Red Pill TheoryIce breaking (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by [deleted]


You walk up to a new person, maybe you're introduced, you shake hands, Hi! My name is metalaggeddon, what's yours? How are you doing?

Ensue awkward silence.

If you have this problem you need to understand icebreakers. Here's a quick experience based lesson.


Icebreakers, in my experience, are best orchestrated based on the following 3 rules.

Invoke likeability. (Practice an hour a day for a week).

Invoke action. (Practice an hour a day the following week)

Invoke emotions. (Practice an hour a day the final week)

In that order.

Likeability when breaking the ice beyond the introduction, you need to come across as likeable. Presuming you've already covered basic tenants, such as being comfortable in your own skin, setting boundaries, being physically fit and attractive, now you must work on appeal. How do you appeal to a random person? presuming no knowledge of their personal predilections?

Simple actually. You swap highlighting what you know for what you don't. Instead of reaching on topics you're informed in, ask what they enjoy their biggest highlight today. If you don't know anything about it, that's fine, ask questions! Most People love talking about themselves, it feeds the ego, women especially.

Ask them what they're doing in their life and take a stance as an interviewer doing a biography. You want the truth, but you want it to look and feel exciting. and by God you will amplify what they're saying to make it better sounding or dismiss it

tips for this stage -  ask them what the highlights of their day were. Good, bad, confusing, let them speak on it. Good tip, I say "speak on that" frequently. Very frequently. Works well, just maintain your curious poise and let them bury themselves, or, qualify themselves.

-  repeat their core perspectives to themselves. so you felt really excited! Why did that mean so much to you? What spurred this on? What will you do with it? Use open involved questions. -  stay active and present. missing what they've said is okay, ask them to repeat but always say it as a clarification, did you mean this? Wow that's a bit new to me, could you explain it differently?

invoke action

If you've already gotten down likeability, you're halfway to invoking action. One of the most important facets of breaking the ice is setting a dynamic that is dependable. Dominant vs submissive. Interrogator vs qualifier. You invoke action by using commands, usually formed in a way that begs deference to context. This is the area where you ask the small favor, borrowing a pencil or pen, checking the time, saving your seat, etc. Allow me to create an example.

incorrect Hey, buy me a drink, I'm going to use the bathroom.

correct You look like you could use a drink, how about you grab us something and I'll lock down a table?

incorrect Well this is how you fix the situation.

correct Of course you'd probably do x right? on affirmation yeah that's what I was thinking. on negation interesting I hadn't thought of it that way, what would you do?

Remember, every statement made should be a call to action. Simply open questions, such as do you have the time are worthless to break the ice. They must be accompanied by a command or proposition. propositions are about things, and necessarily include a judgement, a judgement necessitates involvement and a truth or falsity. In short, it forces people to choose a stance.


Now that you've gotten them speaking, qualifying themselves happily, sating their thirsty ego, you need to harbour that emotional connection. An appeal to emotion is a tricky thing. It must be an appeal to a seemingly moral judgement, which directly implies a stake. in either how the world should be or ought not to be. People, especially women, live heavily inside their emotional preferences, so making statements that appeal to morality are a quick easy way to have people break that last barrier to comfort with you personally. Take advantage of the information already garnered, you know what they consider a high or low point, it's almost guaranteed there's an emotional attachment to that.

Correct: that's quite unfair, getting skipped for the promotion isn't it? It always hurts a little knowing my effort goes unrewarded

-  notice you are not attacking the other party in this. It's much better than outright agreeing the person who was promoted is somehow in the wrong. That's up for the conversational partner to decide. Here's where you should also be heavily escalating comfort kino. Obviously not to finger banging, but touching cheek, shoulder, small of the back, brushing away their hair, locking eyes close up to drive a point, etc.

Incorrect: man that sucks. Bet the boss is an idiot amirite?

-  red flag! You do not place blame without knowing precisely what the emotional reaction of the conversational partner is towards their boss. A LOT of girls I've played absolutely love their "male" boss, and funnel anger towards their competitor for the raise.

Be a risk taker, but don't volunteer your head for the chopping block. THEN AGAIN, any emotional response is better than none, but you're not here looking for mediocrity are you?

lessons learned

  • ice breaking requires three connections IMO. Likeability, a call to action, and emotion.

  •  you should be using kino from start to finish, by the emotional segment you should be heavily escalating.

  •  even if you're shredded, 6'6, manly man, custom suits and hundos for days, failing ice breaking is a practice in self destruction.

  • be present in your interactions.

  • practice practice practice, BEFORE doing an fr or asking for help. As a always, we can't help those who don't try. And our help is limited in effectiveness to those who don't have solid data.

addendum Thank you to those who have signed up for the PDF. I'll be doing a weekly every Sunday morning based on what the previous comments have asked for. The upcoming post will be on ice making. The flip to introductions. How to bar a bridge without burning it.


I'm completely the fool for not mentioning that in the first place.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger 98 points99 points  (24 children)

Posts like this are great to think about. A lot of places where TRP readers fall short in the real world is holding a conversation without looking socially awkward or like a self-absorbed narcissist.

Every red piller should read up on the art of conversation. How to interact with people. The key to success at life - not just women, life - is making other people feel like they want what you want. To make other people want you to succeed.

[–]laere 23 points24 points  (10 children)

People LOVE talking about themselves. Ask a lot of questions + being genuinely interested (key) = being an amazing conversationalist/charismatic. That alone will take you a lot of places.

[–]zo34 8 points9 points  (5 children)

But, it is important to temper asking questions. On more than one occasion I've been asked why I'm asking so many questions. Are you a cop or something?

That's probably me being extremely direct in my questioning, so it is important to remember to temper questions with qualifying statements, sentiment, and commonalities. A good example is this line:

that's quite unfair, getting skipped for the promotion isn't it? It always hurts a little knowing my effort goes unrewarded

Sentiment immediately followed by commonality will help move the conversation along while building some implicit trust gee, he feels the same way I do!

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

add a little 3 second annecdote.

Hey, I had a friend who did X, he told me Y. Thats not true is it?

Flows more naturally, gives the impression that you're also contributing, and it's not just value leeching (or humouring someones interests)

[–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

yes!! even something as dumb as "wow I've never heard of that before, [ask next question]" instead of jumping into the question. Or logical/silly/funny extrapolation (agree and amplify their answer, then resolve into a question if you want to keep going)

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yea if anyone calls you out on asking too many questions, its most likely because you are not sharing anything about yourself (possibly as a symptom of not allowing yourself to be vulnerable).

When you are asking a lot of questions, you are forcing the other person to invest and making them vulnerable in the process. When you do not reciprocate you come off as cold and value sucking.

Get them to invest by calling them out on questions you know they may or may not care about. I got this from Juggler (he is the best at forming connections with anyone), but The next time a girls asks you where you're from or how you're day was. Ask

-"Do you really care or are you just making conversation?" If she responds with "No I don't" - you reciprocate with "Thanks for your honesty I really appreciate it...Let's talk about something we both really care about" -If "yes" Then she will be more invested and she atleast has to make a sincere effort of caring about what you say next.

[–]zo34 0 points1 point  (0 children)

its most likely because you are not sharing anything about yourself

That's really good insight, actually. I think this is often my downfall, though at this point I may be swinging a little to hard in the other direction (too much me, not enough them).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, temper it with similarities you share. If you like the same things, tell the other person. Also, tell tidbits here and there about yourself so as to come across as forthcoming.

[–]Longest_username 1 points1 points [recovered]

From my experience, use questions sparingly and try to use statements more often.

Instead of where are you from?


You're from x.

Not only does the person answer the question, but they're intrigued as to why you think they're from x.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd think that's more tonal.

you're from x.

Is different from,

you're from x?

Is vastly different from

where are you from?

Statements (grammatically) can be questions (contextually and tonally).

I agree though, better to form a question as an investigative statement.

Then again I may be overtly conscious of this since I absolutely adore the philosophy of language. (Non verbal or grammatical)

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I always liked just getting them to talk about themselves, unless the person is a social awkward, everyone loves the chance ot run their mouth. If it's actually interesting, even easier.

Ask a very broad question about your venue. pick up anything that they talk about that isn't about it (their natural interest) and just say "I heard X about that, is that true?" Always a small tidbit of "I know X" so it doesn't flow like an interview, but allow them as much time as possible to talk about what they want.

Then sit back and learn something new. the more genuine you can take interest in it, the better it works.

Once I read carnagies book, was surprising how much more refined you can make it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Now the key question, what are the best sources for reading up on the art of conversation?

[–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How to Win Friends and Influence People is the time tested text on this. I also like "What Every Body is Saying" in order to pick up on the other 70% of nonverbal signals you are sending and they are sending given that most productive conversations are in person.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The only thing you really need to learn to become more charismatic and sociable is learning how to be interested in other people. Pretending to care doesn't cut it. If you want to form fast and relatively strong bonds with people you meet, you really have to give a shit about what they have to say.

How to Win Friends and Influence People has a lot of great information as well, but you could boil it down to "be genuinely interested in other people".

[–]Boovs4life 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Are there books that teach on the art of conversation?

[–]throwawaysarenotok 2 points3 points  (4 children)

How to win friends and influence people - Dale Carnegie

[–]throwaway-aa2 1 point2 points  (3 children)

you know the problem though? I know a ton of betas who like that book. Now before you jump to conclusions... I'm not drawing causation, merely stating correlation. I can go to amazon and find some conversational guides but the barometer is if they line up with RP theory.

[–]throwawaysarenotok 1 point2 points  (2 children)

This advice in this book needs to be put in context. It is about people pleasing, and being beta to an extent. However you should think about it as a skillset you are gaining, learning how to make certain people like you can be an advantage in certain contexts. There are probably certain situations where you wouldn't want to apply the advice in the book because it can make you appear weak or lose power.

[–]throwaway-aa2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

true. I know what you're saying when you say that you learn skills for a purpose that may not inherently be redpill but the result makes it redpill.

That being said... sometimes you gotta worry that if the route they suggest is truly the correct path... like if I red a book this subreddit suggested and the book said something to the tune of "make sure to always compliment women" or some dumb shit. There's always a larger picture in books, especially ones this subreddit suggests but sometimes when you come in to these topics as a beginner, it's hard to differentiate between what should be followed and what shouldn't be.

[–]throwawaysarenotok 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When you read a book, you have to be able to absorb what you believe is useful and discard that which is not.

In my opinion, the 100% of the content in most books will never useful to you. There will always be something you don't vibe with. However, there will be little bits of gold amongst the garbage and that alone could make them worth reading. The trick is to not let the bullshit alter your mindset. To do that you have to be firm in your beliefs and have a solid foundation.

Don't be afraid to explore literature, even if it puts your frame at risk. Some books will be more useful than others, it's like a continuum. A book can be 1% useful to you and 99% garbage, or 1% garbage and 99% useful, and everywhere in between. But you can't be afraid to explore. I feel the majority of books have at least something to offer, even if it's small.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

are you talking about some book "art of conversation" or not?

[–]throwaway-aa2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It'd be awesome if there were specific resources that people recommended trying out. There are a lot of conversation guides but some of them are beta, e.g "Ask the person how they're day is going, and be as nice as possible!"

[–]BingeInternet[🍰] 20 points21 points  (5 children)

Need more icebreaker posts, this is the hardest part for me but the rest is almost natural

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Literally just say whatever is on your mind. Sometimes, the easiest way is to just ask a question, no matter how innocuous or irrelevant it may seem. Once you get them talking, they will ramble on and on.

[–]rpscrote 2 points3 points  (1 child)

one of the ECs here once described it as "letting others in on your internal monologue" which is an incredibly elegant explanation of how it works for me at least.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly. Just say something. Even if it's stupid, you can just laugh it off.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ask for it.

What comes easy to some can be monumental for others.

People are willing to share their experiences... Guys just need a nudge sometimes

[–]1Snivellious 17 points18 points  (4 children)

This is all strong advice, but I especially love your example about "get us drinks and I'll get us a table". Deference to context is a huge idea.

There's an idea that negotiating is basically about building narratives - if you're haggling with someone, you each bring a story ("This is shoddy and cheap", "My kids need to eat") and use those narratives to arrive at a conclusion, rather than simple greedy negotiation. If you can offer a framework that the other person can't reject or escape, you end up shaping the conversation.

This is a potent example of bringing someone into your narrative. They just got you a drink at your request, but it wasn't based on pressure. Your real-world context was irrefutable (we want both a drink and a table, and there wasn't a socially acceptable reason for them to say "you do drinks, I'll do the table), so your chosen narrative won out.

The actual action is common sense (lets split up tasks) but the mental impact is that you were in charge and coordinated the task. Offering people situations where context says they should follow your lead and talk to you is a great way to have a good interaction without directly challenging them to oppose you.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

never thought of haggling that way, but it's totally how it flows.

[–]1Snivellious 3 points4 points  (2 children)

It's a pretty cool observation once you start seeing it at work. Total credit to the RibbonFarm guy (author of the powertalk stuff) for this article inspiring me on it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Mr. RAO. I've tried a few times to get through TEMPO, and his thoughts on narrative based decision making.

I like his stuff, it's just a little more clinical than I'm used to. Giving it another try

[–]1Snivellious 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I totally recommend it. I'm sometimes frustrated by his writing style - the mix of pop culture, weird analogies, and clinical, thesaurus-laden word choices can make it really hard to get through on occasion.

That said, I don't think he's consciously being difficult, and things like the Gervais Principle and his haggling guide have some really valuable observations. There's a lot of variation in how clinical he is, so maybe swap pieces if one is dragging on too much for you.

I do sometimes have the same problem with him that I do with The Last Psychiatrist though: I'll get through a piece, think "that was really insightful!", and then be unable to give you its core observations 24 hours later. When he goes off into Jungian types and the shadow self I'm interested, but it's really hard to get from there to any kind of intelligible observation.

[–]peeweekid 13 points14 points  (4 children)

I feel like the issue for me isn't opening women up, it's opening them up way too much and then they start telling me shit about them I don't need to know/care to know and it turns me into a person to bitch about their life to.

[–]throwaway-aa2 3 points4 points  (0 children)

smile "wow I didn't need to know all that"

See the approach is my biggest issue. Once I'm in the interaction, it's easy.

[–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You got the pull, then you need the push.

Agree and Amplify something that would be insulting if you said it with a straight and serious face, but say it with a laughing and positive vibe instead.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can turn this into a good thing. Most likely you are coming off as someone to vent to but you aren't actually forming a genuine connection with the girl because most people are not willing to put their-selves out on the line and get hurt. Get them to talk about what their desires in life, in other people. You may not fit the bill on that but that's ok and if you do fit it and you disqualify yourself she will come to trust you more.

Talk about them and what makes them unique, because you can figure out if you like them based on their unique qualities. But just a girl venting about bullshit is not what makes her unique and trying to appreciate her throwing up her anxieties will come off as disingenuous because it is.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorFieldLine 8 points9 points  (5 children)

While I'm generally successful in a social setting, a major issue that I have, at least in my mind, is that my conversations are rehearsed. I can absolutely rock job interviews and usually manage to elicit some kind of positive response from strangers I interact with. But it's fake - I'm a fake. I'm not actually that witty or creative. When a girl I meet in the library tells me she's a psych major, I turn to my go-to response about it being great that she wants to be a shrink, now I can tell her all my problems, she laughs and thinks I'm a funny guy. When I go back for a refill and tell the girl making my coffee at Starbucks that no, I didn't actually want more coffee, I wanted an excuse to come talk to her again, she smiles and thinks I'm smooth. When I tell the male bank teller that my day is going well but it would be going much better if he was a young, pretty lady, he laughs and thinks I'm a good conversationalist.

But I'm a fraud. I have lots of good responses to most social situations because people are predictable - it's easy to steer the conversation in the direction I want, and then I can use the appropriate line I have archived. And I continue to do this because it works - people like me, and I usually get what I want. But I don't like myself. I'm boring. It's like watching the same comedy act again and again.

It's not an issue with confidence or a lack in ability to connect with people, so what do you you suggest I do to get out of this habit? Or is this just the way of the game? All of you who are super successful in social situations, are you actually that good on your feet? Or are you like me, full of recyclable lines?

[–]AmbitiousDrone 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Well, you are a funny guy if you can make someone laugh, you're a smooth/good conversationalist if you can engage someone. Comedians literally re-hash a lot of their same jokes over and over again even before bringing it to the stage. You're not "faking it" -- most people really are predictable, or at the very least we all follow a bunch of social norms that can be targeted to make conversations easier. EVERYONE has a "boss" that bypassed them for a promotion, EVERYONE wants to feel validation for looking good / performing well, EVERYONE can be amused by jokes they probably have heard before, or like to be surprised by new ones they haven't heard before.

Look into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

Edit: It's a stage of mastery to feel like an "imposter" or to feel like you're faking it. We'll all get it if we get skilled enough. The idea is to get even better so we stop feeling like an imposter.

Also, if you tell people you're a millionaire and you aren't, that's when you're faking it and you're a lying asshole who is "faking it".

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorFieldLine 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Maybe. I actually do stand up comedy when I have time, so I get what you're saying. But I would like to think that I can do better than act out a rehearsed routine every time I meet someone.

*Edited for clarity

[–]AmbitiousDrone 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It is better (or at least you can make it better) -- just because the beginning stages of interacting with people is super easy and appears easy doesn't mean that as you progress with knowing someone that it continues to be so. As well, you can begin molding yourself into someone you do find interesting, or find a goal that gives you meaning beyond a "rehearsed routine".

I'd recommend doing what everyone gets told here: Read, lift. Read the sidebar, read some philosophy, read any old bullshit so you can pick it apart or be entertained; lift some weights and think about who want to be or what you want to accomplish.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorFieldLine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the advice - I'm not really concerned about keeping busy or finding a purpose. I do have some direction, and I am in a very good place right now. It's this one thing that bothers me though, how I can be more creative socially.

[–]anotherrpshitlord 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Take chances. Step out of your comfort zone (tm).

Next time you go for that refill, try to come up with a different line, something situational. Do that once every three interactions. You probably won't come out as your usual smooth self, but it'll be an interesting little challenge. Over time you'll be more apt at coming up with new lines on the spot.

Wit, as has been mentioned here recently, is indeed a skill, and skills are improved with practice.

[–]ShounenEgo 4 points5 points  (1 child)

My 2 cents on likeability: It cannot be faked. Well, not entirely true. According to Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people", people can tell whether you're genuinely interested in them or you're just engaging into a conversation in order to relate emotionally so you can reach your goals. The former is what they want to have around, the latter is expected from a car salesman.

There are so many concepts in that book that apply to knowing people, not just girls. Like "arouse the other person an eager want", "be genuinely interested in them", "if you want to gather honey, don't kick the beehive", "instead of telling them that they're wrong directly and arouse negative emotions, either lead them to analyze their thought process or ignore it entirely".

It's a fucking goldmine!

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

The trick is to not come across as obsequious.

[–]TRP VanguardArchwinger 6 points7 points  (2 children)

This is pretty key as well. When you're asking questions to get a person talking, false smalltalk questions are just weird and awkward. The other person starts wondering why you're prolonging the conversation and what you really want.

Every question should have a tangent or a barb. Something that frames the conversation such that the other person is qualifying for you. Acknowledging the other person's feelings and restating their content can help, but eventually, we develop our own style of transitions.

[–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

fundamentally this is why alpha men who go and do shit regularly generally just become good conversationalists -- they have a wealth of experiences to relate to within conversation.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also disqualifying your self, or self-deprecating humor early on can cause the other person to drop their guard and invest more because by willing to look vulnerable and not appearing to meet some high-and-mighty expectation the other person can ease up and reciprocate without worry of an ulterior motive. Humor is the best way to drop someones defenses,

[–]vezokpiraka 1 point2 points  (5 children)

How do I get people who don't want to talk to me to say something?

I've met quite a few girls that didn't read want to speak about anything. Every question was answered with one word or something like that.

After alcohol things got a lot better, but what if there is no alcohol?

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

if it's a girl? Say something that pisses her off, or she disagrees with.

Ever notice how internet hate is always easier to find than an echo chamber? Everyone loves to tell someone how wrong you are, and how right you are. Just don't go saying Cosby did no wrong, or something equally abhorent

[–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just don't go saying Cosby did no wrong, or something equally abhorent

I can see the AskTRP thread now: "TRP told me to tell girls hitler did nothing wrong why am i not getting laid?"

[–]Joseph_the_Carpenter 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Mini FR: I was sitting enjoying a local band and a drink, sat next to some girl there whose body language and short responses said leave me alone. Eventually I took the hint and not seeing a way to get past her huge bitch shield I found another group of people to enjoy because she was killing the mood until she left.

This post on ice breaking is a good solution, assuming someone is open to conversation. If they have the Bitch Shield up your odds of getting past it and someone engaging with you is nil unless you hit on just the right topic or say the perfect thing.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorFieldLine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sometimes people don't want to talk. Or they're not a nice person. Maybe they got dumped that morning. Maybe that ate some bad cheese. It could be any one of a million things, all you should think is that you didn't do anything wrong and it's not your problem.

Hell, I was hitchhiking in the Middle East this one time and I started talking to the driver - figured that's why he picked me up, right? For the company? I guess not, because he kicked me out of his car, right on the side of the highway, in the rain, because I was interrupting his peace and quiet. I don't know what his issue was, and frankly, I don't really care. There are plenty of interesting people in the world, no use in getting bent out of shape over a particular one that isn't responsive to your bullshit.

[–]goemon45 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can someone please give an indepth answer to this question

[–]notrustled 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Everyone can talk, but to have a real good and flowing conversation is a totally different game. I know because holding up conversations is still one of my weaknesses (it's getting better though) and this is rock solid advice for me. Thanks, man.

Thank you to those who have signed up for the PDF.

What's that PDF about? Looks like I missed out something.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just pm me, I'll be sending it out end of month. It includes my 8 core rp lessons. Can be rather meta as I'm a philosopher. (Analytic, meta ethics and semantics, practicing stoic).

[–]Toolazy2work 1 point2 points  (1 child)

A great ice breaker that was actually used on me was "what is one thing that makes you awesome?"
And I was kinda taken aback. I had never been asked that before. I actually had to do some (simple) reflection and respond "what constitutes 'awesome'?" This actually leads to conversation and is an opener I've used ever since.

[–]Burn_The_Thunder 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like this, it's more fun than a "what are you passionate about?" and can be used earlier in the interaction. Thanks!

[–]30fretibanezguy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I love this. I didn't even realise this was something I needed to change until you pointed it out. A lot of my conversations are just the same 5 or so questions now I think about it. Props to you for this post.

[–]CisMalePatriarch 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think this post requires more concrete examples for the spergs among us. RP homework: everyone try to remember their icebreakers and post here examples that I errrr we can use.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)


I like your thinking. That's mine now. I'll be adding homework to the PDF lessons in bite sizes, and future posts will always include a weekly assignment.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

How do I sign up for the PDF?