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The dangers of echo chambers (self.TheRedPill)

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[–][deleted]  (27 children)

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[–]1iluminatiNYC 52 points53 points  (5 children)

Glad I'm not the only one. A little bit of self-reflection of one's biases is always needed.

[–]CrackityDiggity 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ideological thought is the death of rational thought. Group-think is dangerous. You have to think for yourself, never accept any theory uncritically. Always be willing to abandon your beliefs if new evidence arises to contradict them. You can listen to others and consider their points of view, but at the end of the day you have to make up your own damn mind.

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      [–]Redpillc0re 22 points23 points  (0 children)

      unfortunately most of the subjects discussed here are considered taboo for academics and there is simply a paucity of research around them. thats why you will have to tolerate some broscience until the academia removes its tampon.

      The intelligence example is a great one, it shows the way in which academia has bent itself to the feminist narrative. Intelligence is now only vaguely defined , to hide the obvious conclusions that women don't do great at analytical skills.

      [–]Elesh 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      This thread is giving me a lot more faith that TRP has some critical thinkers.

      I got karma eviscerated for suggesting that women are not inferior in a thread about TRP posting tone. It was a reply to an endorsed contributor who was self-citing. TRP has observed methods that work in the real world, it's real strength is its empirical basis and respect for reality. But you can weave those observations to make theories that agree with any particular social agenda. That's one anecdote agreeing with the echo chamber theory.

      Thanks for the book recommendation (The Blank Slate). Put it on my to read list.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      I thoroughly enjoy and deeply respect Steven Pinker. One thing he does that I find interesting for a professor of psycholinguistics is the way he often uses 'she' and 'her' in place of 'he' and 'him' when talking about the ambiguous unidentified person. I take it as acknowledgment of the flaw in our language regarding the default assignment of the masculine gender and also some amount of pandering to the feminine. I wonder why he doesn't employ the gender neutral 'they' etc. Regardless, he is absolutely brilliant and entertaining.

      [–]kinklianekoff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I take it as acknowledgment of the flaw in our language regarding the default assignment of the masculine gender and also some amount of pandering to the feminine.

      I agree. I wouldn't mind it as much if we wasn't so entrenched in a culture of twisting everything towards the feminine. Somewhat related is the swedish usage of "hen" which is supposed to be a neutral compromise between the feminine "hun" and masculine "han", but just sounds ridiculous considering it is such a recent forced construction. Forcing language like that is bordering on thought policing.

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        [–]needmorefat 22 points23 points  (6 children)

        Like come on, the reason you ended up here is because you started questioning the social status quo

        Some people got here from questioning pre-existing liberal beliefs. Those people still have pretty much liberal-to-libertarian beliefs in that they support gay marriage and all that jazz, but now it's slightly tempered with some more conservative and more cynical ideas about human nature and gender.

        Others got here because they were already conservatives, and reactionary ideas provide a more intellectually sound defense of what they already believed than what mainstream conservatism can. Those people didn't question their personal status quo at all.

        You'll notice this trend everywhere. Hyper-liberal people from liberal areas are often unreasonable, but liberal people in conservative areas are often much wiser than their peers (and similarly conservatives from very liberal families and areas)

        Unfortunately, among those who subconsciously notice this phenomenon it lead to ideological hipsterism where people have contrarian beliefs just to show off how smart they are, so you get a cycle of contrarians, meta-contrarians, meta-meta-contrarians... (Tumblrinas are contrarians, Redpillers are meta-contrarian, and so on.)

        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

        Unfortunately, among those who subconsciously notice this phenomenon it lead to ideological hipsterism where people have contrarian beliefs just to show off how smart they are, so you get a cycle of contrarians, meta-contrarians, meta-meta-contrarians... (Tumblrinas are contrarians, Redpillers are meta-contrarian, and so on.)

        That's a really inciteful viewpoint, it's just an endless cycle..

        [–]needmorefat 7 points8 points  (2 children)

        The worst part is, it's really hard not to fall into the trap.

        Because the nature of the trap is: "Hey, I'm aware of your ideology, and mine explains and transcends it."

        Liberal academics completely understand mainstream conservatism, and have dissected it to pieces, shown all its flaws. Mainstream conservatives, meanwhile, don't even realize how thoroughly outwitted they are. They just repeat tired aphorisms as their traditional culture slowly dies.

        Neo-Reactionary movements like theredpill have totally dissected aspects mainstream liberalism, and the liberals have zero awareness of reactionaries and are totally oblivious to how cliche they sound whenever they open their mouth. One by one, neoreactionaries gain ground.

        And me, well... I feel like I've totally understood TRP, totally understood the dark enlightenment. moldbug, down to the core. I can see all its glaring flaws, its completely idiotic logical holes. But... really, haven't I just gone one level higher? And is there an even smaller group of elites which is even now laughing at me?

        You can't really escape it. The truth is, everything that comes out of my mouth, your mouth, every single thinker on this forum, is mostly nonsense,speculation, towers upon towers of ideas and counter ideas which are really just idiocy and false premise when you get down to it. The only part which means anything is the hard data.

        [–]Endorsed ContributorMarsupian 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        This is why I think the core of trp is about getting a clear view of reality. A lot of posts are a variation of "here is what media showed us, this is what happens in real life."

        The explenation why and the possible solution is not important. I also think often posts are written without judgement but people assume it's criticism. When people post about af/bb, hypergamy and other touchy subjects it's not necessarily a criticism of women. In my opinion it shouldn't be, we are not here to judge.

        In my eyes this sub is about correcting a romanticised view of reality and exploring how to achieve your goals and give meaning to life in this brave new world.

        You don't have to have a particular ideology to appreciate that and contribute.

        I do think that because the focus is obviously on where reality differs from what society tells you it can come across more black and white as it is. I think everyone is inherently selfish (the root of hypergamy and awalt) I also believe in compassion, loving everyone and everything and cooperation. Selfishness is a true expression of animal nature and in my eyes something beautiful.

        This is an example of how you can observe reality (hypergamy and awalt) but instead of it being judgemental like is usually assumed it's just an observation and appreciated for its beauty.

        To conclude I think observing without judging is the solution to not becoming the next neo reactionary movement. If you are free from a presumption of how things should work and what reality should be you are free to observe the true nature of reality and through that find your own way in this world.

        [–]kinklianekoff 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        The only part which means anything is the hard data.

        Unfortunately, that severely hinders what we can arrive at and limits our potential.

        A healthy skepticism coupled with rationality and logical conclusions with not too many steps removed from facts is what makes the most powerful write ups.

        "Hey, I'm aware of your ideology, and mine explains and transcends it."

        The take away point from this thread is to try to not one up the -isms and movements.

        For example, I accept the value of the core family unit from the 50's which can be considered part of conservatism, but I also accept that day is past, it's just not feasible as a goal anymore.

        The truth is, everything that comes out of my mouth, your mouth, every single thinker on this forum, is mostly nonsense,speculation, towers upon towers of ideas and counter ideas which are really just idiocy and false premise when you get down to it.

        If everything was false premise and idiocy, you wouldn't be here. It's precisely the rational dissections of hard facts, the straight talk, that is the appeal of RP. It's almost addictive. It's also why we should remain critical of what we read here.

        [–]Saiserit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        "Whatever the fuck is going on is not predictable through any kind of rational model I know." But this...it's a special kind of magic. For me, it was like figuring out there is no God all over again.

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          [–]cariboo_j 13 points14 points  (1 child)

          Yeah I was debating the merits of basically the cookie cutter model of "alpha male" that TRP puts forward and questioning whether constantly chasing pussy is essential for the happiness of every man. I'm leaning more towards MGTOW.

          The OP of the thread quickly resorted to ad hominems. Accused me of being a concern troll, low testerone, a woman (lol), anything but directly engage my arguments. It was pretty disappointing.

          [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

          I think most people at TRP still have an end goal of meeting a "unicorn" whether they want to admit it or not; that's what they want and it's what they long for. You can tell because so many posts strictly talk about women this women that and all posters' strong adherence to the concept of the "nuclear family" which usually require a woman.. who you love.. I think that Red Pillers would have been Lords or traveling merchants in ancient times since a lot of what we discuss has to do with personal reputation, generating wealth, and generally being an established desirable (sexy) male.

          TRP is like moderate-conservatism where MGTOW is like far-right or far-left. The impression I get from MGTOW is most of them simply aren't interested in playing the game that is "life". A lot choose to live minimally, not have children, no relations with women or very casual relations, and "ghost". A lot of these guys I feel would have been wandering sages or monks in ancient times.

          Both schools of thought essentially teach men to live free; but through different means.

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          [–]AlphaJesus 16 points17 points  (0 children)

          That's fuckin deep. Great observation.

          [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          That's true, and quite disturbing as well.

          [–]PMME_YOUR_TITS_WOMAN 6 points7 points  (0 children)

          Oh god. I hear about Fight Club being used by people as an example to be made fun of, "the guy who watched Fight Club and it totally changed his worldview, man" type of thing.

          But it's perfect here.

          [–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (11 children)

          Taking the pill was the best thing that ever happened to me, drastic improvements to say the least. As crazy as it sounds, it also helped me overcome negative views I had toward women; mainly because they all stemmed from that "nice guy-ness".. I expected women I found attractive to love me without putting in more than a dog shit of effort to my appearance, physique, social skills etc..

          I notice a lot of posters who love to just say "AWALT" about everything, but truth is: "AWALT for a reason". All women will leave a loser guy who doesn't bring home the cheese. All women will stop fucking a guy they don't find sexy anymore. All women don't view beta men who flock to them like a lost puppy dog as "sexy".

          "AWALT" is something that has a negative connotation here suggesting that women are shallow opportunists who have a heart made of coal.

          Wouldn't you lose interest in your girlfriend if she let her body go and you had options yourself?

          Wouldn't you dump your girlfriend if she was financially irresponsible and refused to go to work. Or if you were okay with supporting her; if she didn't do chores around the house, prepare meals, or some type of productivity toward your benefit as a couple?

          If you were a woman would you find a man who acted femmy, whined about first world problems, and overall expected you to treat him like his mother did as sexy, confident, and your "rock"?

          The women who can't keep their legs closed and lie about it to their boyfriends, the women who divorce rape their husbands, the women who report false rape claims etc etc.. ARE DAMAGED WOMEN Do you not agree? DAMAGED as in DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE women who aren't damaged don't act this way.

          Most women I've met don't truly give a fuck about the "patriarchy" they might say they don't agree with it or something, but at the end of the day most of them still want a strong, sexy, confident, leader type guy as a boyfriend. Most women who aren't totally career driven want to be house wives too. Most women want to go shopping at target and other "evil corporations" despite any leftist brainwashing.

          A lot of us came here because we had bad experiences in the past from being beta. We weren't confident, we lacked success, and we endured extreme failure with women. Know who else went through all of this? Nearly every professional athlete; except they have a different perspective on it. They are THANKFUL FOR THE FAILURE because it taught them HOW TO SUCCEED The failure ignited the fire in their belly; and all I can say is thank god for the red pill for lighting that fire in my belly.

          Be thankful for all the women in your past that you endured who taught you what to expect if you don't demonstrate masculine leadership (as in not being a spineless bitch, and not tolerating shitty behavior in partners), being her "rock", lifting and always working toward a nice physique, and ambition with money and/or your passion(s) in life. If you're doing all of this and you're not happy with her, just dump her and find a new girlfriend who respects you. These are very rare traits for men to have these days and chances are, there will be a woman somewhere who wants you more than the last one did.

          I've been down voted for having this outlook before on here; which I don't really care about.. But it just goes to show you how there are a lot of negative thinkers around here who still don't seem to get it.

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              [–]__ZEAL__ -1 points0 points  (3 children)

              Your example of acting like a beta is perfectly acceptable within AWALT, that she will leave your ass if you act like one too often. This is common knowledge here.

              I'm not sure you have any idea what you're talking about.

              [–]henry-jest 2 points3 points  (2 children)

              Most women want to go shopping at target and other "evil corporations" despite any leftist brainwashing.

              I agree with 99% of your post, but not with second part of this sentence. There are very evil corporations in USA, and this is no brainwashing, but truth. Don't turn this into politics (left or right), because corporations own both parties. If you don't see it I dont know where are you living...

              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I agree with you that companies like Walmart and Target do evil exploitative things; but I worded the sentence explicitly in that sense to make a point that, regardless of what a lot of folks learn in college and how they align their morals, they're still going to tend to gravitate (that majority of the time) toward what suits their immediate wants and needs: In this case, products that are slightly cheaper because they're made in conditions that American standards don't allow.

              I hope you can see what I'm saying. I don't align with right wing politics, and I'm certainly not a far left type; but I believe in being a humanist and treating workers with dignity. Oftentimes though if I'm in a rush or in a pinch with money; I will eat McDonalds, I will buy cheap furniture goods and clothing (usually just socks) from target or walmart. I feel like shit doing it, and don't particularly agree with myself morally but we're all hypocrites in some sense and I guess I should see it as something to work on with myself.

              [–]Kingspot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Thank you. I realized I was looking at it from a negative perspective this whole time.

              Fuck these bitches they are all like that

              I was thinking like "half of em will cheat on you and fuck you over eventually no matter what you do" You flipping the coin and saying "wouldnt you do the same" was enlightening.

              I am progressing further and further from the anger stage. I recently pointed out to myself all the things I learned from the girl that put me there. Your right. I now am thankful for the failure because she wasn't worth that much and now I know not to make those mistakes from now on.

              [–][deleted] 54 points55 points  (1 child)

              Yeah dude, RoK hasn't put out a good article in months.

              As for Roosh

              It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

              [–]DuncanMonroe 13 points14 points  (0 children)

              I lost all respect for him when he let Dr. Oz (of all people) punk him.

              [–]king_of_red_alphas 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              It's pretty clear that TRP is evolving from a system of analysis to a dogmatic ideology. Obviously, this happens to just about every movement / religion / ideology and TRP will be no different.

              TRP has essentially said all it can say about "sexual strategy" and is now branching into peripheral unrelated issues and claiming they are all evidence of X.

              Even though many of us came here to basically "get better with women and become better men", a huge part of TRP has thrown in their pet issues and hitched them to the cause.

              As TRP gets more dogmatic you see more and more confirmation bias and less self reflection. People try to end legitimate conversations by screaming AWALT or accusing their opponent of being a BP heretic.

              Its also probably fair to say that TRP attracts a lot of angry people (understandably) and those people will often scream the loudest and type the most while people actually applying TRP and working shit out in the real world / fucking girls won't be compelled to whine anonymously on the Internet as much.

              All that said, it's up to you to find and use the practical information on TRP that will help you live a better life without getting bogged down in anger-hamstering that will likely just make you seethe bitterness.

              [–]48LawsOfFlour 28 points29 points  (10 children)

              I jump on some of the anti-TRP subs every now and then. It's good to get a look at other perspectives, especially the ones that are just "anti" to whatever you are.

              Aside from "TRPER BAD" the subs that offer a different perspective than ours aren't very consistent in their messages. It's just a jumble of sarcasm, "witty" comments, and shitposts. TRP has its bad moments echo-chamber-wise but on the whole the community is actually very consistent, self-policing and thoughtful. The message doesn't change from month to month, or from minute to minute.

              [–]clint_bronson 19 points20 points  (4 children)

              I used to do that, and while i find myself thinking there are alot of misguided people here (myself included), when was the last (or first) time you've ever heard "TRP has destroyed my life, help!" or "Being Blue Pill was the best thing that ever happened to me".

              While those subs offer a counter ""argument"" they never offer a solution. TRP offers a solution (which provides results) whether you agree with it or not.

              [–]TheAureate 7 points8 points  (0 children)

              That right there; actionable advice. That's what makes a thought valuable.

              [–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (1 child)

              when was the last (or first) time you've ever heard "TRP has destroyed my life, help!" or "Being Blue Pill was the best thing that ever happened to me".

              There are subs like exredpill and punchingmorpheus, so there definitely are people who found TRP and became disillusioned with it. It's notable, though, that the combined subscribers on both of those subs is <4K compared to the >120K who subscribe here. If we throw in some reasonable assumptions:

              • Let's say 20K TRP subscribers only signed up because they wanted to downvote stuff, troll, or get their daily dose of outrage.
              • Let's say another 20K subscribers are so new to TRP that they couldn't yet be disillusioned.
              • Maybe there are other ex-TRP subreddits -- let's say this doubles the total amount of ex-TRP subscribers to a total of 8K.

              This gets us (conservatively) to 80K "true" current TRP subscribers and 8K people who have left TRP -- 88K total current and former members. Maybe 9% of people who find TRP leave it and are dissatisfied.

              [–]clint_bronson 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              And from those 4k i'd wager that most don't even know what trp is or ever applied it to their lives but yet sign up just to trash it.

              [–]DuncanMonroe 3 points4 points  (3 children)

              Yeah, I've noticed the way feminists especially argue is not arguing at all. They aren't putting out logic and reason, they're pumping out emotions, feelings, and reactions.

              The way they post is so strange, it reads like an angsty teen. What they'll do, is quote small blocks of text (often out of context), give a little commentary, and then move on to another quote. I never see refutations of points and on the rare occasion that I see facts and figures, they're literally made up, sourced from Jezebel and nowhere else, etc. The comments and responses are usually sarcastic or angry. They dodge addressing the issue using more mental gymnastics and emotional tricks than I even knew existed. I came to realize that when they write something like this, they have a different goal than we do. We are trying to get to the truth, or at least prove that our point of view is supported by facts. We're at least trying to convince the reader. They are often not even writing for the reader, but instead for themselves, as a way of venting all their anger, feelings, emotion. And when they are writing "for" the reader, the goal is not to convince the reader that the opposing argument is incorrect because it is not supported by facts, but to simply make the reader angry at the opposing viewpoint.

              It's like a different dimension where facts don't matter and are only to be manipulated and obfuscated, because if enough people decide that feelings are more important than facts, then they will be, because that's how society will operate. It's already happening, actually; in science and academia, there are questions that it's simply not permitted to ask, because the establishment fears that the results might be "non-pc" and go against the current political climate. I firmly believe that if scientists uncovered evidence that, say, black people or women were dumber than white people or men on a biological level, or that women, that the new knowledge would either be buried and ignored or tampered with, or at best they would do a little dance to explain why you shouldn't draw any conclusions and there are still so many factors we don't understand.

              Unfortunately, it could never even get to that point, because the study wouldn't happen in the first place because "it's racist/sexist". I don't believe for a minute that black people are less intelligent on a biological level, mind you, but if they WERE, I think we have a duty to science and knowledge and reason to accept the things we learn and not pick and choose based on who might get their feelz hurt or who might be offended.

              [–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              They dodge addressing the issue using more mental gymnastics and emotional tricks than I even knew existed. I came to realize that when they write something like this, they have a different goal than we do. We are trying to get to the truth, or at least prove that our point of view is supported by facts.

              Yes. Unsurprisingly girls on reddit behave like girls in an argument - pushing an agenda due to feelz, absolutely no debate or recognition of facts (which are basically an inconvenience to be got around), changing the subject rapidly, expecting to be treated like equals while spouting irrelevencies.

              How anyone could believe that girls argue like vicious psychopathic nazis in relationships with their loved ones but are really beautiful snowflakes who post logical and well reasoned arguments on reddit and in their psych class is beyond me.

              [–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              The way they post is so strange, it reads like an angsty teen. What they'll do, is quote small blocks of text (often out of context), give a little commentary, and then move on to another quote.

              It's the modern culture of looking for things to be offended about, puff up, rant and then, as soon as the feeling wears of, go and search for the next thing.

              Then again it is not that modern, and having a look at this sub or at MRA subs, it's not even exclusive to femicunts, SJWs and whiteknights.

              It's basically the same thing that elderly people do, when they lean out of their window on a pillow, observing their neighbours and commenting about them to their SO.

              It's the result of living a life which is so boring that you need to care about other people's life in order to feel fullfilled, or to even feel something. They care more about telling other people how to live their lifes and what to think than they do about their own lifes and to reflect on their own opinions and their moral narcissism.

              We often get accused to be empty inside, but to me it is pretty obvious that in fact these people are the ones who are. I couldn't give less fucks about what style of life they lead, since I am much too much occupied with getting my own shit together.

              They on the other hand are so empty, that they need to search for things to be offended about, or to feel sad by proxy, like the newest sob-story from around the world, just to feel anything, since their lifes do not offer those things to them.

              I pity them to be honest.

              [–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

              This post is awesome, but unfortunately you are not going to sway the ones already caught in that mindset.

              You can even see them in the post replies already.

              [–]__ZEAL__ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              It comes with the territory of using a useful lens that gets results, where other ideas do not. It's going to have those that defend it, due to how well it works.

              Just as with everything else, if it doesn't work, discard it. If it works, add it to your life.

              [–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

              I totally agree!

              Wait a minute...

              [–][deleted] 48 points49 points  (50 children)

              RoK and Roosh are dead, tbh I never gave them much attention anyways, but he's really gotten out of hand.

              [–]DreamBoatGuy25 10 points11 points  (2 children)

              Never really read much of either, out of curiosity why are they dead?

              [–]PedroIsWatching 43 points44 points  (1 child)

              Roost has been taking TRP concepts and ideas that we give away for free here and has been pay-walling it with derivative ebooks and subscriptions. That and general asshaty behavior when his flaws are pointed out to him.

              ROK is basically the manosphere Jezebel, full of useless rage clickbait and stupid "6 reasons why..." lists.

              [–]ButtFuggit -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              Sounds like someone didn't take his kratom this morning.

              [–]GurneyHalleck85 22 points23 points  (45 children)

              Legit. So has Heartiste, who is far worse than Roosh. Heartiste uses Red Pill relationship material as a recruiting tool for White Nationalism, and you can tell that the sort of people who leave comments on his blog are substantially keyboard jockying incels.

              [–]2insickness 17 points18 points  (2 children)

              Heartiste, a.k.a. Roissy in DC, has been pioneering Red Pill thought long before it was ever called Red Pill. 60% of the concepts I read on this subreddit he already said in some way. Don't believe me? His Sixteen Commandments of Poon was posted in 2008.

              [–]csehszlovakze 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              That's much older. No ma'am (a MGTOW blog) has posted that back in 2001: http://no-maam.blogspot.com/2001/01/roissys-sixteen-commandments-of-poon.html

              [–]GurneyHalleck85 4 points5 points  (0 children)

              I agree that Roissy in DC was a pioneer of the manoshphere, but Roissy has morphed into Heartiste, and Heartiste is more fundamentally interested in using Manosphere ideas as a recruitment tool for White Nationalism, which by necessity must have an impact on the ideas hey conveys with regards to relationships and women.

              [–]MrRexels 21 points22 points  (1 child)

              Heartiste just follows red pill mentality to it's logical conclusion. Once you know how get laid, you will want to move onto more meaningful stuff. After all, why do you think feminism, social justice and all that post-modernist crap started existing in the first place?

              [–]M3_Drifter 5 points6 points  (0 children)

              Heartiste just follows red pill mentality to it's logical conclusion.

              Agreed. He provides red pill in it's raw, undiluted form. I don't agree with his politics, but I'm adult enough to ignore the 10% of politicking fluff I don't care for.

              I'm sure many a man has gotten his introduction to red pill concepts from The Chateau. At least, it was where I ended up after realising the PUAs only had a slice of the pizza, not the whole thing.

              [–]theozoph 53 points54 points  (35 children)

              If opposition to multiculturalism and massive immigration is White Nationalism, then count me in.

              And why would white countries not be patriotic and nationalists, btw? Is anyone here complaining about Japan protecting itself from massive immigration, or China, or India?

              Is preserving one's culture only bad when whites do it? Wtf is going on here?

              The fact is, there's more than one Red Pill, and the easiest one to digest is sexual differences. But opening your eyes doesn't stop here.

              [–]cariboo_j 12 points13 points  (2 children)

              The problem with White Nationalism imo is that people are bonding over the color of their skin and not a set of ideas.

              I'm mixed race and am opposed to all the PC multicultural shit. Especially the European supplicating to Islamic fundamentalists. If I can't be part of a community because I don't have enough European DNA, that's retarded.

              [–]theozoph 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              "White Nationalism" is a leftist slur on patriotic sentiment, nothing more. France (my country) has never been defined by the race of its people, but by its language, traditions and culture. The USA has been a nation of immigrants from the beginning. Most western nations have known various waves of human migrations and integration, with little upheaval.

              The problem isn't the color of your skin, but your attachment (or lack of) to your culture, and your awareness of the danger massive immigration represents for it. Nobody cares when 10,000 immigrants arrive in a Nation of millions, but when it's 200,000-1,000,000/year, that is a problem. And it is as much (or even more of) a problem to native minorities as it is to the "white" majority, because they're the ones competing with you for jobs, housing and social services, and pushing wages down (the real reason immigration is so beloved of our elites).

              Add to this the social friction from widely divergent social mores (from which the same elites and well-off majority are insulated), and you have a perfect recipe for social unrest and racial tensions. Which, from the mercantile upper-class point of view, is much more preferable to social revendications.

              The "White Supremacist" narrative is a distraction concocted by people who desire nothing more than to see poor people and immigrants fight for the scraps falling from their table, and accusing each other of their ills, while ignoring the overlords feasting off their toil.

              That will be your Red Pill for today.

              [–]mryddlin 21 points22 points  (16 children)

              I call myself a culturalist, I'm proud of my cultural and I think it's better than the majority on the planet.

              I'm not ashamed of our past, both the good and bad is what made us. Our ancestors put in a lot of hard work so other cultures can benefit from it.

              I'm Canadian and I don't agree with multiculturalism as it has turned out, the PC mentality of the 90's wrapped it into catering to minorites instead of folding it into our own and making it better.

              Somehow it become that these foreign cultures get to be critical of mine but I can't say anything critical about the negative aspects of theirs without being labeled a racist.

              Western culture in general kicks ass and takes names, anyone that thinks their culture is better, while its on the bottom of the heap, is just butthurt and taking advantage of our culture.

              White nationalism is just labeling it with a negative connection, you could just say culturalism.

              We need to remind people that it is only our cultural that lets people do this, who the fuck else would let them dominate their political and social conventions.

              None but the west, what makes us great is also a weakness. Our ability to work with a wide range of different personalities and get the fucking job done, leaves us open to the fuckery going on now.

              My own perspective I see it tappering off, people are getting fed up and tried of all the whining.

              [–]joleyline 13 points14 points  (15 children)

              Western culture in general kicks ass and takes names, anyone that thinks their culture is better, while its on the bottom of the heap, is just butthurt and taking advantage of our culture.

              The west is riding on pure momentum at this point. First/second-gen immigrants are doing the real work, and they're feeling increasingly alienated by 'western culture'.

              FFS the entire point of TRP is how Western culture is entering degeneracy. There is nothing people like you can do to stop it. TRP teaches you how to look after yourself after having been betrayed by society, and yet you still romanticize that same society.

              [–]mryddlin 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              I don't disagree with that statement on immigrants and I was speaking to the historical narrative, ie the west does kick ass and is the most successful culture to date, you should be proud to be part of that.

              I don't agree with the room and gloom narratives either, the data does not point to the end of our culture, we will come through this and it will make us stronger.

              What do you think the cultural output of things like TRP are going to be 20 years from now? It's not going to be the pansy ass SJW clusterfuckery we live in now.

              Even with all these handy caps we are still on top. China isn't going to go the distance anymore that the Japan owning the world shit if the 90's, or the oil crisis of the 70's, of the Soviets in the 50's and 60's etc etc.

              Don't believe the hype on either side, TRP is about bettering Oneself and guess what happens when you aggregate many people doing the same thing, at the same time.

              It changes shit, so don't pretend to be a seer and know the future. It's still wide fucking open and we have a damn good shot at winning.

              You can give up, I haven't and won't.

              Edit: I didn't clarify my position and why I have it. We have an adaptable culture, more so than any other on history.

              It's represented by our technologies, both physical and mental. We are still bringing in more and more people to our way of thinking, and that is because its successful.

              TRP and other frameworks are quite literally culture pills, medicine for the ills that have grown with in it. Push back or what ever you want to call it but its a direct reaction to the dangers in our society.

              The output from this is going to change the dynamic, ideologies always run out of steam. They are moral ponzi schemes and can only pay out by recruiting new members.

              The things we are most concerned about, the actions you label a betrayal is to me, just letting the children run the candy shop.

              The process of taking it back has started awhile ago and will bare fruit in the future. It's not going to be what either of us expect but I don't think we are going to end up on the bottom of the heap.

              It's technology at the heart of it all and how we live, produce and interact is all centered around that.

              [–]joleyline 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              China isn't going to go the distance anymore

              Looks like you need to take The Red Pill.

              There's a lot of wishful thinking regarding China collapsing in the next few years, but if you dig a little deeper and actually start reading reputable geopolitical papers and looking at the actions of those with actual money at stake, the China=Japan narrative is super flimsy. The earliest time at which China might start having truly serious problems is ~2030, but everyone knows that China is going pass the US in nominal GDP around the end of this decade. Japan never even got close.

              It changes shit, so don't pretend to be a seer and know the future. It's still wide fucking open and we have a damn good shot at winning. You can give up, I haven't and won't.

              I didn't give up, I was never a member of the West. Blacks and hispanics are going to far outnumber the anglos/jews/mormons in a couple of years. The West has no chance.

              [–]theozoph 4 points5 points  (7 children)

              That anti-culture you're talking about is progressivism, and its constant destruction of our values and traditions. Is there any other culture that so routinely spits on its own past, its traditions, its religion, its heroes, its classical authors, its own customs and morals as routinely as we've been doing since that cultural virus started destroying us?

              Apart from Cultural Revolution's China (but where did its Marxist roots originate, really?), I fail to see a single culture that has committed self-destruction with as much gusto as we've been doing in the last century.

              How far exactly are we going to push this before opening our eyes? Western culture is degenerating because it is no longer valued. And it is no longer valued because charlatans and shysters have convinced us their new religion of Progress would take us to the Promised Land, and out of the (largely invented) Darkness of our past.

              They have failed spectacularly. Time to reevaluate both our past, and where we're headed, with clear eyes.

              [–]joleyline 2 points3 points  (4 children)

              Western culture is degenerating because it is no longer valued.

              The bigger problem is that it's no longer understood.

              (largely invented) Darkness of our past.

              This kind of hubris is why I'm not sad to see Western culture die a slow and painful death. I didn't cry for the Native Americans, and I'm not going to cry for Western millennials.

              [–]theozoph 7 points8 points  (3 children)

              This kind of hubris is why I'm not sad to see Western culture die a slow and painful death.

              Most of the crimes of Western culture are the crimes of Progressivism. Industrial exploitation? Progressives. Colonialism ? Progressives. Racism? Yeah, progressives again (not even kidding, scientific racism was invented by liberals).

              The traditional world was patriarchal, martial, hierarchical, and religious. Not materialistic, mercantile, exploitative and transgressive. Whatever crimes you think Western civilization committed, I can assure you most of them you can lay at the feet of the liberal "heroes". It would be like blaming Chinese civilization for the crimes of Mao Tse-Tung.

              [–]DuncanMonroe 4 points5 points  (2 children)

              You say "martial and religious" almost as though they're good things.

              [–]theozoph 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Compared to "mercantile" and "materialistic", they're not so bad.

              "Martial" doesn't mean militaristic, it means the people making the decision have a direct experience of conflict and its horrors. That they have the backbone to make personal sacrifices for their goals, and think twice before engaging in warfare. Compare that to hawkish Hillary Rodham Clinton, and tell me we're better off now.

              And "religious" really means guided by spiritual principles before materialistic ones. When utilitarianism is the standard used to judge everything, humans soon start looking like tools, means to an end. That is the pitfall into which all "progressivist" ideals have tumbled, and which gave us most of the horrors of the modern age.

              In earlier times, weapons were banned for being inhumane (firethrowers for example, and even crossbows for a time), and warring European armies often left their wounded for the enemy to tend, knowing they would be well-cared for. It took progressive ideals to unleash genocide, death camps, bacteriological warfare, and the systematic targeting of civilian populations.

              Those are the fruits of progressive "rationalism", too.

              [–]DuncanMonroe 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              I'll just say fuck tradition and especially fuck religion. Most consistent source of damage, evil, hatred, ignorance, and impediment to progress and learning that the world has ever known. Atheism is it's own red pill that people need to swallow, with religion standing in opposition, as feminism does to TRP, trying (out of sheer ignorance and genuine belief/delusion, not malice) to hold us back

              [–]theozoph 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Most consistent source of damage, evil, hatred, ignorance, and impediment to progress and learning that the world has ever known.

              Spoken like a true brainwashed good progressivist. Believe it or not, the part I've bolded is the only true reason tradition is so decried in the West.

              "Progress" is our new God, and it must destroy the old world to impose its New Order on the world. It's also destroying the Living World itself, but who cares as long as we "progress" to ever-greater degeneracy and hubris, heh?

              [–][deleted]  (4 children)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]DuncanMonroe 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                  For sure. I'm still clinging to the naïve hope that Bernie can make something happen, though.

                  [–]J_Dizzle1000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  At this point in time, I had a thought the other day that scared me.

                  I love the good ol' U S of A so damn much that I'd probably be arrested an executed for flying my American flag long after the US is gone. Although this probably won't happen since they will have to pry my gun and flag from my cold dead hands.

                  That thought popped in my head while I was at the gym listening to The Way of Men again. As much as I continue to sacrifice for this country and lose my friends so dumb ass politicaians can pretend to give a shit, I believe that this land is too damn beautiful to give up on.

                  [–]WingTune0 14 points15 points  (0 children)

                  /TRP is redpilling on gender, sexual strategy, and so on. There are other places that redpill you on history, race, liberal-brainwashing, etc.

                  Edit: For those downvoting me in this sub, quit acting like a whiny sjw/feminist, and do some actual research.

                  [–]GurneyHalleck85 7 points8 points  (8 children)

                  If you read Heartiste's blog it's obvious that he is using Red Pill material about relationships/sex/women as a base for other ideas which people might not give as much of a shit about --after all, they could always go to Stormfront, and Heartiste's posts about blacks/immigration etc are not so different from Stormfront material. Heartiste is not confident that his White Nationalist sympathesies can stand by themselves as a blog, so he has to piggy-back that material on Red Pill ideas. This is bs.

                  [–]theozoph 2 points3 points  (7 children)

                  It's his own fucking blog, he can talk about whatever he wants. If you don't like some subjects, you can stop being a huge faggot and read something else.

                  And if White Nationalism irks you so much, you have the option of going to live in a more colored country, how about that? I hear South Africa is lovely this time of the year, and recently freed from that terrible white oppression you seem to dislike so much. Go, and enjoy the diversity, what's stopping you?

                  My prediction is that, unless you're a minority yourself (but given the nerdiness of your handle, I doubt it), you probably live in a segregated community, far from any "diversity" not making 6 figures, like all the liberal idiots on reddit.

                  [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                  [removed]

                    [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    We aren't "trying to do" anything. Your bullshit about caring about our image is more damaging to the community than any image the community will ever have.

                    [–]theozoph 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                    Oh, noes, our precious reputation!!!

                    We're not trying to do anything, faggot. We're simply presenting hushed information. If you don't have the stomach to act on it, it's your fucking problem.

                    This isn't r./MensRights.

                    [–]GurneyHalleck85 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

                    There's plenty of White Nationalist horse-shit I don't read. Heartiste knows it's horse-shit, which is why he has to piggy-back that shit on Red Pill topics. He gives false hope to the Dylan Roof types who comment on his blog that they can merely will themselves to getting pussy and bans people for talking about the importance of looks. That, to me, is evidence he's now primarily interested in using manosphere ideas as a recruiting tool for a different agenda.

                    [–]theozoph -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                    He gives false hope to the Dylan Roof types who comment on his blog

                    "Dylan Roof types"... now I know I'm talking to a leftist. One day we'll have to start systematically referring to liberals as "Pol Pot types".

                    that they can merely will themselves to getting pussy and bans people for talking about the importance of looks.

                    Another defeatist depressive-type, I see. No wonder you're a liberal.

                    he's now primarily interested in using manosphere ideas as a recruiting tool for a different agenda.

                    Or perhaps, when you develop a backbone and start speaking truth, you stop caring who you offend.

                    [–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                    Is anyone here complaining about Japan protecting itself from massive immigration, or China, or India?

                    People call out Japan for being racist as hell all the time -- you don't have to look far to find the same things being said about China, India, and a host of other countries, too.

                    Is preserving one's culture only bad when whites do it?

                    There are annual celebrations of German and Irish culture nationwide in every U.S. city. It's fine to preserve white culture; what people object to is demonizing other cultures.

                    [–]theozoph 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                    you don't have to look far to find the same things being said about China, India, and a host of other countries, too.

                    By themselves? No, only "western" culture is so masochistic.

                    what people object to is demonizing other cultures.

                    Which is exactly what is done daily to European/Western cultures.

                    [–]disposable_pants 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    Who cares if they fail to self-critique? Who cares if they demonize outsiders? I don't want to play down to that level.

                    [–]Redpillc0re -1 points0 points  (2 children)

                    sorry guys, you may disagree with them, but if you came here to shit on roosh and CH you re deluding yourselves. Despite their occasional faults they are fundamental part of the manosphere and they helped to awaken the minds of what is not called TRP. If you can't provide a more solid alternative or contribution to the manosphere yourselves , then you 're just being assholes.

                    [–]DuncanMonroe 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                    The accomplishments of yesterday don't forgive the sins of today. They've gone rouge and are hurting more than helping by making our ideology guilty by association.

                    [–]GurneyHalleck85 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                    Yes, Roissy/Heartiste contributed mightily once to the manosphere. He doesn't do that anymore. He oscillates between outrage and silly PUA advice, but his heart is more in White Nationalism. That his heart is more on race topics necessarily impacts his Red Pill messaging, because if his readers are substantially Stormfront types, then he has to change the tune of what he has to say. It's not very "red pill" when you ban people for disagreeing with you (yes, it's his blog, but he has banned me for taking issue with his PUA stances, which I found cowardly.)

                    [–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP 29 points30 points  (30 children)

                    Most of the criticism levelled at TRP has no logical basis or follows any causal links based in principle or fact. It starts from the idea of women being equals and then goes from there. This is poor debating because you base your arguments on an assumption... one in this case which can be challenged. Women are typically physically weaker, typically less intelligent and typically far less emotionally stable. - I fail to see how this is equal.

                    The second problem tends to come from those who criticise TRP being incapable of understanding nuance or the subtlety of similar yet mutually exclusive points. i.e. they can't reconcile the ideas that believing women are inferior, and also believing they deserve similar basic rights to men such as not being tortured, not being violently assaulted, not being robbed, not being defrauded etc etc (just list laws that apply for the protection of both men and women here.)

                    That's a fairly broad basis to dismiss a large proportion of the nonsense which disparages TRP. Due to this, there is a fairly large proportion of the basic material on TRP which you should question and evaluate more privately because we've already done that. (It is also why you're told to read the sidebar first before contributing.) If that was not the case, we would be constantly inundated with topics that questioned the basis of TRP (poorly) and it would flood/waste the space of the frontpage.

                    I've posted on how Debating and Discussion as a man will promote intellectual growth. There may be mere echo chamber guys here... but there's also some independent thinkers. It's down to you to decide who is who.

                    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

                    Well said. This is what I was getting at.

                    "4."Understanding the strengths of opposing viewpoints and appreciating them is essential," ...especially if you want to completely undermine the opponent's viewpoints"

                    [–][deleted]  (10 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]Subtletorious 10 points11 points  (2 children)

                      The argument is that at both extremes of the bell curve (+-3d) men out number women. Google.

                      Lazy writers then dumb this down to say "Men are smarter than women".

                      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]Subtletorious 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        That was a very interesting video.

                        I can only fault the poor wording of "Men are smarter than women". That sort of reductionism implies that the dumbest man is smarter than the smartest women. We need a better phrase so the average man doesn't think he is somehow smarter than 99% of women.

                        We must also remember we are talking about populations and not individuals. Because the differences are relatively small, it is not possible to reach a conclusion about an individual based upon their race, sex, etc. However, it is possible to see trends in populations when the variation of individuals accumulates.

                        [–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                        Do you seriously need a citation to prove men are more emotionally stable?

                        [–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                        I do not have specific scientific papers to prove this. I am of the opinion that much of academia is subject to political correctness because while some of these great men are vastly intelligent, they tend to lack social intelligence and are therefore very beta in their dealings with women.

                        Much of TRP is based upon shared observances and anecdotal evidence. While that is worthless to a scientist... I am not a scientist. A philosopher will accept anecdotal evidence because it will satisfy the basics of inductive reasoning. I look to the fields of scientific advancement and see them dominated by men. I look at invention and see that it is still dominated by men. I look back at great philosophers over the years... men. I am also yet to find a woman who is more intelligent than me. Some could be considered equally intelligent but they're very rare.

                        So from the more typical standpoint, yes women are less intelligent than men.

                        To be honest I don't even have a thought process to justify why women are less emotionally stable than men... it's just one of those things I've kinda known my whole life. I think TRP is quite happy to accept that one without going to minute detail because all of us have seen it throughout our lives. Though if I had to make an argument, I think I could just say "time of the month" and then sit down while wise heads nodded all around me lol.

                        [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                        I also think there is a certain element that take amorality and turn it into reveling in traditionally immoral practices. Its like the difference between, "I was hungry so I took this candy from that baby and ate it" and, "Haha look at me, I took that babies candy, isn't that badass!"

                        [–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        TRP tries to address these issues... but ultimately when you encourage men to become leaders... not everyone is going to become Marcus Aurelius. You're going to get some Ghengis Khans and Attillas appearing too. Like everything in life, it's not a 100% positive outcome. When we talk about defending freedom of speech, you end up defending the people with all the worst things to say. Even with the shit, it's better than the alternative.

                        There are attempts to mitigate potential damage from amorality and the faulty logic that just because sexual strategy (a biological reality) is amoral, then your decisions (a human construct applied to reality) can be amoral too. /u/illimitableman has an excellent post on The Red Pill, You & Morality which I think should probably be spread more often.

                        [–]__ZEAL__ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        Understanding where morals actually come from is pretty key.

                        Moral and ethical values come from one simple question, posed by the lizard brain: "Is this productive to the human species surviving?". If it's not productive, it's usually on the immoral side. If it is productive, it's ethically sound. The thing is, often the ethical side will require you to sacrifice for the greater good. I'm not so interested in that nowadays, sacrifice now tends to only happen when it directly benefits myself in some way(where it used to happen for nothing in return often).

                        While I understand what you're saying that people are doing(as it's happening more often here), anyone who isn't retarded can tell the difference between the two.

                        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

                        Most of the criticism levelled at TRP has no logical basis or follows any causal links based in principle or fact.

                        TRP is valuable and my life has improved since I've started reading this sub.

                        That being said, TRP methods can easily be used for selfish ends, e.g. intentionally seducing a married woman. Yet there doesn't seem to be a strong consensus about morality on TRP. (For example, "should you sleep with married women?" seems to generate heated discussions.) It seems like some TRPers embrace being a dick (sometimes justifying it with "being selfish ultimately makes everyone better off"), some TRPers choose not to be dicks and some TRPers sidestep the question entirely by questioning whether the concept of "morality" even applies or has inherent meaning.

                        This lack of consensus about morality has a few problems:

                        • Logically speaking, either being selfish or not being selfish is the better advice for most people. So why don't we find out which of the two it is and then recommend that?

                        • A statement like "there's a TRP consensus that all newbies should lift" is both encouraging and practically helpful. A statement "choose yourself whether you want to be selfish" isn't. Imagine if we told newbies "hey, some of us think you should lift, other people think you shouldn't. So do whatever."

                        • Many new TRP members are confused and hurt people. Giving them powerful and potentially harmful tools and then saying "you choose how to use these tools" seems a bit irresponsible. Shouldn't TRP veterans with experience and a clear head tell newbies "it's ultimately your choice, but you're not thinking straight right now, so don't be immoral because you'll likely regret it" or "it's ultimately your choice, but you're not thinking straight right now and being completely amoral is the fastest way to swallow the red pill"?

                        [–]truchisoft 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                        A statement like "there's a TRP consensus that all newbies should lift" is both encouraging and practically helpful. A statement "choose yourself whether you want to be selfish" isn't. Imagine if we told newbies "hey, some of us think you should lift, other people think you shouldn't. So do whatever."

                        The difference is, being selfish or not makes no difference to your sexual strategy... well, in fact, being selfish will actually give you a bigger pool of women to fuck, but we understand it can bring you a world of trouble, similar to using steroids.

                        So you lift but is up to you to take enhacement drugs.
                        And you game but is up to do it to taken girls.

                        See the difference?

                        [–]DuncanMonroe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        I don't mess with married women, but a "relationship" is fair game. I have no respect for anyone else's relationships but my own, anyway. If she ends up fucking me or being persuaded, regardless of what I do, it's on her and maybe the relationship wasn't that strong anyway. After all, there are millions of men out there who would fuck "girl x with a boyfriend" if they had the opportunity.

                        [–]Senior ContributorNightwingTRP 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                        A statement like "there's a TRP consensus that all newbies should lift" is both encouraging and practically helpful. A statement "choose yourself whether you want to be selfish" isn't. Imagine if we told newbies "hey, some of us think you should lift, other people think you shouldn't. So do whatever."

                        Ultimately, we are teaching men to be leaders. While they need to follow at first in order to learn... ultimately there must be a point where we release them to make their own choices. We help them raise their SMV, from there it's upto each individual what they do. They must become the leader of their own lives.

                        I wrote a piece on morality a long time ago which was very negatively received by the majority. Some veterans made comments on it and viewed it positively as a sensible analysis of a complex topic. I eventually deleted it because I wasn't 100% happy with it and was beginning to run my own sort of moral experiments. TRP can provide you with information, but ultimately you need to decide how you're going to use and apply it.

                        You finished your response with the suggestion that telling someone they're not thinking straight right now would be a good idea. I've been told I'm one of the deeper thinkers on here. I've also been told my attitude and understanding of it is excellent. Then I've also been told I'm deep in the anger phase. A couple of people have read my field reports and called me a psychopath. Which is it? The sub itself can't even make up its own mind as to whether I'm thinking straight or not. Therefore I wouldn't trust them. Listen to the veterans if you like, but ultimately TRP is just a bunch of men who've got together to discuss the realities of the situation without whiny feelings-first twats getting in the way. We compare experiences and swap advice, but we're all in control of ourselves and our own decisions. This is the way it should be if you're leading your own life.

                        [–]__ZEAL__ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                        TRP is only teachings of ways to become more than you are.

                        It is not morality. It should not be morality. And it never will be focused on morality.

                        It's simply a guide of "if you do this, this thing will happen". What people think about the moral complications of it is just noise and irrelevant. People's morals are their own, the only thing that matters is letting people know what consequences come with each action. It's up to those reading to decide if they are okay with those consequences or not.

                        We aren't here to police each other on morality. That's for SJW's and betas. Do what falls within your moral compass, but do not be disappointed if you find yourself lacking because of it.

                        Those with no moral compass who have figured out ways of avoiding the blowback from their choices, are the most successful people in the world.

                        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                        That link on debating is sweet reading.

                        [–]DreamBoatGuy25 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                        A big part of the problem with any debate is that people argue past one another. Take your example of starting with the idea that women are equal. Equality is rarely defined well in these types of debates. Equal in rights? I think most can agree that they should have equal rights? Equal biologically? Obviously not.

                        As a scientist one of things I find the silliest about almost any of these debates, particular those related to sex and gender, is that they are very rarely being done by hard scientists. It's always some political writer or at most someone with a degree from the humanities department. I can tell you that "critical theory" is considered a joke by academics in behavioral science.

                        [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                        [removed]

                          [–]AEther_Flux 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                          We all have to be careful that we don't snap our necks while sucking our own dicks.

                          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                          You always need to take a break and try to pretend that the other side of the argument is true. Refusing to entertain an opposing idea just makes you closed-minded.

                          [–]jx234 14 points15 points  (20 children)

                          TRP suffers from all the same drawbacks that any system which claims to be able to explain all human behavior - such as Marxism - does. More specifically, any system which is not falsifiable. In science, any example of a case which contradicts a theory refutes that theory. The theory then becomes rubbish and is discarded. Thats why I dislike the use of theory in this context, with its connotations of comprehensive truth. It doesnt help tgat a lot of people here, when they observe something which doesnt fit their model, play it down and suggest it is to an anomaly, or isn't in the right circumstances or something. Nor does it help that the one thing TRP prizes above all else is logic. (See u/NightwingTRP below. Incidentally, he claims that women are typically less intelligent than men. Assuming you use IQ (and that's by no means a perfect way of defining "intelligence", then the average woman is actually the same as the man, but with more very stupid and very clever men.)

                          What TRP is, is a series of statements and assumptions about men and about women, and their interaction, which, from observing the world, appear to be more accurate than those which have been posited elsewhere, especially those of mainstream liberal society. When it comes to human behaviour, of course it makes sense to draw on evolutionary psychology to a degree in order to explain why men and women choose the partners they do. But theories like that are just simplified models which even their originators admit are of limited relevance today. To say, "women prefer stronger males because at the time our brains evolved it was stronger males who mated with them" is a gross oversimplification. (The premise could be true but the reasoning false and vice versa). Scientists (and I'm one of them) actually don't understand many things. Take hormones for example. We have some idea of how they work, but we haven't fully understood them. The main reason is determining how multiple non static phemomena interact with each other. That's the key word, interaction. The ways in which hormones interact with each other, or different parts of the brain etc.

                          I recommend purpillpilldebate. Some interesting discussions there.

                          My main criticism of TRP, by the way is that it does not apply its cynicism about women to men as well. Most men possess as many of the negative traits they ascribe to women.

                          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                          [deleted]

                            [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                            Men should beer men

                            Truer words have never been spoken, I raise my glass to salute you.

                            [–]Primemale 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                            My main criticism of TRP, by the way is that it does not apply its cynicism about women to men as well. Most men possess as many of the negative traits they ascribe to women.

                            I'm with you on this one, also the fact that we have our own set of inherent traits some of which could be viewed as potentially negative, certainly from the opposite sex. Although to be fair, TRP is fighting back against a system which favours female sexual imperative, because that is the priority it is not touched upon as much.

                            [–]truchisoft 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                            how is that useful for your sexual strategy?

                            [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                            Also, what you're mentioning is people try to come up with their own theories with a bad EvoPsych foundation. I'd say that's why the discipline has so much criticism. It's actually where Roosh and some people on this sub fail.

                            While there are some anecdotal observations within the PUA community and links to EP studies. People can't start creating theories without supportive empirical research.

                            If you're reading this and you use evolutionary reasoning without knowing the research, I recommend you find the related articles (not a link summarizing an article) and educate yourself. Just as important is knowing the misconceptions and critiques of the field.

                            [–]jx234 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            Couldn't agree more. The problem of collecting empirical data appears to be the biggest one.

                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            Great points. Never gave that sub a look, but I might now.

                            [–]1thiasus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                            In science, any example of a case which contradicts a theory refutes that theory. The theory then becomes rubbish and is discarded

                            Yeeaaah no. A counterexample to a theory creates a theoretical issue for that theory, and a lot of discussion starts trying to understand:

                            • whether that counterexample is real (it could be a false result, or something that has been ill-interpreted)

                            • whether it's true that the theory breaks because of that counterexample (for example, the theory might have to be understood in a new way)

                            • finally, whether the theory can be salvaged by extending or modifying it

                            It practically never happens that an established theory gets outright binned because of a counterexample. Neither should that happen with TRP.

                            [–]Vovamas 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                            RoK was the site that alkost turned me away from manosphere. Last time I checked the comment section, there were fanatics saying shariah law would be good in America.

                            [–]Pathfinder24 13 points14 points  (12 children)

                            The red pill is most definitely an echo chamber. There are occasionally mod posts about how debate and criticism are banned.

                            Kinda undermines claims to legitimacy.

                            [–]studiov34 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                            It's so true, we can't let anyone scrutinize it.

                            Isn't that the definition of dogma?

                            [–]disposable_pants 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            It's great how all the posts about TRP banning people for saying things they don't like are still up. Really proving their point.

                            [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (8 children)

                            If I only read TRP, then I'd think that the misandry bubble is the single greatest threat to civilization and peak oil, peak soil, declining EROEI and climate change don't exist.

                            Yes, out of control feminism is a problem, but it's not the only one.

                            [–]Dr_HoaxArthurWilmoth 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                            It is important to the people here at this point in time now. I would be reticent to belittle people visiting here because there are serious geo-political problems.

                            If you aren't interested in improving yourself, why would be serious about improving these world issues?

                            Oh yeah, I am sure that the people confronting these issues in a serious manner are positing on a subReddit. You are coming off as a condescending fedora, be better than that.

                            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                            To be clear: I do think TRP is valuable. It's helped me a lot so far. I also agree that feminism is a big problem.

                            However, suppose I'd post a condescending comment that supports the TRP philosophy, for instance "newbies should shut up and read more" or "liberals/progressives are all dumb" or "women are children and feminists are hypocrites." Then nobody would call me out for being condescending. Even if someone would, then other posters might defend me with "don't thought police us" or "if you're offended then you're a pussy" or "ha, your ideas must be so weak that they can't stand up to discussion."

                            Apparently, if I post a condescending comment that challenges the TRP philosophy ("yes feminism is a problem but it's not the only problem"), then me being condescending suddenly does matter. What happened to "if you're offended then you're a pussy"?

                            This right here is the echo chamber in action.

                            [–]neptronix 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                            You're creating a lot of excess carbon emissions and hot air yourself right now, buddy.

                            [–]disposable_pants 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                            If I only read TRP

                            If I only read Sports Illustrated I think there's nothing in the world but football, baseball, basketball, and occasionally hockey/soccer/cricket/tennis. Almost nothing is meant to be read in a vacuum.

                            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                            [deleted]

                            [–]Dr_HoaxArthurWilmoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                            Intriguing theory. I am not going to up or down vote it, but will revisit it at a later time to reevaluate it.

                            [–][deleted]  (7 children)

                            [deleted]

                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (6 children)

                            Do you remember that debate a couple years back, I think it was the first one of the presidential election, where Romney rocked Obama?

                            What happened there is Obama lived/lives in a bubble where his frame is never challenged. Everyone is his bitch and subordinate to him. With the exception of MAYBE some foreign rulers (Saudi Royals, Israeli power brokers, etc.) he literally had no one who dared speak to him as an equal. As such he had no recent experience with holding frame against an aggressor.

                            Rush is in the same zone. He has people kissing his ass 24/7. He has people whose full time job it is to make sure no one even gets on the telephone who might shake his frame.

                            Therefore his frame and physique are so terrible from atrophy. That and women can smell anger/bitterness, which is him in a nut shell.

                            We have all seen it a hundred times. Dude doesn't get laid, gets mad/bitter. Women sense the mad/bitter, and don't want to fuck the emitter of said vibes.

                            Drugs Limbaugh I think is exhibit A. in the "money doesn't buy happiness" trial.

                            [–]Dr_HoaxArthurWilmoth 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                            I am with you all the way, except the "Mitt rocked Obama first debate". The only thing Mitt ever rocked were a pair of expensive cuff-links.

                            Those are not debates, they are puppet shows where no one can call bullshit on either side and the moderator might as well be a random computer.

                            As far as Obama goes, I never trust anyone who has never been in a physical fight. He recently admitted that he has never been in a real fight. If no one wants to kick your ass, then you never stood up for anything to the best of your ability, win or lose.

                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                            There is that scene in Fight Club where he says something like, "Most men have never been in a real fight. They will do anything to avoid it." which I thought was bullshit. Asking around though there is a pretty big segment of men who haven't ever been in a knock down drag out.

                            I try not to fight anymore because when I was bouncing as a kid one of the bouncers at a neighboring bar punched a guy outside his bar, dude fell down hit a sewer grate and died. Manslughter I think he got.

                            But when I was a kid I used to fight plenty.

                            With Obama I bet its the fact that he is such a good talker. Some kid starts to talk shit, little Obama probably talks the kid out of his lunch money. Still though you would think inevitably he would have to throw down at some point.

                            Maybe he is lying, I mean politicians lie.

                            [–]Dr_HoaxArthurWilmoth 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                            Great points.

                            The older you get, the greater the penalties (civil, physical, financial) become.

                            But if you have never been in fight before 12, 14 or 17 - what happened in your life to never gain that experience? I avoided physical conflict 19/20 times due to de-escalation, humor, negotiations and avoidance whenever I could.

                            Who has grown up playing sports that didn't have a knock down drag out fight - even with friends?

                            I think winning and losing a fight are milestones in masculinity. I think they are important and I view any male friend or colleague who says they have never been in one in a different view - not necessarily contempt - but less than respect.

                            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                            I agree. Getting your ass beat can also be an excellent teachable moment.

                            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                            [deleted]

                              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              I know the type. She has this idea in her head that she isn't going to be like those girls who are attracted to high value confident men but instead wants to be attracted to white knights.

                              This of course leaves her sexually frustrated and hating herself for the fact that she is not satisfied by her beta boyfriend.

                              [–]idontwanttostart 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                              Absolutely. TRP seems a bit of a circlejerk. Downvote away. But a lot of this shit isn't about becoming a better man/person.

                              I'm probably gay. But what the fuck ever.

                              [–]neptronix -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                              Most of reddit is a circlejerk. Sorry, but it's true.

                              Human nature showing it's ugly face on a medium that was designed to be the ultimate attainment of freedom of speech, sadly.

                              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                              [deleted]

                              [–]neptronix 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              I agree. I also hold the view that men / women are not better or inferior to each other. They're just different. Biology designed us to work together, and so did culture.

                              Divisive ideologies such as femenism have really fucked up that symbiotic coexistance.

                              Creating an ideology that is an inverse of femenism is not a way to correct it. Tearing divisive and nonsensical ideologies apart limb by limb is.

                              [–]a_nus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              There is indeed a lot of circlejerking that goes on in here, just like any other well established sub.

                              [–]1jimjackjoe 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                              Can you give some specific examples of behavior you have seen here that is like what you describe, so I can get a better sense of exactly what you mean? Because I find debate is tolerated here, as long is it is a) not totally stupid and b) not off-topic. What is an example of a debate that should have been had but was blocked and/or hated? You might be saying something more nuanced than what I'm thinking about.

                              [–]Requi3m -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                              The mods are constantly making posts saying debate is not tolerated.

                              [–]truchisoft 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                              Pointless debate is not tolerated, this post is an example of how debate is tolerated.

                              [–]ramot1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              I read somewhere that if I can't argue for an opposing point of view, it means that I don't understand it well. Understanding an opposing view seems essential to understanding my own view point.

                              I admit I don't always follow this idea, but I think everybody would be better for doing so. Would you agree?

                              [–]awayofthought 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              Great post, probably the best one this week. This is also becoming a serious problem on asktrp, where only one answer is given that doesn't really help anyone.

                              [–]stillnoturday 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              The base of what TRP is, self improvement.

                              [–]chadchadington 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              Some argue the first man to "wake up" was Warren Farrell, in so much as he had extensive experience speaking on behalf of feminism until he noticed patterns and changed his approach and became a pariah for doing so--also an author of his beliefs.

                              People like Roosh become idolized too much. Too many men weakened by the new insights brought to them by TRP look for a new god. Learn, apply and find your new path. I see too much ass-kissing everything these men say as opposed to discourse. Roosh used to be good. I've notice low-levels of racist commentary and misogyny. Plus he seems to be hell bent on creating a brand and profiting as the expense of TRP ideology. Rollo, on the other hand makes profit from his book sales but his price point is low enough as not to exclude people from acquiring his material. Also, he mentions he's not in it for profit and allows all comments (agreeable and dissent) on his website.

                              Honestly I never understood banning people or downvoting. I see this behavior the same as the FI's attempts at censorship of ideas they don't like. Like a child. "Don't like what I like? I'm not playing with you anymore!"

                              [–]BlueFreedom420 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              There is always going to be an echo chamber/sycophant party in any place of thought and discussion. The real test is leading yourself.

                              Been reading these forums for about 6 months and I havent seen anything as bad as the shit you see on feminist/SJW forums.

                              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              It's hard to avoid echo chambers. People like to congregate around people who think the same and won't challenge their world view.

                              To be truly informed you must be willing to visit sites that you don't necessarily agree with and who may frame an argument in a way you aren't comfortable with. That means watching both Fox and CNN and MSNBC to gain a complete perspective and if possible foreign news like Al Jazeera or BBC for yet another (or reading them if you prefer).

                              That said, it's often impossible to engage in a rational and logical discussion. A recent discussion here on TRP between myself and DannyDemotta started with me citing the Consumer Price Index to show how inflation doesn't rise after a minimum wage increase and how "free labor economies" will stagnate and fail and him responding with "filthy liberal" and fuck this and fuck that.

                              Responding politely to his rant did no good. I should have simply remembered the prime rule of winning any debate.

                              Rule #1 of winning a debate. Once you have outlined your argument using facts and logic and your opponent has insulted you, attacked your character, or simply says "Nuh Uh" without citing a single reason why, I need only declare victory for his failure to respond cogently and move on.

                              In this last case I said some things I definitely meant and would be more than happy to back up in person, but which probably aren't very productive to the discussion.

                              Oh well.

                              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              This comment has been overwritten by an open source script to protect this user's privacy.

                              If you would like to do the same, add the browser extension GreaseMonkey to Firefox and add this open source script.

                              Then simply click on your username on Reddit, go to the comments tab, and hit the new OVERWRITE button at the top.

                              [–]Requi3m 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                              Yeah the mods here in TRP love to threaten to ban people for disagreeing with them. No different then the feminazi subreddits.

                              [–]waylandertheslayer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              There's a great mindset I try to have that is really important: "Not every change is an improvement, but every improvement is a change. You can't become more correct by arguing for something - at most, you make more other people agree. To improve your beliefs, you must change them."

                              There are probably plenty of places that TRP could be improved. I don't know where they are. But if/when someone finds one, I want to be able to recognise it and change my mind.

                              [–]Johnny10toes 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                              A book that a lot of us would do well to read is Prometheus Rising. in it he does a good job of pointing out how people use biases to form an opinion and reject any new information. Everyone has a reality and it would do you some good to try to understand the reality of someone else.

                              [–]thrown1520 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              TRP says a woman necessarily rejects a guy who treats her in a friendly manner, because he did treat her in a friendly manner. Nevertheless, TRP is not actually saying that all women hate themselves. TRP says that to a woman, being a friend is qualitatively different than being an intimate partner. TRP assesses feminism as the dominant ideology in western societies like the USA. Feminism has resulted in women having the final power of decision as to whether a relationship will come into being. Women prefer two types of men above all others: alpha and rich, because they are biologically built to prefer that. Since men judge women primarily on looks, the best-looking women are only interested in being with either alpha or rich. This all does not mean that women are the enemy. A lot of the talk on TRP is bravado that is building up a person's ego as they go to try to get their next lay or whatever.

                              Patriarchy definitely worked better than this shitty hypergamy system. Feminism is a joke that has made exactly zero people happy, men or women. Successful Red-Pillers who talk about having a multiple "plates" etc don't come off happy or content at all.

                              [–]Dr_HoaxArthurWilmoth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              I don't know if it is because it is summer, or if it is due to the huge influx of newcomers, but the last two months have been a down-vote party for any posts that question the validity of a thread.

                              This is something that might have to be posted every week for rest of summer, and possibly forever.

                              Skepticism is healthy. Hearsay is usually just that, hearsay. I can't count the number of, "My friend just got divorced and this happened..." threads that are just complete and utter bullshit.

                              Don't be a sheep, don't spread rumors and take your gossip and up-vote addiction to another thread, men are talking.

                              [–]ActuallyARaptor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              I always called it the 'Gold Effect'

                              [–]RidleySmith 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              Yeah I hear what you're saying.

                              For a long time I just refused to read anything remotely feminist and now I force myself to read an article I come across if it sounds like some blue pill bullshit. It usually is but after reading it I have the opportunity to challenge my views and see if they have a point, they almost never do, but it's a useful exercise.

                              [–]1nzgs[🍰] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              I think being a follower of a person rather than a way of life is never a good idea. The problem with RoK is that while there is a lot of good content on there, it's almost like a personality cult for Roosh, and the guy is kinda weird. He embarrassed himself on that tv show also.

                              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              TL;DR: RoK and blogs in general are not places where the host welcomes ideas contrary to their own. If you disagree strart your own blog.

                              I have been in the blog business for over a decade, and I disagree with you.

                              Imagine you're in your parents' living room, talking about the upcoming Thanksgiving dinner, logistics, time, who's bringing the apple pie and who's bringing the pumpkin pie; size of the turkey, beverages . . . the works. All in a sudden the door opens wide and a self-professed vegan-health nuts comes is and starts telling you about the benefits of substituting your turkey with TofuTurkey, the dangers of salt and sugar, calories counts, and animal cruelty.

                              The proper answer would be: "Who invited you?"

                              RoK is a blog, he has a message and a philosophy that he is promoting, and welcomes a friendly conversation; but it's his living room, therefore his rules. As a guest if you are steering the conversation in a direction that is not welcome by the host, do not be surprised if you are considered "persona non grata".

                              The same for this sub that is steered by both the moderators and the majority of users. Once I was temporarily banned for 30 days and I accepted such decision gracefully even though I didn't fully agree (the issue was "quality of post").

                              You do have the right of Freedom os Speech, and you can express so by running your own blog and/or your own sub; reference the posts that you disagree with, and even make fun of them is you're into parody.

                              But "intruding" into someone else territory pushing your controversial agenda, uninvited, and expected to have the red carpet rolled in front of you when you were not explicitly invited to do so is not polite at best, and arrogant at worst.

                              Running a blog or a forum takes time, effort and often money; that's the reason behind the 1-9-90 rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule_(Internet_culture) , it's a lot easier to parachute with an easy comment that it is to lead a conversation.

                              So you got banned? It's OK. Do you have your own message to spread that you believe takes TRP message to higher levels? Great! Start your own blog and since you are at it, start your own sub too. I for one will be the first one to congratulate you in taking matters into your own hands, and I will follow and read your writings for a while, then decide whether it's for me or no. If asked for feedback I might even give it to you.

                              By posting in here by default you accept "feedbacK" by way of our comments, you must accept that, and you do whatever you want with it. At the same time if the mods decide that this comment of mine is not worthy and delete it and ban me temporarily, I will accept that too. And downvotes are also something that I am consciously exposing myself to. It's all part of the way this sub works.

                              [–]razorwan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              I see a lot of people here who put down people who do put a moral value on sex. I was raised to be modest in all walks of life, including sex. If I'm to hold women to a standard to being chaste, then I won't be a hypocrite about it. If you want to pursue women and be a manwhore, that's your prerogative, but don't disqualify a guy as being RP if he doesn't pursue pussy like a commodity. I am waiting for marriage, and I'll do my best to make sure I don't wed a slut who's been on the CC.

                              [–]I_is_the_best 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              I'd say that TRP is like scientific method applied to social interactions, SMP and life in general. At its core it's about being a critical thinker.

                              Your post is like saying so all scientists think that gravity exists - fuck that shit - it's an echo chamber!!

                              [–]Elim101 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              Care to provide examples of that happening here? Mods banning people for disagreement, perhaps? Or is this just an abstract, borderline-concern trolling post?

                              [–]hebola4lyfe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              the infiltration in this sub is quite obvious by now ; this thread is a great example .

                              [–]1favours_of_the_moon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              RoK can be like a "Bonzai Kitten" parody site. I like it though. LOL

                              [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              This is as big a problem as it was (if not worse than) before the civil war.

                              Basically people today can go through months without being exposed to an unbiased (relatively) point of view.

                              You turn on your cable news in the morning, drive to work with your talk radio, and come home and watch your slanted news again, then browse your slanted websites.

                              There is no more Cronkite or Murrow to give it to you straight.

                              There used to be a law saying you couldn't lie and call it news. That was repealed in the 80s I think.

                              If the average American was a critical thinking even minded individual this sort of propaganda self brainwashing stuff wouldn't work, but most Americans have an 8th grade reading level and think dinosaurs and people cohabited the Earth simultaneously.

                              [–]neptronix 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              I've seen return of 'kings' acting more like little princesses and called them out on that behavior more than once. That earned me a ban.

                              RoK seems more like the male version of radical feminists. They act like it.. they bitch like it.. they blow shit out of proportion.. then they can't take the heat when you point it out. I don't respect them and i think they do a great job making the rest of us who aren't assholes look awful.

                              Fuck 'em.

                              [–]Redpillc0re 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              I have to say , this has become the most disappointing thread i ve read here in a long time. Almost 80% of the comments are about how swjs and feminists are not wrong and nawalt. Well good for you kids, here's to hoping that one day, maybe it might work for you, but don't hold ur breath, swjs are not your friend. I am marking the 120000 users as the limit when the main message of TRP has been watered down so much it's no different than the rest of reddit.

                              I get it that skepticism should be the default mindset, but people here are too easily swayed to be able to be skeptics.

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