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53

https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/11/daily-chart-14

49% of male respondents to a poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal last month said that the news had made them think about their own actions around women.

So despite the protests of bloops in the Ansari thread yesterday, it is clear to me that men, and young men especially, are receiving conflicting and often radical messages. There is an inherent human bias to allow the most radical voices to steer the conversation and because their voices are the loudest, they often give disproportional thought to their advice.

A bloop said this yesterday:

I do not think most males are reading these articles and news stories. This only has an affect a small percentage of males who are going to listen to these ideas.

The studies cited suggests otherwise. Additionally, there was talk from bloops yesterday regarding reading and studying academic feminists and how the radical and loudest (and often contradicting) voices within the movement are unworthy of discussion because they don't represent the movement or ideology.

However, while not only impractical, this sentiment devalues the reality of the situation and the message young men are receiving. While RP advice of stop listening to women is certainly applicable, what is a more reasonable solution to the radical and conflicting messages young men are receiving? (Without digressing into "who, what, where and when" these radical voices are coming from and demanding link drops, lets agree that young men are receiving these messages as the study suggests.)

Also, general discussion on the studies and their implication.


[–]cuittlerಠ_ಠ[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children) | Copy Link

Post locked, circlejerking goes under the automod kids.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch21 points22 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The article is about sexual harrassment in the workplace. Do you know if that's how the poll was framed as well? I think it makes a lot more sense if people view asking someone on a date at work as sexual harrassment than just asking someone on a date in general.

[–]civiestudent3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Also, what kids of compliments were they talking about? "I think you're beautiful" sounds a lot more creepy than "hey, I like what you did with your hair". Especially in the workplace. This is why I'm not a big fan of studies like this when they don't provide context or their questions. We can't know what the responders are thinking about unless the survey asks.

[–]reluctantly_red 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

So I guess this means all the women who have asked me to buy them a drink over the years have been harassing me? I had no idea I'd been such a victim. :)

[–]Mr_Smoogs 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

metoo

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs-2 points-1 points  (114 children) | Copy Link

Never stop making fun of victims of sexual assault. Keep it classy.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer4 points5 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

What do you think of lumping all sexual misconduct into "sexual assault"?

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

"Sexual misconduct" seems to be the new catch phrase used by feminists to beat men over the head.

There was rape, then there was sexual assault, then sexual harrassment, and now there is sexual misconduct. They keep lowering the bar for outrage.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well the issue to me is blanketing all of this behavior under one label; “sexual assault”. You can also keep going on about “feminism” or “feminists”, it is way more than that.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs2 points3 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

I don't think of it, because it isn't really a thing outside of paranoid men who believe in slippery slope nonsense.

[–]ffbtaw 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't think

You could have stopped there.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs0 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

Whoa, check out Adam Sandler over here.

My degree is in Philosophy. Trust me: I think plenty.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Yet you think distinguishing between wildly different types of sexual misconduct is "slippery slope nonsense" beneath your consideration. Jesus.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Not at all what I said.

I was asked:

What do you think of lumping all sexual misconduct into "sexual assault"?

And I said "I don't think of it," because I believe they have their own categories.

My issue wasn't that I think different types of sexual misconduct aren't different. My issue is that the people complaining that allegations of harassment are being included in MeToo are ridiculous.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Well the Aziz Ansari story typifies the lumping together of all sexual misconduct into sexual assault. The woman, "Grace," is literally accusing Ansari of sexual assault. Those categories you speak of aren't nearly as well-defined as you make it seem.

[–]slackersdelight-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unless you are in a courtroom where FACTS actually matter.

[–]reluctantly_red12 points13 points  (91 children) | Copy Link

Sorry but a lot of this shit is NOT sexual assault. By expanding the definition of what constitute sexual assault beyond all reason the #metoo movement has actually trivialized the suffering and pain of true victims.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs6 points7 points  (90 children) | Copy Link

MeToo applies to people who have been sexually harassed as well. It's just a tool to open a discussion about sexual misconduct. "Lesser" offenses don't negate the larger ones. That's fallacious thinking.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice4 points5 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

There is no such thing as "sexual misconduct" There is shit that is legal and shit that is not.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

That simply isn’t true. Here in the real physical world, we conduct ourselves in a civilized manner. While certain things may not be strictly illegal, there are modes of conduct society has agreed are unacceptable.

We can these transgressions “misconduct.”

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Nope. That is just your own subjective opinion. Different people have different ideas of how to do sex. Yours is no more valid than anyone else's.

You might consider some things to be rude or dickish and someone else might be fine with them, other people might consider what you do to be rude or dickish and you might be fine with that.

There is no uniform of conduct for sex or courtship.

Everyone is different.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

What you’re describing isn’t how society works in practice. I pray you don’t join us some day.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What you want to do is force a one size fits all authoritarian and puritanical code of conduct for sex down everyone's throat.

People are going to tell you to piss off and stay out of their bedrooms.

[–]ANTIFA_SARKEESIAN 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

beep boop what are societal norms beep boop what is antisocial behavior beep boop

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Those are just personal opinions. Whatever someone considers being a dick/rude/pushy/etc

[–]MauveSuitCrotchetA sensible lavender0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

MeToo applies to people women who have been sexually harassed as well.

I fix it for you, it's a common mistake to make actually.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You’re free to exclude yourself if you’d like. No ones ever given me flack for being part of the campaign.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Feminists outright told male victims to shut up and not take part in it. More so metoo only applied to women not men. It was never intended for male victims.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Which Feminists said that? Kevin Spacey was fired after his male victim came forward. Cory Feldman’s story was and is huge. Men were included in with Times Person of the Year.

If you have a story of sexual assault, speak up.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which Feminists said that?

Those that are feminist. Feminists said it on reddit and outside of reddit.

Men were included in with Times Person of the Year.

Ya that's 100% false.

[–]Belfura0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm still waiting for Terry Crews to get some justice. It's a very interesting case.

[–]reluctantly_red13 points14 points  (51 children) | Copy Link

Sorry but when the "lesser" offenses are not offenses at all the movement is undermined. That's becoming increasing clear to anyone who doesn't have their head in the sand.

[–]vornash21 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

head in the sand.

I expected something else here.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs-1 points0 points  (49 children) | Copy Link

TIL Sexual Harassment is totally OK.

[–]reluctantly_red14 points15 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Apparently you can't tell the difference between harassment and plain old disappointing encounters.

[–]haunting-you 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

do you think that sexual harassment, sexual assault, abuse, and rape are all real things that happen to women, that they are allowed to share their stories about? if you do, then you shouldn't really have a problem with MeToo, as a whole.

if you don't... well, okay, lol.

[–]reluctantly_red8 points9 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

WTF? Of corse all those things are real. But the problem is that some folks are trivializing the suffering of these girls and women by defining their own trivial disappointments as harassment, assault, or abuse.

Going to have the leave this conversation now -- got to make a living.

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!-1 points0 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

Not enough to ruin someones life over usually.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

Uh huh. And exactly whose life has been ruined by unwarranted allegations of sexual harassment?

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 2 points3 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Steven Galloway is in the news now with the feminist backlash on that author, Atwood.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/15/margaret-atwood-feminist-backlash-metoo

http://www.ubcaccountable.com/open-letter/steven-galloway-ubc/

Allegations were found to be unsubstantiated. Life ruined.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Garrison Keillor.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I can think of multiple band members who have been completely disgraced by bullshit false claims

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Plenty of people have lost jobs or suffered because of unwarranted allegations

[–]storffish1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

the point he's trying to make is that the current sexual assault and harassment spotlight has also given a platform to women with an axe to grind. quite often sexual assault happens in private, and is a he-said-she-said situation at best. and due to the personal nature of it, even an allegation thats eventually discredited will massively affect someone's reputation.

obviously most women wouldn't use that kind of thing to settle a score or get revenge on someone, but there's a fringe minority who probably would given the right circumstances. and all the emphasis on automatically, unquestioningly believing women makes them even more dangerous. one can forgive a guy for being paranoid.

[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad2 points3 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

AWALT is just a tool to open the discussion about poor behavior by women in relationships.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs3 points4 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Are you really comparing some misogynistic made-up bullshit based on nothing to a campaign for victims of sexual assault?

[–]WhiskersNTreddish purp5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

lol look at those goalposts go

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

?

He said something completely unrelated to the discussion. He didn't just shift goalposts, he moved the stadium.

[–]WhiskersNTreddish purp7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It appears that in the grandparent post you’re giving metoo a very wide reading, and then when someone called you on it, you shifted to the extremely narrow reading that it’s only about victims of sex assault. It’s interesting from a debate POV

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

He said something completely unrelated to the discussion. He didn't just shift goalposts, he moved the stadium.

It's objectively incorrect to claim Metoo is about sexual assault. Most of the claims in MeToo don't involve direct assault, but sexual misconduct in the work place. Inviting a female coworker to your hotel room and asking for a massage isn't harassment.

[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

The campaign has less validity.

[–]SlimLovin 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

, says a pretty obvious woman-hater.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Projecting much?

[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Name calling? Are you 12?

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

well, millions of people are talking about #metoo online and hundreds if not thousands of women have shared their stories, meanwhile AWALT is something a handful of internet neckbeards believe.

But yeah AWALT is totally valid and relevant and totes not something a bunch of bitter manchildren made up

[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But yeah AWALT is totally valid

I agree

[–]Belfura0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You and your neckbeards should get a room.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The horror!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

metoo

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Silly boy men can't be harassed by women, you cause women lack power and reasons.

[–]pinkgoldrose2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yeah if you're out* trying to have fun with your friends and people ask you for drinks it's incredibly rude.

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Rudeness isn't harassment.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It can be when done repeatedly.

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Her example is not an instance of that

[–]vornash27 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Rudeness doesn't amount to assault. Fucking people are rude in life, deal with it or don't go outside your safe zone because you're too fucking mentally fragile.

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

what? No it isnt. You arent entitled to have no one talk to you. Cant imagine how easy your life is if you consider that rude.

[–]DashneDK2King of LBFM3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No woman ever asked me to buy her a drink. However, a few have given me drinks. The trick is to look broke. Or, as in my case, be broke.

[–]Eastuss 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

who have asked me to buy them a drink over the years have been harassing me?

Asking someone out by asking to ask you out (and pay shit to her), that's not harassment, that's begging.

[–]reluctantly_red3 points4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Shit happens all the time. A girl comes up to you -- smiles -- and says "so when are you going to buy me a drink?" They seem to think its cute.

Its mostly younger women who do this (mostly). Older women have their own annoying habits.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Though no woman ever gave these straightforward IOIs.

[–]SKNK_Monk2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

It's because it's not an IOI. It's manipulation for free drinks.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could be any. Why do they ask attractive men then?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It can be an IOI.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Found the easy mark

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

lol. If you think I am an easy mark think again.

[–]Salty-Bastardjust an excitable boy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Found the guy who thinks a $5 drink is a mark.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe not to you.

[–]Eastuss༼ つ ▀̿_▀̿ ༽つ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah sorry missed a "me". I know women who lure men into giving drinks, women who strongly think that getting free shit is part of flirting. But women never approach me, not even for taking advantage of me :p

[–]Aaren_AugustineWants a Cookie-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Shit test failed?

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

hahaha the other day at a coffee shop I had a girl flirt with me by asking me to buy her a hot chocolate. Fuck off.

[–]red_matrix14 points15 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Could this be a generational issue? Girls at bars ALWAYS ask guys to buy them drinks. Any guy will tell you they have witnessed this on multiple occasions. Talking to women at a bar, buying them drinks, etc isn't harassment lol it's called socializing in public. Is this what the internet and social media have done to a generation?

[–]vornash24 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Considering how fast generations change, you could easily be out of the loop on what's coming next.

[–]reluctantly_red5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nothings changed. I've watched my 23 year old daughter and her friends. They don't behave that much differently than my female friends did at that age.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nothing has noticeably changed yet but it will. Women will still ask men for drinks but the whole communication of it all will be different. Hopefully men say "no" when women ask and walk away from any woman asking for him to buy a drink.

[–]says_harsh_things 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

25% of men give the answer they think they are supposed to give to stay out of trouble and get a cookie.

[–]reluctantly_red 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Bingo!

[–]ANTIFA_SARKEESIAN 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

useless comment, please refrain from "super-upvote" comments like "THIS" or "bingo" or "+1" keep those on youtube where they belong thx.

[–]ANTIFA_SARKEESIAN 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

wow this is the hard-hitting RP social science I come to PPD for, LMAO

[–]reluctantly_red10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I saw the future last Saturday. I was at a small pub by the ocean in Marin County. I was with my date (we're both early 50s). There were some other middle aged couples and several tables of younger people. The tables of younger people were either all male or all female -- and there was no interaction between them.

Thinking that this situation isn't good for either gender.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree and I am gen y. The internet has wedge a divide between men and women and despite all the claims of it bring us closer together it really has divided us more than anything. Ya its cool I can now talk to a person in Europe or something but talking to people face to face locally has become more difficult.

[–]Salty-Bastardjust an excitable boy2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ah well, Marin county, where SJW/Radfem is celebrated, what more would you expect. The scary part is that's the future of America if people don't start calling bullshit.

[–]vornash2-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Modern politics alone will enforce this group think. Safe spaces, that's what young people value today.

[–]reluctantly_red2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I really don't think so. It seems only a tiny vocal faction wants "safe spaces". The rest just seem too timid to rock the boat.

[–]concacanca 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

It's harassment until she likes it.

We really ought to stop viewing the world through a female lens.

Be attractive and go for it, only stop if she gives you a hard no. That's the advice we should be giving men. Sure women would have to be more direct as well but it would clear up a few consent issues and get nice guys to be more assertive.

Huzzah.

Btw you are hawt OP.

[–]sketch1620005 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

We really ought to stop viewing the world through a female lens.

Yes.

Be attractive and go for it, only stop if she gives you a hard no. That's the advice we should be giving men.

No. Be attractive go and go for it. Stop if you feel like you're driving the action 100% and she isn't contributing. And not because she might be uncomfortable but because you should be uncomfortable with some one who isn't enthusiastically and obviously into you.

I understand that some women are shy or aren't forward or whatever, but those women need to put on thier big girl panties and start to take some responsibility for the interaction. If she gives you mixed messages (like crying in the bathroom and then blowing you,) stop. If she plays hard to get, stop. If she's shit at transmitting body language, stop. If ever you feel like you're confused and need to ask if she's okay with it, just stop, send her home and have a fap.

The problem is that women like to be the passive party and men feel like they have to push everything forward or nothing will happen. We should stop tolerating that. Teach women that if they want things to move forward, they have to be clear and carry it forward at least a little. Guys, if she's giving you a hard time, just walk away. It's not our responsibility to make these things happen. There's other fish in the sea that don't play bullshit games.

[–]a_mans_perspective 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Teach women that if they want things to move forward, they have to be clear and carry it forward at least a little.

For a guy wanting casual sex it might be a little counter productive to wait around for this idea to permeate into society at large. TRP exists because there are a lot of men who want to deal with the reality in front of them and get laid, not hold out for some idealistic world where women always express themselves clearly.

[–]sketch1620002 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess my point is that there are already women that have no problem expressing themselves clearly, it's just that guys have to select for them. Be willing to walk away from the girls that just wait for you to perform like a monkey and pick the ones that are active participants and make it easy.

It's like a first kiss. Don't just smash your face into hers. Lean in halfway. If she doesn't meet you halfway, no kiss. Maybe she wanted you to just "take her" but fuck that in this day and age. There's plenty of women out there that don't play that game.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s funny that you say women like to be the passive party and that if she’s giving you a hard time and playing hard to get, you should move to other fish in the sea.

Do you see the logical fallacy in your statements? If women are the ones that are passive and play bullshit games, who are the other fish in the sea that he’s supposed to move unto? Men? Lol!

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s funny that you say women like to be the passive party and that if she’s giving you a hard time and playing hard to get, you should move to other fish in the sea.

Do you see the logical fallacy in your statements? If women are the ones that are passive and play bullshit games, who are the other fish in the sea that he’s supposed to move unto? Men? Lol!

[–]vornash21 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the first sensible thing I've read in this fucking thread of absurdity.

[–]pinkgoldrose3 points4 points  (65 children) | Copy Link

Why? Women don't exist to give you pleasure. You shouldn't have a fundamental right to annoy them.

[–]indican_king24 points25 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

"Go out and make friends man, just get out there and strike up a conversation!"

"Why? People don't exist to give you pleasure. You shouldn't have a fundamental right to annoy them."

[–]pinkgoldrose10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That's kind of why the crazy person on the bus who talks to strangers is considered crazy. There's a context that's appropriate and there's an amount that's appropriate. "Only stop if she gives you a hard no" does not seem appropriate. Whether you're trying to make friends or get sex, you have to read your audience.

[–]caesarfecitPurple Pill Man13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nowhere is it written that women have to talk to every man who approaches her at any time.

Trying to say men aren't allowed to approach women without permission runs contrary to human nature, what most women want, and it stinks of a power grab.

[–]vornash27 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The core problem I suspect is a hatred of men and/or an emotional childishness, which is more common than people realize.

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Plenty of non-crazy people on the bus talk to strangers. You sound sheltered.

[–]PieceBringerPurple Swag0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What world do you live in?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

hmm if only there was a way to make friends without annoying random women, HMMMMMMMMMM

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You rarely know whether or not they'll be annoyed until you strike up a conversation.

[–]Blue_Violet23Blue Pill Woman1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You rarely know whether or not they'll be annoyed until

You do, actually. Usually, these guys know they'll be unwelcomed but they choose to do it anyway.

[–]passepar2t2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You do, actually. Usually, these guys know they'll be unwelcomed but they choose to do it anyway.

Because they're ugly?

[–]PieceBringerPurple Swag0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So you're saying that all the girls and friends I met at night were a mistake? I apologise then.

[–]concacanca6 points7 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

Women are getting annoyed anyway, telling the guys who self censor to throw their hat in the ring might mean when end up happier in the long run.

Besides, if men are taught to respect the hard no, it'd take seconds to give an unambiguous statement to fuck off.

[–]pinkgoldrose4 points5 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Do you differentiate between hard nos and soft nos?

[–]caesarfecitPurple Pill Man6 points7 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

"Leave me alone" kinda does the trick. If he doesn't listen, then he's not respecting boundaries.

[–]pinkgoldrose3 points4 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

But what if you're on a date (like hanging out at home) and you want the date/relationship to continue, but you don't want to have sex right now. If you say "I don't want to have sex", the guy will do like Aziz Ansari, he'll say "of course no problem we can just chill" and he'll try to shove his penis in your mouth.

[–]passepar2t7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would respect the "I don't want to have sex," but I would probably leave the date sooner than later. Politely, of course. I may or may not invent an excuse.

[–]wracky272RPG's are fun7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you say "I don't want to have sex", the guy will do like Aziz Ansari, he'll say "of course no problem we can just chill" and he'll try to shove his penis in your mouth.

She didn't say that, though. She mumbled and gave nonverbal cues (of her own admission). Also, she'd already had his penis in her mouth by that point. If you're going to rescind consent after that, it'd better be pretty fucking direct.

[–]caesarfecitPurple Pill Man6 points7 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

But what if you're on a date (like hanging out at home) and you want the date/relationship to continue, but you don't want to have sex right now.

A lot of girls abuse that though, and act like they're uncomfortable just because they want to postpone sex so they can keep the upper hand. I've even had older women pull this trick on me and then they wonder why I don't call!

It's dishonest, manipulative, and not at all fair to guys. That's why guys advance until serious resistance is met. It's the only way to be sure if she's really not having it, or she's just holding out on you. And the dead giveaway with this tactic is if you ask her "what's wrong", she won't give you a straight answer, or she'll only communicate nonverbally. That's why girls need to communicate directly and honestly when this happens, if for no other reason than as a sign of good faith.

If you say "I don't want to have sex", the guy will do like Aziz Ansari, he'll say "of course no problem we can just chill" and he'll try to shove his penis in your mouth.

First of all, I'd never stick my cock in a reluctant girl's mouth because I wouldn't want her to panic and bite down :s

Next, what is a guy supposed to do, close up shop if she doesn't jump all over him? I simply do not understand how girls, the empathetic gender, can't understand that to guys this stuff reeks of a power play. Guy's don't have the luxury of playing hard to get and letting her make the first move, and if we have to stop the second she's the least bit uncomfortable, then men effectively have zero sexual agency. If a girl is really uncomfortable, she can either communicate and try to get the guy on the same page, or leave. But a lot of girls will not do that and it's not fair to guys. One would think it'd be in girls' best interest not to take advantage of a guy's chivalry but people are not rational.

That's why my rule is, when a girl gives me serious LMR and she won't communicate, then I'll just end it and leave/ask her to leave.

[–]pinkgoldrose8 points9 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

I don't see why it's a power play or manipulative. The girl said "let's have sex some other time, second date maybe". She just didn't feel comfortable having sex with him right then. It's not a game.

If men stop when women are uncomfortable, they still have the same amount of sexual agency as women have because women also have to stop if the guy is uncomfortable.

[–]caesarfecit 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

That's so naive that I'm honestly doubting whether you're willing to see this from a guy's perspective.

If men stop when women are uncomfortable, they still have the same amount of sexual agency as women have because women also have to stop if the guy is uncomfortable.

This is just precious. If I had a million dollars for every time a guy stopped an initial sexual encounter because he was uncomfortable, my net worth wouldn't move an inch. And I suspect you know that.

If a woman is truly uncomfortable, she owes it to the guy to give him a hard no and communicate. Otherwise he has no way of knowing whether it's genuine or she's playing hard to get.

[–]pinkgoldrose6 points7 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

I still don't think anyone is playing hard to get. It sounds like something that men made up to justify ignoring nos. A no is a no. Why do men keep going after hearing "I don't want to have sex"?

[–]Nemobeenfound 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Men don't exist to serve. You shouldn't have a fundamental right to annoy them.

[–]Blue_Violet23Blue Pill Woman1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

It's like some things are harassment when they are not desired and not harassment when they ARE desired..! It's all so complicated! /s

[–]Liptusg3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, things are harassment when you communicate to someone, preferably politely, that they aren't desired, and they ignore you. I'm not harassed by any 40 year old gay dude who hits on me as much as I don't desire the D, I'm not harassed by Mormons at my door as much as I don't desire Joseph Smith, and so forth.

[–]a_mans_perspective 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

It IS complicated, because female desire is not explicitly stated, and takes some time to read. Sometimes it even starts off at a low level but then increases as she gets to know a man.

[–]Blue_Violet23Blue Pill Woman-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It IS complicated, because female desire is not explicitly stated, and takes some time to read.

It's really not though. It might not always be explicitly, verbally stated but 99% of the time -unless the guy score very highly on autism or something, there's no ambiguity. If a girl wants you or is interested; you'll know for sure (of course that's still does not give the guy the right to bypass any lack of consent).

If you have to ask yourself is she is interested or not, again; the vast majority of time, she's not.

Guys who say they can never tell if a girl is interested probably simply never had any real interests shown their way.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

You shouldn't have a fundamental right to annoy them.

Yes you do. It's called freedom of speech?

Also your assuming no woman is interested in male attention, another fallacy.

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

tbh I doubt she receives any male attention herself. The ones that cry about it online never do.

[–]allweknowisD1 point2 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

freedom of speech

Applies to government. Not a freedom to annoy and harass

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Applies to government. Not a freedom to annoy and harass

What are you talking about?

The government is restricted from arresting individuals on basis of expression of their beliefs through speech, press, etc.

You can't call the police to arrest someone who is annoying you. Nor is there any laws that dictate what is or is not annoying.

[–]allweknowisD0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

I’m talking about people that use the term freedom of speech to try and justify things it doesn’t apply to.

Freedom of speech doesn’t apply to things like hate speech or harassment.

Remove annoy. I don’t know why I even included that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Freedom of speech doesn’t apply to things like hate speech or harassment.

Yes It does and it's been confirmed by the supreme court.

Supreme Court unanimously reaffirms: There is no ‘hate speech’ exception to the First Amendment

[–]allweknowisD0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

Then I stand corrected on hate speech. Still doesn’t allow for harassment though

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Still doesn’t allow for harassment though

That would depend on the definition of harassment your using.

Most people on the far left interchange hate speech and harassment all the time.

[–]allweknowisD0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Well in this situation it’s about being told no but continuing to persevere until the stage of making whoever the girl is uncomfortable and feeling intimidated.

You’re not really going to catch me out with thinking I inflate saying hi to someone as harassment

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thing is if they find you attractive then it doesnt annoy them, it's what they enjoy. Since no one can read minds and men lead on these things then men have to take the chance. Women, by not leading, have to suffer from being occasionally annoyed by advances.

Deal with it.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Male thirst is so pathetic. Pathetic enough to power through even though most women find him gross and annoying.

[–]PieceBringerPurple Swag0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

"MEn Are not entitleD to My tiMe"

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But I can

What are you going to do about it

[–]vornash2-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And your emotional fragility or disability or whatever you want to call it, is your god damn problem. The rest of the human race doesn't and shouldn't dance to your insane tune. Stay in your safe space if normal human interactions offend you that much. Of course I'm really talking about the bitch that accused Aziz and other people like them.

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You shouldn't have a fundamental right to annoy them.

I should and I do

[–]vornash2-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And your emotional fragility or disability or whatever you want to call it, is your god damn problem. The rest of the human race doesn't and shouldn't dance to your insane tune. Stay in your safe space if normal human interactions offend you that much. Of course I'm really talking about the bitch that accused Aziz and other people like them.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Agreed.

Thanks! =)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why are you hot? I want to be hot too.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I posted my pic in the purge mystery thread. Women find me attractive I guess.

[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I keep missing the purge threads

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

oh.. well, grass is always greener on the other side :D

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn7 points8 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Pretty soon, simply talking to/looking at women will be harassment. It's honestly sad that people feel this way, and I think it is their own insecurity/fear of the world that is causing it.

[–]vornash210 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The modern safe space concept has created a generation of child-adults that can't deal with different views. Is this really surprising?

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

What's surprising is that it's become so prevalent that speaking against it will get you crucified in the town square.

[–]vornash23 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Like those in the matrix, they are not ready to be unplugged, and they will fight to protect it.

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Of course. Sadly, some of them might never be able to be "unplugged."

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that's what political prisoner work camps are for

[–]mydikishomofobik2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Looking at women will now be considered forcible ocular rape-sodomy and the perpetrator will be arrested by an elite SWAT team, imprisoned, and placed on the sex offender registry.

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not only that, but he will be castrated, have his arms and legs cut off, his eyes gouged out, and his tongue ripped out so can never rape a woman ever again.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue3 points4 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

What's life like on that slippery slope?

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn10 points11 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Sadly, some women already believe that men shouldn't even say "Hi" to them. Not sure where you live but I hope you never have to hear about it.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

I live in the real world where that's not a thing.

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn6 points7 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Maybe in your world, but in other people's worlds, it's a thing.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue-1 points0 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I've never met a woman that believes anything like that. It sounds to me like complete hyperbole. Where is this a thing because it isn't in metropolitan America.

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn8 points9 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I've never met

There's your answer right there.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I interact with women on a daily basis. I live in a fairly liberal city housing 2.5 million people and go to school on a campus with roughly 40,000 students. I don't believe these people exist in significant numbers and that I haven't met some of them.

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You can list as many numbers as you want, but if you haven't said "Hi" to even a fifth of those people, it's irrelevant to mention the entire population.

[–]FalseBuddhaSomething borrowed, something Blue2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Again, where are these women that believe saying "hi" to them is harassment? I live in a densely populated, liberal area and am actively enrolled in college. It seems to me that's where women with those beliefs would be most common. And, yet, I've never met one, I've never heard of any of my friends meeting one, I've never even heard rumors of friends of friends of friends having met one, I've never witnessed it happening to strangers.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't believe these people exist in significant numbers

Not yet, but they seem to be growing sadly enough.

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are bp women in this very thread saying that men annoying women by approaching is sexual harassment.

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Never heard of the Male Gaze?

[–]prodigy2throw 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

If an ugly man leaves his house it is a burden to the world

[–]blackedoutfastRed Pill Man2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

good. that just makes it easier for those of us who aren't afraid of women.

[–]pinkgoldrose16 points17 points  (28 children) | Copy Link

I don't see what's wrong with the message of don't do what Aziz Ansari did. It's basic politeness and it's not infringing on men's rights. I don't understand the men who are like "I was already too shy to approach women and now I'm even more scared!". If you were already too shy to approach women, this is not about you, you don't need to dial back. If you were behaving like Aziz Anzari, then you need to dial back.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't see what's wrong with the message of don't do what Aziz Ansari did.

What message is that? The woman expected Aziz to be a mind reader, something most if not nearly all women assume with men. When are women going to realize us men can't read your minds and that you have to actually communicate exactly what you want? You like many others want to blame Aziz here but the woman is at fault as well.

If you were behaving like Aziz Anzari, then you need to dial back.

Say men like Aziz did, say ALL men dialed it back. I highly doubt women would like that really.

[–]pinkgoldrose1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

"where do you want me to fuck you?" - "next time" - "oh you mean second date?" - "yeah"

"Are you okay?" - "I don't want to feel forced because then I'll hate you and I'd rather not hate you"

He kept pressuring her. He didn't do anything illegal, but he didn't need to be a "mind reader" to know she didn't want to have sex.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She also didn't stand her ground either. She knew going back to his place ment.

[–]a_mans_perspective 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Aziz is gonna Aziz. Men like that are too thirsty, desperate and self centered to let up unless the law specifically stops him. Everything up to the point of illegality is game, for him.

The question is whether women can get fucking control of themselves and not just randomly give blowjobs and sex to men because they feel "pressured"... because the male is a celeb and she really wants to be his girlfriend.

[–]pinkgoldrose0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

She did. This whole thing happened in like 30 minutes. That's how long it took her to "pull her head out of her naive ass". It's not that bad. And she did refuse penis-in-vagina so at least she had that amount of self-respect. I'm sure she will find a guy who will be more suited for her eventually.

[–]CidCrisisPurple Soup1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

After letting him go down on her, blowing him, going to the bathroom, then blowing him again?

And the fact that she had the gall to publish it is the fucked up part.

Shitty or awkward sexual experiences happen. No need to try and publically destroy a man's reputation over it.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment22 points23 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Yup. The men who need the message the most don't care, and the men listening didn't have this problem to begin with.

[–]aznphenix3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So it's not that there's anything wrong with the message it's just very ineffective.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So it's not that there's anything wrong with the message it's just very ineffective.

Well I'll go so far as to say it's ineffective.

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

The same is true for slut shaming.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The same is true for slut shaming.

💯!

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Now change your original comment to something else to make me look as bad as possible.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Your lucky I can't think of anything clever.

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

*You're

That should be enough motivation for you to crush me.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're a dick.

Sorry, that's all I can muster.

[–]pinkgoldrose5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

That's true, however, the slut is not harming anyone, she's giving sex to men who want it, without forcing them. The insistent dudes are at least hurting the women's feels and putting them through a bad time.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

however, the slut is not harming anyone

Stds

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Then by sleeping with her, you’re harming yourself. Because his dick sure didn’t just ‘happen’ to be in her vagina. Men need to take responsibility for their actions. If you get an STD from a slut, it’s your fault.

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Change "The men who need the message the most..." to "The ones the message is directed at ..." and it becomes accurate.

[–]pinkgoldrose1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I understand what you mean.

[–]vornash2-3 points-2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, I would say at least some people are being hurt, simply by having a permissive attitude about sex. In cultures where this is not tolerated there is a more equal distribution of sexual wealth in society.

This concept is modeled off what we know from the animal kingdom as well. Bonobos have developed a culture that is dominated by women in artificial conditions like the captivity of a zoo, but only because they act as mediators of aggression and often de-escalate tension or violence by handing sex out like it's candy based often on need instead of desire.

By this rational, it is plausible a more unequal distribution of sexual favors in society will affect male aggression and violence to some extent.

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh my god, you with these bonobos, give it a rest...

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A message that does nothing at all to the bad guys and directly harms the good guys is a bad message.

[–]LSTW12348 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. Like just don’t keep whipping out your dick when she repeatedly rejects your advances.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And DEFINITELY don't do that "claw" maneuver, jesus christ what the fuck was that.

[–]LSTW12341 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That was the weirdest part of the entire story.

[–]wracky272RPG's are fun4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wow, with this advice I'm unstoppable! Look out, women of the world!

[–]Blue_Violet23Blue Pill Woman0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This. It's not so difficult to not be a little creep like Anzari. If you still creep out women no matter what you do then maybe just avoid interacting with them altogether.

[–]wracky272RPG's are fun4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure these aren't the only problems these people bring to the dating pool. I'm not surprised that 25-33% of people aren't generally awful about any given topic/scenario/idea. Hopefully they all pair off and eat Tide pods together.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Were you always purple? For some reason I thought you were red.

[–]wracky272RPG's are fun0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was red for maybe two weeks but that was a long time ago. Old flair was "RPG's are fun" which might've played mind tricks

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hm yeah maybe

[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Who cares what they think? Nothing is going to come of it.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs4 points5 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

49% of male respondents to a poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal last month said that the news had made them think about their own actions around women.

Good. That's the point. You should think about your actions toward other human beings. I'm glad metoo is working so well in making people more considerate.

[–]DashneDK2King of LBFM20 points21 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Have you see how ubiquitous social anxiety seem to be in the Millennial generation? I'm Generation X - nobody had social anxiety when I was younger. We didn't even have a word for it.

Congratulation, you have managed to create a whole generation with debilitating mental issues which may render them permanently damaged and unable to participate in society in any meaningful way - let alone form relationships with the opposite sex.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Congratulation, you have managed to create a whole generation with debilitating mental issues which may render them permanently damaged and unable to participate in society in any meaningful way - let alone form relationships with the opposite sex.

Yup. And that instilled FUD among guys now. So now women and guys have FUD. Ya equality?

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

  1. People had social anxiety in Generation X. No one talked about mental illness then. The frequency of diagnoses has more to do with the topic becoming less taboo than it does with less people suffering from mental illness. If you think social anxiety wasn't a "thing" for generations before this one, I refer you to any Woody Allen movie or episode of Seinfeld.

Congratulation, you have managed to create a whole generation with debilitating mental issues which may render them permanently damaged and unable to participate in society in any meaningful way - let alone form relationships with the opposite sex.

  1. Fuck off with that slippery slope bullshit. I suffer from clinical anxiety and depression, and yet I still serve my community five days a week, 52 weeks a year. I'm also in a happy long-term relationship and sincerely cannot remember a time when I wasn't.

Turns out talking about your mental health problems is the first step toward having those problems treated. WHODATHUNKIT!?

[–]Salty-Bastardjust an excitable boy2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Being on a civil servant payroll is not serving your community, get off your high horse. Lots of hard working people pay taxes to employ you.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No one talked about mental illness then.

Despite the fact they did.

Fuck off with that slippery slope bullshit.

Maybe don't create a slippery slope situation then.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Have you see how ubiquitous social anxiety seem to be in the Millennial generation? I'm Generation X - nobody had social anxiety when I was younger. We didn't even have a word for it.

Social anxiety definitely existed in Generation X. It just wasn't very well known then due to the internet not being widespread when our generation was younger. I'm not sure if diagnoses are going up, however.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You should think about your actions toward other human beings.

Why? More so is my generation so sensitive to everything? Its like they are freaking afraid of talking to another person least they may hurt their feelings. Hell people in /r/GamerGhazi where saying how men should't approach let alone talk to women. My generation is so fucked up its beyond sad.

[–]Cristoff134 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

GhamerGhazi reddit is just cringeworthy. Its worse than any of the feminist subreddits. Look at this quote I found for instance:

A lot of bad sex would be avoided if you consistently told young men they don't have to have sex just because they can have sex.

Yes! the only reason young men want sex so much is because society tells them they should. We need some kind of education campaign, after which men everywhere will breath a sigh of relief "thank you! Now I can stop pretending I like sex so much and get on with my life!"

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes! the only reason young men want sex so much is because society tells them they should.

Society does tell men that they are horny monkeys 24/7 and if they don't want to fuck then they must be gay.

[–]ffbtawPurple Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They are all NEET fatasses, want to make everyone else as miserable as they are.

[–]vornash21 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's less likely to have the desired result unless women also speak up when absurdity is presented as the new-normal, like people categorizing normal human social behavior as sexual harassment.

[–]Princeso_Bubblegum☭ The real red pill ☭3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There is an inherent human bias to allow the most radical voices to steer the conversation and because their voices are the loudest, they often give disproportional thought to their advice.

Why hasn't socialist dominated discourse in the left then. For some strange reason people think 'sjws' are some fringe radicals, when if anything they are just very loud social liberals.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Socialism has dominated the discourse within the left, especially among Millennials.

[–]Neoprime-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

As a millennial IDGAF. I do me.

[–]MauveSuitCrotchetA sensible lavender0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can confirm

[–]truedemocracy3Such An Asshole!2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is what Red Pillers mean by "enjoy the decline". Media controlled by the far left acting like it represents all women is confusing men who rely on the internet to understand women instead of real experience.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I honestly thought the whole thing was ridiculous, until I had a friend make a claim that pursuing a certain woman for him was dangerous because she may file some sort of a claim against him and ruin his career. So there is definitely some reaction among men towards the current state of media, but I doubt it's large enough to make a cultural impact. I think it's just a temporary fad that gets them views and it will pass just as any subject matter does, and once it passes the spotlight people will go back to their older behaviors.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I doubt it's large enough to make a cultural impact.

I would say otherwise.

I think it's just a temporary fad that gets them views and it will pass just as any subject matter does, and once it passes the spotlight people will go back to their older behaviors.

The outrage of it all will pass but the intention of pointing out "bad" male behavior is going to last and have an impact. Men are going to be more careful around women now, especially at work. It won't be an overnight change or that a huge drastic one but a moderate one. And you going to see FUD among guys in regards to this.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer0 points1 point  (30 children) | Copy Link

The studies cited suggests otherwise. Additionally, there was talk from bloops yesterday regarding reading and studying academic feminists and how the radical and loudest (and often contradicting) voices within the movement are unworthy of discussion because they don't represent the movement or ideology.

At this point in time “feminism” is just used as a catch-all term by a lot of people to describe something that they do not like and a scapegoat. It is easy to notice how quickly someone is labelled a “feminist” or how something is labelled “feminism”? Wrote a Huffington Post opinion piece on sexual harassment? Feminist. You want men paying child support? Feminist. Colored your hair? Feminist. Alimony? Feminism. Dyed your hair? Feminist. Say anything negative about males? Obviously, feminist. This is just tilting at windmills.

The issue with attacking “feminism” is that, similar to most movements in the post-modern era, it has split into several sub-sections, “feminism” itself does not actually exist as an ideology, but rather there are different ideologies within the schools of feminism. The foundations for the ideas of feminism can be traced back over 200 years, people act as if these ideologies just spawned out of the ground one day. There is: radical feminists, liberal feminists, Marxist feminists, post-structural feminists, TERF-radical feminists, libertarian feminists, post-modern feminists, separatist feminists, intersectional feminism, anarcha-feminism and the list goes on. These all have their own unique ideas, goals, writers, leaders and people, so just saying “feminism” is effectively useless. An individual person cannot even be all the types of feminists at once, some of the beliefs contradict each other: sex-positive feminists and sex-negative feminists, intersectional feminists and TERF-radical feminists for example.

This "feminism" that everyone here is searching for, this united belief, this monster that is an amalgamation of news articles, it simply does not exist. Most of your posts are just news articles with your little commentary on these awful articles sprinkled with a bit of "feminism is bad". It is comically ironic that the staunch anti-feminists are more concerned with feminism than the actual feminists on here.

what is a more reasonable solution to the radical and conflicting messages young men are receiving?

I see an advertisements for fast food and fitness, users on here have called me both a "prude" and a "slut", if you get married your a "cuck" to MGTOW and your miserable to another group, how can you possibly win, there is contradicting messages everywhere. There is not some person called "feminism" telling you to treat women with respect and stick your fingers down their mouths at the same time, if you ever meet this "feminism" person, give me their address so I can personally give them a piece of my mind please.

the message young men are receiving

Have you ever been around a young man before? They can be quite awful and they usually hate listening to most people. Also, do you realize how many grown adult men do not even know what feminism is or care about, this idea that men are just listening to their feminine overlords and weening on their every word is so farcical in itself. Have you ever been around men? I mean not the males on The Manosphere who are all obviously simpy and neurotic, an actual man who is not some banshee screeching about feminism. As sensitive and gentle as men can be, they can be equally stubborn and unwilling to listen to anyone. It is so difficult for a lot of the users here to imagine a teenage boy or a grown man just not listening to anyone, this is really common, but probably not among the social circles of what a lot of users on here are in.

I look forward to your next post tomorrow, just let me know before hand if you will be using Salon, New York Times, Huffington Post as the vehicle for your half-baked rant so I can prepare a little.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There is: radical feminists, liberal feminists, Marxist feminists, post-structural feminists, TERF-radical feminists, libertarian feminists, post-modern feminists, separatist feminists, intersectional feminism, anarcha-feminism and the list goes on.

It would really be helpful if feminists actually said what sort of feminist they are. As so many say "I am a feminist" and wonder why people lump them up as being the same.

It is comically ironic that the staunch anti-feminists are more concerned with feminism than the actual feminists on here.

Seems to me its almost equal. The fact you made a wall of text post speaks to that. I know your not a feminist anymore but still.

Have you ever been around a young man before?

Yup. Even have to work alongside with them. Tho they are more your sensitive gen y kind that don't show any machismo/masculinity.

It is so difficult for a lot of the users here to imagine a teenage boy or a grown man just not listening to anyone, this is really common, but probably not among the social circles of what a lot of users on here are in.

One like the contradiction. Two I wager its not as nearly as common as you think it is. Three I wager teenage boys and young men are more likely to listen to those they put value in. A young man from the ghetto isn't going to listen to a guy from the upper class area, but will listen to another man from the ghetto. The point is men do and will listen, its more depends on who's the messenger is.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think a lot of people who claim to be feminists are just using it as tool to virtue signal, that is why I think most do not identify

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 8 points9 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

That was a lot of words to say basically nothing. How does all the different and contradicting branches of feminism matter when it appears to young men as a unified, confusing and conflicting message?

At the individual level, young men are receiving a unified message from "feminists", whether you like it or not. These messages are often confusing and conflicting due to the reasons you highlighted above.

What is a more reasonable solution to the radical and conflicting messages young men are receiving?

[–]pinkgoldrose6 points7 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

What message precisely? Is it "unified" or is it "conflicting"?

Young men are confused about where they are getting their messages from and you can't blame that on feminism. For instance, on this sub you see people saying "why are feminists saying approaching is harassment but they are saying only men should do the approaching or they aren't 'real men'?". There's no part of feminism that says that second part of the statement.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 7 points8 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

I think it appears unified, but because it is often contradictory with what most women want in reality, it becomes conflicting.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I think it appears unified, but because it is often contradictory with what most women want in reality, it becomes conflicting.

So you think that a bunch of males are reading news articles on the Internet and it is having an affect on them?

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Not necessarily on the internet, but in the media in general. Hey look, the WSJ/NBC poll contradicts what you said yesterday. A not insignificant portion of young men men are receiving ridiculous messages from radicals and taking them into account. It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

I think there is a human bias to give the loudest and most radical voices a disproportionate weight when formulating a personal opinion.

And I was asking the sub for a discussion on what we could do about it.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not necessarily on the internet, but in the media in general. Hey look, the WSJ/NBC poll contradicts what you said yesterday. It is not a minority of men who are receiving ridiculous messages from radicals and taking them into account.

What polls? Can you give a link to them please, I can not see behind the paywall. Also how are you sure it is these news articles doing this?

It's okay to be wrong sometimes.

You do not have to be condensing because someone is calling you out on your sophistry. Stop that.

And I was asking the sub for a discussion on what we could do about it.

Who is "we", that is always the question.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I can not see behind the paywall.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/nbc-wsj-poll-nearly-half-working-women-say-they-ve-n815376

Look, like I suggested, I think its from a combination of sources in the media and women in their lives.

We, the people of this sub speaking about what we the people of this nation could do.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What I can understand from your argument thus far is:

There is some “feminists”(and apparently women) spreading contradicting ideas in the media, and young males(maybe all males) are listening to these “contradicting” messages in the media and it is having an averse affect on them.

Is it possible that it is not one unified group of people with one unified belief system that has contradictions in it(most belief systems do by the way), but are individuals that are both giving contradicting messages independent of each other.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

There’s nothing they can be done to “fix” that. So-called radical messages are everywhere and there are those which attract young, naive people which are far more radical than “don’t be disrespectful to women and don’t assault them.” I guess it would be up to parents to try and steer young boys and men away from messages that could be harmful? I don’t know how you do that on a large scale given the Internet and smart phones and reddit and Facebook and all the things teens like now.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There’s nothing they can be done to “fix” that.

Even tho there is. Its called running a campaign with the message being clear and precise up front and keeping it that way. I mean look at any marketing campaign done by companies let along big ones. As they create a message they want to say. They create a whole campaign around that message. They find the best way to deliver that message. Also the message they want to say is often not simple/dumb down so it can't be lost in translation or that be miss taken or what have you. Why feminists can't do that is beyond me. Instead feminists create campaigns that don't have a simple message and do a horrendous job in formulating the campaign and delivering it.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the honest answer.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I was being serious I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was serious too

[–]vornash25 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Everytime a man is portrayed as dumb compared to their wives in media, a message is conveyed. This has been going on for decades as social pushback against sexism. And it is not completely wrong, it just gets a little old though. The joke value definitely has been stretched to the limit and beyond, and the social need no longer exists, precisely because such messages have had an effect on making men far less sexist in a relatively short period of time.

In just a few generations, we've gone from my grandfather not allowing my grandmother to drive him in a car to me hearing stories about the past and laughing at the absurdity. And that was accomplished by a ton of social messaging in a variety of ways. But like all good things, they typically go too far eventually.

[–]EminemLovesGrapesSpongebob2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think it's more that men that don't approach are just plain unsuccessful. Not that they're not real men.

Is it a conflicting message that approaching works for men who know how to do it. Who know how to interpret female signals and know when she gives you a get go.

Men are getting mad because men read when feminists say that approaching equals harassment as "we consider any men who's unsuccessful in his approach to be a harasser"

Men then think "how am supposed to figure this out if I'm not giving the chance to fuck up?"

I don't think these messages are being cared by for the men who don't have a problem picking up women. But they're making men scared who are still learning

I don't think the message is conflicted. Rather reality is. What is conflicting is how they act vs what is said. Or maybe what is seen.

[–]Ultramegasaurus1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's more that men that don't approach are just plain unsuccessful. Not that they're not real men.

Being sexually unsuccesful makes society question your masculinity.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Young men are confused about where they are getting their messages from and you can't blame that on feminism.

Why not?

There's no part of feminism that says that second part of the statement.

But there is in the first part.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

You are not “men”, do not expect anyone to solve your personal conflicting messages idea for you. Maybe just, I do not know, do not listen to feminists?

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Maybe just, I do not know, do not listen to feminists?

That's the plan yeah. Why exactly are you endorsing this though? Isn't it exactly what you don't want?

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I do not think males should be listening to what feminists are saying.

[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree. Men should be listening to antifeminists like me, going out and doing manly shit, fucking shit up, catcalling and approaching, pump and dumping, voting explicitly and implicitly (less taxes less entitlements) pro male, not white knighting ever in any form of protection, time, or resource giving that they wouldn't do for men, and not getting married

I'm glad we could find common ground

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol this is rich, coming from an RPer that complains about women using and manipulating men. This is why they do it.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because Trump is such a great president not.

[–]Mr_Smoogs 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

HAHA asked yesterday about how I should reconcile contradicting and conflicting views men receive about feminism you gave the advice of studying academic feminists.

Well there is actual ideas that are written by feminists who engage in academia, but that would require some sort of research and reading, that I doubt you have the time or motivation to do.

No you say:

Maybe just, I do not know, do not listen to feminists?

You're rich in conflicting views yourself Electra.

[–]vornash22 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Laughing at or mocking their absurdity in a public way is how we negate a lot of the negative viewpoints of others who are typically a minority. Every time you've seen a tv ad or show beating the old trope of 'dumb husband vs smart wife' you see the same thing happening, messaging against dumb sexist men. But hollywood is not our direct advocate.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Looks like I am done here. You have fun with your post.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

/thread

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[–]haunting-you 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

is there a link to the poll/survey itself? i can't seem to find it in the article; trying to find it on YouGov now, but if you have it, it would be most beneficial to have the actual poll involved in the discussion. the article linked in the OP mentions work environments here and there, but it's not clear if that's what the poll-takers were also asked about (which affects the discussion and results significantly).

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You can not get an answer out of him, good luck.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

probably. i really need to give up hope that shitposters here will change their ways, and engage like normal people. gets me every time...

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Go see his reply to my top level comment, he just wants to discuss something he made up. He is also the arbiter that speaks for all males.

[–]Mr_SmoogsThe 2nd most obnoxious poster here[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Sidenote: got banned from r/relationships today. I guess they monitor who links their sub in other subs? Or someone here sent them a link to the female field report thread and they banned me? Idk but pretty funny nonetheless.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They ban anyone who cross-posts from their sub.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

By the same standard, 25% of Millennial men and women don't think wolf whistling is harassment.

[–]daveofmarsFor Martian Independence0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

25 % of millennial men think asking someone for a drink is harassment. 33% of millennial men and women say that if a man compliments a woman’s looks it is harassment

Two thoughts:

1) Was the poll taken in Portland, San Francisco and/or Washington DC?

2) I'm totally fine with this. Less competition.

[–]mgtownigga0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

they say this on paper, but in practice they're fine with any of these behaviors provided it comes from someone they're attracted to

[–]ProgrammaticallyEgg0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

People are stupid. Especially Americans. Look who they elected.

You can't solve stupidity but you can educate people.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

sex is over

[–]DashneDK2 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

"Millennial men." Lol.

Millennial or men. Pick one.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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