Stop making posts "challenging" men to get married. It's a terrible deal/risk for men in the west. (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by aptway

[–]PumpDumpPumpDump 93 points94 points  (23 children)

It actually seems like it's a pretty small set of people who are making most of the posts, but in high volumes.

Most men who've been married will admit, at a minimum, that it's got lots of downsides and risks. The best case version of it I can get out of close friends is "it's got lots of problems, and I envy you for being single, but it's great for kids." More common responses are along the lines of "I hate my wife" or "don't ever, ever, ever get married."

Part of the Red Pill is being able to see through your own bullshit. If you can't do that, you're just posturing. It happens on both sides of the debate. If you say marriages never ever work and they're always going to be hell, you're wrong, because it is possible to have a happy one. But mostly they don't work, and often they're hell, and they're a big gamble, because you're entering into a contract that was designed to benefit women, not men. Marriage is designed to promote the female default sexual strategy (one guy to one woman who gives her stuff in exchange for having babies, and possibly raising the babies of a better man she already slept with).

Telling men they should get married is like telling women they should join a harem. Maybe it could work out, and some women would probably like it. But a harem isn't designed with a woman's interests in mind.

If you are running around calling yourself "The Captain" or "The Patriarch" and telling people their entire purpose in life is to spit out babies, you might need to go read the sidebar some more.

[–]TankorSmash 7 points8 points  (5 children)

I wonder how many of the people that said 'dont ever ever marry' got married before they were 25.

[–]Kalepsis 16 points17 points  (4 children)

I got married at 27. Waited until I thought I was mature enough, financially stable enough, generally ready for a huge commitment. I had a $12,000 car loan but no other debt, $10k in savings, a 2-bedroom apartment, and I was happy.

My wife and I were married a year and a half.

I am now 32. I live paycheck-to-paycheck working 50 hours a week at a job where I make $26.35 an hour. I have a house that is worth $30,000 less than I owe so I can't sell it, I have $41,450 in credit card debt alone. Can't afford a car over $5k. I will be paying off the "marital debts" for the next ten years at least. And I'm not even paying her alimony; these are just the results of commingling our funds, supporting her and her kid from a previous relationship, and allowing her equal access to my credit. Imagine how much fucking worse it could have been if I had to pay her child support and alimony.

I am grateful for two things that came out of my experience:

  1. I know now that marriage is the dumbest fucking thing a man can ever do. It's playing Russian Roulette, but you're using a semi-automatic pistol.

  2. Because she wanted to trap me by having a kid with me, I got a virility test and found out I'm sterile. This was honestly the best news I've ever heard in my life.

To summarize, I will advise every man I know to never, ever, ever get married.

[–]averageredpill 4 points5 points  (3 children)

I would like to know more about your story. How one can get 40k in credit card debt with only 1 and a half years of marriage ? What happened ?

[–]Kalepsis 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Basically I was stupid enough to give her duplicate cards with her name on them. I had 2 platinum credit cards with $20k available. She used them for everything, maxxed out both of them while I was deployed to Iraq. Turns out she was buying gas, food, and entertainment for herself, her daughter, and the dude she was fucking while I was gone. There are other things (like buying electronics from Best Buy on my credit), but that was my major mistake.

[–]ModMachiavellianRed 42 points43 points  (12 children)

It actually seems like it's a pretty small set of people who are making most of the posts, but in high volumes.

Name some names, we've got no time for this kind of bullshit clogging up the sub.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 38 points39 points  (5 children)

There have been a lot. One of them even had a guy saying he wanted to get married, contract and all, for the "challenge".

Absolute and utter hamstering at its finest.

[–]ModMachiavellianRed 47 points48 points  (3 children)

Absolute and utter hamstering at its finest.

If I see the post, he's banned.

[–]Bulldog44 35 points36 points  (1 child)

Thank God, I've been waiting to see this happen, it is really getting frustrating. What is the point of all of us that know better giving factual advice, if these morons continue to think the same dumb shit every other foolish motherfucker that got married thought, that their situation is the one special situation and their woman is the one special woman? Fucking idiots. Don't get married. There is not one single benefit that outweighs the mountain of shit.

[–]ModMachiavellianRed 29 points30 points  (0 children)

If you see any more of this blue pill idiocy, let me know, I will personally investigate the user in question.

[–]3 Endorsed ContributorTorquatus 20 points21 points  (5 children)


There's one. I'm too tired to track down some of the others I've seen lately; only knew that one because I chose to write a counterpoint in it.

[–]ModMachiavellianRed 34 points35 points  (4 children)

[–]Clutchology 18 points18 points [recovered]

You're freaking heroic. I fucking love this sub more than any other (more now). Fucking self awareness right here. Fuck political correctness, this isn't a woman's safe space. Revitalizing.

[–]MEpicLevelCheater 29 points30 points  (0 children)

It's no coincidence that The Red Pill - a large, populous, almost-unwieldy and yet still useful, informative, and smooth-running subreddit - is operated by a meritocratic patriarchy.

We are the microcosm of a social strategy that works.

[–]throwaway-aa2 5 points6 points  (0 children)


I can honestly say, this is one of the most powerful interactions in recent history to me. Dude at the end... goosebumps...

I've lived my entire life subjected to assholes like this. Passive aggressive this, irrational argument that. You banned him, and you explained EXACTLY why in a way that just cannot be defeated rationally. Society never gave a FUCK about me. Women took advantage of me and never gave a FUCK about me. Thank you man. Your comment gives me a lot of hope.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Most men who've been married will admit, at a minimum, that it's got lots of downsides and risks.

Understatement of the week.

[–]vainamoinens-scythe 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I love my wife and my kids. But don't get married.

My guess is only about 2 percent of the US population is even capable of having a long term relationship of any kind that trends to a positive over the course of time.

Other cultures, or even economic classes may be different.

[–]1 Endorsed Contributormordanus 60 points61 points  (8 children)

Marriage is life on hard mode. Having an arm ripped off by a tractor and trying to learn the piano is music on hard mode. Rubbing chicken guts all over yourself and swimming through piranha infested waters is swimming on hard mode. None of these should be a desirable thing to someone.

When you get married you taking a spin on the roulette table. Maybe your wife will be faithful. Maybe your wife won't punch you in the face whenever she feels like it and call the cops when you resist. Maybe you won't get divorce raped and have everything you love taken away from you. Maybe you will be able to pay the alimony or child support and not be arrested. Too many people take this gamble and get destroyed by the consequences of marriage. Don't do it.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor 29 points30 points  (5 children)

That's the shitty part. It used to be life-improved. The woman had a man willing to sacrifice himself for her stability. The man had perpetual access to female intimacy. It was a very simple social contract. But not any more...

[–]Magnum256[🍰] 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Agreed. The concept of old - fashioned marriage sounds fine, as in the first half of the 20th century. Marriage today sounds like shit. I'm in my 30s, never been married, no plans to do so, however most of my friends are married, and most are miserable. Some pretend they're happy but I can't imagine they're being honest with the amount of tiptoeing around they have to do even regarding mundane things like socializing or enjoying hobbies. I have one friend whose wife banned him from using the internet; I'll be talking to him over Skype and suddenly it will be "oh shit I hear the wife coming!" followed by an instant logoff. I couldn't live as an adult man with those kinda of absurd restrictions imposed by my spouse, and that's one of the most minor examples I can give.

[–]GainzdalfTheWhey 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Isn't Internet like a human right in some country? Sue her for violation lol

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 0 points1 point  (0 children)

His wife banned him from the internet?

How does he not see this as a problem?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Marriage is life on hard mode.

"Yeah, it takes more sacrifice than you think you can give and you have to work on it for years and years, but it's totally worth it." Except they never actually specify what makes it worth it. Love, companionship, and bonding with another human being aren't exclusive to marriage.

[–]Senior Contributor: "The Court Jester"GayLubeOil 120 points121 points  (33 children)

If I make a post saying that men shouldn't use motorcycles as their daily transportation because of the statistically high risk, ill instantly get a lot of motorcycle butt mad. I love my motorcycle it's awesome it has X Y Z advantage. Im a great driver ill be fine.

But it doesnt matter. You can be an amazing motorcycle rider or a great husband you can still get fucked up. You are not in complete control of the situation. Regardless of how amazing you are your wife or another driver can still fuck you up. And there is nothing you can do about it.

[–]RosewoodPill 19 points20 points  (2 children)

If the crash rate for motorcycles was near 50%, nobody would ride. Think about that.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Anyone got the numbers for average accidents/fatalities over a riders lifetime? I don't have a point, I'm just curious.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (11 children)

At least with motorcycling, The risks are more easily exposed, and mitigated with awareness.

[–][deleted] 63 points63 points

[permanently deleted]

[–][deleted] 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Just like you should be able to stop having a wife if she stops sucking.

[–]I_Am_My_Own_God 1 point2 points  (1 child)

While still retaining your accrued wealth and sanity.

[–]speed3_freak 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you the stig's American cousin, or his truck driving cousin?

[–]redpillromp 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Plus when your motorcycle breaks down every time you want a ride, or constantly requires expensive replacement parts you can trade it in for a new one without being tied into a 20 year court ordered maintenance program.

[–]deepfriedcocaine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And you are actually the one in control of a motorcycle while marriage would give someone else a lot of power over you.

[–]RedPill808 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And no one's saying you're a sad pathetic excuse for a man if you don't ride!

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (9 children)

a motorcycle is not a 50-50 chance of dying aka losing everything.

[–]SpawnQuixote 186 points187 points  (18 children)

As a 50 year old guy who has fought the vaginal support system called family court, this guy has it nailed.

You are by default the bad guy and have to prove you're not. Things may be getting better in some ways but in many ways, they are getting worse.

USA is getting downright creepy with its pushing of social justice as a form of change when it's actually more stalinist communism bullshit in another wrapper.

[–]TitsAndWhiskey 44 points45 points  (8 children)

Another older divorced guy here confirming that every bit of this is absolute gospel. Don't do it, kids. And consider getting a vasectomy.

[–]SunshineBlotters 16 points17 points  (7 children)

Hopefully male birth control is released in 2017 as they said they would

Though I doubt it cuz the one time shot will likely cut into the proceeds of the female's daily birth control.

[–]Echelon64 9 points10 points  (4 children)

There are more uses for birth control besides just controlling birth and many women simply enjoy the benefits of not having a period to begin with. Female birth control isn't going to go anywhere.

[–]SunshineBlotters 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I know it aint going anywhere. But there will be a drop in sales to girls who use it just to avoid pregnancy. Especially those in committed relationships.

Dont think for a second that these pharmaceutical companies arent assembling a team of their best actuaries and financial analysts to run cost vs benefit analyses and projected financial statements to see if it will be worth it to them.

[–]PlanB_pedofile 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Plus one is hormone while the other is a physical invasion. If men can turn off their sperm with hormones, we'd have had it ages ago.

[–]PlanB_pedofile 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ehhhh don't know. Vasectomy or a shot to the dick. They seem the same.

[–]Berend09[🍰] 40 points41 points  (0 children)

USA is getting downright creepy with its pushing of social justice as a form of change when it's actually more stalinist communism bullshit in another wrapper.

Perfect description. Couldn't have said it better.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (3 children)

Yeah, social justice my ass. More like socialist injustice. Problem is you don't have to be married to pay for someone else's bastard child. The tax dollars you pay to Big Govt Beta Bux will take care of that for you.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (0 children)

The shitty thing is that if you get roped into child support, you're still going to pay taxes to provide for all of those women you didn't actually knock up. I'm sure it stings much worse when you're doing it twice.

[–]ThePedanticCynic 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Hell, at least one guy is in jail for not coughing up support for kids that aren't his, delivered to a woman he never dated. She just put his name on the birth certificate. The system is getting worse for men, not better.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In our court system men are guilty until proven innocent, and women are innocent until proven guilty. Especially when it comes to familial issues

[–]RedPill808 2 points3 points  (1 child)

45 year old married guy here (2nd Marriage - yup, slooow learner)


Love my wife, love my kids. Truth is that women don't love you back. First wife expertly hid her party girl/CC past until she squeezed out a couple kids, then decided booze, drugs 'n alphas were better than being a mom.

Divorce and family court are stacked against you & there to punish men. You can "win" small victories, but for what it costs financially, they are only pyrrhic.

Wife 2.0 is better, but I discovered TRP too late. I'd rather spin plates and have my money & freedom. Being married is much tougher, and not in a good way.

You want to "have kids"? There are hundreds of Big Brother opportunities to help kids/orphans who need a man in their life. Make those your kids. You'll feel good and help society too.


[–]chtrchtr_pussyeater 1 point2 points  (0 children)

40 yr old guy, completely agree!

[–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (23 children)

Prenups can get thrown away? I had no idea. What kind of shitty legal binding document is this?

I had no idea that your prenup can be arbitrarily discarded. What is the reason for this?

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (11 children)

Coercion is often cited. There are ways to protect yourself from getting a prenuptial thrown out based on coercion, but no foolproof ways.

[–]Berend09[🍰] 8 points9 points  (8 children)

Can you please expand on this?

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (7 children)

You have your lawyer, tell her to get her own lawyer, and then it is signed by all 4 at the same time, so two lawyers as witnesses to it.

(I'm not a lawyer)

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (5 children)

This is the best you can do, the time line is also important. It's advisable to do it a significant enough time before the wedding and have it signed on multiple different dates.

Even then it's not waterproof.

[–]Berend09[🍰] 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Good to know. It's sad that so many steps have to be taken to prevent grabbing the ankles of life.

[–]2Overkillengine 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Easier to just refuse to get married.

[–]Berend09[🍰] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Indeed. I love it when others try to use the "you don't want to die old and alone" argument. I can promise that the feeling of old and alone pales in comparison to the effects of divorce rape. When I'm old and wrinkly, the strip club will fix any loneliness issues.

[–]2Overkillengine 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'd rather be truly alone than alone with someone whom is only with me because of a contract.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The best you can do is just not get married

[–]other_worlds 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Too bad coercion can't be cited to throw out the marriage financial contract. Wait. Why can't it?

[–]grewapair 11 points12 points  (1 child)

A lot of law firms won't even draft them, as there's no way to ensure it will stand up.

[–]Echelon64 8 points9 points  (4 children)

Prenups can get thrown away?

Yes, the idea is that the pre-nup may be heavily one sided, or that the female partner didn't have proper legal counsel, or someone could have shifted the judges bran flakes bowl by 90 degrees causing her wiccan candle system to go out of sync.

Prenups for your typical man are worth slightly less than the toilet paper you buy off of Amazon.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

What the fuck, society.

Maybe I'm still in the anger phase, but I've felt this way for a long time before coming to TRP: The world loves to shit on men's rights.

[–]Rathadin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You have no rights, STFU and go make more money to support the welfare system for single mothers by choice.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

"wiccan candle system".... Goddamn that was funny! I'll have to remember that one. That's about how it works too.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't go quite that far, but they're less useful than most people envision.

And in most places, they don't protect assets created after marriage.

[–]1grendalor 5 points6 points  (2 children)

In most places in the United States, pre-nups are most useful to protect substantial pre-marital assets -- if you have assets you have acquired yourself prior to the marriage, you can try to protect them in a pre-nup if you (1) disclose them thoroughly to your fiancee, (2) have both of you represented by expert family lawyers, (3) actively negotiate the pre-nup terms (not just one draft and sign -- negotiate several revised versions), (4) have all of that take place well in advance of the marriage. Then you have a decent chance in many states of having it enforced with respect to pre-marital assets that are kept segregated during the marriage. Some courts won't enforce it against the gains on such assets that take place during the marriage, however.

And, with respect to basically anything else, it's very hard to enforce. That includes: assets acquired in marriage, debt acquired in marriage, behavior during marriage (i.e., trying to "penalize" cheating by means of punishing it in the pre-nup), anything pertaining to children (custody, visitation, support) or, in some states, alimony (alimony law has changed a lot and is still changing in many places).

So, if you're looking for a pre-nup, realize that it's mostly worthwhile to protect pre-marital assets. For other things, it's either much less likely to be enforced or downright very unlikely to be enforced, depending on where you live.

Disclaimer: I am a lawyer -- not a family law expert, but I know a bit about it. Any details or legal advice would have to be obtained, however, from a loawyer admitted to practice where you live, and who is a family law expert. Note also that the laws outside the United States may indeed be very different regarding pre-nups -- I am not familiar with them, and this comment does not relate to laws or practices of countries other than the United States.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It sounds like they make it very difficult to draft and ineffective to discourage men from drafting prenups. Why is this?

[–]1grendalor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The underlying reason is that, in most places in the US, family courts are "courts of equity" rather than "courts of law". The difference between the two is that while a court of law enforces contracts as they are written (absent fraud or illegality), and will allow people to make a bad deal, courts of equity are concerned about the fairness of the result reached by enforcing the contract. So a court of equity doesn't want to enforce a "bad deal", in the sense of the court viewing the result as "inequitable" (i.e., unfair). On this basis, all kinds of "equitable rationales" will be used to deny enforcement, such as coercion/duress (too close to wedding date, so under pressure), latent fraud (incomplete disclosure of assets), unequal bargaining position (not represented by good lawyers, no opportunity to negotiate, no actual negotiation), and so on, as ways the court justifies not enforcing the pre-nup "for equitable reasons". A related set of reasons is "public policy" -- the idea that contractually divesting a spouse of her share of the marital assets, her claim on alimony or spousal support, her claim over the kids and child support and so on violates the public policy of the state, and therefore will be ignored by the court --> the idea here is that the state (including the courts of the state) have determined that state law/policy on marital assets/support/kids/cs/alimony is "X", and you therefore have no right/ability to deviate from "X" by means of making up your own "private law" in a contract.

The bottom line is that family courts aren't neutral in the sense that courts of law (in theory) are -- they aren't trying to be a referee to make sure everyone plays by the rules of the game, and let the chips fall where they may in terms of letting people suffer from making a bad deal in the contract. Family courts are courts of equity, so they are very interested in the result, and are not trying to be a neutral referee in terms of deciding whether to enforce -- it's all rolled into the "fair and equitable under the circumstances" idea, and if the court concludes that enforcement would be unfair or inequitable, it won't enforce.

So, yes, it's meant to be very difficult to "draft around family law", because they don't want people making up their own private law in areas the state and courts have already covered. It's not viewed like a commercial contract (although even there, there are things you can't waive in a commercial contract like, say, consumer protection laws), but as a matter of state policy, and the idea is not to enforce the pre-nup if it contravenes state policy or otherwise would lead to an unfair result. Generally if it relates to pre-marital assets, keeping these away from the spouse is not seen as unfair -- after all they were pre-marital. But anything else ... not viewed that way, generally.

[–]Aquasven 48 points48 points [recovered]

Getting married is like sewing one of your own legs off.
''Yeah,I definitely have a harder life then you guys now.''
Uh oh.

''But you know what, I managed to find happiness despite losing a leg, I'm living my life just fine.''

''So be a man and sew your leg off as well you pussy.''

No one argues that happiness is impossible in marriage.It's possible but the whole premise is filled with stupidity.
Why would you purposely handicap yourself for the rest of your life?
Why would any man with a sane mental mind limit his own ability to walk away from a woman by willfully signing up for a financial guillotine hanging over his head at all times?
Just so you can be more manly?Fuck off please.

That's the same pile of shit feminists spew:
''Men are supposed to be manly and be able to deal with our shit, if they don't then they're not real men.''
That's the same bs rhethoric coming from some TRP brothers who in my opinion have no place here.

''screw yourself over and be happy in marriage, because you can take it, because you're a man''

It's already too late..men who spread shit like this are already downgraded to beta's.
Once you give up your rationality by giving up your most amazing ability..that is to recognize that you fucked up and to learn from those mistakes..once you give that up the male hamster starts running.

And who can blame these poor men?Realizing you've literally given away half of your financial power (money made by your HARD work,time and life energy) to a woman for the rest of your life for NO reason at all but the mindfuckery propagated by feminism.
Who can blame these men for running away mentally and letting the hamster spin?
But a real man never runs away, you admit your mistake and you soak it the fuck up.

The only men that survive a marriage with their full male potential intact are the ones that recognize they fucked up big time by marrying and act up to minimize the damage in the ways they can.
Real men own up to their shit, so they should normally still get respect from their wives.

But looking at the divorce-rape statistics..I'm sure plenty of alpha's have been assfucked just as badly by their spouse.
(I mean come on, you can walk away...but she can walk away and take half of your money AND 8 out of 10 the kids with it..Who the fuck are we kidding?It doesn't take much for even a woman no matter how stupid she is to understand that SHE has the POWER over YOU, her man.
And maybe some unicorns can deal with that power but we all know how it's going down when a woman is behind the wheel..)
And not only that, the very men who get raped in divorce have thrown a gigantic wedding party mostly out of their own pocket to celebrate the moment they unconsciously weaponized their ''Bride''.
Is there any limit to the humiliation society has put the male gender through lately?
Is this shit going to go even further and dirtier?Who knows...

Keeping your spouse cool and under control, as if one is constantly managing a nuclear reactor.
Even if you do manage to keep things safe and under control through TRP marriage tactics you will be under constant stress.
Perpetually worrying about the state-of-mind of your woman, you may appear like an alpha, you may have her under your control and at your whim, but the truth is you're not keeping her happy and sane because you want to, but because you have to.All your actions are constantly governed by the overarching threat of the power she wields over you.Whether she's ready to use it or not,whether she's even aware of it or not.
''Fuck it, I'll divorce her!''
And each single check, or promotion, will be slashed for the sake of your ex-wife, and each single time your alpha dignity will itch horribly and remind you.. there's someone out there with control over YOUR life.
Got lucky enough that your income is now eclipsing the alimony?Brace yourself for the ex-wife spurting herself to claim her lion-share in front of the courts, once again.
The only way to forget is to bleed and sacrifice enough ego and dignity till you hit beta levels of sanity and let the hamster reassure you that ''she deserves this,marriage is the right thing, she was the first love of my life, I do it for the kids, society expects me to do this I'm just being a real man.''
Whatever happens, once you enter the marriage contract you are BRANDED for LIFE.
No man should make his soul go through such an abonimation of a contract.
I once used to wonder what the deal was with the stories of aged men sitting in bars ruminating,regretting and venting about their ex-wife this and their current wife that...with a chunk of their soul dead and stuck in the past.
I now understand.

A man can in theory overcome everything.But a man is also just a simple human.We desire happiness.Don't go through hell if you don't have to.

One thing is sure, you especially don't try to lure younger brothers into the vile trap you once fell into, that's some woman level of nastiness.

[–]CptDefB 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't recall seeing your name before, but I will remember it now. Nice narrative, excellent analogies. +1

[–]sigmayogi 4 points4 points [recovered]

That reminds me of Kobe, I wonder how happy he is married to that cow, and having to hide his natural instinct to lay pipe with all the available women. Denied being an alpha savage he was born to be.

[–]kevkos 9 points10 points  (1 child)

You really think Kobe is "faithful"?

[–]leredditarmy5000 15 points16 points  (5 children)

I spoke to a family lawyer recently out of concern for this sort of thing. As far as property rights, having a child is virtually the same has being married.

In order to maintain your independence and property, you need to be common law and have no children.

Even then, she will be entitled to whatever she put in.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

how is...how is that "fair" in any sense of the word? Oh having a baby means you're just Jesus Christ. You get all of HIS money he ever made or will think about making.

[–]DistantWinter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure if you are speaking of US law and if so what state, but I can say without a doubt that where I live in the US this is not true.

I was with a woman for 15 years and had 3 children. I never married her and only had our mortgage in both of our names. I never shared any type of financial accounts. Her money was hers and my money was mine. I purchased Tesla stock and she purchased candy bars.

The only thing she got from our 15 year cohabitation was half of the equity in the home and child support based on 50% of the differences in our income. I wrote her a check for her half of the equity and child support takes the money from my employer.

I kept the house, my cars, my retirement accounts, investments, all of the furniture in the home except what I wanted to give her and I see my children 50% of the time.

She took all her student, medical and credit card debt (over 30K). She took her vehicle, clothes, candy wrappers, some furniture and I personally delivered 4 truck loads of junk and trinkets to her dilapidated rented house. Other than my home and car I have no debt.

I also struck first... I obtained a mens rights lawyer two days after she flaked out and had two contracts written up immediately. The first one was for the sale of the home. I had it written in detail to what she was entitled to. The second only benefited me for my rights to my children. The financials were never going to change. I paid off the second mortgage and refinanced my home into my name only.

I had lived through, heard and seen enough horror stories of divorce growing up to know I was NEVER, EVER getting married. Listened to others who've had their kids taken, raped in court, blamed of multiple types of abuse, lost all hope and committed suicide. I treated our relationship as a marriage and I prepared for D Day. She didn't.

One of the best decisions I ever made.

[–]alritealritealrite 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Every morning at break each of my coworkers take turns bitching about their spouses. One even has to call his wife during breaks and "check in." It's not uncommon for someone's wife to call and bitch one of them out either. Meanwhile I'll sit there and take turns heckling them for being married. I'm going to start keeping track of how many times I hear "happy wife happy life."

[–]javi404 3 points4 points  (2 children)

happy wife happy life

I heard that at a good friends wedding and I almost dropped my drink. The maid of honor was the one that said it during a speech. Poor sucker.

[–]Statecensor 20 points21 points  (2 children)

Living with a woman and not getting married but having children with her is actually worse then being married. Not only do you lose out on the small legal benefits and protections from being married but you face the exact same risk regarding child support. Sure you can skip not paying her alimony or half of your fortune but depending on how wealthy you are to begin with the child support payments alone could be enough to crush your spirit if you are making less then 80k and you live on the west or east coast. For men with working class jobs like tradesmen, salarymen and high paying but still blue collar jobs with no family wealth getting married is not worse then having a baby momma. I am not saying you should marry your kid's mother just pointing out some of the alternatives could be just as bad if not worse.

So you should include never having children with your post Aptway along with not getting married.

[–]panterin 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A sane man wouldn't have children in a child-support state.

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes, all true.

But... if you are specifically interesting in kids, this is definitely better than getting married. That's if you can't pawn your genes off on a beta bucks..

[–]Endorsed ContributoriBrokeRSA 21 points22 points  (1 child)

Agreed, those clowns who actually advocate marriage are still blue as blue. Marriage is such a huge commitment for men that these men are victims of the sunk-cost fallacy -- they can't or won't let go of their oneitis without blowing up the rest of their life, so they rationalize that it's possible to have hand as a man in a marriage. I mean, sure, it is possible, but it's a lot of work for what benefits exactly? If you have little to no interest in children, marriage offers you absolutely NOTHING you can't get elsewhere.

TheRedPill is about getting the most out of life as a man. If you're alpha enough to have a redpill marriage, you're alpha enough to do whatever you want outside of that legal structure -- why handicap yourself with a wife who is financially incentivized to turn on you?

[–]1DRMMR76 25 points26 points  (3 children)

Misery loves company. It's all just married dudes who want more people going through that shit with them so they feel like their decision isn't as bad.

[–]Ovadox 15 points16 points  (1 child)

People are the same way about parenthood. They'll complain all the time about how they are stressed out, get no sleep, have no money, sexlife went to shit. Then turn around and tell you to have some of your own.

[–]Kubomi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Having children is a pain but it is also an easy method of instilling meaning into your life. I don't have kids and never plan to but I can see how people could complain about it and also value it highly simultaneously; it is in our DNA after all.

[–]veganhitler 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Man. Thats so true.

The other day i had a guy tell me to get married, because it's not fair and i should be miserable like the rest of the married guys.

it sounded like he was joking, but thinking back on it, i think he meant it.

[–]NoRegretj 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Subtle shills, I swear. Coaxing people out of this is deadly as fuck because they'll publicly denounce us even more. Don't get married.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

agreed - the state is alpha male. unless youre a billionaire she's marrying a beta. stings a bit

[–]PM_Me_For_Drugs 3 points4 points  (2 children)

the state is alpha male

Too true - Western civilization does the "iron fist in velvet glove" thing very well. They figured out back in 1970 that you can't just call in the national guard and murder kids who challenge your ideology, so by necessity, their methods of subduing potential rabble rousers have become much more subtle.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

they realized you eliminate the problem through twelve years of indoctrination... schooling

[–]PM_Me_For_Drugs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yup, just frame every subject and conversation so that lies/distortions are facts and dissent is out of bounds. Shockingly effective!

I hated the indoctrinating nature of public school. Brought my own books to class... Actually got suspended one time for questioning a teacher (who was wrong). Didn't swear or raise my voice, still got suspended for "insubordination" because I made her look dumb in front of the class.

I just laughed when she handed me the slip and said "Seriously? What is this, the military?"

[–]1TVTestPattern 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Another 50 year old here...

OP is spot on... Don't get married. However, as others have mentioned you don't even need to get married to get squeezed.

For some perspective... my federal taxes + child support is in excess of $50,000/year. Think about that for a moment...

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Many RP guys talk about the negatives of getting married, and they went and got married. ex. Bill Burr. I've yet to hear him or any others talk about the positives, I know women know some positives about getting married. Why do men talk shit about marriage but yet they still do it?

[–]symko 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I'll bite. Some people have a godhole and they have to fill it with stuff, it could be sex, drugs, money, women, stuff.....etc. Marriage is one of those holes and some people are just content to try to make it work when the System dictates that it wont. Probably because they believe that they can beat the odds. Tell you what, sell all your stuff, get a ticket to Vegas, with the rest of the leftover money go to the ritziest casino you can find and bet everything on one roulette wheel. I'll happily do that than to consider getting married.

[–]PM_Me_For_Drugs 8 points9 points  (0 children)


This might be the most apt euphemism I've ever heard for the great existential discomfort of being human.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (7 children)

Stop making posts "challenging" men to get married.

I agree with your reasoning, but disagree with your post.

Once you've hit your mid-to-late 20s, people will start trying to convince you to get married. Some will be overt about it, some will call you immature, some will talk about how marriage makes your stronger or "better", you name it.

And guess what, some of them will be really damn convincing.

If you can't articulate to yourself why you shouldn't get married, while reading an intelligent post on TRP arguing otherwise, then you'll have a difficult time convincing yourself of that IRL as well...when the feminine imperative is doing it's damnedest convince you, you better be prepared.

Iron sharpens iron, as they say.

[–]3789143792849381 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Sometimes we don't have to be able to articulate it even if being able to do so would be nice. Marriage is unnatural, and the default state is to not get married. We just have to avoid the indoctrination and feminization as we age, and we can avoid it

[–]aphelion3342 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Stellar username sir. I tried to find a pattern and couldn't.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Marriage is unnatural, and the default state is to not get married.

Problem is, the idea of marriage feels natural to most men, it's why so many of us do it...believe me, regardless of whether or not it is natural, the right femme fatale can make it feel very natural

If you go into through life assuming that marriage will be easy to avoid because it's "unnatural", you'll probably end up like Mark Minter of yesteryear...the dude who was manosphere-famous for ranting on and on about not getting married ends up rationalizing, hamstering, and doing exactly that.

And frankly, marriage (yesteryear's concept of it, at least) should feel natural.

Humans have been practicing marriage for thousands of years, across thousands of cultures...can you name the one cultural practice that ancient Romans, New Guinea cannibals, and the Amish all have in common? That's right, marriage.

Unnatural? We wouldn't be who we are as a species if we never invented marriage.

[–]panterin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Marriage is still 100% culture 0% instinct. Remove the indoctrination and the person will have no desire of marrying.

[–]mrp3anut 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Hmm maybe we can just alternate between post of guys complaining about what another guy posts

If you don't want to get married then don't. Crying about someone else posting about marriage is group think bullshit.

[–]disposable_pants 10 points11 points  (37 children)

I think most of the posts that don't immediately write off marriage come from one of three places:

  1. Men who are married, are happy, and don't see that their situation is not typical,
  2. Men who are married, are unhappy, and are still rationalizing about it, or
  3. Men who want kids, see marriage as a likely part of that equation, and want to figure out how to lower the risk for themselves.

Number one is fine because it usually focuses on how to maintain a happy marriage, and plenty of people on this sub either are or at some point will be married -- it's fair to discuss strategies for maximizing their chance of success. Number two is misguided and that's almost always recognized and called out.

Number three has plenty of room for discussion but the threads are too often short circuited with "don't get married, period", "get a vasectomy, period", "marry someone else, period", etc. This is poor quality discussion as it ignores reality: Many people want kids (there is no rational argument against this) and marriage is often the best way to have them (imagine the quality of woman that will have your children out of wedlock and compare that to LTR material).

I'm fine with squashing "marriage is good", "marriage is a worthy challenge", "real men get married", etc. discussion because as OP points out it's settled opinion that marriage is a highly risky endeavor, but too often needlessly anti-marriage comments swamp a thread on topics one or three.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 3 points4 points  (7 children)

On the contrary, a woman who won't have kids with you outside of a marriage (I mean the contract, not a party or title) is a lower quality woman than a woman who will.

Any woman who demands that you expose yourself to undue risk for no reason is low quality, and doesn't love you as much as you think she does.

Drop her. Find a new one who will. You can and should do better than a woman who demands a marriage contract.

This is scarcity mentality.

[–]disposable_pants 1 point2 points  (4 children)

This is scarcity mentality.

I think it goes without saying that there are very few women who are A) available and B) the type of woman you'd want to have kids with. Every month or so someone writes up some back-of-the-envelope math and concludes that ~5% of women are what we'd consider marriageable. Now how many of those live within a reasonable distance of you? How many could you get along with well enough to spend years or decades with? How many lack baggage/want to have kids when you do/have their life somewhat together/etc./etc./etc.? It's scarcity mentality because women you'd want to have kids with are scarce. Abundance mentality works for more casual relationships because there are countless women you'd plate; there aren't countless women you'd have kids with so abundance mentality in that area is misguided.

Any woman who demands that you expose yourself to undue risk for no reason is low quality, and doesn't love you as much as you think she does.

From her perspective there are a million reasons to expose you to the risk of marriage. She's from a good family, right? Her, her family, and her social circle have good morals (as we traditionally define them) right? She's going to think you're a catch and won't take your presence for granted, right? She's going to love you, right? She's going to be good enough that she'll have other good options, right?

That type of woman isn't low quality, yet every single one of these traits will make her want marriage and fear kids outside of marriage. The ones that aren't directly related to her will back up the exact same desires and fears with massive societal pressure from every angle. The last one is the most powerful -- her value means she'll have plenty of other high value men who would marry her. If you're the absolute best man you can be then maybe she'll think she can never get anyone else as good as you; outside of that ideal situation why would she settle for a guy who demands kids outside of marriage when she can pick another guy who's just as good but wants to buy her a ring?

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 4 points5 points  (3 children)

She may want (in the sense that most girls want) marriage, and in fact I'd argue that the type of girl you're talking about would, without further prompting try to go marriage track if she could wrangle it - but here's where you come in.

You tell her your position, and why you won't get married. Explain you'll be committed to her, you can have a party and a ring, say vows in front of priest if you want to, and she won't have to tell her girlfriends she's not "really" married.

Done. Hamster fed. Make your own "marriage contract" that gives both of you power of attorney over each other in case of incapacitation.

She wants social validation, being princess for the day and the emotional support that you won't abandon her. Provide her those things and she won't even think about a one-sided contract that hurts you. Hell, if she bitches about it just ask her if she plans on leaving you one day. If not, then it's not an issue. Flip the script.

And if she balks, NEXT HER. Women, even "quality" women are simply not that scarce. If you can find one, you can find another. And if you can't - if she's literally the perfect girl you've ever met, and no girl can be amazing as her, well, you've found a unicorn.

And unicorns don't exist. So you're wrong.

There's simply no reason to sign a marriage contract. Everything you can have with one, you can have without one.

[–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That's as good of plan for a sidestepping the marriage question as I've seen, but my suspicion is that a court would see this as a common law marriage (especially with kids, cohabitation, and a ceremony involved), and then you're back to square one. Maybe a really good prenup in there would outweigh that, but I'm not sure. Either way, this is the type of discussion we should be having about marriage -- one that recognizes it's role in a life that includes children, and one that focuses on how to minimize the long-term risk.

The point of my top-level comment was that brushing off the issue of kids with "just don't get married", "just find someone else", or "just don't have kids" is neither realistic nor particularly useful.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Most jurisdictions (at least in the US) don't have common-law marriage, so it's not really an issue for me or US readers, but in some areas (like Canada) yeah that's definitely an issue.

[–]javi404 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On the contrary, a woman who won't have kids with you outside of a marriage (I mean the contract, not a party or title) is a lower quality woman than a woman who will.

You mean a woman who will hustle you into marriage before she has kids with you.

[–]kevkos 1 point2 points  (28 children)

imagine the quality of woman that will have your children out of wedlock and compare that to LTR material

My beef with this is LTR definitely does not have to mean marriage. Marriage is a social construct, LTR is a voluntary form of being in a relationship.

[–]disposable_pants 4 points5 points  (27 children)

Exactly, so a woman you'd marry would be even better than LTR material. I used LTR in that part instead of marriage because plenty of men have (reasonably) decided to completely eliminate the possibility of marriage while everyone has LTRs on the table. The type of woman who will have your kids without marriage isn't the type of person you'd want to be in any long term relationship with, be it marriage or otherwise.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 2 points3 points  (8 children)

Yes. It is. That type of woman recognizes how much risk you'd put yourself at, and puts aside her distaste of not signing a contract - to be content with titles and a party - or hell, possibly not even those - that's a quality woman. That's a woman who cares about you.

Defining part of quality = won't have kids without marriage is a mistake.

[–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (7 children)

That type of woman recognizes how much risk you'd put yourself at, and puts aside her distaste of not signing a contract - to be content with titles and a party - or hell, possibly not even those - that's a quality woman. That's a woman who cares about you.

AWALT -- women are self-interested. The only way a woman could truly care for you is if she knows she'll never get anyone else like you, and in reality that means she's 2-3 points below your SMV. Raising your own SMV to 8-9 and raising kids with a 6-7 may be a viable strategy for ensuring your children grow up in a good household, but no woman in a more equitable SMV relationship is going to care about you enough to put your well-being over hers.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 3 points4 points  (4 children)

She is self-interested, absolutely.

And if she places the self interest of possibly taking your money away over the self interest of your affection, well, why did you want her again?

[–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (3 children)

And if she places the self interest of possibly taking your money away over the self interest of your affection

All women do this; there is no if. If some women did this and some didn't obviously you'd choose the latter, but you can't make that choice; AWALT. The question here is how to have kids when all women are like that -- "just find one who isn't" isn't an answer.

[–]2Overkillengine 2 points3 points  (14 children)

The type of woman who will have your kids without marriage isn't the type of person you'd want to be in any long term relationship with, be it marriage or otherwise.

Back when marriage 1.0 standards were in effect, sure.

That is not the present though. Insisting on an unbalanced contract that is the current state of marriage is now a red flag.

[–]kevkos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Or putting a contract that essentially says "together forever" on a relationship at all is a red flag.

[–]kevkos 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Disagree. My point was that a voluntary LTR is a healthier setup than a marriage (which is much more involuntary after papers are signed), if you're after long term survival or just happiness. Neither route guarantee that, but so many problems come with marriage that there is no point to it.

[–]kevkos 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Totally agree, +1, and marriage is bad for everyone even women. The key with all of the marriage posts is we have to make sure to separate marriage from LTR.

You can have a successful LTR, EVEN with kids. In fact it will likely be healthier than having a marriage with kids.

LTR = voluntary choice to be in the relationship. Anyone can leave at any time and that's a GOOD thing, this means you AND your sig other will more likely be on your best behavior, unless you want them to leave you.

Marriage = relationship based on a contract, enforced by LAWS which do not favor the man and allow the woman to behave shittily if she chooses to do so, and it's MUCH harder to get the fuck out of it when you change your mind about her. Kids believe it or not actually know when their parents are no longer in love, or HATE each other, and are better off with them apart.

So why get married besides that you are following along with society and tradition for tradition's sake?

[–]sampson158 7 points7 points [recovered]

Can confirm, I am a married man here. I took the redpill just a few months back. I can agree that no young man should marry until he has vested that woman over and over agian.

I have seen too many men get married and as soon as she has her intended litter she splits with over half of his wealth and paycheck. It is a life ruining event every time. These coworkers I see this happen too are always burdened with loosing half their homes, half their paycheck and sometimes they even give away more than half in order to protect their own retirement pensions, knowing that that could be their only light at the end of their tunnels.

I know a little about my own grandfather's divorce, and while his wife had been cheating, she still got the kids, until the kids decided she was crazy and then moved in with dad. But she had already gotten her claws into their son and this eventually led to a falling out between the two of them, that led to them not speaking to one another for almost 5 years, until he passed away. (my mother was the eldest daughter of the family) my little sister still remembers seeing my uncle crying his eyes out at his own fathers funeral because they never got to say their last goodbyes, because of the evil shit his mother planted in his brain that drove a wedge into what should have been a strong father son bond.

heed the warning young men, DO NOT marry too young, trust us older wiser men, while my marriage is not yet to end in the scrap heap, my wife has all the pitfalls of every woman (YES AWALT) she is greedy, does not plan, wants what she wants and wants it now, what's hers is hers and what is mine is hers, and I am attempting to establish a foothold on the relationship in a carefull manner without ending in divorce (a fine line i walk)

I have reat aathol kay's book married man sex life, and am following the ideals set forward there. I am looking for more books. I am also taking the initiative and doing my own thing without asking her permission first and letting her build her own dread game. no more mr nice guy. Improving my SMV and passing every shit test with reckless disinterest. And so it begins.

But remember teh initial warning men, DO NOT MARRY. at least not until she has proven herself time and time again. (personally if my wife left me, I would never marry again.)

[–]javi404 5 points6 points  (0 children)

personally if my wife left me, I would never marry again.

Because every married man I know says exactly this, I am really glad I never married and never will. Maybe I was lucky that I had kids young and feel no need to get married for that reason (the reason they always sell you is to get married and start a family.) Don't drink the coolaid marriage is for suckers.

[–]faded_jester 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"Challenge me to get married" lol

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's to be done. There is no real logical reason for men in the US to get married...and no amount of shit testing/shaming/whining is going to make me change my mind. To me this like saying "I challenge you to give me all your money and start over with nothing!"....um yeah I'm sure it would be challenging...but why the fuck would I do that?

[–]hagenvontronje 4 points4 points [recovered]

People are advising marriage now? I've been gone for several months. Appeals to pride that involve "manning up" and losing nearly all leverage are for suckers.

[–]1rporion 12 points13 points  (15 children)

You know what?

Where I live she won´t get half my stuff and/because prenups work.

My problem is that I would only marry to have children and I cannot even imagine having them ripped out of my life.

The really fucked up thing is, even if a woman were ready to make concessions, she can´t, the law won´t allow it.

[–]1FunAndFreedom 15 points16 points  (0 children)

At best a prenup can protect you in the same way a motorcycle helmet will protect you, you'll live but you still may be fucked up pretty bad.

[–]bassivemalls 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Don't know where you live, but prenups in America at least only protect you from assets you attained before marriage. Everything you earn after you tie the knot is fair game. So, unless you're an older guy who's already assembled some wealth it's not worth it.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (11 children)

A prenup can be overruled by a judge if they suspect something foul.

[–]Meglomaniac 22 points23 points  (9 children)

a prenup will be thrown out of court for so many bullshit reasons.

Apparently even just telling a woman you wont get married without a prenup is 'coercion" or putting her under pressure to sign it.

[–]Ibex3D 11 points12 points  (3 children)

For real? That's ridiculous! The law treats women like children who have no agency over themselves but gives them all the power of an adult. Such bullshit.

[–]PM_Me_For_Drugs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well yeah, because they're oppressed by all men. Obviously.


[–]1rporion 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Yeah well, in Austria it won´t.

[–]Meglomaniac 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I have always respected the german/austrian style of government.

I always thought that the idea of taxing the western half of the country to rebuild the eastern half was a brilliant idea that frankly made germany the powerhouse it is today.

[–]singeblanc 3 points4 points  (0 children)

See also: Unions with real power, not neutered and left with a single card labelled "strike or no strike?".

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wow because wanting to make sure you hold onto your money is so coercive. Poor helpless woman couldn't just not fucking marry you if you're being so coercive?

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And it doesn't cover income earned during the marriage.

[–]1independentmale 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My problem is that I would only marry to have children and I cannot even imagine having them ripped out of my life.

There's little to nothing you can do about it. In most first world countries, if the mother wants out, she's out and the kids go with her. This is the world we live in, unfortunately. Your only other options are adoption, if you can find an agency willing to even consider a single father, or pay a woman to carry your child and give up all rights at birth.

[–]R4F1 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Marriage is a personal choice, that people make with their own conscience, religion, family, whatever. People who try to guilt-trip members for being married, or challenging them to marry, should get an automatic warning and/or ban. TRP is amoral, we judge by ideas and arguments, not appeals to emotion.

[–]kevkos 4 points5 points  (1 child)

No guilt-trips, just raw facts that show how bad marriage really is.

I think the laws are horrible, especially towards men

However, I think what should be focused on more here is the actual concept of marriage and trying to put "together forever" in a contract, which as TRP knows, is impossible.

[–]R4F1 5 points6 points  (0 children)

They are horrible. Which is why people need to state the facts, instead of making emotional arguments to or fro.

[–]RosewoodPill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One of the most intelligent posts yet. The marriage part is the hardest pill to swallow, because men are "gay" or "weird" if they dont get married. The threatpoint makes it too risky though.

[–]javi404 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much for posting this. As someone who has experienced this favoritism of women in the courts first hand (and I didn't even get married) I always tell young men here in the US, don't fucking do it. There is not positive to getting married in the west period. Why would you ever place a bet with those odds. I don't care who it is, don't let anyone tell you or bully you into marriage no matter who they are. Not family, not friends, not your SO. This isn't the 1930s. There is no positive benefit whatsoever for a man to get married these days.

[–]NeopolitanAfterglow 5 points6 points  (23 children)

Also getting extremely tired of the marriage apologists polluting this forum. It should be a topic that's open and shut in the span of a sentence or two, not some deep and philosophical matter that's explored in a multi-part series.

[–]kevkos 1 point2 points  (21 children)

Yeah, isn't it funny how thinks like AWALT are considered undebatable around here but for some odd reason marriage, totally not red pill, seems to be okay with many?

[–]disposable_pants 1 point2 points  (20 children)

Because TRP is realistic, and realistically many men either are currently married or will find themselves married in the future. If it's something that happens with significant frequency it's completely reasonable to discuss.

[–]NeopolitanAfterglow 5 points6 points  (19 children)

The issue isn't with talking about married men, or how to cope with married life, divorce, etc.

The problem is with TRPers talking about how to GET married. Basically "I'm thinking about making a big mistake in the near future. What's the best way to go about making this mistake?" and then getting serious responses. It's bullshit.

[–]beware_the_syllogism 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This. One of my close friends is a financial advisor, had clients who told him to not marry, had to redo portfolios and move assets to the wife, and has female clients who strategically divorce to build up their assets. Several years ago he asked me if I would gamble with half of every thing I own. Of course not.

Now it's what you said. "What's the best way to go about making a huge mistake?" He seems unhappy with his decision. I think he's being pressured by his very traditional family. Maybe he's paranoid about marriage ruining the vibe and I agree.

[–]fhghg 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's explored in the promise keepers sub, probably.

[–]KilluaKanmuru 4 points5 points  (1 child)

It's clear as day that marriage is just a bad business deal.

[–]ultrasuperthrowaway 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Not if the wife is rich and you just surf all day.

Marry high income, high net worth women only.

Guys need to raise their standards.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Hear Hear!

This is a very good post! The man is right and we should not be arguing about getting married or not. Its a fact that in the west, marriage's costs outweigh the benefits.

Do not fall for the "Love" bullshit. She'll love you, til she doesn't need you. Keep reading the sidebar material. Do not try to feminize the material.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

All of the ECs and older members arguing against marriage aren't young, angsty guys in their 20s who are "regurgitating the sidebar."

Some of the EC's have gone through marriage bullshit too... Some more than once. When they say marriage is a crappy deal fucking believe them already!

If I told you I had a stock for you but you had to put everything down on it and if it was successful you'd get to keep your money (no return) but if you failed you lost half of everything would you take that investment? Hell no.

[–]cascadecombo 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Don't tell people to do either, show pros and cons and each man is then required to decided on his own.

[–]javi404 2 points3 points  (6 children)

If you get married you have a risk to loose half of your shit, and half of the shit you will earn in the future.

If you don't get married, you don't have that risk.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see male dentists graduate all the time & they immediately finally get a physically attractive spouse. She gets knocked up immediately & spending his new income on suvs, new houses, renovated kitchens & multiple vacations per year. The wives address the guys by their last names in public. But you know what? These dumbfucks deserve it because they lack social intelligence & patience to find an ethical partner that actually cares for them. People love to blame their partners & don't want to own up to the partner they decided to pick. Nobody forced you to pick your financial & emotional rapist.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 1 point2 points  (5 children)

you due to the threatpoint she now has on your life and the power exchange that occurs from marriage.

And don't think she's going to threaten you with divorce one day, and you laugh back in an alpha way and she crumbles and says "I love you really honey, I'd never leave you".

No. Gradually increasing demands. Expecting you to do half the housework (as well as all the breadwinning and man jobs). Sulking about how miserable it is being the woman of the house. Demanding more and more. Giving less and less. Sex will happen only when you've exceeded last month's efforts. Creating arguments which subconsciously you'll address in some way, and then she'll figure out somehow that you care. Perhaps even because you're trying to make things work (and yes - trying to make things work is why she created the argument, to detect how much you care, what you'll put up with. and no, you cannot win because just when you get the hang of this, she'll start crying that you no longer care about her).

She knows in some deep part of her lizardbrain that all she has to do... is gradually slowly make things worse for you and better for her. After all, she'll laugh to herself... what are you gonna do, leave?

[–]SgtBrutalisk 1 point2 points  (1 child)

My cousin came the other day with his wife and she kept saying "How about I divorce you?" over and over. They got a child together...

[–]4delicioustreats 0 points1 point  (2 children)

And don't think she's going to threaten you with divorce one day, and you laugh back in an alpha way and she crumbles and says "I love you really honey, I'd never leave you".

She'd have no reason to if your SMV is higher than any other guys she can get with. Start with it being higher than hers. 10 may roll through town and there is nothing you can do about that. He'll fuck your wife, he'll fuck your daughters, he'll fuck your plates... Nithi you can do about it.

Sex will happen only when you've exceeded last month's efforts.

Sex will happen every time she is ovulating if you're on track. Keep her at home. Fuck her good. Fill up her " love tank" (with your high quality semen). Keep your SMV high and she won't be able to get any better.

Creating arguments which subconsciously you'll address in some way, and then she'll figure out somehow that you care. Perhaps even because you're trying to make things work (and yes - trying to make things work is why she created the argument, to detect how much you care, what you'll put up with. and no, you cannot win because just when you get the hang of this, she'll start crying that you no longer care about her).

Shit tests and balance the beta. MMSLP has instructions on this.

She knows in some deep part of her lizardbrain that all she has to do... is gradually slowly make things worse for you and better for her. After all, she'll laugh to herself... what are you gonna do, leave?

You keep some dread. Humans go ape for things they cannot have. Make sure she see's her friends flirting with you.

[–]thebalrog_ofmorgoth 1 point2 points  (9 children)

if she is dead-set on getting married, I think that highlights that she may not be as quality of a woman as you might've thought.

This just doesn't make sense. It's been said time and again on this sub that it is in the best interest of a woman to get married. Every woman with a half-decent relationship with her father has been told to never give up her pussy unless she is married to a good man. We also know they don't always follow daddy's advice.

But I would consider it a sign that I have, in fact, found an intelligent woman with self respect if she insists on marriage. I sure as shit would, if I were a woman.

If I happen to be with a woman who is just fine with starting a family without a ring (i.e. following her biological imperative and making sure her children are provided for by me) i would be seriously suspicious of her quality.

[–]rednukleus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you. Women following the prevailing culture? Not a shock there, nor a sign of low quality at all.

I will get married because I want to have a good relationship with both my and her families. There is no way to have both my nuclear family and the support of the extended family without marriage. To have kids outside of wedlock and remain unmarried would drive away both her and my families. We would be forever ostracized.

Nothing can change this fact. I value family and I want to raise my children in the context of a healthy relationship with the extended family. Marriage is the only way.

I've said all this many times but have never received a reply from TRP other than to give up the idea of a harmonious nuclear + extended family relationship. No, I will not. I value this goal above all others.

[–]getfuckingreal 1 point2 points  (1 child)

People mostly misunderstand common law marriage. If you present yourself as married for a period of time, you can become common law married. Living together and raising children do not lead to common law marriage unless you present yourself as married.

[–]4delicioustreats 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In Canada you become common law with 6 months of cohabitation. Then you can have alimony and child support payments. Even for kids that are not yours-- not just paternity fraud, even if you live with a Mom with a 8 yr old for 6 months you can end up paying.

[–]TheRedPillMan1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Listen everybody can have his own opinion. I don't blame guys for not getting married but just don't pretend that it's the better solution than getting married.

For instance what stops your unmarried SO from leaving your ass with the kids to go live with her parents while you pay for the kids? What stops her from bringing a guy to the house you're renting together so that she can fuck him all day while pissing you off?

[–]Glenbert 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There have been a lot of posts lately addressing...

Is this not the very definition of concern trolling?

[–]CanadianMastermind 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm not a legal expert by any means, and I know it varies from region to region, but most places in North America there's very little difference between 1) being married, and 2) being common law.

In my province, for example, you will be declared common law after living together for 24 months and satisfying a few other criteria (sharing expenses, clearly displaying to others that you're a "couple" and not just roommates, etc). After that, you're eligible for 50/50 split of resources upon separation, just as if you had been married.

So you can't escape the drawbacks of marriage just by not getting married. In most places, you'll have to do a lot more than that. Never having kids with someone, not living with them, not sharing expenses, etc. Because if you do those things, you'll be declared common law and will essentially be married in the eyes of the law.

[–]javi404 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Glad I don't live in one of those fucked up jurisdictions.


[–]BCFtrip 3 points4 points  (2 children)

One of the points of this sub is thinking for yourself realistically, you can decide what to do. Very few commands should be given here.

[–]2Overkillengine 5 points6 points  (1 child)

One of the other points is relaying pragmatic information instead of misleading people.

So a "command" not to mislead others about the risks/rewards of marriage for men is apropos.

[–]BCFtrip 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What I'm speaking negatively about was the marriage challenges, not advice about avoiding it.

[–][deleted] 2 points2 points

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[–]2Overkillengine 2 points3 points  (15 children)

Yes. Do it outside of the marriage contract.

It's a fucking piece of paper, it is not magically empowered with "good environment for kids".

[–][deleted] 2 points2 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]2Overkillengine 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Children need the security of stable parents.

That can be done without the piece of paper. The piece of paper alone does nothing to provide that.

Piece. Of. Paper.

[–]Sesa_Refum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You know those big-ass animals, tigers or w/e, that will dig their sharp claws into prey to take them down, but then its those claws that are nice and curled at the tips so they tear a phat joo¢y chunk of flesh back out of whatever gazal or cantelope they decided to fuck up that day?

Getting married is letting a woman sink her claws into you and then praying they won't pull out

[–]WingsnLV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who gives a shit? Marry, don't marry. It's up to the man to decide what is best for his own life. If you are making this decision based on feedback from strangers on the internet you have more that child support and alimony to worry about.

[–]PlanB_pedofile 0 points1 point  (1 child)

We need posts for the already married man though. Some are currently shit deep with 10 years in a marriage with kids. Go back 10 years and they would of foregone the whole marriage deal.

Thing is, red pill deals with is you cannot undo the past. What happened has happened. You're married now. You're fucked for life. Now lets take back control of the ship and at least navigate this better.

Young men in your teens and twenties. CONGRATS! You all have advanced knowledge and red flags to avoid these traps. You know what older men had to look up to in our pre marriage days? Al Bundy. Married with Children was pretty much a comedy show with underlying redpill truths.... even playboy Hugh Hefner got married.

So for the married posts on here. This is for those who put the ring on years ago and need navigation for this modern shit world.

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