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Red Pill Theory"The Friendzone is an Insult"; an alternative view (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by myupvoterforme

This post is regarding a previous post by /u/Dark-Ulfberht called "The Friendzone is an Insult". I originally posted this with a direct link to the thread but it was hastily removed as apparently linking to other Reddit posts is not allowed. My mistake. I feel my response merits its own post rather than a reply on the thread itself. I hope you agree.

A tl:dr of his logic is the following: When a woman who you wish to engage with sexually rejects your advances and only offers friendship i.e. The Friendzone, you should see this as an insult and cut her out your life. She does not believe you are good enough and that she could do better.

The vast majority of his logic and analysis is sound and exhibits some core TRP principles. It is true that when a woman friendzones you, she does not see you as good enough for her. In response, you must ensure that you have nothing to do with this woman. Reject the offer of friendship, not necessarily vocally, and continue living your life without her.

The part of his analysis that I take issue with, is where he states that you should be insulted by women who reject you. I'm not sure about you, but to me being insulted implies that you're bitter, and that it is somehow her fault she rejected you. I disagree with this.

Being bitter and insulted by rejection is indicative of someone still in the "anger phase" of TRP digestion. It could even be seen as needy, Beta type behavior; being hurt and insulted by one woman's rejection demonstrates that you have invested too much, emotionally on this woman. You are quite clearly not outcome independent nor are you displaying abundance mentality.

Don't get me wrong, the anger phase is a very natural, expected, and important part of swallowing TRP. Angrily rejecting the offer of friendship will, indeed, stop you from falling into the trap of the friendzone, but everyone here should be striving to move past the anger phase, accept the world for what it is, and focus on self-improvement. The thread entitled "Feminists and women have already won. Let them have their prize" by /u/RPB1 perfectly encapsulates the attitude I'm advocating.

Let me be crystal clear:

She has examined you. You have been weighed, and you have been found not worthy. And this. Is. Entirely. Your. Fault. She has her standards and you do not meet them. It is not her fault that she holds such standards. This is what biology and societal conditioning has told her she is worth.

Your job as a TRP man, is to understand this and develop yourself into a man who does reach these standards i.e. A man in the top 5-10% of the population. This is achieved by advancing through your career, building a better body at the gym, learning game, learning new skills, becoming a more rounded and interesting human being and learning to stick to your guns and hold your motherfucking frame.

Once you achieve this and meet her standards, an equal relationship where both people involved get the sex they want from the each other can be formed. One woman's rejection will not matter to you. Your abundance mentality will ensure that you are outcome independent and not feel insulted when you are, inevitably, rejected from time-to-time. If you develop yourself to such an extent that you convincingly surpass her standards, you can attempt to spin plates. That is, sleeping with her while openly sleeping with other women.

Blaming the woman and being insulted by her rejection serves only as an effective temporary measure to ensure you avoid engaging in a one-sided relationship a.k.a. "The friendzone". Not that we care, but being insulted by offers of just friendship directly supports the blue pill narrative that red pillers are "whiney losers who feel entitled to sex" and who can blame them for thinking that when a females rejection is met with bitterness and hostility?

tl:dr It's your fault you don't meet her standards, not hers. Move on and build yourself as a man, so that you not only meet women's expectations, but exceed them.

Feel free to comment and critique.

P.s. This is my throwaway account. I would never post on TRP with my main account as I like to browse and occasionally comment on other subreddits that hate TRP. I keep the two distinct.

Edit: It being your "fault" isn't necessarily a negative thing. You can replace the word fault with responsibility and the message would remain the same.


[–][deleted] 206 points207 points  (26 children)

Perfectly agree, with one minor comment: the woman's "examination" of you is not rational but purely emotional. Her "standards" are not rooted in logic. Accordingly, you can lift, learn game, earn money, know how to hold frame and pass shit tests to increase the chances of her being attracted to you but the outcome is still not guaranteed. This may be no-one's fault.

[–][deleted] 54 points55 points  (8 children)

Agreed. You own your actions, but you do not own reality. It is not your fault that there are a lot of wannabe princesses out there with delusions of grandeur that are not warranted.

[–]MarinTaranu 6 points7 points  (7 children)

Life is not entirely deterministic. A lot of it comes down to chance.

There are many fallacies in bite-size words of wisdom. Case in point: "you are crazy to repeat the same action that led to failure many times before."

This is false on two counts:

1 - the more you hammer at a wall, the more likely it is for the next blow to break through, as the entire system has been continuously weakened.

2 - Life is dymanic. If you don't know all the parameters relevant to the system you are approaching, you have no idea if the net result will be the same (failure) or not (success). For example, you keep on hitting on this girl many times but you encounter resistance. Till one day, you have resounding success. Unknown to you, she may have said yes because (guess) you didn't use deodorant that day, letting a stream of pheromones to fly free, or maybe she had a bad experience with another guy, which put you, by comparison, in a favorable light, or maybe it was that time of the month and she just needed to get stuffed by any random guy (yes, Virginia, this is a common occurrence)

So, according to my theory, I suggest a person accept the Friendzone Status, but expend very little energy in trying again at a later time.

[–]Endorsed ContributorInvalidity 4 points5 points  (6 children)

When you remain "friends" with a girl, you will forever be compartmentalized into that category, so as long as you maintain that connection with the person.

The friendzone is a tag that a girl applies to you, but ultimately, it is your choice whether you accept the title or not. If you reject the title, you sever the link. But at the same time, you are firmly establishing that you will not accept such a lowly position.

That may or may not entitle you to some immediate benefits, but what it ensures is that you will not be locked in to that role permanently.

It's not unheard of that a friendzoned person gets to have sex with the girl, but he only gets sex in rare instances wherein there is a dramatic shift in her equilibrium (her relationship ends, she suffers some severe trauma, etc.). You have a better shot to get more constant sex from her if you disconnect yourself entirely, and re-approach at a later time.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 5 points6 points  (1 child)

compartmentalized into that category forever

As much as they pretend not to be judgmental, they are. And they have you pegged in the first few minutes.

I posted this a while back: Within the first 5 minutes, she already has you pegged as Lover, Loser, Provider, or Friend. She either wants to fuck your Alpha dick, ignore you as if you didn't exist, own your Provider ass, or friend-zone you for non-sexual benefits.

[–]1independentmale 1 point2 points  (0 children)

they have you pegged in the first few minutes.

This is not particularly a bad thing. I generally know within the first few seconds whether I'd fuck a girl or not. Usually long before she even opens her mouth.

Once we begin to interact with one another, her behavior and mannerisms can change my position, though usually only in one direction: From a yes to a no. It is extremely rare for a no to change into a yes.

It's all about attraction. Either she has what I'm looking for or she doesn't. Women aren't all that different in this regard. I can't imagine ever taking offense to a woman not being interested in me. You can't negotiate attraction and everyone has their own particular tastes. I could be doing everything right for girl x and simultaneously be entirely unacceptable for girl y. This is ok.

Where women cross the line is when they play interested and lead a guy on to extract favors from him.

[–]MarinTaranu 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Just because you are in friendzone does not mean that you cannot chase others. The more you interact with, the better your chances of scoring are, right? And your friend may observe this and reconsider.

[–]Endorsed ContributorInvalidity 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Just because you are in friendzone does not mean that you cannot chase others.

Your logic isn't wrong, but it precludes that there is something beneficial to being in the friendzone. The attention you may receive in return is superficial and insignificant to what she will likely want from you (your attention, your gifts, etc.).

The more you interact with, the better your chances of scoring are, right?

That is actually untrue. If you don't see visible indicators of scoring within the first moments, you're not likely to be scoring in the future. Hell, you may lie in wait to get sex from her once her equilibrium shifts (as I mentioned above), but you could also set yourself up for frequent sex with said individual by removing her identifier of you.

They say, let your ego go so that you may gain some ground with women. But I'm left to argue: what good is the sex, if there is no passion? If she fucks all those other guys with more lust and intimacy and then she fucks you like a stiff, who is getting the better end of the deal?

The problem for most men is this: any sex is good sex. But men with options know this: there is bad sex, good sex and better sex.

And your friend may observe this and reconsider.

They certainly may.

[–]MarinTaranu 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think that as we get older, we become more selective, as we progress through careers and gain experience, right? Everyone must start at zero. The game you need as a college student is not necessarily the game you need at 50. I agree with you, there is bad sex out there. I married bad sex, a zero, if you can believe it, but my FWB, even though she is not a supermodel, is the best. She doesn't give in easily (mostly because of work schedule), but when she does, it's a no holds barred event.

[–]Endorsed ContributorInvalidity 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She gives you sex. Your "friendship" can work. That is not the friendzone, an area where sex is taboo and your only role is to worship her footsteps.

There are men actually in the zone I just described, and PLENTY at that.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 34 points35 points  (3 children)

Fair point.

But pushing yourself to become a better man certainly narrows this illogical margin, no doubt.

[–]UndesirableFarang 38 points39 points  (1 child)

Better man or a better clown. Game has two key components. Improving your core value as a man is one of them. However, it's also essential to learn how to be a skilled clown who can entertain women in ways they need in order for them to agree to sleep with you. This latter part is not necessarily making yourself a better man except for achieving that narrow goal.

[–]DannyDemotta 19 points20 points  (0 children)

TLDR - Put on your Red shoes and dance

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't understand how taking on burdens that aren't yours make you better man. It might make you a stupid man.

Not everything is your fault. But if you recognize that you did something that turned her off, it's your fault. You can learn from it.

[–]1rife_omeqa 8 points9 points  (0 children)

"It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose, that is not a failing, that is life".
- Picard

[–]john1443 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Her "standards" are not rooted in logic.

While she does not give much conscious thought to why she feels attracted toward a man, it's still logical, because it follows a pattern. The outcome is never guaranteed in anything that is of relevance in life, be it a career, relationships or whatever. However, as you said, you can increase your odds significantly.

[–]through_a_ways 3 points4 points  (0 children)

While she does not give much conscious thought to why she feels attracted toward a man, it's still logical, because it follows a pattern.

True, but while both male and female modes of attraction are logical, they are different. Female attraction is more complex and "fluid".

A good way to think of it is this:

if female satisfies P(x) (physical attractiveness), then A(x) (she is attractive) is satisfied.

if male satisfies S(x) (social attractiveness), then A(x) he is attractive) is satisfied.

The difference here is that P(x) is a function of much fewer variables than S(x), and also that those variables are much less subject to change.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

You cannot control people's irrational emotional judgements, hence you should remain stoic and not be bothered by them as they are completely out of your control .

[–]omnicidial 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Who cares. She doesn't have to or need to fuck me. She just needs to provide me with value.

I don't have a lot of friends period that I don't enjoy in some way, and it doesn't mean I have to fuck them to enjoy them.

[–]Massiveshitlord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Completely agree with this. It could be something as minor as them not finding your face to their preferred preference or finding you unattractive in general physically, even if by most people's standards you are in fact attractive. It happens and it's no one's fault, so who cares.

[–]ReddishBlack 3 points4 points  (1 child)

The biological selection urges that women possess do have merit in selecting superior men. Who would you trust to run the show, a wavering passive-aggressive beta, or a socially and physically dominant alpha.

It is not a logical process on their part, thus it is not as noble to our intellectual fetishising culture, but it has gotten the job done over the course of our existence.

[–]through_a_ways 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The biological selection urges that women possess do have merit in selecting superior men.

I'm of the opinion that, much like our primitive urges to eat calorically dense foods and put off work, our sexual preferences are maladaptive to the environment we're currently living in.

Big butts/hips and very tall heights are associated with lower metabolic output, and (in the case of the latter, although possibly the former as well) shorter lifespan.

In a civilization like ours, the most neotenous traits are the most adaptive. I think a lot of the hypersexual female beauty standards we're seeing today, along with a lot of the unreasonably hypergamous male "social beauty" standards are maladaptive in the context of a stable civilized society where food is not a worry.

Of course, those preferences have been getting more and more exaggerated over the last few decades. Look at girls in the 80s vs. girls today--thin, elegant women vs. total fatasses. Even the girls in Sir Mixalot's video were downright average or below average compared to today's women.

The ecological indicators aren't good--bee and butterfly populations, at least in North America, have fallen so low that average joes are actually noticing their absence. I could go on about a bunch of other shit, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if our recently hypersexualized preferences were in anticipation of some sort of catastrophic event.

[–]ioncloud9 2 points3 points  (0 children)

sometimes there are "deal breakers." What they could be are entirely up to how she feels in that moment about you. Sometimes they can be overcome if you give her the tingles, other times you come up short, and other times there is just nothing you can do about it. The constructive thing to do would be to weed out the last category as early on as possible.

[–]That_Othr_Guy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

In the original thread, the author clearly states that the girl had known him for a vast majority of his life. So her decision was both rational and emotional.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

yep, just like the woman married for 20 years to a man know him so well that she makes the rational decision to divorce him after he turns BB... /s

[–]FrankWG 103 points103 points [recovered]

She doesn't like you, move on. Insult, LOL. Who gives a shit.

Stop going around spiting words like "unworthy".
Unworthy of what, her maiden hand? What the fuck are we here, neckbeards calling each other sir?

Guy wants to fuck Chick, Chick doesn't like him, proposes friendship instead.
Wanna be her friend, don't want to be her friend, just decide and let go of this fucking bitterness. Your worth has nothing to do with whether Chick wants you. Seriously? Wasn't this /r/TRP?

Note: I might sound harsh, but I'm not trying to attack OP - the "you" I'm writing to is anybody who thinks in those terms.
I'm trying to help. We keep spewing around words like abundance and IDGAF and then waste thousands of words in theoretical discussions about the sociological implication of the friendzone. Fuck that shit.

Also, being rejected with "no, but let's be friends" is not being friendzoned. The so called friendzone is a limbo in which a "man" acts like a friend because he thinks things will progress on their own towards a romantic relationship. Then, when they actually make a move, the woman is flabbergasted: but we're friends!, she says, and she's goddamn right.
It's something man do to themselves, not something evil, evil women do to them.

EDIT: Also, I've been there, where a female friend makes a move and puts you in a very shitty situation. It's not a great place to be, and it's not something a friend who respects you does. So, fuck that shit. You want to fuck her? Let her know in 15 minutes. Otherwise, you are bringing it on yourself.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

You haven't been harsh or attacked me at all.

I use the term "unworthy" from the women's perspective. The man in question is not worthy of a sexual relationship with herself, for whatever reason that may be. I, personally, am not calling anyone unworthy. I should have made that clearer.

I'd agree with your definition of friendzone, but I think the general TRP consensus is that it's not possible for men and women to be in purely platonic relationships. That's a whole other debate that I'm not interesting in going into at this point, though.

[–]KarmaKash 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I completely agree that bitterness should be left out. It shows a lack of self confidence imo. Where I don't agree is with this being "your" fault. In some cases this may be but maybe she isn't into you for silly reasons like your voice reminds her of her brother or maybe you just aren't as attractive to her as others find you. Maybe she isn't ok with you seeing other people. I find some women average that my friends think are knockouts.

My point is not to worry about it because you'll never know why. No need to be bitter and no need to think you're not worthy. If you're happy with yourself you'll move on and not think about her again unless you want to be friends, which if fine too.

[–]foldpak111 3 points4 points  (0 children)

One girl can think you're a creep and a loser, and the next can think you're cool.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

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[–]omnicidial 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Disconnect the personal disappointment from getting a no and move the fuck on is the only way to find the yes.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]RichardPalma -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Prefect comment, too bad people here don't want to listen.

[–]Kaelteth 50 points51 points  (2 children)

I disagree to an extent.

I do agree that The Friendzone is being found not worthy.

I disagree that this is entirely our fault though too. Yes, if you're a fat beta schlub then yeah, its (probably) your fault. But it's not your fault that one particular bitch doesn't want to fuck you.

What's more important is the realization that this one single slut isn't worth your energy, anger, and frustration. The answer is simple...

Move on to the next woman.

If this one doesn't want you, good fucking riddance. The next one...or the one after that...will.

There is no way you are going to fucking bed 100% of women you try to, no matter how muscular and alpha you are. And who cares? There are plenty of whores to slobber your knob. Move on to that one.

[–]1kick6 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's still your fault. It's just inconsequential.

[–]mercuryg 8 points8 points [recovered]

My thoughts exactly when reading that post, insult is the wrong word, because the LJBF is first and foremost a rejection. It is not a genuine offer of friendship, it is not an insult, it is not a shit test (granted it could be, but even then it's a rejection at face value), it is a rejection.

That's why insult is the wrong word, because it implies that you should be insulted by rejection, which is ridiculous. Are you insulted every time you're rejected? That sounds exhausting, are you not getting rejected on a regular basis? You fucking should be.

At the end of the day, when you're rejected she thinks she can do better, a rejection is 100% rooted in that thought, now the idea of being insulted by a thought is stupid, especially something as vapid and unstable as a woman's thought.

[–]copralalic 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Last time I was out with a wingman I hit on three women.

1) One was a grenade, I don't even count that as a rejection.

2) One was an attempted plate (divorced mom, age appropriate) -- got the number but follow-up would have been too much work, therefore if there was a rejection it was me rejecting her.

3) One was a girl dancing provocatively with her girlfriend -- tried to go up and dance with her, but she rejected me flatly suggesting that I was too old. No problem, move along, she did me a favor.

So, I consider it a successful night, despite two out of three rejections. If I had persisted with the grenade I could have gotten somewhere, but the younger woman was a flat-out "no". Learn from it, move along, no need to dwell, no need to feel "insulted".

edit: I think the grenade rejected me because my asshole characteristic was too strong. The whole point of the grenade maneuver is to flatter them, so asshole tactics are less likely to be effective.

[–]Futdashukup 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I remember being friendzoned at college by a stone cold fox who I had admired from afar, and who actually came to my dorm and invited, cold, to go to a club with her. When she found out what an inexperienced dweeb I was, she friendzoned me. Initially I was crushed, but looking back, I can see that my personality didn't match my appearance. I am 6ft5in and pretty mean looking. But back then, I was...a kid. A nice pussy. They like A MAN.

[–]redarkane 10 points11 points  (1 child)

I think people should just stop giving a fuck what women want and just live their life how they want it. It pains me to see that a lot of men have to jump through hoops just to attract women.. Whether it be thorough wealth, physical body, etc. This life is so damn short, why do we have to devote it to appeasing someone else?

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a perfectly valid line of reasoning. If that's your prerogative then go MGTOW and stay that way indefinitely.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Good post. IMO, the main problem with the original post was that OP invested too much into one girl, which is probably why he reacted the way he did.

Even the top players don't bat 1.000. Abundance mentality is key. If you get rejected, move on, learn from the experience, tighten up your game and keep approaching until you reach your goal.

A related point, the FriendZone is a self-inflicted situation. If a guy orbits a girl who ain't giving it up to him, that's on him.

[–]RPIreland 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Really the so called friend zone doesn't exist. There is an attraction zone and a no attraction zone. If she was attracted to you she wouldn't care about how long or how good of friends ye were, she will fuck you.

You can make yourself more attractive and get into the attraction zone and really that is all that is happening when guys say they have "escaped" the friendzone.

Only thing I am not sure of is whether it was women who invented this to make themselves feel better about rejecting guy or if guys did to make themselves feel better about being rejected.

[–]gjarreau 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it is more of a direct observation of orbiters and their lack of fulfillment.

[–]justmanthings 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I just think of it like this:

A man likes to have sex with many women. A variety. A small percentage of women will be LTR potential.

A woman likes to get commitment from many men. A variety. A small percentage of these men are men she will want to have sex with.

Sex is to men, what commitment is to women.

[–]RedPillProphet 9 points10 points  (2 children)

I think there is more to this phenomenon than "you didn't get the tingles going". Relevant story ahead.

Until a few months ago I had never been friendzoned. I tend to be a ridiculously direct, no-bullshit communicator. Then I met this girl via my roommate. She was immediately into me so I asked her out. Things were progressing really quickly but I got distracted by another prettier girl and went no contact for a few days. Suddenly I get a huge wall of text saying how she isn't ready for a relationship and we are better off as friends... keep in mind I haven't talked to her in like 3 days. This made little sense to me but I cheerfully encouraged her open communication (even though we were never friends). After that she found any excuse to come over to my place, sometimes brought little thoughtful gifts, it became ridiculous.

In this case she used friend-zoning as a preemptive strike to save her ego from the rejection that she clearly saw coming.

[–]krustytheclown2 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Huh, that is interesting. I can defintely see a woman doing that but what doesn't make sense is why she started to give you gifts and come over. Did she turn into a FWB kind of thing? Just trying to figure out her rationale.

[–]RedPillProphet 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I had given her no clear indication of disinterest. It seemed she was trying to gauge if it could still slowly evolve into a relationship.

I think this because she kept contact for a while and would ping me all the time despite being ignored. Then one day I said "I think relationships are overrated". She got quite upset and that was the last time she contacted me lol.

[–]ZackCross 8 points9 points  (5 children)

Fuck woman's standards.
I live by my own pride, I don't need some bitch validating me as a man.
I know what I'm worth, she can think whatever she wants, but at the end of the day nobody's opinion of me matters but my own.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I'm delighted for you.

I hope for your sake what you've said is more than empty rhetoric.

[–]ZackCross 7 points8 points  (2 children)

I write this at my second gym session this day, we men must work for what we want.
Which is why I say don't let the opinions of anyone, let alone a woman who has not the slightest clue what hard work truly is, affect the opinion you have of yourself.
There are billion of them and one of me.

[–]redarkane 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good on you man. I'm trying to live by that rule as well. The only real opinion that matters most in this world about yourself ideally should be yours.

[–]my_redpill_account 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Agreed. My philosophy is: the only person who puts themselves in the friend zone is you.

It's less of an insult, more of a "wake up call" (if you can even call it that). It's just a rejection as a reminder to keep on improving.

Well written post OP. thank you.

[–]1ErasmusOrgasmus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Whilst I appreciate the effort that goes into posts like this, we don't even need posts on the friendzone because it is so overwhelmingly simple.

When a girl responds to your advances by saying she wants to be friends, there is only one correct response: 'No, I want all or nothing.' Then walk away. Obviously the wording can vary as you please but the message cannot. You must exit the interaction and your entire relationship with this girl calmly and assume that all contact with her is over forever. By doing this you enjoy 2 prime benefits - you avoid the hopeless hope of the friendzone and you give yourself the best chance that her perception of you may change favourably as a direct result of your refusal to be friendzoned. In this case, calmly and immediately quitting the game is by far your best chance to win it.

[–]foldpak111 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Is there an lol phase. Because I think it's hilarious when a girl tries to friendzone me, after learning the psychology behind.

[–]1whatsazipper 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Context is key. If she's friendzoning you because she thinks you're a pussy, and is actively trying to make you a beta orbiter, then yes, it's an insult if you have a functioning brain.

[–]LeGrandDiableBlanc 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It is better said that you insult yourself by willfully staying in the friend zone.

It's not worth even the minimal time or effort necessary to feel like shes insulting you with rejection. But if you stay involved with her, you're telling yourself, "I don't deserve to be around people who value me."

[–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman 5 points6 points  (2 children)

The friendzone is an insult - not because of the rejection included, but usually because off the unspoken "you can be by lowly servant and you have to appreciate that offer"-expectation that comes with it.

Assuming the offer of friendship isn't just pleasantry on her part to avoid appearing impolite.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Disagree. There are, of course, exceptions to what I'm about to say and I understand that all women have the propensity to act as you say but....

The offer of friendship by a women in replace of sex is not some thinly veiled attempt to reduce you to the role of a servant. That sounds like paranoid talk.

In the majority of cases women will offer friendship, as you say, as a pleasantry and because it's the most they're willing to offer you. From my experience most women don't actually mind if you politely reject their offer. After all, people only value things/people that stand to benefit them in someway.

A women's rejection is one of the most honest things you will ever hear her say.

[–]1Dark-Ulfberht 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I actually don't disagree with this. (I wrote the post you're responding to.)

I never said it was her fault. In fact, throughout my responses, I mentioned multiple times that it was my own fuck up.

But, you learn this stuff by doing, not by reading TRP on the internet. I fucked up many, many more times after this. But, over time I learned a lot of lessons.

Over time, rejections became humorous. It started happening at about the Magic Number 20. Hell, I've had drinks poured on my head by women where my efforts failed, and have been sucker-punched by some chick's boyfriend as my efforts were succeeding. When those things happened, I wasn't bitter. I thought it was great! These were memorable experiences! I don't remember the majority of the women I've slept with, but I sure as shit remember bar fights and drinks poured on my head because I really pushed some buttons.

The story in question took place when I was like 20 or so; I had not yet really figured things out. It was an anecdote about a step along the path.

Anger was helpful then, but it gave way to discipline over time, which is just a lot more useful in general.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed! I thought you wouldn't disagree. I just wanted to make the distinction very clear. You're post still offers invaluable advice!

[–]Jack_Wellington 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Women are brainwashed and all want the top alpha male even though most are not on that level. Be the best you can be and treat girls like an airport limo driver.

[–]BroccoBaba 1 point2 points  (0 children)

its just: most men want to fuck as many women as possible (doesnt matter who) and then settle for one. most women want to fuck top guys only, before settling for an average joe

[–]omnicidial 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Shorten this a lot. Friendzone can be a soft no, you might be able to turn it into a yes, and in sales a lead is a lead.

Trp at its essence is going to the pure sales relationship between that transaction, and a lead is a lead.

I also have a couple female friends I randomly stay with that put their friends on me, so sometimes it isn't a "plate" (I don't love the term) it's a "lead source."

[–]gjarreau 1 point2 points  (0 children)

About the comment "It's your fault you don't meet her standards, not hers." That can be the case, but not always. Suppose she finds out I have an inheritable disease and dumps me, or she only dates Irishmen. These things aren't my fault.

[–]Twittermon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

she rejected you but it's not her fault But it is her fault, she was the direct causation of you 2 not being together. If she would have said yes, than it is her fault you 2 are together.

It's not like it's a bad thing that she rejected you and it's her fault, it's just she doesn't like you, plain and simple. You think "fault" is a bad word, but tis the same as cause and effect.

[–]cbnyc0 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That first post rubbed me the wrong way, and I didn't immediately understand why. I'm glad you were able to address the issue. There was an underlying anger and cynicism that didn't work within my understanding of the stoic nature of TRP philosophy.

[–]WerewolfofWS 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Also, I think that it should be noted: Women enjoy putting men in the friendzone covertly in order to extract as much utility as they can (gifts, labor, etc.) whilst they knowingly understand said beta makes them dryer than the Mohave desert. Don't fall into the trap of being used and exploited. By now, everyone on this sub should know that women HATE nice guys sexually (it is in their DNA)...and totally undermines the whole feminist ideology. Caren Staughn had a great video about this. I encourage you to listen to it on youtube.

[–]juanqunt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with you mostly, but you should neither blame her or yourself though. Rejection is simply a life experience and often it's luck based. Even the best entrepreneurs do not succeed at ever venture. Her choice of rejecting you could very well be situational or that she's simply irrationally hamstering. So simply disregard and move on.

If you can tell the signs of when to cut your losses early, you won't be in any friendzone. There are only acquaintances and sex partners.

[–]George_l_rockwell 2 points3 points  (5 children)

She has examined you. You have been weighed, and you have been found not worthy. And this. Is. Entirely. Your. Fault.

I'd say this is going too far sometimes, and that there are definitely cases of "different strokes for different folks". Everybody has their preferences, and it's not always your fault that some girls simply seem to have a certain type. An example being a girl I knew who basically only dated stoners. I had no idea why that was the case, seeing as how there were plenty of Chads out there ready to bang her.

[–]Riddick_ 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Mostly this. Girls date stoners for the simple reason that they come with a supply / full bag and a network of "dealers", at least 3 sources. She never has to pay for the product or go through the trouble of getting it. BF will willing share stuff bong anytime for her, because vagina. She is more interested in getting high, then anything this dude has to offer.

And she may upgrade to one of his friends, that is better looking, better hipster status, etc has a car to get to those outdoor parties, or hookup with someone from a related social circle aka "we just met at this party, and he's a great guy... bla bla bla".

[edit]: Chad did not come w a big bag or year supply. She wanted to get high, not to get laid. Mostly a convenience thing for the female. Where she can trade her "value" for product, and not feel that bad about it. Unknowingly she is doing the qualification rounds for Scallywag status.

Source: I have seen this first hand at work in College. Not my type.

[–]George_l_rockwell 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Hence why I never share any substances that I own with girls. Smoking weed or dropping acid and jacking off is way more fun than 15 minutes with some bitch.

[–]GC0W30 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The problem with giving women your weed is not the cost or hassle of replacing it; the problem is that you are setting yourself up to be BB.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

This is a fair criticism. But I think it can be reconciled by a change in wording and clarification on my part.

Even if you are simply not her type, which is quite possible, I maintain that it's your fault she's rejected your sexual advances. You have chosen to come across the way you do i.e. not a stoner. It is not her fault she likes stoners.

When I use the word "fault" it doesn't necessarily imply you've done anything wrong.

I hope that makes sense.

[–]George_l_rockwell 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I understand what you were trying to say now.

[–]PlusGoody 1 point2 points  (2 children)

It doesn't have to be either/or.

It is 100% your fault when you are offered the POST-play Friendzone: you should have been more attractive and/or more effective in your play to a mentally sound woman, or should have known to say away from the kind of women whose attraction meters are broken.

But it IS an insult for a woman >seriously< to believe that you are the kind of man who would accept the post-play friendzone, even if she's not attracted to you ... because it means she thinks that in addition to breaching one of her minimum attraction lines, she also thinks that you are general pussy. Key thing here is "seriously" -- the pro-forma offer of the friendzone is just being polite, but if you have any alpha qualities she fully expects you to decline, and isn't offended when you do.

Note that none of this applies to the pre-play Friendzone. That's just hamstering 101.

[–]Libertarian-Party 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why would it be an insult? Shes done the same thing to dozens of beta orbiters, and if she friendzoned you, she sees you as jusg another one. In this case, its 90% the guys fault for presenting himself as such.

[–]copralalic -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

But it IS an insult for a woman >seriously< to believe that you are the kind of man who would accept the post-play friendzone

This is a very strong point. Best to not dwell on the insult, though, but use it as a motivator to improve.

[–]SupALupRT 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I didnt care for that post either. Anything that shifts blame/responsibility away from you isn't my cup of tea. In a way you should be insulted but not blame the woman if that makes sense. We don't want to bang ugly/fat chicks, if she doesn't find herself sexually attracted to you how is that her fault at all?

I never really had the anger phase though, I've always been good with logic and putting myself in the other sides shoes. Its a lost art.

[–]TRPMackDaddy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Its all about how you handle the situations life presents to you.

Getting friend zoned from a HB you are trying to lay is obviously not a desirable outcome and will usually bring up feeling of rejection and bitterness for most males. But remember you must adopt an IDGAF attitude with situations like these. Most of time you would just next the girl and not even give it a second thought while you pursue others. Instead of taking this route, I have learned to embrace certain friend zoned situations. As hard as it has been and is still for me, I try to take a more Machiavellian approach and ask myself 'Do I obtain any value in remaining friends with her?' Most of the time it is a resounding no because most girls are so goddamn boring when you actually sit down and get to know them but there are those girls out there that can bring something to the table even as just friends. And it can truly be anything from being introduced to more of her inner circle and friends who may bring further value to yourself to monetary things such as reduced prices at the place she works or being able to be introduced to more business contacts.

I wanted to write more but im running late for a family function so ill end it here.

Basically, be an opportunist at every opportunity when the situation presents value to you.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the word we are looking for is indignation. But the indignation should have two impacts on you 1- inspire you to work on your game. 2. get over yourself. While its her loss, you have to realize your not going to win them all.

This will be an oversimplification, but there are some girls you are never going to win. Some chicks only want black dudes. Some chicks want white dudes. Some chicks will never get out of their race. Long story short, there are some girl you will never have (race aside). It may be race, it may be your job. It may be that you have to shave your head. What cha going to do? cry?

[–]Lord-Segaris 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed, reframes the perspective to make it something you can change and improve on.

[–]skoobled 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, but as others are going to say here, you should also not take the rejection to heart because so many modern day women have their SMV totally skewed: ie. being permanently single because they overrate themselves, or because of alpha widow hood

Yes, you can and should improve yourself, but you are still at the mercy of her fickle nature. A better approach, and abundance mentality, is to shrug, decline, and move on. Remember she's the one up against the clock; not you

I think a better reason to be "insulted" by the friendzone is this: when she says she wants to be friends, translate it as follows: "I believe you unworthy of sexual intimacy, however I have noticed that you are otherwise worthy of exploitation and would like you to offer yourself up as such"

If that doesn't rally you all against the FZ permanently, then I know not what else will

[–]MarinTaranu 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Metcalfe's law states that the value of a telecommunications network is proportional to the square of the number of connected users of the system.

Thus, any person would be wise to develop as large a network as they can. "The friend zone" just designates a weak connection, more valuable to the network than no connection at all.

Notice please, how the value of the network increases EXPONENTIALLY.

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[–]LuvBeer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When I go out to pick up, I start from the assumption that the majority of women don't want to have sex with me. If I were to take every rejection as an insult I would spend my whole time being offended, just like some loser SJW.

[–]NeoreactionSafe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Players can fail all her tests and yet STILL get her to Tingle if their Game is good enough.

  • If you want to play fair, then be a true top 10% Alpha.

  • If you want to cheat you can be a zero and get away with it.

.

This is central to PUA strategy... like in Poker you "bluff" with a bad hand.

Women are unable to sense the objective hierarchy, so their hypergamy heuristic is tricked by a fake "up" message.

Does the trick last forever?

No.

[–]asdfghjkltyu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Both sentiments are true. You should make yourself a man that doesn't get friendzoned, but should you get friendzoned regardless you should take it as an attack on character and not something to take sitting down.

[–]johngalt1234 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Attraction is not personal. But eugenic in nature.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I know a lot of people shit on the idea of having female friends here, but they're actually beneficial for meeting new women. I went out with a few female friends the other night with one of my guy friends, before we knew it we were surrounded by chicks (not even kidding).

Plus it makes you look more approachable in social situations for women. You're obviously not a creep if you have some female friends you didn't scare off.

Big deal, some chick wasn't attracted to you.. GET OVER IT. Even good looking guys can't get with every single girl they meet. If you want to get with hotter girls, get in shape, dress well, and live a cool life. That's the reality of it.

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True, you can't be acting like a doormat around them, buying drinks, and "yes-ing" them (agreeing with everything they say; even if you truly don't agree with some things). Just be cool and treat them like a true friend (IE: Don't look at them differently just cause they're a chick, say the same stuff you would around your boys and joke around with her).

[–]greenbananas1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think it's necessarily your fault if she's not into you. You and her might just be incompatible personalities, and no amount of gym and being TRP can ever change that. Furthermore, feeling insulted doesn't exactly mean you're bitter or going through the anger phase; you might just be annoyed that she doesn't see the value in you that other women have seen.

[–]Hedphelym1 0 points1 point  (8 children)

It's not "my fault" though. I can't help it women are only sexually attracted to 10% of the male population.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Replace the word fault with responsibility.

It is your responsibility to be in the top 10%.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

It's partly your fault if you're not in that 10% though.

Obviously you can't help being ugly but apart from that all other attributes of attraction can be developed or acquired.

Money, social status, conversation skills, etc.

[–]Hedphelym1 0 points1 point  (3 children)

That's why i'm getting jaw surgery and hair transplant.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

That seems a little radical. I've never met a balding guy who couldn't cut his losses and just shave everything off.

Jaw surgery is even more radical. How weak/shallow is your jaw?

[–]Hedphelym1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I have a recessed jaw/chin. Currently have invisalign on and have to wait a few months before they can do the procedure.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In which case I hope the operation goes well!

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is pretty stupid. Plenty of beta's are already rich. They acquired wealth through education and hard work. They could also acquire better social skills. They could also learn to dress better. They could learn to talk to women.

I'm not saying it's easy but to just give up and say "I'm a beta I'll always be a beta" is just as stupid as people saying "I'm poor I'll always be poor, no point even trying to better myself".

People can and often do build themselves up as a person.

[–]squarehead93 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think that when the OP of the original thread said you should be insulted when you get friendzoned, it was aimed at the betas and newbies who have been conditioned that the friendzone is a good thing. It's not to encourage them to be bitter. But it's to wake people up to the fact that getting friendzoned is a girl telling you you're not worth having sex with and she only sees you as a validation machine.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Agreed, his post was aimed at newbies. But the fact remains being insulted insinuates blame and bitterness. It's nigh on impossible to separate yourself from there feelings when being insulted.

All it does is leave room in the mans mind to hamster that perhaps "It's not him, it's her".

I don't doubt OPs intentions, I just think it was an over simplistic message with counterproductive repercussions.

[–]Spiral-knight 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why does anything after "just friends" matter. This woman you have approached, presumably for sex has declined. She is no longer of any value whatsoever. This is no different to any other shutdown unless you actively require something from this particular woman

[–]2johnnight 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Move on and build yourself as a man, so that you not only meet women's expectations, but exceed them.

This is still female-centric thinking.

I'm saying: acquire money, fuck escorts.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you wish. I'm not going to deny that I enjoy being desired by women and sleeping with women who really want to sleep with me.

This is a perfectly natural feeling and I'm sure many TRPers feel the same.

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[–]myupvoterforme[S] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

That personal preference I suppose. In my experience friendship groups of girls all tend to go for the same type guys. Meaning if you're not good enough for one of them you're probably not good enough for the others.

Depends how friendly you intend to get. Stay as amicable acquaintances? Sure. That way you're invited to parties and things. Stay as actual friends who spend time hanging out together? No way I'm wasting my time doing that.

[–]through_a_ways 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my experience friendship groups of girls all tend to go for the same type guys. Meaning if you're not good enough for one of them you're probably not good enough for the others.

♬ ♪ If you wanna be my lover, you gotta get with my friends ♫

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/library/articles-commentary-blog/who%E2%80%99s-chasing-whom-impact-gender-and-relationship-status-mate-poaching

[–]copralalic 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yes and no. You need a good and valid reason to not have banged your friend, because otherwise it's negative social proofing. If you want female friends to open your social circles, pick fat and ugly girls. You can actually be good friends to them, helping them improve -- they can become altruistic outlets for you. Just don't get too drunk around them and have a regrettable "incident".

clears throat awkwardkly

[–]spectrum_92 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I totally agree, that post yesterday was ridiculous.

I'd also add that even if you work out, develop skills, further your career, learn game and generally improve yourself into a great man, there's still no guarantee that a particular woman is going to be interested in you. Women, like men, all have their particular tastes, and while you can make yourself more attractive to them, some of them are just never going to be into you. Men are the same way with women, it's no different. Get over it.

[–]RoiMartel -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

It's your fault you don't meet her standards, not hers.

I disagree.

I've been rejected by several women when I was younger who, now married, have wanted to rekindle the relationship if not out and out leave their husbands for me.

Personality-wise I haven't changed much, I'm not in physically better shape than I was at the time and while I have a successful career and and am financially well off now I was, relatively speaking, that way at the time.

I was BP at the time and it crushed me as I was working hard in college and trying to be the perfect provider and mr. nice guy who didn't want to impose my evil male ways (to paraphrase Monty Python "I got better!"). Obviously in hindsight this was AF/BB, except the guys I was dumped for were hardly Alpha - they just happened to provide something that appealed to the girls at the time that I didn't and the girls eventually dumped them, moved on, and in several cases to guys with worse SMV, habits and attitudes.

They rejected me then and are after me now because their value systems are screwed up. That is not MY fault and, in retrospect, I dodged some real bullets!

Now, if your goal is to go after a plate or a one-night stand and she rejects you? Yeah, that's going to be your fault because her judgement of you, at that point in time, didn't pass muster and you couldn't close the deal. That doesn't make you a bad person and I agree that you shouldn't be insulted - You made a shot for the goal and missed. Reset your layup and try again or move on.

TL;DR - Patience young man, if you're worthy she'll come back around but you might not want her at that point. (heh, if only I had had somebody to tell my younger self that...)

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I am not a young man anymore, but thank you.

I'm unconvinced by anything you've said. I'm not even sure I understand exactly what your point is. Could you clarify?

As far as I am concerned, you were rejected by several women when you were younger because you were not up to their standards. It was your fault. Perhaps you weren't fit enough? Rich enough? Charming enough? Funny enough? Stable enough? I don't know why, but you failed. To argue otherwise is hamstering.

They have come back to you now because of one of two reasons (or both). Firstly, your value or SMV is higher now than it was back then, therefore you now meet their standards. However, you've implied that you haven't changed much in all these years so that seems unlikely. Secondly, their standards have dropped, meaning you now meet their standards. This seems more plausible.

[–]RoiMartel -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Oh sure - I agree I wasn't up to their standards at the time and, as I point out later, if my only intention was just to plate them or get a one-night stand it was definitely my fault in not achieving that goal.

And you've already restated my point in your second paragraph - THEIR values changed, their standards dropped meaning I meet their standards now. I guess that's still "my fault" too?

That's my point - If I really want to bang this chick then I just need to change myself enough until I get in her pants (that's simple gaming theory) But if I'm playing the long game for bettering myself, having a future and at the end looking back at my life and being satisfied with it and she can't see that or the effort at the time I was making at the time? That's the fault of her values system - not mine. (Unless you're making a statement on the quality of women I'm seeking out and then you probably have a point! :) )

[–]longerdistance -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not your fault either. Why blame anyone? Just shrug and carry on.

[–]TechnoL33T -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Why is emotional investment bad, and why should I want to spin plates? Why would I do something that I'd be upset about if the shoe was on the other foot?

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Emotional investment is not bad if the person investing in has proven themselves worthy i.e. when you've established that they're faithful and committed to you. Emotional investment is bad if you commit too early.

Spinning plates is great. Having consensual sex with multiple women without having to commit to any of them because you have made it clear you are not exclusive. What's not to love?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Why would I do something that I'd be upset about if the shoe was on the other foot?" That depends on the situation. What exactly were you thinking off?

[–]TechnoL33T 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am exclusive. my goal is not sex with lots of girls. If my SO was spinning any kind of plates, she'd stop being my SO. I'm not about it.

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[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

^ Case in point. Bitterness 101.

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[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

I re-read. You still seem a bit bitter.

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[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If a 6/10 woman is sleeping with a 9/10 man then they are, by definition, in each others leagues.

You are correct to point out that societal conditioning has skewed the ratings.

That is the world we now live in. A 6/10 woman is equal to a 9/10 man. However illogical to us this seems, this is now the reality.

It is a mans responsibility to be the best he can be and reap the benefits. You do this, or remain average and get rejected by women who used to be in your league but are no longer because you do not meet their standards. It's your choice.

Don't wallow in your bitterness trying to deny the reality that we are living in.

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[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No one is saying a 5/10 man can raise himself to be a 9/10 man.

All I have ever argued is that a man should push to be the best he can be and surpass the expectations of as many women as possible.

[–]ActuallyARaptor -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I don't have to be bitter to be insulted. I can easily brush off an insult and continue on merrily.

The point here is I put on my game face for a woman, do everything I, as a male, should do, and she rejects my advances by wanting to be "just friends". What she does with other guys on her own time is her prerogative; take em as they come (no pun intended). Emotions aren't something as tangible as taste but bear with me here. If you tell me you don't like my cooking and refuse to finish your plate, I may feel insulted, but that's because it appears that you're overlooking the effort that went into meal preparation, and that's no part your fault. Although the blame sits on my shoulders for not cooking a meal that's up to your standards, you're the one that's still Gotta eat. I know you'll find a meal elsewhere, likewise I'll find somebody that likes my cooking. No harm no foul

My main point of contention is that being insulted doesn't always go hand in hand with being bitter. Sometimes you gotta take it in stride, but being denied for no good reason other than "I think I can do better" is insulting because there isn't anything better. So she's guaranteed to settle for less

[–]fequ -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

tl:dr It's your fault you don't meet her standards, not hers. Move on and build yourself as a man, so that you not only meet women's expectations, but exceed them.

LOL.

Pussy begging loser.

I will move on and build myself as a man for my own self-esteem, and self-worth. To feel good about myself when I look in the mirror. To feel like I've accomplished and overcome something that was personally challenging.

You can go fuck off with your pussy begging mangina shit.

[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not ashamed to say I enjoy being desired by women. I'm sure your life is extremely challenging and rewarding.

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[–]myupvoterforme[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your contribution.

[–]scarfox1 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

Some people just aren't attracted to others, it's subjective, sometimes subconscious. 9/10 girls could see a guy as a 10, but that other one might just not. Usually for men it's a bit more objective.