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This study sent out a survey to practising psychologists, asking them to look at a list of 100 behaviours and decide whether they count as psychologically abusive or not. One version of the survey indicated that the actions were done by a man to his wife, and the other version indicated that they were done by a woman to her husband.

For almost half behaviours on the list (43 of the 100), the gender of the abuser had a significant effect on how likely the behaviour was to be seen as abusive. Of these, all but one involved men being more likely to be seen as abusive.

Results indicated that psychologists, irrespective of demographics, rated the husband’s behaviour as more likely to be psychologically abusive and more severe in nature than the wife’s use of the same actions.

Some of the results (first percentage is how many said "yes" to abusive, second is "maybe", third is "no"):

Potentially abusive behaviour Husband→Wife (Y-M-N) Wife→Husband (Y-M-N)
Made decisions about spouse's appearance 63% - 32% - 5% 13% - 56% - 31%
Would not let spouse go anywhere without him/her 88% - 10% - 2% 66% - 27% - 7%
Decided what spouse could eat 78% - 18% - 4% 37% - 43% - 20%
Kept spouse from self-improvement activities 71% - 25% - 4% 49% - 40% - 11%
Monitored spouse to know where s/he was 66% - 27% - 7% 35% - 45% - 20%
Checked spouse's belongings to confirm suspicion 61% - 33% - 6% 31% - 53% - 16%
Chose spouse's friends 77% - 20% - 3% 42% - 42% - 16%

Here's a link to the study. It's called "Psychologists' judgments of psychologically aggressive actions when perpetrated by a husband versus a wife".

So my question for BPers, RPers, and everybody in between and on the outside: what do you make of these results? How do they compare with your own experiences and observations? What are the implications for relationships and attitudes to gender?


[–]PrimePussyOverRancidRP31 points32 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Something related could be an older woman with a younger guy not getting as much flack as an older man with a younger girl.

Women are wonderful effect is the cause of all this, IMO.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Women are wonderful effect is the cause of all this, IMO.

They ran the study by sending the Husband > Wife survey out first, then waited about a year and sent the Wife > Husband survey. From the paper:

...several incomplete surveys returned with comments. These few participants were reluctant to consider whether behaviors enacted by a woman were abusive because they perceived that women lacked the requisite power to effectively enact psychologically abusive behaviors and they could not comprehend that females could coerce male partners into submission using only psychological tactics.

There is a measurable number of mental health professionals out there who do not believe that a woman can abuse a man.

This accords with my personal experience.

[–]Gnometard4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was there, until my ex punched me in front of 4 police officers. I'm still sexist for pointing out that I was minutes from jail had she not done that. YAY!!

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well it's not like "mental health" is an exact science.

Plenty of space left for personal agendas and bias.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

Sadly our culture is like that since there is a lot of awareness of male on female abuse than the opposite.

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

White sheep also eat a lot more than black sheep.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Stuff like this is the reason TRP exists. Thanks for posting!

[–]mrgoditselfProffesor Jigsaw0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

right mindset for a guy in reality is not sexist or abusive. But because you are not bending your back for a woman- you will viewed as an asshole, abusive because you are expected by society to do so.

What i mentioned before, this article just proves that.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This seems to be in line with our current culture of treating masculinity in men as "abusive" while treating the same traits in women as "empowering".

Thus raising a generation of androgynous guys who need a website to tell them what it means to be a man.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

63% of people think it's abusive for a man to make a decision about his wife's appearance? Jesus, people would blow a gasket if they knew the things I do day to day.

[–]GayLubeOilTrue Red Pill8 points9 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

They aren't people they are cattle. Once you have forfeited your consciousness you are no longer human you are cattle. Anyone who blindly repeats the mantras of the sociopolitical establishment has forfeitured their human exceptionalism and is no different than an animal. There is nothing wrong with using cattle to put steaks on the table. This is my view on morality. :)

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

My view on morality is that even if there was something unquestionably wrong with using people to put steaks on the table, I wouldn't give a fuck.

[–]DaThrowaway808<('.'<) (>'.')>2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

My view on morality is that even if there was something unquestionably wrong with using people as steaks on the table, I wouldn't give a fuck.

Sleepy reading confirms CIS is a cannibal

[–]ProtoPillRed Before Red5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol, Cis. I was thinking the same exact thing.

[–]GayLubeOilTrue Red Pill14 points15 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The Social Sciences are dominated by Progressives. You're chances of getting a conservative psychology professor are really low. So after four years of undergrad where at least half of your classes are going to be with progressives in social sciences and then an additional five years in a PHD program surrounded by liberals chances are your views are going to be very liberal.

In fact it would probably be very difficult for a conservative to get through a psychology program without flying under the radar. Just saying stuff like "I think IQ is heavily determined by genetics" could get you seriously fucked also if you dont have liberal orthadox views on women your gunna get raped. Saying "women are more risk averse then men" will get you gang raped by your department.

So yea psychologist programs produce a lot of progressive pussy worshiping liberal betas, is anyone surprised?

[–]Gnometard3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I was "politely blacklisted" from a circle of friends because I pointed out that genetics and biology are the major factors in IQ and other aptitudes. Apparently, Einstein was simply conditioned to be a genius.

[–]GaiusScaevolusMod TRP/AskTRP/BaM8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Halo effect in action.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's been almost 24 hrs since this was posted.

The lack of empathy from the other side is so loud it's deafening.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It would be sad if it surprised me in the least. It doesn't. That's why we need TRP.

[–]chazzALB37yo Purple Perma-Virgin3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pussy Pass QED

[–]DenswendThe Swiss Army Knife of Hate6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Let me just say it :

All forms of male oppression is not in any way related to feminism. It is a remnant of traditional gender roles which are abusive to women and men - they dehumanize women by placing them in can-do-no-wrong category and dehumanize men by placing them in the provider role.

Feminism seeks to combat traditional gender roles by empowering both men and women. In a perfectly feminist world - there will be no traditional gender roles and therefore women will be held to the same standards as men, since equality is what feminism really wants.


Of course, this kind of reasoning is, while perfectly sane and logical, unbacked by empirical observations. If you think of feminism not as ideology backed by equality, but by movement for the interests of women which it is, you will even understand why certain traditional gender roles are sacked faster and with more intent than others. Merriam-Webster has both definitions which are contradictory if you think about them.

Namely, women fought for the right to vote under the guise of equality, but in the time of world wars - didn't follow equality to the battlefield. No you see, the culture just wasn't ready for women soldiers. But it was ready for women's suffrage. How convenient. Or for example, Duluth model and VAWA.

Feminism is a lot like Inquisition, the Devil being Patriarchy. Inquisition may torture you, and maim you, but see, Inquisition is not "evil", since by definition "evil" is caused by the Devil! So you should give more power to the Inquisition so that your torture, as necessary as it is, stops! Never does it cross the mind of common believer that the Devil hides best behind a smiling face of zealous and self-righteous preacher.

[–]lolobviouslyRed Pill-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wouldnt say it to many people in real life, but almost EVERYTHING is caused by men. Including male oppression.

[–][deleted] 3 points3 points | Copy Link

[permanently deleted]

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains3 points4 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Interesting. I'm fairly good friends with a few psychologists, so I'm gonna poke at them to get their thoughts.

Unfortunately, the idea that women can commit DV is not well accepted. It's a definite failing of our system, and one that I'd to see addressed. I hate the idea that our culture believes that men cannot be abused or raped.

Glancing over just the numbers in the study, it's pretty obvious that it's a codification of gender norms - for instance, a woman can control food (meal planning), her failures towards children are considered more severe, etc. Even the "adopting a threatening demeanor" indicates the gender bias - a woman can't be threatening, of course!

[–]max_peenorCertified TRP Shitlord13 points14 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Glancing over just the numbers in the study, it's pretty obvious that it's a codification of gender norms

So, the patriarchy again, right?

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

I'm fairly confident I mentioned nothing about the patriarchy. Thank you for making a strawman of my position.

My point is, there are behaviors that are considered more appropriate coming from either men or women. Hell, half of TRP is all about that concept. This study seems to indicate that those beliefs are institutionalized in psychology - or that the institution has been unable to get them out. It's very interesting, because generally psychologists are regarded as not falling into those traps, so the fact that they are just as susceptible as the rest of us does a lot to dispel that perception.

The idea of men not being able to be abused is fairly well-entrenched. Let's face it, a woman harassing her husband, calling him useless... That's considered to be okay, for some bizarre reason. It's obviously not. It's one of those things I end up spending a day on when I'm training my students, since it's easy to normalize that behavior.

[–]max_peenorCertified TRP Shitlord2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

? I'm fairly confident I mentioned nothing about the patriarchy. Thank you for making a strawman of my position

Sorry, not going to apologize for this one. If you are going to chant the chant, you are going to get associated with them.

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Are you saying gender norms don't exist?

[–]max_peenorCertified TRP Shitlord2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm saying your delivery tosses you into a camp.

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, I've been called worse things by better people.

[–]alcockell10 points11 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Blame Ellen Pence and 40 years of Duluth for that one.

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

We have a DV court here, and it technically uses the Duluth model. The head of the program refers to it as "hippity dippity bullshit" though. Seems a lot of people feel that way about it.

[–]wazzup987Blue pill, you can beat me black & blue for it later[🍰] 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The correlation between feminism and hippy dippy bullshit is too damn high

[–]Gnometard2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I was nearly in jail for DV because I called the cops to remove my belligerently drunk (and newly EX) girlfriend from my apartment building. They were about to put me in cuffs when she punched me in the face.

[–]LeaneGenovaBreaker of (comment) Chains1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, cops aren't exactly known for their nuance. They tend to arrest whoever they think is more of a threat. Usually, that's the guy.

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

It's all about social norms and expectations. When you think of a woman dictating what a man should wear, what do you think? A wife straightening her husband's tie before he leaves for work or deep sixing the ratty old jumper with holes in the elbows and buying him a new one. When you envision a man dictating what a woman should wear, what pops into your head? Julia Roberts being told by Patrick Bergin that she has to wear the backless dress. Yes, it's sexist. Unfortunately, so is domestic violence.

[–]tintedlipbalmfemale-to-tamale woman2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thought the same thing. A domineering woman is perceived as a nag, at worst. Which is sad, but non-threatening. A man asserting this kind of control is perceived as an abuser and a threat to the woman. I don't think this perception will change any time soon.

[–]HighResolutionSleepMen have always been the primary victims of maternal mortality.0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What gives you the confidence that this perception is more than just a perception?

[–]gregariousnefariousBlue leaning with some reddishness....and radishes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

My thoughts exactly.

[–]masterrodPops all pills when necessary. And keeps a heavy stash of RPs.1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Expectations is an important factor.

[–]StickmanPirateBlue Pill Man0 points1 point  (24 children) | Copy Link

I'm not surprised, all it means is that society generally has different attitudes towards women and men, sometimes that harms women, sometimes it harms men.

Equality is a goal but it hasn't been achieved yet.

[–]despoticVeracityRed Pill20 points21 points  (17 children) | Copy Link

Equality for one half is a goal.

We all know how /r/MensRights is treated.

[–]taiboworksrational idealism > toxic egoism0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

We all know how /r/MensRights is treated.

and white men too

[–]dakruNeither[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

White people have very few (if any) issues as a race. Men have many issues as a gender.

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial-1 points0 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Like the people who complain that there is no heterosexual pride mardi gras.

[–]dakruNeither[S] 6 points7 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

There are essentially no areas (to my knowledge) where straight people are doing worse than gay people.

On the other hand, there are plenty of areas where men are doing worse than women.

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial-1 points0 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

So say men.

[–]dakruNeither[S] 2 points3 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

Men are disproportionately common among the homeless, suicide deaths, drug/alcohol addicts, homicide victims, prisoners (in part because of harsher sentencing), victims of serious physical (non-sexual) assault, and their life expectancy is 4-5 years lower than women's life expectancy. Those things are not just matters of opinion; they're facts (unless you have serious statistics showing that these things are not the case).

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

And the resources pumped into resolving these issues are huge. The tin pot misogynist mugs of the Internet mra and their sex crazed teenaged hangers on at trp are just damaging their cause and credibility.

[–]dakruNeither[S] 3 points4 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Men's issues don't get 1/10th of the resources and attention that women's issues get. They're barely even acknowledged as gender issues at all in general society. Your post where you replied to "there are plenty of areas where men are doing worse than women" with a dismissive "so say men" is an example of that.

I'd love it if there was serious, widespread action to address men's issues in mainstream society that meant no one ever felt the need turn to TRP or the MRM.

[–]WhisperSecretly a Talking Dog5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I'd love it if there was serious, widespread action to address men's issues in mainstream society that meant no one ever felt the need turn to TRP or the MRM.

TRP and the MRM are those things you wish existed. You think of them as extremist because you have been taught to. If the moderate alternative you are imagining sprang into existence, then it would immediately be painted as extremist, and people like you would begin speaking wistfully of a moderate alternative to it.

This already happened. The MRAs are the moderates.

[–]dakruNeither[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

With regard to the MRM, at least some variations of it (thinking more Warren Farrell-style, less Paul Elam-style) are pretty close to my ideal. But it's still a fringe movement, so I'd still be happy if there was serious mainstream action to address men's issues that meant we didn't need to rely on (or hope for) a fringe movement. If feminism could even half care about men in my lifetime then I'd be pretty happy. Not that I expect that to happen, but half efforts from the dominant view on gender in the Western world would still do more than full efforts from a fringe group, at least in the short-term.

But yes, the fact that even people as moderate and calm as Warren Farrell have so much opposition does say a lot.

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Primarily, mens issues are not seen as gender based issues, but human rights issues. Men - primarily straight, white men - are the "default".

[–]dakruNeither[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There's a certain way that men are seen in society. One side of this is that they're seen as default, which helps them. The other side of this is that they're seen as invisible, which hurts them.

We're dealing with them being seen as invisible. What's happening is that an issue (let's say, murder) has a substantial gender component and that gender component is being ignored. Yes, people pay attention to the existence of murder, but they do not pay attention to the fact that men are significantly more likely to be murdered. The men's issue is the gender disparity in murder, and if we ignore that then we're not addressing the men's issue.

A lot of men's issues are comparable to issues faced by black people. Black people are also more likely to be murdered than other races. Is it enough that we care about murder as a generic thing?

[–]stubingPurple Pillz Here!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It is funny how you are damaging Feminism with your attitude as well. Instead of working together with men for a better life for both genders, you just attack them. You are breading more animosity.

[–]Gnometard0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

who are these people?

[–]stubingPurple Pillz Here!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I understand where you are coming from, but that argument is so forced. There is a difference between a parade and a party.

[–]WhisperSecretly a Talking Dog6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Equality is a goal but it hasn't been achieved yet.

The problem with statements like this is not just that equality is impossible (given that men and women are vastly and fundamentally different), but that it is ill-defined, impossibly vague.

What does "equality" mean?

Not vaguely. Precisely. What does it look like? How do we know when we have arrived?

Already men's lives have been made so unhappy that they have been forced to harness their anger and stop caring what women think. And women still think we haven't gotten there yet. Your "equality" has started a war. And it's only going to get worse. Because women are just going to keep trying to paint men as evil for daring to do something different, and men do not have the option of backing down... because they had to do something, and women didn't have any idea what was going on, and wouldn't sit still to hear it.

It's not just TRP and TBP. We are symptoms of larger cultural forces at work. Men who have never heard of TRP, and never will, are getting fed up in their own way.

The last wedding I was at, all the young bachelors hid, literally hid at the back of the crowd, when it was time for the garter toss. They knew it was just a meaningless superstition. But they didn't want it. They didn't want to get married. And they didn't want to pretend.

Men are fed up. And saying "we haven't achieved equality yet" isn't good enough, because things aren't getting better. They are getting worse. Because the plan isn't good enough. It doesn't work. And you don't have to agree with me about what would work to see that, because twenty or thirty years ago, this conversation, this entire subreddit, would have been laughable.

I'm old enough to have seen the change. Things aren't getting better, they are getting worse.

[–]Gnometard1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Equality in what sense? Can you quantify it? Chasing an ideal that is not tangible is quite the fruitless endeavor.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Equality is a goal but it hasn't been achieved yet.

Whose goal?

[–]BaadKittehMiss me, bitches?1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

All decent people.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Are you the authority on decency?

[–]stubingPurple Pillz Here!0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're getting into philosophy now.

[–]Rufus_Reddit0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Anyone want to argue whether there's an evolutionary factor in the dichotomy? There's been some recent claims that men are better adapted to taking physical abuse.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27720617

[–]betterdeadthanbetaHeartless cynical bastard-5 points-4 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

This is a double standard, but to me it's a double standard that makes sense. For some reason I can't quite wrap my mind around the notion of a female abuser. If you're a man, you generally have physical dominance. Lots of physical dominance. You've also been hardened up by sheer virtue of having been born male into a world that doesn't exactly take it easy on men.

I'm open to the idea that I'm just ignorant on this topic though. I don't really know much about female on male abuse.

[–]gasparddelanuit9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is a double standard, but to me it's a double standard that makes sense. For some reason I can't quite wrap my mind around the notion of a female abuser. If you're a man, you generally have physical dominance. Lots of physical dominance. You've also been hardened up by sheer virtue of having been born male into a world that doesn't exactly take it easy on men.

I'm open to the idea that I'm just ignorant on this topic though. I don't really know much about female on male abuse.

A lot of information in the links below, with citations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2518434/Why-MEN-victims-domestic-violence-Its-Britains-remaining-taboos-abuse-men-home-rise.html

[–]dakruNeither[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You've also been hardened up by sheer virtue of having been born male into a world that doesn't exactly take it easy on men.

At the same time, I believe that men are not taught to stand up for themselves in the face of disrespectful or abusive treatment in their relationships (or even recognize when it's happening, as we can see from this study), which makes them vulnerable.

[–]hippydipster9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're living with someone, their threat of violence against you should scare you, regardless of how much you outweigh them. You sleep sometimes. You eat food they bring you. You aren't always there to protect your children. There are many weapons in this world that completely negate your extra strength.

You're thinking here is quite naive.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Women can use weapons, ya know?

A cast iron frying pan or a golf club can break bones.

That, plus men are taught never... NEVER to hit a woman, and to sit and take it like a man.

Fuck that. My wife ever starts attacking me, it's on.

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial-5 points-4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

You have a wife who is likely to attack you? Why are you with someone like that?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

No, my wife has never attacked me...

[–]wombatinaburrowfeminist marsupial-4 points-3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

So why fantasise about a retaliatory bashing?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills...

[–]tintedlipbalmfemale-to-tamale woman4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Abuse has been framed to be a male thing for so long that it's hard to see it happening the other way around. Plus, women are masters of tone and covert aggression so often they will make themselves seem like the victim before you can even recognize the dynamic taking place.

A very basic example is how a lot of women are not taught to not hit men. This sounds strange, but I was never actually taught this. Slapping a man's face for being mad at him or whatever was a common accepted trope when I grew up. I mean, basically every Johnny Bravo episode had that. And I even did it once to my ex before even thinking how messed up it was to escalate a petty situation this way, I regret it everyday. But most people who see this happening think "What the hell did he do to her?"

You could also argue that this is due to sexism, because it means women are not expected to control their emotions. But why should anyone else take it? There are tons of types of abuse that are not physical. Like, someone threatening to kill themselves if you leave them, gaslighting, false accusations, all sorts of things. Even female abuse that is physical is tricky to contain, because men can't realistically fight back without being seen as the perpetrators.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

For some reason I can't quite wrap my mind around the notion of a female abuser.

In order to conceive of it, try imagining a zoo elephant being abused by its trainer.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

And if the elephant fights back, they put it down.

[–]Gnometard1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I couldn't do it either, until it happened to me. Half of my friends I've made since that incident still don't believe it and just call me all kinds of hilarious names intended to be mean. I'm just a sexist though.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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