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I want to start this out by saying that the female coworker I trained wasn't coasting and she really wanted to learn how to do the job, but most importantly do it right. I had been working for this outfit for about 2 years, and every foreman I had worked with had giving me great reviews. A position opened up which was basically the same thing I had been doing, but instead of residential work, it would be more on the commercial side. This new title came with a substantial pay raise and I made it very clear to my bosses that I wanted the job. A week or so went by and they had me take written tests to see how well I knew everything incumbent to the job, I passed every single test without getting single answer wrong. This job was mine. I busted my ass. Then I get the word that they hired someone to fill the position. I was bummed out to say the least, but to make it worse it was someone with no prior experience and I had to train them on how to do the job. This person happened to be female and day one during training was getting paid almost twice as much as myself. I didn't take it lightly and requested a meeting with my superiors. They told me that it was because a quota for minorities had to be filled (even though the person who left and created the vacancy was a white male) and that I should just keep doing what I have been doing and it will all work out for me. I walked out of that office, thought about it for a minute, walked back in and quit. I got the job I was looking for at a competing company with in a week. Like I said I have nothing against the person who got the job, she was eager to learn and do it the right way, but that doesn't mean I had to take it sitting down.

You don't have to stand and take the bullshit that comes your way.

edit: I want to thank the people who gave me gold. I had no idea this submission was going to get this kind of attention.

[–][deleted] 929 points930 points  (210 children)

What happened was you made yourself too valuable in the position you were in and they did not think you had the balls to quit.

They found out otherwise.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 347 points348 points  (147 children)

Yep, law 46 violation - http://48laws-of-power.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/law-46.html

If you are a "perfect bartender" you will never become bar manager. They'll get someone who's bossy with shittier social skills to be the bar manager. Basically, be good, but not too good. Too good is barely better than too bad. People get jealous, and you will be passed up for promotion by superiors "because you're just so great on the bar earning half the wage you would as bar manager." Be "above average" but never "excellent." Sounds retarded I know, but this is human psychology we're talking about. People think "being the best" will get them all the rewards. Unless you're pioneering new technology, this is wrong.

[–][deleted] 97 points98 points  (116 children)

OP's ultimate action of quitting was however enacting law 20:

Do Not Commit to Anyone

It is the fool who always rushes to take sides. Do not commit to any side or cause but yourself. By maintaining your independence, you become the master of others – playing people against one another, making them pursue you.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 138 points139 points  (115 children)

Their flawed assumption was assuming his commitment to the job was unconditional and that his skills would not attract more lucrative offers should he be open to them. They lost a skilled employee and got an inexperienced one because of affirmative action. That company just became less profitable. I know if I was a shareholder in such a company; I wouldn't be happy seeing my investment behave in this way.

[–][deleted] 60 points61 points  (19 children)

Yeah, that was just poor leadership through and through. People have this sense that employees are easily replaceable, and they are if you have no regard for quality, but good employees are hard to come by. In every leadership role I've been in, I have highly valued my star employees and tried to assist them in moving ahead. Hiring someone from outside ahead of a star employee and gambling on their loyalty is just moronic.

This of course applies to all relationships. Know your value, and if it's not being properly appreciated, say screw 'em and look for greener pastures.

[–]grewapair 36 points37 points  (16 children)

Their excuse is bullshit. They could have promoted him and found a woman for his old position.

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[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (13 children)

T&A matters in sales too. Believe that.

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[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (11 children)

IDk, but you have to wonder why they want an untrained noobie woman off the street instead of a well performing man who can bust ass and get stuff done. Maybe the boss is banging her.

[–]Heizenbrg 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Guess this is why I'm having a hard time finding a job. everyone hires internally, nobody hires virtual outsiders unless you prostitute yourself networking.
If positions are filled already why post the job? you're just wasting people's time.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Securing and retaining key talent should be just about job one. Without that you are going out of business. Plus it just makes your life much easier as a boss.

[–][deleted] 62 points63 points  (93 children)

Honestly if I ever own a company or become upper management in one (perhaps unlikely given I'm not a black disabled lesbian) I would kill any whiff of "affirmative action" that came my way. If I was CEO then I would make sure that phrase couldn't even be uttered. It's such a ridiculous concept, it's like the manifestation of Tumblr in real life.

[–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 172 points173 points  (84 children)

Reverse affirmative action is even funnier. Asians need higher test scores than other ethnicities to get into college because they do so well across the board. You don't hear SJWs whining about that.

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (74 children)

Holy shit you serious? Surprised I never heard of that before. That's some serious Harrison Burgeron shit.

[–]2alisonstone 83 points84 points  (41 children)

Asians are currently at about a 150 SAT point handicap compared to whites when applying to the top colleges. They are at a 400 point handicap compared to blacks. If you look at the University of California schools that actually have no racial quota, you'll find that half of the student body is Asian.

[–]wanderer779 42 points43 points  (39 children)

from what I've seen they do little whining about it compared to white people. They just keep running their businesses and making money.

I know someone who works at a school in the top 20 on the US news and world report rankings. She told me that if they did away with quotas their school would be almost entirely asian. I think they should just let it happen and broadcast it on TV every day that the asians are kicking our asses because they are studying and being diligent and while we watch TV. Instead we'll just hand pieces of paper to people and hope that solves the problem. Meanwhile China has surpassed us in GDP and is growing their economy 3x faster than we are.

[–]Sir_Shitlord_focker 24 points25 points  (24 children)

Meanwhile China has surpassed us in GDP and is growing their economy 3x faster than we are.

Not true my friend.

USA GDP is 16 trillion USD

CHINA GDP is 6 trillion USD.

And by the by Europe's GDP (without even counting all countries only euro countries) is 18 trillion USD.

[–]Nebulose11 6 points7 points  (0 children)

China is using their future economy as their current economy. They count each house that has been built as though it has been sold.

They are creating an institutionalized housing bubble. It will crash and China's economy will feel the pain.

[–]fabreeze 29 points30 points  (6 children)

China has surpassed us in GDP and is growing their economy 3x faster than we are.

Not the best metric considering they're destroying their environment and thus, their long term economic prosperity in doing so

edit: their > they're

[–]chrisindub 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Be careful about the data you get from a country that has all state run media.

All TV, all radio, all internet, all news - all Chinese government saying what they want you to know, all the time.

China also has 1.4 billion people vs our 320 million.

[–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (1 child)

There's currently a class-action lawsuit from Asians against some Ivy League school because they won't accept them because there's "too many Asians there now"

[–]1aguy01 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Good for them. Hope they win.

[–]wllm4821 5 points6 points  (23 children)

The thing is, if all you needed to get in a college were great grades, Ivy League colleges would be filled with Chinese women. Ultimately, they need other criteria to fill the vacant positions.

[–]Hideydid 9 points10 points  (3 children)

And they totally wouldn't get insider trade secrets at American firms to give back to the Chinese government after a few years when the move back.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)


    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (16 children)

    In the UK as far as I know there aren't any diversity quotas at universities and this hasn't happened. I'm sure the top unis (Oxford and Cambridge) have more Asians than the average but there's still plenty of other races there too.

    [–]2alisonstone 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    I'm not sure if any university actually has diversity quotas. They do it indirectly by valuing certain stuff like lacrosse (predominantly white players) as a sport more than others. I remember reading an article about how some computer science professors tried to use machine learning techniques to see if they can replicate the admissions process of their university because it is very tedious to have so many people read so many applications. The computer figured out that it could imitate the admissions process nearly perfectly if it first divided all candidates by race, and then looked at qualifications (i.e. choose the highest GPA and test scores from each race). Basically, the admissions officers were doing something that looked exactly like having a strict race quota, except they do it in a roundabout way by valuing arbitrary measures more than others and fiddling around with it until they got the racial numbers they wanted.

    Most schools do have a quota on international students, so it's not like it will be filled with Asian international students. I'm not sure about how many Asians are in the U.K., but there are enough Asian Americans (non-internationals) in the U.S. that if you only looked at SAT scores and GPA, they would end up making up something like half of the students at the top 10 colleges.

    [–]bobbage 0 points1 point  (11 children)

    Asian in the UK means Indians. In the US it means East Asians.

    Indians also do extremely well in the US but the UK has a lot more of them due to colonisation.

    [–]wanderer779 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    I say let it happen. The time to correct inequalities in education is much earlier. You can't just stuff these people into college and think that will solve anything.

    I was reading an article written by an admissions officer a while back and she said that poor rural white males were the most disadvantaged group in the admissions process. Being a poor rural white male I figured I'd probably be eligible for some special scholarships or gov money, but I wasn't. /s

    [–]thejynxed 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Outside of the G.I. Bill, as a rural male of any stripe you aren't getting shit.

    [–]garlicextract 14 points15 points  (3 children)

    Affirmative action has helped one group more than any other. Guess which?

    Black men? It was designed specifically for them, right? No, it's helped them only a minuscule amount.

    Hispanic men? Dude, if it didn't help black men why would it help hispanics?

    Asian men? Hahahaa, it's hurt them a significant amount.

    The answer: WHITE WOMEN!


    Affirmative action has helped white women the most, scarcely hurt white men (white guys on this forum really need to stop bitching about being the 'most oppressed' today), slightly helped black men, and done a huge number on Asian [men].

    [–]AnalogSignal 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    The very same white men who act like a victim and bitch about affirmative action also indirectly benefits from affirmative action because white women tend to be married to white men.

    [–]getomc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Assuming that being married to a career women is a benefit, which is at least a stretch.

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Of course, why'd you think feminists defend it so much? "Intersectionality"? Ha.

    [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (5 children)

    AT point handicap compared to whites when applying to the top colleges. They are at a 400 point handicap

    Asian highschool senior here. I just applied to colleges and this shit is pretty real. Not complaining for myself, i know my scores were above average but not great. This one Asian kid im friends with in physics class definitely got affected by this shit. hes so fucking smart he corrects our Russian physics professor. He got denied from his top choices. there was a white kid who applied to the same top choice and had lower GPA and scores but got in. Racial makeup quotas are a bitch.

    [–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 17 points18 points  (3 children)

    hes so fucking smart he corrects our Russian physics professor.

    Tell him to stop doing that because correcting your higher-up's will only piss them off, giving them no incentive to help you along. Tell him to read the 48 laws of power, and specifically, to read this:


    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    Actually, misused the word friend. Hes more of a valued work partner for his pure academic intellect and work ethic. Hes the kid that you want to partner up for lab but I can't say i would hang out with him. Hes as blue pill as it gets, he is 5'1 and wears the same Disney Frozen shirt and cargo pants daily. I love working in Lab with him, hes got an admirable moral compass, but he definitely is not one to spend out of school time with or give any sort of red medicine.

    [–]garlicextract 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I'm well out of college now. But when I applied in HS, I got into a quite good public university. Dudes that (on paper) I was IDENTICAL to (save for +/- 50 SAT points, usually going towards me) got into colleges like: Stanford, Brown, Yale, Duke, Columbia, and many more.

    [–]RedRisingHood 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Asians never really complain yet they are shafted by american society.

    The lesson is, don't be skilled or intelligent, be a whiny brat with a victim complex.

    [–]RedRisingHood 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Asians never really complain yet they are shafted by american society.

    The lesson is, don't be skilled or intelligent, be a whiny brat with a victim complex.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)


      [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

      That's a fair point, if you rely on government money and that money is subject to meeting diversity quotas it starts to make more sense, although I'm sure we can agree the government should not be encouraging this bullshit in the first place.

      Luckily the business I'm working on right now does not need government money and if it ever takes off properly I'll stick to what I said above.

      [–][deleted]  (4 children)


        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        I know man I was exaggerating for comic effect. I thought I made it pretty obvious I wasn't being completely serious. I still hate the whole concept of "affirmative action" and all "positive discrimination." I would judge people by how good they are at the job, not how diverse they make me look. If anything choosing a woman or a minority just as a token is even more sexist/racist than the discrimination it's meant to be countering. Imagine knowing you only got your job to be a token woman or black guy instead of because of your actual merit. That's patronising as fuck.

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        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        I'm in the UK myself but I'm half foreign. I agree with you there are too many racists, oh sorry "race realists", around these parts. I don't buy into that shit. I just think everyone should be treated equally under the law and giving special privileges to certain groups whether it's blacks or women is a bad thing.

        [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

        I disagree. If you do EXCEPTIONALLY WELL at GETTING ALONG WITH PEOPLE, you will move up regardless of how excellent you are at the "tasks" related to your job. People who get along with and influence other people have the rarest skill, and good management will always move them forward instead of others when the opp presents itself.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        My first employee review I was apart of, my foreman said that I made the day easier because of how well I got a long with with everyone. I am just like anyone else, I want the day to go as well as it could be.

        [–]dennislang 8 points9 points  (1 child)

        Only be the best if you own equity in what you're doing and your paycheck is a function of how much effort you put in.

        [–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Tweeting this. It's excellent and I'm 100% with you on that.

        [–]FrameWalker 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        You want to own the best. If you can own your work, being the best has huge payoffs. Top 10% get 90% of profits in many sectors.

        [–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        That's the difference between an employer and an employee. Or, being the best, but self-employed.

        [–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW 10 points11 points  (6 children)

        This doesn't really apply

        A position opened up which was basically the same thing I had been doing, but instead of residential work, it would be more on the commercial side.

        It was the same job. But the law is still valid. There is also a detailed explanation of how corporations work, it has three parts, the losers, the clueless, and the sociopaths, and it fits TRP pretty well. Not sure if its true or not, but it seemed solid on my first pass. You will have to google for it though.

        [–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 8 points9 points  (4 children)

        the losers, the clueless, and the sociopaths, and it fits TRP pretty well. Not sure if its true or not, but it seemed solid on my first pass. You will have to google for it though.

        Yeah the Gervais principle; it was posted here ages ago.

        [–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW 2 points3 points  (3 children)

        I came across it somewhere non-manosphere related I'm pretty sure, but it makes a lot of sense so knowing it was posted here gives more weight, I should go look up that thread.

        [–]TheRedTrader 1 point2 points  (2 children)

        Yh its ribbon farm and I don't think the blog is directly associated with the manosphere in anyway.

        [–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        It isn't associated with the manosphere as far as I know.

        [–]Endorsed Contributorbalalasaurus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Isn't this related to the Gervais principle somehow?

        Edit - never mind. Saw your comment below.

        [–]SuperSlavisWife 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Jon found this out the hard way. His old job was awful. He was stuck dealing with the more difficult coworkers and was even told by upper management to "get (manager) to do her job", despite being beneath her and that she could get him fired over "pressuring" her.

        Once he left his old job was advertised as £7K more than he'd been on. The replacement quit shortly after the first few weeks. They then needed two people to replace him, both of them at the higher salary... They quit too. Apparently his old department is still degrading rapidly and they're trying to replace him with numbers.

        He was literally the cement holding the whole place together and not only did they not compensate him for his extra time and work, they basically bullied him into leaving.

        [–]foldpak111 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I agree with the tech part, but this also applies to special operations. I'm not one but I have a couple family members who are and they are textbook golden boys.

        [–]BlackHeart89 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Its fine being the best among your peers. But never show your superiors that you're better than they are.

        [–]TRP Vanguard: "Dark Triad Expert"IllimitableMan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        [–]GainzdalfTheWhey 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        damn i need to read this book

        [–]CMaximus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Where are you living where bar managers make more money than bartenders? Maybe if you're only getting a couple of shifts a week, but a full-time bartender generally makes considerably more money especially in terms of how much work you're doing for that money.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        No bar manager makes more than his full time bartenders.

        [–]forgetful_storytellr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I disagree. Be the best at your job, and THEN convince them that you will be the best at the next job, evidencing your track record of being-the-best-ness in the past.

        I have done it this way this in at least two different business ladders in my young life so far (25).

        As always, if they're giving you the shaft, walk away.

        [–]Screambloodyleprosy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Truth. I have a new team leader at work and this guy is walking catastrophe! He's been fired from his last 3 places of work including one in 3 hours!

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Exactly. People think that being all "gun-ho" and the best will get you that promotion but it's wrong. Companies just want you to show up for work and do the job. No more, no less. Like my mom always said "If they pay you minimum wage then give them minimum work". That has always worked out for me. I see a job as a depreciating aspect. If they hire me and don't give me steady raises to improve my life then my work ethic slowly declines and I eventually find a position else where.

        [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        yup bust my ass becoming the best, pioneering engineering and productions techniques, cleanest most professional art.

        Nope better keep me on min wage till i told em to get fucked

        [–]pablothe -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

        Bar tenders actually end up being paid more than managers due to tips

        [–]RedPillScare 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        This type of reply is complete gamma crap. You're picking apart the details of the specific example rather than comprehending the generalities it was supposed to illustrate.

        The point being addressed in this thread is not a comparison of bartenders' vs bar managers' paychecks. It is the concept of being practically irreplaceable in your job.

        [–]pablothe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Yeah I get that. Just pointed out that the bartender example is specifically a poor one.

        [–][deleted] 127 points128 points  (49 children)

        In retrospect that is definitely right. At the time, when i decided to move on it was more of a respect thing. I agree completely.

        [–][deleted]  (5 children)


          [–][deleted]  (3 children)


            [–]MightyTaint 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            IDK, it's probably true for the most part, but some things can become extremely specialized. When only a handful of people in the world are experts on a certain topic, they start becoming irreplaceable.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)


              [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              They were surprised when I walked back in and quit. They did ask me why and I said something to the effect of this wasn't the best opportunity for myself and it was time to move on. I think a big reason on why they didn't just offer me more money to stay was the same reason they didn't give me the job. It became a "who knows best" kind of mentality. They didn't want me deciding the terms as much as I didn't want to accept theirs.

              [–]gweneverexoxo 46 points47 points  (40 children)


              but becareful of economical and social positioning. they are our way to the top.

              next time something like this happens, call a meeting like you did, but instead of quiting on the spot, give them an ultimatum, promote of ill quit and send up your resignation papers. this way you burn less bridges.

              another way to go about this is to stay in your position, but line up another job and then quit. this way you dont have much risk quiting.

              [–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW 69 points70 points  (18 children)

              I don't really know if ultimatums work. They already thought you were a bitch and would take it, which is why they didn't promote you. And even if it was affirmative action why wouldn't he get promoted and she get his job, or everyone gets promoted and she starts at the bottom since she has no experience which would make the most sense.

              It could also be nepotism.

              Anyway I think the problem is they didn't respect him and he should think about why that might be so in the future he will have less risk of quitting and people won't step on him. In the 50 laws of power I think they talk about how ultimatums are a sign of having no power because if you had power you wouldn't need to make an ultimatum (most of the time).

              [–]puppetmstr 20 points21 points  (5 children)

              It is the only powerplay you can do without actual power.

              [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (3 children)

              In this case Op had no power, nuclear option was the only thing on the table. Prior warning should have been put on the table, even as far as telling them before the selection was made- "If I dont get this I am leaving"

              [–]Palpetinus 6 points7 points  (2 children)

              For OP, that was out of question. OP was pretty sure he'll get it and was overconfident.

              [–]Rathadin 13 points14 points  (1 child)

              If you pass every test they ask you to pass, and do so perfectly, have excellent performance reviews, then its not overconfidence... its rational thought process.

              He got fucked, period. And then fucked them back, hard. Good on you OP.

              [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              It happened in my office. A guy in the same position give them an ultimatum--"give me some writing responsibilities or I'm out" and lo and behold he's running a smaller project now as a test run. Unfortunately they have this terrible habit of test running people without the pay....

              [–]1independentmale 4 points5 points  (6 children)

              I don't really know if ultimatums work.

              I consider an ultimatum both a threat and an attempt to manipulate and control me. As a result I have a policy of calling that shit every time. "If you don't x, I'm going to y." Do it then, you pussy. You may have been able to persuade me using reasonable negotiation tactics but now I'm going to do everything in my power to ensure x doesn't happen.

              If you let someone force your hand with an ultimatum, he will do it again and again.

              [–]Rathadin 3 points4 points  (5 children)

              Yeah, I'm not a fan of ultimatums either. We can discuss things rationally, but if you come to me saying what you will and won't do, I'll be telling you that you won't be collecting a paycheck and that you will be getting a pink slip.

              [–]getomc -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

              That's bullshit. Everyone has reasonable boundries. You get offended because someone values themselves enough not to put up whatever shit of yours that you think don't stink? There's a reason you don't run shit.

              [–]Rathadin 1 point2 points  (3 children)

              Except I'm the Vice President of Operations at my casino. There is only one person above me, the General Manager. And even he can't overturn my authority to fire people.

              So, in fact, I do run shit. And if you come at me with an attitude I'll leave you in the employment office looking for another job.

              So either act reasonable or get fucked up. Your choice. And a word to the not-so-wise: don't antagonize people with more power than you unless you're just looking for an asskicking... proverbial, or literal.

              [–]getomc 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              No, no you don't do any of that shit but we'll fucking go with it just because I can entertain hypotheticals. Everyone has circumstances and limits. Your inability to compromise doesn't make you right.

              People have lives and families. You're just a job. Maybe that's less true when the stakes are higher but you're not a usual employer then anymore because you're paying people to make those sacrifices.

              [–]Rathadin 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              No, no you don't do any of that shit but we'll fucking go with it just because I can entertain hypotheticals.

              You're talking an awful lot of shit for someone who can't seem to handle being told how things are gonna be. Let me make it simple. You get hired at my casino, you will maintain the same standard as everyone else, period, or I will personally make your life suck dick until you quit. If you decide you're going to get an attitude and tell my floor supervisors or pit bosses what you will and won't do when they ask you to do something within your job description, I will fire you.

              Period, end of story.

              Your inability to compromise doesn't make you right.

              No, my being right means I don't have to compromise.

              People have lives and families. You're just a job. Maybe that's less true when the stakes are higher but you're not a usual employer then anymore because you're paying people to make those sacrifices.

              Yeah. Exactly. The toke rate this week was $42 and some change. That was a good week. The average salary for a dealer at our casino last year was $76,000. Not bad for someone who needs only a high school diploma and enough schooling to deal craps, roulette, and Blackjack. That's why I expect people to make these sacrifices.

              Also, why the fuck are you replying to a month old post telling me what I will and won't do, and what I do and don't do? Go back to your shithole, troll.

              [–]GuidoBandito -1 points0 points  (2 children)

              I agree with the ultimatum. Recently had a coworker give an ultimatum for a raise. Management didn't wait to see if he would stand up to it. He was fired not less than an hour after management informing HR. And his position remains open. Obviously, it's not that important to replace him either.

              To me, ultimatums are like "behave or I'll turn this car around." You're not liking what is happening, feel powerless to really affect change, but want to feel like you do knowing full well you will lose either way.

              If you don't like the situation you are in and know that it won't change, change where you are at without useless idle threats. Be a man, and in the case of moving on with your life, alpha.

              [–]Rathadin 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              Uh, if his position is still open, in this job market, its because they can't find anyone to replace him.

              Check Monster / LinkedIn / Beyond, whatever. I bet you they have adverts up for his position.

              [–]GuidoBandito 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              After 3 months and the CIO announcing today that they aren't filling the position, I'm leaning towards no. I live in an area that can easily find an SAP developer. We even have them contracting from across the country.

              And evidently, the point was lost on whether they were going to hire someone or not as opposed to using beta tactics and threatening your employer with ultimatums. Because as you say, in this job market, they can find someone else. No matter who we are talking about.

              [–]EightyTimes 11 points12 points  (1 child)

              Line up another job. Call the meeting. Tell them you've lined up another job. You get the promotion at double salary (what that chick they hired instead is getting) OR you just want a raise (do the same job, but at the higher salary) or you walk.

              If they cave, you show them you don't fuck around and they won't pass you up again in the future. If they don't cave, you have another job so fuck them.

              [–]darkrood 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              make sure you got the 2nd job, and it's a stable option.

              I've heard people who left my company begging to retract their resignations when their new prospect went busto.

              it's okey to do it, just make sure you have a parachute.

              [–]alpha_n3rd 23 points24 points  (15 children)

              next time something like this happens, call a meeting like you did, but instead of quiting on the spot, give them an ultimatum, promote of ill quit and send up your resignation papers. this way you burn less bridges.

              Dangerous. They might label you "the disloyal guy" and find a way to show you the door whenever it's convenient for them, like after you're finished training your replacement.

              It's a lot safer to job-hop.

              [–]1User-31f64a4e 2 points3 points  (5 children)

              I've seen this go both ways.
              I've seen guys hold a company for hostage repeatedly and get away with it.
              I've seen guys considered disloyal for this, and ultimately replaced.

              [–]PotatosAreDelicious 6 points7 points  (3 children)

              The key is not to be a dick about it and just present yourself with a calm head and your intent laid clearly out.
              Everyone is replaceable but if you bring value to your position and are truly being undervalued they are not going to want to replace you.

              [–]1independentmale 5 points6 points  (2 children)

              The key is not to be a dick about it

              Giving an ultimatum is being a dick. You tell them what you want and if you don't get it, then you do what you have to do. There's no need to threaten somebody with "if you don't, I'm going to."

              I was once passed over for a promotion. I thanked them for considering me and started looking for a new job. I'd take a few hours of vacation time for morning interviews, then show up to work in a suit and tie to finish the remainder of my day. They figured it out on their own and promoted me rather quickly. I didn't have to verbally threaten anyone.

              [–]PotatosAreDelicious 9 points10 points  (1 child)

              Okay.. You don't walk in and say "So here is the deal, give me a promotion or I'm leaving". You say something along the lines of.
              "I'm not real happy because of this and this and it seriously makes me doubt my employment here if you aren't respecting my value to this company. These are the things that need to be done for me to feel happy with my employment here..."
              You aren't threatening the person directly. You are "doubting your employment" at the company. They know what you are going to do if they don't nut up. In the mean time go look for another job.
              This is what adults do. They present their concerns and if their concerns aren't met they get them met They don't just walk out on the spot because their needs weren't met without establishing what needs to be done to make them happy at their current role and without getting a new job.

              [–]1independentmale 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              "I'm not real happy because of this and this and it seriously makes me doubt my employment here if you aren't respecting my value to this company. These are the things that need to be done for me to feel happy with my employment here..."

              Thank you for making my point. What you just wrote is not an ultimatum. An ultimatum carries with it a demand and a threat. Your words carry neither. They are an expression of your position, a sharing of your frustration and a list of things that might help ease that frustration. One could say, "Well, there's an implied threat" and one would be right, but it's not so much a threat in this case as it is a statement.

              I agree with everything you wrote here. This is how adults sort out situations like this. Not with ultimatums.

              [–]alpha_n3rd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              I've seen guys hold a company for hostage repeatedly and get away with it.

              I guess you can do that if they perceive you as irreplaceable; which probably means they're incompetent managers, but whateves, if you can get away with it would getting a black mark on your work history.

              [–]NeopolitanAfterglow 8 points9 points  (7 children)

              Dangerous. They might label you "the disloyal guy"

              An employee being labelled disloyal is like a man being labeled a cheater. Intuitively it seems like a bad thing, but it's social proof and it just makes women/employers more wet for you.

              [–]alpha_n3rd 5 points6 points  (3 children)

              Admittedly I've never tried this myself but the standard internets advice is "don't do it".

              I also worked for a successful business owner who's blanket policy was to refuse to give in to any ultimatums and instead consider the given employee to have resigned on the spot thus avoiding having to terminate him and pay for his unemployment.

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                [–]alpha_n3rd 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                I don't think so. Did I mention he's a lawyer?

                "Give me a raise or I quit"

                "No raise, resignation noted, bye"

                [–]drlancesweets 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Uh, cheating is bad...very bad.

                [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                  [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                  You're not wrong, but if OP or anyone considering really is that good at their job then it shouldn't be too hard

                  [–]Endorsed ContributorNiftyDolphin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  If you were are you previous job for more than a year you made the right move.

                  For some reason many employers have the attitude of "If you were actually competent you would have already left for money. Since you haven't, you must not be worth what you are asking for."

                  Hopping jobs for higher pay now seems to be accepted practice. (After spending an "acceptable" period of time in a position.)

                  [–]Thethrowawayoption 12 points12 points [recovered]

                  Doing a good job is still a good choice though because it gets you that next job (at a different company) really fast. It's much easier in general to get large pay raises by switching companies than by getting promoted within the same company, so I'd argue that should be the default strategy for guys who aren't afraid.

                  [–]BowsNToes21 7 points8 points  (3 children)

                  I second this. People always told me I was a fool for doing extra work outside my job scope and I would never be rewarded. At one point I was doing reports and creating financial models using SQL for our brand new database. I had to teach myself to code and learned it very well.

                  Did that for six months and now I'm a financial analyst at another company making an extra 23k more then I was making before.

                  Every time someone had mentioned about them using me I laughed on the inside because I was using them to get paid to learn a valuable skill and get work experience.

                  [–]Kalidane 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                  What you did is upskill. That's a very specific case of over-performing; in the general case, it is still a bad thing.

                  [–]BowsNToes21 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                  It's a only bad thing if you want to be promoted at your current job. It's a good thing if you're planning on leaving for a better position.

                  [–]Kalidane 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  "Too valuable to promote" is a scary concept and is widely applied at my present firm. Having a meeting about that in under 3 hours funnily enough.

                  Strange that allowing the competition to instead promote such persons is a managerial strategy.

                  [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  They found someone without balls to fill the position he wanted. Badum tssssch!

                  [–]skoobled 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  This is a very real danger when you're actually excellent at your job. Cf Gervais principle

                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    He said in his post that he already got a new job within a week.

                    [–]the_code_always_wins 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Which is weird considering how frequently people quit their jobs nowdays. It's expected someone will advance their career by changing companies.

                    [–]yaardi 106 points107 points  (23 children)

                    Congrats on the courage to quit, mate. Lots of people would have accepted it.

                    [–]Danedina 201 points202 points  (33 children)

                    The lesson here is not that you should walk away from your job when they fail to treat you with respect.

                    The lesson here is that you always need to keep yourself financially independent enough so that you can walk away for whatever reason.

                    Ask yourself right now: how many months could I survive without my current paycheck?

                    [–][deleted] 79 points80 points  (27 children)

                    I think the lesson here is in today's job market always be looking to move, different departments, different companies, and even different fields, picking up skills and networking the whole way. There's (probably) no reason OP couldn't have monkey branched over before he quit. My big mistake in my career is that I thought loyalty counted for something when no one really gives a shit.

                    [–]Ovadox 76 points77 points  (7 children)

                    My big mistake in my career is that I thought loyalty counted for something when no one really gives a shit.

                    This is the red pill for your career. My current moto is "Fuck you, pay me."

                    [–]Scroph 36 points37 points  (3 children)

                    My current moto is "Fuck you, pay me."

                    It reminded me of a video I once saw about all the crap freelance programmers have to deal with.

                    "I have a million dollar idea website. Make me that website and then once it gets popular, I will give you a portion of said million dollars. But don't worry about not getting paid, this is a sure thing."

                    To which of course the response should be :

                    "Fuck you, pay me."

                    [–]abcd_z 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                    It reminded me of a video I once saw about all the crap freelance programmers have to deal with.

                    This one. It should be required watching for anybody going into a web development or web design career.

                    [–]craig_hoxton 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                    The response should be: "I'm not your mom so I don't do it for free."

                    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

                    Fuuuuuuuuuck you, pay me

                    -John Goodman

                    [–]waynebradysworld 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    The gambler? Strange movie

                    [–]PlanB_pedofile 11 points12 points  (5 children)

                    There was once an era where loyalty to a company meant something. A person with 30 years in will progress quite well through the field. Unfortunately today it seems the only way to expand is to quit and move to something new.

                    I've done that and got burned. Jumped to a new job and a 50% salary increase only to see the company i jumped to do poorly financialy and was laid off with 70% of the other staff in 2 years. The company went belly up in year 3. The recovery job seeking was a salary decrease.

                    But that was a bad luck brian moment.

                    Alas business today is like relationships. Hypergamy of the work place.

                    [–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 17 points18 points  (3 children)

                    Yep... business (jobs and careers) went from marriage to hookup culture.

                    I'm willing to bet businesses that have dealt with both would much prefer the old deal where employees were hired with the expectation they'd stick around until they retired as opposed to the new deal where employees monkey branch every 2 years or so.

                    [–]marty2k 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                    Part of that deal is that you promote people and give them raises fairly consistently, not keep them on the same pay grade same job until they retire. Business are like women, hypergamous.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                      [–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      Yep... Loyal employees are screwed. Everyone should be out for #1.

                      [–]iukenbo 5 points6 points  (9 children)

                      Hooo. Im currently at this position. I think my job's shitty because I almost do all the work. Now, a higher position is waiting for me (HR prioritized me) and my boss advised me not to jump ship because they think I'd have no growth path in that position. Before that, I heard from HR that he won't recommend me because I'll be hard to replace. The position pays higher and is significantly more superior than what I have right now but I'm afraid my boss is right :/

                      [–]1grubek 34 points35 points  (1 child)

                      I would not listen to your boss. He just wants to keep his bitch that does all the work (that's you obviously).

                      It might be true it might be false, your boss does not care. He just wants to keep his bitch and will say whatever necessary, truth or false. You obviously are a bit naive and that's why he thinks it can work on you.

                      Ignore what your boss tells you.

                      [–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                      Don't go by what your boss tells you. Go by their actions. Much like women the truth will come out in their actions. If you're being shitted on by your boss like the OP then the actions will show that even if your boss is saying you're super awesome and we're lucky to have you in our company!.

                      [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                        [–]iukenbo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        I said im still not sure so they got other potential candidates on the list. But I pretty much got the upper hand on the waiting position. Im still waiting for the interview from the boss.

                        [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                        That sounds a lot like OP "and that I should just keep doing what I have been doing and it will all work out for me". It's true if you pass on position B because position C might open up and that's a more direct path to the much better position D. I remember similar things being told to me. Today I would say fuck sacrificing now for future reward. In general that's a good life philosophy, but at work it has almost never panned out. Opting for position B might cap your ultimate potential at your current company, but I highly doubt adding it to your resume hurts your chances at other companies. There are a million different things to consider, but the big thing that would prevent me in a similar spot is if I was going to be working for/with idiots. Being surrounded by constant stupidity is a major stressor for me.

                        [–]1cover20 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                        The position is waiting, HR has "prioritized" you. Why aren't you in that position today? What is the position waiting for? Not sure HR is being completely truthful here.

                        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        That's pretty classic from current bosses. If you're a good employee, that means your leaving will make their entire work life more difficult so unless they're a good and somewhat selfless person, they aren't really going to want that to happen. I was in the same position a while back ago. Could have stuck in my former department that I hated doing all the work for my bosses, or take a leap to a different department with higher pay. Definitely glad I jumped ship. Always go for the promotion, even if it's the top of the ladder in that department, you'll have it on your resume and jump into a higher role somewhere else even easier.

                        [–]iukenbo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        That made sense. Thank you for the input. I needed an unbiased opinion from a different point of view.

                        [–]chb1000001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        "Hi boss. I am going to advance my career now. If you would like me to do that with this company, we need to make some decisions today."

                        Shut up and wait until boss says something you like.

                        [–]1aguy01 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        Careers are a lot like women.

                        [–]87GNX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        Everyone has to learn this one the hard way.

                        [–]xPURE_AcIDx 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                        Be in the level of Fuck You. (from the gambler)


                        [–]tedcase 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        3 comfortably, 5 at a push.

                        [–]SleepNowMyThrowaway 91 points92 points  (2 children)

                        Back when I worked summers on a road crew to pay for school I had something similar happen.

                        We worked several weeks on a few projects then I was let go - which floored me as I had worked there the prior summer and had had no problems the current summer.

                        Found out they had switched from local work and had taken on a new job that required a certain percentage of "minorities" so I as a lowly summer worker and of the wrong sex/race, was ditched.

                        Didn't overly bother me, although the pay was fantastic, especially with the overtime. I felt sorry for the others that were laid off however; they sure as heck weren't glib about being let go, no matter how temporary it might have been.

                        I reflected then, and still believe today, shafting qualified people to appease some special minority group is a sure fire way to gin up authentic hatred for said groups, as well as the government that mandates such policy.

                        [–]TerriChris 31 points32 points  (0 children)

                        I saw three white male managers get fired and replaced my two white women and a black guy. One of the women earned it the other two were not a fit. One of the women was double promoted with in a few months. The black guy was cool but was not capable to do his staff engineer job.

                        [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                          [–]yummyluckycharms 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                          Very true.

                          Most people's ideas of how company's work in regards to promotion date back to the 50's, but company's employ just in time labour and are very lean. They dont have surplus capacity anymore, and even more to the point, if they promote someone who is very good at their job, they would have even LESS capacity.

                          The majority of people I know who got promoted did so by leaving the company - almost 95%

                          [–]bustanutmeow 34 points35 points  (8 children)

                          What did they say in regards to you quitting?

                          [–]Senior Contributorexit_sandman 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                          Yeah, this would interest me as well.

                          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                          They didn't say to much. It was more of a "if that's how you feel". To be honest, I didn't really give a shit on how they felt. I made my mind up.

                          [–]Redpillc0re 7 points8 points  (4 children)

                          It doesn't really matter, nobody is irreplaceable in a corporation. The best you can do is to negotiate the best terms in the market, like the OP did.

                          [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

                          They would have you think that, but finding a decent replacement can take 6 months or more. I have learned this from experience. There aren't actually an overabundance of great potential employees just sitting around waiting for someone to hire them, contrary to popular belief.

                          [–]Redpillc0re 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          But they did in the end. What I 'm saying is that you should not consider yourself irreplaceable, and instead you should always look for the best terms for yourself which most of the time will be elsewhere. In fact my advice is to switch employment every 4-7 years

                          [–]1aguy01 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          All relationships are replaceable but people still get hurt when they end.

                          [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                          nobody is irreplaceable in a corporation

                          Not in small/medium sized companies. Very often, people fill crucial positions that are not easy to replace. OP didn't explain how big his company was, but odds are they just shot themselves in the foot by paying a woman more to do less work and lose two men who were pulling more than their weight.

                          [–]yummyluckycharms 30 points31 points  (0 children)

                          This is how you do it.

                          Recognize that if you were truly valued - they would've promoted you over the other person because you were best qualified.

                          Recognize that they didnt offer any sort of compensation, but told him to be a good little boy and to go back to his corner

                          Recognize that having the power to walk away and to actually use it is the one true power that not even the matriarchy take away from you

                          [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (10 children)

                          Gotta love those minority quotas even though women make up the majority in this world. Whatever happened to hiring the best person for the job? It disturbs me to know that we are giving up making actual progress in our society for diversity in the workplace. You were clearly the better person for the job and obviously your boss had quotas to fill so it can't be helped but your former boss fucked himself two ways.

                          • He lost one of his most valuable employees
                          • He hired someone with no experience to take a position that is yours

                          Your former boss will lose money for both those mistakes and the competing company you work for will only gain. I am just angry that we need to somehow give up bettering society by placing the best people for the job for being progressive which has been doing the opposite of progress.

                          [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                            What does that have to do with being a minority? To me there are minorities out there who are hard working and really good at what they do. We have to stop catering to minorities and just let nature take its course. We have made enough progress where surprise surprise minorities can out-preform the straight white males and we consider them for the same job.

                            Also, who really knows if the woman will burn out? We do know that her lack of experience will cause her to under-preform compared to OP. But who really knows if she is a complete lost case.

                            But yeah with her the struggle will increase. I don't believe she is completely ill-prepared since she wanted this job in the first place and someone else can train her to do the job. But that still doesn't change the fact that her inexperience will cost her.

                            [–][deleted]  (6 children)


                              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

                              I'm not bitter, salty, or even angry, just disturbed that diversity, inclusiveness, and -insert progressive buzzword here- is taking the place of meritocracy.

                              [–] points points

                              [permanently deleted]

                              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                              I don't blame the business for needing to fulfill a minority quota. They have to do whatever it takes to get by. My gripe is with the fact that there is such a thing as a minority quota. And while that business probably did screw itself I don't think it will lose a ton money over one employee.

                              [–] points points

                              [permanently deleted]

                              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                              Yup it is becoming less about what you know and more about who you know.

                              [–][deleted]  (24 children)


                                [–][deleted]  (19 children)


                                  [–]TheRealMouseRat 35 points36 points  (0 children)

                                  and now they can't train the quotee.

                                  [–]RRIAFC 74 points75 points  (16 children)

                                  Egalitarianism would have given the job to the person who was best qualified, i.e. OP. This is Marxism.

                                  [–]Brian_Official 16 points17 points  (2 children)

                                  Yeah it really sucks that businesses are regulated and encouraged to hire by racial/gender lottery than by something ridiculous like applicable skills and experience.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  The contracts that my company would try to get would be regulated by things like how many minorities they had on site, or even just working for the company. Those contracts are also the most lucrative.

                                  [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                                    [–]wllm4821 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                    Do you even know what Marxism is, lol

                                    [–]Hrodrik 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                    It's Marx's other book, haven't you read it? "Das Patriarchy".

                                    [–]wllm4821 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                    Yeah, like his theory, "Modes of Betabucking"

                                    [–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                                    in practice, whatever terminology the feminists get their hands on turns into de-facto marxism in short order

                                    [–]Raigek -5 points-4 points  (3 children)

                                    Stop using Marxism, you guys are idiots that don't know anything about it

                                    [–]totorox 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                    We had this debate in gamergate. You marxist deniers got rekt.

                                    [–]Raigek -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

                                    Cool cool, I'm a educated and active socialist though. You can't get me 'rekt' on anything political.

                                    I'll destroy your libertarian fallacies any time of the day.

                                    [–]rpscrote 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Glorious Supreme Leader, grant me your wisdom!

                                    [–]Hrodrik -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                                    Oh god, here were go again....

                                    [–]1kick6 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Not wanted to: likely had to.

                                    [–]NikolaTeslaMGTOW 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                    You're a man.

                                    Our ability to walk away is our strenght.

                                    But one of our weknesses is seplling.


                                    [–]TerryYockey 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                                    I can't understand why a shitpost nitpicking a typo is being upvoted.

                                    [–]MightyTaint -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                    Well, it certainly isn't our spelling.

                                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 53 points54 points  (9 children)

                                    You don't have to stand and take the bullshit that comes your way.

                                    This. Congrats to you for telling them to get stuffed. Bosses are always surprised by this. Oh, and that situation was never going to improve.

                                    They told me ... that I should just keep doing what I have been doing and it will all work out for me.

                                    Right, just keep eating the same crap sandwich and eventually you won't notice the shit taste anymore.

                                    Anyway, glad it did work out. Incidentally, when you interviewed for the new gig, how did you cover the departure from the old gig?

                                    [–]Scroph 3 points4 points  (5 children)

                                    They told me ... that I should just keep doing what I have been doing and it will all work out for me.

                                    This reminds me of a saying that comes up every once in a while, especially in fitness-related forums : if you keep doing what you're always doing, you will keep getting the same results you're always getting. I don't know who said it and I might have paraphrased it, but that's the gist of it. I always thought it made sense from a "lifting" standpoint, but I was surprised to see it was applicable to OP's situation as well.

                                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                    There might be some applicability to things that are effort-based, but in this case, an artificial rationale (promote noob women over experienced men) was injected into the situation.

                                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                    Actually, that statement has always annoyed the shit out of me because it makes sense in everything except for lifting. If you're doing the same old thing and it's giving you results you like... Why the hell would you change anything?

                                    [–]Reavver89 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                    Exactly, you wouldn't. On the other hand, If you've been doing the same thing in lifting for 4 months and haven't been getting enough gains (AKA you are NOT happy with your results) you should switch up your routine. Your comment reads like a confirmation of the statement.

                                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Yeah, I guess so in that context. Thing is I always see douchey instagram bros I know quoting that mantra as a justification for them constantly switching up their shit, a la "muscle confusion".

                                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                    The new gig didn't even ask on why I left the former. They just wanted to know what I wanted and what I knew.

                                    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                    Excellent. In my business, they always ask about why I want to leave. My current gig gives me a ton of freedom, so I haven't interviewed in a long time, but I'm sure I had a pat answer about needing a new opportunity to grow my skills and such.

                                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                      [–]1aguy01 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                      Yea but if they used any logic at all this sub wouldn't exist.

                                      [–]pilledwillingly 131 points132 points  (43 children)

                                      My little sister is an apprentice electrician, based on my advice for her to "get a man's job if she wants to make good cash and be independent. "

                                      Now that she has the job I say: "Don't take any offer for advancement unless you've earned it. " As the only female in 50+ apprentices, the company is bending over backwards for her, and she's refusing to take priority placement, and refuses to skip the more physical rotations. This is how you be a female in a male world without pissing everyone off. I give it 4 years before she's offered a permanent desk job/promotion, one that she will also refuse if she doesn't merit it.

                                      [–]gprime312 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                                      You're a great big brother and your little sis sounds awesome. I wish more women(and people in general) had your sister's self-respect.

                                      [–][deleted] 80 points81 points  (32 children)

                                      Yes the system is rigged in the favor of women. Not taking advantage of that as a woman is not smart at all.

                                      [–]pilledwillingly 66 points67 points  (2 children)

                                      If your goal is to work in the field for 4 years and then be the incompetent manager who is never taken seriously for the next 30, then yeah.

                                      [–]mathis5332 105 points106 points  (0 children)

                                      Wrong. It can do incredible things for her self-esteem. It means she can trust her judgment better than others. She has a standard for fairness and demands to be treated equally, for better or for worse. That's the only way to make your place in the world of work without everybody roling their eyes when they see you enter the room.

                                      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (26 children)

                                      Exactly. She is family. I do not care about morals on minor issues when it comes to family doing better. If she can get to manager and do it without deserving it, who cares, she's your sister afterall.

                                      [–][deleted]  (25 children)


                                        [–]pilledwillingly 62 points63 points  (9 children)

                                        No, I'm not doing shit for honor. I'm doing it because I know the industry. Word of mouth is your future, contacts are your security, your image is everything. You fuck up a polarity, and you're the guy who fucked up a polarity forever. Her peers are tomorrow's business owners, tomorrow's deserved managers at her company's competitors. Why would I advise her to to take the glass elevator with a finger in their face while they are climbing the ladder? It's a slow burn.

                                        [–]wanderer779 8 points9 points  (3 children)

                                        I guess I am jaded on this subject because I've come to have the attitude, "get the money and fuck everything else." I've tried to work hard but it seems that a lot of other factors such as politics, connections, personality, ass kissing and most importantly negotiating power are more important than work ethic and knowledge.

                                        My experience with the electrical field is that it's full of nepotism. I tried to become an electrician before. I am 99.9% sure I aced the entrance test, but they would not let me in. They also would not tell me my score on the test, despite telling the class that they would prior to taking it. After the test they had me come back for the interview portion, during which they made sure to work in the question, "who do you know in the union?"

                                        No offense to you, things might be different in your area or industry and I'm sure you know the game. I've been told that the dynamics change depending on what local you go to.

                                        [–]watersign 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                        unions are the working mans good ol' boy networks. they are full of nepotism..its not based on skill..they are scum

                                        [–]pilledwillingly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                        It's not different in mine. Nepotism is still rife within companies, but the larger entities are more regulated and require to take on a certain amount of apprentices through standardized tests.

                                        [–][deleted]  (4 children)


                                          [–]pilledwillingly 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                          You can't learn to be an electrician by managing jobs from an office. Managing is about reading plans, getting stock, procuring materials, assigning people. Working for a manager who can't do your job is like flying a plane without air traffic control. Sure you can land the plane, but you have no support if anything doesn't go exactly to plan, nobody who can forsee a decision made in step 1 affecting step 36. And we that's how managers end up back on the street, or back on the tools.

                                          [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                                            [–]pilledwillingly 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                            And that's how companies lose money. When the managers are managing people whose jobs they don't understand.

                                            [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (13 children)

                                            In a short term view maybe. In the broader scope, she's taking up a job that could go to a suitable male who would be more suitable for a job like that.

                                            [–]pilledwillingly 12 points13 points  (11 children)

                                            And because you don't know whose job she took, everyone in the running for it hates you. And now they work for you.

                                            [–]phalanx2 -2 points-1 points  (10 children)

                                            And you think that hate is justified?

                                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children)

                                            Fuck yes it it, if someone ousts a more qualified manager because she has a vagina...guarantee no respect from me.

                                            [–]phalanx2 -4 points-3 points  (7 children)

                                            Shit, I didn't realize it was a fundamental axiom that all people with vaginas are obviously less qualified for everything.

                                            The anecdote that we are discussing doesn't say anywhere that the woman was obviously less qualified. You are saying all that hate is justified because she is a woman and it is obvious she is incompetent. You really need to reevaluate your position, because you sound like a stupid cunt.

                                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

                                            Good try, if you read what OP had to say, you will note that the woman was definitely less qualified yet he was replaced, meaning she got the position because of her gender, who she knows or who she blows.

                                            You can't even hide your inner SJW for a second, it's just dying to leave your fingertips onto this screen in the hopes that my misogynistic eyes will gaze upon it.

                                            Bring me a woman who's earned her bona fides and I'll work with her just fine.

                                            Bring me a woman who didn't and I'm going to avoid her like the plague because she's itchin to swing her entitlement bat again.

                                            [–]pilledwillingly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                            No. But it exists so what does it matter?

                                            [–]phalanx2 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                            haha. so you think its a woman's responsibility not to not get into male dominated fields because she should know that there is a man who can do the job better? how is your comment upvoted?

                                            [–]michael6795 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                            It may not be smart in the short-term, but if women truly want to be viewed equally, this is the way to do it.

                                            [–]Faps2Down_Votes 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                            If her company is union that doesn't surprise me. They prolly wont put her at a desk job though because they need her for those pesky minority quotas.

                                            [–] points points

                                            [permanently deleted]

                                            [–]pilledwillingly 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                            She's not hamstrung. She's an apprentice. Every option will be considered based on its merit, but not jumped at, especially if it burns bridges.

                                            [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                                              [–]pilledwillingly 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                              Correct (although in australia we just say tradesmen after apprenticeship is completed). The opportunities I'm talking about NOW are to just skip maintenance and retrofitting rotation which involve more physical labor and dirty work than new installations, but everyone else has to go through it. The company has just been really clear that they want her to stay on, even though they aren't really obligated to continue employment after training finishes. They go out of their way to ensure she can access female bathrooms on site even though she's happy to use portable toilets. She gets asked by management if she's happy, fairly regularly.

                                              When I said "I give it 4 years..." I mean that I believe it will happen within 4 years time - so no, she hasn't been given a desk job yet, if the syntax was misleading.

                                              [–]garlicextract 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                              Now that she has the job I say: "Don't take any offer for advancement unless you've earned it. " As the only female in 50+ apprentices, the company is bending over backwards for her, and she's refusing to take priority placement, and refuses to skip the more physical rotations.

                                              Well that's stupid as fuck. She should definitely advance if she is offered it...

                                              [–]pilledwillingly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                              And I disagree. It's a job where you fuck up and you die. She shouldn't be managing people before she knows what she's doing. Kara Hultgreen is a cautionary tale.

                                              [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                                [–]red_gerb 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                                                I was never given clear goals to receive promotion. Then when I finally got a promotion, I was written up for not performing to expectations. Bottom line: It's all BS, and the Boss just wants a good ass kissing. Nobody ever explained it too me. I will never bend the knee. Corporate Bastarditos.

                                                Watch what they do, not what they say.

                                                [–]nuesuh 27 points28 points  (21 children)

                                                quota for minorities had to be filled

                                                I didn't knew being a woman made you a minority.

                                                [–]frys180 36 points37 points  (18 children)

                                                White women are considered minorities. They benefit the most from affirmative action.

                                                [–][deleted] 48 points49 points  (11 children)

                                                Its a pretty neat magic trick to be considered a minority when you are the biggest group of people in the country.

                                                [–]through_a_ways 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                                                when you are the biggest group of people in the country.

                                                and also the most privileged, objectively speaking.

                                                [–]1cover20 13 points14 points  (5 children)

                                                Black women say white women benefit the most from a.a. I think that's only true in total: the most a.a. hires of any subgroup are white women. But per capita, I am sure it's black women.

                                                Black women are double minorities. And as a result, very few black men get preferential treatment. Why hire a black man if you can hire a black woman and get double credit? So black men probably get little benefit from a.a. and have a high unemployment rate.

                                                I have no axe to grind here. I am a white man. I'll never get quota treatment whichever of these other groups wins their little scrap for a.a. preference.

                                                [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                                  [–]through_a_ways 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                  unnecessarily long.

                                                  Native > African > Hispanic > European/Middle Eastern > Asian/Indian

                                                  female > male

                                                  grabbler > non-grabbler

                                                  [–]wanderer779 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                                                  also from what I can tell most black dudes just said fuck the whole system and went rogue. I can't say I blame them.

                                                  [–]through_a_ways 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                  It's definitely black women, but not only for the reasons you're thinking.

                                                  It's true that black women are double minorities, being of both female and URM background.

                                                  However, it's also true that black women are comparatively much more naturally advantaged than black men in a feminine system of education.

                                                  In Asia, there is no gender gap in educational achievement; Korean males do just as well as Korean females.

                                                  In Europe/"Caucasia", males are outperformed by females (as far as GPA and booksmarts go)

                                                  In black America, males are far outperformed by females, to the tune of 2 black women having a degree for every 1 black man.

                                                  While blacks in general have low IQs, black women are far overrepresented on the high end of the bell curve, similar to how men of other races are overrepresented compared to their women. This means that among blacks, who receive the biggest boost from AA (discounting American Natives), black women benefit from AA disproportionately more than the men.


                                                  [–]RPthrowaway123 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                  Seriously, women make up 50% of the population. How the fuck are they a minority!

                                                  [–]denart4 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                  Anything that is not a straight white male is a minority.

                                                  [–]Voshe 24 points25 points  (0 children)

                                                  This shit angers me to no end. You did the right thing.

                                                  [–]revofire 26 points27 points  (16 children)

                                                  Quotas are garbage. Any company that complies with one is weak as hell. Always walk away and leave them hanging if they try to pull a fast one in the name of equality.

                                                  [–]Redpillc0re 16 points17 points  (9 children)

                                                  they are not weak, they are prudent. lawsuits exist. if, however , everyone acts rationally, like the OP did, companies that implement them fail. natural business selection

                                                  [–]rpscrote 4 points5 points  (5 children)

                                                  Quotas are IN NO WAY AT ALL mandated by the law. Not even close. If you do this, it's because you're weak and too lazy to figure out how to do it right, legally.

                                                  [–]Redpillc0re 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                  In some countries they are, though. And companies do get sued (the boss of this very website, god bless her soul, did it) regardless if there aren't quota laws in the us

                                                  [–][deleted]  (1 child)


                                                    [–]rpscrote 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                    Not hiring anyone at all is protection from frivolous lawsuits too, but you don't see that given as advice (but it is a benefit of working for yourself...)

                                                    In the public arena, quotas are actually de facto illegal. In the private arena, they are not illegal but they are absolutely 100% not mandatory. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_California_v._Bakke and succeeding cases for university entrance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricci_v._DeStefano and succeeding cases for public hiring quotas made for purposes of avoiding disparate impact claims.

                                                    You are mistaken on how discrimination lawsuits work. There is an extremely rigid burden of proof shifting framework. Making shit up is so common there that the courts have devised a tough framework to beat. The part that's painful is the EEOC audit because its not a formal lawsuit. Quotas are HARMFUL evidence against you if you're trying to prove you don't discriminate intentionally. I agree promoting a woman is helpful evidence however.

                                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_Corp._v._Green for intentional discrimination claims. Very rigorous. Expensive to defend, but very likely you will win if you didn't actually discriminate. Disparate impact claims are different, and very hard to prove in real practice on their own right, but can provide another avenue. Intentional discrimination is where the real damages lie though.

                                                    [–]Faps2Down_Votes -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                                                    You are absolutely wrong. See my other comments for explanation.

                                                    [–]rpscrote 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                    No, I'm not. Cite your cases.

                                                    [–]1cover20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                    OK when they weigh the costs and benefits, they have the lawyers telling them to hire the woman, but at least they should have the supervisor telling them he needs the man and is afraid he'll quit if he's mistreated.

                                                    [–]revofire 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                    Lol natural business selection. That is true.

                                                    [–]Faps2Down_Votes 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                    Not if it's a requirement. If you own a construction company, and you are working on a job where there is government money involved, at least in my state, you need to meet these quotas or face giant fines. Then again, any business that needs to suck off the government teet is probably weak as hell. At least low morals.

                                                    [–]watersign 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                                    all big corporations and publicly traded entities have to fill these quotas

                                                    [–]revofire 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                                                    That is the worst thing I have ever heard of... how on earth does something so illegal become law?

                                                    [–]watersign 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                    the soviet take over america happened in the 60s and now its ramping up now. the collapse of society usually occurs when communism happens

                                                    [–]renegade 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                    Actually groups that have a diversity of outlooks have better decisions in general. Quotas should not be necessary but some organizations are too ossified to make smart choices of their own accord.

                                                    [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                                                    Good on you. If companies want good people to stay they need to reward them

                                                    [–]bigdickbanditss 10 points11 points  (1 child)

                                                    can't applaud this enough

                                                    the more people taking less shit the easier they make it on everyone, your bosses will think twice about giving it raw dog to outstanding employes from then on

                                                    don't take shit from anyone

                                                    [–]MightyTaint 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                    the more people taking less shit the easier they make it on everyone

                                                    So much this. I'm in a field where a large percentage of the workers are beta. It's like I have to train the higher ups not to try to push me around all the time. They're always so shocked. They're basically like "Be our bitch", and I'm like "No, go fuck yourself, and good luck finding somebody else who can do the job". Their shock and actual lack of leverage is always humorous.

                                                    [–]Stopher 10 points11 points  (10 children)

                                                    What seems most retarded to me is that a job that's so similar to your current one in the current company, similar enough that you're going to train the new person, pays almost twice as much.

                                                    [–]newls 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                    Different people's contracts can run on for a long time. My mother was on a different (higher) pay to everyone else in her team for six months because of this. But yeah, double is a lot.

                                                    [–][deleted]  (6 children)


                                                      [–]Stopher 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                                                      OP didn't indicate that that was the case here.

                                                      [–][deleted]  (4 children)


                                                        [–]Stopher 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                                        Much like this sub says not to apply logic or reason to female behavior, I do the same with management.

                                                        [–]Dev_on 1 points1 points [recovered]

                                                        theres always rationale, just not the same as what we think it is.

                                                        I've seen both sides. And if you are too stupid to realize that being the best worker isn't the same skillset as the best manager...

                                                        instead of doing his job the best, he should have been doing it half assed, and doing the job of a manager... also ensuring that you're palatable to your new group of peers, since they pick who they get to work with.

                                                        or just move along when you get a change.

                                                        Theres always logic, always a reason, just because we cant see it doesn't make it irrational

                                                        [–]Stopher 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                        Yeah you're right. I'm too stupid. Except he didn't say it was a management job and your trolling an Internet fight when we all know the world isn't fair and managers can be stupid and he did the right thing by leaving. The rationale could be they were already paying him less or she had nice tits, he did mention consumer vs commercial accounts) or one of a zillion other things. I don't expect perfect parity. I'm pretty sure I make more than my immediate manager now. Timing is big and that happens. A fifty percent difference is not acceptable from what I read in the post.

                                                        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                        It really has to do with the contracts that are signed. To get someone to volunteer basically for this service for their house needs to be a lot lower than a commercial building that requires by law for this to be a part of the building. I do fire sprinkler systems.

                                                        [–]CuddleMyNeckbeard 24 points25 points  (1 child)

                                                        Now what a great example of equality...

                                                        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                        A woman making it because she works as hard as men do. Wait, that's not right...

                                                        [–]1favours_of_the_moon 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                                                        I got the job I was looking for at a competing company with in a week.

                                                        Congrats brother.

                                                        If they wanted to fulfill some minority quota, they could have promoted you and hired the woman for your old job. Maybe she was somebody's wife. Either way, it's bullshit. You deserved better, and you got it.

                                                        [–]grewapair 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                        They may have known they were under paying him and no one would take his old job at his low salary, so they were trying not to rock his boat.

                                                        [–]TRP VanguardCyralea 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                                                        Abundance mentality is the key to success in every area of life. Be it women, jobs, house-buying, the person who is most willing to walk has the most power.

                                                        Good on you for having a spine.

                                                        [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (2 children)

                                                        Good on you. I am experiencing a similar situation right now. Work at a law firm as an attorney; busted my ass and crushed for three years. Brought the firm a lot of money. Was up for my raise in February and asked for a justifiable raise. Raise was given, but it was pathetic and actually lower in percentage than my last two raises. Then I learned that my group was advertising a position at an amount that would have been equal to the raise I requested. So what did I do? Applied like fuck to another job. Got it. 45% pay bump. Tomorrow is my last day at my old firm.

                                                        [–]Philhelm 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                        I'd feel sorry for you, but I'm a paralegal.

                                                        I work at a small immigration law office with one attorney who drives an Astin Martin. I've been here two years without a single raise, and all of the staff were subjected to a temporary 10% pay cut for a few months, literally the same week the attorney purchased a new Jeep (a bona fide Jeep; not like a Jeep Cherokee or something like that).

                                                        Every day I wake up, a huge, metaphorical, meaty cock slaps me in the face several times. I scaled back my work effort 20% and take the LSAT in June. Fuck it.

                                                        [–]1oldredder 12 points13 points  (0 children)

                                                        You did right by yourself. This is truly holding frame and also showing that the root of the red pill is economic and is self-respect and building yourself.

                                                        If you can train a person to do a job you can do that job and it's wrong for you to be both deprived and train the other person.

                                                        [–]1DRMMR76 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                                                        I had a very similar thing happen to me, except with race not gender. Worked for a security company a long time ago that had a black manager and 4 supervisors, all black. I watched them go through probably 8 more supervisors while I was with the company, all of the new ones having less experience, education, training, or seniority than me. When I saw that after the 7 or 8 new supervisors that they only promoted other black guys and that not a single white person was in any kind of management position whatsoever, I quit on the spot. And I waited until the day I was supposed to train one of the new supervisors on his job, since between supervisors, I had to do all of their actual duties but without the raise or promotion.

                                                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                                        lol imagine the reverse. see: 1890s America. now it's the reverse, but it's okay because our ancestors 150 years ago had it slightly better!

                                                        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                                                        I'm getting fucked over right now thanks to affirmative action. First, can someone explain to me how 51% of the population is a minority?

                                                        [–]1aguy01 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                                        They're only 51% because 99% of workplace deaths are men.

                                                        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                        Oh I wonder if they fight to work those jobs? I mean I'm sure they feel entitled to the same pay, just for easier, safer work!

                                                        [–]busyalterego 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                                        Perfect analogy for TRP. It's the same thing we always say with women:

                                                        Women: None of them are loyal, so forget about commitment. Just spin plates and look out for #1. Abundance mentality and frame. Keep lifting and adding value.

                                                        Employers: None of them are loyal, so forget about commitment. Just keep your resume updated and ditch the company when it suits you. Abundance mentality and frame. Keep improving your skills and list of accomplishments.

                                                        [–]fluxburn 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                                                        I say the only time you do a good job is to get hired. Then just suck at your job. You're more likely to be promoted then busting your ass. Because if you bust your ass, the you are the best at the job. If you suck at your job, you must be looking do something else.

                                                        I worked my ass off at a job and never got employee of the month from these fucks. Never again will I work hard.

                                                        [–]1aguy01 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                        Busting your ass so somebody else can keep all the profits is silly anyway.

                                                        [–]TeaParPat 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                                                        Buddy of mine has a black wife. To prove a point about quotas, she submitted a resume that included a photograph for an HR position that required 5 years of experience (she has 0). Sure enough, she got the interview and was offered the job 10 minutes through the interview. When she left the interview room, she talked to one of the other candidates outside, this one a white man about 40 years old and found out that he was a former HR department head at GEICO and had been for 15 years.

                                                        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                                                        I don't see why my business should have to suffer so that I meet minority quotas. I would not care if the individual was green and four feet tall if he was the best candidate.

                                                        [–]MightyTaint 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                        I would not care if the individual was green and four feet tall if he was the best candidate.

                                                        Neither would the vast majority of businesses. They are a business, they don't give a fuck who does the job, just who turns the greatest profit.

                                                        It goes back to the whole erroneous "Women are paid 75 cents for every dollar a man gets." Why on earth would a business willfully pay a man 33% more than a woman, if they can get a female to do the exact same job at an extreme discount? Because they like flushing money down the toilet?

                                                        So, if quotas exist (or there are at least pressures for a business to appear diverse), how can a company use this to their advantage? The answer is: by keeping skilled labor like OP working for pennies, and blaming quotas. Like OP said, he didn't blame the female candidate who got the job (who could? we all are going to try to get the best position and pay we possibly can), but he does blame management for trying to fuck him.

                                                        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                        Good for you for telling them to fuck off. I did the same recently and the company was begging me not to leave. After I left, 20% of the remaining staff for my position also left within 2 months.

                                                        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                                                        As someone from post-soviet country, I have strong allergy on preferential treatment. My relatives have very bad memories on that. Anyway just being good at your job is not enough.

                                                        There is sort of twisted way to take advantage of it. It will probably burn bridges, but one could get proper dismissal with 3 months salary, instead of just quitting. Leaving your job also compromises unemployment support and is hell with alimony.

                                                        What I say applies to UK law.

                                                        • they openly admitted discrimination based on sex. There are quotas to be filled, but employer must do it without discriminating other sex/races.

                                                        • you can legally change your race by converting to different religion (Jew or Sikth).

                                                        • some countries in EU allow you to declare any origin you want. You grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand father was from Africa?

                                                        • coming out of closet was never easier.

                                                        [–]fortifiedoranges 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                                                        This is why you need to take advantage of a broken society. I'm a black lesbian stuck In a white man's body. If you don't hire me you're a racist, sexist bigot. Fuck it, if they (SJWs) want to play like that I will play like that.

                                                        [–]1cover20 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                        It was too late. The other person was already hired. They gave him no warning that would have allowed him to use those strategies.

                                                        [–]Djentlord 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                                                        Affirmative action is quite fucked up. It should be merit based. All affirmative action is is the only form of discrimination that pleases liberals.

                                                        [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                                        It isn't fucked up in its base idea. It's fucked up in execution. Fuck racial or gender based affirmative action.

                                                        Economic affirmative action, on the other hand, is fair and necessary in my book You can't expect some kid from the ghetto with a shit family situation and school environment to do as wwll as some kid in the suburbs. That, unfortunately, will never get rectified by current aff action.

                                                        [–][deleted]  (5 children)


                                                          [–]1cover20 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                                                          Not needed. Just demand to be HER boss or at least make a lot of money. Otherwise turn them down.

                                                          We know how to turn down women. It's no different. Hold frame.

                                                          [–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          and then after a short period of time to gain some experience, flip the new promoted position to one at a competitor for even more money and a better work environment

                                                          [–]wanderer779 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                                                          I think this is good advice. Forget the satisfaction and take the money. This boss didn't do this out of spite, he is just playing the game for himself and so should you.

                                                          I like that scene in "thank you for smoking" where his boss takes credit for his idea and he just takes it in stride without missing a beat. The guy is so smooth, he doesn't spend a second whining about how the game is played, he just keeps hustling.

                                                          I'm trying to learn to be more like this. I'm naturally very concerned with morals, and I am outraged by hypocrisy and have a pretty strong vindictive streak. But I have to admit it does me absolutely no good.

                                                          [–]puppetmstr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                          I interpreted that scene as the Colonel testing Nick's loyality and knowledge of the laws of power. They way he said 'yes, smart man that B.R.....?' He knew it was actually Nicks idea.

                                                          [–]juliusstreicher 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          You inspire us all. I hope your ex-bosses have learned a lesson. Thank you.

                                                          [–]WhiteBlackNight 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          This is awesome and truly inspirational. This happens to be my very second post on TRP. I have been lurking for a long time without commenting but absolutely felt compelled to commend this brave man.

                                                          I don't know you, but if I could afford it, I would honestly spot you till you find another job and get back on your feet.

                                                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          Good job on walking out, I never understood the quota equal opportunity bullshit. If you're not qualified for the job, you're not qualified, it doesn't matter what color or gender you are.

                                                          I deal with it a lot on the reservation I work on, but it actually makes sense up here.. If you're a native american and it's on your land and you're equally qualified, you do deserve the job... But when it comes down to hiring a qualified person, and you have to choose the female who's 50% dumber than the male who applied it really reflects poorly on your business.

                                                          [–]RPthrowaway123 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                          Good for you. Don't take shit from anyone. you're greatest strength in any negotiation is your ability to walk away.

                                                          Glad to hear it worked out for you with another company!

                                                          [–]MightyTaint 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                          you're greatest strength in any negotiation is your ability to walk away

                                                          It's important to repeat that, and expand upon the idea that everyone should strive to have a large nest egg, so that that ability is true and actually present.

                                                          [–]ericatx 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          You are a f**king hero! Man, if more dudes did this when these "quotas" are shoved in our faces companies would think twice before passing up the right person for the promotion. What you did takes BALLS! Awesome!

                                                          [–]phism 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          They probably didn't really have a quota to fill and just told you what you wanted to hear so you wouldn't take it personally.

                                                          [–]IvanMedved 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          You should have asked for increase wage to the one of that position, then quit.

                                                          [–]GainzdalfTheWhey 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          I'd like to buy you a beer for being that awesome, i hope they get fucked by not having anyone with your qualities to perform the job.

                                                          [–]Mitchs_Frog_Smacky 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          Feels great doesn't it? I had to train another guy all of my duties (even though he wasn't an engineer) when the economy took a dump and I was the "newest" employee there (14 months) so I was out the door. He felt bad about it and I just kept telling him the whole time "no worries, I'm teaching you everything completely incorrectly." in which he laughed... But was I joking...?

                                                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          I'll never forget my first desk job. I got trained by a guy who pretty much as soon as he finished training me quit. Due to the monthly nature of the products training took several months. When he quit I asked my boss if I would now get an assistant. He said he was already interviewing. Had two people short listed, a man and a woman.

                                                          The man; previous job in the same role, years of experience. Knew how to handle courier companies we used, had Industry connections.

                                                          The woman; fresh off the boat from Indonesia, strong accent, never worked in the industry before.

                                                          My managers main concern "if I hire the women, i'll have more girls on my team". You can guess who I was training after that. I quit for unrelated reasons after the training was done.

                                                          [–]Enolator 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                                          This is the strong attitude many have had issues with in their careers. May I ask how you handled the "Why did you leave your previous job?" question with the new place?

                                                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                                                          ??? I'm guessing exactly what he said here would be a good start. He was more than qualified, passed all the tests and was told the only reason he didn't get the job was because they had to fill a quota. Seems a good enough reason to quit and look for the same job elsewhere no need to make something up.

                                                          It shows the new employer you really want that job...

                                                          [–]yummyluckycharms 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                                          DO NOT SAY THAT.

                                                          The classic response to this question is to say the following....

                                                          "I'm continually striving to improve myself and I like to seek out new challenges to grow from. Having exceeded in my old position, I wanted to take the next step and saw that your company was hiring for the position of x, y, z. It looked enticing, so I applied"

                                                          The original response looked whiny - this response suggests drive and ambition. Which candidate would you choose, hmm?

                                                          [–]TheRealMouseRat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          I would have told them that I wanted the same wage as the other position would have given, or I'd quit. However, I liked your solution better. (to just quit)

                                                          [–]RRIAFC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          Was it a quota for that specific position? Why couldn't they promote you and hire her and have you train her to do your old job?

                                                          [–]1cover20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          Very well done. Many props.

                                                          [–]ChairBorneMGTOW 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          Please tell me that you left before she was properly trained.

                                                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          I don't think the company knows what the word "minority" means.

                                                          [–]Shigglyboo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          Good for you man! Doesn't matter who they hired, bottom line is whomever is most qualified should get the job. I have no problem with women or minorities in the workplace, I like a good mix of people, but it's all about what you bring to the table. If your employer doesn't value you it's a toxic environment. Always nice to hear things are going well for someone, congrats on the new position!

                                                          [–]TheLordOfShit 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          File a sexual discrimination lawsuit.

                                                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          "It was because a quota for minorities had to be filled" This is what burns shitty companies down. Good for you! FUCK THEM! We DON'T have to take this Marxist horse shit sitting down. Do whatever you can to steal business from them.

                                                          [–]newmeforever 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          You did the right thing.

                                                          Fuck that, wouldn't doubt they give you a call soon (or maybe not)

                                                          Keep moving on up.

                                                          [–]zdayatk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          You made a very proud and brave decision. You've shown a great deal of courage to not tolerate unfairness and injustice of your prior employer. Congrats and good luck!

                                                          [–]babayega 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          Das it mayne! The new employee being female is irrelevant in this case, but I appreciate more career related posts on this sub.

                                                          [–]ABC_Florida 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          Many people talk about lessons learned here. But I'm missing a lesson.

                                                          The lesson here is that you can prove an idea wrong best with actions not with words.

                                                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                          Pretty late here but this happened to my father. He was a mechanic with the post office. Busted is ass for many years, worked over time, never called in sick and was by far the best mechanic they had. A spot opens up for a supervisor position and he thought he was going to get it. Instead they gave it to this black guy in the shop to fill some quota. This guy was lazy always late and had a bad attitude. Still got the job because of the color of his skin and not his work ethic.

                                                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                          Having trouble carrying your ginormous balls?

                                                          [–][deleted]  (6 children)


                                                            [–]redkick 19 points20 points  (3 children)

                                                            This might have meant something and could actually mean they had something planned for you in particular.

                                                            “It will work out for you” is a classic stalling technique. If they had other plans, they should have said so, this isn't a surprise birthday party.

                                                            [–][deleted]  (2 children)


                                                              [–]redkick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                              Yes, it might be an awkward boss who doesn't know how to word such statements properly, only OP can be the judge on that. As always, it's not about the words, it's about how it's said.

                                                              However, it worked out great for OP in the end, since getting a new job is always a better way to improve the career instead of moving up inside a company.

                                                              [–]1cover20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                              I thought OP played it beautifully. When he quit, they could have persuaded him to come back with a better offer.

                                                              Thanks for shilling for management though.

                                                              [–]8thhenry 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                              Well done. Let them have their quota queen.

                                                              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                              This shit happens all the time.

                                                              When it happened to me about 20 years ago the girl quit after a couple weeks. She thought it was hard and didn't like waking up early, etc.

                                                              You were right to tell them to fuck off (figuratively). I never got the chance because they actually fired me to give her my job.

                                                              Then she quit because she didn't like doing what I did really well. She couldn't even do the job anyway. It regularly involved lifting over 100 pounds and sometimes 300 pounds and handling and firing a shotgun. (I was a deckhand on a Halibut Charter boat in Alaska)

                                                              Of course, there's not law broken if a man is fired so they can hire a woman.

                                                              [–]renegade 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                                              Does it occur to anyone that OP may have been a bad employee? I have a lot of people working for me can easily read his account as self justification combined with a tactical heave-ho from the company we call it "managing out", make them leave while thinking it was their idea. Someone who reacts like this I'd probably want gone.

                                                              [–]wheyapartment -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                                              At first I disagreed with you, but now that I think about it, you're right.

                                                              Must be the dunning kruger effect at work. Everyone thinks they outperform their fellow employees. I'm willing to bet that OP is one of those guys who dicks around on the job all day and assumes he's better than the guys who finish their work quietly and diligently.

                                                              [–]AzureCuzYeah 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                              Good for you bro. Your balls are heavy.

                                                              [–]MightyTaint 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              That was his first lesson to the new hire. Have huge balls and walk if treated like shit.

                                                              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              shit dude, you have it worse off than me, although I too have a situation where everyone like the girl more and will do anything to help and guide her into new position.

                                                              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                              Congrats to you man. I'm in a similar position to you. Been at the same employer for years now. I am over-worked and I outperform every other person in my position. I asked for a raise the other day, and my boss came up with some bullshit excuse why he couldn't give me it. In the end, I understood the reality of the situation-I'm easily replaceable.. Why would he pay me more when he can just hire a new guy to do the same thing for less?

                                                              I wish I had the balls to walk out like you did. If I didn't have plans of moving within the next 2 months and needed to keep my job until then, I would've done it. Kudos.

                                                              [–]MightyTaint 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              If I didn't have plans of moving within the next 2 months and needed to keep my job until then, I would've done it.

                                                              Well of course you should stay. OP was wise to walk because otherwise he would've been being taken advantage of from here on out; IE for years and years or as long as he stayed with the current employer.

                                                              If you have an exit plan already in place, follow through with it regardless of insult. It's just in your best interests.

                                                              [–]n8dawwg 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              Good fucking job OP. I hooe you can take some of the business away from your old job.

                                                              [–]BlackHeart89 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              They were full of shit. They couldn't have simply placed her in your old position and given you the title???

                                                              [–]chances_are_ur_a_fag 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                              I thought only govt agencies had the "quota".. regardless, good for you, fuck those people.

                                                              [–]KeithStone30rack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                              The quotas are from government agencies and extends to the bidding process. "You must have x number of bids from women owned construction firms, or x% of minorities in your labor force"

                                                              [–]1InscrutablePUA 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              Initially I was depressed reading your post thinking "this guy busted his ass and got fucked in the end".

                                                              Once I saw the word "quit" my spirits rose immediately. Good on you!

                                                              [–]grewapair 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              This is a good example of why you don't want to work for a company that enforces quotas.

                                                              It's just one more obstacle in your path.

                                                              [–]jdgalt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              This is poetic justice. (You could sue for discrimination, but letting the result stand is better revenge anyway.)

                                                              [–]ThrowingMyslfOutther 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              Diversity, the new Affirmative Action

                                                              [–]Swanksterino 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              Excellent, I swear to god, management seems to think the only job that requires skill is their's. I've run into this 'just put anyone in tjere a monkey could do it attitude' alot. It usually spells trouble, cause they save money on pay, but then have to wait out the learning curve. I hope they learned a lesson.

                                                              [–]Screambloodyleprosy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              I done the same fucking thing. I was passed over by females who had never worked in my area and were hired as unit supervisors and team leaders all while more experienced people were passed up.

                                                              Told them to go fuck themselves and everyone they had hired above me quit within 2 weeks.

                                                              [–]adeline882 -1 points0 points  (7 children)

                                                              uhh... this story is bullshit, they wouldn't tell you that you hadn't been hired because you weren't a woman... fucking sex discrimination lawsuit waiting to happen... quit your bullshit...

                                                              [–]1CowardlyPetrov 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                                                              Some guys do make the mistake of being honest and some guys aren't backstabbing cunts. One of my old bosses use to tell me truths like that because we were both RP guys and I wouldn't fucking abuse him for it. I would just use the information to my benefit. Just like the OP used that information for his decision.

                                                              [–]1cover20 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                              If he got those great reviews and perfect scores, he reasonably asked what the hell had happened. Off the record it's reasonable to think he was told this.

                                                              [–]steelerfaninperu -1 points0 points  (3 children)

                                                              Actually, there's no sex discrimination possible in this case.

                                                              OP was already gainfully employed by the company. The company had a new position open. They are under zero obligation to give that job to OP because OP already has one.

                                                              Now, if OP and Miss Ovaries were both being interviewed for the opening, and both were complete strangers, and they picked the chick simply for diversity reasons despite her being less qualified, then YES you'd have a case.

                                                              [–]divorcedbp 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                                              I don't know about that - it's probably quite a bit more subtle than that. You could easily make a case for a hostile work environment.

                                                              As a thought experiment, would you feel the same if the genders were reversed? To be clear, I think the whole thing is bullshit, but if we have a system, we need to fairly apply the rules to everybody.

                                                              The only way to defeat these people is to hold them to the same standards that they impose on us.

                                                              [–]steelerfaninperu 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                                              I would absolutely feel the same way in the reverse situation.

                                                              The bottom line is that quotas are bullshit, but IMO it's not illegal to have them. I'm a firm believer in the free market. If a company decides to pass on a talented employee for someone else, just because that someone else is black or has a vagina or whatever, then fine. Let them.

                                                              If the decision was truly wrong then they will pay for it. In this case, the more talented worker left, and will make another company more successful. And the new person they hired will probably fuck up, costing them money.

                                                              What I hope for in an ideal world is that people can have whatever policies they desire and the free market will tell them if they are right or not.

                                                              [–]divorcedbp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              Despite the fact that it may not seem like it, I don't think I could agree with you more. My personal opinion is that if I run a business the decision around who works for me is entirely mine - if I don't like the Irish, great, I don't hire the Irish and I eventually go bankrupt because I have stupid and irrational prejudices.

                                                              My point was that there is a set of people who have used the coercive power of government to create a system under which they know the honorable nature of men will not cause them to retaliate in kind. My reaction when being unfairly and grossly manipulated is to check out and start holding my oppressors to the same standard that they hold me.

                                                              [–]yummyluckycharms 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              Depends on the country.

                                                              In canada, many companies are required by law to give the job to people from preferred categories (anyone who isnt a white male) if they are equally qualified. The problem is - the definition of equally qualifed isnt set in stone.

                                                              You would basically need to video and audio tape the boss stating that he hired the woman, because she is a woman, and even though she wasnt qualified at all. Good luck in getting that.

                                                              [–]TerriChris 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                                              First thing. You are brave and great job sending the right message. Second, do not quit a job unless you have a job offer.

                                                              [–]1cover20 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                                              Your second point is generally right. But here he wanted to avoid training the woman who was hired instead of him. Since he had the confidence he could get another job, he was quite right here.

                                                              [–]NickCiufi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                                                              You can also ensure your freedom to quit by having a minimum of six months' salary saved. Some serious gender discrimination nonsense went down between two team members at my last job, and I was able to quickly cut ties and move on before taking the time to line something else up because of savings.

                                                              95% of people in the US plan their finances 2 paychecks in advance. That's the kind of thinking that will cripple your options and force you to find another gig before quitting.

                                                              [–]divorcedbp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              If they directly told you that the only reason you didn't get the job is due to the fact that you're not female, I sense the opportunity for some quality black knighting.

                                                              I would see if you can find an employment lawyer willing to do a free consultation. It would appear that they've violated the equal employment opportunity act. Imagine if instead of what you heard, they'd said (to her) "We're sorry, we like you and think you're qualified for the job, but we have to offer it to a man."

                                                              [–]chrisindub 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                                              This company sucks. They should have hired women in entry level positions years ago, and then gradually promoted one who was good at her job.

                                                              You can't just hire someone for management and bypass everyone with loyalty and experience.

                                                              I bet you weren't the only one pissed off by that dick move of theirs.

                                                              [–]tyrroi -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                                              Easy to do if you don't have to support a family.

                                                              [–]watersign -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                                              props for quitting..that is a ballsy move

                                                              [–]UzairDjillaliYahud -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                                              wow respect that you actually got the balls to quit. this is just insane.

                                                              [–]Raigek -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                                              Sure buddy, anything you want to know.

                                                              You could also like, read books on Marxism. Just like I read stuff about Liberalism. It's good to know what you like and what you dislike.

                                                              [–]privated1ck -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

                                                              Did you do the classy thing and train your replacement during your two weeks' notice?

                                                              In an industry where everyone talks to everyone, staying classy is vital to your career future.

                                                              [–]renegade -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

                                                              Just WTF does this have to do with RP?

                                                              And if she had been black would you have been equally incensed? What exactly is your point here?

                                                              [–]2johnnight -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

                                                              I am not impressed. You did not act Machiavellian.

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