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67

On a previous thread I noticed a discussion between /u/mgtownigga and /u/wtknight.

/u/wtknight argued that guys who stop being friends with girls that they rejected aren't really that nice and are punishing the women in those scenarios while /u/mgtownigga was arguing about guys having to emotionally protect themselves and shouldn't have to subject themselves to watching a girl they have feelings for fucking other dudes.

Generally these types of situations involve a guy who either thinks that romantic/sexual relationships evolve from platonic relationships OR he was just friends with a girl and over time he had feelings for her. In either scenario he decides to take her out on a date and she rejects him. How is he the bad guy for not wanting distance especially if its not of spite but just out of a sense of him needing space.


[–]EsauTheRed 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

I've had a woman resist a sexual relationship which I was VERY upfront about but still want to be friends, expressing disappointment when I said that our friendship would not be as involved and that I would not treat her or do things for her as I previously had, as those are things I would like to reserve for a girlfriend, who later flip flopped and ambiguously suggested there might be some potential to the relationship but that she just wasn't ready. There was definitely initial interest early on, when I held her and picked her up she went beet-red and was warm to the touch, I had an idea of why she didn't want to have sex with me (she was a virgin, I lived far from her, we met online) but she should have respected my time and effort and let me go (I was very into her and pushed very hard, probably scared her off and killed the attraction)

Women lead men on all the time, women love the attention and favors a man who is interested in them gives to them, if they can get it without giving back why shouldn't they?

[–]mgtownigga23 points24 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

that last section is something bloops dont understand or willfully ignore. It seems like every girl here is an exception, and you know what? I'll give them that benefit of the doubt. But irl there are a lot of girls that like the attention and friendship they get from guys that want something more, and they will fight to continue it. Why this is controversial is beyond me. I thikn imma make a topic on here asking bloops whehter or not they think women are ever truly at fault, or that there are groups/types of women that engage in toxic behavior, because it always seems like they default to the women being beyond reproach and the guy being at fault and doing things wrongly. there is never any shared blame in these discussions, or an admission that women can ever be at fault, equally or moreso.

Fucking tiring is what it is

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

that last section is something bloops dont understand or willfully ignore. It seems like every girl here is an exception, and you know what? I'll give them that benefit of the doubt.

I don't give most women on PPD the benefit of doubt, because of their behavior, like sexually harassing men, and willfully ignoring other women when they do it to men, but being outraged when men copy those exact statements that those women used, and use them against women. They are NOT exceptions, them saying they are is just virtue signaling, because people on the internet who don't know them in real life can't prove otherwise.

I'm willing to bet a lot of the "special snowflakes" on ppd have actually done those things to men, but either "forgot" it and are lying to themselves that it didn't happen (women are good at lying to themselves), or are too embarrassed to admit it.

[–]YesICanWhoopUrAssRedskins4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It seems like every girl here is an exception, and you know what? I'll give them that benefit of the doubt.

Your mistake is giving ANY woman the benefit of the doubt.

[–]mgtownigga0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

for the sake of civil argument, it seems like a good idea. I'm not here to just flamewar with the women/members because it's a discussion sub.

[–]Battle-Scars0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That'll be a good topic.

[–]storffish29 points30 points  (69 children) | Copy Link

...does this happen? do chicks demand that delusional dudes who were hoping to inspire them to fuck through the magic of friendship "stay friends?" is everyone autistic now? damn. ghost the bitch.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch35 points36 points  (50 children) | Copy Link

I don't think they demand it, but I bet quite a few young women say things like "but I really hope we can still be friends!" or "but your friendship means so much to me".

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards9 points10 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

I say that and mean it but I respect it if they don't see it the same way. (if they are a real friend and not a niceguytm, if they're a niceguytm i try my best to reject them politely but i won't say we can stay friends)

[–]shoup88Report me bitch12 points13 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I believe they mean it, too, and even think they might be softening the blow that way. Still hurts the person hearing it though.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards13 points14 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I mean what are we supposed to say? "Leave and never talk to me again?"

They made their offer, I make my counter offer, if they want it, take it, if they don't want it, leave it.

[–]mgtownigga11 points12 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't really have an issue with a light statement at the outset, but what i've often seen is the women guilt trip the guy for days, weeks, months after the fact, saying I miss you, I miss talking to you, and so on and so forth. It's really hard for men in that situation when receiving that sort of thing. If you dont do this - great! - but a lot of women do.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Why don't you block them?

[–]mgtownigga1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

i did, eventaully, but I was more desperate and naive back then.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because denying someone you've fallen for (and whom you more or less subconsciously hope might change her mind) something she ostensibly deeply desires is so easy /s

Also, do some additional reading regarding the Sunk Cost Fallacy.

The thing is: blocking etc. only becomes easily doable once you've already made up your mind that you never want to see her again. And at that point it doesn't matter what she thinks and says or whether she does anything at all.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Girl, you can say whatever you want. It's a shitty situation.

[–]Dweller_of_the_Abyss1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean what are we supposed to say? "Leave and never talk to me again?"

Yes.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

leave and never talk to me again

That would be hard af, much respect to such bad bitches. Would save tons of time for all involved

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean what are we supposed to say? "Leave and never talk to me again?"

you don't have to say anything specific. You can simply say see you around, best wishes, and just stop contact.

[–]mgtownigga2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hate to break it to you, but teh way you operate isn't the same as teh way every other girl operates. It's shocking to realize that i know

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

(if they are a real friend and not a niceguytm, if they're a niceguytm i try my best to reject them politely but i won't say we can stay friends)

But how would you know they are a niceguytm if you haven't given them the chance to be friends?

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If they are already my friend then I say "let's stay friends if you want". If they're not already my friend I just say "sorry, but I don't think we're a match," and leave it at that.

[–]BPremiumMeh2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Spoiler: They don't mean that shit and they wish you'd go the fuck away, preferably forever.

[–]WhiskersNTreddish purp5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Man some people have such a negative frame

It's sad

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't mean that shit and they wish you'd go the fuck away, preferably forever.

Sometimes they do though. I have seen some of my nerd friends from back in college where girls got them to do like small favors and shit.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Unfortunately no.

There are basically four groups of women.

  • the first is as you say, but will probably also be transparent about it. For example by laughing in your face for opening up to them (these are the mean ones), though things like ghosting on you or reducing interaction without saying anything are also possible reactions (these are the shy ones or those who don't know what to say).
  • the second group doesn't really care. They're polite and prefer to be on reasonably good terms with people around them, and the offer to "stay friends" is also made in that spirit: she doesn't really want to be friends or particularly values having you around, but she also doesn't really want to to antagonize you.
  • the third group are those who enjoy the perks of having admirers and orbiters, but doesn't really give a shit about you.
  • the fourth group are those who truly appreciate the "friendship", but possibly do so in a very twisted way (for example she appreciates it precisely because of the mechanics that come with an orbiter/orbitee-relationship). In her own mind she cares about you, but ultimately cares more about how you make her feel (valued, lovable, admired) and doesn't give a shit about how you feel (because if that was the case, she wouldn't insist on keeping such a friendship going)

Though girls in between two adjacent groups are also possible.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel like 90% of women I've encountered are in the second group. Though one thing I've noticed is that the whole friendship thing matters way more in continuous social circles.

I've lived in a huge city and in a small town and in the huge city group two was the default tacit understanding of the situation from both sides. The other groups seem to show up way more in the smaller town where there's less space to move on to. I imagine that's true in micro in places like high school or university.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like 90% of women I've encountered are in the second group.

They may very well be the majority, and most certainly are together with the first group. However, even if we assume that groups 3+4 are the minority, this still doesn't change that it sucks big time if you get into their orbit.

Personally I'd say it's hard to pin down how often friendzoning exactly happens because cases where a woman basically keeps a guy at arm's length usually don't register to such an extent: if I kept track of every woman who didn't have the hots for me, I would have a lot of record keeping to do.

Unfortunately, with friendzoning, it's like with job applications or relationships. It doesn't really matter how often your rejected, you only have to win out once in order to be happy. With friendzoning it's quite similar - regardless of how many women show a guy their disinterest, a single woman who is able to get their clutches into him and string him along is enough to make his life miserable (without even wanting to do so) for months or maybe even years.

[–]wracky272RPG's are fun-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They're protecting their own reputation, they don't give a shit about your feelings.

[–]storffish1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

does it, though, with the knowledge that he only wanted to fuck? sounds like an emotional kneejerk.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why do you assume he only wants to fuck, rather than pursue a romantic relationship?

But regardless of what he really wants, I think this is how many women respond. They say his friendship means so much to them - doesn't really matter if it's true for the sake of the post.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Translation: Let's act like adults and skip the stalking/tyre slashing/bad mouthing.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think that's the minority of lovesick suckers. Most just get sad.

[–]disposable_pants-1 points0 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

They say that, he says no, he becomes the bad guy to their mutual friends.

It's not an explicit demand, but it is a "Nice friends you got there -- it'd be a shame if they all thought you were an asshole".

[–]shoup88Report me bitch4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I don't think that in the moment when women say that, they're using it as a threat. I think they're trying to diffuse the situation or let the guy down easy.

[–]disposable_pants-1 points0 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

If you're not conscious that you're making a threat, does that make it any less of a threat to the person you're threatening?

Say you beat people up when you get pissed off. Naturally, some of your friends don't want to be your friend anymore and this comes up in discussion. You beg them to remain your friends, and they know that if they say no you'll get pissed, and when you get pissed...

Are you threatening them? Not consciously, but they know how things will play out if they say no. It's the textbook definition of abusive behavior.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

If it's unconscious, then it's obviously not the same thing as saying "Nice friends you got there -- it'd be a shame if they all thought you were an asshole". Your comment illustrates intent. If it's unconscious, there is no intent.

Comparing it to a man who regularly beats people up is pretty weak. What exactly is the women doing in this analogy that's meant to be represented by beating people up?

And no, it's not the textbook definition of abusive behaviour. It wouldn't even pass muster under urban dictionary's standards.

You're slipping.

[–]disposable_pants-1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

What exactly is the women doing in this analogy that's meant to be represented by beating people up?

Telling their mutual friends he's an asshole who tried to befriend her just because he wanted to get in her pants.

And no, it's not the textbook definition of abusive behaviour.

What abusers do -- some of them unconsciously -- is tell their victims that they want X behavior, and then if they don't get X behavior they beat them up. The causal relationship between not doing X and getting beat up is crystal clear to the victim, even if the abuser just sees it as losing their temper and they swear they'll never do it again.

It only takes getting burnt by the "he just wanted to get in my pants" line once or twice for the consequences of turning down a friendship to be equally clear to rejected men. She may not know exactly what she's threatening, but he knows, and the threat is real.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Telling their mutual friends he's an asshole who tried to befriend her just because he wanted to get in her pants.

Why assume that the women in question has necessarily done this multiple times before?

Ugh, bad mouthing a former friend is not abuse. Words have meaning, and you're diluting them until they're worthless. Like a feminazi crying "he raped me with his speech!".

[–]disposable_pants0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Why assume that the women in question has necessarily done this multiple times before?

Because All Women Are Like That. Or at least it's better to assume they are and be proven wrong than to naively think this one is different and get burned yet again.

Ugh, bad mouthing a former friend is not abuse.

Beating up a former friend is not abuse. Forcing your "friend" into a holding pattern where they have to do X, Y, and Z or risk getting beat up is abuse.

Whether or not you view friendzoning as abuse comes down to whether you think speech can be abusive. I tend to think it's not, so I wouldn't call tacitly forcing someone into the friendzone abusive. I'm using abuse as a comparison to illustrate how one can threaten without fully realizing that they're being threatening. Comparisons don't have to be between ideas that are 100% congruent in every way. I'm not saying "friendzone = abuse".

[–]shoup88Report me bitch0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Because All Women Are Like That. Or at least it's better to assume they are and be proven wrong than to naively think this one is different and get burned yet again.

This is why your comparison to a man who you know has beaten up a ton of people is so weak. You had to modify it to show an established history of a behaviour to make your position more reasonable.

I'm using abuse as a comparison to illustrate how one can threaten without fully realizing that they're being threatening.

No, you did not use abuse as a comparison. You said this is under the textbook definition of abuse. Do you know what that phrase means?

[–]alcockell-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So the "friendship" is in effect protection money.

[–]disposable_pants0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much. "Do what I want or I'll make your life harder".

[–]Battle-Scars-1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Those two sentences are so cringy.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, completely lacking in any self awareness or empathy. Even worse if they say "awww" first.

Like how cute, you like like me. So adorable. But never.

[–]Battle-Scars3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Now, can you mow my lawn for me, frieeeennd?

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Come on. When has that ever happened?

[–]shoup88Report me bitch6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I'm not assigning any malice or ulterior motive to these women. I believe they think they're making it easier.

[–]Battle-Scars2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

See: Hyperbole

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Come on. When has that ever happened?

A lot. If it hadn't happened, TRP probably wouldn't exist.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So the world would be better?

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So the world would be better?

Better for men who get used by women.

[–]BPremiumMeh0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

replace lawnmower for errand chauffeur or something, and youd be surprised

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Even worse if they say "awww" first.

Haha, good one, lol.

[–]caesarfecitPurple Pill Man7 points8 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

It's called the human temptation to have your cake and eat it too.

On a side note though, and this may not be fair. But the language here strikes me as a common BP tactic - rather than admit RP is/was right about something, act like it was self-evident and every right thinking person knew it at the time.

[–]storffish2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I've never had a chick try to demand friendship, it sounds like a strawman. if she did I wouldn't pay it any attention because that sounds like some mental illness shit.

[–]caesarfecitPurple Pill Man2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

"Demand" is the wrong word. "Expect" is more accurate. In the same way that many men expect, often unreasonably, sex on the first date.

[–]storffish5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

yes, because women can't relate to the way men desire them. that said, her expecting something of him isn't intrusive in the way demanding is. she can expect all she wants.

[–]caesarfecitPurple Pill Man1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lol then we get told we're fake nice guys and all we want is sex/think we're entitled to it, when we say we don't give a damn about what she expects.

[–]storffish3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

it depends on the guy and his motivations. some guys act like they just want to be friends because they're too pussy to ask her out and they're hoping she'll make the first move. when it turns out they want sex too they look like pricks. some try and get rebuffed and keep following her around (which she's happy to oblige) because they can't rip the band-aid off.

[–]alcockell1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or maybe because they had been taught that this was the only honourable way to approach?

[–]aznphenix0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But the language here strikes me as a common BP tactic - rather than admit RP is/was right about something, act like it was self-evident and every right thinking person knew it at the time.

I mean, maybe it comes off that way, but a lot of the stuff this is said about is kind of common knowledge. Most nice guys aren't actually Nice Guys TM, and most girls who say 'just be friends' aren't demanding it, they're offering it as an option because they enjoyed the friendship.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah it happens...

I saw it happen once when a friend of mine turned some dude down and he didn't want to be friends, she talked a lot of shit about him not being able to handle friendships with women.

It happened to me when for some reason I fell back in love with an ex, she was seeing someone and we had this heated talk when I was like 'I feel about you the way I do and I'm convinced we can't manage our way through it and have a friendship' She was adamant we could and didn't take kindly to it. That was the last time I saw her.

Neither of them were 'demanding' about it but they definitely both reacted pretty negatively to it and those are the only two times in my life I've encountered this topic so my own record for 'ok no friendship that's fine' is 0 for 2.

*puts on evopsych armchair hat

The objection feels vaguely rooted in 'well how's this tribe going to work without the betas?'

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

he didn't want to be friends, she talked a lot of shit about him not being able to handle friendships with women.

LOL, Its funny because the reverse is true for when girls just have casual sex. There are fuck buddies I had back in college where we never really did anything meaningful together, but they would say I was such a sweet guy.

[–]trail221 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I've heard women say , well he didnt really like me if he doesnt want to be friends.

[–]storffish3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

if he just wanted to fuck her that's probably true. if he wanted a relationship he liked her too much

[–]trail22-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So thats what goldilocks and th three bears was about. I knew I hated her for a reason.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No they don't, because it's awkward as hell.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It happens or at least it used to among young girls, who I've seen get really hurt that the dude bails on the "friendship" after. However most of them figure out by the end of high school or at least college that it's ridiculous.

I had one girl do this in high school. She took it very personally and I really truly wasn't even mad at her, I just wasn't gonna come over to her house, arrange time for her etc if she wasn't DTF. I even agreed her reason for rejecting me made sense. She repeatedly told me I could do better than the girls I was dating. My response was "lol I know"

[–]storffish0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

...ok so her feelings were hurt. doesn't sound like she demanded that you continue to be her friend.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, they weren't just hurt she was arguing and mad about not getting her way, IE entitled

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards12 points13 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

How often do women demand guys stay friends with them? Most women say "I offer my friendship if you want to take it, but if you prefer not to we will let you go."

It's not like women are stalking men and saying "be my friend" after friendzoning them.

[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man18 points19 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Ive seen women lash out "you were never my real friend! " on this guys

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Well, observing that he was never really her friend isn't the same as demanding he still go through the motions of friendship. It's an outburst of hurt. Friendship is very important to women and it sucks when you realize someone you thought liked your company platonically didn't actually at all.

[–]FairlyNaiveRed Pill Man7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And this is PPD in a nutshell. When we discuss nice guys lasg out on girls who refuse to date them we see team blue state that they are entitled mofos and team red state that they are just hurt because they were denied something of importance to them. Then we switch genders...

[–]Casshern1973Purple Pill Man 43 yo0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

You have no complete control over your feelings, when they tell you she's the perfect partner you cannot unsee it.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Who is they?

[–]Casshern1973Purple Pill Man 43 yo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The feelings

[–]Bloodypalace-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Those things are not mutually exclusive. Somebody can enjoy somebody else's company platonically and then develop feelings over time.

[–]mgtownigga1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yuuuup. they can't stand losing you in a lot of instances, have had it happen in the past

[–]single_use_accTaupe Enema8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

They don't demand it. God, you think women ever do anything directly?

No, what you do is make it clear that any man who refuses to be friends with you after you reject him is a Nice Guy, and therefore a manipulative creep.

[–]disposable_pants2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

is a Nice Guy, and therefore a manipulative creep.

And he gets labeled as such to their mutual friends. It's a "Nice friends you have there -- It'd be a shame if they thought you were an asshole" scenario.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Definitely saw this happen once - I think it's a bigger deal than one might think if a guy has any sense of identity about being on the right side of womens' issues. If that's the case then that sort of thing is just a straight up attack on someone's identity.

[–]single_use_accTaupe Enema1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women don't attack problems directly; rather, they create circumstances where the problem gets fixed by someone else and can't be blamed on them, or try to set it it up that if a problem does occur it can't be traced to them.

I think it's a bigger deal than one might think if a guy has any sense of identity about being on the right side of womens' issues. If that's the case then that sort of thing is just a straight up attack on someone's identity.

Remember: male feminists only exist at the pleasure of women. And that, my friend, is oppression. Women can take that status and identity away from men at any time, with zero penalty to themselves.

You can't be a male feminist unless you accept that all women get to hold a loaded gun to your head - and I do mean all women.

Hell, look at Joss Whedon.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the majority of guys that want to stay friends after the rejection still secretly hope that they can change her mind over time.

[–]boredthenyoureboringMr. 662 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not like women are stalking men and saying "be my friend" after friendzoning them.

It’s not explicit like that, demand was a strange word for the OP to use honestly. Sometimes it’s things like calling when(and possibly ONLY when) they need a favor, or using the offer of hanging out to soften the blow of asking for a favor. I don’t even think these things are really conscious decisions(all the time).

So you’re in this weird situation where you’re trying to back off out of embarrassment and respecting that she rejected you, and then you get a text:

“Heyyyy wanna come over to my apartment for drinks?”

And what are you supposed to think? She knows how you feel, and she still offered, this looks like a great sign, right? Maybe she started thinking about it and how much fun you have together and maybe you wouldn’t be so bad a boyfriend after all. So you agree.

“Great! Can you pick up 2 bottles of wine on your way here?”

You’re too excited to see the red flag. You pick up the wine(you even remembered her favorite). But when you get there she says she doesn’t really feel like drinking quite yet, but you can go ahead and have some. You awkwardly watch a few episodes of whatever she was watching before you got there, until she says she’s gotta get ready because her date is coming over. 2 days later you realize you paid $45 for some other guy to get laid.

I mean yeah, in the end, it’s still kinda your own fault. But it’s also kind of a dick move on her part.

[–]mgtownigga2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

i've definitely had women try to keep me as a friend and freak the fuck out when I grew a pair and started distancing.

[–]ThorLivesSkeptical Purple Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's an example of women shaming men for not wanting to be "just friends". I've seen it a number of times: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4a/62/c0/4a62c0ad039e39099bbace7025260449--girl-friendship-friendzone.jpg

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think big variable is maturity. I can't really imagine a mentally healthy adult woman demanding friendship from anyone but situations like that are never free of -some- turbulence and it just usually takes a way less severe form of OP Title.

[–]newName543456went volcel3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right.

Women are not owed friendships with guys just like guys aren't owed sex with women.

[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He is not a bad guy. I had a man get mad at me after we broke up because he wanted to be friends and I said bah bro. People are not obligated to be romantic partners or friends we all make our choices and none of that requires the seal of approval from anybody.

[–]Butt-Factory4 points5 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

If I reject a guy, I generally prefer that he leaves me alone. I've never been aware of anyone I know demanding friendship from men they've rejected.

[–]Casshern1973Purple Pill Man 43 yo5 points6 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

The world is big, but probably most women who do that do not mean evil, they are just naïve and they think "if we like each other as people why not keep on going out together"? It is probably very young women

[–]Butt-Factory4 points5 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Even in my thirties, I've been in situations when I'm bummed that a guy wants to cut ties after making his feelings for me known, and I think that's a common experience for many women. Being bummed out about losing a friend isn't the same as demanding they remain friends with you. You could just as easily say that men who ask me out are demanding dates. Wanting something is not the same as demanding it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Being bummed out about losing a friend isn't the same as demanding they remain friends with you. You could just as easily say that men who ask me out are demanding dates. Wanting something is not the same as demanding it.

Right but wanting something from someone while knowing your not giving in return what they want is a bit selfish. But I guess women don't understand the male sex drive.

[–]Butt-Factory1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Right but wanting something from someone while knowing your not giving in return what they want is a bit selfish. But I guess women don't understand the male sex drive.

So, men who want sex and dates from women are selfish?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

So, men who want sex and dates from women are selfish?

If they want it from a said woman who does not want it from them yes that is selfish and entitled. But not in general of course not.

It's basically the savior complex of the nice guy "Oh just wait, she is gonna see those bad boys are trash and choose me instead, I will save her!"

[–]Butt-Factory1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

And what, exactly, does this entitled behavior have to do with male sexuality?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No clue, your the one that brought up men.

[–]Butt-Factory1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But I guess women don't understand the male sex drive.

This. This doesn't mean anything.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This. This doesn't mean anything.

Sure it does. Women whom get upset about men not wanting to be friends with them after rejection don't understand how men value sexual interactions much more than friendship.

[–]YesICanWhoopUrAssRedskins-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

But I guess women don't understand the male sex drive.

They understand it perfectly. That's why they get mad when a man bails on that "friendship" bullshit; they can't get free shit from him anymore.

[–]mashakosMastered Himself, Mastered The Pussy0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Even in my thirties, I've been in situations when I'm bummed that a guy wants to cut ties after making his feelings for me known,

OP's entire post is badly worded but he does have a point... sort of.

A well adjusted woman like yourself would be bummed out and that is normal. You also would keep the whole situation private, maybe talk about it with a close friend as a thing that sucks. It ends there.

There's a certain type of woman however, who would go out of her way to let everyone in the social group know that guy X made a move on her and decided to "be an ass" by keeping a distance painting him in a very negative light.

Essentially a breach of confidence.

Nothing wrong with feeling sad over the loss of a friendship. How people respond to that situation decides whether they are being selfish or not.

[–]neofauPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Being bummed out about losing a friend isn't the same as demanding they remain friends with you. You could just as easily say that men who ask me out are demanding dates. Wanting something is not the same as demanding it.

You are right being upset about rejection is not a demand, until you start shaming and pressuring the other party. Which is what these paticular aforementioned women or "nice guystm" do, which is why I wrote demand in the OP.

[–]Butt-Factory5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

right, and my point is that I rarely see this shaming behavior. Most men who are rejected by a romantic interest don't lash out and attempt to shame the object of their desire for refusing them, even if he is very disappointed. Most women don't shame men who choose to withdrawal after being rejected, even if she's very disappointed. They might express their desired outcome "I wish that you would reconsider my offer/ consider remaining friends", they might even be visibly and vocally upset, but demanding is not normal or common.

[–]ThorLivesSkeptical Purple Pill Man0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Butt-Factory1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

obviously it happens sometimes. I've been shamed for not drinking alcohol, that doesn't mean it's a big issue. Normal people don't behave that way.

[–]TheBookOfSeilCuckleberry Finn3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it's "entitlement" to want friends. There was a lack of communication/Someone was not forthcoming about what they wanted. That's all.

If you want a relationship, learn to communicate this BOTH VERBALLY AND NON-VERBALLY!

Also, SPEAK UP!

If your actions say "friend" and you don't mention "relationship," friend is the assumed position.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

women who do this, don't want to be your friend. They want to be the ones who did the good thing by "letting" you stay friends

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Demands? Isn't it usually something like "but we can stay friends" or "let's just be friends" which will be followed up with "oh no I was just being polite. I have no intention of staying/being friends with you" if he agrees

[–]neofauPurple Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I was referring to situations were she still wants to be a part of your life, still flirts with you, and keep you investing time and energy even though she rejected the guy.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I was referring to situations were she says she still wants to be a part of your life but doesn't mean it, you're still delusional as ever and imagining she flirts with you, and keep you investing time and energy even though she rejected the guy, because you can't take a hint?

FTFY

[–]mgtownigga 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

yeah women never mislead and keep guys on the line because theyr'e lonely or want to retain the friendship. You're so fucking myopic you cannot see anything outside of yoru ow nbullshit

[–]SlimLovin 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Who hurt you?

[–]mgtownigga-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

u did bb

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

That does sound entitled and manipulative

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It also doesn't happen to any significant degree. It's another boogieman problem.

[–]newName543456went volcel1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's even worse IMO.

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[–]uto-uto 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

anyone who demands another person stay friends with them is entitled and delusional, no?

just like it's not wrong for guy to be sad or disappointed at rejection, it's not wrong for girl to want friendship to continue. he can't demand she date him, though, and she can't demand he remain her friend. seems pretty clear cut.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

this

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

demand

what?

[–]darla105 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

"I demand you continue to orbit me because I am the Queen. You shall be dismissed when I say so!" actually, I have known some women who do this. It's even more pathetic when the guy obliges.

[–]SkookumTreeWe are DONE with "cope"1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

God, man, where are you meeting these women and the men that are thirsty enough to do that?

[–]darla103 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

college

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

You are right, but here at PPD you are probably preaching to the choir. Most of the blue pill women here said that ending contact instead of trying to make it work (as a platonic friendship) was probably the best idea in most cases.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah this is one of those unicorn topics that most everyone agrees on.

[–]neofauPurple Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

The reason why I posted the topic is because I have heard and seen women shame guys who dont invest in those platonic relationships or choose to opt-out after rejection.

[–]itsyourlittlesister6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Is it any different when guys do it? An ex harassed me when I refused to stay friends with him post-breakup.

[–]SlimLovinHigh Value to Own the Libs5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's really not different. I'm still friends with all of my exes except one, and that's because the one harassed the shit out of me on MySpace.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Opting out is totally fine, we get that you wouldn't want to stick around with unrequited love.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh, I see where you are coming from and it definitely happens. A few years ago the common sentiment actually was "he is a loser if he can't deal with it and stay in a platonic friendship". But by now, there aren't many posters who think like that anymore here at PPD.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

TRP advocates the "hard next": when it's over then it's over and you cut off all communication. As a man it is dysfunctional to try to move from a romantic frame of mind to LJBF.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

a discussion between /u/mgtownigga and /u/wtknight

light against darkness

DUEL OF FATES

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Never really thought about it, but I guess there's a degree of shaming in demonizing a guy for not wanting to be friendly with someone he wants to fuck but won't fuck him back.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Of course they can't demand it. The time like this when it's a problem is if they're stuck together in some way, such as in school. Then the girl might worry she'll get kickback from the rejection.

[–]madeofivory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As somebody who's been both "friendzoned" and the "lets just be friends" girl, I don't see that phrase as a demand or a sense of entitlement at all.

I think it started out as a way of letting em down easy, saying that you don't like them romantically but that you still like them as a person and value their friendship. But now people associate it negatively, cause it stings to be always be around someone that rejected you romantically. But I think most often it is said with good intentions, and not out of a sense of entitlement.

[–]ephemer-0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It can even happen that both sides want to preserve the friendship, but I think it is just hard to manage without taking some break in between. A bunch of the comments on this post deal with the situation: https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/comments/70f6w3/i_have_a_female_friend_who_i_met_this_year_she_is/

I think that in general it's totally okay to want to preserve the friendship, but it is silly to think that this can be done by negating the other person's feeling and impose your presence when they need some distance.

[–]ooj5670 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. I rejected my friend of 8 years. And out of respect for his feelings, I maintain distance, only talking when he call. I even tell him reason for my rejection so he can get over it more easily. After 2 years, he married a cute girl and I never seen him so much happy. Couldn't attend wedding due to unavoidable work on same day. He is still in honeymoon phase so all of us friend has taken a seat back so that he can enjoy much time with his wife.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic1 point2 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

I had this argument already so I don't really want to have it again. I'll just say that my point was that a truly "nice" guy would care more about preserving a friendship than about being butthurt that he was rejected and breaking off all contact with a woman. Ideally, he should just go and pursue another woman while maintaining his friendship with the first woman if their friendship actually meant anything. If they were actually good friends, and they just stop being friends because of a rejected approach, then how good of friends were they really?

I do think that a "normal" guy will want to break things off to protect his feelings, though, and I wouldn't fault a guy who did such a thing as a means of self-preservation, at least until he manages to find somebody else to have a relationship with.

[–]Battle-Scars13 points14 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

Why would I want to be friends with someone I want to be more than "friends" with. This just seems non-sensical to me and a fast track to frustration.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic0 points1 point  (19 children) | Copy Link

Why was a man friends with her in the first place then? Either there was something he liked about her that made him want to be friends, he developed feelings for her, and then just decided to throw the friendship away because she is not attracted to him like he is to her, or, he was never really ever friends with her and was just trying to manipulate his way into a friendship and eventual sex and a relationship with her.

[–]Battle-Scars0 points1 point  (18 children) | Copy Link

Ive never experienced being friends first and lovers second. I have always made my intentions very clear from the start about what kind of relationship I want with her, and have never started out as friends with the intention to be more.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.5 points6 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Huh that's so weird. I've always experienced it as "friends first" albeit not friend-friends I've been close to for forever, more like a "friend" where there's an inkling of sexual tension which then builds and builds. Personally, I think more men will show interest in you early on as a "friend" when they are attracted to you, but they aren't all necessarily intentionally and consciously befriending women in an attempt to manipulate their way into a relationship. I mean I do know those men exist, I just doubt they are the majority. I think it's more like "she's cute/hot, let's hang," and then it builds into a stronger desire. But idk I'm not a man.

[–]TheBlackQuillMisanthrope2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think "friends first" as in acquaintance first.

[–]mgtownigga1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yeah i've gotten out of hte friendzone more than a couple of times

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I think you've described there the healthy model of what goes on & all the issues come from stuff like the guy just being too timid and staying in a holding pattern that goes on too long or whatever pathological stuff may come from the female side.

I think there's some correlation between timidness and likely rejection so you just don't get many cases of medium-term friendships gone-romantic. I say medium term cause it's not suuuper uncommon that really long term friends just find themselves in a situation where they're both available and something real builds from that.

[–]disposable_pants0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

I've always experienced it as "friends first"... a "friend" where there's an inkling of sexual tension which then builds and builds.

But as a woman you only really see the "friends first" relationships that work. You don't see the guys who tried to be friends with you first only to fail at it.

It's like someone who bought something over the phone from a cold call once and concludes that cold calling is a decent sales technique. It technically works, but you don't see all the countless failures it takes to produce even one success. You just see the end product, and to you it seemed natural because it worked for you.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

But as a woman you only really see the "friends first" relationships that work. You don't see the guys who tried to be friends with you first only to fail at it.

Of course I did. As a young attractive single woman basically most of the single male "friends" you have are looking to date you. I turned down many such "friends" and dated others.

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I turned down many such "friends"

Then you should be able to see that it's a bad strategy overall.

  1. Takes a lot of time and investment building up a friendship.
  2. Generally you're forgoing other options because you're pining after that one special friend.
  3. High chance of rejection.
  4. Rejection damages/destroys the friendship in most cases.

The most likely outcome is a lot of time wasted for less than nothing. You didn't get rejected by some random woman who might just not have liked your shirt; you got rejected by someone who actually knows you. And you wasted a lot of other opportunities to get there.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Me explaining something about how I personally found dating partners does not equal me telling everyone to go out and do things this way. And it obviously wasn't a bad "strategy" to the guys I dated. My point was that I don't think they are really strategizing about this anyway.

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Me explaining something about how I personally found dating partners does not equal me telling everyone to go out and do things this way.

Then what's the point of offering a personal anecdote?

And it obviously wasn't a bad "strategy" to the guys I dated.

Well yeah. If you use outcome-based evaluations, any strategy is looks good to the people who found success with it. That same logic would tell you that playing the lottery was a good strategy for lottery winners.

My point was that I don't think they are really strategizing about this anyway.

First, not thinking about this stuff isn't exactly a positive. Second, anyone who tried the "friends first" approach to asking you out didn't just make a move on a whim. They thought about it ahead of time, probably quite a bit. That's strategizing.

[–]Battle-Scars0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

inkling of sexual tension which then builds and builds

That's not friends, but it is closer to what you explained, my intention is romantic not platonic from the beginning, and I make that clear so there is no mixed signals. I would say that process is a matter of 2 or 3 weeks while always escalating and feeling each other out emotionally, etc. That's really all it should take to move to the next level, or not.

[–]alcockell0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

demisexual REO Speedwagon model- was the way it was always taught back in the 70s.

Can't Fight This Feeling. One of the many male-voice rock power ballad soliloquies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmo36gnUCWE

[–]alcockell0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And when it fails - you have tracks like Buzzcocks' Ever Fallen in love with someone you shouldn't have fallen in love with.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, the same for me. I've never done the "nice guy" approach and I don't think that I could respect myself if I did.

[–]ThatGamer7070 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

You are just deflecting all responsibility/sacrifice on to the man. One could also say that if they were actually good friends she would care about him and his feelings enough to want him to break things off and protect his feelings.

It all just depends who you are trying to maniuplate people into thinking is at fault.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I suppose. I would think they should at least stay in touch if their friendship meant anything, though. What I think is wrong is a guy going full-out silent mode just because a woman who he was supposedly good friends with rejected him. It makes the previous friendship seem like it meant absolutely nothing.

[–]Moobx0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

hmm i have heard about women shaming guys after they ask for space/cannot return to the same dynamic upon rejection, and accusing them of trying to get into their pants all along. i am more surprised at the people saying that the friendship should mean more or something. has no one here ever developed feelings after becoming friends? the only way to healthily get over someone is distance. the only way to not wanna bang someone is to not be attracted to them. if the personalities match and the attraction is there, why wouldn't feelings develop?

[–]whichbladeNA Paler Shade of Purple-2 points-1 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's not bad.

It just personally feels disrespectful that they weren't able to treat the friendship 'professionally' you know?

That person who fell in love started to put expectations on the other person and reacted negatively when they didn't get their way.

It's just sad to think someone you were enjoying took you out of you their life, regardless of their reasons.

[–]BPremiumMeh7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

"Its sad when someone you know becomes someone you knew" - Henry Rollins

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fuck yeah, great quote.

[–]disposable_pants1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's just sad to think someone you were enjoying took you out of you their life, regardless of their reasons.

That's true, but if you really saw them as a friend you wouldn't prioritize your own happiness over theirs. You'd realize that them being around you kind of sucks for them, and you'd be glad to let them keep their distance for a while, even if that meant you sacrificed some fun times.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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