TheRedArchive

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One of the more common narratives I have been reading on here is that a marriage is a transactional arrangement in which a woman "sells" her sexual availability in exchange for commitment, resources, time, protection, status, etc.

A lot of posters react to this viscerally, which is understandable, but I think it is for different reasons.

One topic that has been discussed here previously is that some personalities are more apt to systematize relationships in a way that is repellent to more feeling personalities. However, I think if you gut the relationship like a house, rip out the drywall and insulation and get it down to it's bones, there is a transactional element to all relationships, even if it is subconscious. Posters can talk about this in the abstract without it being an integral part of their personality or behavior in a relationship. Some posters are merely reacting to the notion of relationships as transactions.

Another issue that I see emerging is different, however. Even when comfortable with describing relationships in this manner, I still cannot relate to this description of marriage or long term relationships as a woman. You see, even when I strip the house down to it's bones, I don't perceive myself as "offering" my body in exchange for things like commitment or time or resources. Commitment, time, resources, etc are all things that I also perceive as my primary contribution to the relationship. That's not to say that spending time with my partner is "work" to me, but it is an obligation that I cannot shirk continually. I also feel obligated to work towards are joint future, I cannot spend money entirely as a wish. I also need to report to my partner about my whereabouts within reason. I need to support him with my presence when he is down, and share the best moments of my life with him as well. I have also forfeited other sexual opportunities, even short term, novel ones, in exchange for the same. Even if this desire is not as a persistent as a man's, it exists.

If a man does not consider my time as appropriate "payment" for his time, he doesn't care for my company very much and probably doesn't love me

Basically, I think many women are resistant to the idea that they are "selling" their bodies in their relationships because somebody with appropriate self worth and an inner self is not going to think of their body as their primary offering. When you live in that female body, and see out of those eyes, you also experience the passage of time, the hardship of work, and the emotional energy drained into another when needed. So telling women that they are paying for a man's commitment with sex is nonsensical. Women already feel as if they are "paying" with the same basic things men are.

And, to boot, perceiving one's body as payment had a tendency to repulse women and kill their libido. If this tone infects the relationship it reduces the chances a woman will make good on the part of the "arrangement"


[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice28 points29 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

The basic premise of your post is wrong. The seller does not determine the value of something. The buyer does.

A guy can think his level 99 wizard is his contribution to the relationship. His opinion does not matter. It's the person that is getting the contribution that gets to value it.

So whatever you think your "main contribution" is does not matter.

To demonstrate: A man can say his main contribution is sex and since all he is getting in return is sex he can claim that it's an equal relationship. However for some reason most women won't go for a relationship like that. The sex the guy is offering does not have the value that he thinks it does.

The market sets the prices.

The worth of what you bring to the table is determined by the person that is willing to offer you something for it.

[–]mgtow_19 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Perfectly said.

This is why we say men are paying for sex. Most women will not exchange sex for sex, at least not long term. Men then have to offer more than just sex if they want women to stick around

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That's a good point.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

To expand on that, no two people value the same commodity at exactly the same value. Valuations are very personal things and they change over time.

In a relationship one of the two values the cuddling more than the other, one values the talking more, one the sex more, one the safety more etc etc. That does not mean that the person that values that particular thing "less" values it a zero. Just a bit less intensly than the other.

I wouldn't worry too much about the whole "men only value women in a relationship for sex" thing since that is low value male solipsism. The men who can't get sex any other way than being in a relationship are the only ones that would be in a relationship just for sex. They claim to talk for all men, hence the solipsism.

I can't relate to that at all. If all I want is sex then there is no reason to get into a relationship. I'll just have sex and skip the relationship. If I want to get into a relationship it's got to be for other things in addition to sex.

To list a few of the things that I value from the women that I have been with I would say. Interesting conversation, emotional intimacy, cuddling, help with projects, shared activities, support to reach goals, inspiration to do better, learning things outside my normal areas of expertise, widening of social circle, etc

Different people will value different things more. For example one girl was really interested in the same kind of things I am, science sociology, politics, technology, literature, series, movies, economics and even typical PPD topics. We used to talk about those things for hours, I really valued that. Her ex was not interested in those things at all and did not value just talking about abstract stuff.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What nalka said was pretty much what I said . But he said it better.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer23 points24 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

Marriage is about consolidating power, building a family, having a good environment to raise children in, it was about building something together. Now a lot of people’s marriages sound as if they are just a glorified girlfriend/boyfriend, the entire idea is very novel in my opinion and replaces the original value of marriage with a new value of marriage.

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

That's very true. Even when people on here reference traditional marriage they tend to take a very modern sexualized view. Women were not exchanging sex back then either, they were exchanging children and their own labor.

Regardless, if we are to approach marriage from the perspective of a longer term friendship, it strikes me as backwards that the woman is giving sex for "friendship". Is she not also offering friendship as well?

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

That's because back then you got sex from the mistress

If modern wives don't want you to have a mistress then they have to play the part

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

You think the typical man had a mistress?

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Typically they went to brothels

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

To varying extents, yes. Was this openly accepted?

[–]purpleppparmchair evo psych4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Where? Prostitution was practiced openly in Ancient Greece.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Was this the case everywhere everytime though?

[–]purpleppparmchair evo psych3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_prostitution

widely practiced in ancient greece and rome. present in parts of asia. forbidden by islam. i think it was probably common everywhere but differed in openness.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Forbidden in Islam just means "them niggas was def fuckin hos on the dl"

[–]Taipanshimshonhere for the downvotes8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

ever see those articles about islamic whore houses where imams marry you to the prostitute for the day , hour, what ever, then divorce at the end?

creative bunch

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Loads of brothels in Victorian Era England.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Sure, was this openly accepted? And besides, isn't sexual exclusivity sort of part of the exchange on both sides? I could pencil in new dick whenever I want without effort.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I believe so, if you read into the history of old English pubs they often contained brothels. You'd literally go to the pub and there'd be a brothel in the next room.

I'm not sure if this is exactly something you'd brag about after, but it was also done fairly openly, more openly than today... there's no brothels in pubs now I assure you.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah now they are in massage parlors. Still, it seems this varied. In the US this was commonplace out west during settlement and in New Orleans, but not so much in other places, at least not openly.

I don't know if it was as such that men were "allowed" to do this, so much as women couldn't really do much about it. If a married man was acting rakish and dishonorably, I feel as though it might be deemed ok for a woman to exit the marriage, although it might not be practical in most cases.

Either way, the argument that men can no longer visit prostitutes is grasping at straws in my opinion. They "can" now about as much as they ever could. If the main defense is that now women can divorce them for this, I don't know what this trying to prove.

[–]Alth12Purple Pill Man1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

In most of history in the upper classes both men and women were accepted as having affairs provided they didn't rub their partners nose in it and were discreet.

[–]darla101 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is still the case in the upper classes. There’s an entire code of conduct and language for it.

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I think I'm traditional society men had less issues finding sex. There's been a paradigm shift after women entered the workforce. The sexes don't need each other for economic support anymore. So now a individual women's primary value to a suitor male is sex.

Men want to negotiate sex. No amount of organic time together is going to change that fact. Whether it's being paid for by time spent together or nights on the couch watching Netflix.

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

So now a individual women's primary value to a suitor male is sex.

Honestly if this s the case he should just hire a prostitute and get a second job he doesn't mind.

Whether it's being paid for by time spent together or nights on the couch watching Netflix.

Other then the 45 hours I spend working and commuting, and the 8 hours I spend on my own separate outings, my husband and I spend 115 hours week within 3 feet of each other. He makes about $50 an hour after bonuses. We have sex a couple of times a week. I am much more expensive than a prostitute if time spent with me represents some sort of burden.

[–]Paranoidexboyfriend3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know why people act like hiring a prostitute is some casual thing. There’s huge risks to it. Running afoul of law enforcement, having to deal with seedy criminal elements, risk of disease or being robbed, the grossness of fucking some chick who has banged hundreds of dudes not to mention the lack of validation of feeling sexually desirable.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

All why it should be legalized.

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Honestly if this s the case he should just hire a prostitute and get a second job he doesn't mind.

You're right, I'm forgetting our need for affection.

Nowadays people just get a pet if they want affection

But that's why having a SO is beneficial. You get affection and sex.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She is arguing with the idea that the ONLY thing a woman brings to the table is sex.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think I seen anyone put the whole change in marriage in so few words so well.

[–]Il128 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I know a woman who is married for the income and health insurance. She won't even let her "husband" in the house.

She does however about once a week give him sloppy seconds.

He's apparently ok with this arrangement.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lol

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

I would literally kick her ass to the curb.

[–]Il128 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I know why he doesn't. He's completely unaware that he could do a lot better because he lacks the patience, self-esteem and self discipline it would take to find a decent person to be with.

He's got such a shitty opinion of himself that he's willing to spend his entire income on a literal whore that pretends that if he'd only get it together she'd love him.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What a shame.

[–]DarkLord0chinChin0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

except whores want to fuck you

[–]SkookumTreeWe are DONE with "cope"0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why would a man agree to such a lopsided arrangement? Is she connected or some shit, and giving him sizable career advantages or something like that?

[–]funobtainium1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Maybe it's his kink? People buy stuff/give others money as part of a BDSM kink.

Fin dom.

[–]DarkLord0chinChin-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

lol what a fucking load of bullshit

[–]funobtainium1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't get it either. Some people think they're squirrels, too. Life is odd.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (37 children) | Copy Link

If a man does not consider my time as appropriate "payment" for his time, he doesn't care for my company very much and probably doesn't love me

This is very, very true.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

This is proven false by male friendships alone.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

It proves he sees Jim’s time as appropriate payment for his time. This proves nothing about how he values my time.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If all men and women wanted out of each other was time, there'd be no relationships outside of friendship.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The OP’s premise is that viewing a relationship as [men’s time] in exchange for [women’s sex] is unattractive to women. Figgy goes on to say this in the comments:

A woman who is attracted to a man will see sex as exchange for sex. As in, sexual pleasure for sexual pleasure.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't agree with either statement then.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you a woman?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Are you?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

How? If the friend does not believe his time is equally worth the other friend’s time, how are they maintaining that friendship?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm making the assumption that a true friendship means that their time means the same thing to each other. Isn't that what friendship means?

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But no two people value their time with the other at exactly the same amount. For example an extrovert with an introvert friend.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, they probably aren't doing it by having sex with each other, I can tell you that.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

Is it? It could be very well that her time isn't that valuable to him or that her time isn't as valuable as his time is. Dating after all is a stock market.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

That’s the whole point. If he doesn’t value her time he doesn’t care for her company or love her.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Just because he values her time less than his doesn't mean he doesn't care for her company.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Yeah try telling that to a girl you’re screwing.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I do... with my body language. Most girls I'm screwing love it. They want to be with a guy who values his time more than hers.

(This is why you people are called BP. You just don't get it.)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I really do not care how your plates allow themselves to be treated but thanks for the FR.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Y'know, it might help one day for you BP's to actually consider what we are saying about men and women rather than just dismissing it all. Means we get nowhere here on this sub that was created with the intention of directly debating RP theory.

But again, I guess that's we we call you BP. You don't get it. You don't want to get it. And if you did get it, you would flee in fear and go into self denial to protect yourselves anyway. OK then.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why would I, a happily married woman, give credence to the methods of, often unhappy, single men? My methods have resulted in success for me. I do not need to to learn about the methods that have resulted in failure for the women you pump and dump.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well then maybe you might want to not bother with this subreddit at all and stick with TBP if your only goal here is to make fun of terpers and their crazy ideas. That's what TBP is for. This place is for arguing and trying to persuade people to question what they believe. That's what it says at the top of the subreddit. Just outright making fun of our terms like "plates" and "FR" does nothing to persuade us. You're just leaking TBP into PPD.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Uh what girl?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Exactly

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

🔥🔥🔥

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

No its not a burn at all. A man that values a women's time less than his but still cares for her company is more likely to treat her as a friend.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What? Who cares if he treats her “as a friend”? My point is that you’ll be hard pressed to find a woman who will reply “oh yeah, sure okay” if you tell her you value your time more than hers and therefore the only equal exchange for your time is sex.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What does me not screwing a girl right now have to do with anything?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It could be contributing to a scarcity mentality

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like a boogieman to me. Its the holiday season less people tend to be interested in simply screwing/hooking up.

[–]theambivalentrooster7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I maintain that marriage is a partnership that requires work from both parties to be functional and to succeed. And that marriage before kids is different than marriage during child-rearing and after they are grown.

Marriage is work. Like a job. A job where getting to have sex is part of the benefits package. But it comes with a ton of responsibility and it's not always fun. That's why the vetting, or dating part of a relationship is so important. If you want to date just to date and have fun, that's totally fine. But if you are trying to get married, dating should be about finding a compatible life partner to work with. Some people just get married because they've been dating forever, or because there is insane sexual chemistry, not because they will be good life partners to each other.

To me, at the end of the day, marriage is about raising kids. You can absolutely get married with no intention of having kids. I don't care. But the core function of a marriage is to establish a family unit and jointly raise children. The father's job isn't just to earn cash and the mother's job isn't to solely bear the burden of child-rearing. They are both responsible for the raising of human beings.

Everyone's partnerships are different. But at the end of the day, the question is, are they functional? That is what should be determined before the wedding and the children. Sexual compatibly, financial compatibility (spending vs saving, investment strategies, retirement plans) personality compatibility, and lifestyle compatibility. If you're missing one of those things and think love will make up for it, good luck.

Love is glue, but it can't bear the weight of incompatibility.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes marriage dies not make sense if not for raising children.

[–]wekacuckLife is settling.7 points8 points  (29 children) | Copy Link

I used to think the transaction way and I think it caused a lot of problems particularly during rough patches. For the last few years I now totally agree with how you're describing it. I've also adopted some of the things that I've often seen in more religious discussions about bodies belonging to the relationship. So to me now, marriage is fundamentally sexual for both of us and about serving our combined sexual desires (but more from a pooled desires rather than intersection sense). But I consider the sexuality/bedroom is entirely independent of the rest. Hard to describe but it sort of flows instinctively better this way.

Ultimately monogamy is the bare structure: you've agreed to satisfy each others desires.

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

But I consider the sexuality/bedroom is entirely independent of the rest. Hard to describe but it sort of flows instinctively better this way.

I agree with this. When you set up a scenario in which a woman pays with her body, it implies sex is not pleasurable for her. This manner of thinking can be self-fulfilling and arguably toxic if a mutually pleasurable sexual relationship is your goal. If sex is integrated into the other obligations of the relationship it is subject to outside forces which are subject to change, and can't be controlled and sustained within the relationship.

This sort of seductive and intimidate dance will emerge organically if there is mutual desire, but it will ebb and flow over time. The moment it becomes dutiful it loses its beauty.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (27 children) | Copy Link

I agree with this. When you set up a scenario in which a woman pays with her body, it implies sex is not pleasurable for her.

Less?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (26 children) | Copy Link

Or less, sure. Women have the capacity to enjoy sex as much as men, if not more.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (25 children) | Copy Link

They can enjoy it as much while it is happening, but they will almost always want it at a lower frequency

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

So?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (21 children) | Copy Link

So by agreeing to a marriage a woman is typically trading sex because she is giving more sex out than she otherwise would

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Is she?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (19 children) | Copy Link

She isn't if she decides not to have sex as much as the husband wants

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

she is giving more sex out than she otherwise would

she decides not to have sex as much as the husband wants

Huh?

[–]oneprettycoolcat0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Want it at a lower frequency with most men.

If a guy they are physically attracted to is around, well...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Once limerance ends...

[–]OfSpock5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's similar to the 'nice guy'. "I gave her friendship and now she won't give me sex, the bitch." Dude, you get friendship in exchange for friendship.

[–]selective-autism11 points12 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Commitment, time, resources, etc are all things that I also perceive as my primary contribution to the relationship.

I think the trend with TRP is that these things from a woman do not have value to a red pill man, or at least are so much less valuable than the woman's body that they're negligible. Black pill Lookism (which I consider a branch of red pill as they share many of the same basic assumptions about women) is basically just a projection of this mentality: Looks are personality to these men, and actual behavior or time not spent having sex are neutral-at-best elements that only come into play as possible dealbreakers once baseline physical attraction is established. And obviously the stronger the attraction the less these elements matter.

However, I think if you gut the relationship like a house, rip out the drywall and insulation and get it down to it's bones, there is a transactional element to all relationships, even if it is subconscious.

As for this part I agree with your word choice "transactional element" rather than just reducing it to "all relationships are transactions" as so many RPers are wont to do in this place. In order for this to make sense, red pillers will limit the scope of what a relationship entails down to what they need to do to get sex, which is all they care about, and then assume everyone actually works the same way they do, especially women, who apparently remain deluded and blissfully unaware of this dynamic in their own brains due to each and every one of them being hardwired with hamsters - or whatever pet theory of the month they're circlejerking over at a given time. Because apparently even evolution has it out for the modern western man. I swear they're just one /r/theredpill post away from referring to natural selection as The Matriarchy.

All relationships have transactional elements but relationships are not limited only to quantifiable transactions. It's apparently inconceivable to red pillers that they spend time with anyone at all unless they're receiving some measurable benefit; as if simply observing another person without any expectations or craven calculations about what you can get out of them is pointless. Small wonder that they fetishize dark triad types.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Debating with someone on here is technically a transaction. I think a lot of Red Pill users think it is a business transaction, in which value is being traded for value.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because dating in well a lot of ways is a business transaction if you will. More so its like the stock market.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The whole idea behind TRP is that you build an awesome life on your own. You are complete without another woman in your life. Women are just an accessory that comes along with an awesome life. Therefore, the only (or at least main reason) you would want a woman in it is for sex - or procreation if one is so inclined.

Of course, in reality, most people even fulfilled "alphas" do enjoy the company of the opposite sex, and probably do derive meaning and fulfillment through a relationship with a woman, some of which is not even completely sexual.

My first paragraph above is the baseline RP thinking on this subject, however. Try to understand it from that perspective. And, at least when a single guy is spinning plates and thinking about committing, this is the main thing he should be thinking about on a practical level. "What can she add to my already awesome and 100% fulfilling life?" If he really is 100% fulfilled on his own, then the answer should be "just sex"

... but in reality few people are truly 100% fulfilled on their own. The best they can hope for is maybe 98% or so I'd say. :)

[–]oneprettycoolcat3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Looks are personality to people in general. What happens is you make a split-second determination of someone's looks, and then judge their actions based off that. So, a good-looking person doing one thing is fine but a person who looks like Quasimodo doing the same thing is not. It's a pretty well-documented thing.

It's apparently inconceivable to red pillers that they spend time with anyone at all unless they're receiving some measurable benefit

Why would I do something if I didn't benefit from it in some way? I'm genuinely curious.

[–]selective-autism0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, while looks involuntarily form the original foundation of how we judge a person, and yes initial impressions are often long lasting to sometimes permanent, it is absolutely possible (yes, even for women) to overcome our biases and allow our impressions of someone to evolve RATIONALLY over time. In fact, this is why it pisses you off; you know it's possible in principle, so it means that people are purposefully (but not necessarily consciously) choosing not to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Why would I do something if I didn't benefit from it in someway?

There are certain things in life that are so complex that there is no way to know with any certainty how much potential value lies in them. One of these things is venture capitalism. Another is interacting with another real person. Sure, you can gather data and make educated, excellently well reasoned judgments - but ultimately you'll never know enough info. You just have to make a leap of faith (or a leap of fear).

We're all just floating around in life. No one really knows what's going on, but people who have the confidence to bet on themselves recognize this in each other, and allow themselves to be surprised by other people. You know things aren't as black as white as you portray them here, and you know that your own personal feelings and experiences have absolutely colored your perspective.

[–]oneprettycoolcat0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

To some extent, sure, you can overcome them, but we're in the end nothing but animals, so I don't have much faith in our ability to do all that much.

There are certain things in life that are so complex that there is no way to know with any certainty how much potential value lies in them.

Sure, but I can have a rough estimate of how much I am getting out of an interaction or activity versus how much I am putting into it and from that I can judge whether I want to do it, and generally if I am not getting laid then there is no reason to interact with a woman.

[–]selective-autism1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

so I don't have much faith in our ability to do that much.

So then where does your faith in your rational judgment that women as a whole are not worthwhile come from?

[–]newName543456went volcel-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Looks are personality to people in general.

Yep.

Halo effect is a thing.

[–]youcantdenythatSeriously?4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Surprised no one else has said this.

When RP says that women generally only bring sex to the table, it's not because he doesn't want her partnership, financial and other contributions, quality time, etc. It's because most good looking girls have been so coddled and made to feel like a princess all of their life, that they don't think they have to contribute any other way. In their mind, the men should always pay, they should do all the housework, the men should do all planning, and the man should do anything that is difficult or hard. These women think that their very existence is enough for a relationship.

These are the women that are only good for one thing. These are the women that TRP says to plate, etc. I'd bet real money that any TRP guy would say if you find an actual unicorn then marry her asap. The problem is they are so rare that they might as well not exist.

[–]a_mans_perspective 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

When someone used to fuck you a lot and then stops, and you arent satisfied anymore, you no longer really enjoy them like you used to.

Its like... i want more sex, and you dont really care. You put me in a catch 22 where i can only leave, cheat or be miserable. Why would I want to spend time with someone who could cheerfully put me in that position?

[–]Larry-ManScrew All Y'all2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This AWALT bullshit drives me insane.

Of course, life, and female sexuality in particular, is not fair.

I have a higher sex drive than my male partners. I want it more frequently than any man I’ve been with. I left a man who was totally getting his, told me he was %100 satisfied with the relationship where we had sex 10 times in 2 years.

Some women don’t understand the value of sex in a relationship but some men sure as fuck don’t either. The issue of transactional sex is not exactly gendered. I gave commitment, patience, love, and overlooked a lot of crap to not even get sex out of it even when I barely got emotional support.

I get the idea that you offer commitment in exchange for sex makes it feel like you deserve or are owed something but in reality the values are just fucking mismatched. Maybe most men aren’t going to find a woman who wants sex as much as they do but this idea that women don’t enjoy sex almost at all is BS.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The "transactional" thing is an attempt to bring some fairness into this equation. "If you are getting all the things you want, then why cant I get the one thing I desperately need to make all the rest of it enjoyable and worthwhile? I havent cut you off from any of your needs so why are you allowed to do it to me?"

Because a lot of the time, and in a lot of those cases, the woman isn’t getting the things that she wants or needs.

[–]a_mans_perspective 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, and thats why this "give friendship to only get friendship back" meme in the OP is dumb. In a good relationship both parties should be getting all their needs met. Everything is not a 1:1 trade, sometimes you have to give your partner A, B and C while they give you X, Y and Z.

Egalitarianism has spawned some dumb ideas about relationships....

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don’t think that when people say they want egalitarian relationships, it means that they want exactly the same thing that their partner is getting out of the relationship. I think what they’re mostly referring to, is the opinion giving and the decision making dynamics within the relationship. They do not want one partner to be the one making most of the decisions most likely because it builds resentment.

What the OP here is talking about has little to do with that. What she’s saying is that a man that loves her would value her time and commitment just as he gives his. Because any man can be sexually attracted to you and want sex from you, so women place little value in that. And so, the one that actually loves you is the one that wants commitment from you and values non-sexual time with you.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said. It's pure hypocrisy. I think that this is why Red Pill endorses dread and abundance.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (73 children) | Copy Link

Marriage isn't a transaction. It's a bet. With a 42% chance you'll lose your house, your kids, and half your assets. Sounds like a bad deal to me.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer2 points3 points  (63 children) | Copy Link

That does not make any sense, just because the divorce rate is 42% does not mean every individual has a 42% chance of having their marriage end.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (62 children) | Copy Link

Yeah yeah you can look at specific demographics and get different numbers, we've all heard this argument before.

The thing is it doesn't matter. Even if it was only 30% I still would not take such a substantial risk for so little reward.

It's simple cost/benefit analysis. I gain social status, I guess. I risk my home and at least half my assets. Does that balance out? Fuck no.

It's simply a gamble not worth taking.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (61 children) | Copy Link

It is lower than 30%, it can be very low. The divorce rate itself is being driven by one demographic, I do not except the neurotic risk-adverse people would want to take many chances, the rate can drop below 20% in some instances.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (60 children) | Copy Link

Okay so let's say it's 20% just for the sake of argument.

That's still too high of a risk considering what's at stake. My home and at least half my assets.

Fuck that. Why would I willingly enter into that agreement when I could just... choose not to? And still get laid? Even have girlfriends?

I can get the same thing with 0% risk, so why bother with marriage?

This is why marriage rates have been plummeting for decades.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (53 children) | Copy Link

The rates have been plummeting for decades because people are getting married later in life, it will catch up soon. No one is losing “their” assets, they are losing marriage assets, which are split equitably, that is part of marriage. It does not sound as if there is any incentive for you to personally get, so it is probably not a good idea in your case, but for a lot of other people the benefits are there.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (45 children) | Copy Link

There are benefits for the women in the majority of cases, because she can walk away with a free house and half her ex's assets. Score! I can see why women support marriage. It's in your self-interest to do so.

But you must also understand that from the male perspective it's in our self-interest to avoid that scam and keep our hard earned money, houses, cars, etc.

And I have the choice to do just that. I can have relationships, casual or otherwise, without getting married, easily. There's simply no reason for me to sign up to that absurd amount of risk for no reward.

Also your claim the rates will catch up because people get married later doesn't really hold. It might do if it was only a single decade, but this trend has been going on through multiple decades already, and in fact in the UK at least cohabitation is beginning to replace marriage. Note that there is no common law marriage in the UK either.

I'm afraid fewer people are interested in that outdated institution because all it is in the modern world is a pointless risk.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer2 points3 points  (42 children) | Copy Link

There are benefits for the women in the majority of cases, because she can walk away with a free house and half her ex's assets.

They are not his assets, they are marriage assets, they are divided equitably, the house included. You are just parroting Manosphere rhetoric at this point, the discussion is over.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (41 children) | Copy Link

Lol you seriously think it's "Manosphere rhetoric" to want to keep your own property? Jesus. Talk about entitlement.

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer3 points4 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

Well no, it is not your property, as I tried to explain. Similar to how this is not your argument, it is just one that you read somewhere and have no idea how to justify, that is why I am done engaging with it, there is no useful discussion here.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

How is a jointly own house "his" house or a "free house"? Both member of the marriage lose half the house and half the marital assets (all joint property and assets), if she "keeps the house" then his half was bought out with foregoing of some other assets, at least in the US.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No that is not how it works she doesn’t just “get the house” she gets her equitable share, which is often half. If that mean she gets his equity share in the house it is offset by other marital property. She doesn’t just get a bunch of “free” assets. In other cases the house is sold because the equity can’t be offset.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Under UK law if there are children involved the wife would get 100% of the home even if the husband paid the mortgage in full. I wrote up a big comment about this recently. Here it is. Read it. The source is a law firm specialising in divorce law.

UK divorce law is fucking awful. You'd be an idiot to sign up to that unless you were marrying into an extremely wealthy family or something.

[–]DarkLord0chinChin2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

people are getting married later in life, it will catch up soon

That's not how math works

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Even if it is declining the reason is not because males think it is a bad deal, that is a MGTOW fantasy.

[–]DarkLord0chinChin0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

What is your opinion on this?

[–]Electra_CuteChristian, Flat Earther, Anti-Vaxxer, Astrologer0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Opinion on the marriage rate dropping? I think it will eventually go back up, realistically in my life time. I think it is unfortunate that people are not getting married as much anymore, there is not really a lot in marriage for younger people(especially men) that I can think of.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Why are they your assets? Doesn't your wife contribute anything?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Because I worked for and earned them? Why's that so difficult for some of the women here to understand?

I grew up in a household where it was my mum who was the breadwinner and she earned everything. My dad only had a part-time job and didn't contribute very much.

The higher earner regardless of gender is the one who is providing everything important: paying the mortgage, paying for food, etc.

The lower earner might do a bit around the house, but turning a washing machine on takes 5 seconds. There's no question the breadwinner regardless of gender is the one doing the real work.

It's just that my household was abnormal, and in most cases, the man happens to be the higher earner, so he gets fucked over. Also, regardless of who makes the money, if there's kids involved the woman will get everything anyway. Under UK law that is.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Assets are not affected by child custody in Australia.

And you would only lose half your assets if your wife contributed nothing.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good for Australians.

But doesn't Australia also have common law marriage? Kinda balances out. You can't even cohabitate with a woman without getting scammed.

No wonder MGTOW is growing...

[–]Orange_Paisley0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

My mom was the primary breadwinner as well. It’s not as abnormal as you would think in this day and age.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Probably not especially when women in their 20's are outearning their male counterparts.

But regardless, the point stands. If we remain gender neutral here, the breadwinner owns the stuff because they make the money. Simple.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

And getting worse all the time.

[–]Dweller_of_the_Abyss6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They have altered the deal, pray they don't alter it any further.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's just not worth it.

My uncle is getting divorced right now. And he is gonna lose his house 100% because he has a young child who will go to the mother.

Then again my uncle is also an absolute prick so I don't even feel sorry for him lol. Hope the divorce court takes everything he owns. Daft cunt shows off his new Audi, he'll be lucky if he's pulling up in a used Hyundai next time I see him.

Still unlike my uncle I'm not an idiot and won't be taking such risks.

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Everything in life is a bet :/. I guess it depends on how you choose your spouse. Also, in some countries lawy differs greatly and in case of mine they don't have to lose half of their assets. You can make sure no one gets anything out of it from where I live.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Right most things in life are bets, but it's about the cost/benefit analysis. Marriage does not weigh up.

If I decide to do something else risky like start a business, I could lose the money I invest, but I could also make a huge profit. It's up to me to decide how likely I am to do one instead of the other.

If I get married, I gain a bit of social status, and I could lose my home, my car, half my assets, and if you have kids you will most certainly lose them too if you're a man.

This is under UK law. I don't know about the US or other countries. But divorce law in the UK doesn't exactly make it a good deal.

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

If I get married, I gain a bit of social status, and I could lose my home, my car, half my assets, and if you have kids you will most certainly lose them too if you're a man.

wait, there is no law in UK, where you get to keep your wealth separate? that is pretty bizarre. Furthermore, I think you don't have to marry under the law. You can either cohabitate or marry as in marrying in front of your friends and family :/

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Prenups are toilet paper in the UK. The court doesn't recognise them.

What you're talking about there is cohabitation, which is on the rise while marriage is falling.

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, oh I am not necessarily talking about prenups. From where I live, we have options to separate wealth, even after a couple got married. It cuts lots of hassle actually :)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No such thing here unfortunately.

[–]gasparddelanuit3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Men and women are different. They have different natures and different preferences. Consequently, they have different needs. Men and women are not symmetrical and interchangeable as women or feminists would like to believe. A woman assuming that her man’s needs are or should be the same as her needs is indicative of the solipsism the RP talks about and will lead to problems in the relationship. Allan Peese addresses this issue in the video below (from 8:01).

Allan Pease 'Why men want sex and women need love'

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Have you read my blog?

[–]gasparddelanuit1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Have you read my blog?

No.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I want both. Sex and love

[–]DebatePonyLet's ride!4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I guess you aren't wrong.

I trade my time, resources, and everything about me for his time, resources, and everything about him.

We also trade pokemon at times.

[–]DarkLord0chinChin13 points14 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

We say that because women divorce men who no longer bring money into the family. We say that because women are reluctant to partner with someone who makes less than them and expect the man to bring the money. We say that because having money is something women desire in a partner, despite claiming not to. We say that because women reward men with sex for buying them presents and spending money on them.

Women aren't as wonderful as you are painting them.

[–]Orange_Paisley11 points12 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

These days a lot of women make as much as their men, and sometimes more. We even have house husbands and stay at home daddies. I make more than my partner. I don't care how much money he brings home, as long as it is something. I do care that he has a job, and makes an effort to contribute to our home and our life style. I don't want to support a slacker who doesn't work and stays home and plays video games all day. If he were laid off, I would expect him to look for work (as I would, if the situations were reversed). The exception would be if he were sick or disabled.

[–]youcantdenythatSeriously?2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Stay at home men are quite rare. Women rarely have a relationship with a man that makes less than her.

[–]Orange_Paisley2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My ex-husband was a stay at home Dad for a year but it didn’t work out. It started out great for a couple months but then I would come home to a destroyed house and him still in pjs with our daughter left to fend for herself, and me having to work all day and then come home and cook and clean while he went out because “he was stuck home with the kid all day.” I would never do it again. On the other hand, I make more than my current partner and I’m okay with this, because he works and takes care of his own bills.

[–]youcantdenythatSeriously?1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure it happens, but it certainly isn't common in my experience.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Username checks out on this one.

[–]pinkgoldrose4 points5 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

What's your explanation for the women who make the same amount of money as their partner? It might be a minority, but it's not like there's only a couple in existence. Also, why don't men start caring more about marrying a woman who can bring in money than a woman who's hot? Don't you like having money?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Uh most women are dating men who make the same amount as them. And men do very much care about marrying a woman that can bring in money more than one who is simply hot. The men that only care about a woman's looks are by and large the men that can offer the whole housewife thing which is really the upper class men. Middle and lower class men want and demand women to do their share when it comes to making money.

[–]DarkLord0chinChin1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't need to "explain" anything because I'm not claiming that all marriages are financially transactional. Some marriages are based on attraction, some on fetishes, some on friendships, some on desperation, some on utility and so on.

[–]pinkgoldrose1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Which do you think is better?

[–]DarkLord0chinChin0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

when wife respects the husband and husband loves the wife

[–]pinkgoldrose6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

why not mutual love or mutual respect?

[–]DarkLord0chinChin0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

that just sounds too idealistic

[–]pinkgoldrose1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

also what to do if you don't respect any man but you love them... asking for a friend

[–]DarkLord0chinChin0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure there are plenty of willing men if you want to try it. But it sounds like a mother's love to her son to me. And women don't want to be mommies for grown men from what I was told

[–]Orange_Paisley5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You don't think the wife should love her husband or the husband should respect his wife?

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think I like having a hot girlfriend more than a rich one.

I can make my own cash, I can't MAKE my own hot gf who likes the same shit I do and likes all the weird kinky stuff I do.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I can't MAKE my own hot gf

Japan is working on it.

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but those won't make me coffee, fight with me about who uses the bathroom first, and tell me that I'm a hawt stud

[–]Larry-ManScrew All Y'all2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What about me leaving an LTR as a woman because I wasn’t getting sex?

I wanna get rewarded with sex. I like sex for the sake of sex. If sex is a chore then I don’t wanna do it.

Sex isn’t a thing I give in exchange for anything. If I get gifts I wanna give gifts. If I have friendship I want to give it.

This uneven idea totally confuses the fuck outta me. Like if you hate sex and use it as a reward for someone that’s just fucking weird.

[–]Taipanshimshonhere for the downvotes2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If a man does not consider my time as appropriate "payment" for his time, he doesn't care for my company very much and probably doesn't love me

true. and part of that time is your sexual attraction and all the other things you mentioned.

The transactual nature of any relationship is MOST felt when one partner backs out of their end of the bargain so to speak, while still utilizing all the benefits allotted by the time and therefore energy and resources ( such as time, emotional energy, and yes money) of the other.

[–]rainisthelifeFacepalm 😑2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If a man does not consider my time as appropriate “payment” for his time, he doesn’t care for my company very much and probably doesn’t love me.

I understand what you mean. Especially because this is the way women judge whether or not a man actually loves them. Having a man be sexually attracted to you, isn’t really valuable to most women. So, the man that actually loves and appreciates spending non-sexual time with you, and values your commitment to him, is one that has shown that he loves you. His feelings for you go beyond just sexual, and is what women seek as an indication for love from a man.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

True. I can't even a man who thinks so little of me would even be good company to me anyway.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said.

TL"DR Red pillers are doomed. They kill their own relationships.

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

So.... Sexual Economics Theory/Marital Economics Theory is okay as long as its phrased in female-flattering terms?

Why are you letting your ego get in the way of the analysis? The point is that marriage is a transaction; one party gets something they value from another person in exchange for giving up (to the other person) something they value less than what they get in return. Mutually beneficial exchange.

In addition there are transaction costs to marriage... Bargaining costs, policing/enforcement costs, search costs... and there are Exit Costs too (costs to terminate the contract). There is huge scope for a New Institutional Economics/Transaction Cost Economics analysis of marriage and sex.

Also, what you "offer" the other party is not something you get to define. What they value in you is what you bring to the transaction... this is called Economic Subjectivism. You are the object with respect to what you offer, the other party is the subject (roles are reversed with respect to what they bring to the transaction).

So you may not perceive yourself as selling sex for stuff. That doesn't matter. What matters is what you perceive yourself to be getting out of them, and what they perceive themselves to be getting out of you. Given that there are extremely few men willing to accept a sexless committed relationship, yes, they probably do see at least a non-zero proportion of your value (to them) in terms of sex.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Who said anything about sexless?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

No one, but you seemed highly distressed by the idea that you were trading your body/sexual availability in exchange for resources.

I simply pointed out that if you're in a long-term committed relationship, then you probably are trading your body/sexual availability as part of the package at least (i.e. its one of the things you are offering). Remember, the contents of the package aren't defined by your perception but by what the "buyer" perceives and values within you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

If you think I'm distressed you obviously know nothing commenter snow.

The buyer has told me how much he appreciates my company so I dunno

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

The buyer has told me how much he appreciates my company so I dunno

I never said your company wasn't part of the package you offer (presuming, of course, the buyer was speaking truthfully and without any euphemism/insinuation).

All I said was that sex is part of the package too and its silly to pretend it isn't.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Where did I say it wasn't?

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your OP said you don't "perceive" yourself as trading sex for resources. I'm saying that not only is your perception irrelevant since it is the "buyer" who evaluates what you bring to the transaction, but that unless you're in a sexless relationship with your man and he's okay with it, the "package" you offer includes sex. Just as I'm sure the "package" he offers you (from your perspectives) includes resources.

This doesn't mean you don't really care for each other, or that you're both covertly drawing up spreadsheets of costs and benefits and working out how much it costs him per sex act, or that you secretly hate each other but find each other "good value for money."

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I think he "gives" me sex too though. Then again, in that respect, he's giving, so I dunno

[–]YetAnotherCommenterPurple Pill Man, Sexual Economics Theory1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well of course. The idea women don't enjoy sex is silly. Of course you get something out of it.

The point is that men in general are higher-libido than women, and since we're in a world where rape is prohibited, and we're in a world where men are expected to be the initiators, it is women who decide when an heterosexual man gets laid. So its not so much the sexual pleasure which is being sold, its the access (women are the gatekeepers of sex after all).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

If a man thinks sexual access on demand is something he is going to get, he is going to be disappointed

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah that's why you tell women what they want to hear and the libido goes up

But really I think the difference is that as men we don't value your other contribution sans the sex because we'd be fine living alone and relieving you of all that "burden" that is commitment and work

If I'm living with a woman she's going to want a house not just any house but a nice ass house, then she's gonna need some vacations six times a year. This is worth it if there's sex, if there's no sex I can go live in a box big chillin with a blunt low maintenance

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, not everyone, but I was happy living in my studio apartment on my own. I still look back on those days fondly, and would do it again in a heartbeat next time I find myself single.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist3 points4 points  (54 children) | Copy Link

So telling women that they are paying for a man's commitment with sex is nonsensical. Women already feel as if they are "paying" with the same basic things men are.

And, to boot, perceiving one's body as payment had a tendency to repulse women and kill their libido. If this tone infects the relationship it reduces the chances a woman will make good on the part of the "arrangement"

Alright, then women should stop lying to men that they value his body and sex with him. Time generally shows that they are lying and don't value it, with them either dumping him or dead bedrooming him.

[–]Orange_Paisley8 points9 points  (48 children) | Copy Link

When I've "dead bedroomed", it's because my partner has stopped making an effort to court, woo, or seduce me. Doesn't kiss me, doesn't do foreplay, etc. Just expects sex with none of the fun.

[–]Paranoidexboyfriend0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

How much were you courting, wooing, and seducing the men in these dead bedroom relationships? Why is it on the guy to do all the work of heating up the furnace and setting up the mood for a healthy sex life.

[–]Orange_Paisley4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If I want to have sex with him, I'll break out the sexy nightie or give the surprise blow job, light the candles, etc. If he wants to have sex with me, he should put a little more effort into it than just rolling over and climbing on top of me.

[–]oneprettycoolcat0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Did you consider telling him how you feel? Because as far as I've seen, women rarely want to actually say what's bothering them and just get upset when men aren't mind-readers.

[–]Orange_Paisley1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, and then he felt that I was nagging him and was even less inclined to do the touchy-feely romantic stuff. It became a vicious cycle.

[–]a_mans_perspective 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

And all too often women stop giving sex but still expect courtship, dates, gifts and emotional support.

[–]Orange_Paisley4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Courtship and dates lead to sex though, don't they? That's why we do it.

[–]youcantdenythatSeriously?2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

sounds transactional again

[–]Orange_Paisley1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I don’t consider it transactional, but you do you. In a marriage you both contribute to the household finances so you are both paying for the date.

[–]youcantdenythatSeriously?1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If only... my ex wives always found reasons to quit their jobs and contribute as little as possible.

Why would you need a date to have sex anyway? Again, sounds like a transaction. Ideally sex would be something two people would just enjoy with each other.

[–]Orange_Paisley1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You don’t “need” a date, but they are nice ways to reconnect with your spouse away from the kids and the household chores and work and the daily drudgery. It keeps the romance alive. Btw a date doesn’t need to be a fancy restaurant or cost a lot of money - it can be as simple as a picnic in the park or an evening stroll through the city.

[–]youcantdenythatSeriously?0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

A date needs to be planning and logistics and usually money. I'm sure it's great for the girl, but for the guy it's generally more drudgery.

[–]Orange_Paisley1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It doesn’t need to be planned, other than making sure you have childcare arranged.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist-1 points0 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

When I've "dead bedroomed", it's because my partner has stopped making an effort to court, woo, or seduce me. Doesn't kiss me, doesn't do foreplay, etc. Just expects sex with none of the fun.

Men want their body to be sexually valued. Often in the beginning stages of a relationship, the girl gets wet without foreplay, why do women stop giving THAT to men? Also, I've made girls jump through hoops before for sex with me, and when they didn't I whined with stuff like "why don't you do THIS, THIS, and THIS anymore to seduce me?" but guess what that lead to? Them losing interest in sex. So why is it okay for women to put pressure on men, but whenever the man tries to put that pressure back on them, they dead bedroom him or dump him? It's like a lose/lose for men in either case.

[–]Orange_Paisley4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Do they? I've always suspected that men don't care if their body is sexually valued or not, as long as they are getting sex. If they did care that much, they would be turned off by women who aren't interested, instead of pressuring them for sex anyway. I wouldn't want to have sex with someone who made me jump through hoops, but if a man wants to have sex with me, I would prefer it if he at least kisses me first.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

No, men SETTLE for sex with women who don't value their body, because they don't have a choice: It's either have sex with a girl who doesn't value your body, or your genes fucking die out. The lack of choice is FROM women not valuing men's bodies and when they say they do, it being a lie. A starving person will eat shitty food when they don't have a choice, likewise with this. Men want their body to be valued, that's why they send dick pics, to find a girl who values their BODY.

[–]Orange_Paisley4 points5 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

I think you have issues.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Is MEN being the problem and having issues the reason why lesbian relationships have the highest break-up rates and the lowest rates of sex, while gay relationships have the lowest break-up rates and the highest rates of sex?

[–]Orange_Paisley5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

That is a non sequitur. You appear to dislike women, think they lie, think women should be turned by a man's body and not by his accompanying actions. It's weird and offputting, and you seem angry.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

So it's normal for you to demand your partner kiss, caress, and touch you before sex, but when I do it it's weird and off-putting? Also, why do you think it's okay for women to lie that they value the guy's body? Most women do that if their partner asks them, some even do it unprompted.

[–]Orange_Paisley2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't demand, but I am not as interested in sex if he does not do those things. We don't lie about valuing our men's bodies; we just value other things too.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No, he was actually making a very good point if you had bothered to listen to it, rather than hurl insults.

[–]Orange_Paisley1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What point? All he does is whine about women lying about liking men’s bodies. He does it in every thread. I’m imagining he sent some girl a dick pic and got mad when she didn’t appreciate it.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's a simple point. Yes, men love it when they are valued for their bodies, but many of them never are, so of course they will settle for sex with women who don't value their bodies if that's all they can get.

I have no idea how that relates to him having "issues", it's the way all men are. You're just insulting him instead of arguing against his point. That's called ad hominem.

[–]Orange_Paisley0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have no problem with him saying that men love it when they are valued for their bodies. My problem is with his insistence that women LIE about valuing men’s bodies.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Courting, wooing and seducing are over after the wedding.

Kissing and foreplay are all about attention, not courting, wooing or seducing.

Just expects sex with none of the fun.

Read that sentence again, carefully this time. Is this really what you meant to say?

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

She means to say a penis in her dry unprepared vagina doesn't feel good. And, if she is like most women, it's not going to bring her to orgasm.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Huh. I kind of doubt that. If a woman can't get wet fairly soon after starting foreplay, she's probably not attracted to him.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

This explains so much about your sexual frustration

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

who said anything about me being sexually frustrated?

Your entire post from yesterday explains a lot about your attitudes toward men as well. You obviously hate them (except for your husband). Why you post in PPD, I don't understand

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Of course it does, that's why I said it. It's ok though, the boyz love me :D

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why do you hate men?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't hate men, I have just spent my life around them so close and long I can't think of them as anything but peers. They have no special class or mystery to me.

[–]Orange_Paisley0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But the man in this scenario isn’t giving foreplay. He just wants sex.

[–]Orange_Paisley4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why do you think I don't mean what I am saying? I get turned on by being kissed, caressed, touched. If I'm not turned on, sex isn't that much fun. If he just wants to come and doesn't care if I do, it isn't that much fun.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

are you saying "just expects [intercourse] with none of the fun"?

Is intercourse not fun for you? I'm just trying to understand.

[–]Orange_Paisley5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The fun of intercourse, for me, is connecting with your partner and sharing mutual pleasure. Sharing each other's bodies. Enjoying each other. If he's just having sex with me to get his rocks off and we are not sharing that intimacy, it becomes more like a duty and less of an enjoyable experience. I don't know what your sexual history is like, but certainly you know the difference between a romantic encounter, and having mechanical sex.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Courting, wooing and seducing are over after the wedding.

This seems so un-RP to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't MRP teach to continue seducing your wife and sexualizing your interactions with her?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

And in the very next sentence I said....

Kissing and foreplay are all about attention,

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes I read that part. Do you think kissing and foreplay are "seduction"?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Have you tried hugs?

[–]Raii-v2The Best Pill is Gold2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This is really funny because it's tongue in cheek but still good advice.

Hugs are the start to solving/preventing most intimacy issues.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Tongue in cheek how? Of course hugs are good for you!

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist-3 points-2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The #1 intimacy issue is lack of female attraction towards the man, and hugs just make it worse, because they solidify the guy as more of a friend than a lover.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, they don't fix lack of honesty and transparency of women in relationships or on reddit.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (56 children) | Copy Link

Basically, I think many women are resistant to the idea that they are "selling" their bodies in their relationships because somebody with appropriate self worth and an inner self is not going to think of their body as their primary offering. When you live in that female body, and see out of those eyes, you also experience the passage of time, the hardship of work, and the emotional energy drained into another when needed. So telling women that they are paying for a man's commitment with sex is nonsensical.

It might be nonsensical to you. It makes perfect sense to me.

1) Access to sex is the most valuable thing a woman can offer to me.

2) I can spend time with male friends and get as much as, or more than, I can from spending time with a woman. At least when I spend time with my male friends, I know I won't be expected to foot the bill for me AND them too.

I think the reaction to "I'm paying with sex" is just a visceral objection and taking great personal offense to the idea that a woman's prime value to a man is her sexual attractiveness and access to her for sex. Because the belief apparently is that if we value women for sexual access, then we don't value anything else about women. Which isn't true at all.

Obviously, as a woman's relationship with one particular man grows and changes, other things take on increased prominence. But the fact remains that he selected her, and remains with her, because he finds her sexually attractive and wants sexual access to her. There is nothing offensive or odd or objectionable about this - in fact, if she is attracted to her man, she EXPECTS him to be attracted to her and takes no offense at all to his outward expressions of that attraction, including requesting and having frequent sex.

Once again - her reaction to the "transactional" nature of this entire thing depends on her level of attraction to the man who is the subject of the transaction. As it always, always is.

EDIT: Remember that some of the RP men you're talking to have experience with difficult or rocky marriages because of lack of sexual attraction. You don't seem to understand what that's like at all, and how men see that.

[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL9 points10 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

then we don't value anything else about women. Which isn't true at all.

The ethos and hyperbole of the pillsphere says otherwise.

I find it disingenuous to say "oh, we do value women for more than sex", and yet, entire screeds are written about how worthless women are apart from sex.

yeah yeah I know; anger phase, low value chumps, taking the red pill, blah blah blah, still doesn't justify all that posturing about "useless slime holes".

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

K

I think you're finding the worst parts of the pillsphere and attributing it to everyone. When you dig a little deeper you find that women are valued for more than sex, especially when we're talking about marriage, which was what the OP was talking about.

[–]oneprettycoolcat2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What's bad about valuing people for what you can get out of them?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nothing.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The comments people write are the responsibility of the people that write them. Stop blaming the soup kitchen for the homeless.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

How do you "justify" your posturing about men being worthless if not masculine enough?

[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well I mean, I'm not going on tirades about how worthless dickless dweebs are and then turning around and saying "oh, but I actually do value these dickless dweebs for more than their dickery."

I'm a pretty straight shooter.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Except you are making the typical blue pill fallacy of contrasting two contradictory statements by two different people then claiming it's hypocrisy.

Different people have different opinions...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

So if the preceding statements about women having value are removed, it is acceptable to state that women have no value outside sex?

[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure, knock yourself out.

[–]tallwheelManosphere Unificationist0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, actually, you phrased that wrong. That's not equivalent the way you worded it, and doesn't connect perfectly to /u/notworthmuch20xx 's wording. I'll fix it.

Well I mean, I'm not going on tirades about how worthless dickless dweebs are and then turning around and saying "oh, but I actually do value these dickless dweebs masculine men for more than their dickery masculinity."

And then we can see that we probably get something closer to the truth. In fact, your quote (after fixing it) just made it clear that women do, in fact, also only value certain men for certain things, the way men only value attractive women for sex.

You don't give a shit about "dickless dweebs" (which should be wholly apparent from your wording alone) because they lack the masculine qualities which make attractive men attractive. Thus, they have no value to you. It's pretty damn simple.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Once again - her reaction to the "transactional" nature of this entire thing depends on her level of attraction to the man who is the subject of the transaction.

This doesn’t make any sense. I do not want to be valued for one thing, least of all this very base thing. This has 0 to do with the attractiveness of the man.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (23 children) | Copy Link

I think it does make sense.

are you saying you don't want to be valued for your sexual attractiveness? Because, well, women don't want to be valued for their sexual attractiveness by men they aren't sexually attracted to.

A woman who isn't sexually attracted to a particular man will take extreme offense to that man's valuing her sexual attractiveness. You all don't want unattractive men noticing you sexually, much less valuing you sexually. Or, at least that's how it appears to me.

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

A woman who is attracted to a man will see sex as exchange for sex. As in, sexual pleasure for sexual pleasure.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fair enough. Doesn't really get to the question I asked, though.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I do not want to be solely or primarily valued for sexual attractiveness by any man certainly not one that I value highly. Sexual attractiveness is fleeting and hardly the basis of the life long marriages I see my 90 year old elders enjoying. Is sexual attraction fun and lovely? Sure. But it’s shallow and temporary and tantamount to building a marriage on sand.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Please refer to my initial post where I talked about this.

Obviously, as a woman's relationship with one particular man grows and changes, other things take on increased prominence. But the fact remains that he selected her, and remains with her, because he finds her sexually attractive and wants sexual access to her. There is nothing offensive or odd or objectionable about this - in fact, if she is attracted to her man, she EXPECTS him to be attracted to her and takes no offense at all to his outward expressions of that attraction, including requesting and having frequent sex.

Most men value their women primarily for sexual access, at least at the beginning. That's the entire point of the exercise.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

I don’t see what the timeline has to do with this. The post is about seeing sex as the currency women use in relationships while men use time. Are you saying that the OP is correct and husbands and wives are exchanging time and not men exchanging time for women offering sex?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

The timeline is important because it's marriage we're talking about.

I'm saying she's partly correct, but not really seeing how the attributions of importance to various kinds or types of "time" are determined and why.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Where is someone saying there are “types of time”?

Do you agree a man’s attractiveness has nothing to do with how a woman wants to be valued?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Not really. A woman wants to be valued, but ONLY by attractive men. She couldn't care less what unattractive men think of her.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Once again - her reaction to the "transactional" nature of this entire thing depends on her level of attraction to the man who is the subject of the transaction.

Then you no longer believe this?

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

You can think of it any way you wish. I'm not confident a woman who would see herself this way is a fully formed person.

Moreover, I'm not sure a fully formed person would hitch herself to a man who doesn't find his time with her as rewarding, if not more rewarding than his time with his friends.

If this is the case, I pity the state of being intertwined with a person who is so burdensome and unpleasant, but I haven't found it to be a universal problem.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (18 children) | Copy Link

I don't think a woman does see it this way. I think she doesn't like to face the fact that her prime value to her husband, at least when the marriage starts, is her sexual attractiveness and sexual access to her.

I sometimes ask men to undertake this exercise. You have a choice between two women. The first is a very slightly above average woman who is into you and wants to have sex a lot. The second is a perfect 10, who will have sex with you exactly 3 times during the entire marriage, for the purpose of getting pregnant and having the 3 kids she wants to have.

Which woman do you think most men pick? Of course they pick the first one, because having sex is important to men. I have no idea why women take offense to this.

Of course spending time with her is rewarding. That's part of why most of us marry. But a huge part of why we marry is regular sex with a woman who actually wants us.

I think this entire post is a lengthy objection to Red Pillers frankly acknowledging the fact that the prime value a woman offers to a man is sexual access; and taking offense to the prominence that Red Pill men put on sex in their lives.

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

The question is not how much the values sex relative to other things. If anything, I would say it falls behind quality time if the desire is met. A healthy man who isn't at his peek testosterone levels is not necessarily constantly. Say you spent 45 minutes having sex 3-4 times a week. You will spend multiples more time with interacting with you partner nonsexually than sexually in a typical relationship. I am inclined to think the overemphasis on sex comes from a place of not having it, rather than value. Food is cheap until your starving.

But given we are discussing time spent, this begs the question why a man thinks his nonsexual time is worth more than a woman's nonsexual time, since the these two items are being necessary exchanged in equal amounts.

Nobody here is saying sex isn't important. Nobody here is saying sex isn't important. Nobody here is saying sex isn't important. Nobody here is saying sex isn't important. Nobody here is saying sex isn't important. Nobody here is saying sex isn't important.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Please stop with the sneering, dismissive and condescending repetition with the last paragraph. Stop pretending my posts here have been unreasonable. I've been more than reasonable here.

The question is not how much the values sex relative to other things.

I don't understand this. On the contrary, the question of what value sex has in relation to other things is paramount. Parties bring differing things of differing value to relationships. And parties assign higher values to some things than to others. Usually, the man values sexual access to her more than he values other things.

But given we are discussing time spent, this begs the question why a man thinks his nonsexual time is worth more than a woman's nonsexual time, since the these two items are being necessary exchanged in equal amounts.

Yes, the man and woman spend most of their time not having sex. But a marriage is a sexual relationship. It's premised on sex - the differing genders and the attraction that creates, or should create. If the sexual attraction foundation isn't there, everything else will be affected adversely.

A man thinks his nonsexual time is worth more because, well, most of the time that's the value a woman assigns to it. She values commitment from him because with that commitment, she has prime "dibs" on his time. It's valuable to her. Less valuable to her is her sexual access to him. Yes, she values it, or she should. She values his time and commitment more.

Her time is less valuable to him than sexual access is. He puts more value on sexual access. Yes, he values nonsexual time with her. At least at the beginning, he values sexual access to her more.

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Why would a fully formed woman marry a man who does not value her commitment and time in an open market place?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Where are you getting the idea that the man marrying her DOES NOT value her commitment and time?

He DOES value those things. But he values sexual access more. At least at the beginning. Or, more accurately, he puts a higher value on the sexual component of the relationship than she does, most of the time.

Where are you getting the notion of "if he puts any value on sex, any at all, then he puts no value at all on her commitment and time"? Where is this coming from? Why do you see this as all or nothing, or as BiggerD would say, "black and white"?

Nobody here is saying a woman's commitment or time are worthless. Nobody here is saying a woman's commitment or time are worthless. Nobody here is saying a woman's commitment or time are worthless. Nobody here is saying a woman's commitment or time are worthless. Nobody here is saying a woman's commitment or time are worthless.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Non sexual time is being exchanged. Why is her nonsexual time worth less than his?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Because that's the value SHE puts on it. She puts more value on his nonsexual time than he puts on her nonsexual time.

Why? Because men value sexual time more than nonsexual time. It's just worth more. Men can get nonsexual time from anyone. They don't have to worry about getting nonsexual time from friends, coworkers, clients, bosses, whomever.

Why? Because women value nonsexual time more than sexual time. It's just worth more to them. Women can get sex anytime they want. They don't have to worry about getting sex. What they CAN'T usually get is a man's nonsexual time, without "feeling pressured" to give up sex outside the context of commitment.

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Men can get nonsexual time from anyone. They don't have to worry about getting nonsexual time from friends, coworkers, clients, bosses, whomever.

And women can't? Women tend to have more robust social networks outside of their relationships.

Again, why would a woman in an open market hitch herself to a man who values her time less than he values hers?

[–]a_mans_perspective 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Look its pretty simple. How does a woman feel when her husband no longer wants anything to do with her except for sex? Used? Mistreated? Feels like the foundation of the relationship is just not there?

This is the same way a man feels when his wife stops wanting to do anything with him sexually.

"It's not one-sided because I still give you my own time and emotional intimacy" is a bad argument. Equivalent to an emotionally distant husband saying " it's not one-sided because we both cum."

[–]figthief 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I get what you're saying. I'm just not coming at this from a place of deprivation and thirst. I said nothing about sex not occurring.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is it wrap this thread up now

[–]ItsYough1231 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Every relationship consists of transactions of some sort. That includes friendships and any business relationships. You hang out with your mates because they make you feel good and vice versa. Surely that's a transaction? You get married because you enjoy each others company and like having sex.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Most of lot of what you say is completely, but the flip side is that if sex doesn't exist in the relationship, thats a weak relationship. It is a crucial element and a deal breaker. And if it isn't there, the man won't be there for long or he will be having sex with someone else.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I agree with this for the most part. But a marriage that extends til death will probably encompass those twilight years where penetrative sex might not even be possible.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not only is penetrative sex unlikely, but both partners will have lost libido. Sex just won't be important for a man then, either unless he has a bag of viagra - in which case I feel sorry for the woman.

. But I do think that women underestimate the validation it gives a man in a committed relationship. It can be absolutely demeaning. I suspect that this is why a lot of men go outside of marriage for sex - mainly to prostitutes

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I got married on the weekend. We make each other happy, full stop. No power games, no transactions, it's just that I like having her around and she likes being with me. We decided to make it a permanent arrangement.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Until it stops.

[–]PostNationalismex-PUA0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

YOU Are going to die

me too

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Aww congrats! Glad you like spending time with your woman, I would hate to think of a man being tied to a woman he doesnt enjoy!

[–]darla101 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course women are resistant to the idea that they are 'selling' their bodies in their relationships. That is so pathetic and sad for BOTH the man and the woman. Do you think men who purport to love their wives WANT starfish sex? They want a wife who loves them and is enthusiastic about fucking them. Yes relationships are transactional. IMO, the ideal transaction involves a delicate push/pull (because it can't be all comfy ALL the time) that fosters desire for both parties. I feel sad for women who think sex with their husbands is a duty. I feel even sadder for the husbands.

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[–]LittleknownfactsVaguely Uncivil Comment6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well said.

[–]philomexaIF THE POISON WON'T TAKE YOU MY DOGS WILL1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yessss, to all of this.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I’ve always seen marriage more like choosing the person who you want to spend the rest of your life with and who you think is worthy of raising a family with rather than some sex/money transaction.

[–]1UPZ_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

**Potentially...

But these days, lots of couples do it for tax incentives and... financial reasons.

[–]passepar2t0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Marriage has always been a transaction but it changed. Like it used to be a transaction between two extended families. Now it's more a transaction between individuals.

The coin being exchanged on both sides is effort. Effort is the general resource can be expressed as sex, spending time with them, emotional support, etc.

When kids appear, the whole thing changes and becomes about the kid but I've never had kids so I can't ruminate on it.

[–]newName543456went volcel0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

However, I think if you gut the relationship like a house, rip out the drywall and insulation and get it down to it's bones, there is a transactional element to all relationships, even if it is subconscious.

Agreed.

It doesn't comply with BP dogmas of "true love and commitment" though, hence many posters react harshly to it as they way to combat cognitive dissonance.

BTW since sex frequency seems to go down in LTRs, if you calculated, how often each encounter would cost given total poured resources, you'd often find using escorts is cheaper, even high-end ones.

And, to boot, perceiving one's body as payment had a tendency to repulse women and kill their libido.

Maybe if guy was not a good fuckboy to begin with.

Many women had fuckboys at some point in their lives and were perfectly fine with that setup.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Traditionally actually re: the marriage contract the most valuable thing a woman offers to a man is in fact not sex or companionship but her womb and the bearing of his child. As everyone also knows here marriage was originally strictly a business transaction between families - concepts such as love, chemistry, affection and romance had no place between the lines or otherwise.

[–]rovad_0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If she's not with him cause she's sexually attracted to him (in which case the transaction would be equal per se) then she is in it for something extrinsic, and vice versa the man will never be in a relationship without sexual attraction so that's what he's ultimately after first and foremost. Women can accept no attraction, albeit begrudgingly, but men cannot just by virtue of how the code is written.

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Sex for commitment as a trade just assumes that each partner wants one more than the other, which they usually do. I think there will be few marriages where the man will be less pushy about sex than the woman

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

A man in love desires the commitment of the object of love, even if he is not experiencing a dearth of options.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Does he want it more than she does?

(actually he probably does)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No. A man in love desires sex from the object of love.

Commitment comes later, when he decides he wants to have her for himself and doesn't want others having sex with her.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Commitment comes later, when he decides he wants to have her for himself and doesn't want others having sex with her.

Ya

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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