The real question: if women "freeze up" in fear of unwanted sex, arent comfortable saying no, or are too afraid to then...

Pope_Lucious · 2017-08-29T01:54:47+00:00

Thank you! Some sanity finally! Either women have enough agency to make choices and accept the potential risks which come along with such liberty OR they need to be protected. You can't have it both ways.

speltspelt · 2017-08-29T01:42:26+00:00

The behavior is universal, it's not exclusive to women. Having read a bunch of prison rape testimonies, men often do not explicitly say no to extremely unwelcome sex.

Cristoff13 · 2017-08-29T04:03:49+00:00

Well I'll say that if sexual assault rates were as high on campuses as some feminists claim (10%, 20% or more) then colleges should be declaring this a national emergency and implementing in loco parentis or even more drastic measures. Feminists would be urging these measures. Parents of daughters would be boycotting colleges. That none of this is happening should strongly suggest these figures are bullshit - and feminists know it.

Otherside19 · 2017-08-29T06:39:29+00:00

It's a plea to an ideal; Women (and men, though they're rarely included) should be able to go out without fear of being raped, assaulted, ect. The argument for consent lies in that most women could easily be overpowered by the average man, and that women have been conditioned to obey men, either through intimidation or tradition, and they may not feel safe resisting.

I have a friend who has been raped multiple times. When the conversation turned towards why she didn't fight back her response was that after the first couple of times she learned that resisting accomplished nothing and could result in potentially more harm to her. Better to be raped and alive then to uselessly fight back and be dead.

"not keep trying to turn courts, judges and campus tribunals into daddy on the porch with a shotgun for them when their free choices go awry"

Can you expand on this?

disposable_pants · 2017-08-29T04:34:04+00:00

As I said in the other thread, one of the first things children are taught when they start to go out in public is to yell and scream and say "no no no" if a bad stranger tries to touch them. People who think that's too much to expect of women are literally saying women should be held to a lower standard than children.

GoldPilot · 2017-08-29T12:06:32+00:00

Because in every situation where a woman can be raped due to her behavior leaving her in a vulnerable spot, there's a man who still shouldn't rape her.

I've been around drunk women plenty of times and it has never occurred to me to rape 'em. That same thing applies to (I hope) the majority of men. That level of responsibility and empathy should be the standard.

Being careless doesn't yield your right to not have a guy do a crime.

These topics lately.

rulenumber303 · 2017-08-29T03:54:11+00:00

Disabled rights issue. You don't get to just assume that everyone you meet is an able bodied person of average or greater competence. If you take a wallet from a blind man or a man with cerebral palsy who is incapable of putting up much protest or an epileptic man who is fitting, it is still theft unless consent to the taking of the wallet had been obtained. If you stick your dick in a terrified looking woman who can barely talk and offers no assistance and needs to be manhandled into position, then she's probably got autism or an anxiety disorder and yeah that's still rape unless you've obtained some sort of active consent.

Unless these understandings of what it is reasonable to do to other people when they can't put up much fight exist, disabled people of some sorts can barely exist in the world. Your right as a TRP woman to have plenty of rapists in the community because the scary side of that sexually pleases you is not more important than other women's right to go about their business and not be raped just because they lose some functionality when scared.

LSTW1234 · 2017-08-29T02:07:51+00:00

[deleted]

purpleppp · 2017-08-29T03:28:34+00:00

While I don't agree with some feminists' view that advising precautions is victim-blaming, I also don't agree that being reckless forfeits your right to file a complaint. If you forget to unlock your door one day and someone steals your tv, it's still theft.

With rape, it's more complicated because there's ambiguity when non-consent is not clearly expressed. I'm against legal affirmative consent standard obviously, but I don't believe in "you're being reckless, deal with the consequences" narrative. I think someone who knowingly takes advantage of another person is still a terrible person and the behavior should be discouraged by other means than the use of bad law. And sometimes you can take all the precautions but end up in a compromising situation with someone you're dating.

Maybe this is a generational thing I don't know. Strangely feminist icon Susan Brownmiller who wrote 'Against Our Will' took your position on this matter.

Hrdbldbbsndrkchclt · 2017-08-29T01:48:23+00:00

yeah Camille Paglia always argues this sort of feminist thinking is from "the ladys of the house" set

upper middle class anglo saxon women

theambivalentrooster · 2017-08-29T02:00:37+00:00

Isn't getting raped the consequence of the woman's choices?

Isn't the woman going to the police/school the consequence for the guy that raped her?

shoup88 · 2017-08-29T01:50:28+00:00

The vast majority of women will say "no stop don't" if they don't want to have sex. Only a small amount of people will experience the freeze response to the point where they cannot verbalize what they want.

The affirmative consent approach is not meant to protect the vast majority of women. It's meant to protect the weakest and most vulnerable.

I'm not sure anyone has claimed that most women won't be able to express themselves. At least not in this sub.

Another angle to this is that most of these girls getting into this situation are often drunk and unsupervised for the first time. They don't necessarily know how they'll respond.

sittinginabaralone · 2017-08-29T01:34:17+00:00

Because they're stupid.

SkookumTree · 2017-08-29T01:39:32+00:00

We have manly warrior fratboys taking advantage of kumbaya granola-munching liberal girls. This is not good. The change in societal norms was incomplete and uneven, and so male sexuality is not being held in check nearly as strongly as it could. However, girls are encouraged to believe that it is, with tragic results.

Some feminists say that women have the right to have a good time and party and engage in high-risk behaviors, and these same feminists say, correctly, that certain aspects of patriarchy and perhaps of the nature of men encourage predatory behavior. They, like many utopian liberals, envision a future where the bad parts of human nature have been excised, and work with religious fervor to bring this about. It works fairly well, when everyone has drunk that particular brand of Kool-Aid. The current incarnation of "Yes means Yes" is trying to build a different mating ritual and set of expectations around sex; it may succeed, it may not. There are cultures where women are very promiscuous indeed and rape is very uncommon, but those cultures didn't resemble our unholy amalgam of traditional patriarchy and feminist ideals.

Entropy-7 · 2017-08-29T03:07:00+00:00

I was spergy as a teenager but having manned-the-fuck-up it has not been an issue for me in the last quarter century or so. Society is still a POS that treats women with kid gloves.

I am well beyond getting wasted in bars but even back in the day it was obvious to me to not mess with an unconscious bitch.

But yes, yes and totally yes that the whole system is lop-sided. I mean seriously: a guy and a girl get shit faced and who draws he rape charge?

i_have_a_semicolon · 2017-08-29T10:48:46+00:00

I agree that woman shouldn't be making themselves a victim. But I think the exception would be mentally unstable/mentally ill women, adolescent women, disabled women. These women are more vulnerable than a typical woman and you can have compassion for the fact that they might not be able to make the best decisions. But should we limit the rights of all women because of a select few? No.

But we shouldn't ignore the responsibility of all women because of the few who can't uphold it.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2017-08-29T12:13:25+00:00

For anyone arguing against this -

Let's say you owned a rape insurance company. Would you pay out to a girl who was raped while drunk?

sittinginabaralone · 2017-08-29T03:25:49+00:00

i personally believe women should be free to do whatever they want but should also be responsible for the consequences of those choices, not keep trying to turn courts, judges and campus tribunals into daddy on the porch with a shotgun for them when their free choices go awry

So getting raped (a crime I believe) and wanting 'courts, judges, and campus tribunals' to do something about it is akin to 'daddy on the porch with a shogun for them when their free choices go awry.' They should be responsible for 'the consequences of those choices,' which I guess means not prosecuting the people who commit a crime, because they are not responsible for 'the consequences of those choices.'

how do feminists, liberals and sex poz people then turn around and justify them having some "right" to go get drunk at parties withotu chaperones, go home alone with strange men, and constantly put themselves in positions where they can be "raped" or what used to be called "taken advantage of"?

I can't speak for 'feminists, liberals, and sex poz people' but I don't know what justifying anything has to do with wanting people to prosecute rape. I wouldn't wish being drunk at parties 'withotu chaperones' upon my worst enemy but I dunno why that means we shouldn't prosecute people who rape others.

I don't really see what the point of this thread was.

SexyMcSexington · 2017-08-29T07:24:50+00:00

Relevant Camille Paglia clip (2 minutes)

"We wanted the freedom to risk rape."

[deleted] · 2017-08-29T13:06:42+00:00

This is really the issue. "Affirmative consent" essentially says to women:

"You're too stupid, shortsighted, emotionally weak, or immature to take care of yourselves. We have to let men, the men you don't want to fuck and aren't attracted to, decide for you whether you can consent to sex. Because you can't do it. We won't make you walk out the consequences of your decisions. We'll make men you aren't going to fuck be responsible for you."

Hawanja · 2017-08-29T15:29:49+00:00

All you have to do is flip the script to see why. If a man "froze up," wasn't comfortable saying no, and was too afraid to.. would he have the rights to go to parties without chaperones, go home with strange women (and other men,) and put themselves in positions where they can be "raped" or what used to be called "taken advantage of?"

If you say yes to that, that being a man should be able to do these things without fear of being raped, then you should say the same for women.

That's a good method to judge if something is misogynist btw - asking how it would be if the roles were reversed. So if you see people complaining about women not making enough money, or commentary about female politicians only being about looks, or women not being allowed to do certain occupations, or other such nonsense, just examine the issue as if it were happening to a man, then see if it passes the smell test. I tell you this because it seems as if you're having trouble in this area.

[deleted] · 2017-08-29T15:33:13+00:00

It gives me a headache how people demanding the most freedom then make the most demands for everything to be legislated just so.

sovietterran · 2017-08-29T16:50:11+00:00

You know, the idea that advertising precautions is victim blaming is stupid, but I don't think people in this thread realize how drunk is rape drunk. Having sex with someone that drunk is definitely a problem warranting prosecution, and no amount of stupid college groups saying that any alcohol is rape will make is so legally.

mcmur · 2017-08-29T17:16:59+00:00

is this not really an argument for the idea that women arent fully responsible adults with agency who can lead independent adult lives? is this not an argumetn for returnign to campus "in loco parentis" rules that had curfews for women and didnt allow mixed sex dorms and mixed company on the dorm floors?

Yes it is.

[deleted] · 2017-08-29T18:46:16+00:00

I agree with the right to revoke consent. I also think it's not too much to ask for a woman to say "stop" if she wants to revoke the consent. I've had this a number of times. I didn't immediately register she wanted to stop. I noticed a change but youd have to realise explicitly that she wanted to stop. Sometimes I was doing doggy and got asked to stop. How the fuck are you supposed to notice a freeze when you're doing doggy?

I understand people can freeze up and not know what to do. But I don't think "stop" is beyond anyone especially if it would 9/10 stop the thing that is supposedly hurting them.

Being able to prove that consent was withdrawn non-verbally would be very complicated and frankly, a waste of peoples time.

eliechallita · 2017-08-29T21:06:14+00:00

I think of it as saying "I should have the ability to walk home after a few pints without getting mugged."

Everybody engages in irresponsible behavior to a certain extent, and sometimes your own actions increase the risk of negative consequences, like walking home drunk, or driving through a sketchy area.

Men get drunk just as often as women at these parties, but somehow we don't really blame them if they get their wallets stolen or if they get beaten up by a belligerent asshole. You don't call for them to have their access to alcohol or parties restricted either. Rather, you rightfully blame the thief or the asshole who physically assaulted them.

So why do you make an exception in order to blame women, or claim that their right to bodily autonomy is mutually exclusive with their ability to have a social life?

HonestCrow · 2017-08-30T13:37:22+00:00

Your position fails because we are not dealing with absolutes. (Obligatory "only a sith..." joke.) We can argue both affirmative consent and teaching people to seek and understand consent because both approaches might help reduce the incidence of rape. Similarly, we can argue against both approaches because they might come with unfortunate consequences. And even if we held fast to one approach or the other, it's incredible to the point of disbelief that we'd eliminate rape altogether.

The problem isn't necessarily in the positions people are espousing, but rather in the idea that you expect too much from words in the first place.

Rian_Stone · 2017-08-31T15:06:25+00:00

The correct use of words to elicit maximum benefit for me. Truth, while nice to have, is not neccisary.

This quote explains these issues simply

randomnightly · 2017-09-04T02:11:14+00:00

It is more of a naive or autistic person issue, not so much men vs women. Those young people who go home with the opposite sex often don't even recognize their sex or it isn't relevant. It took for a long time, almost 30 years for me to recognize that sometimes men see me as female because in my small town I was that weird kid and nerd and nobody noticed my gender.

However, it happens also with males as I've heard. Sweet and naive guys who develop sexually later, go along with bitchy girls who say that if you don't give me sex, I'll scream and say everyone that you tried to rape me. Does it mean they need someone to escort them and can't make friends? Or does male-on-male drugged gay rape mean that gay guys always need their bunch of girlfriends with them? Or course not. People who force themselves on others should not do that.

These are mostly problems wiht young people who haven't experienced much or often anything sexual yet. Today's sexual education is lacking the social components, not just yes and no, but also, how to understand nonverbal communication, how to understand if the other person even likes you, what different social cues mean. Young person who is extremely turned on, thinks the other one is also because he or she doesn't have enough life experience to see it otherwise. If teenagers think that everyone thinks like them in any other area, why is it different with sex? It isn't really.

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pinkgoldrose · 2017-08-29T01:43:48+00:00

women "freeze up" in fear of unwanted sex, arent comfortable saying no, or are too afraid

go get drunk at parties withotu chaperones, go home alone with strange men, and constantly put themselves in positions where they can be "raped"

How are those two things incompatible? These two things are precisely consistent with the whole "affirmative consent" position.

Yonderlander · 2017-08-29T07:56:44+00:00

As someone who values my freedom but remembers the feeling of freezing up when I was much younger, the sensible option is that if you don't say no then you don't have a right to cry rape. However the decent thing for the other person to do is read the other persons body language and genuinely check if they are ok. I'm pretty sure this is how it has worked in practice for a very long time.