Red Pill TheoryOn Being Forthright with a Girl (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by stevredpill

There recently was a post that stated how as men, we should be clear about our intentions early on with girls.

It is unfortunate that I didn't read that post until earlier today. It looks like "Reddit"/and TRP had already approved of it and it had been upvoted into oblivion.

Although I don't disagree with the premise of being upfront, the analysis behind why this is the case (i.e. girl not knowing your intention/feeling betrayed) was horrifyingly off.

I'm sure most of you read it, but the basic premise is this: when you aren't upfront about your intentions with a girl (i.e. I want to fuck you), you are leading the girl to have mismatched expectations of what the relationship is, and thus you are setting the girl up to feel betrayed when you express your love down the line.

It is my mission to help you reconsider.

I saw various comments from seasoned members of our community trying to turn the tide and that are in line with my thinking, but they had already been pushed down by those that had jumped on and fully supported the content of that post.

Here is how it really goes:

  • The girl fully knows what the guys intentions are. We are fucking obvious about our intentions. It is "I want to get in your pants." Every time you carry her books, she is thinking "This chump wants to get into my pants."
  • This is unattractive to a girl because she knows what your intentions are, but she is absolutely disgusted that you don't have the balls to be forthright about it. Let me repeat. She only sees you as a friend because you don't have the BALLS to be upfront. This has nothing to do with her not knowing. She sees you as a friend because you ain't acting like a man.
  • Tangent - It should be noted that this does not mean you meet a girl and say "HEY MAN CAN I FCK YOU" when you first meet her. You need tact. She wants you to let her know that you want to get in her pants so that she has the option of choosing whether or not she is down. But no girl wants to be perceived as a slut, nor do they want to have to deal with outright rejection of a man. So you need to escalate. A touch here. A tease there. If she is down, she will reciprocate. You need to communicate your intention while allowing her to maintain plausible deniability of the situation. "How could I be a slut if he never asked me if I was DTF?" "How could I reject him if he never straight up asked me if I could go out with him!"
  • Back to those not willing to be upfront about intentions - To a girl though, validation is validation. She is not attracted to you, but she wants you to continue validating her. She wants you to beta orbit her for all of eternity. So she pretends she doesn't know that you want to do her. Actually, pretend is harsh. A better way to put it would be "convinces herself" that you just want to be friends. The hamster is strong. But it's fucking obvious and deep inside she knows it. She can read you like a book. You like her and she wants nothing to do with you. There is a deep safeness in her soul that if you were to confess your love, she can claim ignorance.
  • Why does she want to maintain ignorance? By pretending to be oblivious to your intentions, she wants to again maintain plausible deniability. She would hate to be socially identified as someone who uses boys as emotional tampons so she continues to convince herself she doesn't know. That way if you do "reveal" that you want to fck her she can act incredulous and be like how DARE you betray my trust!
  • But once again, that is bullshit. She betrayed YOUR trust by using you as a shoulder to cry on while knowingly giving you false hope that she will fuck you.

In conclusion, if you think that girls don't know what your intentions are, you are naive. They may convince themselves that you are just a friend. But once again, the hamster is strong in them.

[–]couchpotatocarl 108 points109 points  (3 children)

This post is definitely more in line with the reality than the other though they both have truth. I think the other post is the shallow surface level, while this is the core reason it plays out the way it does. Women know when you are attracted but they play 'friends' if you do bc they dont want to set the sexual tone. They rarely set the frame and will opt to follow yours. If you set the meter to 'bff' they rarely change it, *but will accept the free validation. I am positive they comprehend this social aspect of sexual dynamics on an instinctual level far better than men do so yes, they definitely know the subtext of what is happening in these friendships.

I like chocolates because i have a sweet tooth (other post) vs. it was selected for by evolution (this).

[–]stevredpill[S] 36 points37 points  (2 children)

bc they dont want to set the sexual tone. They rarely set the frame and will opt to follow yours.

Yup, this is basically due to their desire to maintain plausible deniability. They don't want agency because they don't want the responsibility when shit hits the fan.

[–]Endorsed ContributorAFPJ 17 points18 points  (0 children)

when shit hits the fan.

In girl world, shit never hits the fan because the fan ain't spinnin: it's decorative, shit flies past it their entire lives.

[–]JayViceroy 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I would say that women don't need to set the tone, nor should they. Men are the aggressors in the sexual market place and when you don't play the part, it's your fault when you fall into the friendzone. I was a part of the other thread and I saw it more of a blame game that "women are so bad they know what I want!" When in reality it doesn't fucking matter if they know or not. It's your job to be the type of man they can't stop themselves from fucking.

[–]IronBallsOfKnowledge 25 points26 points  (1 child)

If you are chilling with a girl and the frame isn't sexual, you've already lost. You should be escalating and it should be clear you're not just friends. You shouldn't be having a break in frame so big that they can say it's just as friends because of weak game and timid behavior.

You should be teasing, leading, and setting the tone of the relationship from the beginning. Tell her to wear something hot. Tell her when you're going out and what you're going to do. Tell her when to be ready. I don't know about you guys, but I don't do that with my friends. We talk about what we want to do and meet up as a joint decision. With a girl, you have to be the captain at all times or else you'r'e in the frame of just being friends and she has the right to play that card. If you're going to act like it's not a date and not sexual, then fuck you, you deserve to have your time wasted.

As they say, don't hate the player hate the game. If you don't know how to lead and build tension, she is going to try to use you for what you are good for: your time and your resources.

[–]stevredpill[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

In general I agree, but I want to clarify that this post is not making a recommendation as to what you should do with a girl. It is simply giving some insight into the dynamics of interaction with a girl.

Whether you extrapolate actions from this theory is another topic and a choice for every reader to make.

[–]2wiseclockcounter 19 points20 points  (1 child)


Here's my comment from the thread to offer a different wording alongside some very relevant video links.

The most important take away here is that plausible deniability is the primary mode of operation for the female hamster. She literally convinces herself that she didn't know any better. This is in my opinion why feminism's nefarious and ironic relationship with female hypo-agency is the way it is.

She's not "betrayed", you've just been played.

[–]JayViceroy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Nor is it her fault. You're attracted to her and as a man you pussy footed around your own sexuality. It's not her fault that you're a bitch. (Not talking about you /u/wiseclockcounter)

[–]RPSigmaStigma 14 points15 points  (2 children)

With enough game you can actually get girls to admit this. Just imply that you know all her tricks while being mildly amused, but not at all surprised by her earnest denial. Tease her about it and chuckle at her answers. Sympathize with her about how naive and easy to manipulate most men are. If you're completely non-judgmental about it, she'll eventually cave and admit it.

[–]RPReloaded 6 points6 points [recovered]

This is so true, and actually not that hard.

[–]RPSigmaStigma 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you listen to Patrice O'Neal or Tom Leykis, they do it all the time. Some girl on the show will start to hamster away some shit, they call her out on it, she tries to change the subject or give some BS, they persist in that "you silly girl, you think I don't know?" kind of way, and eventually they all cave and admit it. But they always have to follow up with some excuse or try to shift it back on them by naming something men do or whatever. It's always a cat and mouse game with women.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I was one of the ones on that post who argued that girls sometimes do such a good job of convincing themselves that they really are ignorant to the beta's real intentions (hamstering) that he does basically become genuinely invisible as a sexual being to them. Perhaps I'm overstating this a bit; I'm not saying they're completely unaware of what he wants (they're not that stupid); I just don't think we should underestimate the power of the hamster in this situation.

I wouldn't completely agree that the justification for "stating your intention" is irrelevant, as long as you actually do it. Interesting, though. It's kind of like pascal's wager. If you assume she does know you want to fuck her, you may well be right most of the time. But there might be occasional times when you get it wrong, misinterpreting signals or whatever, and get friendzoned. But if you assume she doesn't know, the worst that'll happen is that you'll get rejected, and you can move on. She wouldn't have fucked you even if you'd done the opposite.

In any case, it's important to stick to the man's point of view, since that's what we obviously have the power to change. So I completely agree that it's crazy to think about the girl's point of view and feel sympathy for her when a guy eventually does come out with it. Even if she has convinced herself he doesn't want to bang her, and maybe quite successfully, she's still made a kind of conscious effort to do that.

Edit: Actually, I think /u/couchpotatocarl above makes a far sharper analysis: if you set a strong sexual frame, they will enter it. If you set a non-sexual frame, they will enter it as long as they can get some validation from it. To them, regardless of whether or not you want to fuck them, you have set a non-sexual frame, so you are not getting fucked.

[–]BlaiseDB 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In game theory (the academic discipline, not PUA theory) it is called a "dominant strategy". Your outcome will always be as good or better than the alternative. Regardless of whether she is oblivious or merely playing dumb having you know that she knows what you want will move you faster into bed or into nexting her. Either way, you are out of the friendzone.

[–]Master1176 29 points30 points  (1 child)

I agree with this post completely.

[–]rlaine 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree with this comment completely.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

This is a sound reasoning and explains the genders' divergent viewpoints on friendship with the opposite sex.

To piggyback on what OP is stating, women know that their guy friends are attracted to them. In spite of that AND the fact that most guys think platonic friendship with women isn't possible, women maintain that intergender friendships are a-OK.

Admitting that platonic friendships with men are rare, if not impossible, exposes women as users.

[–]Unpopular_But_Right 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair, I have platonic, friends-only relationship with a few women, but that's because they're not hot enough for me to want to fuck.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And as we know, anything that exposes their true nature is to be fought against and denied to the death.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

This post resonates with me so much it's sad. The only thing I've left is blaming women for the way they are, before I really start to pick my act up and learn that it is me that needs to change, not women.

Women are all the same, and as of now, I fucking hate the way they are.

[–]animestar93 0 points1 point  (2 children)

And will always be the same (except for the rare occasional unicorns).

[–]JayViceroy 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Hint: a unicorn is a mythological being.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's funny how you grow up with the thought/dream: "there's a woman for everybody". In a way it's true (everybody can fuck a girl if they want to). But not the way we learn/dream. We think it's some happy, get together, falling in love, being loyal thing. Jokes on you though.

[–]WallBender 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Thanks for this post. I thought I was the only one who disagreed with the other post. Her feeling "betrayed" when you come out and profess your love is just her hamster talking... it's a way to place the blame on you (the man) for wanting sex with her. Of course you shouldn't be professing your love like a bumbling beta in the first place.

[–]1003rp 3 points4 points  (2 children)

This reminds me deeply of a show I think it was on mtv where they actually get the guy to tell the girl they have been orbiting for years how they really feel and it is hilariously cringe inducing. It's called The friend zone actually

Hilarious example


[–]agumonkey 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Nasty laughter. There was another video of a guy talking to college girl on campus about friends secretly in love, they all denied it, but when he insisted they all cracked an ran away because they do of course know.

ps1: I exagerated quite ps2: found it

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This girl is ugly AF though, let us be real.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

if you think that girls don't know what your intentions are, you are naive. They may convince themselves that you are just a friend.

OP is on point.

The reason beta orbiters might as well have vaginas (referencing a previous post) is because they're hamster enablers. Because of their fear of rejection, they hesitate to make their intentions clear to women. Their inaction allows the hamster to survive and women to string them along.

My current LTR had a couple of orbiters who she had to clear out before I agreed to an LTR. She insisted that they were harmless and were only friends. I had to explain to her that, unless they were gay, they wanted to fuck her but didn't have the courage to just come out and say it. When I finished my explanation, she said, "Oh, I never thought of it that way."

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The joke is, she did thought of it that way.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

So you need to escalate. A touch here. A tease there.

Can I get some more examples? This is the part I have the most trouble with. :/

[–]stevredpill[S] 3 points4 points  (5 children)

I think you give girls too much credit and you are getting analysis paralysis because you still pedastal girls. As soon as you realize that they are a dime a dozen life will be easier. If they are replaceable in your mind, you won't be afraid to touch them or tease them because you won't be afraid of offending or overstepping boundaries because you wouldn't give two fux if you lost them.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Less analysis paralysis, and more "I don't want to be charged with sexual harassment.' I got reasons to be paranoid unfortunately.

That and I can't run into any single hetero women. Only lesbians and partnered women. :/

[–]ProductivityMonster 1 point2 points  (3 children)

unless they're at your workplace, it's probably not going to happen unless you do something entirely inappropriate. You have to be a little bit aggressive unfortunately and make women decide if they want to date/fuck you or not.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

University. Already had one try to ruin my reputationn (running around proclaiming I'm a serial rapist), and I've seen guys driven out for less. :/ You REALLY gotta watch out for the SJWs - they will fuck you up if they can.

The biggest problem is getting the courage to do something without resorting to alcohol.

[–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (1 child)

A formal charge of sexual harassment isn't even necessary to put a dent in your life. A rumor like that can quickly turn a friend group against you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the feminist ally circles this was why you kept your head down.

[–]chrisindub 1 point2 points  (1 child)

If upfront means explicitly stating your intentions of wanting to fuck a girl upfront, then upfront is only useful with the type of girls that are going to fuck you no matter what.

After you have talked with a girl for 2-3 minutes, you should already have done several things to display your intentions.

You should have used body language including eye contact and touching her in a way that can be construed with ambiguity to raise the tension.

You should have taken the conversation in some sort of indirect sexual direction. NLP stuff is awesome for this.

Then if you are going to state something "upfront," its gotta be indirect, and humorous, like mentioning how amazing it is for you to find someone single who also likes Kandinsky, casual sex, and Jim Jarmusch films.

[–]stevredpill[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tangent - It should be noted that this does not mean you meet a girl and say "HEY MAN CAN I FCK YOU" when you first meet her. You need tact. She wants you to let her know that you want to get in her pants so that she has the option of choosing whether or not she is down. But no girl wants to be perceived as a slut, nor do they want to have to deal with outright rejection of a man. So you need to escalate. A touch here. A tease there. If she is down, she will reciprocate. You need to communicate your intention while allowing her to maintain plausible deniability of the situation. "How could I be a slut if he never asked me if I was DTF?" "How could I reject him if he never straight up asked me if I could go out with him!"

That's what I mean by upfront

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with what OP said. However, I also want to note guys here, especially the new ones, that when it comes to interacting with girls on a sexual context, the reality is far more subtle than just do this, do that, not this, and not that. The dynamics in the interaction is very subtle to us but loud to women, the best term I can use for it is "energy" or "vibe". Then there are the subtle delivery of banters, really man, it's very lengthy complicated (and some even silly) that it's not easy to word them down even on pick-up books.

[–]1beerthroway 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you're both right. Men are not honest about what they want in a relationship. They compromise too easily and too far.

Also, men are too direct in language. They are too efficient and that bores girls. A roller coaster ride goes absolutely nowhere but is a ton of fun. Girls want fun. Being direct isn't fun.

I think it's Rollo that points out that men are overt and women are covert. Learn to be covert and you'll make her brain malfunction. You can still be clear about your intentions, but do it in a covert manner.

[–]should_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

meet a girl and say "HEY MAN

laughed for longer than I was supposed to.

also, I completely agree.

[–]riverraider69 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Note: what we call hamstering is actually a psychological phenomenon called cognitive dissonance, which is basically holding two opposing beliefs at the same time. Human mind not being a computer has no problem dealing with stuff like "I'm a good girl" and "It's a good idea to suck this cock in the bathroom of the club" at the same time.

So it's not that she's pretending to know/not know your interest. She both knows it and ignores it at the same time. The how of it is pretty complex but not magic: I can recommend at least one book about it.

[–]Fir3start3r 0 points1 point  (0 children)

After my Ex left and I actually started dating again (which is interesting itself after many years of being out of that game), I was always up front with them.
That I wasn't out to commit to anything.
I'm out having a good time, with hopefully a good person and have some fun.
EOD. If they want something more, sorry.
I know I need to clean my side of the street up before I let anyone on my side but at the same time, I'm not going to sit my ass at home and do nothing either. IMHO that's the worse thing I could be doing....nothing...
So far it's worked out extremely well for me and they've told me that they actually respect that decision. There's no awkwardness at the end of the night and I get to try my RP tips at the same time while enjoying myself.

Edit: I understand this is more or less a, "Level 1" attitude here but then I know I'm new to all this and I'm not out to necessarily get laid. Although, that has happened and now I have a new plate... :)

[–]charlesbukowksi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is correct. Women don't actually think guys are friendly to them because they MERIT it LOL. They hamster away that causality in the moment, because in their world causality doesn't matter. Just the way a man dismisses that groggy feeling in the morning to get on with his day.

[–]chrisindub 0 points1 point  (1 child)

OK. Thanks for clarifying. Now I don't understand why this is called upfront.

I guess if there is some kind of "trying to be her friend," approach to the game, that sounds like a very long con, with a possibility of failure after a lot of work.

Its supposed to be a game not a long drawn out lie.

[–]stevredpill[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess it's upfront in the literal sense where you make your intentions clear towards the FRONT of the relationship, as opposed to being "forward" or "clear." Still gotta be clear though, but more "covertly" as another commenter pointed out.

[–]TheRealMouseRat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, girls most of the time know what your intentions are, especially if you do things for her, and you have a 1to1 relationship (as in you two are not just part of a friend group together). However, if you show some interest in a girl so that it should be obvious to her that you're into her, you will also get the feeling that she is not reciprocating those feelings if you pay some attention. Guys who get "stuck in the friend zone" have themselves to blame for not picking up on the signs. Imo more guys should get better at picking up the signs of her lack of interest, and next when necessary.

[–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the point of the other post is that if you are direct you don't give women the opportunity to willfully misinterpret your signals. You're a man and can't leave important shit to chance.

[–]PlebDestroyer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I said this but got downvoted! Lol good post.

[–]Buchloe 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think the only fault in this post is the last segment about her betraying your trust. If we aren't up front with them, can we be too upset if they aren't up front with us?

In retrospect, anger aside, realizing I spent twenty years doting on chicks who kept me orbiting, knowing I wanted them but that I wouldn't speak up about it is about the best life lesson could get regarding the efficacy of RP mentality in m/f interactions. I could have had plenty of them. But I was a puss. For all I know, several girls would have loved it if I grew a pair. But I didn't, so they got the next best thing to a man. They got a loyal pet that was funny, a good listener, and liked being around them. And honestly, that was my proper place until I chose otherwise.

You can't blame a chick, or anyone really, for working situations to their best advantage.

[–]stevredpill[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The difference is when we are blue, we don't know what we are doing. They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger -1 points0 points  (1 child)

The take away? If a woman wants to fuck you, you'll know. She'll reciprocate.

If you ever find yourself wondering where you stand, you've already answered your own question. Women don't make guys they want to fuck wonder.

[–]disposable_pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Women don't make guys they want to fuck wonder.

I don't think this quite captures it right. Women make themselves available to guys they want to fuck -- the onus is on you to lead the way 99% of the time. Women will rarely initiate conversation, rarely ask you out, rarely lead you by the hand back to her place, and rarely jump all over you when they're there. They'll put themselves in a position to where this stuff is easier for you, but saying they won't make you wonder implies they'll show their intentions unambiguously.

[–]mrp3anut -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

First off, "profess your love"....... whoever said that needs to GTFO and it should have been a huge flag about what was to come.

Basically what you describe is some butt hurt beta whining that some "asshole" fucked the girl he is orbiting then wouldn't commit, she cried on his shoulder about it, he didn't get laid afterwards, and now he posted some shit on the net about being upfront because the girl gave him some line about her believing "just wishful thinking" that the guy was gonna marry her and have 2.3 kids while she pursued her super awesome career.

The sad part is that the beta in question has never been upfront with the girl about what he wants from her. he is still trying to friend his way into her pants and hamstering it away as being "nice"

[–][deleted] -1 points-1 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]couchpotatocarl 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This post is theory not a guideline. You reply as if you disagree with a xourse of action op is advocating. It's like you are arguing with someone explaining principles of math because you don't think engineering is a profitable profession. Op isn't telling you to become an engineer.

[–]stevredpill[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Assuming you are interested in a girl already, which is basically implied by this post:

It should be noted that this does not mean you meet a girl and say "HEY MAN CAN I FCK YOU" when you first meet her. You need tact. She wants you to let her know that you want to get in her pants so that she has the option of choosing whether or not she is down. But no girl wants to be perceived as a slut, nor do they want to have to deal with outright rejection of a man. So you need to escalate. A touch here. A tease there. If she is down, she will reciprocate. You need to communicate your intention while allowing her to maintain plausible deniability of the situation. "How could I be a slut if he never asked me if I was DTF?" "How could I reject him if he never straight up asked me if I could go out with him!"

That is taken directly from the post and addresses this statement you made:

It does not mean walk around saying "I want to fuck you in the ass" to every woman you see. Likewise, if your intention is only to "get in her pants", you will find it is not very effective to communicate it.

In addition, not once did I say anything about this a mindset that you should be on 24/7. This is in direct response to another dude who was assuming that the girl does not know.

In general, it's not very productive when people go beyond the scope of the discussion which is a lot of what the rest of your comment is. I recommend you stay on topic because you are extrapolating a lot of assumptions from my post that I simply did not make.

[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (11 children)

I just straight up ask women if they are single. If she says yes she's interested, if she says no then I don't give her another thought.

[–]RPSigmaStigma 9 points10 points  (9 children)

Women will tell you they're not single when they are and vice versa. Sometimes it's a rejection. Sometimes it's just a shit test. Assume it's a shit test, don't just give up and walk away.

[–]Mairon_of_Aule 2 points2 points [recovered]

How exactly would you proceed, especially if you've never talked to this girl? In my scenario, I am fit and attractive, and have girls eyeing me; however, I find myself unable to move on from there. Is there any advice you could offer?

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"I have a boyfriend."

<Look away> "So do I."

Continue with the game like nothing happened. If she asks you to clarify, make no attempt to hide that it was a cheap joke. What it says to her is "I don't give a fuck if you have a boyfriend, my intentions aren't changed in the slightest. You have a choice to make."

If you're more alpha than he is.....you're gonna fuck her.

[–]chadeusmaximus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Step 1- be attractive Step 2-... Step 3 - never made it past step 2


[–]wont_tell_i_refuse 1 point2 points  (1 child)

No, this is great filtering. It's "Are you interested" said in a socially adept way.

If it's anything but a straight up "No, I'm not single", then you're in. For instance, if she says she's "sorta" single or something of the sort, then she doesn't think of her boyfriend in the best light and you're in.

Simple as that. And if a woman is single and hits you with that big of a shit test instantly, screw it because unless you're a master player you're not making it through those shit tests.

[–]RPSigmaStigma 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If I walked away from every chick who said she had a boyfriend, I would have missed out on a lot of hot sex. That's all I'm saying. You can be the good guy if you want. But I'm banging your girlfriend.

[–]Diomedes11 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

When a woman is attracted to the guy she'll say she's single. If a woman tells the guy she's not single, its not a shit test. Its not an opportunity to trying to break down Troy's walls. It means she finds you physically disgusting.

[–]RPSigmaStigma 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Tell that to the women who've told me they had boyfriends that I've banged anyway.

Edit: this is well established in the PUA and TRP communities: