TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

39

At least on PPD, here is what I see frequently from the reds:

  • Men sacrifice much more in a relationship

  • Men are more loyal to women

  • Men put far more effort into relationships

  • Men are less likely to cheat

  • Men are the victims, women are the perpetrators

  • Men are smarter/more logical

  • Men work harder and have more meaningful/productive jobs or careers

  • Men try everything to make a relationship work whereas women will just give it up in a heartbeat

  • Men are selfless and more generous

  • Men have more integrity and are more honest

  • Men bring value to a relationship whereas women are only burdensome

And more. Keep in mind these beliefs are made regarding the average man. Where are all these men who have all these qualities? Because it seems to me the “average” man is just as likely to have his flaws, be shitty in some aspects, and not be the pinnacle of all that’s good as a human being while the evil fem-gynocracy holds him down.

IME, men can be just as shitty as women can be. They can be manipulative, controlling, abusive, selfish, cruel, and fickle, just like women can. They can be lazy and stupid and utterly disappointing. They possess and display as many redeeming and unredeeming qualities as women do. I’m not sure if it’s solipsism (because all of you are such wonderful men) or if you truly believe mankind is just “better” than womankind in most ways discussed on PPD.

It seems like while the rest of us get accused of reinforcing WaW, TRP members are quite happy to spout “men are wonderful” as frequently as possible. (Well, some of them anyway.) These same members create demonized caricatures of women. They seem to have a near-literal good (men) vs. evil (women) mentality. And while I realize RP theory doesn’t pedestalize, that’s not my argument. My argument is that it’s members—particularly the members who come here—do. Even the ones who say things like “the average guy doesn’t have a lot going for him” or “the average guy is unattractive” are drowned out by MaW. CMV, PPD.


[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (95 children) | Copy Link

I view all of that as a reaction to feminism and the WaWE. Feminism has pushed so hard to demonize every aspect of masculinity that now groups like TRP are pushing back even if it's in a slightly absurd way.

[–][deleted]  (7 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 19 points20 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I don't get this idea that TRP's ideas are somehow "new" and not the same stereotypes that many of us (esp if religious) have always been exposed to.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

He didn't say they were new just that they were a reaction to feminism

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 13 points14 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And I'm saying they were around long before feminism

[–]trpobservereats ass 11 points12 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

traditional misogyny that has existed in most parts of the world since the bible was written.

Traditionally, most cultures have had different rules for men and women because men and women are different. And as much feminists seem to want it to be true, this did not mean that women were in a constant state of oppression in every culture at all times.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

this did not mean that women were in a constant state of oppression in every culture at all times.

I don't think "women were always oppressed!!11!" is what they were getting at. At any rate, VermiciousKnidzz was correct in their assessment. The idea that men are the sole arbiters of logic, loyalty, virtue, etc is anything but a new concept and it's disingenuous (or perhaps just ignorant) to say this is just some modern reaction to feminism.

[–]Namelessfear9 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's the re-invigoration of these ideals sought by some via the manosphere that is what is new. It is the manor in which traditional gender roles are now being advocated for, and those advocating them, that is so new.

Before they were part of the cultural norm. Now the "Old Way" is considered fringe. It was pushed there. This is the pushback.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 9 points10 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

Ok, even if that's true, reacting and then reacting to the reaction and then reacting to the reaction to the reaction all in overly exaggerated and biased ways seems counterintuitive don't you think? Is anything really justified by "you did it first"?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Not really, this is just how humans are.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 8 points9 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

So are you agreeing with my premise then?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Partially. I think some of the bullet points you list have some truth to them, some are debatable, and some are lies. But your general opinion that TRP pedestalizes men I can definitely get behind.

[–]Namelessfear9 -1 points0 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

And why the hell not? We can see what the last century has given us for the trouble of pedestalizing women. Our culture is in tatters and that has seeped elsewhere in society. No thanks.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why don't we not pedastalize anyone and just treat people for what/who they are? As people capable of having flaws just like anyone else?

[–]ah071712 points [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

Technology along with rapid economic growth is probably the culprit here, throw in Capitalism too. All 3 are heavily related with each other. In fact, I probably wouldn't have even bought up women at all if you had asked me what has bought our culture to 'tatters'.

[–]Namelessfear9 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

Then you strike me as someone who has never been put through the ringer of family court by a woman. The degree to which its stacked against men is rediculous. When a man's family can opt out of him for no reason at any time, then the men of society have nothing left to work, sweat, fight, bleed, and die for.

So you get an entire generation of men who won't move out of their folks house, apply themselves towards anything, or engage in dating at all.

The marriage contract is broken, and WOMEN broke it. After that, it was a classic domino effect.

[–]ah071710 points [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

That's because all the things men had to work fight and bleed for are being replaced by technology. When technology comes in to play, it brings in an equal playing field for both genders, especially if it's something physical being replaced.

There's an entire generation of men who do not get that and who do not get, given the changes I have said above, women will now obviously be looking for different things when looking for a mate.

The courts will always be in the woman's favour and rightly so (not including the cases where its proven the mother is extremely unfit to raise a child, yet wins, those are rare cases that happens). Take away the resources and protection a man may have provided his wife and kids in the past, everything else a woman does she does pretty much on her own when it comes to raising kids.

[–]Namelessfear9 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Wrong. We fight and bleed and die for our families first and foremost, and you can't replace that with tech.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You just described my problem with humanity! Welcome to the club! LOL

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

groups like TRP

I thought TRP was a toolbox?

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Depends on who you ask. Sometimes it's a movement or a philosophy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (23 children) | Copy Link

Yeah pretty much. Men tell each other how great men are and how terrible women are to shake a newly Redpilled man out of his WaW delusion.

The entire world talks about how wonderful women are. Men are barraged from every corner about how women are always right, women never ever do anything wrong, whatever a woman wants is good and right, and it is the job of some man somewhere to give it to her.

That's why TRP delivers this message. Shit, they need SOMEONE to build them up after everyone's spent the entire lives of these men destroying them and tearing them down.

Pinging u/sublimemongrel so she gets this.

[–]TroofTeller 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So you're admitting TRP is about feelings and not truth.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Quote where I said anything about feelings in that comment.

[–]TroofTeller 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You stated in plain English that TRP delivers the idiotic "man good, woman bad" message because these men need to be " built up". That's feels over facts 101

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (19 children) | Copy Link

My OP isn't about the "entire world" it's about terpers on PPD.

Shit, they need SOMEONE to build them up after everyone's spent the entire lives of these men destroying them and tearing them down.

TRP was never meant to be some hugbox for oppressed men who have been shit on their entire lives. It's supposed to be representative of the truth about gender dynamics. And the truth isn't that the average man is all of these wonderful, virtuous things while women are all of these shitty, awful things.

What's much more likely to be close to the truth is that there are plenty of bad apples on both sides, flaws which can be generalized as applying more to one gender than the other (on both sides), there's no clear gender "winner" when it comes to good versus bad, and most people are probably decent human beings trying their best not to be shitty to other people.

I always see the intent of TRP twisted whenever the topic of truth is addressed. Or maybe it's not twisted and I misunderstood the purpose. Is the purpose to show the "hard truth" or is it to "wake men up" but using hyperbole/exaggeration (which by definition isn't the absolute truth)?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

TRP was never meant to be some hugbox for oppressed men who have been shit on their entire lives.

It isn't. TRP tells men how shitty women can be and how good they can be because it's the truth.

It's supposed to be representative of the truth about gender dynamics.

It is. And the truth is that women can be shitty and men can be good. There is no such thing as this "Men are Wonderful" effect you've made up in your head.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

There is no such thing as this "Men are Wonderful" effect you've made up in your head.

Tell that to your buddies who go around voicing how wonderfully wonderful the average man is in comparison to the average women. If defaulting that women are naturally virtuous, noble and "good" = WaW, why would defaulting that men are naturally virtuous, noble and "good" NOT = MaW? I didn't "make this up in my head" -- I observed it by reading PPD for a long period of time and there's a shit ton of people agreeing with me so I'm not the only one. Get outta here with your "making it up in your head" nonsense.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

please cite to comments where Red men have said "average men are wonderful" or similar themes.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Just scroll through this own thread where the bullet points are repeated. If you honestly don't see these things being touted on here quite frequently I don't know how you can say you've been reading r/PPD. You literally say shit like this yourself.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Please cite to comments where I personally have said "average men are wonderful" or similar themes.

Average men are not wonderful. They're average. They're by and large unattractive, suffer from the effects of repeated sexual and relational failure, don't know how to forge and sustain relationships, use covert contracts, and don't live up to their potentials. They aren't, because they've been beaten down all their lives and because the problem is them.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Actually, you tend to just talk about how shitty women are, moreso than how great the average man is. I will give you that. It's not so much you, although you do perpetuate the men as victims a lot.

[–]dissentforall 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

The main reason for that is generally hyperbolic but considering the general trends found in first world society, women really aren't held to responsibilities for their behavior at all. Cheating, property destruction, lying in courts, feigning innocence and convoluting all aspects of break ups, sleeping around and hiding tracks from public knowledge, virtue signalling galore etc...the list goes on. They really are not accountable like they once were. that's why the women of today are so drastically different from our grandparents generation. Excess freedoms and absence of responsibility will turn any human that way over time.

A lot of what TRP is don't be a victim to womens nonsense or your own laziness and self pity. Go out and make something of yourself and get the type of women that come with that self improvement. Everything else is just noise and nuance.

[–][deleted]  (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

Wtf are you even arguing here?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh, you're confused now?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, because you just say thing that don't make sense to me. I don't even understand what you're being critical of here. The most I have been able to get from your comments is that you really really don't like my OP for some reason that almost seems to be bordering on personal.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

facepalm

This is why I just don't say anything. I feel like I can't make myself any clearer.

[–][deleted]  (5 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Jesus christ man you're taking this shit too seriously. My OP is about an observation I've made from arguing and reading PPD for a lengthy about of time. It's not meant to be pulitzer prize winning material or to propose some scientific breakthrough hypothesis. Try not to get so invested.

This is precisely why lawyers need a backround in a subject other than law to be useful in any way whatsoever.

Oh please. Nobody can even understand half the shit you say on here. Cryptic messages and quotes. But I'm the stupid, useless one.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Guess I'm cryptic & make no sense then. Carry on.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

To me, i can't figure out what you're saying a lot of the time. I'm ESTJ, I prefer direct and unambiguous. Maybe that's why.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That could be possible. I'm an INTJ or atleast many would say.

[–][deleted]  (34 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Because someone decided to gild them. Why aren't your posts guided?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (20 children) | Copy Link

  • You realise that trying to burn someone everytime they make a statement doesn't sound particularly insightful. It oft sounds confused.

Just saying, /u/Rollo-Tommassi posts aren't Gilded but someone who's hamfistedly insisting that there's direct cultural equivalence to everything we discuss is somehow that insightful? It's like the Nobel prize of literature being...awarded..to Bob...Dylan.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Where's your gold?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Not interested thanks. Though I do have a screenshot from a poorfag that messaged me saying he would've gilded me if he had the money.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

But I don't see it

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Where's my gold? :(

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'll gilde you. Your posts are awesome.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Oh please don't give reddit any money. They are run by nutcases.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

/shrugs

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Tell me what you hated about my post, specifically? What is completely unoriginal to you, what is poorly written, what isn't up to snuff?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

There's nothing to argue, it's basically an ad hominem laundry list. Literally.

-Nuh Uh. No you!

clap clap clap clap

-courtesy of the peanut gallery.

What's to argue?

"He lied to us man" & Then America applauds you know America loves to applaud bullshit. "He lied to us man" OF COURSE THEY LIED TO YOU FOOL THEYRE DRUG PUSHERS.

Bill Maher -"be more cynical"

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What? How is this an ad hominem laundry list? where are there personal attacks? What is so personally offensive to you here?

Are you honestly going to say you don't see red pillers do this on a regular basis on PPD? I am so confused why my OP's concept has you so riled up!

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

sighs like squidward

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

How old are you?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I've read complex statistics about this stuff. Cultural sociological examinations. & the gilded post is the mediocre post that basically justify's everything with a "neutral equivalency". Lazy. Unoriginal.

Don't even flatter yourself thinking you're owed an explanation. It's not even worth the time to pick apart.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I've read complex statics about this stuff.

I'm not sure what response you want from me here. Good for you, I'm glad.

the gilded post is the mediocre post that basically justify's everything with a "neutral equivalency". Lazy. Unoriginal.

Explain what is lazy and unoriginal. I spend a lot of time here. I observe. This was an observation I thought postworthy.

Don't even flatter yourself thinking you're owed an explanation. It's not even worth the time to pick apart.

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get across here. Are you worried that I'm worried about you not liking my post?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

No. It's just me communicating that it doesn't interest me. You don't have to worry about anything.

"I don't really care what people think about me, I prefer to ask the question, do they know what I think of them?" - Christopher Hitchens

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Well you can explain why you made the accusations you did, at least. I'm not interested in weird quotes that are special to you. What is lazy and unoriginal?

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Why's this post gilded?

LOL, u mad? I think I have some reddit bronze laying around here I could lend you..

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 3 points4 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

People aren't always mad just because they point things out. Sounds more like you're getting defensive at the question.

Pretty sure everyone here knows what angry from me sounds like around here.

I just find this mildly humorous & somewhat ridiculous.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Sounds more like you're getting defensive at the question.

Uh, just like people aren't always mad, people aren't always defensive. I mean you do know that "u mad" is a meme right?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 4 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Yea, it's a satirical reply to someone when you think they're reacting poorly.

Here's the thing: I wasn't, you assumed it. Leaving you plausible deniability for avoiding that you're directly responding to my perceived criticism even though it was merely an observation you unintentionally revealed your dislike of my POV.

STRIKE III YOU'RE OUT

  • Failure.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Here's the thing: I wasn't, you assumed it.

Actually I was just criticizing you on even whining about a post being gilded to begin with. I didn't assume anything about your emotional state, it's not that deep dude. But given how hard you're trying to prove me wrong it's clear I touched a nerve, lol. Have a nice day!

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

trying to prove me wrong

Whenever anyone says that I feel like the discussion has moved towards someone illiterate enough to avoid reading my flair.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Mm, so salty. I can't see your flair in my inbox so I'll just say "um, ok..." and be done with this conversation.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, it's the Ego deflation. Not personally salty or mad.

Sounds like a sinking hot-air balloon. Distantly in the sky audible from my window.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]questioningwomandetached from society 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

and I'm the reactionary to the reaction. What does that make you think? I don't wait to react I react then and there.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

and I'm the reactionary to the reaction. What does that make you think? I don't wait to react I react then and there.

So your just acting like everyone else then?

[–]questioningwomandetached from society -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Not really. Mine is motivated out of self protection. Self protection and survivalism are my biggest virtues now.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Isn't that everybody's basic instinct?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wants to feel unique.

[–]the_calibre_cat 14 points15 points  (198 children) | Copy Link

This isn't an untrue observation. TRP makes some claims that fly in the face of facts, and while I'm sympathetic to the notion that media + academia is more than happy to tailor their work to suit a particular narrative, that only gets you so far.

You can't really be like, "it's not wrong for men to be attracted to sexy women, and make sexual passes for them" and then be like "but the data that shows men cheating more than women is wrong." No, I think it's probably perfectly reasonable (/sexist) to assume men cheat more - for the most part our sex drives run at ludicrous speed 90% of the time.

Seems reasonable, but that portrays men negatively, which TRP doesn't like. I can understand this, as there is absolutely no shortage of man-hate in the media (man-hate is to iron as woman-hate is to gold), and TRP is partly a reaction to that face of the leftist socio-cultural zeitgeist. Feminism is absolutely guilty of doing the same with women, without the corresponding deluge of articles telling them how shit they are.

But it's stupid, and one of the things TRP supposedly prides itself on is "real talk" and "taking responsibility." I don't think ignoring certain likely stats reflects positively in those areas.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 7 points8 points  (156 children) | Copy Link

No, I think it's probably perfectly reasonable (/sexist) to assume men cheat more - for the most part our sex drives run at ludicrous speed 90% of the time.

Seems like flawed logic. Men also have to try considerably harder to cheat.

Most people don't make a conscious choice to cheat. They avoid making any decision until crunch time, when they're actually in someone's hotel room and Mr./Mrs. Mystery starts kissing them. They're way more likely to do it at that point.

Men might want to cheat more but it's quite likely the majority will never have an opportunity. Women have the opportunity almost constantly. They only need to give in once.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 11 points12 points  (39 children) | Copy Link

Seems like flawed logic. Men also have to try considerably harder to cheat.

Men may have to try harder to get extramarrital sex (in some instances) but the things that (generally) lead either sex to seek out affairs are often wildly different and IME, for women it's much harder and takes a lot more to make the decision to stray than men. Even TRP admits that if/when a woman cheats, the relationship is essentially over and she's looking to branch swing whereas men will cheat just because they like variety but still wish to remain with their current partners.

but it's quite likely the majority will never have an opportunity.

This is where you're wrong. Men will routinely 'cheat down' (as in, cheat with less attractive/homely women) for the sheer pleasure of new pussy. To be perfectly honest, affair sex isn't really that hard to come by. Be it with hookers and strippers or searching online forums for married affair partners (which is extremely common). A man with an itch can fairly easily find a warm hole to stick his dick in. There are an abundance of "post-wall" women (many of whom are reasonably attractive) willing to play OW for married men, be it ego, loneliness or just horniness.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

for women it's much harder and takes a lot more to make the decision to stray than men

Could you explain this in more detail?

I don't know whether men or women cheat more. It probably is men. I'm just pointing out that OP's logic is flawed.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Women don't cheat opportunistically. Men are much more likely to do that.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

That's the only response you could have given which was less detailed...

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women need a reason to cheat (not saying that reason is caused by the man). If they don't have a reason it doesn't matter how many opportunities come their way, they won't cheat.

Men on the other hand, don't need a reason. Any opportunity that comes their way and they are much more likely to take it rather than a happy woman in a LTR (ofc not all men).

Edit: I cannot believe I used the wrong spelling of "their" twice here.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The reason can be attractive guy with good game is hitting on me.

Men are the ones who need a reason to cheat. Like their wife isn't putting out or giving good BJs, or she got fat, or maybe she went and got all wrinkled up. It's not like men don't cheat for no reason either.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Sure, YMMV. There are women who will cheat on a whim and men who are miserable and cheat due to misery. But, in general, men are more likely to cheat for strange/opportunity, i.e., no reason at all, whereas women are more likely to cheat when they are out the door or for revenge. These are generalizations -- you know, the kinds your camp likes to make so frequently.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good generalizations

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I explained a bit more in my reply to cxj.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good reply. Thanks. :)

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

or women it's much harder and takes a lot more to make the decision to stray than men.

Great point. Women specifically don't cheat opportunistically, the way men do. Hence women having a greater opportunity is irrelevant.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas 0 points1 point  (21 children) | Copy Link

Would love an OP or elaboration on how it's harder for women to make the choice to cheat

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 5 points6 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I won't make an OP about it but I'll gladly elaborate.

First of all, given what we already know about men and their precious biological need for variety, how differently men and women generally view sex and how much it takes (on average) to induce a woman to have sex to begin with, that alone should be enough to illustrate what I'm talking about.

For many women, a lot of things have to fall into place (or rather, go awry) to even get her to start thinking about cheating. Men can easily have their heads turned by someone "younger and tighter" or nice pair of tits, meanwhile women don't generally operate like that. Women, by and large, don't just see a dick imprint at the office and start getting an insatiable urge to fuck some dude.

A lot of women (and men) view cheating as a clear sign of the death of a relationship when a woman does it. Things generally have to already been pretty bad. With women, infidelity is rarely (ime) done out of a pure desire for strange. When women cheat, it's often a whole new relationship she's after, not just "variety". However men (and many will attest to this) just want something new from time to time. You won't find many women seeking out escorts or strippers for a piece of ass or a bit of oral on the side just because; and you certainly won't see many saying that casual sex with side partners is a need.

It's far less likely a woman is going to throw (or give) away a fuck with some stripper at a party just because she could. Few women experience constant "temptation" in the way that men do. We already spend most of our lives rejecting dick left and right for various reasons. Easy access to it means nothing. Cheating for a lot of women feels like it's an either/or situation rather than "oh I can just have both because muh neeeeeds".

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

This is a great explanation for why women's infidelity is so much worse than men's but it's not an argument for anything being "harder" for women.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

For real. I'm not even in the camp that says a woman cheating is worse (because in my mind cheating is horrible no matter who did it) and I have to say, all this did was reinforce the idea that a woman cheating IS WORSE for the success of a LTR/Marriage than a man cheating. Seems glaringly obvious.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

all this did was reinforce the idea that a woman cheating IS WORSE for the success of a LTR/Marriage than a man cheating. Seems glaringly obvious.

Whether its worse or not doesn't factor into the discussion at all. Who cares if its worse? That doesn't change the fact that it's still harder to make that choice. And not that I agree that it is worse, but lets pretend. Wouldn't that be yet another reason why it's more difficult for women to choose to cheat?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wouldn't that be yet another reason why it's more difficult for women to to choose to cheat?

I suspect that in most cases it would mean the "process" a woman follows that leads to cheating is longer, sure. But the actual choice to cheat is as simple as "fuck this loser! I'm done trying" and off she goes.

But I said in my original reply that to me personally, it makes no difference. A cheater is a cheater and the reasons aren't really all that relevant to me. I just found that an interesting thought mostly.

[–]EliteSpartanRangerNice Guys Don't Ask For Rewards 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think that's what she's saying.

What she said is basically women cheat when their relationship is practically over in every way except on paper whereas men are willing to risk a happy relationship for strange.

I think cheating is horrible no matter who does it too, but from what she said (which I don't necessarily agree with) she definitely seems to paint male cheating as worse.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

a woman cheating IS WORSE for the success of a LTR/Marriage than a man cheating. Seems glaringly obvious.

Nah. Because when the woman catches the man cheating, she might leave him/divorce him/stay and never forgive him/if she forgives him he might keep right on cheating and you can't call that a successful marriage - let alone the effect on the kids.

Fantasise all you like though.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's worse because as long as a cheating husband doesn't get caught, the marriage can hum right along. If the woman is cheating, the marriage is already over.

Harsh but true. Cheating still sucks either way.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

It's worse because as long as a cheating husband doesn't get caught, the marriage can hum right along. If the woman is cheating, the marriage is already over.

Lots of men have already checked out of the marriage by the time they start cheating. Lot of women cheat for attention, even though she still loves her husband.

I don't necessarily agree that women only cheat when the marriage is over. Because some women are attention-freaks and will seek it any way they can get it.

And if a man's cheating, he's worthless as a husband. So you can say that the marriage is humming right along and I'll call it a sham marriage.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

but it's not an argument for anything being "harder" for women.

Why not?

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hm.

[–]wub1234 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

A noble effort, but have you ever heard the expression, "it's like talking to a brick wall"?

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but u/cxj is a rational human being who listens to me...sometimes.

[–]wub1234 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure that's true.

However, it shouldn't need to be explained in the first place, and certainly not in a group of people who debate these issues all the time. I can somewhat understand an average member of society not understanding this (although, still, for an adult not to understand the biological imperative for men to sleep around and the basic differences between male and female sexuality is pretty ignorant). But for people on here not to understand this...the mind boggles.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

However, it shouldn't need to be explained in the first place, and certainly not in a group of people who debate these issues all the time.

I mean, I'm not gonna knock someone for politely asking me to expound on my POV further but I see what you're saying. Still, sometimes even what seems (or SHOULD BE) obvious to certain people isn't so apparent to others until its explained in detail. It's happened to me before too. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[–]wub1234 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, none of us are infallible, I just find this oversight slightly bizarre.

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks, great explanation. This put together pieces of the puzzle I was already aware of.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

We already spend most of our lives rejecting dick left and right for various reasons.

It's good to finally see this come from the mouth/fingertips of a woman. I've been screaming this from the mountaintops for years now. It's an absolute truth.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What? A dozen women here say this 10 times a day.

[–]questioningwomandetached from society -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

what if a woman has an extremely high sex drive though? to the point of being a nymphomaniac?

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

what if a woman has an extremely high sex drive though?

If a woman has a high sex drive and is in a relationship, she's generally going to try to satiate her desires with her partner first and foremost with perhaps even a lot of masturbation in between.

to the point of being a nymphomaniac?

Nymphomania is rare, so rare that it doesn't even warrant discussion.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

But you're making excuses for the man who does it because of his high sex drive.

How am I "making excuses" for anyone??

What makes the woman with the high sex drive so different if she doesn't decide to leave the guy?

I already addressed the fact that men crave variety (not just SEX) more than women do. A woman with a "high sex drive" is far more likely to find herself with a partner whose flesh is willing more often than not.

If you condemn one, condemn the other.

Lolut.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

First of all you're making excuses to the guy who cheats by talking about the variety factor

HOW!?

What if she craves variety?

.....then she cheats (OR doesn't get into a relationship to begin with), what the fuck?

Because you are assigning one type of sexuality to every woman and thus making a double standard for everyone

Again, HOW? Please point out where I ever said anything about every woman?

Why are you talking to me about so-called nymphomaniac women when they're rare (like I already said) to begin with? I'm not here to discuss outliers and anomalies.

[–]the_calibre_cat 3 points4 points  (98 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it's accurate to say women have more of an opportunity to do this than women do.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 4 points5 points  (97 children) | Copy Link

I assume you mean "than men." I mean, I don't want to be rude but that's a seriously delusional belief to hold. Not sure how I can really respond to it.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 5 points6 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

If a man can get an attractive woman to date or especially marry him, isn't that the ultimate pre-selection? And if men in their thirties are more attractive than women in their thirties, won't he have much more opportunity to cheat for larger portion of their marriage?

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Who said she was attractive? We're talking across all men in all relationships.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 4 points5 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Why would he marry someone he didn't find attractive

[–]cxj75% Redpill Core Ideas 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Cuz that's what there is

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your point was that other women found her attractive.

Not to be rude but you made this distinction. Are you sure you have your position straight?

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Men here say all the time that they are extremely picky when it comes to marriage. Supposedly marriage is the ultimate status symbol bestowed upon a woman, presumably the most attractive women. If she is unattractive then cheating won't come easily to her either. So in ugly couples, I guess neither can cheat.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Have you ever been to a trailer park?

[–]the_calibre_cat 5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I'm sorry, women work, women stay at home, women in relationships are often policed by their mate in one form or another - so I don't really see how they have "more" opportunities except from men who have given up and are simply living in the routine with no passion for his woman.

In all honesty I'd think women have less opportunity to cheat.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I think you have a strange perception of the dynamics of most marriages...

[–]the_calibre_cat 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The men who don't are almost certainly the ones who get cheated on and will never know. I firmly believe women can keep secrets far better than men can.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Huh? Your position doesn't seem coherant.

I think you've already come to a conclusion and you're looking to justify it. These aren't very good justifications though, they aren't even internally consistent.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think he means: betas who don't hold frame and dread game her shit tests are more likely to be cheated on.

I read the sidebar 😉

[–]the_calibre_cat 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

How are they not?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women have more opportunity because they don't have to do the initial approach. And most men stop approaching once they get married. Women can't stop being a passive approach object.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (78 children) | Copy Link

Most men can get laid. Period. If he wants to cheat he will create an opportunity for himself.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 5 points6 points  (77 children) | Copy Link

They really can't. Stating it firmly doesn't make it true...

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (76 children) | Copy Link

They really can. I was just thinking the other day, about a third of the married men I know are likely cheating or actively trying to. Look I have a good mindset into this hear because I go to a lot of professional conventions. If men have access to those, a shit ton of them cheat, a lot of them try to cheat with married women (trust me, as a married woman who attends these things, I know).

And even then, let's say they physically can't but they still want to or would if some rando offered -- that's still pretty bad don't you think?

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 3 points4 points  (51 children) | Copy Link

I had a sexually non-exclusive marriage. I was not a bad looking guy, in better shape than most (at least in my age bracket). I travelled a lot for work.

I could have had sex free and gratis if I wanted. I wouldn't have had to even deal with the question of cheating.

I. Never. Had. An. Opportunity. Not one. Not even with a fug.

You mentioned that men try to cheat. I agree, they do. A lot. I saw it all the time.

You know what I never saw happen, though? Them actually being successful.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (22 children) | Copy Link

Well I do. But even if I didn't, is that really so great either?

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Men trying to get laid doesn't impress me one way or the other as I see it all the time. Mostly, they fail. That's why they call it 'getting lucky.'

Most of the time, it's like dogs chasing cars...

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

I don't really believe you. Can you provide a few examples of your male acquaintances cheating successfully? Are they average men?

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants 2 points3 points  (27 children) | Copy Link

How do men get laid at all if it's as impossible as you lot claim? How do so many of them cheat?

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 2 points3 points  (24 children) | Copy Link

It's not impossible. It just takes a lot of trying and failing (mostly failing), and can involve long periods of failing.

There is a reason it is called 'getting lucky.' Even when you are married, turns out.

I actually don't know of many (any?) married guys who have cheated. At least no men I know personally. Not sure how and when married guys cheat...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

u/nomdplume set out for you pretty much the typical sexual experience of most men.

Most men get some sex, sometimes. The sex lives of most men involve a fling here and there, maybe one or two ONSs lifetime, some girlfriends, a wife (or at least one ex-wife), interspersed with long, LOOOONG dry spells lasting months or years. Their marriages have "meh" sex lives, mostly because of her lack of sexual attraction, and her anger and resentment at having to settle for a lesser man than she believed she deserved.

Women view the above as "yeah, but he's getting sex!! What's the problem!!"

The point is that "getting sex" is not "getting good sex" or "getting quality sex" or "getting enthusiastic sex" or "getting frequent sex".

I know of a few married men who have cheated. Most haven't. Because they CAN'T. They're barely attractive enough to keep their own marriages, much less attract another woman for NSA sex.

Women's views on men's cheating and how sexually available women are to most men are just ridiculous and not based in any reality at all.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

At least in the post I made I listed out both the male and female cheaters I know in marriage.

Besides wtf are you doing hanging out with such horrible people? You know why I don't have any guy friends who rampantly cheat on their wives? Because those guys are untrustworthy pieces of shit that I want nothing to do with. Why are you hanging out with untrustworthy pieces of shit?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 3 points4 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I network, I don't always realize they are "untrustworthy pieces of shit" until they hit on me. Generally I will then avoid ever being alone with them, but my career involves a lot of networking, I can't just write them off completely. Most of the time I'm with medium-large groups of people, not hanging out with these people one-on-one.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good idea

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

The key point being you reject them...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I was just thinking the other day, about a third of the married men I know are likely cheating or actively trying to.

So you were thinking, that you thought that 1/3rd of men you know -probably- in your opinion are cheating or trying to.

And thats your proof?

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

No study on this ever finds less than 1/4 of married men cheating.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

You can't make a claim like this without citing one of those studies.

Many married men have cheated. That doesn't mean they are currently cheating. Ongoing affairs are much rarer than a passionate romp at a conference.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, yeah. That and the fact that the studies usually show between 20-25%, why wouldn't I trust my own eyes? I can admit that maybe my sample set is skewed but not so much that it's just false. What I tend to see is that if men want to cheat, they generally can (and do).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

No, they really can't. Most men have to work hard, very hard, just to get ONE woman willing to fuck them.

You're drawing your experience from married badass lawyers. But you can't extrapolate from married lawyers to married men. Most men are not lawyers. MOst men are not badass attractive lawyers from major metros.

Stop. Just. Please, stop with this ridiculous argument.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I'm guessing if we polled the women in here, most of us who have dated for any length of time have had a man cheat on us. I have, and I never dated Chads. That's telling. My observations point to men being able to cheat, one way or another, if they want to. Most of the lawyers I know are old ass men trying to fuck 25-35 year olds, they aren't physically attractive, lol.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Please. I doubt you have ever dated an "average" man in your life.

EDIT: Most married Blue women in here rode the carousel in their 20s, then (claim they) parachuted into superawesome marriages with superawesome rich wealthy educated top 20% men on the coasts and major metros. Married Blue women in this sub have no experience with "average" men, dating or otherwise. Married Blue women have never actually talked to an "average" man about his sex or dating life, and have never even so much as noticed the existence of average men in real life. Married Blue women don't know ANYTHING about the lives of "average" men, because they've never seen or talked to them, and certainly never dated or fucked them. END EDIT

Of COURSE above average men cheat. Because they can.

Most men cannot cheat. that's based on my observation. Shit. The average man of today can barely get anything at all. He can barely get his own wife to fuck him. If he's single, he can barely get any attention from women at all.

I have absolutely no idea where you're coming from with these claims.

Most of the lawyers I know are old ass men trying to fuck 25-35 year olds, they aren't physically attractive, lol.

yet according to you, they're all successfully cheating on their wives left and right. I think some of them are cheating, IF they are physically attractive, and IF they are well above average in resources, and IF they have the mindset for it. Most men don't. Most married lawyers don't.

You live in a world that might as well be Neptune. I have no fucking idea what you're even talking about with this "every man can cheat" claim.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men might want to cheat more but it's quite likely the majority will never have an opportunity.

Well this again goes against the idea that "men are wonderful." It's acknowledging that they would cheat if they could, meaning they have less than pure intentions.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know. That's not what I was taking issue with.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

She made a decision to cheat looooong before she got to the hotel.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Do you have much experience seducing women? Women in relationships generally need plausible deniability before they'll do anything. They don't make the decision to cheat until they are actually cheating.

I understand that it's simpler to say that she makes the decision as soon as she goes back with him, but that isn't how it works. Up until you kiss her, the decision she's making is "This feels good. Is it cheating? Well, I'm not actually doing anything with him so no."

She will genuinely believe she isn't cheating (because, strictly, she isn't) until you're making out, and by that point she's so full of sex chemicals she can't help herself.

If you try and proceed as though she's already decided to cheat as she walks into the hotel bar with you, you'll generally fail.

[–][deleted]  (12 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

No, it's a cliche, and the fact you bleat it means you don't understand the context. Don't get aggressive when people question your experience. It's a surefire way to stay ignorant.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

A cliche is a figure of speech.

Don't get condescending when you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Oh, and my issue wasn't with you questioning my experience, neither does it have to do with your argument, it was the fact that you failed to understand a simple figure of speech, and now you're trying to claim that you understood what it meant, when your previous post shows the exact opposite.

And to the original point, which you're wrong about as well. Women are not stupid, they might convince themselves that they had no intention of cheating but when they go out to bars, or to hotels, or whatever with men that they find attractive (and know that they find attractive) they're doing it because they're bored with their partner. No, they didn't go out with the intention of cheating (which is what you thought I said because you misunderstood the very simple figure of speech), but they never stop themselves from getting into situations where cheating is very likely, and that is a decision in and of itself.

Please don't get pissy because you're just not very smart.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

You're assuming that decisions are clean. We don't make decisions in a clean way. You can apply boundaries but that's your own construction. Psychology is messy.

You seem aggressive, so let me put the ball in your court. If women make the decision to cheat well before they are in the bedroom with you, why does making it overt (or implying she's made that decision at all) before that point cause her to leave?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (8 children) | Copy Link

You're assuming that decisions are clean.

No I'm not.

If women make the decision to cheat well before they are in the bedroom with you, why does making it overt (or implying she's made that decision at all) before that point cause her to leave?

Because they want to believe that it happened more spontaneously than it did.

You just aren't getting it. She decides to go out, and she makes herself a little more likely to cheat, then she decides to let a random guy flirt with her, and she flirts back, making herself more likely to cheat, and then the guy invites her back to his hotel room after the bar closes, putting herself in a very likely position to cheat. She made all of those decisions, knowing in the back of her mind that this makes her more likely to cheat. She likes to think that she won't, and so these decisions aren't creating a situation that's going to make her cheat, she's just having fun, right?

See, I don't know about your own experience with women, but you don't just launch into sex, it builds up gradually. She allowed sexual tension to build up because subconsciously she knew that she wanted to have sex with someone that isn't her current partner.

Integral to her sense of identity is her not viewing herself as a cheater or a slut, and that's why 'it just happened', but don't take it at face value, look a little deeper.

[–]TW_CountryMusicbluepill redneck 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You're 100% right.

A woman (or man) who has no intention to cheat and who isn't a complete naive idiot will recognize a risky situation long before it reaches the point of no return and remove themselves from said situation as quickly as possible. "One thing led to another" and "It just happened" are excuses; they know good and well they allowed themselves to be in a situation that allowed it to "just happen" and they didn't do anything to stop it.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Because they want to believe that it happened more spontaneously than it did.

So why doesn't this happen to the same degree when women aren't in a relationship?

Provided you have the ability to be funny, calling out a girl for trying to sleep with you is usually actively helpful.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There are solid arguments we make about why the data in regards to male and female cheating. Arguments that all the people around here "argue" against while remaining blissfully unaware of the actual argument.

[–]the_calibre_cat 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Feel free to make those arguments, man, but I'm generally not persuaded by them. I think TRP is spot-on in some areas, but like any movement, insulation from criticism results in absurdity.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The thing is I've been doing this for four years. And I used to be far more active. If I lay out a good argument maybe one person will actually read it and think about it, maybe maybe, but not likely. I forget the term but for those who disagree with my argument they are more likely to simply cling harder to what they already believe.

A solid argument changes no minds, makes basically no difference in society, but it does take a chunk of my time. Things will progress in society regardless of the arguments we make because reality is still happening. Marriage rates continue to fall no matter how often anyone claims that men aren't avoiding marriage. Beta workers continue to work less and less hard, while forced transfer payments (welfare) continue to rise, no matter how often anyone argues that this isn't happening. More and more children are raised in broken homes, and suffer because of it, no matter what claims are made.

All PPD really is is a giant circle jerk where we all kill some time and hopefully have a little bit of fun!

Enjoy your day!

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for your perspective. I agree -- if this is about what is "true" then the negatives should be acknowledged.

[–]basebool 0 points1 point  (36 children) | Copy Link

Where do you get off saying men cheat more just because we have higher labido naturally?

This artical can say otherwise: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1211104/Think-men-unfaithful-sex-A-study-shows-WOMEN-biggest-cheats--theyre-just-better-lying-it.html

[–]JaggedYellowPillyellow is the opposite of purple 6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Your own article says men cheat more than women.

recent studies say the figure is around 20 per cent for men and a bit over 15 per cent for women

[–]basebool -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

If you read more into it rather than one line, it demonstrates why its only 15%. Because women can lie about it for so long. That itself implies that while only 15% is the ballpark for confirmed cheaters in women, there is no doubt more cheating going on.

Men are much more oblivious and usually wont be able to hide it for too long without the woman finding out.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 7 points8 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

EDITOR: "I think women cheat more than men. Do a study to confirm this."

AUTHOR: "Our study says men cheat more."

EDITOR: "Well women lie, so they probably cheat more anyway."

[–]basebool -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I never said it is a proven fact men cheat more, I said given the numbers are close and the article points out the fact that women can lie and keep cheating a secret a hell of a lot better than men so I and many others could conclude the number for cheating women is higher than thought, never said exactly higher than men.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sorry, that was intended to represent a hypothetical conversation in the newsroom at the Daily Mail.

[–]JaggedYellowPillyellow is the opposite of purple 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've known men who were able to lie about it for years, decades even. So while 20% is the ballpark for confirmed cheaters in men, there is no doubt more cheating going on.

[–]monkeysinmypocket 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because they're not as clever...

[–]the_calibre_cat 6 points7 points  (21 children) | Copy Link

Where do you get off saying men cheat more just because we have higher labido naturally?

Probability, mostly. Also, men admit to wanting more sexual partners than women in surveys, and it stands to reason that - all else being equal - the creature with the higher sexual libido is likelier to cheat than the creature with the lower libido.

Seriously, men don't have to be (and aren't) the 100% super ultra bestest at everything...

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why so negative? If we cheat more, we are the bestest at cheating

[–]the_calibre_cat 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's the spirit!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Most men don't cheat, because they can't. They're not attractive enough to cheat.

[–]the_calibre_cat 5 points6 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

They only need to be attractive enough to fuck, the prevalence of the cheating fantasy among women assure that some of them will fulfill the mysterious lover role.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

They only need to be attractive enough to fuck

That's only about 20% of men.

And most of those men in relationships either do cheat, or have many opportunities to do so.

[–]the_calibre_cat 7 points8 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

They only need to be attractive enough to fuck

That's only about 20% of men.

That's bullshit.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

You think an average schmo is attractive enough to attract a woman to cheat with?

THAT'S bullshit.

[–]the_calibre_cat 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's not even remotely outside the level of possibility, which means it's almost certainly already happened, which means it's even likelier among sexier men.

[–]give_me_shinieshere for the bants 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You must be new around here, you're never going to be able to convince them that most men aren't incels.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're correct about this and average men have the opportunity to cheat, then the marital infidelity rate for men is actually around 75%.

Because most men will cheat if given the opportunity.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Does it not count as cheating if you bought it? Cause any married man can pay a prostitute.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I know plenty of married men who do (vegas conventions).

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Any single man or even incel can, too. Funny enough, most of them don't want to, either.

Most men don't see prostitutes as 'opportunities'...

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

See my relevant response above.

[–]the_calibre_cat 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That shocks me, man. I've been in situations where I was tested and passed... And then I've been in situations where I was tested, and failed. I've definitely sexed up ladies who were enthusiastic as fuck about it, who I should not have been fucking.

It was awesome, except for the "boy I feel pretty bad about that."

[–]basebool -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah probability is not how people determine stuff like this.

[–]the_calibre_cat 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't need to be how people determine stuff like this. It's how we analyze it, independently and rationally.

[–]monkeysinmypocket 5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I've argued with RP guys who claim they physically can't cheat. That having sex with people other than your partner isn't cheating... but only if you're a man.

[–]basebool 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you make it clear your not comitted which they always will mention.

[–]monkeysinmypocket 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not always...

[–]basebool 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If they don't then its cheating. No matter how any rationalizes it.

Trp is amoral however, so people will still give advice for people that want to cheat or whatever. You can see it as good or bad but thats how they operate

[–]xtfftc 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're citing the Daily Mail in a debate.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If we define monogamy to mean you only have sex with one person right up until you decide to have sex with a different person, the female way, then men are cheating more. If you define monogamy as a commitment to never have sex with another person, the only way that makes any sense, then clearly women are cheating far far more than men. As every branch swing is yet another time cheating.

Besides women will cheat but just hamster away that it doesn't count for any number of reasons. I've watched them do it in real time. You simply can't trust what they say. They will honestly believe that they didn't cheat even if your dick was inside them the night before.

[–]basebool 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for wording it better than I could have. I was meaning to say not only do they lie about it, they genuinely think they didn't cheat somehow

[–]alreadyredschoolRational egoism < Toxic idealism 8 points9 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

TRP hates the average man. He is a fat unattractive slob who maybe has 1-3 relationships with year long dryspells inbetween.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 10 points11 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Then why do so many of it's members get so defensive about him and project all these amazing qualities on him? Seriously, you see these beliefs over and over again from red or red-leaning members here.

[–]basebool 3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

They don't? When have you seen this?

They encourage every single person to lift, be social, approach girls, be alpha, etc, but never have i seen people say good job on this behaviour

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

When have you seen this?

All the time on this sub. Particularly if it's to do with comparing men to women or examining a relationship problem. You mean to tell me you've never seen red pillers say any of the points I've bulleted above? It's probably not as bad on r/TRP the subreddit, but I'm talking on what TRP members on this sub say.

[–]basebool 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Why are you using that sub as reference? Thats not actual redpill shit, thats just a bunch of keyboard warriors posting weird shit.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Read my OP. It's not about true RP theory. It's about what I see self-professed RP members say here.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Why are you using that sub as reference?

You mean this sub? The one you are commenting in?

[–]basebool 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

No the one she posted

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

So... TRP? We shouldn't use /r/TheRedPill as a reference for The Red Pill? In a discussion on Reddit?

[–]basebool 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The sub r/trp is different than r/theredpill. She posted r/trp but now im guessing she meant the latter

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, /r/TRP has nothing at all to do with The Red Pill or even sex and dating in general.

I don't blame you for being confused, I didn't know that until about 10 seconds ago either.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

They don't? When have you seen this?

Are you new here?

[–]basebool 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I am new but I highly doubt, unless you can show me, where rpers defend unnattractive slobs who can only get into long term relationships.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

where rpers defend unnattractive slobs who can only get into long term relationships.

That's shifting goalposts since that was never what we were talking about. Regular ass dudes are routinely painted as paragons of virtue and loyalty. Whether they be slobs or not, the idea that men are more __ is thrown around constantly.

[–]monkeysinmypocket 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They hate themselves.

[–]jackandjill22Red Pill misanthropic, contrarian 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

She's not even making a point she's just shit-posting to get people to argue against her strawman/red herring. She doesn't believe what she's saying. She's just trying to investigate your point of view by antagonizing you.

  • Don't take the bait.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Disagree entirely.

TRP doesn't put average men on a pedestal. Im not sure what exactly you referring to but the whole RP is about that the average man is unattractive in the eyes of women and has been feminized by society. TRP goes out of it's way to say how the average man can't get laid, repulses women, and needs to get lifting.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Y'all

did you read my OP

I specifically said I wasn't referring to RP theory, but TRP members and mostly how they operate on this sub.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

but TRP members and mostly how they operate on this sub.

Do you have a link to an example?

I read your OP, but I think what your looking at is a form of coping or rationalization that some members have as a form of self-empowerment. They don't pedestalize men because the whole reason they are there is because they see and experience failure as a man.

The one's who actually put the average man on a pedestal are incels. They actually believe the average man that is hardworking should have access to sex, regardless of what women think.

No RPer thinks the average man is worthy of sex.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you have a link to an example?

Honestly I don't feel like finding one but if you insist I will find you some tomorrow.

a form of coping or rationalization that some members have as a form of self-empowerment.

That may very well be a part of it. But that doesn't diminish my OP

No RPer thinks the average man is worthy of sex.

Which wasn't my argument. The bulleted points.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Which wasn't my argument. The bulleted points.

All of your bulleted points aren't pedastelization because TRPer's view those points as weaknesses and flaws not as strengths or greatness.

Men sacrifice much more in a relationship

More sacrifice = too much investment =too much comfort for women

Men are more loyal to women

more loyal = lack of dread game = lack of sex/excitement

Men put far more effort into relationships

Similar to first one, over investment is viewed as a weakness because it's often said the woman doesn't do the same and feels too much comfort.

Men are the victims, women are the perpetrators

How did u think this was pedestalization?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

TRPer's view those points as weaknesses and flaws not as strengths or greatness.

Eh, even if so that doesn't negate that they are also guilty of a "men are wonderful" effect. It just means they think the qualities of men being wonderful are also weaknesses. Pedastalization doesn't just equal "good" in the sense of "strong."

How did u think this was pedestalization?

Because underlying that belief is the idea that men are these innocent, virtuous creatures who are just taken advantage of by manipulative shrew women. It's classic good versus evil, in which the "good" is pedastalized.

[–]drok007Not white enough to be blue pill 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Average men are the greatest at being both average and male at the same time.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Not sure if this was supposed to be funny but I laughed.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (63 children) | Copy Link

TRP also claims the average man can barely get laid even though this has absolutely no basis in reality.

One of TRP's biggest faults is believing themselves to be average when in fact they're below average, so they're projecting their own faults onto the rest of the male population.

The stuff you're listing here is more like MRA views, and there is a bit of crossover but as /u/moodybela said it's really just a reaction to WaW.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia 7 points8 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

TRP also claims the average man can barely get laid even though this has absolutely no basis in reality.

Or that teenager boys don't listen to rap music, don't drink and never to go parties.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Lol yes indeed. I mentioned the rap music thing in the current off-topic thread actually.

[–]BiggerDthanYouBluetopia 7 points8 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Some time ago Atlas mentioned that the concept of "cool" doesn't exist for TRP which is a good way to put it.

They've been good boys like their parents told them to be and that's why they hated all the cool kids by default. What they think are average guys are just the other introverted so-nice-that-he's-boring guys, but they don't know average extroverted guys, bad boys or chavs.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Agreed 100%.

TRP genuinely does have practically no concept of "cool." They're too busy sperging out systemising everything instead of living their lives.

As Atlas has also said, if these guys just go to a party and take some MDMA they'd find themselves suddenly doing much better in the social world including with women.

They won't do that though because they're scared. School and their parents told them drugs are bad m'kay and they gotta be good little boys and get perfect grades so they can get mid-level office jobs because that's The Dream™.

These people need to spend a night with me, I'll sort them right out.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

take some MDMA they'd find themselves suddenly doing much better in the social world including with women.

Man, how come it didn't do that for me? I have AFOM has taken a shit ton of few hits and it didn't do shit like that for me him, lol...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It didn't make you more social, feel closer to people? What kind of environment were you in? I find it hard to imagine going to a party on MDMA and not at the very least making friends by striking up conversations.

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I find it hard to imagine going to a party on MDMA and not at the very least making friends by striking up conversations.

Oh sure, lol.

Of course, making friends was never difficult for me in life. I was known for being able to strike up conversations, make friends, and generally bring people together no matter where I was, even when sober. Getting laid through all that? That was a whole different challenge, lol...

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I just watched this whole thing and have developed a massive instantaneous crush on one of them. Omg.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

AWALT confirmed.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

TRP also claims the average man can barely get laid even though this has absolutely no basis in reality.

My god, this is one of my BIGGEST issues with TRP (and other, similar outlets) right now. It flies in the face of reality so much so that sometimes I think some of them don't set foot /r/outside.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

sometimes I think some of them don't set foot /r/outside.

I am pretty sure many of them fit this description exactly.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

This is simply a reddit problem. Most of the people on reddit are nerds

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

True dat.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I see this a lot. "I'm a 6, why don't other 6's want me?" Probably because he's not a 6. One doesn't get to look in the mirror and decide how hot they are.

[–]honeypuppy 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

He may physically be a 6, but his other attributes may drag him considerably lower. For one, feeling entitled to a "looksmatched" partner is a strong indicator of an unattractive personality.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

For sure. I just see lots of guys in these parts who seem very sure of their own "SMV" and are very likely kidding themselves.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. There are some seriously good-looking ForeverAlones. Consider that ripped bodybuilder that doesn't even have friends, let alone a GF.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah these people talk about market value but don't even understand how markets work. I've made OPs about this before but it still never sticks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's because women only want to date up

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Or maybe those guys aren't as attractive as they think they are.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 6 points7 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

TRP also claims the average man can barely get laid even though this has absolutely no basis in reality.

And they claim the reason for this is because the average man is just so nice AKA men are wonderful (and women are terrible for not appreciating how wonderful men are)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I've never seen them claim it's because the men are nice - TRP seems to hate "nice guys" as much as anyone else - but rather they claim it's because only "Chad" can get laid.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

TRP doesn't hate "nice guys". They hate "niceness" and mock failure, and "nice guys" fall right at that intersection.

They also claim that "being nice" in-and-of-itself is a turn-off to women and not only will it not get you laid, it will prevent you from getting laid.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you replace "nice guy" with "white knight", TRP definitely hates on nice guys even today, they just call it a different name.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 5 points6 points  (20 children) | Copy Link

TRP also claims the average man can barely get laid even though this has absolutely no basis in reality.

Right, but some of them also twist this into just another form of men's "victimhood" and another way of taking shots at women (i.e., women are all entitled bitches who overestimate their value and no longer will accept all these perfectly decent, albeit average, men).

The stuff you're listing here is more like MRA views

Eh, you see these beliefs thrown around quite a bit on PPD by folks with red flair.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (15 children) | Copy Link

Right, but some of them also twist this into just another form of men's "victimhood" and another way of taking shots at women

Yep. But is this really putting that man in a pedestal? Even if you blame women for his problems, if you say he cannot get laid you're not really pedestalising him IMO.

Shifting blame, sure, but that's not the same as putting someone on a pedestal either.

Pedestal would be talking about how amazing the guy is, not how victimised he is.

Eh, you see these beliefs thrown around quite a bit on PPD by folks with red flair.

Yeah there is a crossover.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 7 points8 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But is this really putting that man in a pedestal?

I think so. It's saying, "this average man is so great, he would never cheat, he would be so attentive and loving, and it's women who are terrible for not giving this wonderful (average) man a chance." Most men would not make the perfect partners that red pillers want to believe that they would.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah true. See my reply to /u/sublimemongrel I pretty much concede. TRP of old had the attitude that it was your fault if you were fucking up, but TRP of today is all about looking for scapegoats. Pretty shitty really.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Yep. But is this really putting that man in a pedestal? Even if you blame women for his problems, if you say he cannot get laid you're not really pedestalising him IMO.

True, but making him a blameless innocent angel does.

Pedestal would be talking about how amazing the guy is, not how victimised he is.

Sure, but there's also crossover here too. Men are more likely to be victimized by the evil women because they have hearts of gold, etc.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

True, but making him a blameless innocent angel does.

Eh true, and TRP is often guilty of this these days.

It's strange actually, just a year or two ago I'd have been disagreeing with you because TRP used to be very strict on telling beta guys everything is their fault and it's up to them to fix themselves. They would actively attack guys for blaming women for their problems.

But TRP nowadays has done a 180 and likes to blame society, feminism, or anything else they can think of for all their problems.

Shame really. Its one redeeming feature has always been its emphasis on self-responsibility and self-improvement and its even losing sight of that.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Shame really. Its one redeeming feature has always been its emphasis on self-responsibility and self-improvement and its even losing sight of that.

Yeah I heard it wasn't always this way.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It definitely wasn't, I found PPD because I used to somewhat lurk TRP a few years ago, it was always shit but it had way more redeeming features back then than it does now. It was huge on self-responsibility.

Check out these screenshots for example. The narrative was in no uncertain terms that's your fault not the woman.

These days the replies would probably be the complete opposite.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

True, but making him a blameless innocent angel does.

Any RP man that does this isn't a color red I recognize. I sympathize with the "average" man, and perhaps defend him a lot here. But if that man was my friend? I'd tell him to get his shit together and STOP being average.

Perhaps this is why I don't find TRP to be my cup of tea. Because my intent isn't to make the average Joe out to be a victim. I'm mostly trying to explain why he's such a loser despite not being a bad guy. So sure, maybe I talk him up a bit too much here, but I tend to do that because I learned a lot of this the hard way, and I realize many "average" men are still and will always remain clueless. Again my advice to them is don't be average, but knowing every man can't be above average, I still feel compelled to point out why that sucks for them.

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Right you guys think the average guy is a loser, you don't think he is a bad guy with bad intentions the way you think women have bad or selfish intentions.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So the New RP is putting "normal" men on pedestals and women in ditches.

The Old RP didn't necessarily raise "normal" men up, but it still put women down.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I tend to believe most people have selfish motivations to varying degrees, man or woman. Which is partly why I say "people" suck. People implies men and women.

But you're right that I'm lazy and often use "average" in place of "decent but boring", but that's why it's in quotes. And yes there are plenty of asshats on the planet who have a penis. Since women only want nice guys, why would we even be discussing them?

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lol well men only want nice women and yet here we are. What's your point?

So you don't believe men in average are more well-intentioned or "good" than the average woman?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No I have no illusion that men are remotely more well intentioned than women.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because women are far more selfish than men. It's not a bad thing it's just due to biology. Men sacrifice women take.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Self improvement by nature self selects, doesn't it?

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Shifting blame, sure, but that's not the same as putting someone on a pedestal either.

No, that's exactly what it means. Putting someone on a pedestal always involves either ignoring their flaws or blaming someone else for them, otherwise they wouldn't belong on the pedestal. It's self reinforcing, you ignore their flaws to put them up there, and then ignoring their flaws is justified by the fact they are on the pedestal. Shifting blame is 100% part of this.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's true though. Womens self esteem has been massively inflated by society. It's unearned but it causes many women to do exactly what you just said. We're just discussing something that we are readily observing. I observe it all the time.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you're exaggerating. I see plenty of average, decent men in relationships, getting married, etc.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes I'm sure this is true but you do not see the women that men date who have massively inflated unearned self esteem, massive lists of wants and demands, and offer very little in return. I've dated them. There are a lot of them out there.

There's one user on this very forum and I have been asking her what she is going to offer in return to the man whom she makes such high demands from. The very question seems to confuse her.

Of course there are still women around who are more grounded. So men should just date those ones.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Sure, and you don't see all the men that women date who are shitty partners who do not exemplify the qualities listed in my OP.

Of course there are still women around who are more grounded. So men should just date those ones.

Sure, and same thing with women.

[–]PoopInMyBottomNot Red 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The average man is terrible at getting laid. Most men don't really have sex with women outside of relationships. I don't think that belief is delusional.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Apex fallacy

[–]basebool 2 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

No so much the average man can't get laid, more so the average man takes longer. They may go on 4 or 5 dates before sealing the deal while the "alpha" can do it within an hour, and with much hotter and more valuable women.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

There are many RPers on here who pretty much believe the average man is an incel. Dunno what universe they're living in but that's their genuine view.

[–]honeypuppy 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They imagine "getting laid" as porn-style casual sex with strangers, that supposedly every woman will do with a man who is "alpha" enough. "Betas" are strung along for multiple dates. In reality, they're largely dealing with different women altogether.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

So this view is what we call "Reality".

It is not a viewpoint shared by many of the TRPers on this sub.

[–]basebool 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

It doesn't matter what people think, thats just how it is. You can accept it or not

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

No, it does matter how people think, because that is what we're discussing.

This isn't a discussion about what is and is not true, it is a discussion about specific beliefs held and promoted by TRP. The truth or falsehood of the beliefs is what "doesn't matter" in this case because we're talking about belief.

My point was that you are right, but most TRPers are not because they disagree with you.

[–]basebool 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Im confused because my viewpoint is actually very commonly shared by trp. Do you see how many times people post about closing within the same day, within the hour, etc?

I meant specifically blue pill people do not understand this concept and I was saying regardless of what they believe, this is how reality is.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No, the viewpoint that I was saying TRP doesn't share is "No so much the average man can't get laid, more so the average man takes longer."

I've been told in all seriousness by more than a few RPers that an "average" man can't get laid basically at all, or only by completely enslaving themselves to a "betabux" relationship. By holding the opinion that "average" guys can get laid with just a bit of effort you are contradicting TRP orthodoxy.

What is it you think Blue Pill doesn't understand? I pretty much agree with your whole statement in general (which is why I called it "reality") and only differ on fairly insignificant details.

[–]basebool 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No I would argue even the average male can go on a few dates with a women without paying for her and subsequently having sex, all while not really being an alpha. If trp goes against that then thats fine, I don't or anyone else doesn't have to follow every common belief held in trp. Their are married red pillers, even just in LTR's, which go against the belief of never getting married or getting into an LTR.

Point is that I think your point is a bit exagerated and I don't think it's possible to say every average male cannot get laid without being a beta bux because it's possible. However, I understand the point of it being said so people don't fall into the belief that they can still get women while neglecting self-improvement.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

The average man can barely get laid is a pretty accurate statement. This is the internet and blah blah blah I'm a liar but I've slept with well well over 50 girls at this point in my life, age 28. The majority of my friends have barely slept with 10.

It's not a what-if question. It's a basis on reality. It's a quantitative assessment that is factually true.

[–]am_thro_way 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

> 10 partners

> barely able to get laid

pick one

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Be civil.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Why? The simple fact that women have more opportunities to cheat (because an average woman can go up to an average man, imply she wants sex, and get it, while the average man can't do that) is strong evidence that they will cheat more.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

TRP is not about being average, it's about being in the top 1%. It's about asking yourself every day: "How can I be a better person? How can I grow?"

Can men be as shitty as women? Certainly. Nobody said otherwise. We don't recommend No More Mr. Nice Guy for no reason though, it's a huge eye opener to those that are unaware of how manipulative they are when we would rather they be direct.

Can men cheat on women as often if not more? Absolutely! You have a ton of men on TRP cheating on their significant others and trying to justify it. Those people are still dirt bags who have simply learned how to pick up chicks. When spinning plates most of us make it known to the plates we are spinning that we are unavailable for relationships and they can generally infer from there what that means. It's not us cheating on them when all it is is sex.

A man should be loyal to his woman when he feels strongly about being in a monogomous relationship though. It's a sign of maturity and self restraint. It's a sign of strong willpower/self discipline. A highly desired trait for any man who is supposed to be seen as having his shit together.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Read please. I said TRP members not RP theory.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't really read TRP, but here are my observations.

Men sacrifice much more in a relationship

Men lose more and stand to lose more by being tied down. They may not necessarily make sacrifices willingly, but they do inherently make some sacrifices.

Men are more loyal to women

Simple supply and demand. Men have to be more loyal.

Men put far more effort into relationships

See the previous.

Men are less likely to cheat

See the previous.

Men are the victims, women are the perpetrators

This is just counter to the usual idea of the reverse.

Men are smarter/more logical

This is just biology.

Men work harder and have more meaningful/productive jobs or careers

See previous.

Men try everything to make a relationship work whereas women will just give it up in a heartbeat

See "Men put far more effort into relationships"

Men are selfless and more generous

Speaking from man to woman vs. woman to man, that's accurate. If universally, I'd say generosity is about equal, although man to woman/woman to woman outweighs generosity shown from man to man/woman to man.

Men have more integrity and are more honest

In western society, men are usually held accountable for even their innocent actions.

Firstly, we can say with certainty that the western man generally acts with more integrity and honesty.

Now, we can ignore traits gained from evolution and say that if both men and women were punished equally, they'd behave the same.

But it's more likely that men have their physique as their source of protection and women have their social power, both from having a womb and mentally.

Men bring value to a relationship whereas women are only burdensome

This is just a fact of life. Men don't have any need for women until they desire a child, whereas women require men for their survival, even if they aren't actively with a man. Naturally, the systems put in place by men wouldn't vanish if all the men suddenly left, but they wouldn't maintain themselves forever either.

So, even if a man himself isn't bringing value to the relationship, men as a whole are bringing that value in some way.

Of course this is speaking for objective value. Subjective value is not measurable.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

You've just perfectly proved my OP except you're a grey pill.

[–]Ultramegasaurus 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Disagreeing with me proves me right

Are you for real?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well, sure, have you really thought this through? If defaulting to "women are good, virtuous, noble, etc." = the women are wonderful effect, than how is it that defaulting to the above wrt men isn't a men are wonderful effect? Do you honestly think the average man is all these things in comparison to the average woman? Honestly you think the average man is this "good"?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You seem to be using "average" and forgetting that you're talking about average at the same time.

All of these things apply to the truly average western man.

You can add a few things to the man to change things up.

Men are more loyal to women

Men put far more effort into relationships

Men are less likely to cheat

This may not apply to an above average man, because he may have as many viable relationship options as a woman. May also not apply to a poor man, who might not have any ability to bring value to a long term relationship.

Men are smarter/more logical

Men work harder and have more meaningful/productive jobs or careers

May not apply to the below average man, but this is the standard.

Men have more integrity and are more honest

An above average man might have a lot of social privilege, allowing him to behave without integrity an honesty without any consequence. That would reinforce the idea that he can behave this way.

A below average man would require dishonesty to level himself with other men and may likely disregard his potential loss of social standing.

[–]aznphenix 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Men are smarter/more logical

Thought this was men have a larger range, women are all more towards the middle. That would still make averages the same at least for 'smart' ness right?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

On paper, but the way the brains view the world makes the application for males better.

[–]aznphenix 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Source?

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Nice how did I miss that one?

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think that may have come out while you were being dickmatized by your husband.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

LOL. Probably. He has that effect on me.

[–]GawernatorI race motorcycles 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Well if we are measuring hard work in number of hours then yes men do work harder lol. Either way... no. 80/20 rule

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well if we are measuring hard work in number of hours then yes men do work harder lol.

And if we were measuring how many hours women put into working PLUS taking care of the family, the household, and their spouse, my guess it would be the reverse.

80/20 rule

80/20 is comparing men to men and looking at one thing: whether they are attractive to women. My OP is clearly comparing men to women and looking at "good" qualities, not just attractiveness to the opposite sex. MaW doesn't mean men are all sexually attractive.

[–]GawernatorI race motorcycles 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Your guess would be wrong. I'm a private investigator and watch families all day. Most the middle and upper class women don't work much and the ones that do have people to do their chores for them. Daycare etc.

Also neither men nor women are wonderful. People are inherently evil. Your OP is simply confirmation bias. Nothing more.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm a private investigator and watch families all day. Most the middle and upper class women don't work much and the ones that do have people to do their chores for them. Daycare etc.

Well the stats tell a different story. My guess is the type of people to hire private investigators aren't a great representation of the average women.

My OP is that TRP is suffering from the MaW effect. How is that "simply confirmation bias"?

[–]GawernatorI race motorcycles 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not hired by those people.

Because you have a preconceived notion of what you want to believe about it, probably subconscious, and will cherry pick data to support your conclusion.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because you have a preconceived notion of what you want to believe about it, probably subconscious, and will cherry pick data to support your conclusion.

What is cherrypicked? You're not explaining your case here, you're just accusing me of things but you're not backing up your accusations.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you think TRPers are bad at pedestalising men, you should have a look at MGTOWers!

According to them, every man is this noble, logical, stand-up member of society, who will respond to a military call-up in a second's notice, while working 16-hours a day in their gruelling and dangerous profession which has a 95% fatality rate.

All the while, entitled and uppity females are spending hours posting narcissistic selfies, and curling their lips in disgust when they interact with any man who is less than a 9/10, 6'7'', £5m+ year professional sportsman with an 8-pack and a 9-inch cock.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol, this was fucking great! I'm sure some of those MGTOWian sentiments are partly what has shaped my opinion in my OP as well.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yep.

Men are magnificent and magnanimous in the eyes of the red pill.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Actually they pedestalise themselves, I'm not sure thats the same thing. That and theres a tribal immaturity about boys being awesome and girls having cooties

Would you disagree with these qualities if they were presented as most men are x rather than men are more x than women?

fundamentally I think the average person is pretty decent.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually they pedestalise themselves, I'm not sure thats the same thing.

Fair point, I wonder if this is human nature.

Would you disagree with these qualities if they were presented as most men are x rather than men are more x than women?

Idk, maybe. If it was framed like "the average man puts effort into a relationship," sure, but that's not much of a pedastalization.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Men "can" be those things. Of course they can be. So what? Why would a group of men discussing male issues talk about that shit? We don't care. This is a classic attempt to push the female narrative into a male space. We don't care about the horrible men you want to complain about in TRP.

But this isn't TRP so to address your comment:

Does society encourage and even reward those things in men? Of course not. But they do for women. Men need to be warned about this because when a man fucks up he'll be punished. Hell even when he doesn't fuck up often he'll still be punished for a woman's bad behavior (gee I thought we were going 'free' women so men didn't have to be responsible for them anymore. What happened to that?). Meanwhile almost no one is willing to hold any woman accountable for anything she does. Hell you start holding women accountable and all of a sudden everyone loses their shit.

And of course a ton of the shit is hyperbole. Feminism has gone so far off the rails, creating such horrible entitled low value women, that a serious push back needs to take place. On one hand we have an entire society that praises and even rewards parasitic child abusing single mother scum. Calls them heroic and steals money from hard working men to give to them, thereby making it that much harder for a non child abusing couple to have children that aren't going to end up all fucked up emotionally.

Where were you when single mothers were being praised? Were you saying hold on now bastardism creates massive problems for a society, is incredible harmful for children, and these women are parasites? Of course not because you are only interested in pushing the feminine imperative. Hell wouldn't shock me if you defended those "heroic" single mothers and found a way to blame men for them as well.

Guess what we're sick and tired of this entitled bullshit. Now we go just as hard in the other direction.

Your post is laughable concern trolling though. Nobody in trp cares about your attempts to blame shift and inject the FI into our discussions. We are already drowning in that shit every single day.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You must be trolling, I refuse to believe you missed the point of my post this badly. Nothing about my post is attempting to push any "feminine imperative" or is fear mongering. It's an observation I've made after being a frequent PPDer for over a year now. If you want to attack my observations, go ahead, but most of what you've written is ramblings unrelated to my central premise -- which has nothing to do with single mothers or feminism. How you got that I'm "concern trolling" I probably will never figure out.

[–]BiggestOfBosses 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Projection. Or wishful projection (as in wishful thinking). Pretty much sums up my problems with The Red Pill. They all have their heads up their own assholes thinking that men can do no wrong and women are devils, thereby inflating their egos to ASStronomical levels. Both men and women are assholes. That's why misanthropy is the master race.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

thereby inflating their egos to ASStronomical levels.

Lol, I like this.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Copland

When women make up 90% of industrial fatalities working their ass off to support their man and children, then come back and talk.

PS: did you know that Becky means "tied up"?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Whatever Chinese site you just linked me to I can't get that video to play :/

PS: did you know that Becky means "tied up"?

What?

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Google "Copland Fanfare to the Common Man" or look on Youtube (I can't link to Youtube here in China).

Seriously: the name Rebecca means "snare" or "tied" or "tied up" or something similar. Look it up.

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[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have no idea where you got the impression RP men think the "average man" is wonderful. One of the primary principles of RP is don't be "average", because average isn't good enough.

And personally, I spent much of my youth believing most men were horn dogs led around by their dicks. On more than one occasion I actually said so to a guy with less than stellar results! I never in my life for one moment believed the "average man" was some noble creature. They're mostly labor slaves. Some of them are decent, many of them suck. I defend both types in general when it comes to these discussions, but don't take that to mean I'm defending their honor or something.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

One of the primary principles of RP is don't be "average", because average isn't good enough.

It's not RP theory that does this, it's RP members. You're not one of the ones who does this. By "average man" I mean they seem to believe the average man is far more wonderful than the average woman. The average man epitomizes the bulleted points in my OP, etc.

[–]dragoness_leclerq🚑 Vagina Red Cross 🚑 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have no idea where you got the impression RP men think the "average man" is wonderful.

Look around. They'll attribute all sorts of goodly things to men and when criticized or called out, they'll try to backpedal or mansplain it away by saying "but TRP isn't about trying to fuck men!"

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 2 points3 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

the average BETA man

[–]i_have_a_semicolonPurple Pill Woman 4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

The average men aren't betas ?

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah good point

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Depends on what "scale" you're using. Could be omega, beta, or fruit roll up depending on who you ask.

[–]trpobservereats ass 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Excuse me, you forgot to list Apache-kin you shitlord

[–]DrunkGirl69Manic Pixie Drunk Girl 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Which is still wrong, I think it's all about assholistic opportunity

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

True.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No one is going to attempt CYV, they'll just rationalise it and call it a day.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's what humans do!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I swallowed the RockinSocks pill: "Everyone is a shitty human being!"

[–]SilentLurker666Why are there so many Bluepill with Red/Purple Flair? 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A group of people that have the philosophy of prioritizing themselves... and it's wrong because of patriarchy /s

[–]Feeldariddim 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

who gilds a post in PPD? you people are too poor to waste money on such stupid things.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

(takes that as "congratulations")

Hey thanks.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree to some extend, but still want to change your view somewhat:

Trp pedestalises the average BETA man.

And in my opinion, rightfully so.

Most of the beta (not omega) guys I know check every item on the list you gave in OP.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Most of the beta (not omega) guys I know check every item on the list you gave in OP.

In comparison to the average woman the average beta man is just this great?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

From my experience, yes.

It's not always because of "they are great". Sometimes they just aren't good at setting boundaries for example. Or they want other people to like them for validation. So, oftentimes, the listed things are only symptoms of different issues.

But I do think that a lot of it is because of the male protective instinct. In a positivd sense. I am not really into all the red pill evo-psych stuff, but I have thought about it a lot and from what I have seen, the male protective instinct seems to be a thing.

[–]HeatseekingLogicBombNow with 20% more initiation of force 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Your premise is totally invalid because 80/20 we're so fond of referencing says most men are pretty much worthless in our eyes.

  • Men sacrifice much more in a relationship

They do. Men have a much higher legal liability and expectancy to be competent. Both sides compromise physical standards to achieve marriage/LTR goals/avoid loneliness.

  • Men are more loyal to women

Not sure where you got that. TRP speaks of biological imperatives, and how men's is to "roam/spread genetics". That's taken as a given. This inherently acknowledges the male half of non-monogamy. I myself made a post recently referencing a study that indicates men and women cheat about equally in developed cultures. (I'm not insinuating men cheat less in undeveloped cultures. I don't know how that dynamic would tip outside of a more "equalized" society.)

  • Men put far more effort into relationships

Men have burden of initiation and performance. Women have more access. Women have burden of retaining relationships (men have burden of gaining sex to begin with) but most men's standards are pretty low to be honest. Same for women. Because? Both sides lack a lot of domestic value at this point. Both sides have to be attractive, healthy, able to contribute monetarily, and be able to perform chores/tasks.

  • Men are less likely to cheat

Same as loyalty.

  • Men are the victims, women are the perpetrators

Men sacrifice for societies (war) and sacrifice their own prerogatives to gain access. Women have abundant access. Feminism wasn't started by men. Though, there's an example. Many men compromised their traditionalism to compensate for their own lack of value thinking they can leverage it into being perceived as higher worth. They aren't necessarily still traditionalists, but they still are like "yeah, sure, go feminism!" without looking into the issues because they think it helps their worth and are scared of social ostracism.

Everything is an extension of these mortal roles. Men are disposable. Women are not. (Average) men don't have access. Most women do. While women do sacrifice plenty, developed societies are not oppressive patriarchies. It's basically turning into a revenge situation, and men are still viewed as the enemy. For every feminist that is pushing for more, there are a few women who are happy to remain silent and let them do their work. There are even more who are wary of the side-effects that will come or have come already, but few people of either gender are willing to risk ostracism and non-stop character assassination that comes with being anti-fem.

This does manifest in individual relationships.

  • Men are smarter/more logical

Again, not sure where you get this unless you're pulling certain comments from non-ECs and not from TRM (Tomassi). I've seen plenty of discussions of how smart it is for women to play their dualistic strategy to a tee.

  • Men work harder and have more meaningful/productive jobs or careers

TRP doesn't say professional women don't contribute to society. However men do put in more hours, take more dangerous jobs, bigger risks, go into more demanding fields. Most people don't take on the most demanding jobs. But these are basically why the wage gap exists.

  • Men try everything to make a relationship work whereas women will just give it up in a heartbeat

Never seen this claimed, and I'd hazard a guess I read a ton more TRP than you. If that's true, it's again because of access, which isn't disputed.

  • Men are selfless and more generous

Men have the burden of performance. Again; access. Necessity is motivation. Both genders require selflessness to properly raise kids and not have a broken home.

  • Men have more integrity and are more honest

Yes, TRP is basically saying that. We don't have a "leveling up" strategy as a gender. Pretty sure we had, in my sparing visits to PPD, a conversation where we talked about male vs. female hypergamy, OP, and how 10-20% of men doesn't equal 70-80% of women.

  • Men bring value to a relationship whereas women are only burdensome

I don't recall seeing this even in the main TRP forum which is pretty anti-LTR and very anti-marriage. If you looked at MRP and the like, you'd see they're not about that at all, either.

Men and women who lack domestic value, which is more true now, are burdens on LTRs. From an economic standpoint, we see why. They need to work harder outside the home, and they spend more of their youth (their training days) just living lives of excess.

That's fine though. It's amoral. But it has repercussions.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Your premise is totally invalid because 80/20 we're so fond of referencing says most men are pretty much worthless in our eyes.

The 80/20 rule compares men to men and only looks at whether they are attractive. It doesn't compare men to women (as my OP is clearly in reference to) and it doesn't have anything to do with "men are wonderful" type attributes. It's purely about attraction not being a "good" man/person.

They do. Men have a much higher legal liability and expectancy to be competent. Both sides compromise physical standards to achieve marriage/LTR goals/avoid loneliness.

Do they though or is this just male solipsism (well I think I sacrifice more so therefore the average man must also)? "Legal liability" isn't a thing in family law and if you're referring to risking of assets you realize that doesn't apply relationship-wide, it's specific to marriage, and you realize women, on average, sacrifice a hell of a lot more on the career front and on contributing more than 50% to the household and family care. Objectively, that seems like women sacrifice more. Men may risk more but risk =/= sacrifice.

Not sure where you got that.

This is what is repeated by TRPers (and tbf, but men in general) on this sub. I got this straight out of the horse's mouth.

Men have burden of initiation and performance. Women have more access. Women have burden of retaining relationships (men have burden of gaining sex to begin with) but most men's standards are pretty low to be honest. Same for women. Because? Both sides lack a lot of domestic value at this point. Both sides have to be attractive, healthy, able to contribute monetarily, and be able to perform chores/tasks.

This sounds like you believe the genders are about equal for this bullet point.

Men are disposable. Women are not. (Average) men don't have access. Most women do. While women do sacrifice plenty, developed societies are not oppressive patriarchies. It's basically turning into a revenge situation, and men are still viewed as the enemy.

Sounds like agree men are being victimized.

his does manifest in individual relationships.

Sounds like you agree men are being victimized by women. How does it manifest?

I've seen plenty of discussions of how smart it is for women to play their dualistic strategy to a tee.

Fair enough, again I'm going on what I see men/RPers say on this sub.

Never seen this claimed

I have, repeatedly. "Women will leave in a heartbeat because, hypergamy. Men stay and try and make it work." Repeatedly.

Men have the burden of performance. Again; access. Necessity is motivation. Both genders require selflessness to properly raise kids and not have a broken home.

Are you saying it's not true then that men are more selfless and more generous?

Yes, TRP is basically saying that.

Right, without any sound basis.

I don't recall seeing this even in the main TRP forum which is pretty anti-LTR and very anti-marriage.

Again, I see it all the time on this sub which is where I said in my OP I'm drawing my conclusions from.

[–]HeatseekingLogicBombNow with 20% more initiation of force 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your premise is "TRP pedestalizes the average man".

With the level of scorn TRP speaks with regarding them, it is not comparing them favorably to anyone, women or "the 20". In fact it's implicitly and often explicitly blaming them for "the state of the modern woman" ("caving to feminism", etc.)


They do. Men have a much higher legal liability and expectancy to be competent. Both sides compromise physical standards to achieve marriage/LTR goals/avoid loneliness.

It's not restricted to family courts (which are biased, feminist lobbied, the opposite effect of "old school" judges are new age white knights who think women can do no wrong), it's also domestic abuse (same bias), and men tend to out-earn women. Non-monetary duties are also shared more ("peer marriage-contracts" vs romantic pair-bonding) so men are taking a risk they don't have to (sacrificing legal safety / sovereign irrelevance to the issue) to maintain LTRs/commitment/family building. Women do sacrifice, but when a woman has to deal with pregnancy, a man has to deal with working that much harder to both provide monetarily and provide other logistical support.


Not sure where you got that. TRP speaks of biological imperatives, and how men's is to "roam/spread genetics". That's taken as a given. This inherently acknowledges the male half of non-monogamy

Men are more loyal

Sorry I should clarify; I don't see that claim made by mods, ECs, nor endorsed blogs.

In an equal/default setting, it wouldn't be true. We don't have an equal setting.


This sounds like you believe the genders are about equal for this bullet point.

Except women have a constant bar-raising system, and men don't. Men basically always fall into sunken cost fallacy (low standards, scarcity mentality), and women only do late in life when they can't utilize their preferred system and their goals shift.


Sounds like agree men are being victimized.

They are. Their gender role to sacrifice for war isn't the issue (at least in gender relations). Being exploited for that natural predisposition as it manifests in the hindbrain to sacrifice is.

I'll give you a little response, but as you made the original assertion, remember you'd have the burden of proving it false (that men aren't victimized). The compliance to feminism and the institutional lobbying they've done to affect the courts. Men extending the right to vote to women isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about modern feminism, where any expression of what people would call amused mastery, laughing and not giving a fuck (about the feminist's own subjective beliefs, no less), is "toxic masculinity" (aka feminist sexism). Pushing the false ideas that all men are apathetic over rape. Pushing for "gender meritocracy" in fields based on the gender balance that exists within the species while that same balance doesn't exist within a given field, thus empowering not necessarily qualified people over better candidates. Establishing laws that cater to females and not getting rid of them after they've served their purpose even though it's already shown they do better in school and graduate at higher rates. Subsidizing women getting into only the safest and highest paying male dominated fields. Pushing the idea that only intoxicated women don't have agency, and men always do. Pretty much anything related to feminism is insane and built on statistical misrepresentation and arbitrary projection. (Speaking of which, redefining what constitutes legal rape so that men can't be raped?)


@ female intelligence

I'll have to browse PPD a bit more to see if what you're talking about pops up a bit. I have seen some random, extremely angry people go off-topic ranting about gender supremacy, but again I am basing my responses on mods, endorsed contributors, the endorsed blogs, and the common sentiments.


Are you saying it's not true then that men are more selfless and more generous?

I did say men sacrifice more earlier. And I stand by it. Though to be fair, I don't think it's really about selflessness and generosity between them. Things are transactional. Even when subconscious, people are making a trade, and both sides perceive things subjectively. There isn't only a win-lose transaction, there are win-wins and lose-loses.

Where that logic deviates is if they want kids. Then success requires them both to be selfless towards each other and their kids especially.


without any sound basis.

As I've said before, basically all of history built non-top demo men to sacrifice the "spread genes widely" goal, because they don't have access, and their genes die if they didn't sacrifice all the way up to death if need be. In the era of no contraception and extreme mortality rates, which both have only very recently ended, women required the replacement of provision and they needed that often. Evolution built in a detach and/or upgrade system for them. Women are the ones who hold the main agency of reproduction. They, and the kids, are not disposable. The kids go with them, therefore the the male doesn't need a constant external-provider replacement strategy. The man was the provider, and in most of history, he's also then dead.


Again, I see it all the time on this sub which is where I said in my OP I'm drawing my conclusions from.

My bad there as I did base my responses off of not-PPD and so I apologize for that.

[–]DogfishSushi1 points [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

TRP doesn't pedestalize the average man, it simply removes 50 years of feminist bullshit and tells the truth.

Your bullet-pointed list that is supposed to be outrageous and triggering is, in fact, 100% true.

Men are superior to women.

How do I know? Look at the world around you. Men have built 99.9% of it. Why didn't women build it? Because the couldn't have. How do I know? Because if they could have, they would have.

It's funny how much these blue pill ministrations ignore objective reality.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

that is supposed to be outrageous and triggering

It's not, it's an accurate representation of some of the things I've seen RPers (and other men) say on this sub. I didn't exaggerate.

How do I know? Look at the world around you. Men have built 99.9% of it. Why didn't women build it? Because the couldn't have. How do I know? Because if they could have, they would have.

Even if this is true, it's irrelevant. What does building the world have to do with 90% of the bullet points I raised? Btw I'm waiting with baited breath to hear about your major accomplishment since apparently the average man is now individually building civilization with the average women is not.

It's funny how much these blue pill ministrations ignore objective reality.

Objective reality tells you that the average man is just as flawed as the average woman, or certainly close to it. Not that the average man is superior because uh, history.

[–][deleted]  (3 children) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Do you understand you haven't made a rebuttal to my argument?

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You brought up irrelevant points that don't address my OP. You haven't refuted it whatsoever. How you didn't get that from my last comment I don't know. It's right there, plainly stated in clear English.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (14 children) | Copy Link

Men do have more integrity in most cases, it's the same with honor, women know nothing about honor, why? Because they are women, they don't give a fuck about honor, integrity, and all that bullshit, they care about their feelings and feelings of others, that's all.

Men are smarter and for sure much more logical, 95% of female posts i saw here are fucking stupid, completely illogical and controlled by emotions.

Men work harder, it's fucking fact, are you dumb or something?

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

"Because they are women" isn't a convincing argument of anything. It's circular.

Men are smarter and for sure much more logical, 95% of female posts i saw here are fucking stupid, completely illogical and controlled by emotions.

Do you not understand how ironic you are being right now? Women are completely illogical and controlled by emotions and yet you just wrote one of the most emotionally-laden responses ITT. SO emotional, in fact, that you felt the need to question my intelligence (lol). There isn't one single logical argument even made in your comment.

Men work harder, it's fucking fact, are you dumb or something?

Depends on what you qualify as "work." If "work" includes both job/career + taking care of your spouse/family/home, then idk if this is true. Statistically women do more than men do in this department.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

No i don't understand how ironic i am, you don't even understand what i mean by emotional, i say they think with empathy and compassion over harsh truth, i fucking hate that.

Yeah, me, someone who is not emotional wrote an emotional driven response, yeah, makes sense, i am not the one defending minorities even though it has nothing to do with me lmfao.

I told you, women are illogical, most SJW are females, how the fuck do you explain that? Simple, lack of logic and too much emotions.

I mean WORK, REAL WORK, not blowing your hubby off or cleaning the sheets.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

i say they think with empathy and compassion over harsh truth, i fucking hate that.

Well if that was the case then don't you think some of the bullet points in my OP would be incorrect?

Yeah, me, someone who is not emotional wrote an emotional driven response, yeah, makes sense

Well let's be objective here. So far, the only arguments you've provided to my OP are "the bullet points are true because women are women" (circular and void of substance) and "you must be stupid." Not exactly the hallmarks of a thought out, logical argument. You're even using emotion-laden language (i.e., "hate).

i am not the one defending minorities even though it has nothing to do with me lmfao.

What? How is defending minorities relevant here? What minorities and who is defending them?

I told you, women are illogical, most SJW are females, how the fuck do you explain that? Simple, lack of logic and too much emotions.

If that's how we judge an an entire gender I'm afraid that's not a sound argument. Most religious extremists and conspiracy theorists are male -- how do you explain that?

I mean WORK, REAL WORK, not blowing your hubby off or cleaning the sheets.

Ok, according to google, men work an average of 42 minutes a day more than women but women make that up in housework.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not every woman thinks with empathy, on average they do, see a begger, they crumble in sadness, see a puppy, they melt. It is based on emotions.

No, me calling someone stupid is very much a hallmark of a thought out logical argument, i analyze the person and conclude he/she is fucking stupid.

What i am trying to say is that women are not capable of handling harsh decisions because they are emotional beings to the core. A typical woman is for accepting refugees, this is because they feel bad for them and scream everyone's lives matter (they don't).

Yeah men work more and take less time off. Housework, yeah, especially now when all the bitches say " naaaah we won't clean up for our husband, FUCK HIM" , don't be funny.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Not every woman thinks with empathy, on average they do, see a begger, they crumble in sadness, see a puppy, they melt.

So if women are like this, on average, how can you say that the average man is better than the average woman as to all the bullet points above? Seems to me if women are more empathetic and compassionate, they'd sacrifice more, they'd be more generous, they'd put more effort into things, etc.

No, me calling someone stupid is very much a hallmark of a thought out logical argument, i analyze the person and conclude he/she is fucking stupid.

Analyzing a person's intelligence on the basis of one PPD post isn't very logical unless the post is completely lacking any indicia of intelligence, which mine isn't. Do you honestly think the "logical" conclusion here as to why we disagree is because I'm stupid? Do you think everyone who disagrees with you is stupid?

What i am trying to say is that women are not capable of handling harsh decisions because they are emotional beings to the core. A typical woman is for accepting refugees, this is because they feel bad for them and scream everyone's lives matter (they don't).

You're conflating a lot of concepts here. Just because someone is pro-refugee doesn't mean they are incapable of being logical or that the reason they are pro-refugee isn't logical. Just because someone believes that minorities are more heavily targeted with police violence and that this is a problem doesn't mean there isn't any logic backing up their beliefs and it's purely emotional.

It sounds like you're equating logic with "whatever political beliefs align with mine" and emotional with "whatever political beliefs don't align with mine." You understand that political beliefs in a lot of cases--particularly with domestic policy--boil down to value decisions don't you? Not logic versus emotion.

Yeah men work more and take less time off. Housework, yeah, especially now when all the bitches say " naaaah we won't clean up for our husband, FUCK HIM" , don't be funny.

So what you're really saying is that despite me giving you the facts which have been studied you just feel women aren't actually doing housework.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well it's hard to believe women do the housework since as we both know it's safe to say that the housework is shared, especially now when women wanna feel empowered lol.

Empathic person is good as a nurse, or some shit, care taker, but that's all, you want your leader, doctor whatever to be as cold as possible so he will do what is neccessary for the greater good of people even if that means death of some random muslims

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Lol I can't believe sublime got gold for this submission.

PPD is mostly a waste of time if you're already rp accepting. It did help me however in solidifying all positions as talking to women here is utterly futile. At best they're good for like two posts and then their emotions kick in and GG. Ppd is almost like a bp run con...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

Oh remember, women are not at all emotional, crying when Trump got elected is a sign of strong emotional backbone.

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Oh remember, women are not at all emotional, crying when Trump got elected is a sign of strong emotional backbone.

Rofl, very good point. Hahahaha, never thought of this.

Where you always rp? I held a lot of cognitive dissonance for a long while.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Nah, i don't think of myself as a red piller, some of the things written on Red Pill are great, some are stupid, you just need to take the good information and ignore the bad. I stand for myself and my view points, that's how i think of it.

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

That is a good way to think. What do you think rp gets wrong?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like they get the alpha beta thing wrong, being an alpha doesn't mean fucking random sluts worth a penny, an alpha male has certain traits , loyalty, dignity, honor, self respect, confidence, strenght. That's one.

Second is that Red Pillers talk how they want to take women off the pedestal, but they do the opposite, they focus on dating, they make up pick up games to help men with picking up women, as far as i can see, they focus on women as much as those beta do but just in different way.

Women have sex and they use sex as a powerplay and it works, those alpha males from Red Pill are victims of it, so the only way to be a true man is to stop giving a fuck about women, they need to stop being desperate for sex because desperation = weakness.

I never needed those weird ass tips from RP to attract women, i never followed any pattern, i did what i wanted to do and it worked damn good. I have power over women, not the other way around.

Also, RP says fuck marriage, while i agree it can lead to problems if marriage fails and all that but that mindset is bad, have a family, provide for your wife, protect her, take care of your children, be a real man.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I feel like they get the alpha beta thing wrong, being an alpha doesn't mean fucking random sluts worth a penny, an alpha male has certain traits , loyalty, dignity, honor, self respect, confidence, strenght. That's one.

Second is that Red Pillers talk how they want to take women off the pedestal, but they do the opposite, they focus on dating, they make up pick up games to help men with picking up women, as far as i can see, they focus on women as much as those beta do but just in different way.

Women have sex and they use sex as a powerplay and it works, those alpha males from Red Pill are victims of it, so the only way to be a true man is to stop giving a fuck about women, they need to stop being desperate for sex because desperation = weakness.

I never needed those weird ass tips from RP to attract women, i never followed any pattern, i did what i wanted to do and it worked damn good. I have power over women, not the other way around.

Also, RP says fuck marriage, while i agree it can lead to problems if marriage fails and all that but that mindset is bad, have a family, provide for your wife, protect her, take care of your children, be a real man.

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I feel like they get the alpha beta thing wrong, being an alpha doesn't mean fucking random sluts worth a penny, an alpha male has certain traits , loyalty, dignity, honor, self respect, confidence, strenght. That's one.

Generally, that definition of alpha traits is correct. Alphas are leaders quite simply.

Second is that Red Pillers talk how they want to take women off the pedestal, but they do the opposite, they focus on dating, they make up pick up games to help men with picking up women, as far as i can see, they focus on women as much as those beta do but just in different way.

What pick up games are you referring to? Trp was born out of pua, but I don't find trp gives any real step by step strategy outside of be attractive, don't be unattractive.

Many alphas do focus on women a lot, it's a valid life path, living for pussy and fun. Something simple men do especially.

Women have sex and they use sex as a powerplay and it works, those alpha males from Red Pill are victims of it, so the only way to be a true man is to stop giving a fuck about women, they need to stop being desperate for sex because desperation = weakness.

Can't someone see women as a hobby and not be desperate? Desperation is very weak, and unattractive, a product of scarcity mentality.

I never needed those weird ass tips from RP to attract women, i never followed any pattern, i did what i wanted to do and it worked damn good. I have power over women, not the other way around.

Presumably you learned how to deal with women from experience.

What tips do you find weird?

Also, RP says fuck marriage, while i agree it can lead to problems if marriage fails and all that but that mindset is bad, have a family, provide for your wife, protect her, take care of your children, be a real man.

You can do this without getting married. Rp says marriage is risky because of the state of our currently laws more so than don't get married. There is the married red pill subreddit after all and several of the bigger writers are married too.

Marriage is simply risky and makes keeping a woman in check even harder.

Granted, you're also moralizing a bit. If a man wants to spread his seed and not raise his kids, I don't really hold that against him.

[–]scallopkidCardio bunny 🐇 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I would guess that if you could measure such a thing, the average man is more "good," based on your list, than the average woman. I would attribute this to men on average being raised with more accountability and having more of a protective instinct.

[–]TryHardDaily -2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Atlas is almost correct. You mixed views of what we consider a BP man and a RP man into the same person. Generally we do see RP men as more logical than women, because women are largely driven by emotions and feelings. However, men being victims or sacrificing for a relationship is BP. We don't pedestalize the average man, but we see the average RP man as a big improvement compared to an average man.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not really comparing RP men to non-RP men. If that was the question than yeah, RP men pretty much bash BP or "beta" guys. It's whenever men and women are compared, not men compared to other men.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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