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Red Pill TheoryDance, Monkey, Dance: The Time Has Come For A Shift In The Mediums Of Seduction (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by [deleted]

PREFACE

This is a wall of text. I've been developing this theory for a few months and took the time to pare it down to its most essential elements, but it still a lengthy post. I hope it's worth the read.

In 2009, I began to notice a shift in the Game. I started to notice when I was running game in bars and clubs that all the highest-quality girls seemed to arrive with their closest clique of friends. Mixed sets were nothing new to my approaches, but this was different. A girl is far less approachable and willing to submit to your advances when she's with her preferred social circle. I also started to notice a big drop in the number of two-sets (my preferred approach). High-quality girls who come to a bar with just one of their friends were in increasingly short supply, and those that did come with just one of their friends were usually garbage or sluts no matter how good they looked on the outside.

I came to the conclusion that Night Game was dead. My theory is that its death was a product of the Great Recession. With high unemployment, falling wages, and a potential layoff just around the corner, everyone tightened their wallets. Girls don't place a high priority on going to a bar or club to meet a man. They know they can meet men anywhere. So when they did want to go to a bar or club it was usually for a special event--a birthday party, an engagement, or some other big "life event." And who do you celebrate big "life events" with? That's right, your closest group of friends.

The Great Recession lasted at least five years (and is still ongoing, depending on who you ask). This habit of only going out at night for special occasions has become ingrained in our culture, except for the club rats and bar skanks that would be drawn to those places anyway, economy notwithstanding.

TODAY, THERE'S TROUBLE AFOOT

I have noticed the same thing happening in another avenue of Game, but I wanted to be absolutely certain and had properly broken down the theory before I put pen to paper. A couple things pointed me in this direction.

I only run Day Game, unless I'm out with friends at night and want a SNL. In that case, I run a very direct version of Night Game: "I'm going back to my house to smoke, are you coming with me or not? You're not? Cool, nice to meet you. No, I don't want your phone number. Have fun and be safe."

My Day Game is good, but not great. I only approach when I get clear buying signals (flirty eye contact) and I've got the system down to where I feel I can build a strong enough rapport to get a solid phone number after about 10 minutes of face time.

Lately, though, I've noticed a trend happening with the phone numbers I'm pulling. I'll text, she'll timely respond for the first three or four messages, and then right around the time that I've reestablished rapport and am about to ask for the date, she ghosts.

I didn't think much of it until I noticed the same thing happening with the plates I've been spinning from within my own social circle. This was a slap to the face. Girls in your social circle are usually the most receptive. There's trouble afoot.

I swallowed my pride and showed some of the text-message strings to some of my friends who are Naturals and some of my wingwomen. They scratched their heads, too. "I don't see that you did anything wrong." "Maybe she got distracted and moved on to something else?" "That's weird. I would have done the same thing. I don't know why she ghosted you." So my Game was tight. What else could it be?

Flash forward a couple weeks. My firm is asking me to help out one week per month at our satellite office in the state. I fired up Tinder and OKC to get some pre-selection established in this new city because it is a gold mine for young, attractive women (college town with a SEC school). I'd get matches on Tinder, girls would PM me on OKC, and I'd get responses to some of my PMs on OKC. I'd start text conversations and, again, they'd timely respond for a little while and then suddenly ghost. My Natural friends and my wingwomen confirmed, again, that nothing was wrong with the texts themselves.

WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH KANSAS?

Allow me to make a bold statement: Gaming a girl through an electronic medium is dead. Texting, instant messaging, Tindering, OKC-ing, POF-ing, Facebooking, Snapchatting, Twittering, Instagramming, group messaging, or using any other form of digital communication to move the seduction forward is dead.

I want you to try something: Go to Google and search, "How to text a girl." I just did. There were 426,000,000 results, including links to websites with shitty advice, websites with good advice, websites with great advice, websites that preach PUA and RedPill principles, and a countless number of YouTube videos from claimed lotharios and women alike.

If you think that any of the "games" or "tricks" or "methods" you use to seduce a woman through text message are unique, individual, or will somehow set you apart from the pack you are wrong.

I guarantee you a girl has received some variation of whatever opener you're going to try when you pick up your phone to text message some broad whose number you just closed. I guarantee you she's been asked out over text a thousand times. I guarantee you if she let you look at her text message inbox, you'd see the following:

  • Greg hey cutie! just had the most amazing cup of coffee at starbucks! have a great day!

  • Tony hey gorgeous my friends are going to be at buffalo phil's on sat to watch the game you should come out

  • (205) 555-1818 hey its eric from last night i really enjoyed meeting you how's your day?

  • Bret <3 maybe

  • Steve hey! haven't heard from you in a while hope you're doing well

  • Gay best friend you rocked that halter top last night sweetie. drinks soon :*

  • Greg guess what i just saw outside my window? a plane! ah, the glory of working on the 20th floor. have a great day!

If that same girl let you see her OKC inbox, you'd see the same thing. If that girl opened her Tinder for you, you'd see endless streams of the same kinds of text messages from the same kinds of guys all trying the same tired tactics preached on the websites by my simple Google search above.

HOW DID WE GET HERE?

2001

When text messaging became mainstream in 2001, everybody was limited to 100 texts per month. If you went over that, you were charged $0.15 per text message.

How did people use text messaging back in those days? Well, kiddos, come sit by grandpa and I'll tell you. It was used to text what your voicemail message was going to say when you called someone and they didn't pick up. For example, "hey we're meeting at willy's instead of pete's. and it's at 8 instead of 9. see you there." It was not used to start a conversation, get to know someone better, show that you were cocky-funny, demonstrate higher value, or for any other seductive technique that you think it would.

Text messaging was purely for logistical purposes and nothing more. True, the same principles get espoused here on this sub but I see far too many preachers of TRP using text message when they're spinning a plate or with their LTRs. They're using text messaging as a substitute for real conversation. I did, too.

If you wanted to move the seduction forward in 2001, however, you called her or you spoke with her in person. The beta males were using AIM to advance their seductions. But I was setting myself apart by having the stones to call and follow up with a logistical text if she didn't respond.

2009

After my longest relationship with the girl who came the closest to marrying me, I got back in the Game in 2009. I noticed text messaging had become so mainstream by then that calling a girl when you got her phone number smacked of try-hard. It was too forward. She'd think, "Whoa. Why is this guy calling me? We're not boyfriend and girlfriend yet. We hardly know each other." That's when I started running Google searches for effective texting techniques and found some of the better websites that I still visit today (CH being chief among them). The beta males were using text messaging as a substitute for AIM. But I was setting myself apart by having the stones to use short, three-word responses to demonstrate value and provide mystery.

2014

Now here we are in 2014 and a girl has no shortage of male attention in the electronic sphere. Facebook, Twitter, Tinder, OKC, Instagram, even fucking Pinterest are a literal Sears catalog of guys for her to choose from.

"Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all?" BOOM there are literally 100 guys to choose from on Tinder. Swipe left, get a text. Swipe left, get a text. Swipe left, get a text. Fuck, even Yovanna Ventura got into a prolonged sexual relationship with Justin Bieber and had all the paparazzi attention she could ever want because she posted pictures of her ass on Instagram. That's it. She didn't seek him out at a show, she didn't run up to him and ask for his autograph on the street, she didn't even try to get her people to call his people. She just did this: Post an ass pic. Wait for the PMs to flood in. Oh, look, there's one from Justin Bieber.

DANCE, MONKEY, DANCE

Ask yourself: In today's digital world, how much effort does it really take to text a girl? None. It's two seconds' worth of time and 140 characters. And how much effort does it really take for a girl to respond to your text messages? None. It's two seconds' worth of her time and 140 characters and even then it's not worth the time and effort because there are literally 50 other dicks being thrown in her face, day in and day out, through an electronic medium.

Mirror, mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all?

Or as I like to put it: Dance, monkey, dance.

Every time you text a girl, every time you try to seduce her through an electronic medium, you are reduced to a "ping" and you're putting yourself in her frame.

Here's what she's thinking in her limbic system: Eric just told me he went to lunch at a fancy restaurant. Thank you, next! And what do you have for me today, Mr. Bankruptedcasino? Oh, a pun about the weather. I've only seen that one three times today. Have a token "lol [insert witty comment here]" and I'll shuffle you in with the rest of the deck. Look, here comes Phil to ask me how my day was. He's a nice guy and I don't want to hurt his feelings, so I'll write, "it's good! how was yours?" and ignore his response because he'll circle back again in a week. Oh, look, here comes Mr. Bankruptedcasino again and, wow, he's asking me out through text message. Hmm, I dunno. There are so many suitors coming in to my inbox (ping! there's another one!) and they all dance for me so well, I don't know who the fairest of them all is yet. I'll tell bankruptedcasino that my sister is in town and shelve him for later. A girl's gotta keep her options open, ya'know. Ping! There's Mike. We've fucked a couple times before. Yeah, he's an asshole, but the devil you know beats the devil you don't!

I want you to picture this in your mind the next time you unlock your phone to communicate to a girl through an electronic medium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUNrltwdZaw

You are no different. You are just a number. An audition. And there are 5,000 people waiting in the lobby behind you.

THE SOLUTION

Don't text message a girl anymore. Communicate early and often that the only ways she can get a hold of you is to (a) answer the phone when you call, (b) call you and hope you're not busy so you will pick up, or (c) see you in person.

If you're spinning a plate or in a LTR, transition to texting one-word responses or confirmations of logistics ONLY. For example, a plate texts me, "hey! how's your day?" I'll wait a few hours and then respond with, "slammed work is crazy - call you later." I'll call when I have time. I'm a man in demand. I don't have the time to ping! ping! ping! all day long. I have shit to do. Seduction can wait until it's on my timetable, not hers. Besides, I'll let the orbiters ping! her all day long. That's what they're there for.

If it's a new prospect, I don't text. Period. And I ignore her texts if she texts first. Instead, I pick up the phone and call her. They almost never pick up. So, I'll leave a standard voice mail including the following elements:

  • (1) Introduce myself and where we met,

  • (2) tell her I wanted to talk more but had to hastily leave because I had other plans,

  • (3) give her a token compliment about her style if she's someone I'm only marginally interested in or a heavier compliment about her personality if I had the chance to deep dive and connect with her emotionally, and

  • (4) tell her I'm going to be at X place at Y time and she should meet me there so we can get to know each other better.

This works very, very well. If she's interested, she'll call me back. I don't pick up. She can leave a message or text message to confirm that she's going to be there. If she replies with a text message, I respond with, "cool see you then." And then I ghost her until the date.

Try it. If she calls you back and you decide to pick up, or when you see her in person, expect to hear some variation of, "Guys never call girls anymore. I was really impressed that you had the confidence to ask me out over the phone instead of through text like every other guy I meet these days."

WHY THIS WORKS

The fundamental premise of dating is that eggs are expensive and sperm is cheap (thanks, CH). Women are the valued sex. Like it or not, women do the picking. They say who comes, stays, lays, and prays. It's been like this for eons. It's not changing.

The only way you can get continued success with women, the only way you can increase the ratio of approaches that turn in to dates, is to separate yourself from the pack. Everyone is using text/electronic media to seduce women these days. But, more importantly, every lesser man is using text to seduce women these days. Thus, my theory is that, in this day and age, you are subconsciously signaling lesser value to a woman if you use an electronic medium to seduce her. Who has the time to text a girl all day every day? A lesser man. Who lacks the courage to pick up the phone and call a girl for a date and, instead, resorts to text? A lesser man. Who tries to force rapport with a prospect, plate, or girlfriend through witty banter in a digital medium? A lesser man.

Are you necessarily a lesser man because you do these things? Of course not! But you are guilty by association: if every lesser man uses digital communication to move the seduction forward, you can't be upset that a girl is lumping you among the lesser men.

Who's the dancing monkey in your courtship? Is it you or is it her? Are you the dancing monkey pinging her with a text message every couple of days sniffing around for an hour of her time? Or is she the dancing monkey because you're a man who knows what he wants, you called, you left a message, and waited for her to call back? Oops, you're too busy now because she didn't pick up the phone when you called. Gotta set that precedent, dude.

Now she'll have to leave a message confirming the date or text you to tell you what she was going to say in the voicemail. But now you're not responding. Are you in or are you out? She doesn't know. She's going to fire up the phone and start texting her friend Shelly and her gay best friend and ask wtf is going on. Is there a date or not? All the while, ping! There's Eric again. Ping! There's Greg again. Ping! There's that random guy she met at the club. Ping! Another match on Tinder. Ping! Another PM on OKC. Ugh, will all these dicks stop being thrown in my face for one minute so I can find out whether or not I have a date with this guy who is the only real man of the lot, the only real man who had the stones to pick up the phone and call me to ask me out?!

I'll send him another message to confirm.

  • Her hey just wanted to know if we're still on for 730 tomorrow

  • Bret <3 maybe

Mirror, mirror on the wall, Bret is the fairest of them all.

Good luck, and happy hunting.

/s/bankruptedcasino


[–]tyofwa 112 points113 points  (17 children)

OP frames this phenomenon as abundance for a woman and he is spot-on. As a father of a 21YO daughter I can sadly confirm that the observations from the woman's POV are correct in our house. Let me share some additional ones –

The thing is that messaging to many young women became a source of personal affirmations; something like a security blanket of attention. Naturally the HB8+ crowd considers her group of texters to be primarily in the friend zone; like little teddy bears neatly arranged on her bed. To the woman's narcissistic tendencies these messages are a slow-drip of feel-good drugs. I’ll watch my daughter “nudge” her orbiters with just enough attention to keep the drip flowing. When she is satisfied with the attention she will go Ghost on the least interesting ones.

OP's point, which I can confirm, is to NOT play in the abundance game.

  • Would you try to sell freezers in the arctic?
  • Would you try vend food at an all-inclusive resort?

These are principles of marketing & business. Anything at critical mass becomes devalued. To succeed in a saturated market, the innovator invests in differentiators. Eventually a differentiator becomes a disruption, and then the disruption becomes the norm, critical mass is acquired, and the cycle repeats. OP’s core message is that it is time to differentiate. In 2009 TXTing was the differentiator. In 2004 it was MySpace.

Perhaps this time what was old is new again.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 39 points40 points  (9 children)

As a man who exclusively dates women under the age of 23, I would appreciate any more insights you have into your daughter's worldview (but only if you feel comfortable sharing). You can PM me if you want. Thanks.

[–][deleted] 20 points20 points

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[–][deleted] 13 points13 points

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[–]the_Milkweed 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I've always justified having a tindr profile on the more positive side of 'darned if you do and darned if you don't' No girl is going to k ow if you aren't on tindr, unless it's face to face, in which you could just lie.

I understand you're theory but I prefer my chances.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What's next?

It's already been hinted at in the previous posts. It's not exactly a defined thing, but it's about how you value yourself as an individual.

To succeed in a saturated market, the innovator invests in differentiators.

Value your time, your effort, and be different. Before it might've been texting. Now it might be limited to calls + logistical testing. Who knows in the future? Snap chatting something sexy as confirmation.

But the expectation is the same of the girl -- that she is putting in an equal amount of reciprocal effort. Texting is cheap, easy, and meaningless. Calling right now takes time and effort. Get that honey to invest. Reward appropriately.

[–][deleted] 25 points25 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]Luckyluke23 9 points10 points  (1 child)

i am putting up the second to the AMA.

i think there would be a lot of value to it.

[–]tyofwa 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ill consider it after the holidays.

[–]DreamBoatGuy25 6 points7 points  (0 children)

These are principles of marketing & business. Anything at critical mass becomes devalued. To succeed in a saturated market, the innovator invests in differentiators. Eventually a differentiator becomes a disruption, and then the disruption becomes the norm, critical mass is acquired, and the cycle repeats.

This is some wisdom right here.

[–]redpillerinnyc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for not being the oblivious father who thinks his daughter can't be a hypergamous slut. She is, most likely, and in rare cases she is not currently, she will turn into one at first available opportunity. AWALT.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 79 points80 points  (22 children)

Wait for the PMs to flood in.

http://i.imgur.com/S7zJuiU.png

Bitch hard "at work" working out... working out how to look best for her selfie.

Yes faggots, just shower these bitches with praise and then wonder why they're all total fucking narcs. Ignore a bitch so hard she thinks you hate her. Meeting bitches online is beta/lazy game. Don't talk to a girl online you wouldn't have the game to pull in real life.

[–]TimPartendale 36 points36 points [recovered]

68,000 people liked that single photo and that dude thinks he even has a chance with her, why did he bother commenting? Why feed the machine... Him and the others are the problem.

[–]anttyk47 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Not problem, they work in your favor

[–]chillmonkey88 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That's a great problem... for me.

[–]Luckyluke23 2 points3 points  (0 children)

lol, I love how you said. every guy thinks he has a chance with her...

no guy has a chance with her ( the real guy who do wouldn't bother with an attention whore like her, they would just hit it once an never call back.)

[–]Ibex3D 34 points35 points  (2 children)

Im sorry but holy hell, that picture is just what I want! A nice big open room with fans for me to work out in. Damn, that'd make my year.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That's a way better thing to leave on her wall.

[–]Luckyluke23 4 points5 points  (0 children)

yeah... it's like the photo would be better if the girl WASN'T in it

[–]darkstout 17 points18 points  (4 children)

Dude is the definition of "omega." She has 1.3 million of them. Attractive girls online collect omegas to feed her vanity and there is nothing we can do because men are thirsty thirsty thirsty. Now excuse me while I watch a video of her ass, I mean "full body workout."

[–]Luckyluke23 3 points4 points  (2 children)

it makes me wonder what it would be like to go from a guy that gets 0 attention to getting something like this...

i wonder if it would change me.

[–]djvita 5 points5 points [recovered]

yes it would. it happened to me in middle school, all of the sudden the hottest girl takes a liking, suggests we go out, we do (not much came out of it since i was still a beta), but then people were opening me up, talking to me, inviting me to their lunch tables, other girls start to confess feelings, sleepovers, i developed a group of friends actually.

just need to work on building status. that's the "fame" men need

[–]WardlyHasted 10 points10 points [recovered]

I made an Instagram account just to see what all the fuss was about. Made a "creeper" account not connected to my regular email, with no info, no pictures and started following some of the top accounts.

100% even more so than Facebook, Instagram's primary feature is providing validation for girls. It's absolutely fucking disgusting the types of comments men leave for some of these girls.

Girls posting pictures like this know they're hot, they don't need thousands of dudes telling them this. However, these individuals provide the oh so coveted validation these girls crave.

Between the "memes" these girls post, the constant validation seeking behaviour, and my personal favourite "Haters and negativity will be blocked" in their bio (i.e. I post slutty/revealing pics everyday but if you call me out on it you're blocked), it's no wonder the dating scene is as fucked up as it is.

Honestly, Instagram almost single-handedly proves AF/BB and any number of other TRP theories.

[–]UrRealDad 8 points9 points  (3 children)

On a side note, this type of global attention whoring is so new, less than 10 years old (more like 5), I have to wonder what type of "trauma" these women will face when they pass the wall and reach the point where no man will sleep with them, let alone shower them with attention. I imagine the result will not be pretty (pun intended).

[–]bluedrygrass 9 points10 points  (2 children)

The results will be explosive. We'll see the most miserable, depressed, worn out specimens it is possible to imagine. Problem is, in the ever-more socialistic societies we're all gonna pay for fallen sluts and never-been nerds. Pay the antidepressants. Pay the medical bills. Pay taxes for the non productive has beens.

Brace yourself. Females health parameters and life expectancy are free-falling.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The brighter they burn, the harder they crumble.

[–]redzorp 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All true. But at the end of the day, there will ALWAYS be some pathetic beta to scrape post-wall women off the floor.

That's one reason why the overwhelming majority of homeless people are men. Most women will always find someone to take care of them.

[–]t21spectre 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I would also throw in Histrionic Personality Disorder to her list of character flaws. Beyond her looks there is nothing to her but a vapid boorish person, guaranteed.

[–]Anderfail 18 points19 points  (9 children)

Anyone who has a career knows that by calling people on the phone that you will get better responses and better feedback than through email, which is honestly too interpersonal. Texting is even worse than email now.

If you want someone's attention focused solely on you, then call them. Otherwise don't be annoyed when they ignore you. This applies to finding jobs, dates, whatever because humans are oriented around verbal and nonverbal communication. Hearing your voice puts you directly in their minds and they have something more to associate with you versus words on a screen.

For you young guys looking for a job out of college. USE YOUR PHONE, don't just send your resume to some website. Call the company, ask for someone in the department where you want to work, introduce yourself with a maximum 1 minute long speech, and then express your interest in joining the company. Literally no one does this now and companies are basically begging for people to do it. Why? Because lots of these companies have 50 to 60 year old men who are old school.

Basically if you want someone's undivided attention, call them on the phone. It's shows confidence and that you do actually care. Women eat this shit up just like potential employers.

[–]fatfaggotfuck69 3 points3 points [recovered]

I hear so many kids saying "I emailed my resume to a hundred companies and not a single one responded!"

Yeah no shit. Get off your ass.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Keep in mind that there's a definite bias here. The only people complaining about this are the ones who think that pulling the Victim Card™ makes them look good. That means that A) they're definitely faggots, and B) they're probably not exceedingly intelligent faggots, either.

[–]Adolf_ghandi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you. Someone had to say that so I realise this stuff.

[–]hollowcrown51 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The thing nowadays with job applications is that companies recruiting through agencies often don't include any information about the company you're applying for. This makes writing a non-generic cover letter even worse, and makes it impossible to call up and talk to someone. But either way for speculative applications it sounds like something I'll look into.

[–]redpillerinnyc 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Calling and giving me (or anyone at my company) 1 min long speech would be best way to get yourself blacklisted. I'm sure there are some fields and companies for it might be appropriate. Not finances.

[–]Anderfail 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Calling is still far better than just sending a resume in. I wish people would do it, but absolutely no one does

[–]redpillerinnyc 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Let me rephrase it. If somebody calls when I'm busy at work (and I'm always busy at work) and try to give me 1 min speech, he def won't get the job. If he doesn't call and has all the right things on his resume, you might though chance might be low.

Know your potential employers.

[–]alpha_n3rd 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Agreed. I hate phone calls while I'm working. Then again I'm not in management so I actually do productive work.

Emailing me your resume outside the normal HR chain OTH might work.

*Actually I just hate phone calls.

[–]1greatest_mistake 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Texting and social media are the demise of the art of social interaction. While picking up the phone and meeting in person are two mediums I've always been a fan of, some one needed to be say what you just said. Society has gotten lazy because being social no longer means developing conversation skills. People can socialize from their couch. This translates to the dating game. Good post and it's something I agree %100 with.

[–]knitro 32 points32 points [recovered]

This is a really, really good post. It's an accurate picture of the dating world by someone who's clearly spent some time in it (something a lot of RP posts lack). The shifting landscape given the risen of smart phones & dating/socials apps is impossible to ignore.

What can I add?

Smart phones help knock down night game initially, but their present day over-reliance has actually given night/direct game a boost. OP may have swore it off but the fact is if your aggressive & direct in person, you will see results that you wouldn't realize in the electrosphere of dating.

Any attractive girl will have her coterie of online suitors, met via the 15 different attention avenues she can use. They may be perceived (or actual) higher SMV than you. What is working in your favor now is that because everyone is on instagram, tinder, etc, everyone is the same. Same in the sense of 'this isn't some guy I met at a bar, this is a guy I met online! He's different' the way it was years ago. It's no longer a differentiator. Thus, what OP was saying about women having a subconscious feeling that its a low value activity is more pronounced because it's no longer this unique 'unclassifiable'. It's has less impact then a guy who can approach her in person, period.

You are here now, and don't have time for that shit. Women respond to this. This doesn't mean you won't still lose out to the phone:

Can you be getting in with a girl and still lose out to pre-existing 2 am booty calls? Yes

Will her attention get pulled away from you because her one friend just broke up with her boyfriend and we have to text about it? Yes

Will that one friend who was gonna show up wind up at a different place and now she has to leave to go there? Yes

You're in person charm can still overcome a lot of this, because it is now unusual. So many guys rely on kik or whatsapp or other shit I'm too old for to get a girl that they're 'weird' or 'awkward' or even worse 'creepy' in person.

Further, you can have fun with it. Chide her for her 'lease', threaten to take it away like a teacher might. If her interest is piqued, she'll be into it.

"Guys never call girls anymore. I was really impressed that you had the confidence to ask me out over the phone instead of through text like every other guy I meet these days."

I've heard the same thing from girls. If your worried she won't respond to you calling, you shouldn't be. Her not responding means she isn't interested. A phone call took care of it, versus a string of texts and a few plans falling through leaving you unsure.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Smart phones help knock down night game initially, but their present day over-reliance has actually given night/direct game a boost. OP may have swore it off but the fact is if your aggressive & direct in person, you will see results that you wouldn't realize in the electrosphere of dating.

I swore off Night Game because of a personal preference, not because it doesn't work. It works, you just have to be very, very direct, which most newbs and some lotharios aren't comfortable with.

My personal preference for swearing off Night Game is that I have transitioned from bolstering my notch count to only pursuing potential unicorns (i.e., women who are just as beautiful on the inside as they are on the outside - a rare find, indeed).

You're in person charm can still overcome a lot of this, because it is now unusual.

This was the whole point of my post. Be different from the rest of the masses and you will have at least some interest. If your Game is tight, that's all you'll ever need.

[–]the_Milkweed 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I am with you brother, I found through my travels that I just didn't enjoy the sex with the girls who would sleep with me on the first night.

It's heartless and cold and unfullfilling. It's as if I sunk to their level.

Now the hard part is finding the needle in the hay stack, sometimes I wonder if the needles even worth getting my clothes dirty.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I've been in several LTRs with unicorns. Believe me, it's worth it. They're drop-dead gorgeous and live to please their men. Once you've savored the flavor, you'll never go back to the stable girls.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Great posts all around. I would take this a step further and have 0 social media presence. The more mysterious you are the better.

[–]rpscrote 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I've had this vague notion in the back of my head that im sick and tired of playing the texting bullshit game. The waiting and the gamesmanship is tiring. this sums it up perfectly, and offers a superior alternative to boot. (Literal) Game changer.

Additional note: if your actual game is tight, you can communicate so much more with your manner of speaking, tonality, etc, than you can via text. Kinda goes without saying but ill be focusing on those aspects to really make sure that text to call is as big of an upgrade as possible.

What's old is new again

[–]16 TRP VanguardTRPsubmitter 10 points11 points  (3 children)

I really like this post man. Kudos to you.

I like the zero sum approach: dance monkey dance. One will be the monkey and it better not be you.

Also, come to Korea, two sets here are still a huge thing. It's how Korean women signal that they're available. In fact, very rarely do large groups of korean girls go out (aka the 5 besties thing). It's almost always twosomes of girls.

I call this phenomenon "The Sith factor: two there always are, no more, no less, a master and an apprentice".

This is because it's almost ALWAYS one party girl who wants to pick up a guy, but she doesn't want her close friends to know she does ONS due to gossip among Koreans, so she brings some acquaintance from her study group who she met randomly 2 months ago. They've hung out maybe 2 or 3 times before and aren't good friends.

Then the apprentice is a girl who is just "interested" in nightlife and likes to have fun but isn't a party girl. Both are pretty but the "master" is always the slutty one.

These girls also buy bottle service at bars and just sit there doing nothing for 3 hours.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Leave it to another endorsed contributor to summarize my number one rule about dating: it's a zero-sum game. Someone wins, someone loses.

[–]redpillerinnyc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot must have changed since I lived there. I can't imagine pretty (I presume you were talking about Korean pretty, not US pretty) Korean girls buying bottle service and sitting there for hours. Why would they pay for bottle when they can use the waiters and "booking" system to drink all night long, esp when there are only 2 of them?

[–]1AreYouAware_ 41 points42 points  (59 children)

The theory here is solid, but there is one thing that gives me pause. Most people I know chronically leave their voice mail unchecked. They rack up dozens of unheard messages before they bother to do anything about them. Had this not been an issue with your approach?

[–]knitro 57 points57 points [recovered]

if she sees your missed call and doesn't care to hear what you have to say - she wasn't interested. This isn't some technological failure preventing an otherwise interested girl from being an option.

[–]jeremyfirth 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Disagree. My hatred for voice-mail supersedes my desire to hear what anyone has to say.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

If anything she will text you apologizing she missed your call

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If she doesn't check her voicemail to see if you were the one calling then she probably wasn't going to text you back either

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 16 points17 points  (37 children)

No. She should be checking her voicemail if you made a strong enough impression and called her from a number she didn't recognize.

Though I think a way to anticipate your legitimate concern is to text a short, one sentence phrase once you exchange the digits (e.g., "bankruptedcasino from [X]") so she knows who you are.

[–][deleted] 20 points20 points

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[–]Surf_Or_Die 15 points16 points  (3 children)

I'm 25 and I never check my voice mail on my personal phone. On my work phone I do because there's important shit there. On my personal phone I assume people will text me or call back if it was important... I assume most people, including girls, do the same.

[–]Adolf_ghandi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well you just got to be important shit then.

[–]rpscrote 0 points1 point  (14 children)

voicemail on all smartphones gives the user a notification when you get one

[–][deleted] 10 points10 points

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[–]rockymountainoysters 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Young women today often have countless apps, 50% of which have a little red number in the corner for notifications for her to ignore.

[–]Entrefut 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Rather be the 1 missed voicemail than one in a hundred missed texts

[–]Luckyluke23 1 point2 points  (0 children)

i think the point of the call vs text is simple.

becuse she gets SO MANY text when she see she has 1 new text it means she.

but when she sees she has 1 missed call it gives he that emotional spike

[–]unpluggedoasis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My response to this is that she will see it is a missed call from you. Maybe open with a text so the # now has you in as a contact then switch to calls.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Couldn't disagree more. She is getting all this instant attention on demand and she's gonna waste a minute to check her voicemail from a random number? I don't think so.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Why bother with a voice mail?

Just call her and leave it at that. This will build mystery and have her wondering why you called.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 16 points17 points  (6 children)

I've field tested this. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

When it hasn't, I've gotten a version of the "who is this?" text or a call back that went something like, "yeah, so I got a call from this number and I don't know why you're calling me." My phone doubles as a work phone, so my voicemail greeting makes it sound like something serious is going on. Usually that's an indication that my number close was poor. It happens. Part of the Game. But sometimes girls can forget to save your number in their phones or sometimes you only have time to pull her number before you leave and don't give her the opportunity to get yours.

IME (and this is completely up for debate), by leaving a bold voicemail using the elements I described you will spark some interest because it's ballsy. And if a girl initially thought, "who is this?" she can listen to your message and go, "Oh, yeeeahhh, bankruptedcasino. He was the guy I met at the bookstore. Wow, leaving a voicemail is different and new. What's his story?"

Some people are leaving comments that girls never check their voicemails anymore. I think that's a cop-out excuse girls use (a la "I have a boyfriend") to explain why they don't return a man's calls. The only girls who didn't return my calls were the ones I wasn't interested in, and I just saved myself the time of crafting garbage text messages that would have done nothing to advance the seduction past making me look like a dancing monkey.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Definitely a ballsy move. It's all in the application. If you do it right, you stand out amongst the pack. If you don't do it right, you come off as try-hard and desperate.

You could mitigate the "who is this" response by initially sending a text message with your name along with it.

The main goal here is to get them on the phone. So, I say, if you got a dynamite VM, then go for it. If not, don't try and wing it because it will probably just blow up in your face.

[–]Dr_Acu1a 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I always make sure that any number I get at least has my name and number when I walk away. She might save it and might not. If she asks "who is this" when I call or text, I know I'm wasting my time.

[–]redpillerinnyc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Oh, yeeeahhh, bankruptedcasino. He was the guy I met at the bookstore. Wow, leaving a voicemail is different and new. What's his story?"

I cannot imagine a single girl saying that out loud or thinking it.

I actually agree with you in regards to texts. I've always used it for logistics only (call me, running late, etc) and have never used it for flirting. It definitely hasn't hurt me.

But I just don't see a young girl thinking you're special because you left a vmail.

[–]Mouthpiece 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A well thought out theory, and field testing too?

Somebody move this man to the front of the line.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have you tried leaving a voicemail and then sending a text saying "check your voicemail"? I ask this because none of my peers ever check their voicemail and I haven't even had access to mine for the past five years.

[–]1Dev_on 3 points4 points  (9 children)

voicemail.. what are we 45?

I use it (even at work) to weed out the tech inept from my life

[–][deleted] 9 points9 points

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[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (4 children)

I am 45. And someday you will be too... Muhahahahahaha

[–]1Dev_on 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I know, and if it's anything like 35, it'll feel no different from 25, except I can afford things

[–]1oldredder 4 points5 points  (1 child)

It won't be. 25 to 35 you'll see an income jump; 35 to 45 you'll start to get aching joints. Remember the sunscreen song? Appreciate your knees. You'll miss them when they're gone.

[–]RedHeimdall 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, OP's idea is interesting, but I would think a girl would take a call over a text as the sender is old and/or very tech unsavvy

[–]TheLife_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dunno if it works the same for you, but my provider sends the message as a MMS rather than storing it in some service. They tried converting it to text for a while, but it wound up somewhat like Youtube subtitles.

Either way, keeps it simple and straightforward.

[–]chillmonkey88 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Voice mails get unchecked but missed calls don't... and when she texts "you call?" This is a perfect opportunity to push/pull or reward/punish in a way...

Push pull response (only if she is worth it -the pull was is simply asking her out) - "your missing out (x-event)" and leave it at that and ghost. Or amplify with follow up playful push if it was for a 1 on 1 date to what's next like "I wanted to go to (somewhere cool, unique, or fancy) with you, but if you can't figure your vm out... let's just go to McDonald's ;)" or "I wanted to go out with you but how about you come over and I'll show you how to vm"

Reward/punish (preferred if random girl - reward would be the format in op, you invited her out and gave her attention via compplement) - flake and ghost... if your with your crew, make a detour or move around (your too valuable to sit and wait for her at someplace on the groups time) to flake if she wants in she'll have to start chasing you. If it was a date flake and ghost... for good. she's not worth your time and probably wasn't that attracted to you in the first place time saver. If it was an event, go and just ghost. If she goes then she'll have to prove herself worthy to you right when she walks in.

[–]zensetsu 1 points1 points [recovered]

Don't think there is anyone in my generation with the voicemail even activated.

[–]JackGetsIt 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I agree with your premise and your conclusion and I wanted to add my own reflection.

Let's say a girl has 3 guys she's currently electronically auditioning. She doesn't base her choice logically. Let's say to her limited perception: Guy A: Is hot with game. B: Is hot with no game and C: is not hot with game. She will always choose option A. Unless she's hit the wall she will never logically say to her self. If I choose option B or C I might actually not get a pump and dump maybe he will stick and we can have a relationship. Her emotional logic is: "Option A might pump and dump me but I will manipulate and control him enough; I will tame him."

I think the other thing girls do is they might have 10 electronic auditions on their phone and computer and if none of those current options are as appealing as Chad thunder cock that fucked her that one time in high school she just won't respond unless she's getting close to the wall or the perceived wall. Or at the very least her response will be weak at best. This is another reason that neging really does work with women. It get's them down off the pedestal other guys have put them on and back at at least eye level.

My only correction with your post is this comment

Like it or not, women do the picking

It's simple not true. If you have a higher sexual market value and she knows this (you've established preselection, your obviously much better looking, you obviously have higher status, etc) then you are doing the picking and if she acts like she's doing the picking she's playing games. It just seems like women are doing the picking because they operate from a place that nearly all men are of lower value until proven otherwise. It's a strategy that works well for them in a Beta/herb/orbiter men boy dominated society.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I have heard it explained that women pick the men that get to do the picking themselves. Perhaps, we pick each other? Idk. But, I do know that a lot of men get left in the dust but few women suffer the same fate.

[–]InferiousX 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Solid write up. I've resorted to texting very rarely and I think hearing your voice gives her a chance to hear your tonality which is something that's lacking in text.

I think the only case i'd argue for a stream of texts is if the conversation is overtly sexual. (Usually happens with girls you've already been with).

[–]prodigyx 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Very well developed theory and good presentation. Staying ahead of the curve. This is why I sub to TRP

[–]armenia4ever 32 points33 points  (4 children)

I agreed with this. Text and online mediums prevent any kind of body language in the conversation which is huge.

Can we side bar this?

[–]rpscrote 11 points12 points  (0 children)

This post is so gold. The evidence is everywhere. Notice that any good salesman prefers calling to email and prefers face to face to calling. Totally agreed on sidebar or something like it

[–]TimPartendale 4 points4 points [recovered]

I agree with sending this to the sidebar, newbies could find it useful.

[–]Manuel_S 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This. It is a different and very valid perspective.

[–]TurgidMeatWand 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Very good observant post. I noticed this awhile ago on the gay side of things through grindr and scruff. Gay game has basically evolved into going out to the club and opening up grindr or scruff or whatever app and pinging each other for hookups, because more and more guys are going to ignore your game if you live more than 15 minutes away.

Inb4: this sub is about picking up wommens you faggot ee don't care about gay game.

Well, you kind of should, the "not creepy" gay bars where I live are starting to get clogged with college girls auditioning to be fag hags so they can show off to their friends that they have gay friends.

Girls are easily influenced by their peer groups and if they hang out with gay guys all the time they pick up the same strategies.

That strategy: post sexy photos of yourself on social media so guys will compliment you and feed your ego,text sexual things back and forth to make each other horny, hook up with the hottest person that lives next to you before the mood passes, and tell everyone else something came up. Rinse repeat.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 15 points16 points  (2 children)

I've never understood the hatred gay men get on TRP. We're all human; the principles of dominant/submissive roles within a romantic relationship are universal regardless of sexual orientation.

In any event, this guy's post is seconded. When you hang out with a yenta of women and their gay best friends, pour a glass of fine Cabernet, sit back, and enjoy being a fly on the wall for the very carnal, cynical, myopic worldview of today's 20somethings who use Instagram likes as sources of self-confidence.

Thank you for posting. Seriously.

[–]TurgidMeatWand 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I don't view it as true hatred, just internet hyperbole dismissing what is viewed as irrelevant posting.

A lot of trp theory is relevant gay sex strategy because just like women, when you have that much cock flying in your face on a daily basis it's easy to get very picky and develope entitlement.

[–]no_face 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I haven't seen any hatred for gay men here. Can you point out instances

[–]Mouthpiece 2 points3 points  (1 child)

This is gold.

I've been in active contributor on Seddit and AskSeddit for a very long time now. The number one question I see, one that indicates to me a newb or other man convinced it is on low status, how to game girls over text or Facebook.

I have a theory that most men are pussies, and it dovetails pretty well with what you're saying here. Men who can't stand the thought of face-to-face rejection or are afraid of in person physical contact with women resort to Facebook and tender and other electronic medium to try to seduce women.

I've long thought that the medium was flawed, but you've convinced me that the messengers who choose the medium are also routinely flawed, which in turn devalues the medium, because who wants to meet guys online if they're all dweebs and keyboard cowboys?

Men, get off your phones off your computers and get out there and meet some women live.

Thanks for the great post.

[–]magus678 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fantastic post.

The only thing I might add is we would want to not use too much of an "extreme" view of electronic game. It's simply another tool in the toolbox.

The point of the post really seems to be that now that everyone and their dog is comfortable with this, it's important to refresh your non electronic skills. Game in one and game in the other arent hugely different skills, it's just a matter of how comfortable you are in each realm. I mean let's be honest, the reason electronic flirting is so popular is because it causes a lot less anxiety for most people.

Become friends with anxiety.

[–]AFishyFez 3 points3 points [recovered]

God damn, this makes so much sense! I had two girls who went ghost on me, exactly as you described it: respond a few times, them fucking radio silence. Thank you so much for this! It explains everything!

[–]antariusz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My phone was blowing up last night when I was at a strip club, I was on it ignoring the girl sitting next to me, and trying to set something up with a few girls from tinder and okcupid... so she pulled out her own phone, I guess to make me jealous? and it was almost exactly like how the OP described... a shitload of blank numbers and the last message from each of them was all some form of validation.

And yes, I too had the same thing happen to me probably 20 times in the past 5 months, initially things working great and then complete ghost, I attributed it to my game not being tight enough, but now I'm not so sure, I think I will try this out for a while.

[–]Philhelm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I hate texting; not the usefulness of the technology but how it's implemented. It is simply much quicker to have a verbal conversation than to get into long, drawn out texting conversations. When I think of texting, I think of teenage gossip girls. My time is too valuable to spend time texting a woman that isn't gorging upon my man mushroom and is probably receiving hundreds of texts from other men. Fuck that.

[–]Endorsed ContributorCrimsonCapsule 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Amazing. Flash-forward twenty years and we'll be sending carrier pigeons (ONLY for logistics).

The pendulum keeps swinging, doesn't it?

[–][deleted] 4 points4 points

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[–]Luckyluke23 3 points4 points  (0 children)

i think this is one of the best and well written posts i've seen!

it outstands me that guys just don't get it. i mean. you can guess a FEW guys don't get it, but it's like 90% of guys. ( with 5% of guys just opting out.)

the future is scary for dating, i mean when a women can go to places like /r/gonewild post a shitty tit pick and have all the attention she could ever want.

it's scary. I'm 24, so i'm really over the hill. ( in terms of the social media crazy) the kids who are 14 now, my god. I would hate to see them in 10 years.

[–]strps 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Solid post. I definitely can relate to the trend you are describing, even though I don't think it is as pronounced as you make it seem (yet). The electronic medium is for picking out visually attractive people (if it comes with a snap), otherwise you are trying to talk to someone in the midst of a surge of shouting by dropping one liners about how awesome your day is. People, men and women, are seeking genuine, real-life connections, and it is becoming apparent that the electronic medium does not provide this. Validation and attention is one thing, but it does not generate the interactions that most all people actually desire.

Your move to day game seems to have come from a similar sense of how to actually make contact after you realized that it wasn't happening in the night scene. I have to say that when I am setting up new plates (which I have not done in some months due to meeting a gal that I actually like), using OKC type stuff works rather well for me, but I am beyond my 20s and look quite good for my age. But the reality for me is that all of the good relationships that I have brought into my life have come from face to face game, from actually meeting and vetting people in person. In this sense electronic media has always been doomed for generating real contact, it has just taken a window of time to figure this out.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I agree with you. I was really reluctant to post this because I think I'm way out in front of the trend. I predict by the end of 2015 most prominent Game sites (e.g., CH, RooshV, RoK, Rational Male), will be advocating the pick-up-the-phone-and-call approach because the field is growing hostile to text game IME.

I am also beyond my 20s and look good for my age. Your comments about harvesting good returns from face-to-face game is commensurate with my experience.

[–]rpscrote 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think they are already (kinda sorta) there... your message is a take on the idea that online dating is a supplement to face to face approach. While most manosphere writers give that advice, nobody lays out the reason nearly as well as you do as it relates to text-vs-call. You're adding a new level of nuance to the idea. Not trying to shit on you, but I see a relationship between those two topics. But I bet you're right that this advice will get turned into a soundbite by 2015. Btw, I think Rollo reads here occasionally? You might just get in before 2014's out!

[–]antariusz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your post, I know it must have been tempting to just sit on this post instead of sharing your knowledge. I've been noticing the same thing, but attributed it only to my game not being good enough (which it might still not be), but I will try your suggestion a while and see if it helps. I suspect you will be proven correct. I get better results in-person than on okcupid, I suspect I'll get better results with phone game over texting, even though I grew up on the computer and am more comfortable texting (I don't even have phone reception at work, but I can text via wifi)

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Very thought provoking. So you straight up call the girl a couple days after you get her # from the bar?

Do you just delete their number after you leave a VM and proceed only if she contacts you back?

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I don't do Night Game so I don't get her number from the bar. But, yes, usually two days is standard unless I met her on a Thursday-Saturday, then it's Monday at the earliest. Don't want her to think I don't have anything better to do on the weekends than ring her up.

[–]Endorsed ContributorScumbagBillionaire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd forget about leaving voicemail. If she likes you she'll call you or text back.

[–]Mister_JR 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I almost never read a wall-o-text, but this one had great content.

Detergent marketeers figured this out years ago. Tide came out with the box that really stood out on the grocery store shelf - until every other brand did the same. Don't be that same box of detergent.

[–]1R_E_D_1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A tactic I've started doing is whenever I call a girl I only let it ring 3 times, then I hang up. It seems to produce a sense of urgency in the girls I'm calling as they've started picking up a lot faster and I leave fewer voicemails. Might be just my experience though.

[–]punis1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure about all of this... I feel pretty negative about today's situation, I think the game is rigged and it's only going to get worse.

Today's average 18 year old gets more attention from men than my grandmother got during all her life. I don't believe the female brain is wired to deal with this in a healthy way, we as humans evolved in a tribal setting, small communities, the most attractive females would be fought for by the alpha's of the group like today but this happened on a much smaller scale. Nowadays due to globalization, a single hot female has probably more interested suitors than all her own female ancestors combined, just think about it.

I had a female friend who is probably a 8/10 at most, she told me in confidence that she was really confused with all the male attention she receives, she told me that she can't even deal with it most of the time. She keeps making bad decisions even when knowing what's right for her, she can't act on it due to all the distracting noises, pings as OP put it. She wondered how could she pick a right guy from the hundreds that interact with her everyday.

I'm probably wrong but I think this will be a deciding point in our civilization, family unit is shattered, there's no incentive to building a family anymore and it's all downhill from now on...

Let me know if you disagree

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Holy crap! This explains the behavior of one of my plates big time. Thank you, OP!

[–]1ubiety 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think a number of commentors are missing the fundamental difference in how men and women use texting. Men text to get someone's attention and make plans, while women text to receive attention and be notified of plans. When was the last time you got a text from a girl who approached you and asked what you were up to? I'd wager never or very rarely. Texts are unlimited streams of validation for high value women, she doesn't need to give insight, much less interesting conversation because she expects that to be given to her freely (and often) by thirsty betas.

First, this method reframes approach game by forcing the girl to do things she's not normally accustomed to doing. Her normal hook ups are probably visual eye candy, and she could use a masculine personality who knows what he wants. Women love direct, to the point men because it negates any guesswork on her part as to what's happening, where and how. The only mystery is whether she's willing to put herself out their and go on the date. The only time the ball is in her court is when she "yes" or "no". This is the main reason why statements always perform better than questions. If she controls the situation, chances are nothing will pan out and you've wasted your time trying to game her. She will keep things ambiguous or "ghost" if she's too much of a pussy to say no.

Thanks for the insight!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Night game definitely isnt dead, but day game is where you can make genuine connections with high quality women.

[–]Endorsed ContributorScumbagBillionaire 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Night game is dead for the bottom 90%.

Good luck out alpha-ing most guys, dealing with cockblocks, working through logistics, and finding quality pussy that's into you during night game.

You're already fighting a huge uphill battle unless you're tall and good looking because only a small % of girls are down to fuck period, and of the DTF group, how many of those women are attractive?

So now you have alphas and betas competing for the same small number of women who aren't that high quality to begin with. You have women who are 6s getting hit on by guys that are 9s.

Night game isn't dead, but it might as well be. Unless you're tall, attractive, and have good logistics, high status in a niche scene, or are in a city where women specifically travel to to slut it up, you're pretty much wasting your time with night game.

The problem with night game is that most women who go out at night aren't looking to get fucked. They're looking to get validated and get attention. You may see 30 women in the club but only 6 of them are actually sexually available, and of those sexually available, maybe half of that number is attractive.

[–]Talkshitgethit 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Based on my experience, and my experience only, rules 1 and 2 apply. Be attractive, and don't be unattractive. If she's attracted to you enough, it won't matter if you call or text.

But that's just me.

[–]1cover20 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I think that rule is wrong. Physical appearance is one of many attributes a man can use to move a relationship the way he wants. You're thinking women are as focused on looks in a guy, as guys are about looks in a girl. They are not.

This reflects my experience as a guy who's short and only OK looking but gifted with very strong intelligence.

[–]pxmped 1 point2 points  (1 child)

He never said anything about attractiveness being solely based on looks?

[–]Talkshitgethit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Correct. Physical attractiveness is only a fraction of what makes a man attractive.

[–]Soviet_Moose 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Who has the time to text a girl all day every day? A lesser man. Who lacks the courage to pick up the phone and call a girl for a date and, instead, resorts to text? A lesser man. Who tries to force rapport with a prospect, plate, or girlfriend through witty banter in a digital medium? A lesser man."

I read this and my heart literally sank, I felt the most vile taste spread throughout my mouth. I've lurked here for a few months but I think you just forced the pill down permanently. This is me, and I don't like it and something's gotta change.

It literally just clicked that the problem isn't how I interact with women, it's how I interact with myself which will directly correlate to how I interact with women/society in general.

Anyways, thanks for this fantastic post. Realities a bitch, time to make it mine.

[–]RcskaSedd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks man need this, because been having problems seducing girls and inviting them out via text. Pretty much had the same problem as you, flirted a little here and there, set up a date quickly and bam. However I noticed a trend of girls ghosting even if their attraction for me was high, i still get that ghosting problem, but without really noticing i stopped texting and saw them in person (college) and flirted with them through there and obvious their response was much better. Thanks for the info man/

[–]circlhat 1 point2 points  (2 children)

This is good the game is saturated and girls are picking up and increase their hypergamy.

When you first learn game back in 2000 it was fresh and caught girls off guard.

Now that girls sleep with at least 5 guys before they are 21, and younger and younger guys are learning game they become immune.

Texting still works but you need to find a new method and approach and brainstorm (Natural game)

The goal of the game is to make yourself different from the AFC and when the AFC using game we all become AFC. Note you can be the greatest guy in the world with a 6 figure salary but if everyone has a 6 figure salary than it doesn't mean shit because hypergamy doesn't care.

There are methods that work, tinder,okcupid,craigslist I can get 10 girls within a month , but its because I created them myself, I never got them off of google, you want natural game, that no one else can duplicate.

tl;dr If 10 guys walk up to a girl and say "Hey" and one guy comes up and says "Your hot" she will go with the guy who says "Your hot"

If 10 guys walk up to a girl and say "Your hot" and one guy comes up and says "Hey" she will go with the guy who says "Hey" and she will claim she went with him because he is normal and not trying to play games.

In other words you are just experiencing what hypergamy really is.

[–]Endorsed ContributorScumbagBillionaire 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If 10 guys walk up to a girl and say "Hey" and one guy comes up and says "Your hot" she will go with the guy who says "Your hot"

If 10 guys walk up to a girl and say "Your hot" and one guy comes up and says "Hey" she will go with the guy who says "Hey" and she will claim she went with him because he is normal and not trying to play games.

This is a flawed argument. Being "different" doesn't earn you easy points like that. That's how blue pill males think.

Being better than the other men is what will make her say yes. If 10 guys walk up and say "Hey" and one guy walks up and says "You're hot" she will go with who she perceives as having the best combination of looks, money and social status.

What is actually said verbally doesn't really matter as much as we like to think, and most men hate to accept that

[–]circlhat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Being original matters in text games, you can only show you are better by being creative.

[–]kevkos 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I like this post. Some good nuggets mixed in there. A few comments:

  1. Yes, every girl that is semi-good looking has texts/Tinders/OKC messages from guys constantly. But, you're overrating how creative these guys are. The fact is, 90% of the guys these girls are getting messages from don't even bother to google what you did. The messages she is more likely getting are like this:

-Hi -You're hot! -Would you like to have casual sex? -How's your day/week/weekend? -Beautiful eyes

etc.

The examples you gave are from guys who actually did a little research. Again, most will do NO research and just take 10 million stabs in the dark with lame messages like the ones above.

  1. Nobody checks voicemail. I don't. Girls that are hot don't. Nobody has time to even see who called. That's why texting is STILL an acceptable medium to get a date. It's convenient. The last thing you want to do is to make this girl jump through hoops before she even gets a chance to know you.

  2. Texting isn't that complicated. It's NOT about conversation or "seducing her" via text. You simply need to say something amusing, and get her out. Yes, it's not going to work every time. And yes, I have had similar experiences to you- met a girl recently in my social circle, we completely hit it off in person, got her FB, messaged her, and...ghost. She simply either changed her mind about me or had a better offer. Next is the answer.

Better than to give up on text or Tinder, just work on your text game. Even though girls are getting messages left and right, it REALLY doesn't take much to stand out a little from the 90% of guys who don't get it, and never will. You still have competition, but with a little effort, you will narrow it down...and you can even ressurect girls that ghosted you initially via amusing texts.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I agree with you for the most part, but at my age and station in life it's shit or walk. I don't have the time or the energy to deal with today's garden-variety hot chick whose ego is so inflated she can't see past the selfie she just took.

I was standing out from the 90% (nay, 97%) of guys who don't get it and still getting ghosted. I'm noticing a trend, and sharing it with the forum. Let 2015 bear me out. If on 12/31/15 girls are not receptive to picking up the phone and talking to a man or girls are still inexplicably not checking their voicemails (I still think this is such a standard, flimsy girl excuse I don't know how people are falling for it), then I'll eat my shoe.

[–]1oldredder 1 point2 points  (0 children)

HOW you write, text or snapchat & when, and what you did in person first, changes everything. Voicemail: a derelict relic most below age 25 will just not use. At all. That voicemail will sit unchecked till the sun dies.

Dancing monkey: am I understanding I should see myself as a dancing monkey beside the organ-grinder, happy to get a banana or some peanuts? Did I miss something here? Is that all us men should be to get what we want?

Something about that doesn't click with me. Something-something about being the prize & making the bitch chase me, not the other way around.

Night-game: not seeing it myself. Nothing looks different at all to me except I remember years ago not being hit on by hot girls who were already married in those night clubs, with their husbands there. That has changed and got my attention that something has indeed changed.

[–]jdoe5 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm a 20 year old college student. So this pertains a lot to the world I'm growing up in.

I agree completely with the theory here. Everything is spot on about how it's pointless to game down girls over text, and that it demonstrates lower value.

HOWEVER, I disagree slightly with the notion of leaving a voicemail. Maybe OP is used to a different kind of girl, but I think most girls I know either don't check their voicemail or find it weird when guys leave them. It probably varies a lot from region to region and even girl to girl, but it may not be a method usable for some of us. I know a lot of huge alpha guys, and none of them do that.

I think where the value lies in this post is in limiting text conversation as much as possible. If you're talking to a girl on tinder/OKC, get her number as quick as possible. When you have her number, set up a meeting as soon as possible. Maybe even call her to set up logistics. Just don't rely on texting. We live in a world that is rapidly losing the value of actual human communication, so be the guy that takes it back to it.

[–]cyear 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Worth the read. This is so simple yet so brilliant. We are so entrenched in technology we couldn't even see that we were sacrificing our frames. I've deleted all social network apps and will now start using text for logistics only.

Thanks for this post.

[–]trpMilo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you're day gaming girls, your text should just say, hey are you free this sat to get that coffee we talked about

[–]Endorsed Contributormonsieurhire2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ha. I still remember the good old days of "Calling a girl shows WAY too much emotional investment!"

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If you're top 20% medium doesn't matter. Keep improving yourself

[–]Ties5o 1 point2 points  (0 children)

She might think you are top 20% when you meet her on a Friday night, when she is 4 cosmopolitans deep, for that 20 minutes. Four days, 20 male approaches, 10 male texts/tinders, and 100+ male gazes, later... your memory may fade back into the pack. I like the OP's opinion. Calling re-establishes yourself from the pack.

[–]Surf_Or_Die 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A level shit that I never even thought about.

[–]unpluggedoasis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One of the best posts Ive seen in a long time.

[–]iStillEatSnakes 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Had to manually delete post :/

[–]fizzyfuzzy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just popped over from reading this to a social media site and this image was at the top, be careful not to create an impression of "Same shit different day". Make sure your words have purpose when you do call her.

[–]Jf5ve 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a great insightful post. Lots of key points in there as well.

[–]Craniosis 0 points1 point  (3 children)

First, I must say, this is an excellent post. One of the best I've seen in a while. Something I might add as well: why not take it a step further? Facetime that bitch. Bitches love facetime. Your live virtual presence was how everybody thought people of the future would be communicating in the 80s and 90s. If you don't have an iPhone, Skype or Tango are effective alternatives. Snapchat lets you send video too. It helps to set your frame, and show that you aren't afraid to be brash, random, surprising, different, etc. What beta would ever facetime a girl he sheepishly requested "m'lady's number" from? Fucking none, that's who. It shows you aren't afraid of putting yourself out there, and even if she doesn't pick up, she'll be intrigued that you would do something so brazenly self confident.

[–]1cover20 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Girls aren't all that visual so it may not get you much or any extra, anyway the "date" is real facetime. If she wants the facetime she has to show up and create the possibility of physical contact.

[–]RedHeimdall 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I never facetime/skype, any of that... you can't leave a video/audio "voicemail" can you? Live only, they have to pick up right?

[–]Craniosis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Send a Snapchat vid to only them.

[–]mythrowawaybruh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This voicemail thing is a gimmick.

If she likes you, she'll text you back.

Just don't text her too much. You'll look desperate.

[–]phx-au 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's also about presence. That initial string of messages (through txt, tinder, okc, whatever) needs to keep her interest until you close with a firm plan to meet. The sooner the better.

You can't afford to lose the initial tempo, otherwise your delayed response will be buried with the rest.

This, and your problems with night game, is a symptom of the drip feed of attention turning into a firehose. Thanks internet.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Great work, OP. You articulated it very well.

I'm a bit older and I personally hate texting.. Not because I haven't figured out text game but because texting has none of the verbal cues that a straight up convo does.

I noticed a positive uptick in my success with online dating when I started calling them. Normally, when you get their number they expect a text, but instead I call them. Surprises them everytime. I keep it short and set up a date then fade out till date day.

Your analysis was spot on... maybe sidebar material?

As an aside I asked my 16 yr old daughter if she uses VM and she says all her friends do...like wth Dad, like, who doesn't check it, like really?! Maybe times are changing again.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Human beings are social creatures. We crave connections with other humans. I doubt women are experiencing that through reading words on a page. Text game worked wonders for five years. I had two entire relationships comprised only of texting back and forth, nary a phone call was had and yet pussies were smashed. But the time has come to dial a number and communicate like a human being, just like we used to do for the last 150 years since the phone was invented.

[–]TravellingIndian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolute solid post. I reckon this is better than all the top posts I've seen in the past month.

As an aside, many comments say people don't pick up VM but you can also send VM over apps like Whatsapp these days, which would definitely differentiate your approach

[–]tenientj 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Excellent post and it really makes you think "no fucking shit". It takes a ton of effort to type on these touch devices, far too much compared to a phone call. Just the mere act of texting in length you're expanding more effort than a similar phone call. I'm 25 and I'm over "digital". Take the time you'd waste running eGame and use that time to hit the gym.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've been spinning from within my own social circle.

Don't shit where you eat breh.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Extremely informative post. Well written researched and studied, exactly what needs to be posted on here.

Thank you OP I've had this nagging vague idea about online communication and you've hit the nail on the head

[–]symko 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Treat Women like cats, treat men like dogs. You don't have to do shit to get a dog to like you. If you want him to go away, leave. Show him a hint of attention and he's yours. A dog will beg and plead for belly rubs and to play fetch.

Ignore the hell out of women. Like cats, women seem to know when to come around to being near you. The mystery you present is irresistible. Let those other male clowns feed her attention and eventually she'll come around to you. When that happens hold frame. The only cat that I've ever appreciated clawed my door down to get into my room because the cat knew it would be left alone in my room. Women seek attention and they are OD'ing on attention. Starve em for it and they'll make every effort to be near you.

I've never been a fan of theory in attraction but a tool is a tool, use it and don't neglect it or overdo it.

[–]unpluggedoasis 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This might be my favorite post of December. So damn true - the valadation is sickening. Just went on FB a girl I know posted a photo 30 minutes ago - 40 likes.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

this is solid but took you long enough to figure out

[–]clam61 1 points1 points [recovered]

.

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Simple:

Her: blah, blah, blah

You: nice - shit's crazy at work right now call you later

[–]yummyluckycharms 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that your premise that the great recession has killed dating night to be correct, but I feel that your assumption that text is dead is a bit culture dependent.

What I suspsct, is that the confort zone time, the zone where a woman feels comfortable and makes the decision to engage with you or not has contracted. Meaning what would normally occur in 3-4 texts, must happen under 2. Consider tinder - women are making snap decisions on a profile in 5 seconds or less.

Also given the amount of distractions that a woman faces on a daily basis, Im not sure that voice mail is the way to go. If she can't remember to text you because of her eletronically aided ADD, then she would definitely not remember your voice mail. Thus, the ease of text is the key benefit - not the drawback.

Overall, i would argue that the great recession has caused women to zero in on only those traits that are the most important - looks and money - so as to maximize their mating strategy in a time of economic disorder. Game has really taken a hit because, a woman now acts like HR. Looks to see if you hit the checkboxes, if not, automatically delete. And they make that conclusion probably just as quickly as HR - under 5 seconds.

[–]maximus_gladiator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't agree.

Your thinking into it too much. I never call chicks. period.

Leave phone communication to chicks and her girlfriends. When I run solid game with a chick I just met, I don't wait hours or a day to hit her up... I hit her up when I want to chill. So if the vibe was good when we met and I have an urge to let her know I want to hang out with her later tonight, I would literally throw her a text 30 mins or even an hour after we just met.

[–]jimmysavileLad -1 points0 points  (6 children)

I love how you took so long to come up with this theory. I've never gamed girls via text. It's boring and it's tough to communicate frame/tone/humor/emotion ect

[–]16 Endorsed Contributorbankruptedcasino 11 points12 points  (4 children)

Congratulations. Notice, though, how I talked about calling girls instead of texting them in 2009 and that I was consistently getting blown out because it was try-hard then, but the whole point of my post is that it's not try-hard now.

I also took a long time to come up with it because this is a website for sharing information on how to become better men and better at attracting women. I'm sure it's been useful to at least one guy out there and I'm sure he appreciates that I posted it instead of sitting on it for my own personal gain.

[–]rpscrote 2 points3 points  (0 children)

im gonna use this for sure, so here's at least one guy you've helped

[–]feelinglazy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why is calling try hard back then? Do many guys call girls back then?

[–]feelinglazy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why is calling try hard back then? Do many guys call girls back then?

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