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She wants marriage. (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by [deleted]x3

Long-time lurker here. I know this is a long post, but I really feel this is need-to-know level stuff. Find a comfy spot and read.

I decided to write because I had a recent experience in my LTR that sent me on a somewhat obsessive hunt for RedPill thoughts on marriage. Many posts echo “don’t marry” as a central tenet of RedPill life strategy, but I haven’t been able to find a really good core post on the subject.

If you’re interested in my situation, it’s at the bottom. But for itchy eyes I’m going to jump right in:

#1 – the greatest power is the power to walk away

The power to walk away underpins many RedPill concepts:

Preselection = you have been with other attractive girls. Your history with attractive girls means you are attractive to other girls. Being attractive to other girls means you have options. Having options means you have the power to walk away.

Social proof = a lot of people (including girls) like you. Being popular implies you have high value. Being high value means you have options. Having options means you have the power to walk away.

Dread game = even on the inside of a marriage or LTR, you can effectively turn the tables by convincing your SO that you have the power to walk away.

Abundance mentality = realizing ‘I have the power to walk away’.

All of game, from A to Z, is about generating an impression in a woman that you are worth keeping around and have the power to walk away. She does that one line of math in her head and realizes that she has to do the work to keep you around. And not just women…

Your employer needs you and you have another job offer. You have the power to walk away. You can literally put a price on the power to walk away.

Anything that takes away your power to walk away, takes away your power. You can see where this is going.

#2 – marriage redistributes the power to walk away

First point, the obvious: whatever you stand to lose through divorce is the cost to you of walking away.

Second point, not so obvious: Western marriage has an implicit “shotgun clause”. At any point, for any reason or for no reason at all, either party can ask for a divorce and have everything wrapped up 365 days later. This is called “no-fault divorce” and is the norm in the Western World. It is sometimes referred to as “Marriage 2.0” for those who have seen that term. It is one of the central “achievements” of feminism and the main reason why marriage is so dangerous for the higher earner – more often than not, the man.

For those who are wondering, the predecessor to “no-fault divorce” was “for-fault divorce” (Marriage 1.0). The law used to require, many years ago, that to get a divorce you had to demonstrate to the courts that your spouse was abusive, committed adultery, or otherwise egregiously broke their wedding vows. A spouse couldn’t just run off with half the estate.

But back to marriage 2.0: at any point in time, for any reason or no reason at all, a spouse can literally run off with half the estate. He/she just has to decide there are “irreconcilable differences”.

Property

In divorce, any increase in property that occurs after the date of marriage is split 50/50. This includes all income … any dollar saved, any asset purchased with dollars earned after the date of marriage, all investment income and capital gains, even on assets that were brought into the marriage. All increase of any kind belongs to both spouses equally.

Simplifying a bit, this is what happens to property in a divorce: you calculate your joint net worth, each of you keeps anything you brought into the marriage – valued based on what it was worth when you got married, the lawyers take theirs, and the rest is split 50/50.

The matrimonial home is treated differently. In spite of whoever owns it, brought it into the marriage, or made the payments – any equity in it is split 50/50.

Alimony

If the lower-earning spouse doesn’t earn enough to support the lifestyle they have gotten used to, the higher-earner will most likely have to cover this cost for a set number of years to come. For example, if the woman is a homemaker and cannot possibly be employed, the payments end … never. Alimony is often based on earning potential rather than actual income and can become an immovable high watermark.

Custody laws tend to favor women, etc…

My purpose isn’t to explain family law. You should do your own research.

Anyway, let’s just assume we’re all men reading this, and that we intend to be the higher earners. Our cost of walking away is onerous. But our prerogatives aside, we also have to be vigilant because she can walk away at any time, for no reason at all, and be the beneficiary of a large and ongoing wealth transfer.

Marriage redistributes the power to walk away, from the higher earner to the lower earner – from you to her.

So now you’re married. Things are great. But marriage is hard. You have to suffer each other, day after day, month after month, year after year.

Post-war people are fickle, entitled, and ravenous for gratification. The younger they are, the more this is true. The Me Generation. Someone in your wife’s circle of friends is going to break a nail and do this research. She’ll find out she can be paid to leave the man she is having “irreconcilable differences” with (he got a bit lazy and chubby, and there’s this other guy at work).

Your wife will start to see divorces happening all around her – divorce rates are that high – she’ll be hearing about how “empowered” her divorced friends are, and how much they “got”. She will calculate her divorce benefits as soon as she realizes that divorce pays out like a benefit plan. It’s in her nature. Even if she thinks she is above divorcing for cash, she will do that math … ‘just to see’.

From this point on, the divorce numbers will be priced into all of your interactions. It’ll come out the next time you’re at a relationship low or in a bad enough fight. She will price your cost of walking away into the strength of her resolve, even if only subconsciously. And you? You vowed away your power to walk away. Your only option is the divorce itself – a costly outcome that will be priced into your position as weakness.

We know how hypergamy works. We know how attraction works. We know how this situation ends. She’ll get to the point where she doesn’t even care about the shape your life will take when she walks away. She’ll just walk. RedPill has a term for this: “divorce rape”.

You may think, ‘Not me; not mine.’ However…

#3 – divorce is statistically quite likely

Divorce is a common bird in the Western World.

The divorce rate in your jurisdiction may or may not be above 50%, but it is probably edging toward it. For example, in Canada where I live, around 40% of marriages are projected to end in divorce before their 30th wedding anniversaries.

Do the research for your jurisdiction. The numbers have meaning. Like stock prices, they reflect underlying mass truth: levels of entitlement in people, economic realities, the effects of family law, mass media, the moral quality of the culture, etc:

Mass truth.

Since most people use the United States as a reference, I will as well. Depending on who you cite, around 50% of marriages in the United States end in divorce. It seems like an accepted number so I’ll forego the fact-checking here.

Another important statistic: at least two thirds of divorces are initiated by women. I have had difficulty finding a single solid source for this, but the ones that I have found all sing the same tune: two thirds (or more) of divorces are initiated by women. Sources at the bottom of the post.

Less and less people are choosing to marry. In Canada, where I live, the marriage rate has fallen by almost half since the post-war boom (from ~8 annual marriages to ~4 per 1000 people).

One final nuance: divorce rates in religious communities are much lower than in non-religious communities. I have a feeling that RedPill is a majority-secular crowd. So be aware that among your peers divorce could really be as likely as heads or tails, maybe worse. Go flip a coin a few times to see how shaky a prospect it is when you really need the flip to go your way. In marriage you really really do, especially if you are the higher earner.

We’re not speaking in certainties but in probabilities. Obviously, the specifics of a circumstance shape its outcome; but we are dealing with potent, meaningful numbers here. Remember, mass truth. These numbers reflect truths about our men, our women, our laws, and our societies.

Some couples hamster their way through unhappy marriages: “for the kids”, “for financial reasons”, “for fear of social consequences”, etc. What percentage of marriages are happy? A likely minority. Worse than a coin toss.

#4 – marriage is a business decision

Marriage is a risk/reward decision with hard-to-figure, long-term outcomes.

To the degree that the realities and statistics above are true, a RedPill man ought to treat the decision to marry with a serious degree of prudence and apprehension. If you make the decision to marry without framing it like a business decision, you’re not looking after your life properly.

Risk and reward. Assuming you are a man earning more than your would-be wife, these are your principal risks:

  1. Marriage takes away your ability to walk away, which is the nearly-singular source of real power in social and sexual dynamics. Her game is wanting you to not leave despite being able to. As soon as you can’t leave, the game is won. She will become restless and bored, like a cat that chases a toy to no end until it catches it. Hint: cats don’t play for very long with toys they’ve caught.

  2. Marriage has a shotgun clause: at any time your wife can walk away with half of any wealth you build while in the marriage. She doesn’t need a reason. If you out-earn her by a large margin, it really will feel like your wealth, as in singularly yours, but it’s not. In the eyes of the law it’s not your empire – it belongs to both of you. The shotgun clause is used roughly half of the time, mostly by women.

You take the risk of driving on the highway because you need to get to work. You take the risk of getting on a plane because you want to hang out in Rome. You take the risk of skydiving because you want to feel the rush. You take the risk of getting married because __.

The RedPill stance is “don’t marry” but I find that a bit terse. I’ll give my opinion, take it or leave it:

You take the risk of getting married because: you and your SO are going to start something larger than yourselves, either a business or a family, and you fully trust them as a partner in this venture.

  1. You understand the risks of marriage: you have read this post and have a good grasp of your financial reality in relation to hers. Closely related:
  2. You have taken the Red Pill: you understand how attraction works, you have accepted responsibility for your life, you work hard to improve yourself, you love yourself first.
  3. You have a sturdy identity: you know what you’re good at, you know how to get paid for it, you have confidence in yourself, you are an adult.
  4. You have a strong financial footing: if you don’t, start now. Go to /r/PersonalFinance, lurk, branch out, start saving money. Having money saved up will force you to research what to do with it.
  5. You trust your SO as a business partner/father/mother: they have sound decision-making skills, can be trusted with real responsibility, and will make a complimentary contribution to the partnership.
  6. You have amazingly few personal problems with each other. Obviously this is hard to quantify; but the better your relationship is at the outset, the more room you will have to absorb unforeseen differences and conflicts.
  7. Your purpose for marrying is to accomplish something larger than yourselves, such as starting a business or raising a family.
  8. You have enough mental and emotional space to make this decision for yourself: you are not being pressured by outside forces such as your SO, your family, etc. If you are, you have to work to cancel out those voices.

To those who subscribe to the Dual-Income-No-Kids philosophy, you may be tempted to marry. My opinion:

There are financial incentives to marry – but if having kids does not hold marriages together over the long run, that extra 10-20% on your taxes or benefits certainly won’t.

Most things with a SO can be enjoyed without elevating a relationship to marriage. You can frolic in love, enjoy each other’s company, be close with each other’s families, live together, go on vacations together. As an aside, if you’re that serious in your relationship, research common-law marriage in your jurisdiction. You could find yourself on the hook for alimony and other afterglow.

#5 – you will change and she will change

Life expectancy is unprecedentedly high and our society is changing more rapidly than most people can handle. We are bombarded by foreign cultures and philosophies – small seeds are planted in our minds every day. Whole industries are uprooted and replaced every year. It has become impossible to hold a fixed point of view for very long – our reference points shift too rapidly.

As individuals we cannot predict where life will take us. You cannot predict where life will take your SO. You have to assume she will have changed after a year, five years, ten years, etc – and you will have changed as well.

Almost as if to spite us, the longer you are married, the greater the financial consequences of divorce: each year more and more dollars are earned and disposed of communally. More and more of your wealth will be joint wealth. Your lives will be more and more entangled. The stakes of marriage increase over time.

Given the statistics above and the speed of our age, it is a reasonable expectation that “irreconcilable differences” will eventually emerge in any given marriage. It may be mutual, it may be one-sided: the longer it takes the higher the stakes.

Marriage is the ultimate “long game” whereas our societies breed short-term players.

#6 – prenupts do not necessarily mediate the risks

I am not a lawyer.

From the reading I have done however, it is quite clear that prenupts are regularly thrown out in court. This can happen for a simple, practical reason: “her lifestyle has changed since it was written”, or even a wishy-washy, unprovable one: “she signed under duress”.

That is not to say they are useless. It seems you can potentially offset some of the risk of marrying if you have a very good lawyer and draft a proper prenupt under proper circumstances, etc. But you do run the risk of alienating your SO.

I am not a lawyer. If you have prenupt money, you can afford a lawyer.

#7 – weddings, fantasies, and external forces

Look away for a moment and conjure up one of your strongest fantasies: scoring a tournament-winning point, reaching the top of an organization, starting a successful business, whatever it may be.

For the typical girl, weddings are that level of fantasy – not marriages, weddings. She may have other ambitions, but no single other fantasy will hit the spot quite like obsessing about being the centerpiece of a wedding.

On the other end of the spectrum you’ll find the true career woman whose fantasies are related to forging her own path. You’ll likely find that her attitude toward the prospect of marriage is ambivalence, if not wariness. It’s not her high and she probably won’t marry you.

In between these two poles you’ll find the typical urban woman, working a job because that’s what a modern woman does. She has underlying insecurities about the fact that her friends are getting married, and instead of clear fantasies about marriage or career she feels a general uneasiness. She feels the pressure to marry but her convictions are weak and superficial.

I am not trying to define every type of woman. I am simply describing some of the women that I know. The point is:

Women can become obsessed with the idea of becoming married without any sense or care for the long haul.

If this happens with your SO, keep your own decision-making process focused on the long haul and try to bring her into it. Do not marry someone who makes long-term decisions with short-sighted thinking. If she cannot see the horizon, don’t expect her to set out toward it.

#8 – control the pace at which a relationship “climbs the stairs” to marriage

In any LTR of serious length, a couple will play with fantasies about what life might be like at greater levels of responsibility and investment. Some examples:

  • You live separately but joke about how when you live together, x will happen … or x will be unacceptable.
  • One of you says something like “I should learn to x” where x has something to do with the division of labor in a family unit.
  • You add your salaries together and muse about the life you could afford together.
  • You don’t have a pet but you joke about what kind of animal you should get and abuse with love.
  • You talk about baby names.
  • You do a forward-looking look-back, such as “look how far we’ve come … can you imagine x”.

The other major type of “stair-climbing” is the intertwining of lives. Examples:

  • Meeting each other’s families.
  • Deciding to live together.
  • Discovering you share important common ground (values, number of kids, etc).
  • Getting a pet.
  • Taking on each other’s important tasks (helping with a payment for example)

All of these actions and fantasies will push her closer to wanting and expecting marriage. Be mindful of the “stair climbing potential” of your actions. You have every ability to control the pace of your LTR.

My story:

I (26M) found RedPill around the time I met my current girlfriend (25F) almost a year ago. I feel very in control of the controllable parts of being in a relationship. I earn 3x what she does and my field has much more earning potential than hers. Also I have financial assets whereas she does not.

Our relationship has gotten progressively more serious as time has passed. This past weekend she said the following to me:

“I was thinking maybe we would get married two years from now, maybe get engaged next year.”

She had a website she wanted to show me: a location that she thought would be great for a wedding. I was not expecting it.

I said, “Yeah looks nice,” to everything she showed me. And then I said, “Honestly, I haven’t thought about it at all.”

To which she said carefully, “Well, you should.”

I didn’t indulge her and she promptly changed the subject.

I did go on to think about it on my own. This post is a summary of my how I will approach the decision to marry.

I have to assume that out of 90k subscribers, a certain sizable number will eventually get married. It may be as few as 1000, but that means one thousand real lives, one thousand futures. All I hope to do with this post is help frame the decision so that these 1000 or less or more are able to make it wisely when she wants marriage.

Sources for who initiates divorce:

68.9% of divorces initiated by women, Psychology Today, citing several studies

If you read through the Monthly Vital Statistics Reports compiled by the Center for Disease Control, you can find hints of similar statistics (however these are almost two decades):

A particular report from 1990 about the year 1987: 60% of divorces initiated by women, CDC

United Kingdom: 72% of divorces initiated by women, Telegraph

So, fair estimate: two thirds of divorces are initiated by women.

EDIT

Thanks for the gold!


[–][deleted] 122 points123 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

This was a fantastic post WAY better than the usual AWALT because Becca fucked her neighbor for a can of soda and a used condom.

While I understand the automod bot, please can a real mod bother to read this to make sure it doesn't dissapear.

Discourse is the hammer through which any RP should forge his ideas.

[–]Telochi2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree, this was a very well thought out post.

[–]1independentmale65 points66 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Outstanding post. Only one nitpick:

50/50 is only the starting point for negotiation. Women can and do get more, often much more. My ex got about 2/3rds. Even if you do get 50/50, it's more like 30/30/40 with the lawyers taking the 40%.

The value of assets is not always easy to calculate. Consider my home, worth about half a million on paper but realistically I'd be lucky to get $350k in this market. I wanted it, I kept it, but I had to buy it out of the marriage at full price. Lesson learned: Don't get attached to things. If there is a dispute on value - and there will be - insist on selling the item and splitting the proceeds 50/50. That's the fairest way to go about it.

Lawyers can and will drag things out for years at $300+ an hour. This is a fun and lucrative game for them. My ex's attorney promised her 3x my gross net worth and that's what they sued me for. He knows damn well that's not possible to get, but she doesn't and I spent some ten grand on my own lawyer to fight their ridiculous claims as to my financial position. Meanwhile her lawyer billed her a similar amount for his services. The lawyers all win in the end no matter what.

The earlier you settle, the better you are. My dispute mediation session was $750 per hour (two lawyers at $300 each and a mediator at $150) and lasted an entire afternoon. We came down to an unfair agreement that resulted in my writing her a check for an extra $30,000 she should never have been entitled to. It was either that or go to trial and spend another year and $20-40k more on lawyers and maybe still wind up giving her the $30k (or more) anyway. I wrote the check because it was statistically the better option.

When you're done getting screwed over in divorce court, broke and penniless, there is no reprieve because the monthly payments start immediately. Most women get some type of alimony or maintenance payment from their ex husband and if you have kids there's child support on top of that. If you lose your job and can't make the payments, many states will put you in jail. How you're supposed to find another job so you can pay what you owe while you're behind bars is anybody's guess. If you get another job that doesn't pay as much, too bad - reducing your transfer payment is difficult and often outright impossible.

When I added it all up, the 2/3rds she walked with, on top of the attorney's fees and monthly child support checks for several years, this experience cost me more than everything I had at the time of the divorce. And my new girlfriend still has the audacity to suggest I do it all over again.

A man should go into his divorce assuming a complete bankruptcy, full reset and start his life over. Then he won't be disappointed if by some miracle he gets to keep some small fraction of his net worth.

One last comment: It was totally fucking worth it. Every last cent and bit of mental anguish. That's the price of freedom. I should have done it years earlier. If you're miserable in your marriage, GTFO. Every day you wait costs you more.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Fucking vampires. I wonder how they sleep at night.

[–]clearlyathrowaway32316 points17 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They cum in your girl and let the neurochemistry do the rest

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They don't, they sleep during the day. In a coffin.

[–]1User-31f64a4e1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

They sleep soundly. That's part of what the Hampster is for.

[–]1rp_aware15 points16 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Just want to echo something in this comment.

My parents divorced when I was in my early teens. Both of them are very successful professionals. On the whole the divorce was very amicable, very smooth, and not costly (under $10k for both lawyers).

Something my mother did do however was use the valuation of intangible assets to her advantage - not just of their home (which she did do), but also of my father's professional practice. In my father's estimation she was able to walk away with something like ~$500k over and above what would have been a completely fair split.

Valuation is a large determining factor in divorce settlement. Yes you can sell a house, but you can't necessarily sell something like a business.

[–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I can only give points for comments, but your post surely is worth one, so you get it here.

Very elaborate, nicely formated and well-written. Nice work!

♂

[–]Upvote Me!trpbot[M] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Confirmed: 1 point awarded to /u/rp_aware by vandaalen. [History]

[This is an Automated Message]

[–]1rp_aware1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thanks! What does a point do?

EDIT: I figured it out, it's the red [1]. Thanks again.

[–]ex_astris_sci2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're miserable in your marriage, GTFO

I cannot stress the importance of that enough.

[–]Fetish_Goth 8 points8 points [recovered] | Copy Link

You can do better than 50/50 if you're smart. It's like a lesson from "How to Win Friends and Influence People".

“Personally I am very fond of strawberries and cream, but I have found that for some strange reason, fish prefer worms. So when I went fishing, I didn’t think about what I wanted. I thought about what they wanted. I didn't bait the hook with strawberries and cream. Rather, I dangled a worm or grasshopper in front of the fish and said: "Wouldn't you like to have that?"

“When dealing with people, let us remember we are not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudices and motivated by pride and vanity.”

These two seem contradictory, but they're not. Get what you want by making the other person want it too. It helps to frame it in a way that speaks to their pride and vanity. If you're not a shitbag, she is divorcing you for selfish reasons. Use it to your advantage.

[–]switchme8087 points8 points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand how you would go about convincing her to give up less than half, especially when she's paying a high priced lawyer, and that lawyer is telling her the exact opposite.

[–]1independentmale8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

You can't. Once the lawyers enter the scene, it's game over. They pit the couple against one another for fun and profit.

I knew this going into my divorce and convinced my wife that it would be smarter to do it ourselves and keep our money instead of wasting it on lawyers. She agreed and we did an amicable 50/50 split. She took her half and moved out.

Six months later a judge signed the final papers. An hour after that, a lawyer showed up, claimed she was forced to sign the settlement under duress (total bullshit) and undid the entire thing. Her bitch ass best friend who hates me convinced her that I must have tons of money hidden in offshore accounts or some such nonsense. I didn't. She had already cleaned out all of my cash accounts in exchange for my keeping the equity in the house. She had six figures cash, I had a couple grand left.

I had to sell off assets that were rightfully mine in order to pay the legal bills and write her that final check. Lost my bike, some guns and a vehicle.

"Duress" is impossible to defend against. She and I sat in front of a judge on 3 separate occasions over those six months and each time she willingly signed the documents we had put together and told the judge this was what she wanted. After, all she had to say was that I forced her to do it, that she didn't really want to but I convinced her against her better judgment and she didn't have legal representation and didn't know what she was signing. Actually, she didn't even have to say any of that, her lawyer said it all for her and just like that, everything was undone, no proof required.

Joke is on her, she burned through all the money in a couple of years living large while not working and is now struggling to pay rent on her ridiculously expensive apartment. Meanwhile I still have my little palace of a house and my six figure job and am rebuilding my life. I've already replaced most of the money she took.

[–]Fetish_Goth3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Six months later a judge signed the final papers. An hour after that, a lawyer showed up, claimed she was forced to sign the settlement under duress (total bullshit) and undid the entire thing.

Hm...

She and I sat in front of a judge on 3 separate occasions over those six months and each time she willingly signed the documents we had put together and told the judge this was what she wanted.

Sorry bro, but I think you did it to yourself. You both did it without a lawyer? You drafted the papers yourself? Good lord, man. Even if it's amicable, you always have a lawyer draft the papers and handle all the filing and shit! This is a system created by lawyers FOR lawyers. Always get a lawyer to handle your legal shit unless you ARE a lawyer, or just a masochist.

[–]DaegobahDan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

At least get a fucking notary! It's two fucking bucks!

[–]swagrabbit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

IAAL: you got a bad attorney or a bad judge. This is not the standard. An attorney charging you 'tens of thousands' in a divorce is extreme in my experience unless you are very wealthy.

It is extremely unlikely that an asset split will favor someone by that proportion. Honestly, I don't believe your numbers.

This post is not legal advice - if you're about to go through divorce, speak to a few attorneys, listen to what they say, and hire one. Don't rely on the internet, and don't try to talk to every attorney in an area to prevent an ex from using one. It's both stupid and ineffective.

Anyways, I'm not a RP person and I don't agree with many of the RP viewpoints, but I hope that some folks in the community will read this and understand that it paints an inaccurate picture of divorce proceedings.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

This is a very well thought out, superb post. Hit the nail on the head!

My LTR has been hinting at how she want's marriage. Frankly it terrifies me, especially because im from the UK and there are no prenups & I have a very high net worth for my age. Honestly, I am coming to the mindset now that I will never want to be married, no matter what. This shit is scary!

[–]Ovadox11 points12 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're high value in the money department and other areas she'll stick around even if you don't marry. If for some reason she leaves well, you're still high value, won't be hard to find Ms.Next.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think this is true. I had a conversation with her after reading this post, which went something along the lines of:

"You need to know that I am very skeptical of marriage and I may not wan't to ever get married. I'm not saying never, but I don't see any actual upside in it for me. I just thought it would be fair to tell you that, so you are not under any illusions".

To which she pretty much replied with: "Yeah I have dreams and one day wan't to get married, but I love you for who you are (blah blah), don't love you for your money (blah blah) and just wan't to be with you no matter what, whatever that journey entails"

LTR 3 years.

[–]TekkomanKingz6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No prenups allowed in the UK??? WTF.

[–]master_baiter5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

They have post nups where right after the wedding you can get a contract spelling out the asset division like a pre nup. Of course if she backs out of signing it after the marriage contract is official I don't know if there's much recourse.

[–]Endorsed ContributorrebuildingMyself14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Damn honeypot trap. Let's just get married baby then I'll sign a postnup :)

[–]1FunAndFreedom4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I do not let issues fester like that. It isn't healthy for you. If she is hinting at marriage you can dodge the issue and have this on your back for the next 2-3 years, but it won't go away.

Or you can confront it head on, say no to marriage, and she will either A) Leave the relationship and you move to the next girl or B) Capitulates and you put a stake in the marriage issue.

How people can live their life with lingering issues like that astounds me.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. 100%. I was feeling a bit of cognitive dissonance the other day, because I felt like she wanted something I was very sceptical about. I made sure to talk to her about it (see my other reply).

[–]Blake5520 points21 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Thanks for the quality post. Just wondering how you can reconcile all that you've written above with the fact it sounds like you're progressing down the marriage path? Is there anything you've done to protect yourself? (ie in partner choice, asset management)

[–]1rp_aware4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Is there anything you've done to protect yourself?

The only way to protect yourself that I know of is to put your assets in someone else's name (who you damn well trust). But even then, you cannot contribute new income to that fund since half of every dollar you earn as her husband is hers.

Just wondering how you can reconcile all that you've written above with the fact it sounds like you're progressing down the marriage path?

After doing the soul-searching that went into this post...

When I feel personally ready to start a family, I will be open to marrying someone who I trust as an equal partner in that venture. Why marry? The inconvenient truth is, you can't really have kids with a woman and be unattached financially. Family law doesn't allow for that. Maybe she won't get the lump sum in divorce; but whatever she requires the courts will award to her in child support and alimony.

Me personally, I am absolutely nowhere near ready to start a family. I've seen how much my life can change in a short period of time, and I recognize that I have the gift of a long runway. Might that cause my relationship to end at some point? It might. But I'm enjoying my relationship so punting seemed the best option this time.

[–]beginner_4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I could just say marriage is not an option for you. It's like a reversed shit test. Shows her you are not afraid of walking away or her walking away. And then it also test her because if she sees you as beta bucks she will run or else she will suddenly be more affectionate.

[–]Senior ContributorSkorchZang13 points14 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Guy: "She wants marriage. OK, I can prepare, I can build what I need for it, I can do it right and I'll do my best to make it work."

That's the admirable attitude of a quality man. Self-sacrifice, give the woman everything she needs & wants, even if you already assume the worst and are shouldering all of the risk no matter what you do.

A scumbag however would ask a different question: "She wants marriage. OK. What's in it for me?" She says Marriage2.0 is building something that's greater than us both? Bitch, please!

[–]aptway13 points14 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Are you implying that the "quality man" is a noble fool then, or what?

[–]Senior ContributorSkorchZang12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's better to leave such things unspecified, that way we're helping the chance reader get used to spotting on their own the usurous ulteriour motives that are hiding behind the chest-swelling praise usually given out to men in these situations.

[–]Endorsed ContributorrebuildingMyself6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Society under marriage 1.0 rewarded the quality man's actions. She wanted marriage and it was just as much her responsibility as his not to fuck it up.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's hard to come to any other conclusion from a green-eyeshades perspective. You have to bring in children and religion for marriage to make any kind of sense for a man.

[–]CreateTheFuture0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit.

Guy: "She wants marriage. No."

That's the admirable attitude of a quality man.

[–]1FunAndFreedom0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Marriage makes no sense and provides no benefit to the man. The only reason I can see for marriage are visa issues and political reasons. Outside of those areas (and be really careful there) marriage needs to be avoided.

[–]beginner_0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

There are enough women why would you choose one that will result in visa issues?

[–]1FunAndFreedom-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Visa issues are unavoidable if you aren't living in America regularly. If you end up with a European girl you can get dual citizenship and eventual access to their countries social services.

It an example of a benefit to marriage, of course one that really needs to be carefully weighed against the cost.

[–]aptway36 points37 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Anything that takes away your power to walk away, takes away your power.

This is the most important argument against Marriage. It changes the dynamic completely in a way that is very unpredictable and difficult to account for. With no built-in dread of you being able to walk away scot-free, Marriage 2.0 becomes a very bad prospect for men indeed.

[–]Adolf_ghandi13 points14 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

A question that always bothers me when I read this stuff:

If both of you work and you feel it is ending. Can you just quit your job, file divorce a week later and sue HER for alimony?

[–]kranos3325 points26 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

No, it is "potential" earnings. If you have been making 120k in average for your last three years, that's what your potential earning is.

You loose your job, your are fucked. You become slave of the alimony and child support payments.

[–]Adolf_ghandi10 points11 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Wtf.....

Thank you for the fast answer.

[–][deleted] 20 points20 points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]awfukbye0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

There is plenty of assholes on this earth and a good percentage will still have kids we will last. Lol

[–]Elodrian3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

That's not the point of what he's saying. It's not a "survival of the species" question. The problem is that we have created a set of laws that set the good of the individual at odds with the good of the species. When laws create natural dischord of this type, it signals something is wrong with the laws.

[–]copralalic4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No, but if you were become disabled somehow prior to the divorce, it would reduce your future earnings. I saw a guy at a health clinic once who "recovered" from schizophrenia. Crazy, I know. Defrauding Social Services (or whoever pays disability payments) is a crime, and I would never advocate a crime, but if no disability papers were filed then no crime would have been committed. wink-wink

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The legal term is "imputed income", or "I know you can make $x so I'm going to set your support based on $x."

A lot of guys think "Well, if I get divorced I'll open a dive shop and kind of take it easy. I won't make a lot of money, but who cares? She's taking half of it anyway." Which would be a perfectly reasonable strategy, but the judge will base his support payments on what he made at that high stress corporate job. So it's back to the cubicle.

[–]1independentmale2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's basically indentured servitude.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much, yeah, though the details vary depending on the state.

[–]jackbauer6342 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Dalrock summarizes nicely:

"You can see this at the micro level with a man whose wife goes Jenny Erikson on him. The courts understand that throwing a man out of the home and taking away his children naturally reduces the man’s normal incentive to work to support his family. How could it not? It isn’t that most men in this situation will stand by and watch their children starve, but they won’t be motivated to produce quite as much. You can confiscate a percentage of his income in the form of child support, but he no longer has the incentive to fight his way quite so high up our progressive tax structure. This is why the courts have to assign the man an income quota he has to meet, Soviet style. Imputation of income isn’t incidental to the child support family model; it is essential to the function of the model. Note that this doesn’t mean the courts have to formally calculate an income quota for each man who ends up in the new child support family structure; in most cases the man has already assigned himself a quota based on past production. All the family courts need to do in most cases is make sure he doesn’t fall below this quota."

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon34 points35 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

To which she said carefully, “Well, you should.”

We all know that's a threat to leave. Whether she'll make good on that threat I don't know, but that's the implication.

Further implication: this is what she wants, therefore it is in her best interests. Therefore consider very very carefully if it is in yours.

Your post is wary but positive towards marriage, but I don't get it. Why bother? You can have kids without being married. The only reason for marriage is a female-only insurance policy at your expense.

[–]cntthnko19 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The most a man should offer is the wedding/party itself, never actually make it a legal marriage. Why does that shit even exist? Marriage is between two people, what the fuck is up with all the other nonsense? From the government dipping their hands in to the religious ceremonies to the massive parties, it takes away from what marriage means. An agreement to allocate certain amount of time for eachother, which can be just called a relationship at that point.

That last sentence you said... Perfect.

[–]aptway36 points37 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

She wants marriage.

Incorrect. She wants wedding.

[–]CryptoManbeard5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Girls want a wedding yes, but primarily they are looking for security. They want to be taken care of. It's genetic...

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly.

She wants the big wedding she was told she deserved growing up. She wants the new excitement and to show her single friends her "hubby", a.k.a the cock she took off the market.

[–]1rp_aware1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Your post is wary but positive towards marriage, but I don't get it. Why bother? You can have kids without being married.

Another person asked something similar. The answer:

You can't really have kids with a woman and be unattached financially. Family law doesn't allow for that. Maybe she won't get the lump sum in divorce; but whatever she requires the courts will award to her in child support and alimony.

[–]beginner_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can't really have kids with a woman and be unattached financially. Family law doesn't allow for that. Maybe she won't get the lump sum in divorce; but whatever she requires the courts will award to her in child support and alimony.

true but they can't give her half your wealth and half of your pension fund. All in all you will be off much better than in a real divorce. And due to that the chances of her acting up are a lot smaller already. marriage is the ticket for her to slack and get fat.

[–]1independentmale0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can't really have kids with a woman and be unattached financially.

Broke people do it all the time. They knock a bitch up and then peace out and there are few if any repercussions. I know a fool who pays $25 a month in child support out of his part time fast food job. You can't get blood from a turnip.

At least get a prenup and keep your finances separate.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba19 points20 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

FYI, guys, we all know that about 50% of marriages end in divorce. That pctg. goes up the lower the socio-economic strata you look at, and goes down the higher you go in socio-economic strata. In fact, when both partners have bachelor's degrees, the probability of divorce goes down to about 10%, HOWEVER, the probability of the divorce being initiated by the wife goes up to 90%. Other factors increasing the likely hood of wife-initiated divorce are age (younger=higher) and geography (urban=higher). The biggest factor indicating probability of divorce is the wife's ability to re-marry - better. Surprise, surprise - hypergamy!!

[–]seeing-red-1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't forget the strong positive correlation between her past partner count and chance of divorce.

[–]1FunAndFreedom0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post. Another thing to consider is how many of those marriages that don't end in divorce are terrible for the man. I would imagine 80% or more.

[–]1Padre559 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Would be a good time for the Morpheous/Matrix meme to be inserted.

THIS is the reality of State "marriage" today, when one considers the "benefit" of nothing and the risk of everything the stupid trap becomes apparent.

Literally, aside from procreation, marriage is pretty much a lose/lose for men, and it only grows worse over time.

[–]CreateTheFuture8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

aside from procreation, marriage is pretty much a lose/lose for men

That heinous myth cannot die fast enough. Think for a second. How does you being married benefit your children at all? My guess is you would say "it provides a stable household". The fuck it does. You can have a happy, stable, "normal" family without fucking yourself with a legal contract.

The next objection would be "what about common law marriages?". What about them? They are beside the point. Don't fucking voluntarily sign your life away, morons. It WILL happen to you. You're not special. You're just a statistic like every other organism ever to exist.

[–]2RedPillSafe9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Marriage 2.0 gives an enormous advantage to women.

So it makes sense that guys don't want to marry and women do and that we are seeing more women "take control" of deciding when to marry.

Red Pill does not advise you to get married. Period.

If you fold under the pressure to marry then you will fold once married.

Your wedding will be your grave.

[–]b0jack_horseman7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey OP you should sleep well at night, knowing fully well that you've probably saved a few lives with this post :)

[–]MGTOW_player43 points44 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Any girl who is a true NAWALT will never try to shame or goad you into marriage.

Never do it. If she demands a ring, run! AWALT.

[–]CreateTheFuture27 points28 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I hope everyone sees the irony in your use of the term "true NAWALT". It's the same as the "real unicorn" that gets mentioned around here far too often.

A reminder to the new guys, especially: You know why we use the word "unicorn", specifically, and have a standard notation for the phrase "All Women Are Like That"? Because unicorns don't exist and all women are like that.

Don't forget. Don't fool yourself. You haven't found the exception. You won't. Direct your life with those truths in mind.

[–]copralalic12 points13 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Because unicorns don't exist

Yes they do, they just aren't what we expect. http://media.tumblr.com/b93bdbdaeeac1f410d1583f85becaef5/tumblr_inline_n4namhX2wO1rlded0.jpg

They are attracted to virgins, though (the only kind of guy they can reliably get).

[–]MGTOW_player14 points15 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes. That unicorn will take off that fake head piece after it has you bound by chains. Happens every time.

[–]Lu_the_Mad4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Eventually the girl will find some guy she is more attracted to than she is to you, and try and fuck that guy.

At that point she will start inventing reasons to hate you.

Anyway.

People who don't have things are usually bad with money. Thats why they don't have things.

A lot of people get married because the initial lust is fading or has faded and they like the normality of their current life, so they try and do something to stay together.

Ask her to sit down with you and plan out her future and what she will do to make herself a more successful and more valuable.

Also ask her that if she is serious would she be willing to put away a percentage of her income in a savings account to help pay for any potential wedding related things that might come up. Say 20%. So you wont start off your new life together in debt.

Hint: She probably wont. Or she will, and then she will spend all that money within a few months on herself.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with marriage if done right. If you get someone who has a good career, makes good money, does not want to fuck your friends and is only a little crazy and that you can stand the sight of naked, hey, sure, do what you will. One day you are going to want a son, else you will have no legacy. Going hunting with your dog is fun, but one day you might want a little you and his dog to come with too. And for that you need a wife.

But rushing into some shit because a girl wants to get married is silly.

[–]Hideydid1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I want to meet all these college educated virgins who will have kids with you without marriage.

[–]Niketi3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's objectively foolish for a man to get married in this day and age. There is no benefit to it, only risk. I don't understand why any man would want to surrender that kind of power over himself to a woman. It seems like the most "beta" move you could possibly make.

[–]whiskeydick20159 points10 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why don't we start marrying average girls that are smart and rich? Some kissing here and there. Sex every few months while you're spinning plates behind her back as a stay at home dad.. Buy into that whole true love shit and overwhelm her with beta qualities. Divorce a few years later after being constantly beta (killing all attraction) and get your own benefit plan for a divorce that she initiates because you're too beta for her.

[–]1KyfhoMyoba1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Smart AND rich? Jesus H Christ! Talk about looking for unicorns ...

[–]Stevoman 3 points3 points [recovered] | Copy Link

In divorce, any increase in property that occurs after the date of marriage is split 50/50. This includes all income … any dollar saved, any asset purchased with dollars earned after the date of marriage, all investment income and capital gains, even on assets that were brought into the marriage. All increase of any kind belongs to both spouses equally.

Simplifying a bit, this is what happens to property in a divorce: you calculate your joint net worth, each of you keeps anything you brought into the marriage – valued based on what it was worth when you got married, the lawyers take theirs, and the rest is split 50/50.

The matrimonial home is treated differently. In spite of whoever owns it, brought it into the marriage, or made the payments – any equity in it is split 50/50.

What you just rattled off are the laws for what is called a "community property" state. Community property is in fact a rule adopted by a minority of states. Community property laws are often criticized because they remove all the touchy-feely parts of the marital agreement and reduce it to a "business deal" where the proceeds are divided according to a formula.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_property

Community property is the best-case scenario you can hope for in achieving a fair division of a martial estate. Other states give the courts MUCH more flexibility in dividing things how they wish, sometimes including taking things a spouse brought to the marriage.

[–]1independentmale1 point2 points [recovered] (0 children) | Copy Link

I live in a community property state and she still got 2/3rds out the door. Your largest assets (property, businesses) are ripe for negotiation as to their true value and you can bet your ass her lawyers will overvalue them to the point of ridiculousness. She'll get half of a number that's far higher than you could ever sell it all for.

[–]jackbauer6341 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My ex-ex-brother-in-law (ex-husband of my ex-wife's sister) was divorced in a community property state. The ex-wife received about 65% of the assets, because he earned more and the 50/50 split was looking forward--setting both parties up for an equal lifestyle in the future. Simplified: Woman received more.

[–]Burner17013 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Definitely listen to everything you read here, but also remember that TRP is not made up of happily married men. There are happily married men out there, I'm one of them. Some marriages are great, not the statistical majority, but some and while the risks are great so are the rewards. If she's a nice, intelligent, girl, if her parents are still together, if she isn't a heavy drinker or drug user, if you want kids well brought up, and if you genuinely believe she values and respects you, then seriously consider marrying her. If not, then make a decision and end the relationship. If she wants marriage and you aren't going to marry her then you should let her find someone else while she's still young.

[–]Niketi10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It isn't so much an issue of being happily married. You can maintain a perfect relationship, but your wife still has that gun in her purse. A gun she could shoot you with on a whim at any moment. That's the problem. The balance of power in a marriage is overwhelmingly tilted in favour of women. You're completely at her mercy, trusting her not to fundamentally ruin you. You have nothing to balance the scale or to protect yourself. Only her word.

This kind of power imbalance is not how marriages should be run, but this is what feminism has given women. I for one simply refuse to give someone else that kind of power over me - no matter how perfect they are in my eyes.

[–]1independentmale5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What rewards? What do you get out of a wife that you can't out of a long term girlfriend?

I've asked many people this question and nobody can give me a straight answer. Please, do tell, what are the benefits of marriage to the man?

[–]circlhat1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What keeps your marriage happy? Its rare to find a happy marriage that last longer than 2 years. Could you write something up how to run a home?

I know it sounds silly but I don't understand how to make it work without being treated like crap

my current girlfriend did a 180 I won't go into details because I already know what to do, but all it involves is moving on, keep lifting and finding a better mate.

I been doing this for a while and rack up over 200+ women at this point I think its me, but every damn time I try to give them the benefit of the doubt they treat me like a piece of shit and slowly but surely they cheat on me with a alpha.

[–]bustanutmeow0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Have you gone back and had a good hard look at yourself and see what you changed?

You need to find what you did differently and erase that from your traits.

[–]YaBoiTibzz2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Seems like the takeaway, as usual, is that marriage is more or less always a bad idea for males. If you can somehow be pretty fucking damn sure that your girl won't ever want a divorce, even decades down the road, then it's probably great. But in reality there's just no way to be sure of that. As this post so wisely pointed out people change over time. The woman you married might have never divorced you, but it may be a totally different woman when you've been married for 20 years, one who does consider divorce a good idea.

It's kind of sad to read all this because I know it means that I can never have kids. Because it is more or less guaranteed that the woman will get custody in the event of a divorce, and that will result in child support payments despite me not being able to live with the kids I am supporting, it is far too much of a risk. I am not willing to put myself in danger of being fucked over that badly. It's a shame to think that starting a family is just a pipe dream in this society, but oh well.

[–]bad_pattern31 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

why not change your strategy to fucking w/o much concern to whether you'll impregnate her or not

and disappear if she does get pregnant

rinse and repeat

soon you'll have a large family all over the country. maybe the world

let the taxes other idiots pay support your children

and make sure you don't have much of an income officially in case a baby-mama does track you down

it's the male mating strategy for the progressive, egalitarian world

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

As much as I'd like to raise my genetic legacy myself, it might have to come to this one day...

[–]H42 2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy Link

A single man can pay a fertility clinic to create a kid. Once done, the kid has only one parent on its birth certificate, the man.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon0 points1 point [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

To anyone else reading this: please google "fertility clinic" and make up your own mind whether this is fact or trolling.

[–]H42 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

This is fact. I've posted about it here many times. California law is quite favorable to single men using fertility clinics to create a kid with only one name on the title.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon-2 points-1 points [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Sperm donors do not get their name on the child's birth certificate and women do not give birth to men's children for a fee.

If you believe otherwise, include links or other references.

[–]H42 3 points3 points [recovered] | Copy Link

From: https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%22single+man%22+%22fertility+clinic%22+california

"Surrogacy laws by country" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrogacy_laws_by_country#California "California is known to be a surrogacy friendly state. It permits commercial surrogacy, regularly enforces gestational surrogacy contracts, and makes it possible for all intended parents, regardless of marital status or sexual orientation, to establish their legal parentage prior to the birth and without adoption proceedings (pre-birth orders)"

"More single men using surrogates to have kids" http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/column-one/04-09-07-single-men-and-surrogates.htm

"California Fertility Partners" http://californiafertilitypartners.com/fertility-blog/surrogacy/egg-donation-surrogacy-for-the-lgbt-community-what-gay-men-lesbians-should-know/

"agency 4 surrogacy solutions | Surrogacy Agency | Encino, California, USA" http://www.findsurrogatemother.com/surrogacy-agencies/agency-4-surrogacy-solutions-encino-california-usa_1410

"21st-Century Babies - Building a Baby, With Few Ground Rules" http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/us/13surrogacy.html?pagewanted=all

http://www.jackiegortonnurseattorney.com/surrogatefaq.htm

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon-1 points0 points [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Not a single single link to "a fertility clinic to create a kid. Once done, the kid has only one parent on its birth certificate, the man."

We all know about surrogacy. The fertility clinic as you described does not exist. If it does, find a link to it.

[–]TRP Vanguardss_camaro2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You add your salaries together and muse about the life you could afford together.

This is just awfully dumb, regardless of what stage the relationshit has progressed to.

[–]trpintrper 3 points3 points [recovered] | Copy Link

If you are married now evaluate your marriage. And do it fast. I got out of my marriage a year and a half in. The hamster couldn't get anything out if me. Usually alimony only sets in if you have been married for a considerable amount of time. My lawyer said over 7 years. Child support is different though. Here are some tips. Do not, I repeat. DO NOT let her take your child away from you. DO NOT leave your house, even if she demands you leave. DO NOT abuse in any sense anyone involved in this divorce such as kids and soon to be ex. DO keep a daily journal. DO record conversations, texts, emails, and anything that she might try and use against you. DO fight for your rights. DO HOLD YOUR FRAME ESPECIALLY HERE. DO NOT GIVE UP. Make sure to get a good lawyer and try to get everything done and squared away before your opposition gets a chance to do anything.

[–]612magxl1 point2 points [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Holy Shit! Your post just spoke directly to me. I'm exactly 1.5 years into my marriage and I'm soooooo miserable (30yoM, wife is 31). I'm so scared of going through a divorce and losing all my assets I've worked for before I met her. Married Aug 2013, house purchased July 2014, child birth Oct 2014, we've had sex a total of 20x from our engagement of Dec 2012. She lost all desire and now all I can see is how bad I'm gonna be fucked going through divorce. What state are you in? I'm in MN and have just started looking at my options to separate.

[–]trpintrper 2 points2 points [recovered] | Copy Link

If you want out and that is your final decision, get a lawyer asap. Do it behind her back and serve her the papers first. Whoever leads the divorce has the upper hand from what I experienced. Utah is the state I was married in.

[–]612magxl0 points1 point [recovered] (0 children) | Copy Link

That's what I've heard from others too, thanks for the heads up.

[–]WeAreGlidingNow1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Marriage redistributes...

I like this. As men, we can use cold, rational logic. When my marriage was starting to fail (or, from my wife's perspective, long AFTER it had failed, and her lawyer needed more time to build her case), I began using basic economics to evaluate the situation. It helps. Things like motive, incentive, supply, demand, cost/benefit, "walk-away" price, and most critically, perverse incentives.

I tell ya, you have to set emotion aside for this. Marriage is no time for love.

[–]TekkomanKingz1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Prenupts don't mitigate the risk if you are Donald Trump and marry Roberta the cleaning lady.

Marry your equal.

[–]strangelyversatile1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

My bro is engaged to a crazy bitch, she was awesome when they met - almost has me fooled. Now she's being an entitled whore and demanding our family pay for HER wedding cause hers is too poor and that's not her fault. She has him locked down for beta fuckdom. Major intervention is needed but not sure he van handle The Pill. anyone know any legit looking articles/books I could show him?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't think you can help him beyond personal advice. A man entangled within the charms of a ruinous woman is a man long far gone.

[–]strangelyversatile1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Appreciate you're view man, I've talked to him loads , I just don't want to see his life ruined if I can help it..

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I know the feeling. Best you can do is be there for him when it all crumbles. Not all are wise enough to take counsel in their youth. Let the world teach him a harsh lesson, then.

Blessings to your family and may he come to reason sooner rather than later.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I never give much thought to marriage or divorce statistics.

Instead I look at my married friends and they all look miserable.

[–]1rp_aware1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The two are related of course.

I look at my married friends and they all look miserable.

That is a statistic, and a correlated one: chances are that any given marriage described with the word miserable will end in divorce.

[–]DaegobahDan1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

it is quite clear that prenupts are regularly thrown out in court

Yeah, that's not really true. Pre-nups that are thrown out are done so because either:

A.) The law in that jurisdiction doesn't allow for pre-nups to be considered, or

B.) The pre-nup tries to enforce a provision that is not allowed by law.

In any other case, the pre-nup is a binding legal contract and must be respected. It's extremely rare for a prenup to be thrown out when A & B don't apply.

[–]1rp_aware0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two other ways that I have heard:

  • if she can substantiate that she signed under duress
  • if the couple's lifestyle has changed materially from what it was when the prenupt was signed (man becomes a business genius and it rains gold and Bentleys)

[–]lukins0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've never heard of the second type. Can you provide a link to an example?

[–]DaegobahDan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The first one is easy enough to combat as long as you involve an actual lawyer in the process.

The second one CAN happen, but it doesn't that often. Mostly because rags to riches stories like that are very rare to begin with.

[–]beginner_1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

“Well, you should.”

It's also an opportunity to hold frame. Let's be honest how many men actually want to marry and how many of them are high-value? Wanting to marry and bind yourself to a women is already a sign of weakness or lower value. So you just say you have no interest in marriage and you will never marry. No discussion needed. These are your terms.

She will either leave meaning you dodged a bullet or you get a power shift in your direction. You can't really loose, only if you agree to marry.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]1rp_aware1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Separate accounts do not afford any protection. Every dollar you contribute to "your" account is half-hers, even if you earned it. Every dollar earned (interest, gains, etc) on "your" account is half-hers, even though it's your account..

"Your" account will be audited during the divorce process and her share will go to her.

[–]1independentmale1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Separate accounts do not afford any protection.

Not true.

Yes, she will be entitled to any money added to that account. However, you will pay her that money on your terms, only after a judge orders it so. She cannot touch it until then.

What's the first thing a smart woman does when she's done with her marriage? She cleans out the joint accounts. It's happened to a bunch of my friends & coworkers. One guy's wife re-opened a HELOC (home equity line of credit) that he had paid off and closed months earlier. She maxed it out, walked with the cash and he's still paying on it because its attached to his home. Apparently the fine print allowed the loan to be re-opened within six months and since they were both on it, either party can open it. She also broke into his house after moving out, pushed his cheap safe out a second story window and took everything in it. He found it cracked open on the driveway when he got home from work. He called the cops but they told him since it was still legally her house (divorce wasn't final) there was nothing they could do.

I've never seen a women held accountable for cleaning out accounts. The money is legally hers if her name is on it. By the time you get in front of a judge it's long gone.

[–]1rp_aware2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's a really good point.

Reading through your anecdotes and others in this thread really brings it home that the person opposite you at the altar can branch into a million different potential people over time.

[–]1R_E_D_10 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love your post and the thinking behind it. But this woman is not marriage material. If she truly prizes a future together she doesn't need to drag you into it.

[–]Jonathan_Rambo0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good stuff bro, you're even younger than me so I'm stung that much more by the potency of your words

[–]lickguide0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Can someone tell me how this works with de facto relationships? I'm from Australia so any local info would be appreciated.

[–]carrgo0011 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Regarding the breakup of a de facto relationship in Australia, they are considered almost exactly the same as marriage. There are some limitations (e.g. alimony, or spousal maintenance as it's called here, can be reduced or not apply) but generally they are handled similarly. Asset allocation can be taken to the family courts if there is a dispute. However, if done correctly, prenups (officially called binding financial agreements) are completely enforceable and limit the court's ability to divide assets. For more information see http://www.familyrelationships.gov.au/BrochuresandPublications/Pages/propertydivisionwhendefactorelationshipsbreakdown.aspx

[–]Bortasz0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I just want add this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIV0zSqaysU

String along method.

[–]orchidwaterfall0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Good post. So, how are you going to handle the situation you're in? Walk away?(hope so)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

5 is something I stick to very lucidly. I don't want to make any guarantees like marriage because it is a flimsy and transparent proposal nowadays.

My sister, who is in her final semester of college, has a girlfriend she plans to marry in four years, and I worry about how well this marriage will hold up.

[–]Deaddpooll0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

The only girl worth marrying a top guy is an 18-22 yr gorgeous virgin raised in a reasonably conservative culture.

That already disqualifies 90% of American girls.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Where are these 10% hiding? :)

[–]Hideydid0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

In more rural and conservative areas of the country. The girls who move to New York or Southern CA will quickly join the 90%.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think id rather face the death penalty for what I would do to my wife( if I had one)if she ever tried to rob half of my life's worth (or more) just because she felt like it. This is why the concept of marriage is so unappealing to men, we really don't get shit out of Marriage and for this reason I will never even consider marrying regardless of how much we click.

[–]Mire_Lurker-4 points-3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand the offshoot of TRP who are against getting married. It's fine as long as you do it on your terms and the woman is of quality. She should be at least 10 years younger than you. Pure (very important) and of good breeding stocks.

I want to have a soccer team of kids you can't do that without "sealing the deal" so to speak.

[–]LongtimeRPLurker4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

There's no "your terms". There's only the government terms.

[–]Clemence9990 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Why not? Sign a parenting plan.

[–]Mire_Lurker-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I want a traditional family unit. By my constants there is only a 10% chance of the marriage failing and with the amount of kids she'll be having it's pretty much a "sure thing" if you can believe it.

[–]TrpFAGGOT-5 points-4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is the red pill not blue pill 👓

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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