CMV/CHALLENGE: men who claim that constant attention paid to females by unsuitable men is an "advantage" should all go to a gay bath house or "judy garland park" tonight and put their money where their mouth is

FairlyNaive · 2017-01-27T20:17:26+00:00

When I got hit on by the gay dude, despite the absolute absense of the attraction to him, I felt better, more secure about myself and it boosted my self esteem. You may never consider any sort of romantic prospects with these men, but there other benefits to beeing desirable.

slicebypass · 2017-01-27T17:52:04+00:00

False equivalence. If it were possible for men to have women of all shapes and sizes approaching them regularly, PPD would most likely cease to exist.

EchoZeroEleven · 2017-01-27T18:27:01+00:00

I'm heterosexual but if I were gay,

I'm fairly confident I could have 1 or 2 decent prospects if I went to a gay bar with some regularity.

Yea there'd be some shit, I'd expect it. But it would be cool to do the filtering instead of being filtered. Someone would be a candidate for me.

anitapk · 2017-01-27T19:51:13+00:00

I don't agree because it's almost impossible that all options are bad and that among those there aren't suitable men. With high numbers you get more chances to find interesting guys even if it's one in a hundred.

I do agree that it's stupid to compare between men and women. The comparison I like is a man with the option to pay for a dinner date with hundreds of women - one or two might be interested in him but most will waste hisbtime. Women don't have to pay for the attention they receive, but it's the closest comparison I can imagine.

purpleppp · 2017-01-27T18:59:17+00:00

I've pretty much done just that, minus most of the male nudity. Lol

My college and post college roommate is gay, and him and I used to hit the gay bars every weekend for about two years straight while we were living in Chicago. I'm going to say that it's pretty awesome to have a bunch of people tell you how awesome you are and buy you drinks regardless of how attractive they are to you.

The only thing that I worried about was overly aggressive guys who didn't realize they were hitting on someone who was straight. I'm very good at deescalating situations and redirecting drunk people, so they were easy enough to get away from.

I've never had an issue with someone hitting on me, and I honestly don't get why women complain about it. Men and Women hit on people who they are attracted to. Take it for what it is and move on. The real issue is overly persistent people who don't get that you're not into them, but you always have the option to tell someone off and leave the area.

quicklogaccount · 2017-01-27T18:07:48+00:00

Nah. That would be an equivalence to women being hit on by lesbians, and even so, not such a fair one.
A valid equivalence would be "go to a cougar's night, like the ones from the movies". But that doesn't really exist.

disposable_pants · 2017-01-27T18:51:36+00:00

This is a "well if you want sex so bad just go get fucked in the ass by a gay man"-level shitpost.

mrcs84usn · 2017-01-27T17:52:14+00:00

That would only work if the men that did this were gay.

Unless he's Justin Timberlake famous, he's not going to have a scenario in which hundreds of unattractive women are offering themselves up to him.

There's a big difference between being hit on by gay men, and being hit on by unattractive women. Attractive men will occasionally go "dumpster diving" during a dry spell.

ppdthrowawai · 2017-01-27T19:53:03+00:00

What is the point of this exactly? The gay population where I live is big. Depending where im at, I've been approached and hit on by a lot of gays. They are a LOT more straight forward than women. Its not even comparable how much easier meeting people I'm attracted to would be if I were gay.

On the other hand, I created just about every interaction I've ever had with a woman who wasn't overweight.

[deleted] · 2017-01-28T23:31:49+00:00

I think it says a lot when women compare a man in their league or below asking them out on a date to a straight man being hit on by gay men. The average man getting even a compliment from an average woman would probably make his week/month/year.

Unless OP is a 10/10 runway model , her levels of entitlement are out of this world. Unlike a man getting hit on by gays, a woman by the time she hits 40 will be regretting being so resentful at all the attention she took for granted.

Lyanina · 2017-01-27T18:11:50+00:00

I'm not even quite sure of the logic in saying it's beneficial for women. It seems like an awful burden to have to be constantly turning men down without hurting their feelings.... Let alone trying to guess if they'll turn violent at the rejection.

wtknight · 2017-01-27T18:17:49+00:00

It's an advantage because if you are approached by 30 men then there is a decent chance that one of them is that woman's Prince Charming even if the other 29 are unsuitable. On the other hand, chances are that the best woman that any given man could find is not somebody who will approach him, but somebody that he will muster the nerve to approach himself. That is where the "advantage" lies. Asking heterosexual men to go to a place with many homosexuals is not the same because the chances that he will find his suitable match there is 0%, rather than the 1/30 chance that that woman has.

One could argue that it is more of a hassle for women to have to say no to the hordes of men hitting on them than it is for men to muster the nerve to approach man women, but a lot of men don't believe that argument.

hyperrreal · 2017-01-27T19:53:59+00:00

Atlas, we require that people posting CMVs be open to have their view changed. I'll be honest, I'm not getting that vibe from you.

Can you offer any evidence in support of your open-mindedness? If not, I will have to remove this.

Edit: also a number of top-level responses agreeing with the OP have been removed.

washington_breadstix · 2017-01-28T00:38:36+00:00

Why are you so attached to the idea that every suitor is unattractive? Sure there are bound to be a lot or even a majority of unattractive options, but the point is that women are pedestalized by men just for being women, whereas men are not pedestalized by women just for being men. More net options will almost always mean more good options, even if ''good'' options are only a small percentage of total options.

sublimemongrel · 2017-01-27T17:59:34+00:00

Not even remotely the same, not even close to equivalent or analogous.

Women getting attention from unattractive men are getting attention they should expect, from the opposite sex.

Men getting attention from gay men are getting attention they DO NOT expect, from the SAME sex.

FatTaker · 2017-01-27T18:17:32+00:00

The more options you have, the more likely you are to eventually find a suitable man to LTR. Even if you don't want most of these men, their amount is correlated with the amount of actual usable options. Complaining about having all these options is like hating that all these supermarkets want to hire you, while all you want is a job as a business analyst. The person making the complaint is not seeing the advantages of their position, just the negatives.

yayeey15 · 2017-01-27T22:28:42+00:00

This is a false analogy. The two situations are completely different.

The key difference here is that an unattractive guy for a woman can become attractive for her in the future.

My argument here is that what you consider "non-options" can actually be options, meanwhile it is not the case for the gay guy example.

sure it might be a bit inconvenient in terms of day to day life, but in terms of finding a partner it is definitely an advantage to have more options, and that pretty much always.

despisedlove2 · 2017-01-27T23:44:32+00:00

A pointless challenge if directed at straight men. Unless your message is that unattractive men are as icky as a same sex person drooling over a straight person.

trpobserver · 2017-01-28T00:26:05+00:00

Are you implying I wouldn't love getting hit on by gay guys? Because I totally would love it. I would feel pretty great. If I went to a gay club and never got hit on I would feel pretty bad.

DashneDK2 · 2017-01-28T01:59:30+00:00

Ok. But then the difference between men and women, is that whereas men are limited by outside factors, women are limited by inside factors.

AmericanHistoryAFBB · 2017-01-28T04:55:31+00:00

If anything, this post basically proves the 80/20 rule correct...women find most men unnatractive and you basically have to be killing it in all departments to be considered attractive to women

I have lots of IOIs indicators of interest) from women I find unnatractive but it still gives me an ego boost

DarkLord0chinChin · 2017-01-28T09:01:27+00:00

Different sexual orientation.

We judge attraction differently. Women are not as visual and cannot immediately decide if they would bang or not.

Different people in general. Men are not women.

Say if I went to a bar where many a landwhale wanted to fuck me and offer me stuff.. I'd be pleased nevertheless

[deleted] · 2017-01-28T10:18:37+00:00

I actually had this experience - I used to hang out with a lot of gay friends at college, and I spent some time going to a "gay church" - a left wing/progressive church under the group "metropolitan community church" which I liked because of the loving atmosphere, charity work and interesting realistic way of looking at the flaws in the bible while keeping the basic message of love.

I found a lot of men giving me compliments - "you're deep, you've got layers" kind of thing, taking an interest in me more than any male friends had before - asking me lots of questions about what I'd done in my life and what kind of opinions I had.

Just a strangely new feeling of being important, interesting and worth listening to that I'd never had before, from friends or dates. It felt good in a way, but weird. I could tell the interest was genuine but kind of deep down inspired by me being the gender they like to date.

I don't think the question is fair though. Even when you take away those non-options of unpleasant men, women still have more potential partners - choices they would date- around them. Hence why every teen novel/film like Hunger Games features a relatabe girl choosing between boys.

LetsDOOT_THIS · 2017-01-28T14:28:00+00:00

So you have all these fuckbois just trying to fuck... and then a man with priorities treating women as equals shows up. If they can show their witty incisiveness and take action to close the distance things work out juuust fine.. Thanks fuckbois!

1) Be attractive. 2) Don't be unattractive.

ThirdEyeSqueegeed · 2017-01-27T18:45:31+00:00

If you're talking about women going to nightclubs and being approached by unattractive men then it's not the same at all because women know full well that going to a nightclub will get them attention from men, so if they didn't want it they wouldn't go.

The reason straight men don't go to gay clubs is because they don't want attention from gay men. So essentially your challenge could be put to women that if they don't want attention from thirsty betas they should stop going to nightclubs and dressing provocatively.

OfSpock · 2017-01-27T19:02:46+00:00

Comparing heterosexuality to homosexuality is like comparing being an incel to being raped. You normally have more quality posts or arguments than this so I am not sure what your trying to prove here.

[deleted] · 2017-01-27T19:28:54+00:00

This argument is stupid. Acting like sexual orientation plays no role in sexual attraction.

A straight guy probably won't like being approached by a ton of gay men because he's STRAIGHT. If he was gay himself he'd love it.

AnUndecidedPill · 2017-01-27T19:15:48+00:00

Why are you even factoring in gay men into the conversation? we're here to discuss heterosexual strategy, men aren't going to take up your "challenge" because they're not gay and aren't interested in men.

This thread is shit.

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ifelsedowhile · 2017-01-27T19:14:13+00:00

I don't know if you can friendzone gay people.

hyperrreal · 2017-01-27T22:24:41+00:00

So what's the appeal process to unlock and reinstate a thread, mods? u/hyperrreal and u/leanegenova and u/dakru?

[deleted] · 2017-01-27T22:36:09+00:00

Despite this being a troll post, I can answer this.

It's quite easy to abuse someone's attraction to you for benefits.

And I guess I can also challenge your view with that. Women abuse men's attraction all the time, so sure it's an advantage.

purpleppp · 2017-01-28T01:19:36+00:00

A gay bathhouse is pretty extreme, though. A lot of (heterosexual) guys go to gay bars and don't mind the attention. I know quite a few.

wageovsin · 2017-01-28T01:52:06+00:00

For what I understand of the American gay scene, they have much higher standards then that, even at a bath house. And it's been documented. You better have muscles, be in university and very much middle class city cultured. Sophisticated a bit. dress very well. And your cock size Matters more. Incels would not get much attention unless they spent a long time grooming to the finest of details.. most attention would come from older bears.

dejour · 2017-01-28T04:32:17+00:00

Fine, having 100s of unsuitable people attracted to you isn't an advantage. (There's some mild positives and negatives, but the net effect is roughly neutral.)

I don't think that is really the common red pill assertion though.

It is an advantage to have lots of people attracted to you, even if most of them are unsuitable. Because it implies that there is a stronger chance that the people to whom you are attracted have a reciprocal attraction.

hytmen · 2017-01-28T07:52:05+00:00

I would like to post on here and express my view on something you don't seem to be understanding, but it seems you have already a ton of answers. So before I post, let me ask, do you still read answers that keep coming in after a certain point? Or do you already have enough?

throwinout · 2017-01-28T11:08:43+00:00

Getting loads of attraction is an advantage, period. You are pretending that 100% of the men who give you attraction will be unattractive, when that isn't true. The percentage of attractive men who give you attention is more than what men get, and therefore an advantage.

slothsenpai · 2017-01-28T20:13:28+00:00

I've always got an ego-boost getting hit on by gay-men, I must admit that I'm a male version of a fag-hag but I would never ever play about with them, intentionally lead them on or take advantage of them to buy me free drinks (which I'd have dozens of opportunities to do). Some women think they deserve so much free things just on the virtue of existing and simply having a vagina.

nomdplume · 2017-01-28T21:22:14+00:00

The problem I have with this is the false equivalence created by 'gay bath house' or 'judy garland park.'

Women are rarely, if ever, in the hetero version of a gay bath house or judy garland park. She would have to be visiting sex clubs or something.

A better comparison, to my mind, would be something less extreme, like maybe a gay bar or a gay pride parade. Maybe a circuit party (though those can get overtly sexual pretty fast).

-sick_sad_world- · 2017-01-28T22:33:34+00:00

Okay so, here we go. First of all, I'm a feminist so you can know where this is coming from.

I'll try to break the argument down.

in this thread i had a long and ludicrous argument with several TRPs and MRPs that the fact that women get loads of "attention" from unattractive men is some kind of "Advantage"

It is, and it isn't. It is when you're a sociopath and you want to gladly manipulate others, so you enjoy everyone being creepily fond of you. It isn't when you are just trying to live a happy functional life. Being in a workplace with men OR women trying/imagining/talking about grabbing your ass cheeks, is not good. Taking a walk and having a creepy person follow you foot step by foot step and then attempt to catcall is not. Name any situation, it's not. Especially in NON-DATING setting and context, which should be most of your day, when you're not trying to be romantically interested or attached to someone.

To be fair, the gender imbalance is very complicated, so while it undermines women from one point, it creates men who are willing to buy you lunch. The whole "a girl's gotta eat" is just another silly reference to Friends, and in no way portraits what life is really like for women. Because those same men, who for some reason ignore sexual minorities and the notion that women are people, will demand sex right after offering you a meal. I'd rather have a job and pay for my own food, thanks. Don't like it? Make a time machine and move back to the middle age.

Well, men, you too can have this "Advantage" and these "options". if you are in fairly good shape, i challenge you to go to a gay bath house tonight and drink in all the attention and size up your options.

This is not a fair portrayal of the issue. When TRP talks about these issues, it clearly means that it would prefer an alternative where females are interested in males, because sadly enough, a large portion of them believe that that is the only way the world functions. Many don't acknowledge the rights of LGBT to be taken into account.

This test is pretty invalid. Besides, a straight woman walking into a lesbian bar may get creepy looks too, and even be harassed. That would be a similar situation.

I'd rather have gender norms reversed for a day and have some of these men go through the shit women go through. You can get good insight into this by watching this amazing project.

Drakonlord · 2017-01-29T15:41:12+00:00

I've actually done something a kin to this.

Went to a gaybar with my gf and was propositioned constantly.

I found it extremely interesting and flattering. I really was interested i these men, what where they thinking when they saw me, how confident they where to just approach me. I eas straight forward in telling them I was straight.

What got me was some of the just left after i told them I was straight with a kind of "go fuck yourself" vibe. As if they viewed me as worthless dirt for their own desire. That was pretty confronting, still overall it was just interesting.

I cant change your view vecause I agree with you, it gave me a lot more empathy for women.

Ibanezguitarrocks · 2017-01-29T16:45:38+00:00

There seems to be multiple arguments concerning this topic. Among them are what exactly is being considered by women as "unattractive."

The guys arguing that they have many more options in this category are saying these men are often better than unattractive, they're at least "average."

On top of all of this men are typically the chasers so this effect is enhanced. Plenty of average men are willing to sacrifice their time/money on women even when they aren't getting sex in return.

If a man isn't sexually attracted to a woman there really isn't much else to be gained from the attention, which still isn't on par with what women are offered in number.

[deleted] · 2017-01-30T01:30:38+00:00

I always tell that to guys who say "there is no such thing as sexual harassment" and that women should be nothing but grateful for all the unwanted attention. The mistake they make is, they imagine themselves in a similar situation with an attractive girl making advances on them. They should imagine themselves in a similar situation with a gay guy making advances on them.

Entropy-7 · 2017-01-27T18:53:40+00:00

I suppose the first question is whether women set their bar too high, and so feel entitled to complain about all the low quality men that hit on them. Someone says they are starving and you offer to take them to Olive Garden but they want a T-bone from the Keg so they refuse and then continue to complain how hungry they are (I dunno: insert appropriate restaurant references).

Edit: in the end, it is a numbers game so the more people in terms of absolute numbers who are hitting on you generate more options in terms of absolute numbers. You will also get more that are not considered options (at least at that time) in terms of absolute numbers. The more cards you draw, the better odds there are to get at least one ace (or king. . . .or queen, as the case may be).

The assumption seems to be that guys only get hit on by people they find attractive, otherwise your math doesn't work.

Secondly, online dating is a different dimension. Since it is so easy to blow off guys they aren't interested in there is a lot less to complain about, and so messages from unattractive guys can feed their ego "Ya, keep dreaming buddy! [Delete]" and give them validation.

Third, I am not sure if you can compare homosexuals directly to unattractive women anymore than you could compare lesbians (even the hot ones) to unattractive men. Being gay is not really the same as simply lowering your standards: there is a whole other dimension to it.

During my first few years of living in Vancouver, I got hit on many times by gay guys. It was a bit weird at first because I never experienced that in Toronto, but it ended up being mildly flattering.

I wouldn't go to a bath house any more than I would go to an all you can eat buffet pub in search of svelte girls.

[deleted] · 2017-01-27T19:18:36+00:00

If you were a guy and you had a bunch of women after you but they were mostly too unattractive for your standards this will still create preselection and give you better chances with the hawt girls. I don't think this works in reverse. Men don't need to see other men being attracted to a hotty to know that they would enjoy some genital grinding. I didn't see your other discussion but maybe those guys were falling for the age old trap of thinking that women and men are the same so those women would be getting some kind of preselection bump?