’s the first prominent anti feminist I could think of

Like not even the Marxists can tell you what Marxism is in theory, they argue endlessly just like PPD

What anti-feminists and anti-Marxists are talking about in regards to those ideologies are the actual social programs that came to pass in self proclaimed Marxist countries and most are right to point out that it looked like shit and was unamerican af

What Marxism is in theory can never be connected to any social woe simply because they’re still arguing about “the science” of Marxism

But what Marxism is in spirit is shitty and spiteful and quite frankly an out dated thing that needs to be wholly transcended for this century

[–]RepresentativeData2 points3 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I question people like Shapiro, Peterson, Lauren Southern, Milo... Just like feminism, they market themselves on being controversial and rebellious, but also like feminism, they have gained huge followings. In my most paranoid state I'd say they all seem bought and payed for by somebody who wants Alt-Right vs. Feminism to be the mainstream political climate. I'm not sure what the end goal of this would be.

[–]officerkondoMarried Redder Shade of Purple Man0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

controversial and rebellious

This is a novel description of Ben Shapiro.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You should check out the RationalWiki article on him.

[–]officerkondoMarried Redder Shade of Purple Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

RationalWiki is laughable.

[–]S1imdragxn0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

See my replies to Electra and DebatePony

Fuck the “alt media” too in short

I do think Peterson is just doing his own thinking out loud he’s not paid for I don’t think. Not unless culture is preparing for a really big shift.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

“Cultural Marxism” is just code for hating Jews and, more recently, feminists.

[–]S1imdragxn1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

No it’s not see my reply to Electra

Cultural Marxism is the spirit of Marxism expressed through popular culture

The problem with Marxism is that it’s a slave ideology which is spiteful and hates true glory

Nietzsche may be nearly just as old as Marxism but he was dead ass right about that

Capitalism vs communism is over. The debate and thing worth killing over for the last 60 years should have been the Harris-esque materialist interpretation of ontology and the Nietzschean one

We should be even beyond that but we can only think so far ahead when we’re stuck in shitty thought loops of the past given to us by our “education”.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

Every person I’ve ever seen use the phrase “cultural Marxism” is someone who learned it from anti-Semetic YouTube channels and uses it as a catchall term for “people I don’t like”, ie feminists, leftists, ethnic and religious minorities. The term dates back to Nazi Germany and is indeed a dogwhistle for anti-Semitism, back when it was called cultural Bolshevism.

[–]S1imdragxn1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Sure just like the left loves to demonize Christianity and the west with their terms

It’s all bullshit let’s get that out of the way

My point is that the alt right anti Semitics feel indignant and smug about this point because they know they’re right, it’s a shit ideology the people really are pushing in spirit the very same logical axioms of spite that Marxist and post Marxist thought led to

The left is also right about bad ideas on the right, which is why they’re so smug and indignant

Point is we can’t kill these ideologies without killing their oppositions too, kill the whole damn debate

If we don’t get rid of Marxist underpinnings we won’t get rid of fascist ones why because they define each other by opposition

It’s mostly a story we’re all telling ourselves, the whole story just needs to go lest we keep acting on it and falsely attributing random events to it

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

How are the anti-Semites “right”?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, it seems to be some kind of conspiracy theory (usually involving Jews or the Frankfurt school or some such). It, along with "globalist" seem to be used mostly by alt-right types as dogwhistle for antisemitism. That's why I can't stand dweebs like Sargon or that conservative muppet sounding Canadian prof (his fans especially are particularly insufferable).

[–]mwait4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is a lot like Marxism; almost everyone who is against it has no idea what it is.

Sorry, but this is a pretty comical statement.

I could just as easily and accurately suggest that the vast majority of those for Feminism have no idea what it actually stands for.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think electrcute would disagree with that statement.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not see how that statement is comical. I agree with the second part of your comment.

[–]BirdManBrrrr8 points9 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

From reading the biography of a Tinder profile you found on a subreddit dedicated to cherry picking out specific types of women

With a growing number of data points. These memes of "I want a rich, 6 foot, jacked guy with a nice car and a house" don't exist because female entitlement in dating is some story concocted by angry losers on the internet. Is there not OKC data with +75% of women thinking they match with the top 20% of guys? Entitlement.

Feminism is a lot like Marxism; almost everyone who is against it has no idea what it is.

Feminists don't actually know what feminism is; ask 10 women and you'll get 10 distinctly different answers, while simultaneously arguing non-feminists don't get it.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Most people proclaiming to be feminists are not feminists, there is also different types of feminism.

[–]concacanca13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yay I get to use this! Care of Karen Straughn

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter. You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good example

[–]BirdManBrrrr2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You're beautifully making my point:

Most people proclaiming to be feminists are not feminists

Says who? You? The HuffPo editorial board? Trigglypuff? The Womyns Studies department at any random university? The Swedish Government?

there is also different types of feminism

With such wide variation there is often severe disagreement between each sect.

To your original point:

Feminism is a lot like Marxism; almost everyone who is against it has no idea what it is.

Yea, because literally nobody knows what it is.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

For anyone who does some research past listening to right-wing YouTubers opinions and regurgitating secondary sources it becomes really clear what feminism is. I do not think posting on tumblr, being an overweight women with colored hair or writing a Huffington Post thoughtpiece or even believing gender equality necessarily makes someone a feminist. If that is the case then it is really incohorent and makes no sense how it even has an impact.

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How can you argue your definition--whatever that is--is the right one and someone is not a real feminist, when some other woman can potentially argue you're wrong and you are not a real feminist?

What makes your definition pass the purity test?

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well it is not even my definition of “feminism” is the right one. It is just that the definition of “feminism” that is used on here is incohorent and baseless. The actual term “feminism” is almost meaningless because feminism splits into different types.

This thing called “feminism” that people refer to on here, I actually have no idea what it is. If you can give me a definition and justify it, I am open to reading it.

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The actual term “feminism” is almost meaningless because feminism splits into different types.

Good, we now agree with my statement of:

Feminists don't actually know what feminism is; ask 10 women and you'll get 10 distinctly different answers, while simultaneously arguing non-feminists don't get it.

[–]Telauge0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Modern feminism has no defined goal other than "push women forward."

The different sects of Christianity all look the same to people who aren't religious, after all.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Modern feminist movements have some really assiduously defined goals.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Whenever I bring up something about feminism that an individual feminist disagrees with, she'll say "those are just the crackpots."

They don't realize that the crackpots have a seat at the table too because "push women forward" means different things to different people. "Push women forward ahead of men" "Push women forward to equal men" "Push women forward in this one field or career" are all different things with many different meaning of what "forward" means and whether they're pushing someone else out of the way to get it, and who they blame for needing the push in the first place.

[–]Butt_Man_690 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can agree with that. Thank you. What would you say all of them think?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminists don't actually know what feminism is; ask 10 women and you'll get 10 distinctly different answers, while simultaneously arguing non-feminists don't get it.

That's because modern feminism doesn't have a defined goal other than "Push women forward" and doesn't have defined mouthpieces because the internet has destroyed the need for true leaders. The conglomeration of the mass blob of feminist opinions is feminism, and feminists don't realize that people who aren't feminists don't distinguish between whatever feminists agree or disagree with each other about.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There is no "feminism".

I cannot point to a single idea that a self proclaimed feminist couldn't say "that's not REAL feminism".

[–]gasparddelanuit1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Inspired by a thread on /r/WAATGM. So I saw a picture of this pregnant 18 year old woman (kid) and read her demands on Tinder. Suddenly I came to realization, that this is the biggest problem in modern dating and where the biggest conflicts come from. 

From reading the biography of a Tinder profile you found on a subreddit dedicated to cherry picking out specific types of women, you made the conclusion that women are taught from a young age to be demanding? This would be similar to if I cherry picked an article about a man killing someone then just concluded "men are taught to be violent murderers". It is such a foolish way of thinking.

He said that the thread and the Tinder profile inspired him to come to his realisation, about how demanding women are relative to men, not that he was concluding this solely from those sources.

It's relatively recent thing, I think, which accelerated with the rise of feminism 

Feminism is a lot like Marxism; almost everyone who is against it has no idea what it is.

People in the RP community have a pretty good idea about what feminism is, as well as the gaslighting feminists employ to try and convince men that feminism does not have a negative impact on men.

If you have an idea of what feminism is, and how it contributed to a single mother on Tinder having demands, then I would like to know.

Feminism affects someone like the single mother on Tinder by the false narratives it propagates throughout the culture, overt and subtle. Those narratives say that men are bad, women are good. Men have it good, women have it bad. Men are oppressors, women are their victims. Men have power, women don’t. Men must be disempowered, women must be empowered. Feminist narratives dehumanise men and portray them as invulnerable, omniscient, omnipotent and cruel protagonists who can solely be blamed for the world’s problems. It also ignores men’s sacrifices, contributions and problems if they do not fit in with the aforementioned narrative. What feminists would accuse the manosphere of, feminism is guilty of itself.

All of that and more create a climate where women and men absorb these messages, as if by osmosis, and adopt respective attitudes of entitlement and guilt. To be clear, that’s entitlement from women that they are owed and guilt from men that they owe women. There is an insidious climate and eluding sentiment that women doing nice things for men or meeting them half way is disempowering for women, whereas men must grovel in penance for their own demographic being such terrible human beings, as falsely confirmed by feminist analysis.

This is how feminism contributes to the creation of Tinder woman.

I agree that people misunderstand a lot about Marxism, but that’s not the case with feminism. Feminism is far less intellectually rigorous. Moreover, the blatant nature of its misrepresentations and falsehoods, reveal its bankruptcy, betray its dishonesty and make clear its nefarious intentions.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

He said that the thread and the Tinder profile inspired him to come to his realisation

He has no argument besides a conclusion then.

People in the RP community have a pretty good idea about what feminism is

I needed a laugh today

Feminism is far less intellectually rigorous

There is a lot of feminist theory, I would say it is about on par with Marxism.

[–]gasparddelanuit0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

He said that the thread and the Tinder profile inspired him to come to his realisation 

He has no argument besides a conclusion then.

Only a conclusion is required for the purpose of a CMV post.

People in the RP community have a pretty good idea about what feminism is 

I needed a laugh today

Feminism is far less intellectually rigorous 

There is a lot of feminist theory, I would say it is about on par with Marxism.

By intellectual rigour, I don’t mean the amount of crap one can pump out. I’m talking about the quality of the rationality and validity behind the arguments. Alan Sokal has already shown the type of nonsense that can achieve publication in these postmodernist times, so volume is of no consequence, as far as validity is concerned. That's esepcially true given the idiocy which has overtaken the universities.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How do nonsensical unreadable text have an affect on people?

[–]gasparddelanuit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

How do nonsensical unreadable text have an affect on people?

When standards are low, obscurantism is the order of the day and advocacy, not knowledge, is the goal, plausible sounding, but false, disordered, dishonest, ill-researched and ill-thought-out publications will be rife.

Many people educated with these publications will go into life and the workforce with these false, disordered, dishonest, ill-researched and ill-thought-out beliefs. Naturally, some will achieve positions of eminence, as university educated people, and have a profound effect on the protocols and policies adopted by wider society, as members of the agenda setting community. What's more, they'll be convinced that they know what they are talking about, given the affirmation such beliefs receive from what they imagine to be credible and legitimate sources. That's how this works.

This is how nonsense gets disseminated rapidly and endures, especially via channels that have the widest reach, such as journalism and the media generally. Gender studies graduates make a B line for these industries for good reason.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

the prolife movement is responsible for single moms, not feminism. feminism wanted women to get abortions and birth control and stop beign burdened with children

[–]gasparddelanuit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

the prolife movement is responsible for single moms, not feminism. feminism wanted women to get abortions and birth control and stop beign burdened with children

The original post is about women’s entitled attitudes and demanding behaviour, not single mothers.

In any case, feminism helps sustain single mothers by promoting their funding via state apparatus and promoting preferential treatment for women when it comes to custodial rights in the event of divorce, not to mention the more general promotion of gynocentric interests that has men fleeing committed relationships with women.

[–]Pickssone0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Prior to simple and easy abortion access what was the rate of single motherhood

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

miniscule, but the prolife movement encourages hoards of dumb white holes to have their babies. they created the "heroic single mother", not "feminism". they also created the "deadbeat dad" (well tradcons did) when the push to end welfare and standardize and enforce CS on never married men arose in the 90s, which also finally encouraged single moms

[–]Pickssone0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

So looking at divorce rates pre 1950s

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

there was a massive divorce spike after WW2 which is what led to the barely contested, barely controversial push for "no fault divorce" to succeed. divorcees are not "single moms"

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think it's illustrative that you brought this terminology unprompted to the table instead of "asking" or "saying":

Then when women start making demands about what they want, another group of men will start complaining about it and being frustrated.

There is a massive difference between asking for or stating what you want vs demanding it.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What is the “massive” difference?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The difference is that when you say what you want it's not an imperative. It demonstrates a measure good faith and negotiability.

Demanding someone do x is an imperative and sets up a relationship of orderer and ordered.

edit for example: Think about the difference you'd feel between someone walking up to you and asking or stating they want to take you out sometime or whatever vs. demanding that you go.

[–]Butt_Man_690 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think a more accurate equivalent would be women constantly saying that “men need to be taught not to rape.” I’ve heard this from a few and also my “male feminist” friend who is very unhappy. I’m pretty sure I don’t need to be taught not to rape by anyone. The culture itself doesn’t teach rape to begin with. The real issue is women wanting to expand their issues while minimizing others’ issues that seem counter to them.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

From reading the biography of a Tinder profile you found on a subreddit dedicated to cherry picking out specific types of women, you made the conclusion that women are taught from a young age to be demanding?

No, it was inspired by it. I observed this myself and from other people's experiences long time ago.

Feminism is a lot like Marxism

I agree totally. Both of these beliefs are wrong on multiple levels.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree totally. Both of these beliefs are wrong on multiple levels.

You did not read my entire comment. I guess there is no changing your view here, have fun with your awful post.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are taught from a young age to be demanding.

Women are taught they deserve everything nice and good, because they are girls and it is men's job to give them what they want.

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman25 points26 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

This is not true where I come from. Kind of the opposite in fact. As a girl I was taught to bend over backwards for others and not to be demanding. Their comfort was more important than mine. And it was unseemly for girls to be demanding of anyone - you were labeled ‘difficult’ and maybe a bitch (as you got older) for being a demanding female - while boys seemed to be encouraged to push the boundaries and be demanding.

I grew up seeing my mother and my aunts and friends mothers all do the vast majority of the housework and also work themselves. The husbands always seemed to be getting more out of the relationship to me. They’d be sitting outside drinking beer, while the women were inside cooking and supervising kids. This is still true in many relationships I see now and also in my own experience - men generally don’t do as much cooking and housework and don’t work longer hours than women. Sometimes they do bring in more money though and some seem to think that means they don’t have to do so much for their wife/gf - even though her hours are as long and she does the lion’s share of the cooking and cleaning. I know a couple where the woman earns considerably more, but still does all the cooking (even cooking him meat though she’s a vegetarian) while he mostly plays video games when he’s not at his job and keeps to himself. But she absolutely adores him regardless as he supports her in everything she wants to do and their personalities gel perfectly. He just does what he’s told, but he’s fortunate she demands very little and looks after him extremely well.

tl;dr: IME the women tend to do more in their relationships and also are more thoughtful about being fulfilling partners. To me it’s the fact that many women are starting to get fed up with that, that contributes greatly to women staying single or kicking men to the curb when they don’t appear to be pulling their weight. My mother’s generation was taught to put up with all that and be a good wife no matter how lopsided it seemed. Not so anymore. Maybe Gen Y females are too entitled though - I can’t speak to that.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Where is "where you come from"?

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

New Zealand

[–]Firtox 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Haha I live in NZ. NZ has statistically the highest N count women in the world. There's a fucking documentary of NZ cock carousel riders. I went to this acting glass and the feminist "women" there found the startement men approach women more than women approach men outrageous enough to shout me down. I was siting with my GF and one of them said that I've got a hot girlfriend and maybe they should listen to me.

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This has nothing to do with the topic.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It was still an amusing read, though.

[–]Just_trixia 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I feel like ur not white. I feel exactly the same, thats why it a shocker how western women are so shit im so lucky i was born in my country bc if i didnt i wouldnt be able to appreciate small things.

[–]apube5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I've seen this exact scenario and I've lived in the Midwest most of my life. Verrrry white.

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

See, if a woman doesn’t do most of the housework and cooking and cleaning while making most of the money, she’s called a shit western woman. Men take take take, and women give until they bleed.

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

This is my experience for sure. In NZ growing up you generally looked at women who didn’t do all that as lazy. I don’t think much has changed, except household chores are a little more equally divided - but women still do most of it. I think because we grew up like that it would be hard to let that go too - it’s not only that men don’t offer, it’s that many women also don’t demand it or are not happy with the way a man does things (which is the case for me - I do it best, so I tend to take it all on unless I am really exhausted and can ignore a half-assed job...!)

[–]Firtox 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Men also earn a lot more.

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

How does that impact the amount of work they do at home or the amount of thoughtfulness they bring to a relationship? Earning more doesn’t necessarily equal working harder or longer hours...

[–]concacanca-1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Oh please. Most of us are in equal relationships.

How would you even know how things are as you arent married?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Most of the people I know are married, work the same hours as their husband, and still do 80% of the housework.

[–]Firtox 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Women are more likely to sacrifice higher $ for other things.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes but if you’re both working 40 hours a week, 8 to 5, with a 1 hour commute both ways, you have to be a massive asshole of a husband to say “you make less money than me therefore you deserve to do more housework”. I understand that many men have this POV, but I consider it to be pretty shitty.

[–]Firtox 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Statisrically women work far fewer hours than men. In single breadwinner homes the average for women is 35 according to one study whilst the average for the single male breadwinner is 51.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This isn’t about statistics though. The fact is that multiple men here have insisted that whoever makes less should do more housework, even if they work longer hours. When I said “so you would make your wife cook and clean after a 60 hour workweek while you work only 40 hours, because she makes $50k a year and you make $80k?” The response was “she should have gotten a better job and studied something better in school”.

[–]concacanca0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Women over report their housework, same as men. At the end of the day most healthy relationships involve both parties doing an equal share of contribution.

Nice downvotes btw.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes but if you’re both working 40 hours a week, 8 to 5, with a 1 hour commute both ways, you have to be a massive asshole of a husband to say “you make less money than me therefore you deserve to do more housework”. I understand that many men have this POV, but I consider it to be pretty shitty.

[–]concacanca0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You are arguing against a point I didn't make. Additionally, I think you are taking testimony from a group of people without getting the corresponding male pov. If you get a group of women together and start moaning about housework I guarantee you that they will all start saying how much more they do than their SO's. I doubt I live in such a tiny bubble that its an anomaly when I say that I visit a lot of different homes and the only ones that involve a woman heavy amount of housework also involve a couple over 60 years of age.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Who said they complain?

[–]concacanca0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

There have been a flurry of recent posts that amount to, or have been taken over by, a lot of women complaining about housework.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Copied and pasted but a sentiment I have seen multiple times

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I’m white - from New Zealand, of Irish and Italian extraction. This is just how I experienced things growing up and I saw the majority of girls my age (born in the mid 80s) experiencing the same thing.

[–]ContrasexualWomanPurple and Polyamourous WGTOW23 points24 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

CMV: Since youth, women are taught to demand and men are taught to give. That's where the most relationship problems come from.

You probably haven't met a woman raised in a very religious/tradcon household then. Maybe you're right, maybe Feminism is partly to blame, because there was incredibly little Feminism involved in my upbringing and I don't "demand" anything from my relationships other than respect and love as a human being.

I was raised Roman Catholic by a stepfather and mother who very much believed not only in traditional gender roles, but also that women were inferior. Now, that doesn't mean he beat my mom, half-sisters, or myself. Neither did he tell us we were worthless or couldn't play outside or other shit immediately noticeable as abuse. But I was told that femininity was supposed to be my path since I'm female, and femininity is all about being humble, soft spoken, undemanding, pretty, bearing children, and one day being a wife and mother. To always smile because negative emotions like anger and sadness are unbecoming. To not run or raise your voice because that calls attention to you. To be very careful of what you eat, because the best body type for a woman is underweight. Don't argue with your elders or husband even if you are right, because it causes strife... instead, just know you're correct but stay quiet. God made Adam first and Eve second, so women are naturally second place in all things. My fantastic grades, the awards for my artwork, being mentioned in the newspaper for my science fair project... those were good, but unnecessary for girl children to have. Even better, from kindergarten til 9th grade I went to a Catholic private school where this type of thought was encouraged. Give your husband sex, ego stroking, children, a clean home, your femininity, your time, your life... just not your opinions or flaws.

Do you know what it's like being a tomboy in that kind of environment? It's miserable, depressive, stifling, and made me seriously entertain the idea of suicide of this is what my life was going to consist of. Thank goodness for my maternal grandparents, who I got to visit regularly. They were incredibly against the type of upbringing I was receiving and showed me through their lifestyle that it's possible to be egalitarian, to have a partner who loves you for you, flaws and all, not because you're a perfect doll without any negatives.

I'm not a Feminist, but I'm also very much not a tradcon, nor am I a theist anymore. This idea of "from the very young age they are taught to demand stuff from men and almost never taught to give something in return" is laughable to women like me. Idk, maybe you've just never met any of us, but I assure you we are out there. It is likely that most who remain in that lifestyle are already married at a young age, so perhaps it doesn't matter to you because they'll never be yours to date. But yeah...at the risk of sounding like a cliché, not all little girls are taught to demand.

[–]randomcarrotaf4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

While i agree that everything else your parents raised you with is extremely stupid and disgusting, there is one sentence that is actually important (not for women bc of a behaviour thing ofc, its important for everyone). It is to sometimes be quiet although you know you are right and others are wrong. My grandma always said "your thoughts are free" and my grandpa always said "as long as you need validation or as long as you need to tell others they are wrong you dont have the confidence to be right by yourself". Back then i did not understand how right he was, but i understand now. It made me reasonable, it made me rely on purely my own logic and it made me confident enough to know that if i focus on myself and if i fight for something and think about it myself independantly i can acchieve everything.

[–]ContrasexualWomanPurple and Polyamourous WGTOW5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree to a point.

If it's simply an opinion with no effect on anyone else, then sure, I'll just shrug and let they believe what they want. But if it's something they say/do that involves me and my mental or emotional health? You bet your ass I'm going to speak up if they're wrong.

[–]randomcarrotaf0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes then you should speak up. Being confident about your point and accepting different opinions doesnt mean you cant fight for yourself and who you are.

[–]ContrasexualWomanPurple and Polyamourous WGTOW1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly this.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

You probably haven't met a woman raised in a very religious/tradcon household then.

Absolutely not. Neither I would like such a woman by my side.

[–]aznphenix5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

And you don't think that shapes your view of women? Most women are at least shallowly religious in the US.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Where I come from, it's similar. Unless you do not count reading astrology articles.

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't see what astrology has anything to do with this.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Religious people tend to believe other superstitions too.

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I still don't see why that's related.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ask the person who brought that up.

[–]aznphenix3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

YOU brought up astrology. I'm asking how that's related to me asking how you not dating religious/somewhat traditional people hasn't skewed your perception somewhat. I'm not even religious/traditional, and neither are the vast majority of my friends, and we've all been raised to be good and giving in our relationships ( I guess the unfair thing is, we probably had traditional parents though).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Because I am not into religious people, I think I gave that answer already. I can tolerate "somewhat" religious people, but then again, that's too subjective and all the people can be called "somewhat religious" one way or the other.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you don’t like traditional or modern women?

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lol wel you know my old saying "the only thing TeRPs hate more than modern emancipated feminist women are traditional feminine women" lol

they want men

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not like tradition is understood in US. I am from Europe.

[–]ContrasexualWomanPurple and Polyamourous WGTOW0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. I wouldn't want such a man either.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill10 points11 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Should the girl in your example hide the fact that she's pregnant? Or would you rather she keep herself out of the dating market altogether?

I don't doubt that more people teach women to be assertive and potentially demanding than they used to. However, I think it's just a reaction to long entrenched teachings that women should be silent, agreeable and more or less a commodity for their fathers/husbands. People are so afraid of raising doormats that they instead raise entitled assholes.

It sucks that men have the pressure to pursue and provide. I can empathize with that. It doesn't mean that men give everything and women take everything, though. Women still have the pressure to care for their families to a degree that men don't experience. As other people have pointed out, men are much more likely to divorce sick spouses and leave caring for children and other family members up to their wives. Plus, women overwhelmingly have to work as well.

For instance, my husband was royally pissed that I couldn't blow off work completely when he fell ill and was hospitalized. I worked as little as possible and got FMLA, but that still wasn't enough for him. He expected me to attend to him every moment of the day, and while I wanted to, I couldn't do that and keep my financially necessary job. I managed to spend as much time caring for him as possible, get our employers not to fire us, handled everything with the doctors/hospital/bills and finished the move we were in the middle of by myself. He never apologized for his attitude and fully admits that he wouldn't have been able to handle it (opting instead to enlist my mother) if our roles were reversed.

In short, men are pressured to provide money, women are pressured to provide everything else plus money.

[–]belletaco5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Should the girl in your example hide the fact that she's pregnant? Or would you rather she keep herself out of the dating market altogether?

They'd rather any woman who isn't an 18 year old virgin who loves giving blow jobs and has never even looked at another man be the only ones who dare enter the dating market.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Wrong, your comment applies only to 1 percent of most vocal edgiest incels. Also, nice strawman. Also... 18 year old and pregnant.. and then you jump to the conclusion that men want virgins.. that's a very big leap from a slut to a virgin.

[–]belletaco4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It was a joke bruh

[–]speltspelt3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

she could have had sex once ever. all sex comes with a risk of pregnancy, doesn't say anything about her attitude towards sex if she's pregnant.

[–]mistercheeez-o____O-0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Our value systems have been degraded. I don't understand why people make these vows, if they lack the mental fortitude to live by them.

For the record, it sounds like you did right by the man. He probably couldn't appreciate it, because he was far more resentful about being sick and dependant than he was recognisant of your efforts.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks, that's what I chalked it up to as well. We got over it after awhile and moved on. It's en extreme example, but I thought it fit this discussion.

[–]mistercheeez-o____O-0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for the insight. Cheers.

[–]BirdManBrrrr0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Should the girl in your example hide the fact that she's pregnant? Or would you rather she keep herself out of the dating market altogether?

No, she should not be demanding the world from a potential suitor while adding nothing to the transaction. We could argue she provides negative value, even.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Would you be happier or more attracted to her if she posted some self-deprecating bio about how she'll take any man who will have her?

She's being honest about what she's looking for. Why be outraged about it? Simply putting it out there doesn't mean she'll get it.

[–]jerryskids_Purple Pill Man0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

She has an SMV of zero, she essentially is out of the dating market.

Besides, what's she doing at 18, pregnant, in the dating market? Looking for a provider for her kid essentially ONLY. So she's panicking.

Otherwise where is the man who impregnated her?

Gotta have some compassion, sucks to be her.

Two leading causes of poverty: a child out of wedlock and a lack of a highschool diploma.

I feel sorry for the kid due to his/her mother's irresponsibility and pursuit of pleasure. & the father.. but the mother controls her own legs. Hope the child lucks out some how.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So in your opinion she should accept her lumps and not try? She freely admitted that she is looking for a guy with a good job who will love her and her baby. It's a naive request, but she's not lying about what she wants. Putting it out there doesn't mean she'll get it.

The guy who impregnated her will probably be on the hook for child support. Should've controlled his dick better, I guess.

[–]jerryskids_Purple Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure try, but anyone who falls for a girl with such low SMV is a sucker, or extremely desperate.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

women are always going to see themselves as the more giving, selfless party and men will think the same.

i agree there's a certain breed of low rent single mums who are looking for a saviour, but there's also a lot of hard-working wives who work a full time job, take care of the house and feed their husbands.

in the same vein there's plenty of men who will fall over themselves to rescue a damsel, and plenty of men who take their wives for granted and demand too much from them.

[–]speltspelt3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

these guys think a man taking care of a woman's kid is being incredibly giving, while a woman taking care of a man's kid is grasping and demanding. It's all bs.

[–]Eastuss 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

and feed their husbands.

I go hunt wild mcdonald mcnuggets everyday for my wife.

Though I like your reasonable opinion, I think men's value is generally depreciated. Bringing in more money is just seen as "you being luckier therefore you must share" instead of "your time being worthier".

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

I go hunt wild mcdonald mcnuggets everyday for my wife.

Don't do that she'll die young

My wife works full time but brings in half the money I bring. It's never taken into account in our relationship somehow

So you guys share the chores equally? Is that a problem if you're working similar hours?

My husband and I make about the same, but I work far fewer hours than him so naturally I take care of the household. Because our financial contribution is equal, should I then hold off on half the chores and expect him to do them?

No of course not. Because we're a team and I'd rather the chores just get done so we can both enjoy our free time.

Also apparently I'm lucky to be born a man and to have greater strength, so it's not an added value to do all the strong work when she would do it 3 times more slowly.

Yep, it would take me forever to change the spark plugs on the car, so hubby does that. It would take him forever to iron his work shirts so I do that. Simple stuff really...

People want men and women to be equal, unless this is about men's value then it is just privileges they should share and shut the fuck up.

Who is "people"? I hope you're not implying that I'm chasing equality because you'd be way off the mark.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ2 points3 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Don't do that she'll die young

I want to eat more veggies but she doesn't. So usually instead of having her eat just bread and cheeses I go fetch some food... I don't know how to cook besides the basics and I have a huge disability that makes me not motivated to ever learn how to make food for other people. I can just eat cooked veggies and meat but she needs things more spicy, more elaborated...

She doesn't seem to suffer from lack of soluble fibbers like I do =__= she's thin and I'm chubby. There is no justice.

So you guys share the chores equally? Is that a problem if you're working similar hours?

Full context: I have sightly more working hours and travelling hours, I earn twice what she earns. We were even on chores and were splitting bills 50/50 until we had a baby. Then she became more needy on cleanliness (which I became to for what's directly affecting the baby), and we started splitting bills proportionate, because she sacrificed career time for the baby and her incomes were unstable. In case of problem she will be the one "sacrificing" her job for the baby, and I provide financial stability. I think that is fair. She does sightly more baby related chores too but that's because I have longer "absent hours" within the day, I try to do as much as possible on that aspect. All in all we try to do the chores we like and we're often complementary on that regard.

She does more chores than me but a lot of this is really her being needy and demanding on cleanliness, and her dirtying things very fast... In the end I do more chores than I would do alone, and it's mainly because of her exigences. I don't think I impose anything on her and I don't find it really fair to have things imposed on me as a result. A good portion of the time she spends in chore is IMO waste of time and very inefficient, but she's stressed if she doesn't do these... So whatever... She also is kind of severe, there are some chores I gave up because apparently I never do these right... :(

I think it's not really fair to expect someone to do more chores because you earn more, but at the same time I don't find it fair to expect someone to do equal chores if they're earning more than you and you benefit from it...

Yep, it would take me forever to change the spark plugs on the car, so hubby does that. It would take him forever to iron his work shirts so I do that. Simple stuff really...

Being complementary helps a lot, I am just sad it is almost never valuable in her eyes.

Who is "people"? I hope you're not implying that I'm chasing equality because you'd be way off the mark.

Some people, in general, not you in particular.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I don't understand this heavily transactional way of doing things. If she's treating you like garbage you need to stand up for yourself and pull her into line.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

She doesn't treat me like garbage, but when she sees feminist garbage like this she's like "so true!", she'll complain here and there that she does most of the chores, I mostly ignore all these, and other days she'll tell me it's ok because I do X and Y in exchange... Bah.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

it can get overwhelming sometimes doing all of the chores/household management if you feel unappreciated. not pointing fingers or anything, but do you often thank her for the things she does do?

i could be slaving away all day, but as long as my husband kisses me and says "thanks for dinner, the place looks great" i couldn't care less. it only becomes an issue when you feel like everything you do goes unnoticed. i'm sure you feel the same.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

but do you often thank her for the things she does do?

It's something I'm trying to focus on.

But most of the time I mostly tell her that she doesn't have to do this that often. That she could wait that I have my energy burst and that I do it. We don't have similar rhythm, she does most things before getting in bed during the work week, when I'm just a tired piece of shit. I prefer doing things on weekends, at my pace, and when she's not here. It's a bit tricky.

It's also a bit difficult to thank her for doing things when all I can think of is my guilt.

it only becomes an issue when you feel like everything you do goes unnoticed.

Work done right looks like nothing has been done at all, sadly. And yes I feel the same.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

And as for work being done right looking like nothing, you're exactly right. You may not notice all things she does without you there.

My husband once mentioned something about how his friend's girlfriend washes the sheets every week and wouldn't that be nice yada yada. I asked him how often he thought our sheets were changed and he said that he last saw them on the clothesline like a month ago, so then? I gently explained that our sheets are washed at least once a week, usually more. He genuinely had no idea 💁

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

How can't he notice? have you two identical sets of sheets? :p

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I get your reasoning, it might be more practical if you did the housework when you both were free. Speaking for myself though, I would much rather my husband came in with a big smile and a genuine thank you than picking up half the housework. Perhaps if you gave that a shot and your wife felt more appreciated then she'd be in a better mood and lay off with the nagging. Just a thought :)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Speaking for myself though, I would much rather my husband came in with a big smile and a genuine thank you than picking up half the housework.

YES. I always say this. I swear 99% of the time when women complain about not having "help" around the house, what they really mean is what they do around the house isn't appreciated. Acknowledgment and a thank you can do wonders.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'll put more efforts in this, thanks. Insecurities usually make people crappy...

[–]Taipanshimshonhere for the downvotes-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would say if you add to her lifestyle with your salary, she should want to add to your life style in other ways.

but I have seen far more women do the taking than the giving in that regard

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

women are always going to see themselves as the more giving, selfless party and men will think the same.

Seeing themselves as giving and actually being one isn't the same.

And for that matter I agree with the OP. Women are indeed conditioned to be demanding as fuck, and it's worse in our time than it has been in the past.

On the one hand, when young they're in the situation of being in demand and having men cater to their whims, and on the other, they're also told that they're downtrodden and oppressed and every desire they have is legitimate and nobody (and especially not men) should be able to keep it from them.

That combination makes for shitty people.

[–]storffish9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

On the one hand, when young they're in the situation of being in demand and having men cater to their whims, and on the other, they're also told that they're downtrodden and oppressed and every desire they have is legitimate and nobody (and especially not men) should be able to keep it from them.

pretty sure this exclusively applies to middle class+ white girls, because that sounds like some vanity degree Instagram sob story shit. the message I saw girls getting growing up was "you better work hard to keep a man" whereas boys were told "find you a wife that takes care of you." my mom worked her ass off her whole life and still barely got by, it was expected.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Read /u/littleknownfacts' comment, she gets it right. Men don't appreciate women's style of giving and women don't appreciate men's style.

[–]wracky272RPG's are fun3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Attractive women actually experience a period of their life where they can be as demanding as they want, and guys will line up for them. The issues come up when she carries those attitudes from her twenties into her 30's, 40's, and beyond, and then blaming the world for her pussy pass getting denied.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The issues come up when she carries those attitudes from her twenties into her 30's, 40's, and beyond, and then blaming the world for her pussy pass getting denied.

Funny, even as a man I was a bit hurt by your words. Well said, young women have this privilege of youthful looks and the fact that most men are thirsty and would do anything for her. Then when she hits 30 and is about to settle down (or maybe settled down for her 2nd or 3rd time), suddenly her peers and previous orbiters lose interest in her.. she wonders why is that? Very few women realize what mistakes they did. Most of them rationalize it as they go and still expect the same attitude from men and absurdly enough, some of those women even manage to get what they want because there is unlimited supply of thirsty betas waiting in the line to save the girl.

Man's value goes up with age as long as he plays his cards right. Woman's value goes down no matter what she does. She can only slow it down a bit compared to other women but rarely do women have so much passion and power of will to not get fat in their 30s.

[–]reluctantly_red0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Seeing themselves as giving and actually being one isn't the same.

This!!! You wouldn't believe how many times I've had to listen to women prattle on and on about how caring and giving they are. But when opportunities arises to put their words into action IRL few actually do.

[–]theaccidentist6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I don't know about that. What makes a woman a 'good wife' traditionally is a whole lot of giving.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes, traditionally. But in our modern society wives give very very little if at all.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

depends which wives you're talking to. all the women i know are very giving toward their husbands.

[–]BirdManBrrrr1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

And all the wives I know (including my own) spend their time fingerfucking their phones about how shitty their husbands are.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My husband isn't shitty and I don't do this. Hmm....

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

fingerfucking their phones

I like this expression.

[–]MuchLanguage6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is not true. I have been taught to do a lot for men while my brother was coddled. I was basically made to do everything and expected to do everything because I'm a girl/woman.

[–]RockinSocksII25F poiple INTP - Not single, Eastuss needs to know this6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Funny.

I was always told that to be a good wife, I needed to make my husband happy regardless of how I felt.

This couldn't just be a case of self-entitled person being a self-entitled person, could it?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is a relatively broad and vague statement - do you have any examples of how this supposed "Demand"-culture is institutionalized?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It was never my claim, but let's talk about this: single mothers are supported by the government. Check.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's because the child they've given birth to has rights. The support isn't for the woman.

And how would this relate to the "demand" mindset? Do women grow up, learn that single mothers collect welfare, and then conclude "Well I guess this means every relationship with men should be characterized by me making demands! Sounds good!"

[–]storffish6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

this is a very myopic perspective... you're looking at a very small but visible group of undesireable, delusional women through the lens of reddit which is a nerdy male-dominated site. what a bitch writes as her "requirements" on tinder has no bearing on who will hit her up and very little bearing on who she will choose to see and see again. she can stomp her feet and "demand" all she wants, but she's almost certainly not going to get it.

I mean think about it: what are guys on tinder looking for first and foremost? sex. whether that leads to a relationship later on is neither here nor there, we log into tinder when we're horny or lonely. if I see a chick who's acceptable looking I'm going to swipe right, I couldn't care less if her bio says she wants a 6'20" billionaire chef because I'm just trying my luck. if she doesn't swipe right on my profile it's no skin off my back there are literally thousands of other bints on this app.

if she does and we match guess what? I'm still just trying to get it in, I still don't care what she "demands" of me. the ball's in her court and a lot of the time she'll choose to fuck me anyway. she knows in her lizard brain that all the girl power in the world isn't going to summon her dream man into being so she takes what she can get just like everybody else. if she wants a relationship she'll figure out right quick that it involves a lot of give and take or she'll end up alone.

my working theory is that posting crazy tinder requirements is a peacocking strategy. "I can require all these things because I'm desireable." I've known those chicks personally, most of them ain't shit to write home about and they end up with guys that ain't shit to write home about either. I have yet to see a Cinderella story of a chick who demanded a prince charming who would wait on her hand over foot and got one. it just doesn't happen, not least because the chicks making those demands for the most part are shitty and low class themselves. the women who aren't are happily in relationships not posting sob stories on the internet, as far as reddit is concerned they're invisible.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So you picked a dumbass pregnant 18 year old kid on Tinder as your "evidence" to decide women are taught to demand and not give so you can just write AWALT blah blah because of feminism.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you know the definition of "inspiration"?

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was never actually taught this. I thought most men naturally tried to give because they believe that it's the best way to get sex from a woman. I think men would naturally try to act like this even without any kind of teaching. Men are just thirstier for sex than women and "giving" is a natural way to try to get it.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men are natural providers, yes, but somehow in our modern culture men are expected to give and do not demand anything in return for that.

[–]pinkgoldrose 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

My honest opinion is the opposite. Since youth, men are taught to demand and women are taught to give. That's why men are more entitled, confident, self-centered, pretentious. Women are more subservient, selfless, generous, self-sacrificing. You'll find more men doing business and more women being nurses.

Women do the giving and men do the taking when it comes to sex too. We grow up hearing nothing but "nice girls give blow jobs", "dump her if she doesn't put out", "you must sleep with your man every day". Men don't have to do anything because women are so concerned with being good girlfriends.

If anything, the men who fail to get women are the men who failed to integrate how to do the taking. Women are there just waiting to give to someone, but obviously they will more easily give to a taker than to another giver. How would two givers even connect?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's why men are more entitled, confident, self-centered, aggressive. Women are more subservient, selfless, generous, self-sacrificing.

This is hilarious. You're like a female MGTOW.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which makes OP, and all those who agree with him, MGTOWs.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (30 children) | Copy Link

Naaah, women " give" only when they are in sexual situations.

For the most part, I think that is as the OP said

[–]swaghetti__yolognese12 points13 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Explain then why men are more likely to leave an ill partner. Why men are more likely (of all races) to commit acts of violence (against both women and other men) why men do not take part in caregiving (both paid and unpaid)

Men like to sit at home and play their vidya after work. Women are required to not only work, but then ALSO take up the unpaid work around the house.

Sure, men will fix the drain, or tinker with the car engine/transmission, things that are a 1 off. Maybe you check the mail or throw out the garbage once you've been nagged enough. But, the day to day boring mundane tasks that no-one will ever commend you for or even think exists? Like the tasks of keeping a home, budgeting, coupon clipping, laundry, cooking, dr/vet appointments, vacuuming, the social calender of the family and being expected to take time off when a child is sick? Women do those things.

Im not saying you personally dont do them, but we operate by generalities here. And in general? Men take, women give.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are required to not only work, but then ALSO take up the unpaid work around the house.

They're not required to do housework any more than men are.

If a woman is unhappy she has to do what she feels more than her fair share nothing is stopping her telling her man off or finding a new one, no one is enforcing any "requirement."

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Explain then why men are more likely to leave an ill partner. Why men are more likely (of all races) to commit acts of violence (against both women and other men) why men do not take part in caregiving (both paid and unpaid)

This is like saying: "Explain why most prostitutes are women! Gotcha!"

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

we're talking about male and female nature. most prostitutes are women because men will buy sex from them.

more women will hang around to care for their ill partner because...?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

more women will hang around to care for their ill partner because...?

It's an interesting question with many possible answers.

One answer may be that it can be difficult for the man to combine a caregiver role with his professional life. Many women claim that they are expected to care for sick children and stay home instead of going to work. However, the other side of the coin is that this is probably accepted as well. Typically feminine workplaces may very well be much more accommodating and understanding of such a situation, while the expectations of a man at work may be that he keeps on prioritizing his job, and that he isn't any more absent than he already is from the job.

Of course, one could argue that the male should prioritize his partner and not his job. However, one should also remember that the job of a man is much more central to his life than that of a woman. When a man loses his job, his partner is much more likely to leave him than the other way around. What if he stays with and cares for her, and then she leaves him because he loses his job and struggles with isolation and getting back into the workforce after she gets better? Then he's lost everything.

The other reason could be as you say - male and female nature. However, instead of discussing this as if women somehow are willing to sacrifice more, let's discuss it in terms of what men and women prefer. Women prefer to work as caregivers, and overwhelmingly choose such jobs. Men do not. This means that years spent taking care of your sick partner can be seen as deeply meaningful to a woman - something that gives her life purpose. For a man, however, this may grow into a life that is empty and void of meaning.

Every argument taken into account - I don't think it's morally right to leave your partner due to sickness.

However, I must admit that If I had a partner who became disabled or chronically ill, I have a very hard time imagining I'd stay with her. It's a terrible thing to say, but it's the truth. I can't imagine how our life together would be happy or meaningful for any of us.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure all of those things play a role, but it is overwhelmingly because women are natural caregivers. It's in our nature and yes it probably gives us more satisfaction than it would give a man.

When my dad fell ill I was his primary carer. I took weeks off work to look after him, organise his affairs, book his appointments. There was never any question that this role would ever fall on my brother who happens to work a far less demanding and time consuming job than me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

When my dad fell ill I was his primary carer. I took weeks off work to look after him, organise his affairs, book his appointments. There was never any question that this role would ever fall on my brother who happens to work a far less demanding and time consuming job than me.

Interesting. I must ask though - did you discuss this at all, or did you just assume this responsibility by yourself?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I assumed the responsibility when my dad listed me as his primary contact. I would have picked it up anyway. I did ask my brother to step in a few times when I had important work things or was getting burnt out, but he always had something else that was more important to him. He's a good guy, it's just not in his nature to be a carer.

[–]swaghetti__yolognese0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh, so men pay for sex? 🤔 is it maybe because all men just think of women as sex dispensers?

Does that mean that in addition to being slim, attractive and working 40 hours a week, women are now REQUIRed( in the same way that prison men are) to offer up their body?

Hmm , 😉

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

...what?

[–]concacanca0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I see this opinion a lot on this sub and I am compelled to ask one question:

Do you actually know any men?

[–]pinkgoldrose 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Maybe it's mostly sex, but if it's so easy for women to go online and find a man than it is for men to go online and find a woman, it's more argument in favor of the giver-taker dynamic. If men had something to offer, they would find takers. Women apparently do have something to offer if they get takers.

But I don't think it's just sex because women are more likely to support their partner's agenda than vice versa. Married women report that their husband is the biggest cause of stress above the children. Stuff like that.

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd7 points8 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

if it's so easy for women to go online and find a man than it is for men to go online and find a woman, it's more argument in favor of the giver-taker dynamic. If men had something to offer, they would find takers. Women apparently do have something to offer if they get takers.

Men are thirsty, men will fuck anything, and women are much less likely to seek out casual sex so there's a big imbalance in the supply/demand.

Occam's razor favours that explanation by miles.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

Men are thirsty cause is so fucking rare to have sex. If women do sex in the same proportion, then they will be thirsty like us. But they, instead, can easily have sex cause they are the gatekeeper of sex and love, so they have choice. We don't.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

women don't want random sex in the same way men do

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't want sex with random women either. I would love to have sex with only one woman my entire life and if I feel that I lack some novelty I can always turn on some porn and masturbate to my fetishes if they are too extreme for a woman to provide.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

i don 't know if it is true, but what i know is that women can easily find it ,and can easily find a good relationship without effort.

So, logically , women take , man MUST give to be chosen.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Yes women can easily find casual sex with someone they're not crazy about. This means nothing to a woman. It's something only men desire.

Finding a good, quality man for a LTR and eventually marriage is much harder. Women are not the 'gatekeepers of love', that's men.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

now i am curious , wha's make a man a good quality man for a relationship?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Attractive, masculine, confident, smart, financially stable, emotionally stable, would make a good father, caring without being wimp, loyal, etc, etc.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women are not the 'gatekeepers of love's, that's men.

and that's logically impossible for an easy reason: if man are gatekeepers of love , why they struggle to get in a relationship? The immediate answer is : Only chad are gatekeepers of love ,cause women that are superior here , give chad all the power. But for all the others males, is effort or nothing . And for the most part , is nothing, especially if you are searching for a ltr. The 80% of men is nothing in female eyes.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes women can easily find casual sex with someone they're not crazy about.

Actually, they can even relatively easily find sex with someone they are crazy about if they're willing to swipe their way through tinder or use some similar platform.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I meant 'crazy about' in the sense of actually knowing them and crushing on them and wanting to have something long term with them. I wasn't really thinking about hot strangers on tinder.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It don't need even a platform, really

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women apparently do have something to offer if they get takers.

yeah, pussy

[–]MercedesBenzoAMGbringing percocets molly percocet back to ppd1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If anything, the men who fail to get women are the men who failed to integrate how to do the taking. Women are there just waiting to give to someone, but obviously they will more easily give to a taker than to another giver. How would two givers even connect?

If this was true, wouldn't the Nice Guys™ be swimming in pussy? After all the whole reason they're ridiculed is because they demand women act the way they like in exchange for them being "nice." That's surely "doing the taking"?

[–]speltspelt1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

needy guys are takers too.

[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

100% my experience. I got lucky and married a man who leans more on the “giver” side pretty young.

[–]ReluctantSlimeball-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You must be around a hundred years old,

[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie-1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Women are more subservient, selfless, generous, self-sacrificing.

I think they FEEL that way. Givers don't mean your the good guy and the takers are bad guys.

How would two givers even connect?

They don't connect. They don't even see what the other does for them. My wife's friend made it a point to tell my wife about how one of her long time bfs DIDN'T change her daughters diapers at all, ever and how grateful my wife should be about me taking half the diaper work for our three kids.

This was like a revelation to my wife. She would also describe herself as a giver...

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think they FEEL that way. Givers don't mean your the good guy and the takers are bad guys.

In my experience, people will usually be very verbal about traits they don't have at all. Actual "Givers" simply give because it's who they are. When people proclaim themselves to be selfless, generous and giving, it's because they have an extremely transactional view of this. They remember every single time they do something that isn't 100% only for their own benefit and think to themselves "Wow, I made a sacrifice.". And then they use this against others when they don't get what they want.

No person who is a true giver will ever say something like "All I do is give, and I receive nothing back!".

[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When people proclaim themselves to be selfless, generous and giving, it's because they have an extremely transactional view of this.

Lol, yeah. A victim. Nice way of saying it.

[–]speltspelt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

that's doing half that work, you don't start being a giver until you're doing /more/ than your fair share.

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Quite the other way around for me until I put my feet on the ground. I was ready and schooled and willing to bend backwards and jump trough every hoop for a man. And even for a man that I wasn't really attracted to.

This isn't about being a giver or a taker - you're slightly off your angle by being either. Don't be an arse, and be assertive enough - at least one person in the relationship like that and all shall be well (well - even when you have to break up the relationship, since it becomes apparent the people in it aren't compatible).

[–]Uncommon_Sense_123 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you not realize there is a whole other world outside of BP, PP and RP.

Your source is a forum that goes though female dating profiles and only picks the ones that backup the preconceived idea of entitlement and then posts those prefiltered posts as proof of AWALT.

Sort of like going to a popular bar on a Friday night and saying, everyone drinks while deliberately ignoring the vast majority who are not at the bar.

It's all silly at some point.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My source is real world, not that subreddit. Try again.

[–]1UPZ_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really hate when I hear some women say "I deserve better" or "I dont deserve this"

What exactly do you deserve? happiness?, complete satisfaction?

Because fuck, men would love that too

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's just the nature of the game. Pussy is more valuable than dick, so women have a stronger bargaining position. It would almost be foolish of them to not demand more in a relationship, because they can afford to.

It's aggravating at times being in an LTR with a woman and noticing how they always want a lot, comparatively speaking. But again, that's just the rules of the game. Can't fault parents for being logical and teaching their kids to use the advantages they got. Either work on her and keep her in check, or leave her, that's all you can do.

[–]speltspelt0 points1 point  (23 children) | Copy Link

she's much more of a giver than her sperm donor guy. women like this only exist -because- men are takers on average.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (22 children) | Copy Link

Not a single woman were able to write down at least 3 things that women give to a man. 1 thing is sex, that's understandable, but also debatable too.

[–]speltspelt1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

social calendar and logistics stuff, a greater burden of house and kid related work, being more willing to move for the guy's job, ending up on the hook for taking care of his parents... some combination of those are usual. Plenty of women bring more money or a house into relationships these days too.

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (20 children) | Copy Link

There are many things that women give, but men may not appreciate fully for getting. Clean homes, cooked food on the table, her time and affection, etc. This isn't to say that men don't give, but it's really clear that women do give lots of things to men. Maybe this isn't in your experience but it sure has been in mine.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (19 children) | Copy Link

Clean homes, cooked food on the table, her time and affection, etc.

let's break it down. Clean homes, cooked food - probably if you are married, if you are in LTR, not a single woman done that to me.

Now her time and affection. Well, that's debatable, since men also give their time and affection. You seem to imply that her time is so much more valuable as if she was working 14 hour shifts or something. Clean house - I can do that myself, I love cleaning my house. Also doing dishes. I love it. Cooking food? I am an amateur chef.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Omg, man. Men and women frequently give the same or similar things in relationships. This person wasn't saying that a woman's time and affection are more valuable, just that she gives them to her partner. Women also work and pay bills. I don't know why you are ignoring that.

You can do all those things, sure. However, a woman might do them for you because she cares for you. See how that works? You didn't have to do a thing because your partner cares enough about you and your time/desires to take care of it. If you don't appreciate her care, that's your problem.

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (17 children) | Copy Link

No I'm not saying that it's more valuable - why is 'giving' mean that you also don't get it in return? Is the argument that men don't 'get' anything from women at all, or that they just 'give' more - at which point how do you compare some things?

And man, you've dated some strange women if they haven't even cooked or cleaned for you even once in an LTR. They don't take care of you when you're sick? Get some surprise homemade gifts of food or other crafts?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (16 children) | Copy Link

you've dated some strange women if they haven't even cooked or cleaned for you even once in an LTR. They don't take care of you when you're sick? Get some surprise homemade gifts of food or other crafts?

Nope nope nope. Not a single time. And I am sure many men are in the same boat.

[–]Uncommon_Sense_123 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I would not clean and cook for a guy if I were just dating him.

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Maybe I'm just weird or just haven't had the chance to get burned by this behavior yet.

[–]Uncommon_Sense_123 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Old dating advice, you don't give the milk away for free. In other words, he has no need to marry you if he is getting sex, no further need to marry you if you are doing traditional housewife duties without the benefit of marriage.

This is how you end up with cohabitating women posting "My live in BF says he doesn't want to get married but I do." This may not be you.

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

No mine definitely wants to get married - I'm the one that imposed a minimum age XD

[–]PennnyLameMade a margarita once0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Here’s some older advice: first one is free, the second one will cost you. Giving a man the preview of who you will be as a wife ensures he wants to stay with you. Further, why anyone would date a man who doesn’t share their eventual goal (marriage in this case) is beyond me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

THat's not about it, but what exactly can you offer to a man during dating period then?

[–]Uncommon_Sense_123 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

The best thing you can offer a man, who is also looking for a relationship and not a ONS, is the real you. The "you" that you really are and not the contrived act to fool him. And this applies for men and women because both when dating have a tendency to be a better version of themselves than what they are.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

non-answer. The usual.

[–]jerryskids_Purple Pill Man0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

An 18 year old preggo. Who gives a shit dude she has an SMV of zero. Let her be delusional and have a good laugh. Honestly she's probably just panicking about her situation and therefore demanding.. so you could also simply have some compassion..

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Thread is not about her. Try again to reply to a thread.

[–]jerryskids_Purple Pill Man4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

She's the example cited for a generalized opinion.. being cited as an extreme example. I am shedding light on how her demands are justified because she is panicking.. not 'raised to demand'.

So wtf are you talking about?

Stop looking for confirmation bias to reinforce your cynical opinion on women. All you're doing is moving further away from them by doing so.

Guy doesn't even show compassion for a little girl whose pregnant but instead jumps to a frame about how he's a victim of women's high standards.. that's totally biased.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Everybody seem to get the point just fine.

[–]DXBrigade0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I disagree. Both men and women give and take in a relationship. Women are more exigeant and vocal about what they want from a man. Men are less picky about what they want from their partner, though they have their standards too. That said, men tend to overlook what their female partner offer them and are a bit ungrateful. You say men have to give their "time, love, ressources, care and security, everything they have" ... well so do women.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

•Maintaining a basic level of personal grooming. •Buying furniture (not for themselves or any relative status, this is done purely out of the selfless love of their hearts, dontcha know)

When pressed, these were the specific examples of contributions women regularly make to relationships.

OP didn’t convince me but the women responding sure as heck did.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

so personal grooming. PERSONAL GROOMING is their best example of doing stuff for somebody else? Yeah, I think this thread was a good example of how useless some women are that they can't even come up with examples.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s becoming increasingly undeniable that women have nothing but gendered entitlements and men nothing but gendered obligations, it’s not even funny. What’s refreshing is the extent to which men are finally waking the fuck up to this.

The shrill cry of “patriarchal oppression” and other scatterbrained female grievances are mere projections of women’s bullshit onto men. I think at some level (perhaps subconscious) women are aware that society is based on a one way street of male exploitation and that women are privileged by it, it’s an awareness which imbues them with neuroticism and insecurity, which they then hold men responsible for (since men are held fully responsible for everything, regardless of any corresponding authority.)

The master feared her beast of burden and lashed at it incessantly, hoping to keep it properly subjugated. In so doing she woke it up to it’s strife.

These past few weeks there’s been a noticeable change in men, and the rate of change has been increasing exponentially.

I’ve been on and off on a bar hop today and holy fucking shit, the amount of men I talked to who are ready and willing to talk openly about female privilege, male exploitation, hypergamy, gynocentrism - it’s fucking astounding. We might not ascribe to the same nomenclature but we know the score.

For the better part of my life I felt like I was alone in my awareness of gynocentrism. If I has spoke openly of female bullshit ten years ago I’d have had my ass kicked. Five years ago I would have been laughed out of there for daring to criticize teh wimmins. Today?

Things are changing dramatically and men are waking up to their gendered bondage like never before and they are not fucking pleased.

Shits about to get real ugly.

Edit - spelling

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

the amount of men I talked to who are ready and willing to talk openly about female privilege, male exploitation, hypergamy, gynocentrism - it’s fucking astounding.

I noticed it too for a while. But most of my friends (men) just do their thing and rarely talk about chasing women. We rarely even speak about them. Who gives a fuck, I suspect most of them are just ok to have sex and forget about it. Who needs relationships these days. Even I think I will switch back to being a bachelor in couple of years.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I never demanded anything from a man that I didn't possess myself.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You also pity-dated guys you weren't attracted to because you thought you were supposed to look on the inside.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It wasn't pity dating. It was under the expectation that I would grow to find them more attractive as popular culture told me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

You're mistaking a biological phenomenon, present in many animal species, for a cultural one. Women do not need to be taught how to be selective. Go outside and look at how animals behave.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I had in mind demands, not being selective biologically. Actual demands, like he has to make 6 figures, know how to cook, greet me with a coffee every morning and take care of my 3 bastard children. These are demands, not "selections". Of course all people are selective in their choices, and most people have at least some demands, but the lower the quality woman is, the bigger demands there are. I experienced it myself too many times.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Actual demands, like he has to make 6 figures, know how to cook, greet me with a coffee every morning and take care of my 3 bastard children.

It's no difference from demands females in other species have? "He has to sing loud" "He has to look smashing" "He has to build something beautiful for me" Even fish! Women are hard-wired to be selective like this so men shouldn't take it personally. You have a point though that women with low self-esteem will probably prop their self-image up by being demanding. Then again, if they're low-quality, nothing of value is lost.

What I think is really your frustration is that women don't understand and appreciate the work men need to put into courtship. This is expressed in lack of empathy, cruel rejections and in claims of harassment. I don't know what causes this, or how to solve this, though. I've heard and suspect that it's perhaps due to our removal from nature, and that there's a big difference between country and city girls, but I don't know really.

[–]PrieneNon-Red Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Since youth the women you've met were taught to demand. To the rest of the world, most women were taught to not have that many expectations because most can't marry Ryan Gosling and have to contend with an ''average'' man who feels he's entitled to more than he can get.

It's the idea that women should demand (from relationships) and men should give (provide) for relationships. That's why majority of women do not comprehend how entitled their views are,

Men provide love, companionship, good hard dick, protection and attention and validation, in relationships. If women are expecting a man to provide money or social status that man either has nothing to offer but money, or she's a gold-digger. None of those are scenarios I'd care to be in.

why majority of women do not comprehend how entitled their views are, since from the very young age they are taught to demand stuff fr

So you're saying that the majority of the people on TRP are women pretending to be men? Now I'm shocked.

On contrary, men are taught only to give, give their time, love, resources, care and security, everything they have if they want to find a "good wife".

Where are these wonderful, self-sacrificing men who are giving away their youth and money to women like they just founded a new religion? I'm asking because the millions of women who got fucked over by men are scratching their head wondering why the men they were with - who turned abusive and harmful over time - treated them the way they did.

Women? They just have to be better at demanding stuff (demand a loving man who wants a family with her and somebody else's kid, a respect and love for her and somebody else's kid, has a great job etc). See? Only demands, and nothing to offer. The fact that she lists her demands first only shows the entitled mindset she has. She fucked up big time and now has a nerve to demand somebody save her sorry ass.

My great-grandfather used to beat up his wife. He got her pregnant not once, not twice, but 10 fucking times and then he split. He went off with other women and did the same, I presume, until the day he died. Growing up in an extremely ''Alpha'' male enviroment, I would wake up at 4 AM because my thin walls would allow me to listen to what the people in the building next to mine would be doing.

It was usually the wife crying because the ''loving'' ''caring'' ''dedicated'' husband would use her as his personal boxing bag. I've met so many women and men who were the children of abusive, alcoholic, drug-addict men, or men who thought their wives were their properties.

That is why I hate this Alpha male fascination weak omegas have for these archaic, shit-lords that should all be killed off. Violence should only be done onto other men and in santified fields; boxing arena, battlefield, street club fights, and never should a man harm a woman.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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