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MetaRed Pill Social Acumen: When Interacting With People, Avoid The Urge To Think About Yourself (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by tits_out_forTheBoys

"Most people are locked in their own worlds, making them stubborn and hard to persuade. The way to lure them out of their shell and set up your seduction is to enter their spirit. Play by their rules, enjoy what they enjoy, adapt yourself to their moods. In doing so you will stroke their deep-rooted narcissism and lower their defenses. Hypnotized by the mirror image you present, they will open up, becoming vulnerable to your subtle influence. Soon you can shift the dynamic: once you have entered their spirit you can make them enter yours, at a point when it is too late to turn back. Indulge your targets' every mood and whim, giving them nothing to react against or resist."

― Robert Greene, The Art of Seduction


To Be Selfish, Or Not To Be Selfish?

When it comes to the topic of narcissism (selfishness, self-love, grandiosity) the vast majority of people take a black & white stance on the subject. Most people believe that being selfish is either "good" or "bad."

Both standpoints are wrong. The "selfishness is bad" crowd likes to vocalize an air of moral superiority as a means of gaining positive attention. But as we all know, absolute selflessness leaves us defenseless to the manipulations and deceits of other people. We've been made aware of that cold reality, but many of us have made the mistake of jumping to the extreme opposite end of the spectrum ― that we must think only of ourselves at all times.

And while that may be true from a strategic standpoint, from a tactical standpoint it's a recipe for failure. Just as with any aspect of human nature, selfishness is only as good as the effect it produces.

Executing A Selfish Strategy Requires Selfless Tactics

A true Machiavellian is proactive in his planning, and adaptive in his execution.

We spend most of our lives in solitude. This is the perfect time to be selfish. Think over your goals. What is the best way to get what you want? The answer to that question has nothing to do with other people, and everything to do with what you want and how you will find a way to take it. What does the world have to offer you? What, or who can you use to get what you desire?

However, when interacting with others, self-obsession is the ultimate way to draw people away from you. Not only that, but our brains are simply not wired to plan and act simultaneously. Why? It all comes down to selflessness. Try to think of it like lifting: When you're on the bench press testing the limits of your strength, is there any proactive, inward thought going through your head during that set? Fuck no, you know you need to be entirely focused outward on what's in front of you so that you can adapt to any changes in circumstance. This is the selfless mindset I'm referring to; it's an intense focus on your immediate surroundings during which you're in an adaptive state.

Now try to think about how that mindset applies at a crowded bar or a party. If you trust your instincts in the gym, you should easily be able to trust your instincts at a party. Anyone thinking "Should I approach this girl?" has already failed the test. Your body is literally wired to know which types of people it wants to be around, so instead of focusing inward on you and your interests ― focus outward on other people and their interests.

That's the best way to describe the tactical mindset for seduction. When you're out getting drunk and just talking to people, you need to be genuinely interested in them. Don't talk about yourself. Don't talk to people just for the sake of talking to them. Do what you want, without thinking about what you want to do. It's the ultimate feeling of euphoria.

When you see a hot chick at the bar and you let out one of those natural, under-your-breath "holy fuck I wanna bang you" type of comments. Don't think about anything. Just let the animal within you do what it wants to do. Keep your eyes locked on your prey and keep your mind focused outward. How will you know if there's an opening to talk to her or not? The animal within you knows, you don't need to baby him. Trust your instincts, and I repeat: it's the same type of mindset as lifting heavy weight.

The more important aspect of social acumen is actually talking to people. But you must selflessly be focused outward on them if you want to be socially adept, and thus attractive to girls. Thinking about "where this conversation is going, why she would say that, how am I gonna isolate her from these people" is inward thinking that will draw people away from you. That type of thought will either make you come off as awkward or an asshole. Is it no coincidence that people who drone on about themselves are the worst conversationalists? They make the interaction incredibly awkward for you because they don't give a fuck about what you're interested in, they only care about their own little world that they're never able to detach from.

Try to picture a typical Chad Thundercock out at the bar. What's he doing? Is he standing around with his friends in silence, too fucking selfish to say anything because all he can worry about is what people think about him? Or is he chatting everyone up and having a blast because he's genuinely interested in other people? A lot of people dumb it down to "well he's just confident." But in reality all he's doing is being selfless, focusing outward on other people and obeying the instincts of his body.

That's not confidence; it's basic social acumen that comes off as confidence and self-assuredness in the eyes of other people.

tl;dr Focusing our minds outward on other people is the core basis of seduction/social acumen. Trust your instincts, because your body already knows how to adapt to any given situation. Do not conflate the inward selfishness of strategy with the outward selflessness of tactics; the two mindsets are distinctly different.


“You can make more friends in two months by becoming genuinely interested in other people, than you can in two years by trying to get other people interested in you.”

― Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People


[–]monobrauw 29 points30 points  (4 children)

Solid post. Appreciated. This "inwardness" is something I've been noticing more and more lately. I've always been on the introvert side of the spectrum, and find myself judging and analyzing what people are saying to me right on that moment, which result in awkward or boring conversations. Also, I've always sucked remembering names, I literally forget it half a minute after meeting someone, which I attribute to my constant inward-self-dialogue I keep. This past few weeks I've put extra attention to this issue and tried to fight it back (but still on a conscious, selfish, strategic way, I guess), your post has made me realize I've neglected my animal body for a while and I need to work on that. Thanks.

[–]thedukeofawesome 8 points8 points [recovered]

I had this problem forever and now I use pneumonic reminders with nicknames- Just this week I met- Laura bonnet, Julia gulia, Dirty stache Roberto, Tall Corey, Misty mountain, and Angie the lesbian.

When I see them I remember the body cue like their height or mole or whatever and the phrase pops in. Just be careful not to call them by the whole name you've given them. For some reason it works really well for me.

[–]monobrauw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting, definitely will try.
Also, pneumonic mnemonic

[–]Stythe 76 points77 points  (26 children)

Golden. One of the best things I picked up from doing sales was to ask questions and let others do the majority of the talking. This allows them to fill in the blanks with their thoughts (which you can use to read them and the situation) and mirror them accordingly. Basically it's what allows you to be in control. The less you work to influence the moment overtly, the more influence you can conduct behind the scenes.

If you do this while maintaining a positive frame and open/ strong body language, you're set.

[–]tits_out_forTheBoys[S] 20 points21 points  (8 children)

ask questions and let others do the majority of the talking. This allows them to fill in the blanks with their thoughts (which you can use to read them and the situation) and mirror them accordingly. Basically it's what allows you to be in control. The less you work to influence the moment overtly, the more influence you can conduct behind the scenes.

This is damn good advice. Comment saved, thanks boss.

[–]whitepois0n 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Like someone farther down said. How can you be focused on them and their interests and not turn into an emotional tampon? What do I do to avoid becoming a Mirror without any definitive Characteristics? Or is a mirror all we we should be?

[–]tits_out_forTheBoys[S] 4 points5 points  (5 children)

What you're looking to do is allow the people that you're interested in to be vulnerable with you. It's a sign you've seduced them.

You can't fake interest. It needs to be real.

[–]whitepois0n 1 point2 points  (4 children)

When you are having your full blown conversation are you doing statements instead of questions to avoid Interview mode? And when is it appropriate to talk about your self if ever? Thanks for the other response.

[–]tits_out_forTheBoys[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

When you are having your full blown conversation are you doing statements instead of questions to avoid Interview mode?

Yes

And when is it appropriate to talk about your self if ever?

  1. When asked

  2. When a past experience furthers the topic of dicussion

[–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (1 child)

When a past experience furthers the topic of dicussion

Great response -- highlights a cornerstone of socialization: storytelling.

Don't talk about yourself when all you've got is relatedness to the topic of discussion e.g. the topic is on business owners so you go IM A BUSINESS OWNER GUYS. Its the same shit mom's do all the time that grates on people "As a mother..." nobody fucking cares.

Back to the point: tell a story relevant to the topic of discussion that you play a part in. Doesn't seem like you're talking about yourself, its entertaining, and it shows you do cool shit so its a DHV.

It's amazing how much you just conveyed to the astute listener in just 2 bullet points... Excellent, excellent post my man. Love reading your stuff.

[–]-Quotidian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

furthers the topic of discussion

As was stated in one particular scene of Glengarry Glen Ross, there is only one thing that's sacred: getting a signature on the dotted line.

Put another way; results and consequences are infinitely superior to ethics and intentions. We occasionally refer to Robert Greene's 48 Laws of Power, and Machiavellianism is one of the three corners of the Dark Triad. If you can minimize the negative consequences, you are only bound by the ethics you accept.

Actions matter. What is quantifiable matters. What you do, are seen doing, and are thought to be doing matter--because all of those things affect the world or other people, whose actions are then influenced by you. The end does not always justify the means, but never lose sight of the end; and know that some means--while distasteful--are easily justifiable.

[–]Stythe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem. Hope it's useful to ya.

[–]rush72189 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Sales... gotta love sales. A lot of people don't realize how much good trp information can be learned through learning sales.

[–]gg_s 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Of course. Sales is most effective on people who don't know what they want. As we know, women fall squarely in that category.

[–]axis77x 9 points10 points  (7 children)

Because of you, I will now be forever suspicious of sales people who are good at "not trying[too hard/too obvious] to sell me something" in order to sell me something.

[–]omnomdrugs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Those are called "good salesmen"

[–]obama_lurves_nsa 2 points3 points  (3 children)

hahaha very good point. this is why i avoid sales people at all costs. just focus on product reviews and legit real life people. that whole 'salesman' frame of mind is something i will always be disgusted by (if i detect it)

[–]redreckbestia -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Why? The salesman isn't going to sell you something that you don't want. At least, an ethical salesman won't.

[–]gg_s 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A salesman's job is to convince you otherwise.

[–]obama_lurves_nsa -1 points0 points  (0 children)

'ethical' salesman. think about that though. it's his job to make sales, not be ethical.

[–]Stythe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You won't if they're good at their job.

[–]mightysultan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You should. I worked at sales and the best ones were those who didn't push anything at all, they always had the biggest bonus by the end of the day.

Be afraid of the weasel, not the bear, for the bear is always on your radar.

[–]TominatorXX 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So true. I had a job where I was a bit of a fish out of water -- I was one kind of professional working with a different kind of professionals. I used to ask a lot of questions and even some of the "dumb" kind of Columbo questions. They thought it was pure genius.

[–]RocketManV 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Yo, quick question. I'm all about this, letting them talk. I went on a date today, and she was asking me questions left and right. It felt weird doing as much talking as I did, and if I threw too many back her way it felt like a back and forth interview.

I ain't gonna lose sleep over it, but what would you read out of that?

[–]Stythe 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't really have answers for this because it depends on the context and the questions. Usually the person asking questions is the one controlling the frame as they're getting information from the other person. Likely she was trying to sum you up. I can't really say though. She could have really been into you too. It's also possible she just doesn't have great social skills. Again, it's hard to anwer without being in the situation.

[–]RocketManV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd say it was a mix of all of those, it was a brunch date and I think I learned that was a little too early for me. Practice makes perfect.

[–]mightysultan 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It was good because she was taking initiative of the conversation. Don't care about the content, care about if she is reacting (answers what you say and that's that) or initiating (bringing new stuff to the converstation).

Keep in mind that "pure reactors" may act that way out of extreme shyness and not out of lack of interest.

[–]RocketManV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

She seems shy, so that may be true.

[–]mightysultan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Golden. One of the best things I picked up from doing sales was to ask questions and let others do the majority of the talking

Absolutely. Like legendary coach Red Auerbach said: "Be instigators, not retaliators".

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 24 points25 points  (2 children)

Good stuff. Inward focus can also fuel insecurity and awkwardness.

When you say reactive, I think you mean adaptive. The reactive guy is very response dependent, he becomes the dancing monkey trying to get positive feedback. The adaptive guy is the bird of prey in flight, manoeuvring for tactical advantage.

Edit: read both books OP mentioned. Eye-opening for the self-focused.

[–]tits_out_forTheBoys[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Adaptive is the word I was going for. Thanks man I'm gonna edit that in.

[–]laere 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is there a good way to get into an actual mindset of genuinely wanting to get to know people? I think that's one of the troubling things I can have. Sometimes I just don't care for people, other times it's cool to get to know someone and their reality.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (1 child)

This post is a tour de force. Fantastically accessible writing and a very clear and logical thought process.

When I'm interacting with people, it's often as if I forget I even exist.

When I adopt the mindset you're describing here (which is something I think of as "entering Mirror Mode,") I find that my mind goes pleasantly blank as I completely forget about anything besides the person I'm interacting with. It's like "Conversational Meditation" (if that exists)

In the Robert Greene quote you included, I believe the key word is "HYPNOTIZED." On some level, every conversation is a shared hypnotic trance. When you enter into Mirror Mode and start reacting to the other person, a few things happen:

  • you give them nothing to react to. YOURE the one reacting to them. When you behave this way, people instantly feel calm and relaxed because they know you're not trying to fuck them over or sell them anything. (And often, they suddenly begin to wonder if maybe they should be selling you something.)

  • You give them an opportunity to expand their sphere of influence. Most of the people you encounter will be attempting to expand their OWN sphere of influence — not offering you an opportunity to expand your own. To enter Mirror Mode is to give your conversational partner that opportunity.

TL;DR: Selfish Selflessness is effective, and so is Proactive Reactivity

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 3 points4 points  (0 children)

hypnotized

I've also heard it referred to as "attunement." You get on their wavelength and first move to their rhythms. Rapid rapport and trust ensues, and you can now lead them. They relax into your hands because they believe you "get" them.

[–]brunomarini13 78 points79 points  (4 children)

Thanks OP, as a introvert myself, is very easy to get sucked inside my mind when in social situations.

[–]icallmyselfmonster 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It doesn't have much to do with introversion. For example wage negotiations in work. It's recommended that you don't compare yourself to other people. Then how are you going to show you are the best person for the job.

Tactics, strategies, development plans, targets, market, environment. Have direction.

[–]slavetothought 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Ahh the introvert vs extrovert labels are pigeonholing bullshit.

[–]forgotmypa55word 14 points15 points  (2 children)

If this post could be summarized in 1 word it would be: LISTEN

So here are 5 tips to be an amazing listener:

1 eye contact -- it's amazing how often people forget this

2 react to what they say: nod, laugh, etc. -- people would rather be considered funny than laugh at someone else's joke

3 validate and demonstrate interest in them -- one of the greatest human drives is the need to feel important. "That's interesting" or "that's cool" can suffice.

4 ask stimulating questions -- you could know NOTHING about 16th century art in the lameass era of godknowswhere. BUT you can certainly come up with questions to ask someone who is INFATUATED with it. Personally I could ask: "so who were leading the way in art during that era?" "what made them so good?" "how does their art compare to today?" This isn't rocket science!

5 KEEP IT ABOUT THEM -- this is the hardest part, every time you feel the urge the share something about yourself, ask: "is this self indulgence or will they want to listen to this?"

[–]ProductivityMonster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

*4. I find often these people who only want to talk about something that only they and their friends know something about are not so subtly indicating that they don't want to talk to anyone who's not familiar with the subject. People who are passionate about an obscure subject become exclusionary in a group of other people passionate about the same thing. There's only so many general questions you can ask before they get bored of explaining basic concepts to you and want to go into nerd land.

*5. Sometimes the easiest way to relate to their experiences is to describe a similar experience of your own. However, if you find yourself doing this a lot, you both don't want to talk to each other and merely want to stroke your own egos.

[–]AsylumHarbour 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You have to take care of your own needs so that you CAN focus on that other person.

I have found that when I do this, I get out of my own way, eliminating self-consciousness. I don’t worry about myself, I am able to follow my gut instincts and am just in the flow of the present. Good things seem to happen.

How to do this? No one can do that but you. No one owes you shit.

You have to have processes in place that allow you to nurture yourself so you can fill your own cup.

I have found this analogy to the chariot rider whipping your horse in the right direction a great help for eliminating neediness (via RSDTYler): https://youtu.be/tUNQ4Jfpj7o?t=20m

Here’s the conclusion that summarizes it all: https://youtu.be/tUNQ4Jfpj7o?t=26m40s

Eliminating neediness. Design your life to nurture yourself and fill your own cup (RSDTyler): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqoOMlcqYQw

Edit: Grammar and sentence structure.

[–]a_chill_bro 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Let's get this post into the sidebar. Hands down one of the top 10 posts I've ever seen on TRP.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Solid fucking post. Social skills can be learned and improved just like anything else.

[–]BlackFallout 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thank you for this post. It opened my eyes a little more on this journey.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (11 children)

What about "check your posture, take as much space as possible, be vocal" that TRP teaches us, isn't all that inward thinking?

[–]TheWilsonatorr 13 points14 points  (2 children)

it is but you don't want to be thinking about it in the moment. Otherwise it will come off as unnatural and therefore unattractive.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Exactly. There's training time, where you practice doing things that can be awkward as fuck at first. There's debriefing time where you analyze what the fuck happened. Then there's time in the arena, where you have to just live in the moment and have fun with it.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

[–]Banchamekk 4 points5 points  (0 children)

these things have to be practices until you do them automatically without thinking.

[–]RaginCajunProdKrewe 4 points5 points  (0 children)

When you go to the golf course you don't walk up to the tee and think specifics like "full body movement, keep the left arm straight, pace it evenly, etc..." 'cause if you're thinking about all this stuff you'll be too scatterbrained to actually do a good swing.

You think about that stuff at the driving range, where you can just hit ball after ball and think about those things w/o pressure. You do it a bunch of times until it gets natural, I.E. 'til you don't have to think about it. Let me give a concrete example: my backswing was flat, and it needed to be more vertical. At the range I'd consciously think about that while hitting balls, and after a little bit this got more natural, and it became part of my swing without having to think about it.

When I go to actually play a round, I don't analyze or think about the mechanics at all. I just do what's natural, to say it more properly I do what I have made natural for me to do. It's like I'm on autopilot; the time at the range and on the practice green is me programming the autopilot to be better.

There isn't formally a 'social practice range,' but if you think of the lounge or bar or wherever as 'the game' you can think of everywhere else as 'the practice range.' Practice your posture or vocality or whatever all the time: with the delivery guy, with the girl at the doughnut store, with people on the 'phone, always.

Eventually you will realize that everything, all the time is BOTH the practice field AND the playing field: that's why we call it 'the game,' because we're all always playing. As in my analogy, I also get better at golf when I play, not just when I practice. People want to get surprised swept off their feet all the time (especially chicks), and a 'failed' seduction needs to be something you see as a lesson, not as a failure, much like losing a game to a stronger opponent is a learning experience. Move on and kick ass next time.

[–]SexyDeviI 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Honestly, I can't agree with the OP that "self obsession" is the ultimate way to draw people away from you. It is if you've got no charm, charisma, and/or great life events you can talk about.

I've noticed that most of my peers want me to take over the conversation as they love feeling excitement and living my adventures through my words. They are usually average people (excluding my inner circle, this doesn't relate to my closest allies) work 9 - 5 jobs, go to boring colleges to get useless degrees, have a long term relationships without sex and no ideas, goals, purpose and desire to thrive in this life.

I've got no problems listening, in case that my correspondent is able to offer me some value (amusement, lesson, wisdom, thrill) but considering that they can't even offer those values to themselves, I find it we have a much better time if I act totally self indulgent and just talk about myself, my ideas and recent adventures. They always seem to light up.

So, I'd suggest that you think inwardly and narcissistically focus on yourself - while putting your Ego to the side and leaving the room open for one to dominate the conversation in case he is better than you.

If my goal was to get a great body, and I meet a jacked, shredded, 200 lbs motherfucker, while I'm 160 lbs just beginning with my training, you're sure as hell I won't "focus inwardly" but shut up and politely bombard him with questions because he has what I don't but want to have, and you have to learn from people like that.

Regarding the posture, deep voice and similar, I think it can never hurt and most usually provides great benefits. Carry yourself with pride at all times.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Get good at opening up others, not just the ones you think can offer/teach you something. Develop the ability to make people better by drawing them out, so they like themselves best when they're with you.

[–]SexyDeviI 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Eh, that's the same thing my closest friends have told me. Honestly I can't [won't] do it. I see no point. I also find 95% of people extremely boring and can't get myself to pay serious attention/invest in drawing them out, and honestly I don't care about or making them feel best when around me - usually when they start "drawing out" all I can think of is "Shut the fuck up you pathetic useless loser/stupid bitch". [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkoPq5AOCOA]

I really don't find anything interesting in most people and have really zero desire to connect with them/feel any empathy for them.

Not saying that it's good, but it works perfectly for me. If they don't provide value (can't offer/teach me something) I'll roll around and have another hour of sleep instead, hit the gym, make money, or read the books of those who can, instead of socializing with them.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedPillDad 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not sure why anyone would downvote you here, I appreciate a ruthless focus. It can make you strong competitor. The downside being, like Michael Jordan in his early years, a weaker team player.

Better to start of competitive and learn cooperation than the other way around.

[–]ConnorGracie 0 points1 point  (1 child)

All this is just boiling down to direct and indirect game.

Self interested = indirect Outwardly Interested = direct

[–]SexyDeviI 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Incorrect. I have the most "direct" game of anyone I know.

Self Interested = cut to the chase, "I'll grace you with access to my place." Outwardly Interested = "I'd like to get to know you. What's your favorite movie? Really?? Awesome. [5 minute of rapport building indirects tend to enjoy]".

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is something that has been a complete game changer for me when it comes to social situations. I now talk about the other person when interacting. Nevertheless, I have made friends that have offered me jobs whereas before I would be shunned because I was too selfish.

[–]rztzz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think this is a great post.

I'm worried that the girl that I'm seeing who I initially thought was long-term material just talks about herself way too much. She's golden in every other way. Just needs to focus on other people a little more.

[–]JohnnyGameGuy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Great post. It's a different angle on how I see it, but ultimately teaches the same principles.

In social situations, being needy is the worst mindset possible. When you're needy, you're trying to get people to like you and the shit you say is made in an attempt to get a reaction which comes off as painfully obvious. When you're needy, and talking to that girl, she will sense it. Instead, just make it your goal to have fun and give love to people.

Focusing outwards like you said, is another way of putting it. Don't be needy!

[–]BourneRedPill 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You have to train your ability to switch your mind and your current state into socializing when you need to. This may take time.

One thing that helped me is to lower the bar of how good every conversation has to be. I used to hate small talk. I wanted to talk about ideas not events. But, there is a time and a place and to start, you have to embrace and enjoy the small talk about nothing.

So train your mind to switch to socializing mode and enjoy mindless small talk about "nothing".

[–]epixs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is something I adapted after going out where I didn't know people. Within 30min-1hour, I knew enough to have conversations with any of the people at the party

I used this exact approach, except I was also really loud. I'd rather be known as the loud meathead doosh, then the "was that guy even at the party" person.

Women eat it up, no idea why

[–]epistemic_humility 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Perfect post, worthy of the sidebar for sure.

I'm nursing a gym injury for a few weeks, about to start building social strength with these things in mind.

I'm one that constantly judges and thinks about interactions while they happen rather than be in them. I can even feel the awkwardness it creates.

Amazing primer here on getting better.

My problem is that I start to feel uncomfortable if the conversation goes too long I get fidgety and start to tune out, break eye contact and check my phone. Pretty sure that's classic social anxiety but I'm motivated to put some of these tips to use tonight at my buddy's BBQ.

Thanks all, theredpill is 'reddit' for me.

[–]Fuzzyweeze 2 points3 points  (1 child)

When that happens, end the conversation at a peek by leaving it. And returning later it is still at its peak

[–]epistemic_humility 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So that's a sign to exit. Do other people feel that? Ahaha my social game is no Bueno.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This does make sense with my interaction with women.

Whenever any topic of discussion comes up. Women will tend to take it personally if the topic is about women generally. Women will hear "sometimes women lie about rape" and infer "they think I would lie about rape". Women will hear "women lie about paternity" and infer "they think I would lie about paternity". Women will hear "single mothers are disproportionately on food stamps" and infer "they think I am on food stamps because I am a single mother".

For men, this needs to be the opposite. The urge to think of oneself in a conversation is a very feminine one, don't think that way.

[–]FrameWalker 1 point2 points  (0 children)

When you're not listening and you're speaking remember that your voice is louder and deeper in your own head. Speak loudly every time you say something.

It takes energy for people to listen, and the more energy you out into your voice the less work they have to do to hear you. If you're loud enough they won't be able to look away or tune you out.

[–]RedPillscientist 1 point2 points  (1 child)

The solution to the whole don't become a tampon thing is: Be unpredictable (not drastically, or you'll look like a bipolar psycho). Be listening and attentive, then be cold and disinterested occasionally

Why does this work? 1.) labels - they aren't able to categorize you with any label in their mind because you don't fit any that they've put other people in. 2.) hot/cold, push/pull - self explanatory, talked about extensively before here

[–]RedPillscientist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Furthermore: I will add you should always base it off your mood. There's a surefire way of letting your conscience know you're not just acting like a jackass to fuck with people.

We've all had days when we want to talk to others, some days we're too busy or feel crabby, well fuck it, let that show. You'll feel more genuine with yourself and not feel like "everything is just a game"

[–]bnine_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Can i ask you for demo outward conversation starting with an opener? English is my second language and i'm not 100% sure what you mean.

Thanks

[–]1Snivellious 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's one example of this that I constantly notice in the real world.

A group of people will be on some topic, and a group member (let's call him Jim) will open his mouth to tell some story about it. He won't be the first one to speak, though, and by the time there's a quiet moment, the topic of conversation has completely changed.

All too often, Jim will just tell his story anyway. Sometimes he'll lead with "But like we were saying," and sometime he'll just start rambling with his off-topic bullshit. It's confusing, socially awkward, and doesn't advance a smooth group conversation.

The reason this happens is usually obvious - Jim spent the whole time thinking about his story, and won't feel satisfied until he tells it. He's addressing his desire with no regard for the group. He wanted to tell the story, and he's going to even though it's no longer the socially adroit thing to do.

If Jim's topic had real value, all this would be different, but usually it's just the stories-for-entertainment that helps people bond. Don't be Jim, say what's right to say, not what you've been thinking about.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Try to picture a typical Chad Thundercock out at the bar. What's he doing? Is he standing around with his friends in silence, too fucking selfish to say anything because all he can worry about is what people think about him? Or is he chatting everyone up and having a blast because he's genuinely interested in other people? A lot of people dumb it down to "well he's just confident." But in reality all he's doing is being selfless, focusing outward on other people and obeying the instincts of his body.

I contend that this is false. The Chad at the bar, in my mind, is a narcissistic asshole. He acts as much because he knows about how great he is. He's self absorbed because he's awesome and everyone else is comparatively boring. He's an asshole because he can afford to be honest and lose friends over it, he has endless friends. He's not genuinely interested in people. When he talks to girls, its because he wants to fuck them. When he talks to guys, its because he wants to determine if there's anything to learn or gain from interacting with that individual, or if he's someone he'd like to add to his social circle. At no point does genuine interest or care about other people (except for selfish reasons) enter the equation.

While I agree with the most of the post, I want to warn that this is exactly how the conversation at seddit got diluted. We tried defining alpha (chad) as something it wasn't.

[–]I_luv_twinks 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agreed -- I also had a big problem with the bar Chad hypothetical.

If you're that Chad, it doesn't fucking matter what you do or how you act -- by virtue of being attractive, you can act however you want and still get girls equal to or less than your SMV. You'll still yield positive results whether you're being stoic or gregarious.

If you're less attractive than Chad, it doesn't matter how much of a social butterfly you are, or how you manipulate the situation -- you're not going to out-Chad Chad.

The more I analyze this, the more it seems like this whole OP is mental masturbation. If you focus on bettering yourself, you become Chad, and all this contemplation about how you're acting goes out the window. If you're sitting there trying to figure out if you're talking too much or not enough, you're doing it wrong -- you should be doing whatever the fuck you please.

[–]Vikingdiapers 2 points2 points [recovered]

Something I took to heart years and years ago was a lesson that is rooted in this kind of thinking. It's what I call the Bruce Wayne method.

I learned to never ever show what I had. Never let them see. And this is part of that method. By being quiet, asking questions, just shutting up, you let them expose themselves. If you need leverage, stop talking. If you want to know who they are, stop talking. And another great way to give them the illusion of power or control is to do what Bruce Wayne does. Play dumb. Not all the time. It's a tactic and has it's place. But in those moments where you say might be losing them, they bring up a subject where you're an expert, ask them basic questions, let their misinformation ride. Just let go and let them do the work.

[–]ItIsMyPrivilege 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How to win friends talks about some of those ideas. It's a bit dated though.

It's good to learn to get people to talk about themselves

[–]Redasshole 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Deadly serious question for me : after taking the red pill, I began to be a lot more careful about the informations I give. Before, I would be a social butterfly, say what's on my mind and vibe with everyone. However, I would not take some time to step back, shut up and analyze other people's behavior like "is she trying to make me her beta buck?". I would not spend any time reflecting on other people's agenda and picking up cues which would give me informations about their agendas towards me. Now, I'm much more careful and detached from what's going on.

I think I was focusing on the external part of things because I had nothing built inside, so I was focusing only on the other people. Now i'm focusing on what I want, on "am I bored? does she annoys me? is this the kind of person I enjoy being with?" and I'm so busy trying to improve to be ibterested in other people except my close friends.

What do you think?

[–]scrantonic1ty 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've always had a problem with the "genuine interest" part of this advice. I'm not genuinely interested in other people, especially people my age (18-24). I walk into a bar/club for people my age (UK drinking age is 18) and all I see is a crowd of anonymous faces, very few of them worth spending time and effort to get to know when my friends are right here and I already know I like them and can have a good time with them.

I might have to waste hours talking to pointless people to find 1 person who I'm "genuinely interested" in.

[–]good_complexion 1 points1 points [recovered]

My most lucid moments were when I was interested in others, these days I struggle. Conversation can feel "forced", I just want people to get to the point, it's like there's no value there for me. It's such a hard mindset to break especially now that I'm older and it's baked in. I'm wondering if this is depressive symptoms?

[–]PlanB_pedofile 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You desire to tell your story, have someone listen to you, but everyone else is yapping about themselves. You want them to get to the point because you genuinely don't care about them. Your conducting business, not engaging their life story. It's worse when you have a goal in mind and all their yammering on is wasting your time.

Probably a bit narcissist. It's okay. This is why you read these articles and learn.

[–]ConnorGracie 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I certainly feel the connection from this strategy but I rarely get investment from the other side, feel taken for granted after awhile.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Isn't there some sort of balance though? If it's with a girl and she just rants about daddy issues and how much work sucks and youre just agreeing with her, are you not just being an emotional tampon? That's what I always find weird about the whole "let her do the talking"

[–]BastardPriest 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I think it's quite easy to direct the conversation in another way. You are the one listening, the one in control, so you can decide the direction in which the conversation should go. At least, that's what I picked from the OP's post.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I guess it depends on the girl, if she rides horses she either complains about her issues like a dad or something or talks about her horse. Everything else is genuinely irrelevant.

Is a good way of going about it is to let her talk but just be snarky about it and don't give in?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

2: I mean not agreeing with her, or just being sarcastic while making her talk more.

[–]2awalt_cupcake 0 points1 point  (4 children)

This seems like like a sure fire way of becoming everyone's emotional tampon.

[–]Trail_of_Jeers 2 points3 points  (2 children)

That is a concern. I spent a long time learning to become interested in others, and became the emotional tampon.

This is high level shit. If your frame isn't rock solid, this sort of work isn't healthy.

[–]ChickenBalotelli 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I think it has value, but only if you're being genuine. Why would you sit around and listen to some shit you didn't want to....(unless by doing so, there was something else to be gained)

[–]2awalt_cupcake -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Exactly. This post screams my old blue pill self. I became popular and well known but I wasn't known for being me. I felt like a shell of a person like everyone knew me but they didn't really know what I'm about. I've had more fun walking away from boring conversations and doing things with other interesting people. I did this exact thing at a party and still got a blowjob by the end of the night. I call bs on this post

[–]obama_lurves_nsa 0 points1 point  (0 children)

sometimes you have to come across cold and hard and disagree or call people out. you can't fake being interested in everything and pretend to be having fun. that comes off as even worse it seems to me.