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I was shocked to learn about the restrictions...they seem utterly outlandish and outrageous.

A man wants to know if a child is his biologically, and it's illegal for him to send the DNA to a foreign laboratory for analysis? I'm speechless. That's crazy. And it should be available at laboratories within those countries in the first place.

See this Wikipedia article.

From the section on France:

Paternity testing is regulated by the state and only allowed in certain cases:

  • Without a court order the express consent of the person must be obtained in writing before the carrying out of the examination, after the person has been duly informed of its nature and its purpose.
  • With a court order (if consent could not be obtained)

This is partially due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families, with the French government citing psychologists who state that fatherhood is determined by society, rather than biology. French men often circumvent these laws by sending samples of DNA to foreign laboratories, but risk prosecution if caught. The maximum penalty for carrying out secret paternity testing is one year in prison and a €15,000 fine.

From the section on Germany:

Under the Gene Diagnostics Act of 2009, secret paternity testing is illegal. Any paternity testing must be conducted by a licensed physician or by an expert with a university degree in science and special education in parentage testing, and the laboratory carrying out genetic testing must be accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. Full informed consent of both parents is required, and prenatal paternity testing is prohibited, with the exception of sexual abuse and rape cases. Any genetic testing done without the other parent's consent is punishable with a €5,000 fine. Due to an amendment of the civil law section 1598a in 2005, any man who contests paternity no longer automatically severs legal rights and obligations to the child.


[–]super-commenting48 points49 points  (134 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely disgusting. Paternity testing should be standard procedure upon birth.

[–]darla1014 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. should be done right in the hospital.

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman13 points14 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I remember when I was in school, my biology teacher told us that they used to do a project where they'd test their blood type and the blood type of their parents. To show genetic traits worked and whatnot.

He said they stopped because of increased awareness of bloodborne diseases. But actually also because on numerous occasions students would do the test and be like "Hey.... technically it's impossible that my blood group is what it is!?!?". He said they'd have to palm them off with 'oh sometimes there is a mutation or something' or 'you must have done the test wrong, never mind' - because they couldn't tell them 'you're adopted/your sister is actually your mum/your mum had an affair with the milkman'.

Some stones are better not turned.

[–]super-commenting15 points16 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Some stones are better not turned

Disagree. The truth is always best

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Depends.

In the case of "your sister is actually your mum", this stone is indeed better left unturned.

In the case of "you're adopted", this might also be said.

In the case of "you're dad isn't really your dad but doesn't know", well... this thing should be know, but more for the dad's benefit than the kid's.

[–]super-commenting2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I'd always rather know the truth, no matter how uncomfortable

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

It's not always a teacher's job to do that though. That's for the family to decide.

[–]super-commenting4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If the family is trying to deceive their child I will always believe that they are in the wrong. The truth is always justified.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Sometimes it's important to not stir up resentful feelings within a family and that sometimes it's the best to make things get along in harmony. If that means telling a few white lies while the child is too young to understand, that's what they should do.

[–]super-commenting2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Children old enough to understand genetics are old enough to understand family dynamics. Let's face it. When parents lie to their kids they're rarely doing it to protect their kids. They're doing it to protect themselves.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Some parents don't tell their children they were adopted until they are 18 because they want to protect the kids.

[–]JorixKienu5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Some stones are better not turned.

And this is exactly the point.

What if nobody can hide infidelity / incest under a stone anymore ?

Probably our so called modern society will be shaked to the bone. That could be a really different future for us all.

As to adopted children, is that really a problem if they know? Nearly all of them will know, sooner or later. If the adopting parents are caring and loving, there is really a problem? Why hide an act (adoption) that is supposed to be done for giving something to the children ( and not for the "peace of mind" / hypocrisy of the adopting parents) ?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

your sister is actually your mum

What? Can you elaborate on how that works?

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Girl gets pregnant at 15 or whatever. Sent away to have baby. Suddenly there is a new little sister in the family.

Grandparents raising kids is pretty common. Normally they tell the kid they're not actually it's parents, but.... not always.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

What do you mean it's "pretty common?" Do you mean that the dad had a child with his own daughter? That's incredibly disturbing.

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No I mean the teenage daughter gets pregnant by some random guy.

[–]bonersNlaughs0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

A father can impregnate a daughter and stay together with his wife who would raise the child as her daughter.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That happens? That is totally weird and disgusting.

[–]bonersNlaughs1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd imagine it's happened somewhere, I don't have an example. but that is the only way I could think someone's sister could also be their mother.

[–]ozymandias271That's not how evolution works.0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

In some subcultures parents will claim their daughters' teen pregnancy is actually their own unexpected kid.

[–]sunkindonut149Blue Pill Mouse0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I heard about that happening before in tales of the original Ellis Island immigrants in New York. Would it be fucked up if modern liberal families adopted this strategy?

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics25 points26 points  (34 children) | Copy Link

Feminists would never allow that. The right to trick a man in to fatherhood is just as important a right to women as the right for them to totally opt out of parenthood.

[–]sunkindonut149Blue Pill Mouse6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm a feminist and I feel paternity testing should be offered because folks have a right to their genetic information. Without it, inbreeding may happen and lead to health problems.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics8 points9 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why do you think feminists have fought against this?

[–]sunkindonut149Blue Pill Mouse6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Because some of them failed biology 101. You can be a feminist and dumb as a rock. I'm a leftist and many of my fellow leftists are very ignorant of basic economics

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That's it?

They didn't do it to benefit women over men or anything? They literally just don't understand"how babby is made"?

[–]sunkindonut149Blue Pill Mouse0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It doesn't benefit either men or women when your kid is sick af because their parents were brother and sister due to uncertain paternity

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Do you think they banned paternity testing in France because incest was rampant?

I'm really not seeing the connection.

Accidental brother sister mating is pretty uncommon.

And if you get a paternity test that means the kid is already born and it only tells you who the parent is. Not if they're related to the other parent.

So no that doesn't make any sense.

I'll agree feminists tend to reject biology. But that's not what is behind this.

[–]OfSpock7 points8 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

As a feminist, I disagree. I don't want to pay for it, but it you want to, go right ahead.

[–]salami_inferno17 points18 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

So should men not have to pay for woman's birth control? Woman get it free where I live. If woman don't want to pay to help protect men's reproductive freedom then men shouldn't have to do the same.

[–]ozymandias271That's not how evolution works.4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm pretty sure men benefit from women having birth control...

[–]Transmigratory7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure men benefit from completely trusting women when they say they took birth control...

[–]salami_inferno4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And woman woukd benefit from knowing who the father of their child is to avoid future conflict. It's a win-win for everybody involved. Unless she's intentionally trying to lie to a guy she'd be happy to find out the man she thought was the father isn't the father so she can contact the real one and raise a family with that guy.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women pay for men's viagra.

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

My husband would be the one benefiting from the test, not me. He doesn't have doubts and if he did, he could get the test himself.

[–]ProbablyBelievesIt9 points10 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

You didn't answer Salami's question.

[–]OfSpock5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I don't find the two comparable. He's doing the manosphere thing of calling birth control a woman's problem rather than a couples. But fewer unwanted pregnancies do benefit society, whereas paying for a paternity test doesn't. If the man has doubts, he can do the test himself.

[–]KrivenRaven6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

That isn't a "manosphere" stance, that's a feminist "Men Shouldn't Talk About Women's Issues!" stance.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's a manosphere stance where they consider that a woman should be responsible for birth control even though both people benefit equally from its use.

[–]KrivenRaven2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

People don't benefit equally from the use of birth control, and feminists have made birth control a woman's rights issue with year and years of dogma.

Women's birth control is women's sexual liberation in pill form. Not men's.

[–]ProbablyBelievesIt3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's best to leave the allergies as a thrilling surprise.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As most people's are.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He's doing the manosphere thing of calling birth control a woman's problem rather than a couples.

Ultimately, birth control is a female problem first and most.

This doesn't mean that men shouldn't ignore birth control (actually, there's a manosphere consensus to be very careful with unprotected sex precisely because it potentially gives a woman a lot of power over you, and not every woman deserves that kind of power), but generally, women have even more reason to take care of BC.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

So, you're a 'feminist.' The people in France and Germany who put this policy in place are 'feminists.'

Who is right? Whose 'feminism' is correct?

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's like when someone says "I'm a Muslim and I don't agree with [insert horrible policy in Muslim country here]" Obviously that's far better than the canaille who agree. But what matters is the government, not the nice moderate saying "not all ____s." Theocracy and parents are what affect my life, so I'm not going to suddenly get nice and bluepilled about Christianity because a Christian hipster on BuzzFeed tells me to.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Maybe some sort of feminism vote. Or wait, do you have democracy in your country?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Or wait, do you have democracy in your country?

Corporate oligarchy actually.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well there's your problem.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics11 points12 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

The bulk of feminism is against that.

[–]OfSpock4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

You might find individual feminists who are but I don't think you can accurately say the bulk of them are without stats.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No literally the ones setting policy feel the opposite of you.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But /u/5th_Law_of_Robotics, those aren't REAL feminists! REAL feminists just want gender equality!

[–]IIHotelYorbatreats objects like women1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Straw feminists! All the ones on tv and blogs and teaching gender studies aren't REAL feminists!

[–]Transmigratory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is not a compelling point when you consider how this section's ability with using stats.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's interesting.

Can you elaborate on why that it would be good to have it done as a standard procedure upon birth?

[–]super-commenting15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It obviously helps with legal issues surrounding fatherhood and child support and it also helps to have it in the child's record because knowing the father for sure helps you know about genetic diseases to watch out for.

[–]TedCruzEatsBoogers2 points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Because if we are going to argue that men should lose the right to know for certain that a child is their's because it's "not in the best interest of the child" then we should probably also humor those arguments crazy Christians make about women not being allowed to abort a child because it's pretty obvious that also is "not in the best interest of the child".

I don't really care which way you do it, but be consistent.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Unborn fetuses aren't legally considered people. That's the difference.

[–]theiamsamuraiRavishment Realist2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've found that when a woman is at the height of her limerence for you, she will agree to almost anything, so I think French and German men should be educated to have the woman sign a contract at the height of her limerence that she consents to any future paternity tests if they have children together. If she never reaches that level of limerence, then she's just using you as a provider.

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin5 points6 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

I don't think paternity testing should be standard or mandatory. That implies it's a bigger concern than it really is and that it's valid when men are suspicious of their partner's fidelity even with no reason except, well, she's a female which means she's programmed to betray men and can never be trusted...I think seeing as it is really quite uncommon for children to be unknowingly raised or supported by men who are not biologically their fathers (the figures I've found are consistently 2-3%), making it a standard test (with all the cost involved in that) doesn't make any sense. If a there is a questions of child support going on or a child has some genetic disorder, then it's warranted, but simply being born shouldn't mean a paternity test is needed..

Personally, I think it's fair enough that in most cases a court order should be required - I'd be heartbroken if a man I loved and had a child with wouldn't believe it was his without a DNA test and I'd want to know if he really felt that way about me (because it would mean he doesn't actually know me at all)...Now if there is ample evidence a woman is untrustworthy, fair enough, but you have to prove that to someone.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS5 points6 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I think seeing as it is really quite uncommon for children to be unknowingly raised or supported by men who are not biologically their fathers (the figures I've found are consistently 2-3%)

And here we're at an impasse, because I've also read numbers that go as high as 8-10%.

But besides this, "only 2-3%"? Would you also say "nah, it's only 2-3%, we can ignore that problem" if it was an issue that adversely affected women?

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying the problem should be ignored, simply that paternity tests as standard seems like a step too far for the at least 90% (if we take your worst case rate) of women who give birth to children that have the expected father. Making all those women feel like they are essentially untrustworthy, to catch the few that are, is a pretty big price to pay, imo.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Would you say the same about precautions against rape? I mean, in these parts of the world 99% or so of men don't rape, so why bother about it?

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

There are statistics reporting that between 6.5% to 8.8% of men have admitted to committing rape and two surveys showing that up to 30% of men would rape if they could get away with it. Now, even if you don't believe how high those stats are, it's still a bigger problem than female infidelity resulting in uncertain paternity. Also, rape and infidelity are hardly comparable crimes! What kind of rape precautions are standard everywhere anyway? Generally it's just telling women to be careful to reduce the risks....

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Now, even if you don't believe how high those stats are, it's still a bigger problem than female infidelity resulting in uncertain paternity.

Well, according to feminist definitions of rape, you're as likely to become a victim of rape at an American university as you are in some war-torn failed state in Africa, so I won't hold my breath here.

What kind of rape precautions are standard everywhere anyway? Generally it's just telling women to be careful to reduce the risks....

There's a little bit more than that. Rape getting you into prison, for starters.

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Ok, what are your definitions of rape and how do they differ from feminist ones?

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Feminists who cling to that terrible "1 in 5"-"statistic" adher to definitions of rape which are so beyond retarded that it doesn't even warrant a debate.

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well I'm not retarded and am open to other stats and data - so, educate me :)

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'd be heartbroken if a man I loved and had a child with wouldn't believe it was his without a DNA test and I'd want to know if he really felt that way about me (because it would mean he doesn't actually know me at all)

I'd be heartbroken too, but I do think he does have a right to get a paternity test anyways.

I'd probably leave a guy who suspects me that way though. But he should have the right to get a paternity test. Even if he's not legally allowed to get one it doesn't change the fact that he's suspicious anyways.

[–]UhKhatWhen I am formulated, sprawling on a pin1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, you're right. He should have the right, but he should also expect a woman to leave him. This is why I don't like the idea of it being secretive - he can secretly be so distrusting and I'd never know....

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agree. I think they should notify the wife if the husband gets a test.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you arguing it should be mandatory at birth or offered?

[–]super-commenting3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Maybe not mandatory but standard

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not opposed to it being offered - but making it mandatory would be silly and expensive. So I was just curious what way your original comment was leaning.

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (55 children) | Copy Link

As long as you pay for it and don't expect me to, fine.

[–]salami_inferno14 points15 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

They already do genetic tests to look for certain diseases in my country, would not cost a lot to toss a paternity test on top of that.

[–]OfSpock-1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I just don't see a cost benefit analysis to the general public.

[–]salami_inferno11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So why should people give a shit about supporting policies that don't directly benefit them if were taking cost vs benefit here?

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't usually.

[–]ProbablyBelievesIt1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I just don't see a cost benefit analysis to the general public.

You don't see how it would help society to know the child's health risks? Explain how that one works?

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

What percentage of the 1% of people have genetic health risks?

[–]ProbablyBelievesIt2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

All health risks combined? No idea. Why don't you tell me?

Kind of important to know whether or not dad's smoking, and his family suffers from schizophrenia, don't you think? Allergies are passed down too.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not really, unless there's something you can do for it. Phenolketonuria is tested for since treatment begun at birth produces a normal child but lack of treatment results in a retarded child. It's worth it to know even if the disease itself is rare. No one should smoke.

[–]SoupTyrantPurple Pill Onlooker2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Everyone has hereditary stuff that's good to know. A grandfather who died of a heart attack at 40, a couple cousins with liver disease, whatever. Yeah the possibility of this affecting someone with Huntington's disease is super slim but normal day to day hereditary imperfections are very useful to know.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lots of things are good to know. Are they good enough to justify the use of public funds is the question?

[–]SoupTyrantPurple Pill Onlooker0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was responding to the 1% thing. Technically everyone has genetic health risks.

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only13 points14 points  (40 children) | Copy Link

So men should not pay for women's health insurance either?

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (39 children) | Copy Link

It would be my husband who was benefiting. And he has no doubts. You are asking people to reassure you of your shitty choice in partner.

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only14 points15 points  (31 children) | Copy Link

It benefits men, period. Free birth control benefits women, and men are forced to pay for it. Should that be the case?

[–]OfSpock9 points10 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Men benefit when their sex partner doesn't have a child that neither of them want.

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only16 points17 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

Men who don't have sex are forced to pay for it too. Men who use condoms pay for it too. Men who have had a vasectomy pay for it too. Men who want children, surprise, pay for it too!

What we have here is essentially a double standard in feminism you're exposing. It's ok to make men to pay for birth control or other women-only services because [insert bullshit reason], but it is absolutely not ok to make women to pay for something that benefits men because it's unfaaaaair!

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

No, my argument is that lots of people use birth control and about 1% of people need to be concerned about their child's paternity.

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only7 points8 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

So it's ok that men are forced to pay for it? Most women use tampons or pads, should men pay for that too?

[–]OfSpock2 points3 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

People pay for birth control. I do and my husband has had a vasectomy, so I don't personally use it. Society benefits when fewer unwanted children are born.

[–]Casshern1973Purple Pill Man 43 yo2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Potentially 100% of them are. Mater semper certa said the latins, the mother is always sure.

[–]nemma8830/F/UK INFP -t. Engaged1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think he means statistically about 1-3% [est] of births are assigned to the wrong paternity.

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

We're all forced to pay for it. And we should do, happily. From an economic standpoint providing a population with free birth control is a massive cost saving strategy. Condoms/Pills/IUDs cost a lot less than welfare for kids parents can't afford/state care for children whose parents can't care for them/the various social fallout that occurs when poorer people are unable to control their own reproduction.

Even if you don't care about women's reproductive issues, or children who have to grow up unwanted, you should care about all the tax it means you don't have to pay.

Nations/states that don't supply free birth control don't because they think voters will be upset by puritanical ideas about encouraging naughty evil sex or 'I don't mind paying for innocent kids not to live on the street, but I don't want to pay for other people to have sex!!'. Because every government knows from a budget/tax lowering standpoint it's absolutely in their best interests to put a big bowl of free condoms and pills on every street corner.

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Copying my lower reply:

Society will absolutely benefit if every man gains the same level of assurance of his children being his own as women do. And it's cheap. A one time $100 expense per child tops. But no, since it benefits mostly men, feminism is heavily against it.

[–]catemlBlue Pill Woman2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Society will absolutely benefit if every man gains the same level of assurance of his children being his own as women do

Would it, though? How do you know that for sure?
I mean, at the moment dads are being presented with babies and told 'this is your baby' and most of them act accordingly (providing money, shelter, love and support to that child) - either while together with the mother or as co-parents. If whatever percentage of the time the guy finds out that it isn't his, isn't there a good chance that guy is just going to walk away and not provide those things to the mother? So now this child is missing the support of that parent, and also there is a good chance the state will have to help in providing for that child and that will cost money. It may be a better situation for the man, but for the child (who society will always prize above all others).... not necessarily.

Compare that to free birth control provisions which are very well documented to provide economic and social benefit, as well as population size control. The paternity test thing is a lot more grey in terms of social benefit or economic outcomes.

I'm not against it perse. I think that telling someone that a child is their's biologically when you know/suspect it is not, and presumably in most cases this is preceded by infidelity, is a level of deception which is outright entirely unethical. I have no interest in defending the right of a woman to not be found out in that. I think an individual who requests one should absolutely be allowed to have one legally (I don't think it should be mandatory, a lot of people simply do not want to know and that should be respected, and I'm not entirely convinced that it should come at no personal cost to that individual). Doesn't necessarily mean it would be of a benefit to society to have free paternity testing as standard for every child born (though obviously those men who wish to have this done are part of society, I get that).

[–]classycharacter8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

By that logic, it would be better for all women to stay at home with the child and NEVER work again to take care of them during their whole childhood since "the best interests of the child come first" right?

So lets restrict women to the home since the "child comes first" right?

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The paternity test thing is a lot more grey in terms of social benefit or economic outcomes.

It's also unbelievably cheaper. And you completely missed my point about trust in the family going down if the man requests the test by his own vs when it's there by default.

[–]KrivenRaven5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

You're unwilling to pay for something from which your husband benefits?

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

If a woman doesn't cheat on her husband, then the husband doesn't benefit from paternity tests if all of their children are his anyways.

[–]KrivenRaven2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Not the point. Her argument for not paying for it is, as directly quoted:

It would be my husband who was benefiting.

I'm calling out the inanity of this perspective, not arguing who does or does not benefit.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Theoretically, it would be my husband who would benefit. In reality he wouldn't because he has no reason to doubt. That was poorly phrased.

[–]KrivenRaven2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You're still dodging the question. Whether your husband has doubt or not has nothing to do with your unwillingness to pay for something which benefits your husband.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I rephrased. It wouldn't benefit him.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

How about he pays for it if the kid is his and she pays otherwise.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm good with that.

[–]wub123433 points34 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

It is ridiculous, but governments tend to do ridiculous things, like saying plants are illegal.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Oh yeah, strychnine and castor beans should totally be available to the public.

/s

[–]x7e210 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

They should. The use of such materials to violate the non aggression principle should face severe consequences, however.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is fucking retarded, castor beans absolutely should not be a casual thing to have around. Anything that eats even a small amount of them dies a horrible death.

[–]trpobservereats ass0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So what? Why shouldn't people have the right to put whatever they want in their own bodies?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You know anyone can just grow a castor plant or indeed one of the many other poisonous plants that exist in their gardens right? Castor beans are not illegal.

Which is pretty ironic really. Poisonous plants are legal to grow, plants that are clinically proven to inhibit cancer cell growth and act as non-addictive painkillers, anticonvulsants, and anxiolytics are illegal.

It's almost as if governments are run by corrupt idiots who base their policies on whoever pays the highest bribe.

[–]Sandralees points points [recovered] | Copy Link

Because you aren't considering the situation where a former girlfriend comes and steals your DNA behind your back to test if the baby she had without your consent is your own. If you see it from this point of view you'll understand that it is normal that they should get your consent before performing a paternity test. It's your DNA, no-one has the right to collect it/use it without your consent.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

As opposed to the current system where it's assumed the baby is your own by default?

[–]SoupTyrantPurple Pill Onlooker3 points4 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

It's your DNA, no-one has the right to collect it/use it without your consent.

Well the man would need his own DNA and a DNA sample of the child, of whom, he is the legal guardian by default. It wouldn't require consent of the other adult in the situation.

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Actually, the test is much more precise when the lab has both parents' DNA.

[–]SoupTyrantPurple Pill Onlooker1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Actually, the test is much more precise when the lab has both parents' DNA.

What do you mean by "much more precise"? I'm looking it up now and it looks like any inaccuracies are essentially negligible.

I mean everything I'm seeing says that including the mother increases accuracy from 99.99% to 99.999%. That's not really "much more precise".

[–]bigmfkrNo pills, injectables only0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Didn't know that.

[–]Sandralees points points [recovered] | Copy Link

You did not answer my question. Is a woman allowed to test the DNA of a potential father without his consent?

[–]SoupTyrantPurple Pill Onlooker1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

I'm not who you were replying to, but even so why would that question even be relevant in this context?

[–]Sandralees points points [recovered] | Copy Link

How isn't it relevant? The law is not about your personal interest as a man. It is supposed to be fair and to cater for all potential cases. So is a woman allowed to steal your DNA and test ir without your knowledge or consent?

[–]SoupTyrantPurple Pill Onlooker0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

No. But a woman's dna isn't necessary for a paternity test. Her dna is not needed period, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[–]Sandralees points points [recovered] | Copy Link

That you and your partner have equal access to the information concerning the baby.

[–]SoupTyrantPurple Pill Onlooker0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

The mother is always 100% sure she is the mother. The father being 100% sure he is the father IS equal.

[–][deleted]  (5 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]prodigy2throw#Transracial17 points18 points  (25 children) | Copy Link

Surprised it's not illegal in the Nordic countries

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

I'm not sure about the Nordic countries. Why would you expect that it would be illegal there?

[–]RojoEscarlataRed Pill6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

German and Swedish "men" don't need to be forced, they will gladly be cucked and even happier if the baby is not white.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Holy shit man sexism and racism in the same sentence.

Have you ever been in a nordic country? Ever? The men there are quite masculine and many of them they look up to their viking heritage. People can be masculine and support women's rights.

The redpill stereotype "Nordic guys are effete guys who have a cuckold fetish" is really not true.

[–]trpobservereats ass0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The men there are quite masculine and many of them they look up to their viking heritage

Some of them do. They are being phased out.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

A lot of masculine Chads are card carrying feminists, you know?

[–]trpobservereats ass0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thats true

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah, I've noticed that people often mistake something externally imposed by the government for something people organically support. As if male Germans are mostly like Amy Biehl's family.

Just because Bill Clinton pushed [insert policy here] doesn't mean I support said policy. I didn't get a say in the matter.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There are also a lot of Nordic guys who support feminism and are still masculine.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards5 points6 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

"muh evil fempire of sjw totalitarian oppressing all white males" - redpillers

[–]prodigy2throw#Transracial20 points21 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Your words not mine

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

We Germans beat the nordic countries in "equality" sometimes.

For example up until 2011 every man had to serve one year in the military or do civil service at a hospital or something with almost no pay.

Women didn't have to do the same and weren't allowed to.

Feminists and women successfully fought against the "women aren't allowed to" part, so when I finished high school, the situation was as follows:

Men had to do one year in the military/civil service while women were allowed to do so if they wanted to, but didn't have to.

Now that's equality even the nordic countries can't keep up with.

[–]prodigy2throw#Transracial16 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So equal

[–]harbo5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Now that's equality even the nordic countries can't keep up with.

Sure they can. In Finland women can serve in the military for the same stint that is legally obligatory for all men - and it was even legislated using exactly the same rhetoric of it being unjust if women can't fly fighter jets.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why can't women fly fighter jets? Do fighter jets have a penis activated ignition or something? Give me 1 good reason why women can't be good fighter pilots.

[–]trpobservereats ass1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

While I don't care if women are fighter pilots, a lot of people think the issue with women in those combat roles is purely about physical strength. Its not. The psychology of groups of young males is something that has been used by militaries for thousands of years to turn them into war machines. Women do not have that same psychology, that same idea of family-like bonds to a close group of peers, and they can mess up those male groups, can change their ability to do their jobs at the optimal level. That is easily a bigger issue than the ability of a woman to carry a wounded comrade to safety or move a control stick around.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards5 points6 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Cmon you know that's what you were thinking.

Nordic countries are feminist countries, so anything that helps men must be illegal. Paternity tests help men. So they must be illegal in nordic countries.

[–]prodigy2throw#Transracial4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Can't tell me it's not surprising to you either

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

No it's not. Because I don't see feminism as a way to oppress men. Nordic countries are the first countries to include paternity leave for men and many other things that mens rights activists actually want.

[–]prodigy2throw#Transracial8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So do you agree or disagree with this German and French law?

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Disagree, I support paternity tests.

I also doubt the reason why this law exists is feminism and not other reasons like costs or maybe because some non court ordered paternity tests are not accurate.

Germany isn't exactly a feminist place, it actually has quite traditional gender roles in some parts. Same with France. They're literally a country that tells women what they can't legally wear at beaches, after all. France is also a really traditional place in terms of their dating culture.

More feminist than America, probably. "Super fempire matriarchy oppressing men"? No.

By the way nordic countries aren't a matriarchy either despite what you guys at TRP say.

[–]Alth12Purple Pill Man2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

To be fair to France a lot of that's because those pesky troublemakers do like hiding behind women's clothing choices or requirements. Really hard to catch a guy who has shot up somewhere when he slips on a burqa and can ghost past police.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Disagree, I support paternity tests.

No true feminist then.

I also doubt the reason why this law exists is feminism and not other reasons like costs or maybe because some non court ordered paternity tests are not accurate.

Literally it was a policy lobbied for by feminists.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Can you deny that these bans were pushed by feminists?

[–]trpobservereats ass0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

muh evil fempire of sjw totalitarian oppressing all white males

They aren't, but they sure do want to!

[–]Battle-Scars14 points15 points  (18 children) | Copy Link

Mandatory paternity testing at birth would solve all this nonsensical hand-wringing. Of course it would cause a monumental shit show for some unsuspecting "fathers" if the test came out that the kid wasn't his, but that is a very small percentage.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

unnecessary testing is what causes medical prices to go up. Either you know who the father is. OR - you don't and it doesn't matter, or you don't and it does matter. In only 1 or those 3 situations is testing necessary

You could offer as an option at the hospital prior to a birth certificate being signed, but it's rather silly to make everyone do it when - as you stated - the number that would come back "not the father' would be a very small percentage.

[–]NalkaNalkayou call it virtue, I call it cowardice13 points14 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

It's actually surprisingly high. Studies have been done.

[–]The_LitzRed Pill Man5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Surprising low actually.

Some sources peg it at 20%. Based on actual tests performed, but these test were done by men who had a sneaky suspicion something was afoot.

Other sources puts it at between 1 and 3.5 % based on tests on kids with gene specific diseases and conditions, who had to inherit the gene from both parents to present the disease. This is seen as the most reliable figure.

But even at 1%, someone you know is being cucked.

[–]RojoEscarlataRed Pill2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you have the 1-3.5% sources?

[–]The_LitzRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I read it in Paleofantasy by Marlene Zuk. Most of the data in the book is referenced to some or other source. Seems legit enough.

[–]The_LitzRed Pill Man0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Another point to consider, I really think it differs from region to region and from one culture to another.

And consider the historical perspective. During WW 2 with tons of young men gone from home there would also be an increase in infidelity on the womens side, and likewise the men would also be taking their chances with any woman they would meet on foreign soil.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Please present studies - goodness this is Reddit after all. :)

[–]DrBobyRed Pill dad10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Problem is when the woman knows (or have doubts), but the not father has no doubts (but he's wrong), or he has doubts and his wife shame him for not trusting her.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Don't breed with shitty people? Have the balls to say "I'd like a paternity test"? I don't know why we have to make this a nanny state issue where every child everywhere is tested because of a small % of people being raised by non-bio dad.

[–]DrBobyRed Pill dad0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not me, I have no problem myself, of course it could have been easier if it was mandatory and I didn't have to argue with my wife. But I'm ok.

I'm talking on the behalf of the other males.

It's not a small % it's between 3% to 15% depending on the studies. It's a lot.

[–]Battle-Scars7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

The state of California already tests for for up to 64 infant syndromes/diseases and the State pays for it. Adding $10 for a paternity test would not raise premiums. If it's mandatory you remove all the "what, you don't trust me?" arguments. The parents wouldn't have to get the results if they don't want to. If the man finds out he is not the father he can choose to stay or leave. The State could go after the real father for support.

[–]OfSpock0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Do you know how much a paternity test costs?

[–]Battle-Scars10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Currently, legal is $300 and retail is $30. It would take Jeff Bezos or someone like him about 6 months to bring the cost down to a negligible amount based on the volume of all the babies born in the U.S.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

But with our fucked, our USA healthcare system is you really think the $ will come down? Hospitals will charge your insurance $100 for an aspirin.

The parents wouldn't have to get the results if they don't want to.

So then what's the point of testing? Like I said - you can offer it as an option but there is no point in making it mandatory at birth. Though I would argue it should be mandatory before a court can order a man to pay any sort of child support. That should be common practice. If mom wants child support then mandatory paternity test.

[–]Battle-Scars1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I do. The current newborn screening for 58 conditions is $102. A private company would bring the price down with economy of scale.

I like your idea of paternity test before any support but there would be emotional distress for both the father and child at that point since they would have already bonded. If he knew from day 1 he could have the option to not bond with the child and the woman can give the opportunity to bond with the real father.

A woman is 100% certain that the child is hers, why shouldn't a man be given the same right?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I do. The current newborn screening for 58 conditions is $102. A private company would bring the price down with economy of scale.

So in Michigan, if I wanted the 10wk screening it would have been around $450 because my insurance would not have covered any part. I'm young, healthy weight, with no family history. So they can't bill it as diagnostic, it's my choice to have it done. Cool that Cali pays - but most states I don't think do. We opted out simply because screw paying that much.

A woman is 100% certain that the child is hers, why shouldn't a man be given the same right?

Then he should have a test done. Germany/France have it wrong to make it harder/illegal to get one done. But here in the US he can have one done at any time. I'm not arguing he shouldn't have it done if he wants it. I'm saying it shouldn't be mandatory.

[–]Battle-Scars1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Right, if it is a countrywide mandate the price goes down and everybody gets it covered. The cost really is not a big deal when you factor into the cost of false paternity. My insurance went up triple thanks to lovely Obamacare so I could pay for uninsured people, I didn't get a choice in that matter but I still paid.

If it is mandatory there is no "what you don't trust me argument" which is a really big deal with couples. Mandatory removes all of that awkwardness. In one generation people will think its always been that way and will be as insignificant as a diabetes test. Unless of course you are committing paternity fraud.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is completely ridiculous.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas15 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

These laws are absurd and I am mind blown they were ever passed. Dystopian AF.

At least France is honest about their reason, even if it's shitty. I was expecting them to hide behind some legal construct of invasion of privacy or patient consent or something.

IMO this will long term lead to men becoming even less invested in kids and families, because it will be impossible to determine paternity and men will know women mess around a lot, to the point where laws had to be made to protect children from being discovered as not their "fathers."

Also, LMAO at those sociologists claiming society defines paternity rather than biology. It's like they took TRP's "paranoid" suspicions about the feminine imperative and tried to make them real.

[–]Alth12Purple Pill Man8 points9 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Well in Germany's case you just pay the fine. Saving yourself a lot of dough long term if you prove you ain't the father. Plus 5000 euros for piece of mind to me is alright.

France is fucked up though in that regard.

I wouldn't be with a woman who was against the idea of paternity tests though. I actually spoke about this to women friends of mine and they all pretty much said that they have no problem with them, and that women who are against them is more a case they have something to hide.

I think they should be mandatory at birth. It would save a lot of potential emotional turmoil or all parties and the pain of family courts trying to wade through the mess.

[–]salami_inferno0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

5000 euros for a paternity test? That's insane. It costs nowhere near that to have it done. This is bullshit deterence plain and simple. How is anybody but the well off able to pull that money together? That's like saying birth control is available to all woman but costs 400 euros a month.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

5000 euros for a paternity test?

That's the penalty if you're caught having done the test illegally.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

women who are against them is more a case they have something to hide.

I'd be against my husband getting one because it shows he doesn't trust me. He should be legally allowed to get a test, but I am also allowed to leave him because the lack of trust isn't going to work out in the long run.

[–]Alth12Purple Pill Man1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Then that's your prerogative. Women generally don't understand men's issues with paternity anyway.

As I said though, make them mandatory and it'd save all that type of thing. Man gets certainty, kid doesn't have to deal with a dad walking out years down the line if he finds out he isn't the father, courts avoid the hassle and the woman doesn't have to deal with any issues 're 'trust'

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then that's your prerogative. Women generally don't understand men's issues with paternity anyway. As I said though, make them mandatory and it'd save all that type of thing

It costs a lot of tax money for something that will only apply to 1% of people.

[–]Alth12Purple Pill Man1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Could use a similar argument for abortions. When you do the maths of abortions to live births, cross it with the total amount of births. Assume one child per pregnancy, then use total population of the country. You'll get that a very small percentage of the population gets an abortion every year. People still expect governments to pay for them.

1% is also for paternity fraud, not misattributed paternity, which are different things. Misattributed paternity is up to 12% of births and those figures don't include fraud. It's not even just for men either, it's better for the baby if true paternity is known due to possibility of hereditary health issues.

Besides using statistics for paternity fraud is misleading. Hardly any in depth analysis with samples exists. The 1% figure comes from cases of it coming to light.

[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad11 points12 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Well ive heard it explained that paternity testing isnt outlawed, but that it has to be court ordered if you want it to count in court. That seems to be different than what you posted, so im going to assume what you wrote above is true.

I think what this says is that there are a lot of things society does and has done in the past that seem crazy and strange when you look at the practice in isolation. Religion - talking snakes? Original sin? Sacrificing animals? Total craziness.

Similar things can be said for oddball rules that parents have for young children.

Then you get a little older and wiser and take a step back and realize that yes, the individual components are non-sensical, but they were put in place because people (and children) cant be trusted to behave peoperly if they knew the truth. Even though the boogeyman was a lie, it got you to go to bed on time, and that was good for you.

What this says is that the governments of france and germany have realized that people are a bunch of cheating liars and they are trying to sweep it under the rug because the truth would cause more harm than good overall. Theyd rather people live a happy lie and keep everyone rowing in the same direction.

[–]dakruNeither9 points10 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well ive heard it explained that paternity testing isnt outlawed, but that it has to be court ordered if you want it to count in court. That seems to be different than what you posted, so im going to assume what you wrote above is true.

I don't know about Germany (do any of our resident Germans have any insight? /u/exit_sandman).

But as far as I can tell for France, the restrictions apply to paternity testing in general, not just to court-admissible paternity testing. (Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer or from France.)

Look at Article 226-28 of the Code pénal:

Le fait de rechercher l'identification par ses empreintes génétiques d'une personne en dehors des cas prévus à l'article 16-11 du code civil ou en dehors d'une mesure d'enquête ou d'instruction diligentée lors d'une procédure de vérification d'un acte de l'état civil entreprise par les autorités diplomatiques ou consulaires dans le cadre des dispositions de l'article L. 111-6 du code de l'entrée et du séjour des étrangers et du droit d'asile est puni d'un an d'emprisonnement ou de 15 000 euros d'amende.

It looks like there's a general ban on DNA profiling (to be punished with imprisonment or a fine of 15,000 euros), with some special cases given an exception. Official purposes are mention in that text, but it also references Article 16-11 of the Code civil:

L'identification d'une personne par ses empreintes génétiques ne peut être recherchée que :

1° Dans le cadre de mesures d'enquête ou d'instruction diligentées lors d'une procédure judiciaire ;

2° A des fins médicales ou de recherche scientifique ;

3° Aux fins d'établir, lorsqu'elle est inconnue, l'identité de personnes décédées ;

4° Dans les conditions prévues à l'article L. 2381-1 du code de la défense.

Which gives a few more exceptions: a judicial inquiry, medical/scientific purposes, identifying deceased people, and then there's another link to Article L2381-1 of the Code de la défense, which also allows some military purposes.

Going back to the Article 226-28 of the Code pénal, providing a genetic testing service also seems to be prohibited.

Est puni des mêmes peines le fait de divulguer des informations relatives à l'identification d'une personne par ses empreintes génétiques ou de procéder à l'examen des caractéristiques génétiques d'une personne ou à l'identification d'une personne par ses empreintes génétiques sans être titulaire de l'agrément prévu à l'article L. 1131-3 du code de la santé publique et de l'autorisation prévue à l'article L. 1131-2-1 du même code.

[–]MorpheusGodOfDreamsCaught Red Handed13 points14 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

France is literally cucked.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

France is weird in their gender roles. They have a president who cheated on his wife and actually gained ratings for it, they have laws that tell women what they can and cannot wear at the beach, but yet they also have a lot of feminist laws.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know about Germany (do any of our resident Germans have any insight? /u/exit_sandman).

Secret paternity tests without the consent of the child without the mother's consent are illegal, but you may force your right to have one administered by going to the courts.

If I was in such a situation where I was doubtful, I would make a secret test, and if that test came out negative I would enforce my right to officially have it tested.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

^

[–]Casshern1973Purple Pill Man 43 yo1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is always a mistake to state clearly to somebody that you are trying to fool them. If the State is going to protect a cheater then the State and the society can burn in hell.

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>7 points8 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Germany's policy isn't unreasonable. France's one is hilarious especially:

This is partially due to the official desire to "preserve the peace" within French families

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why is Germany's policy reasonable?

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It just establishes the standard in which people must follow in order for the paternity testing to be considered valid.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

France has one of the highest rates of infidelity in Europe as far as I know.

[–]shoup88Report me bitch4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's unfair government overreach and I think it should be overturned. Men should not be punished for their spouses possible infidelity "for the good of society".

[–]daveofmarsFor Martian Independence5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

They prefer to keep the family intact under false pretenses than allow men to know the truth.

And who do you have to be to deny people the truth? What are you so afraid of?

[–]DemonConsulting4" Dragon0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

And who do you have to be to deny people the truth? What are you so afraid of?

The state is afraid of paying money. They would rather have someone else pay it, as would the rest of the population who pay taxes. If it comes out that the husband is not the father and the actual father is unknown, the rest of the family is far more likely to end up on welfare (since letting the kids starve or join a gang isn't really a good option for society either).

In comparison, the husband dying without ever knowing that the child wasn't biologically his, doesn't suffer as an individual during his lifetime - ignorance is bliss and so on. Obviously this only works if it never comes out

[–]salami_inferno0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Only if they stop keeping track of who's kid is who's in a maternity ward. If it doesn't matter if the father's knows it's his kid or not then it shouldn't matter for the mother either.

[–]DemonConsulting4" Dragon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Kids get swapped all the time - it only becomes an issue once they find out

[–]LyaninaBlue Pill6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

So, a few clarifications:

  • In general, this is something very few people in France care about. And I mean few enough that you just don't hear about it, at all, and many people don't even know it's illegal because they don't think about it. Even in countries where it is legal, I doubt it's a majority of fathers or presumed fathers resorting to its use. (This does not mean I am against paternity testing; I just find it very amusing that foreigners on the internet are so intrigued by a law that people here don't give a second (or in some cases, even a first) thought.)

  • Fact: Yes, there has to be a court order, so you can't get a paternity test on a whim. But it's not like it's completely forbidden either. If you're legally his father but never raised him, you have 10 years to contest paternity. If you did contribute to his education, you have 5 years until after you stop being involved in raising him. But if you raised him for more than 5 years, your paternity can never be contested. In the eyes of the law, you're the kid's dad now.

  • Fact: In France, outside of marriage, you have to "acknowledge" (reconnaître) a child as yours to get all the rights and duties of a parent (when you're married you're automatically assumed to be the father unless another guy claims paternity first). You can do this before or after the birth. If you refuse to do so, the mother can go to court (if she wants child support), with proof that she and you were involved at the time of conception, and they will order a paternity test. This is the most popular reason for asking for a IGNA (Genetics Institute of Nantes) paternity test: at the mother's initiative. The test requires the father's consent, but if he doesn't consent the court is allowed to take that as an admission of paternity. If the test reveals he isn't the father, he can sue the mother.

Now, to answer the question about what I think about it... I think they should be legal. I think the father and the kid have a right to know. But I kind of understand why it has to go before the court first, and I won't take to the streets to protest it if the men aren't doing it. In France at least, the definition of parenthood isn't only biological (you can adopt, you can acknowledge a kid that isn't biologically yours, etc). So in cases where you've spent the last 10 years raising a kid you've acknowledged... I can kind of see why the law wouldn't want to say you're not the parent. But I don't think it's their right.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

From the post you linked

If I've read the (Swedish) law text correctly a woman claiming someone to be the father isn't sufficient evidence of him being the father.

That's not the case here, which is why there are paternity tests and whatnot.

Lol no, that's exactly the case in America. In order for a woman to receive child support if they're not married she has to actually prove he's the father.

MRAs are just making shit up to get paranoid about right now.

lol someone even brought up the fact that it sounds so red pill on that thread. Redpill is getting more popular, guys. Someday I'll be able to walk on the street and hear people talking about the pillosphere.

[–]LyaninaBlue Pill0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's reddit. A lot of redditors have heard of TRP, yeah.

[–]TomHicksAntifeminist sans pills0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But if you raised him for more than 5 years, your paternity can never be contested. In the eyes of the law, you're the kid's dad now.

So fucking horrific. Forcing men to pay their cheating exes for a bastard they were fooled into raising.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think it's a great example of how feminism is entirely not for equal rights and given their druthers would sell men out without a second thought.

[–]monkeysinmypocket5 points6 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't appear to be "illegal" in either place...

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

You could sum it up as "illegal if you don't talk about it with the mother". You can't do it secretly.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

What if the mother refuses, but you still want to know if the child is yours?

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Then you'll get a court order and she will be notified that you want a test.

[–]Leinadro11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And from what I understand in France at least she has the power to stop that test from happening.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Is getting the court order hard?

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

From what I have read (and I did some research back then) it's not hard at all.

The only problem is that you can't do it in secret. And this could lead to "why don't you trust me?!?!!!!!" That is keeping a lot of men from doing it.

Other than that it doesn't seem to be a problem.

[–]salami_inferno3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They should make it illegal to get an abortion without the father signing off saying she ran it past him.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The only problem is that you can't do it in secret. And this could lead to "why don't you trust me?!?!!!!!" That is keeping a lot of men from doing it.

Which is why it would be best practice to do one illegally and when the result is negative, repeat it officially. Totally worth the second test.

[–]Temperfuelmma4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

like the "illegal to get abortion if you don't talk about it with the father" kind of thing in the arab countries

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it should be done secretly but I don't think that the wife should have to consent either. But she should be notified about it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Did I make an error? Can you elaborate?

[–]PurpleBanner2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

yeah, its not illegal in either country.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

It's hardly a bigger problem than not having free speech, over 50% income tax, or any of the other insane self imposed policies those fools vote for

I was shocked to learn about the restrictions...they seem utterly outlandish and outrageous.

Par for the course

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards12 points13 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

over 50% income tax

Keep in mind that the European income tax actually pays for things like healthcare and education whereas American income tax goes into politicians big pockets and their big corporation buddies.

It's hardly a bigger problem than not having free speech

The only limit to "free speech" in Germany is that it's illegal to be a nazi. Most people in Germany support this law and it's a bit outrageous to compare this to not having free speech.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I did the figures once. My tax and private health insurance came out to less than the tax and health insurance of an American with the same income.

This was about ten years ago, so I don't have the figures but it was a few thousand dollars difference.

[–]salami_inferno7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I totally get why Americans hate taxes. For them it just gets wasted on bullshit wars and corruption. Very little of it actually is spent effectively helping their population. I'd hate taxes as well if my government was constantly trying to fuck me in the ass.

[–]OfSpock1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

America has just added another layer of profit making in Health care (HMOs). You can't do that and expect to have anything except higher costs.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't hate taxes, I hate the shitty politicians people keep electing that just eat up our taxes for their bullshit trips and the fact that Melania doesn't want to live in the White House so we have to pay for her shit.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

And low-trust society makes it worse. Take the overwhelming majority of non-European countries and you'll see the exact same pattern. I don't need to tell you where your taxes go in Pakistan or Mali.

I really fucking hate reality. I hate it so very, very much.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The only limit to "free speech" in Germany is that it's illegal to be a nazi.

Except that the spectrum of "acceptable" opinions is getting progressively more narrow, and it's quite easy to end up on the wrong side of said narrowly defined "democratic consensus".

And our government (or their handymen) has done quite a lot of shitty and underhanded stuff to muffle the controversy around their retarded policy. With the tacit support of most of the media, which presumably is supposed to control government, not making themselves their accessory.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

When it comes to "you'll lose your job," the definition of "nazi" in "illegal to be a nazi" is as broad as the American definition used in "punch more Nazis."

[–]Gorgatron1968where are the craps2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

they passed a new law withing the last year in Germany so I don't know how this is relevant. they do have a problem with men claiming paternity for foreign women in order for the women and child to qualify for residency

http://www.dw.com/en/german-government-pushes-law-aimed-at-stopping-migrant-paternity-sale-scams/a-38309110

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

they do have a problem with men claiming paternity for foreign women in order for the women and child to qualify for residency

Haha, wtf? I don't believe for a second that this is a real problem here in Germany.

Men selling "paternity", lmao.

[–]Gorgatron1968where are the craps1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

did you follow the link?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah. But it's not a widespread problem. It's not a "thing". And I don't see any connection to the OP. It has nothing to do with normal men who want to know if they are the father of the child.

[–]InformalCriticismProbably Red2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Government meddling in people's personal lives? What could go wrong?

[–]SmeggingRightGot flair? Hell yeah![🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's wrong. Men should be able to get access to paternity testing.

[–]rulenumber3031 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think that other countries have a right to run things the way they see fit within reason, that they run things with intent to provide an overall regime for living by, and that frequently the total picture of what this means in that country is different to what the few cherry-picked facts that are supposed to appall us would seem to indicate if they were implemented in isolation from those regimes for living by.

I also think that requiring a court order is NOT the same as forbidding something totally. Many things regarding children in my own country do require a court order and maybe that's not the case for those things in other countries. For example, under 18s need a court order to marry here, and a court order is needed to change a child's name. That's how we run things here in Australia. Are things the same in France, in Botswanna, in the USA? I don't know.

I can also very much see reasons why one would want only accredited labs doing such testing... much as i can see reasons why one would want only qualified medical personnel performing abortions or prescribing certain substances. Perhaps it would also be a good idea to forbid genetic testing without counselling both before the test is done and when the results are received.

[–]ShitArchonXPRFurfag autist|Too misogynist for BP|Too socially liberal for RP0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think that other countries have a right to run things the way they see fit within reason,

Well, the stuff I object to is stuff that isn't "within reason." A shit policy is still a shit policy when you transplant it to another patch of dirt behind a different set of invisible lines. I don't want sharia in European countries, but unlike WNs I'm not able to stomach sharia in non-European countries either. Make Iran Secular Again.

that they run things with intent to provide an overall regime for living by,

Better option: interfere with citizens' lives as little as possible instead of providing a regime for living by.

and that frequently the total picture of what this means in that country is different to what the few cherry-picked facts that are supposed to appall us would seem to indicate if they were implemented in isolation from those regimes for living by.

Are you implying that the unanimous UN outrage over Rhodesia having separate voting lists instead of giving every Bantu an equal vote immediately was possibly underinformed? How racist and oppressive of you, shitlord!

[–]rulenumber3030 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Regulating paternity testing to approved and licensed providers (like let's have some effing standards and accountability here, the results of these tests cause stuff to happen) and requiring a court order (most of which would be more or less rubber stamped I'm sure... show up, answer some questions, receive a little talk from the judge about testing, get your order) is not beyond the realms of what a country should regard as its own right to set its culture and norms. Just because things are one way in your country doesn't make that the way they will be or should be in every other country.

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Their country, who curr

[–][deleted]  (6 children) | Copy Link

[deleted]

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

lol

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Imagine if you had a kid and the nurse took it away. Later they came back with a kid that looked pretty similar and they kept looking at you, looking at the chart, looking back, arguing, pointing, looking back, frowning and shrugging, etc and finally they came back and said "um this is probably your kid, like definitely more than 50/50 but anyway inquiring further is illegal so shut the fuck up and raise someone's kid".

You're totally cool with that scenario right?

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

what? are you pretending i have a problem with paternity tests?

ercole was joking

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Who knows with you. You're all over the place.

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

no im not, im RP, you got a bug up your ass about me a while back and read me weird. i dont believe in child support for never wed fathers, period

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean Atlas would probably say "if you're not married too bad". That's what she's said before about unwed mothers being dumped. (This is not a personal attack or judging, I am just repeating something that she said.)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is super off-topic, but is it possible that a woman be charged for fraud if she knows the kid isn't his, but tells him anyways?

[–]midnightvulpine[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm more interested in if their research on it holds any water. I can see both sides of it. In some cases, knowing something for sure can cause friction, even disruption. But in other cases, knowing can settle things and calm things down. It's a bit of a toss up as to which way the wind will blow.

I can understand the desire to promote peace and stability, but I don't think this is the right way to go about it.

[–]PurpleBanner0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it makes a difference to anyone in any part of the world and if anyone is upset, it just gives them something to spend their time on. Anyone upset by and willing to devote a certain amount of their time writing about paternity testing is illegal in France and Germany probably isn't going to be missed in their day job.

[–]DashneDK2King of LBFM0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I believe there is a general misconception about those rules. I don't think it's paternity test per se which are illegal. It's acquiring and using another individual's DNA. And children need both parents consent.

I think that part is fair and absolutely a good rule (I mean, about it being illegal to use another person's DNA with his consent). But a special exception should be made for paternity tests. I believe that is what either Germany or the UK has done.

[–]questioningwomandetached from society0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bad idea. I don't think dads who aren't the fathers of their children should be forced to pay for them and likewise I think paternity testing is good to make DNA fathers pay if they leave the mother unwed and stranded. It just means more injustice on both sides.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This SHOULD be the wake up call to any actual egalitarians left within 'feminism' that something is amiss. There are good, medical reasons to conduct paternity testing, and there is no reason to ban it except for ideological purposes.

[–]badnews4u0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Theyre both cucked countries anyway. Charles martel and the karlings are spinning in their graves right now.

[–]Transmigratory0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Quite stupid, if I'm being honest. Unsure about the Germans, but a certain French stereotype comes to mind. haha

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Which stereotype do you have in mind?

[–]Transmigratory0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I really hope you're joking.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nope: I actually do not know what you had in mind. What did you have in mind?

[–]Transmigratory0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Nothing about affairs pops into mind especially given the context ITT?

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That France has a high infidelity rate.

[–]GridReXXit be like that0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Weird.

[–]Lisa_NY220 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Someone made a very similar thread years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/france/comments/2sqv2i/why_is_paternity_testing_illegal_in_france/

Short answer, not every country is the U.S. Also, it's such a weird thing i.e: "Muh genetic". Dude...wtf...nobody gives a shit about your shitty genetic. You're the father, despite not being the swimmer donor. Act like it.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic-2 points-1 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I have no problem with this. Taking another adult's genetic material to a lab to be tested without their consent sounds like an invasion of privacy to me.

I have no desire to subsidize mandatory paternity testing for anybody, and if I were asked at the birth of my child to test for his or her paternity, I would outright refuse.

[–]Blaat19857 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yet men can be forced to give up his DNA for testing to proof he's the father of the child if the mother claims he is (in those countries). That's an equal invasion of privacy and creates a very unequal situation.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't have a problem with court-ordered tests. I think there should be mechanisms in place so that it is easier for a man to have a court order a test if it seems reasonable to believe that paternity is in dispute. I just don't like the idea of somebody sneaking around and sending my DNA in for testing without my permission, so I would never do this to a partner.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

That's interesting.

Can you elaborate on why it's an invasion of privacy (could just be some hair/skin cells that you left behind somewhere)?

And on why you would refuse to test for your child's paternity?

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't want anybody looking at my DNA without my permission, so I wouldn't do that with anybody else's DNA. If I doubted the paternity of my child for some reason, which isn't likely because I don't sleep with that kind of woman, it's something I'd talk about in a mature way with my partner and get her permission to do beforehand, or something I'd take to a legitimate court of law for a court official to order.

Asking for or volunteering for a paternity test is like saying you don't fully trust your partner. It's not what relationships should be built upon. I also don't believe in pre-nuptial agreements, for what it's worth, although I don't think they are as unreasonable as expecting a paternity test for any child your partner gives birth to.

[–]Battle-Scars5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Tell that to my close friend who thought just like you and didn't find out 1 of his 2 kids was not his until the kid was 15 but the court made him keep paying until the kid was 18. Turns out little miss sunshine was fucking a buddy of his during the day for about 3 years while he was hard at work to support his family. He took both those kids and raised them to be fine young men but that betrayal fucked him in the head for a long time. So, no not all women are wonderful.

[–]exit_sandmanstill not the MGTOW sandman FFS1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If I doubted the paternity of my child for some reason, which isn't likely because I don't sleep with that kind of woman, it's something I'd talk about in a mature way with my partner and get her permission to do beforehand

Sorry, that's more than naive. If your partner was the type of woman who would dupe you into accepting a child that isn't yours, she's also the type of woman who would manipulate you and gaslight you until kingdom come, and would certainly not accept your valid and logical reasons for why she should agree to a test.

[–]wtknightHardcore Romantic0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I'm saying that's the first recourse. If she's not open to that then I think there should be more options in the court system for men. What I'm saying is that I don't think people should be sneaking around stealing people's genetic material and sending it in to private labs. I'd consider it an invasion of my privacy if someone did this to me, so I wouldn't do it to a woman even if the issue was my child's paternity.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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