Rant/VentingIf you don't sleep, you might as well not lift. (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by TRP VanguardWhisper

"Golly gee wilikers, Whisper, I work and work out until 11 pm, and then get up at 5 in the morning 6 days out of every 7, and then I eat a nutritious breakfast ( cuz' I suuuuuuure don't wanna be unhealthy! ). But when I have a rare day off, and I go out to meet girls, I just feel tired and want to go home! Whatever could be wrong? Is it my attitude?

Look, I realize some of you bros never had fathers, but Jesus fuck, how dumb can you be?

If you do not sleep, you might as well not lift.

Lifting doesn't build muscle. Lifting incentivizes your body to build muscle. To actually build muscle, you need to eat and sleep. How the fuck are you going to build muscle if you don't give your body any rest to do it in?

Look down. Right now, sitting at your computer, playing with your phone, whatever, look the fuck down.

Do you have a fat belly, but the rest of you isn't? Then you don't sleep enough. And your testosterone is low, because you're using up all the same raw materials to make the excess cortisol that's making you fat. And your workouts aren't working because your testosterone is low and your cortisol is high and you don't get any recovery time anyway and your neurotransmitters are also all out of whack because your digestive system (yes, your digestive system, you scientific illiterate) is responsible for synthesizing most of them, and it's busy being fucked by all that cortisol.

And your dick doesn't work because your testosterone is low and your cortisol is high and your neurotransmitters are fucked up.

But you can't figure out why you are "tired and depressed".

Really. It doesn't get any simpler than this. If you are tired, sleep. Your body is speaking in the clearest possible language, and if you're still not listening, then it is not your body's fault.

Give your body what it asks for. You could have learned this from a children's cartoon.

If you are tired, do not fuck. Sleep.


This was a stupid article, and I shouldn't be putting my standard "Bitcoin-instead-of-more-Reddit-Gold" address (1DChc2Azt3zGHbZcwBwPG42jL9B8SuktdD) at the bottom of it. It's a stupid article because it states the blindingly fucking obvious, which is no great feat to point out. I shouldn't be rewarded for this. But none of you should need it, and apparently some of you did. For the rest of you, I apologize for this blatant insult to your fucking intelligence.

[–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana 140 points141 points  (91 children)

Sleep is hugely important for your athletic and muscular development. Almost any high-level athlete can tell you about the importance of sleep, especially Olympic or professional athletes where a fraction of a second can mean the difference between winning and losing.

Many top-level athletes get huge amounts of sleep. Pete Sampras, for example, was known to sleep 13 hours a day, and both Roger Federer and LeBron James sleep 12 hours a day.

I've also noticed that I tend to injure myself at the gym if I don't get enough sleep. I've made a pact with myself to skip the gym if I'm seriously lacking sleep, as it's not worth getting injured.

Sleep is also important for your mental health as well. There are millions of studies on how it cleans out toxins from your brains, helps you form long term memories, lowers stress, makes you more creative, etc.

TL;DR: Getting enough sleep is one of the simplest and most effective "life hacks" out there. If you're eating well, exercising, and getting enough sleep, you're physically far ahead of the majority of people.

[–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (27 children)

How do they (LeBron and Federer) get so much sleep though? It's hard for me to sleep for 9 hrs

[–]anonlymouse 50 points51 points  (4 children)

They probably exercise enough that their body needs that much. I find it much easier to sleep after working out.

[–]charlesbukowksi 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Exactly. Same thing happens if you stay awake 48 hours.

[–]GunsGermsAndSteel 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This. I've never been much of a sleeper, don't need much sleep, don't want much sleep. But as far as actual insomnia, it's been non-existent since I started working out consistently.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is also the answer to all the 'worrying about shit' that keeps you awake in bed. I find that if I am properly physically exhausted from a heavy workout (or even the day after when in recovery mode, honestly) that I fall asleep easily. If my gym routine gets messed up for whatever reason, my sleep get worse

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can ONLY sleep well after working out hard.

So I have to workout every day now.

[–]Senior Contributorcocaine_face 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Have you ever done intense heavy exercise? I found my sleep requirements went up significantly with an increased exercise workload.

[–]Surf_Or_Die 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Work out until you wanna die and then keep going for another hour. 12 hours will feel like your getting up at 6am.

[–]watermocha 5 points6 points  (0 children)

These guys are professional world class athletes. Their 9-5 job is train train train eat and sleep, while we have to prepare our own food drive to work through rush hour, and do our day jobs.

They can and must sleep 13 hours to earn the hundreds of thousands of dollars at the end of tournaments.

[–]laere 37 points38 points  (31 children)

Say it with me MELA-FUCKING-TONIN.

Getting some help through things like melatonin, ZMA, or even things like phenibut (great fucking sleep, do your RESEARCH here though!!!).

I used to have a hard as fuck time sleeping, I'd always be kept awake by my active as fuck brain, worrying about dumb shit. It would take me 45min-1hr just to fall asleep. Melatonin and 2 ZMA pills makes me instantly fucking sleepy and is a godsend when wanting to get 8-9 hours of non-ass raping sleep.

Cheers to you, and /u/Whisper.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

ZMA destroys my appetite. I end up having to force feed myself to hit calorie goals. Melatonin can make your body lazy with it's own production. I would suggest first changing things like the amount of light and amount of computer screen and light exposure ~1.5 hours post-bed before supplementing.

[–]singeblanc 11 points12 points  (1 child)

For me the biggest difference came when I installed programs to remove the blue light from my screens (f.lux for Linux, Twilight for Android). For the first time in my life I felt tired sitting in front of my computer!

[–]Subcommandante_Khan 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I finally got dark theme for reddit. A god send.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (9 children)

Currently on phenibut hah. It's my sunday indulgence and def helps with sleep.

I sometimes take melatonin too but I use it sparingly these days. I once became dependent on it. I actually found that micro-dosing works really well as a sleep catalyst. Just break off like 0.25mg

[–]648262[🍰] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I fucking love phenibut. Without doubt my drug of choice. And it's a god damn Sunday drug. I feel like such an adult child sometimes. I don't like parties, but I like my drugs. Especially the ones that gives me the most blissful sleep I've ever had. You can go into the recreational levels of 1g+, but we all know we shouldn't. It's better with the small dosage a few hours before sleep.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I take a few grams every Saturday and Sunday. It's just amazing positivity and enhanced sensory experiences. It's beautiful stuff.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm the same way... not really into parties, although I'd like to try some festivals like Shambhala with people on the same wavelength. I love drugs/nootropics but only certain ones. Need to do a cost/benefit analysis first haha. But is phenibut ever the best Sunday drug. Go for a walk with the iPod, ponder about your goals and progress, grab a coffee to exacerbate the effects, do some chores, lift weights, play poker. That's my day today. The only times I've done 1g+ I end up feeling sick.

[–]laere 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I also heard lower doses seem to work better too.

[–]drallcom3 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I take 1.5mg melatonin every night and it's very nice. 3mg has a much lower effect and with 9mg it's like taking nothing at all.

I recommend trying 1, 1.5 and 2mg, then see what worked best.

[–]AntixD 2 points2 points [recovered]

does your body get accustomed to it? and eventually the effect wears off after time?

[–]drallcom3 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Doesn't wear off so far after maybe 2-3 months. It's also not a wonderdrug, it just makes you more tired and the sleep a bit deeper. Keeping a good sleep rhythm is equally important.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's what I heard too. I mean 10mg will knock me out but then I wake up feeling artificially rested at 2am.

[–]draketton 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Melatonin is good but be prepared to waste $50 on brands and doses that do nothing for you until you find one that works.

[–]rothkochapel 0 points1 point  (1 child)

in my experience schiff = shit, nature's bounty works better, swanson is the best

[–]draketton 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I settled on source naturals as my go to

[–]AntixD 1 points1 points [recovered]

does your body get accustomed to it? and eventually the effect wears off after time?

[–]RedPillScare 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, but you can become dependent. Google it, son!

[–]cobalt1728 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im sorry but I tried melatonin, different dosages, different timings and not once have I noticed a fucking difference with melatonin

[–]SW9876 11 points12 points  (18 children)

I feel like I need 10 hours of sleep to function, whereas everyone else is fine on 6.

[–]singeblanc 4 points5 points  (2 children)

"Fine" is relative. Personally I'm useless if I build up a sleep debt outside of my 8 hour a night average.

[–]youeatlikeachild 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Get a sleep test at a sleep lab, host of issues from restless leg, sleep apnea, fucked up nasal passages etc.

My buddy had surgery to open his nasal passages and it changed his life, he was getting something like 30% of the oxygen he should be getting and was always tired, could sleep 20 hours a day.

I have sleep apnea, they want me to use the machine for best results but breath right strips and a custom mouth tray have had a huge impact for me, adding at least 3 hours of real sleep I was missing before.

[–]singeblanc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think at 8 hours a night I'm getting the perfect amount of sleep, no?

Anyway, a piece of counter-advice on the nasal surgery: my uncle had the same and ended up completely losing most of his sense of taste and smell - and he was a real foody before!

[–]PianoIsGod 2 points3 points  (1 child)

From my experience: regular intense exercise paired with Zinc, Magnesium, Melatonin at night, and Vitamin D, Fish Oil, and Aspirin in the morning cured me of my crazy need for lots of sleep.

Also, I started making it a priority to relax and refresh my mind and body daily, and since have seen an increase in how deep my sleep is, and how much energy I have in the morning. I seriously recommend checking out Mike Cernovich for everything mind and body - that man changed my life.

[–]2awalt_cupcake 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why the asprin? And wouldn't your body build a resistance to that?

[–]maiway 0 points1 point  (6 children)

You may have sleep apnea or other sleep disorder, causing your sleep quality to be lower, thus requiring more quantity. That's what it was for me. Used to need 9 hours, now fine with 6.

[–]bluedrygrass 1 point2 points  (4 children)

How did you fix sleep apnea?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

wearing a mask when you sleep for the rest of your life

[–]2awalt_cupcake 1 point2 points  (2 children)

That's gay. Any alternatives?

[–]TheBloodEagleX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Losing weight tends to help (if you are overweight).

[–]youeatlikeachild 0 points1 point  (0 children)

breath right strips and those mouth trays that help open your airway work for me, eventually I'll cave and get that annoying fucking machine, can't limit your health because you want to look cool sleeping.

[–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (4 children)

You sleep in cycles of 90 minutes, so you need either 10.5 hours of sleep, or 9 hours (with an hour to actually get to sleep).

[–]SW9876 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I try to do that. It's hard since I don't know how long it will take me to fall asleep. If I set aside an hour and it takes me only 20 minutes to fall asleep, I'll be 40 minutes into my next sleep cycle. Also, doesn't that just make you groggy when you wake up, but not actually affect you much after you get up?

[–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You'll still stay groggy for a bit, which can cause some brain farts as you start your day. What I do is check the time when I wake up naturally, if I have less than 90 minutes left before I need to be up, I just get up then.

[–]SW9876 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I never wake up naturally. If I slept naturally i'd sleep for like 14 hours.

[–]anonlymouse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That shouldn't happen forever, once you catch up on the sleep you're missing you should be waking up naturally at more reasonable time (6, 7.5 or 9 hours).

[–]TheBloodEagleX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It also depends on cycles, not just hours! This site is really helpful: http://sleepyti.me/

A good night's sleep consists of 5-6 complete sleep cycles. A full sleep cycle lasts about 90 minutes and is normally repeated several times each night.

If you're waking up before a cycle natural ends, you end up feeling kinda shitty and not well rested. Everyone has a different circadium rhythm though but try the site above out.

[–]1Snivellious 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I found real progress on strength and wellness when I stopped working out on low-sleep days. I was stuck between succeeding at a shitty, low-weight set and failing and risking injury on a quality set.

Neither of those were productive, but taking a fucking nap (or going to bed earlier) is.

[–]foldpak111 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There will be periods were sleep deprivation is necessary: The first couple of years starting a business, aggressively building a 6 month emergency fund, getting out of debt or any other fucked up situation you find yourself in.

[–]AllCircuitTeam105 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Tom Brady sleeps at like 9

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I remember Ray Lewis saying at the end of his career his regiment (besides deer antlers) in the offseason was working out 2-3 hours a day and sleeping 12-14 hours at night. Looks like it was a big reason he was able to play effectively till his retirement.

[–]occupythekitchen 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I also sleep 10 to 12 hours a day and if I get 7 or 8 I can function well but sleeping so much really fucks everything up

[–]ThorMonkey 30 points30 points [recovered]

The only thing I take issue with here is that some folks (like myself) have chronic insomnia and just can't get 8+ hours and I'm certain that I would be doing a lot worse if I didn't lift.

Gains are slow, but they're there and my compound lifts are still going up slowly despite being a relatively old fart of 35 years old that just started lifting at 33.

Advice I would give to my fellow insomniacs is to keep a consistent bedtime and wake up time routine and still allow for a minimum of 8.5 hours in bed even if you know you won't be sleeping for the duration. Shut your screens off at least an hour before pillow time, install flux on your computer, get rid of your bedroom clock, avoid caffeine after noon. Learn to meditate and don't get upset when the inevitable middle of the night wake ups happen. It's not the same as sleep (duh), but embracing the down time and resting your body/mind will still be better than hopping on your computer or tablet or getting stressed and pissed off about not sleeping.

I also recommend experimenting with low dosages of melatonin. I find that 1-3mg just before bedtime has me down and out for 2 sleep cycles (3 hours) within a few minutes of hitting the pillow. I can usually get another 2 cycles within the 8.5 hour window, leaving me with 6 hours for the night, which is a whole lot better than the 0-3 hours I was averaging previously.

Tackling insomnia is not really that different from starting to lift, fixing your diet, etc. Come up with strategies and implement them, stick to it, learn what works for you and what doesn't.

[–]frequentlywrong 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Have you tried eating more magnesium? I had huge insomnia problems and it was all caused by a lack of magnesium. Try eating more dark greens like spinach or taking chelated magnesium supplements.

Taking melatonin is basically a band aid solution.

[–]ThorMonkey 7 points7 points [recovered]

Magnesium deficiency can definitely play a role. However, too much can also be a bad thing by causing either a calcium deficiency (Ca and Mg compete for same receptor sites) or dehydration. I've noticed that if I take the recommended 3 ZMA pills before bed I'm likely to wake up after 1 sleep cycle, whereas if I reduce my dosage to 1 or 2, I'll almost always get a 2nd cycle in before waking up.

[–]frequentlywrong 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is why I try to maintain my magnesium/calcium levels by eating a lot of green vegetables like spinach and kale. It works much better than pills in my opinion. I do supplement d3, zinc and vitamin c.

Do you wake up in the night and your mind starts wondering/racing from thought to thought? If so the cause is something called "adrenaline dominance". You can fix it by eating some coconut oil before going to bed. Coconut oil is a very effective brain fuel and will keep the brain calm during the night.

[–]Casanova-Quinn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Check if your ZMA pills contain calcium. Some do, and it's not good; calcium blocks zinc and magnesium absorption (thats means no dairy before bed btw). Also watch for the "oxide" or "sulfate" types of the mineral, which have a poor absorption rate. I just buy zinc chelate* and magnesium citrate* separately, with good results.

Edit: *

[–]GoatwithHorns 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If I take magnesium and zink together before bed I often find myself having to pee in the middle of the night. For that reason I'm considering taking it when I wake up instead.

[–]foldpak111 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Calm is a really good product to consume before bed. Eat plenty of spinach and broccoli throughout the day and drink calm before bed time. Sleep feels real good.

[–]ANUS_CONE 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I came here to say this. I used to have chronic insomnia, and have overcome it to an extent through some lifestyle changes. To this day though, I still average about 5 hours per night. I recover and make gains just fine lifting 4 days per week. Sure, perfect conditions, meaning perfect sleep, perfect diet, having the time to be 200% consistent will always yield better results than if one or more links in the chain are weak, but that doesn't mean "you might as well not lift".

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

5hrs sleep gains crew checking in TOOT TOOT

[–]GoatwithHorns 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Seriously? Can caffeine mess with your sleep if it's taken after noon? I should really cut down on my energy drinks and eat a banana before working out instead of taking one.

[–]UFND 2 points3 points  (0 children)

IIRC (and without a source to back my propositions), caffeine reduces the proportion of slow-wave/deep sleep which is related recovering from neuromuscular stress. To counteract this, there was this one research paper that suggests L-Theanine (an amino acid extract most abundant in green tea) maybe able to mitigate this effect.

Caffiene + L-theanine is also a popular combination of drugs that many newbies entering the nootropic world try for the first time.

[–]occupythekitchen 0 points1 point  (9 children)

Interesting I need to try melatonin I just don't want to fuck with sleeping pills

[–]Purecorrupt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wake up in the middle of the night after what i assume to be 2 or 3 REM cycles almost every night. Not sure when it started - probably bad habits in college. Makes me think I should get checked out for insomnia, but not sure what a doctor could actually do to help.

[–]beginner_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Similar boat than you. Rather old and sleep problems. Still lifting clearly has helped improve my looks and it wasn't time wasted. Better to lift "inefficient" than play video games or watch TV.

Of course you must be realistic about the outcome and also focus on other changes in your life style. You probably should not waste money on any supplements or protein powder stuff until you got your sleep habits in control.

[–]DannyDemotta 48 points49 points  (42 children)

Related: Too many people work out for too many hours on too many days, also contributing to lack of recovery and plateauing strength/size.

If your Bench is, say, 185lbs max...you don't need to be doing a 2-hour chest workout with 9 different exercises. You may put on some muscle that way, but you won't get stronger. You need to cut back on volume significantly, and lower your rep ranges from 8-12+ down to 3-5. Once your Bench has improved - to 275, 295, 315 - then those 2 hour workouts will actually mean something. Until then, you just look like an idiot throwing up baby weights for hours on end.

When was the last time you saw one of your YouTube heroes benching or squatting 135 for working sets? Probably never - 135 is a warm-up. Those guys didn't get huge curling 20lb dumbbells for 10 sets/10 reps. They did it by doing pull-ups/chin-ups, then weighted chin-ups/pull-ups, THEN focusing on direct bicep work. You just don't see it because they did it years ago. That routine you're copying from them, or from the muscle mags/websites? Not gonna work for you because you haven't done the groundwork.

This is the life of a Natty lifter. None of this is applicable if you're on hormones/HGH/etc. Can't give advice on that.

[–]TractorOfTheDoom 10 points11 points  (10 children)

Do a strength routine for 6 months. You will also grow, since the volume is almost the same as in hypertrophy routines. volume = weightrepssets.

[–]LolBrah123 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Not quite. Do a strength routine for as long as the gains are coming. That could be 6 months, could be only 3 - everyone is different.

Once you are no longer able to consistently add weight to the bar, consider yourself an intermediate.

[–]laere 1 point2 points  (1 child)

when would you drop from a 5x5 squatting 3 times a week routine to one with a little bit less volume, like 3x5, since the weights going up like crazy?

[–]LolBrah123 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you're a beginner on 5x5 Stronglifts, when you've had to deload your weights (generally 10% off whatever you were doing) 2-3 times. A deload happens when you've stalled on a certain weight for three workouts in a row.

[–]DannyDemotta 7 points8 points  (6 children)

Very true.

Size Strength is most correlated with stimulus (weight/resistance), not time under tension (hypertrophy). You can easily do both, but its best to get your strength in first when you're the freshest - THEN do your high-volume stuff. This is especially true on a cut because recovery/energy/CNS fatigue will be at a premium.

Starting Strength and similar programs are about 70/30 strength vs size, so its a good mix.

Edit: Strength is most correlated, not Size. Benching 135 for 5, 10, 15 reps is no guarantee your 1-rep on bench will be 225lbs. You'll just get better and better at Benching 135. Weight is also correlated with Size, but not to the same degree that Weight is correlated with Strength.

[–]Interversity 4 points5 points  (5 children)

Size is most correlated with stimulus (weight/resistance), not time under tension (hypertrophy).

What do you mean by size here?

[–]fusionpoo 3 points4 points  (3 children)

Literal size, If you want larger muscles you need to lift heavy. Doing low reps with high weight.

[–]SilkTouchm 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Doing low reps with high weight is going to give you strength, not size.

[–]DannyDemotta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good catch, used the wrong word there. Was on mobile, at the gym making gainz, and didn't proofread well enough. I edited it.

[–]mindcontrollingrobot 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I was at the gym for an hour. This dude worked out his biceps the entire time...of course his legs looked like twigs.

I can hammer out my entire split in an hour. I have no idea how people can spend hours in the gym unless they a a professional builder/athlete.

[–]DannyDemotta 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I do Push/Pull on the same day, and for my heavy compounds (Bench, weighted Pull-Ups), I'm taking 4-minute rest breaks. So a 5x5 Bench alone, with warm-ups, can take about 30 minutes. Pull-ups, another 30. Then, yeah, the rest is done in about an hour or so - less rest, more super-sets, etc. Took me about 2:15 on Saturday, about 35 total sets.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't mean to discredit any of your knowledge and experience with this kind of thing, but the issue with this kind of advice over the internet, especially on a forum, is that movement awareness is best shared through movement PLUS information/wisdom, not information/wisdom MINUS movement and MINUS awareness of who the sender even is. To add on to this, this type of advice is HIGHLY individual. This will never apply to or benefit all of the individuals who are not smart enough to keep this in mind.

Like I said, not to discredit you, but if you are reading this and think you are benefitting from this or ANY kind of information that has neglected to reciprocate the information sharing (i.e. who you are and where you are PERSONALLY and INDIVIDUALLY with movement, exercise, strength, etc.), think twice.

[–]daprospecta 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Former D1 athlete and avid weight lifter here. Everything you said is correct. You are leaving out something very important. Strength training is not a taxing workout from a stand point of burning calories. Sure, a heavy squat or bench will cause you to lose your breath but you are resting for five minutes. Now, look at the guy doing 10 reps every 45-60 seconds. He is probably breaking a sweat and his heart rate is consistently elevated. If you are doing a strength training program with little cardio(some say it decreases gains), your diet better immaculate. I have lifted heavy weight on the big 3 lifts and while it was rewarding, it was not amazing like the first time I dunked a basketball or hit a home run in baseball. I personally want to LOOK like I lift heavy. I don't care to impress anyone in the gym with my lifts.

[–]silverfox007 12 points13 points  (5 children)

"Do you have a fat belly, but the rest of you isn't? Then you don't sleep enough. And your testosterone is low, because you're using up all the same raw materials to make the excess cortisol that's making you fat."

Could someone explain this in simpler terms for someone retarded like me. When he mentions raw material is he talking about food? And I don't know what cortisol is either.

I was under the impression that as I get older my metabolism slows down. And my diet has not changed much from when I was younger. I drink mainly water and try to stay away from fast food. But I eat late, big portions, have stopped exercising, and sleep about 6 hours a night.

[–][deleted] 12 points12 points

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[–]majorchamp 5 points6 points  (2 children)

I've done IF for several years. Used to believe in the 'magic' of 'burning fat for fuel'. It's since been debunked. That said, I continue cause I have more energy with a fasted workout than with food in my system, and I also prefer bigger meals versus smaller 300 calorie ones. IF is a tool like anything else.

[–]rpscrote 2 points3 points  (1 child)

only shysters and snake oil salesmen ever said anything like "intermittent fasting is magic for burning fat for fuel." Reputable sources, like the IF guy himself Martin Berkhan, have always said it is a tool and a proof-of-concept that 6 meals a day "to keep the metabolism fire stoked" is pure broscience.

[–]laere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You should check out the Leangains sub, Martin is a fucking beast now.

[–]foldpak111 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Cortisol feels like painful vibrations throughout your body. Pulling all-nighters and stress will do it to you.

[–]Redasshole 29 points30 points  (9 children)

I knew a guy who were sleeping only 3-4 hours a day. I don't remember what his job was. It was a good job, like attorney. During the night he used to write books. Then he died, around 40 years old, without being sick or anything.

[–]SpinalArt 11 points12 points  (4 children)

Fuck. I'm like this. I hope I don't die soon.

[–][deleted] 7 points7 points

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[–]SpinalArt 6 points7 points  (2 children)

It's not that I can't sleep. I've been working two jobs to get back on my feet after a custody battle and my priority has been my finances while everything else takes a backseat. Good news is that I'm only doing this for two more months but I still worry about it's effects later on.

[–]RedPillScare 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Chronic sleep deprivation is bad, but getting sufficient sleep again usually reverses the effects. Just don't make a lifetime out of it.

[–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (1 child)

i know a guy who slept 8 hours and he died without being sick at 25


[–]PlanB_pedofile 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's almost going to be me if I don't get out of this rat race working 70 hour weeks in a shit economy.

[–]Riddick_ 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Fact: Muscles are Built during your Rest period.

[–]Lord_NShYH 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This is so true. Recently, my body has been demanding sleep louder than ever before, and I have had to listen. I'll be 31 in about a week, and all though my 20's, I have been crushing it in my career at the expense of my health (I have been in and out of shape a few times since my teens). Well, now I have been lifting, doing cardio, eating right, and finally getting enough sleep.

I haven't felt this great - and haven't had such a powerful libido - since my early 20's.

SLEEP. It is absolutely necessary to stay on top of your game.

[–]ColdEiric 10 points11 points  (6 children)

It's a stupid article because it states the blindingly fucking obvious, which is no great feat to point out. I shouldn't be rewarded for this. But none of you should need it, and apparently some of you did. I apologize for this blatant insult to your fucking intelligence.

I am grateful for your apology, Whisper. However, I am far more grateful for your writing. Your texts and comments are what I look for, so I'd rather hear you insult my intelligence than for you to stop telling me how I could do better. Men might talk a lot of bullshit, but I do not mind older, wiser, more experienced men spitting bullshit at my face. In my mind, there is too much gold and bread and wine mixed with that spit. In my mind, I would be stupid if didn't listen to that.

It was not a stupid article. Remember that the flairs aren't pretty, ornamental things.

[–]majorchamp 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Maybe I am an exception, but I have averaged 5-6 hours of sleep for over 8 years, been lifting 4-5. I've done a full recomp and look good. Hell I don't even eat till 1pm everyday, and followed LeanGains a while back doing intermittent fasting. Could more sleep provide me better results? maybe. But to suggest you will get nowhere is an exaggeration. The body adapts, and in my case hitting 8+ hours on a weekend sometimes leaves me feeling like shit tbh.

[–]GunsGermsAndSteel 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I don't sleep enough, yet I don't have (much of a) gut, I'm making steady gains in the gym, I am alert and I can concentrate.

I've always been a freak when it comes to sleep. I just don't need/want as much of it as many people do.

That being said, my gym gains would probably be a lot better if I got another hour or two of sleep a night. But to say I "might as well not lift" because I don't rest enough is simply not true.

[–]sourpuss_ashkenazi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've got delayed sleep phase disorder, where I can NEVER fall asleep before half 3 am. It's been like this since I was a small kid. I can wake up at 6 am and I still wont fall asleep until the next 3 am. So For normal life I have to get up at 7 and that's my lot.

[–]Auphor_Phaksache 7 points8 points  (7 children)

I hate that this is a fact. 6'2 boxer but also a combat vet. Insomnia and nightmares are literally killing me. If I could go to sleep I know my performance in the ring would skyrocket.

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper[S] 10 points11 points  (3 children)

combat vet. Insomnia and nightmares are literally killing me.

  • Get your blood cortisol levels checked. When (not if) you learn that they are high, 50mg of DHEA in the morning (must be in the morning) will help drive them down.

  • Hang out with other combat vets who have some idea what you're going through.

  • Cry if you can. We usually give the opposite advice, but post-combat stress is serious shit, and you need to vent. Just don't let bitches see you do it, because they think it's weak. Their idea of a bad day is denting their fender in the parking lot and spilling a latte on their new shoes. They have no fucking idea, and it cannot be explained to them.

  • Adopt a puppy or kitten. Studies have shown this helps a lot.

  • Try to focus on and accept what's around you. Many combat vets come back with the feeling that a veil has been torn off reality, and they've seen what the universe was really like outside a nice safe bubble inhabited by trivial people. That's not quite true. Whatever you went through was reality, but so are nice safe suburban neighborhoods. Not everywhere is a shithole full of ragheads trying to kill you.

Good luck out there.

[–]foldpak111 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They will soon once they break into combat roles. Femilitary at your service.

[–]cpnurrenberg 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I have ptsd as well; my two pence:

  1. No opinion/comment.
  2. YES. Even just having someone that you can talk to about your issues, what you went through, and what you carry now can be a massive help.
  3. "They have no fucking idea, and it cannot be explained to them." is a strong argument for #2 as well.
  4. Yes, although I personally don't trust myself to take care of a pet ATM.
  5. This (or something very similar) is called mindfulness and I honestly think it's a technique that everyone should learn. It's the best way I found to combat the dissociation/derealization, other than SH, which is, obviously, NOT recommended.

Whatever you went through was reality, but so are nice safe suburban neighborhoods. Not everywhere is a shithole full of ragheads trying to kill you.

As true as this is, simply understanding this fact doesn't fix the issues at hand. Do what you can to help yourself but understand when you need help.

[–]52576078 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Check out ibogaine. See my reply to the other PTSD guy for details.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Look into getting a puppy. Or adopt a retired dog like a retired racing greyhound or something. They are called man's best friend for a reason. A friend of mine loves his dog wholeheartedly. When he gets stressed or has nightmares from serving inAfghanistan, his dog really helps him and comforts him. They can sense if you're stressed.

[–]Barmacist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Talk to your doctor about Prazosin. It's traditionally a blood pressure med but there is good evidence that it helps with chronic nightmares related to PTSD. I've seen a few patients try it and for some it completely stopped the nightmares. Source: I'm a Pharmacist

[–]52576078 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Seriously man, you don't have to live like that. Check out ibogaine. It's a miracle cure for PTSD. Changed my life. You have to travel to Canada or Mexico, but it's the greatest investment you'll ever make in your own mental health. Ibogaine is so powerful that it's the only known substance that can break heroin addiction. There are minor risks if you have certain heart conditions, but as long as your blood pressure is being monitored, you'll be fine.

[–]Transmigratory 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Work out time seems to be the problem a lot of the time. No need to do a 2 hour work out.

If you design your own workout plan and it takes more than an hour or 1hr 30mins... you're a noob. Read a book and use a plan like a 5x5 or 3x5, or some other beginner routine. That'll get you out of the gym around an hour or so. That means you'll be able to sleep more for dem gainz.

When you're cycling and you find that a work out plan will take a lot of hours... break it up and train more frequently during the week.

I remember Scott Herman mentioning Muscle Genes, perhaps it is worth getting that to see how you can max gains relative to your genetic make up. While factoring in your other commitments.

Oh and work out partners. Try to get someone to do the same routine if you must have a work out partner. Keep it to one person max, two depending on how good they are.

This, however is for the 9 to 5ers. If you work more, than you'll need to decide to avoid the gym or live with less hours sleep. Or perhaps use your weekends.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Aren't the 5x5 and such those workouts that caused T-rex bodies? Huge legs and smaller upper bodies?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

5X5 does have a fair bit of leg work, but does not skimp on the upper body.

It goes like this

A: Squat, Bench, row's B: Squat, overhead press, deadlift

and rotate. a pretty good overall workout.

[–]MortalSisyphus 13 points13 points [recovered]

Nah, I'm pretty sure we all just need to masturbate less. /s

[–]Enjoyitbeforeitsover 6 points7 points  (12 children)

Wouldn't that be key to increasing testosterone?

[–]tb87670 3 points4 points  (3 children)

People have to judge their sleep cycles for themselves to a degree. As a teen I required 10 hours of sleep on the dot and woke up feeling good. As an adult I don't wake up good no matter what anymore whether I sleep 6 or 12 hours, but I function best with 7 or 8 hours of sleep. Sometimes my body wants 9 though especially if I was shorted a few hours of sleep during the week. Might take a few months to judge what works best for you, might just take a week or two. This is an important thing to do no matter what, exercising or not (but you should exercise) because it affects your body so much.

As for your attitude Whisper on this being a stupid article, no it isn't. So many people leave our school system unable to write an essay or unable to do basic Algebra. Many young men are not taught what needs to be taught anymore. If you assume everyone gets a basic package of info when they in fact don't then they are simply not getting the basic help that is most needed to build a foundation on. Not only that, while wrangling with the truths of the Red Pill sometimes guys keep slipping back to blue. I had a minor slip just last night. Sometimes during those slips it's best for me to just go through the basics and work your mind through all the stuff we 'should' know like a checklist. Sleep-Check. Exercise-Check. Meditation-Check. Basic stuff like this helps in different ways for different people.

[–]aewiggin 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Yeah, I've recently realized how important sleep is, and from experimenting I've concluded that I need at least 9 hours to feel good.

The problem is that I need to be super organised to make this happen. If I want to go to the gym before uni I need to wake up at about 0500, which means I need to go to sleep around 1930-2000.

I haven't got yet at the point where this is consistently possible, but I'm working on it.

[–]AnAbsoluteSith 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Jesus how do you survive? Like you, I wake up at 5am to head out to gym before classes. However, going to sleep at 10pm cuts out so much of my time needed for studying/doing assignments. It's a struggle for us guys to make those school and gym gains.

[–]Xemnas81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do a 2 or 3-day full body split and stick to it. Check out Starting Strength. Use your free days to do assignments in the morning or evening.

[–]BannedBandit 6 points7 points  (3 children)

I actually no idiots that go to the gym twice a day, 6 days a week, and go to bed at 12 so they can wake up at 5 to "hit the gym early bro".

Meanwhile I have three 45 minute sessions a day and lift far more than them.

Don't let being a manlet trick you into thinking you need to do this.

[–]tirpt 13 points14 points  (2 children)

You probably meant 3 45min sessions a week.

[–]foldpak111 12 points13 points  (0 children)

No he really meant that two-a-days are for idiots, but THREE-a-days are the stuff champs are made of. True story, read it in the annual this morning.

[–]okkyle 3 points4 points  (0 children)

/u/Whisper, you brilliant bastard, you. I was honestly just about to write a small FR on this very topic.

I found TRP about a year ago and finally got into a consistent 5x5 lifting routine about 5 months ago. Diet has never been something I've had a problem with, I've always eaten very clean which has kept me trim over the years.

Predictably, I've had great results since I started hitting the gym. I won't go into detail on my progress, but I'll just say that there's been a clear difference in my physique. My biceps were just starting to stretch out my shirt sleeves, a lot more mass on my shoulders/traps area.

Well, for the last week I've been under huge pressure finishing a project at work, and I've had to stay up through the night, to 5am a couple times, averaging about 4 hours of sleep per night.

So what's happened to my gains after one week of moderate sleep deprivation? Seriously I've shrank down about 75%, no joke. My arms look lanky again, like they did pre-lifting. Shoulders and traps are almost gone. Without my chest and legs, which were always my strong areas anyway, you could basically look at me and not even know that I lift. Again, I want to emphasize that all this atrophy happened in one week.

In my experience, lack of sleep is the #1 gains destroyer, and it's not even close. Dudes will obsessively count their macros and avoid "too much" cardio like the plague, but yet they don't understand the absolutely crucial importance of proper sleep in gaining muscle.

[–]CyberninjaZen 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is difinitely true. I used to have sleeping problems and never made any gains even thoigh I worked out harder than lots of ppl I know. Now I am way bigger than before even though I lift less. I just sleep more now.

[–]Overzealous_BlackGuy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What about us that cant fit a good sleep schedule in atm?

Ive still gotten a large amount of results sleeping less than 7 hrs a night for almost 6 months.

My apprenticeship requirea night school which includes 3 hrs of welding straight. Plus home work and an hr ride home. Then i have to prepare for work at 5 am. I squeeze in the gym on my non school days.

[–]hawaiianko 1 point2 points  (0 children)

During weekdays I sleep for 3-7 hours s day and weekends about 12-14.im making some pretty good gains still

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah this is true and I'm fucking up. I really should sleep more

[–]UFND 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For people that want to try have their cake and eat it too:


Although it could do with an update on potential complications, (such as the potential dose-dependent correlation between melatonin dosage and proportion of time spent in a given sleep stage), it will serve you well.

Also get some vitamin D3 and zinc/magnesium supplementation. You don't get enough of the former unless you're a roasted beef jerky in the middle of the tropics. The latter can be put aside if you eat enough greens and you aren't always stuffed from eating proteins and fats.

I could go on, but these are good starting points for more rejuvenating sleep.

[–]DS-Slash 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I knew that that Dragonball picture was coming. No childrens cartoon though haha

[–]FaustoRMD 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Why is this shitty post sticked?

[–]Xemnas81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Shitty? I went from high school SMV7 to 22 year old depressed omega by hamstring why I don't need this advice. Need stuff like this sometimes to slap sense into you.

[–]rpscrote 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My girl gets mad at me when I pass her up for my daily 8 to 9 hours, no exceptions. The gain train dont stop

[–]dgfsf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What? I find it hard to sleep due to noise and general insomnia, as well as having to get up early. It's not as easy as you make it out to be.

[–]Yrenq 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then there's the fact that, in virtually every-fucking-thing you do, you do it better if you are well rested. I have a line in my personal code to this effect.

[–]MGTOW_player 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Curious, has anyone out there taken or known anyone who has taken notorious steroids, like tren, that cause sleep deprevation because they had such a busy schedule anyway?

I've spoken with guys on tren/test cycles who complain about lack of sleep but apparently have tons of energy. They weren't the types to work 12-16 hour days but figured it may be worth it for a really hard working guy who still wants to build insane strength and muscle.

Those guys were getting huge gains on 3-6 hours of sleep a night for months.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I give ye all my chart.

3-5 hours: significantly damaged mental abilities, no energy or motivation, body feels weak.

6-8 hours: I feel lots of energy and motivation, as well as concentration. Body feels normal and strong.

More then 8 hours: I feel rested, but without energy or motivation, I'm lazy ass. Body feels weak.

I sleep between 6 and 8 hours and I make gains be it in the gym or school.

[–]ThreeEyez 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is very true. My sleep has been so fucked lately and it's been making me feel like shit. The last few days I've been going to sleep at 11 and 12, and it's the best I've felt in a while. Back pain is starting to go away as well. Sleep is NOT a luxury.

[–]Polaris382 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Well Ronnie Coleman was averaging 5-6 hours a night.

[–]Magnum007 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ronnie Coleman also had some help from HGH/Test/hormones...

[–]laere 4 points5 points  (0 children)

pretty sure that dude was made of steroids

[–]Mifune_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's 3:30 am and i looked down and saw what you meant. I also have been working out for the past month. Thanks OP, I thought about gilding this, but I'm a poor bastard. Genuinely heartfelt thanks. Off to bed!

[–]StupidStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I applaud the sentiment, however to maintain focus I suggest that we leave specific advice to more topical forums when possible, such as Fitness, weightroom, malefashionadvice, seduction, etc. Otherwise TRP risks being reduced to the one-stop amateur hour of all male-related content, flooded with entry-level posts from sidebars elsewhere.

[–]borsodas 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I am a successful freelancer and can sleep as much as I want I exercise regularly and eat healthy, but I feel I sleep too much between 9-11 hours a night. It makes me feel achy and groggy and less productive I prefer to keep it to 8 hours. Also those are hours that I can not be drinking water so I wake up dehydrated. From someone who sleeps well and as much as they want whenever they want I see a lot of down sides.

[–]Xemnas81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Get 7hr 30. Set your clock for 8. 5 whole cycles. Sounds like 6 is too many for you.


[–]skinnysandvs 0 points1 point  (3 children)

What about high school students who have no time to sleep 8-10 hours a night? Is it worth lifting then? Usually I wake up at 6:30 but I'm lucky if I get off work, get all my homework done and am in bed by 11-12 on a good day

[–]bobbybouchier 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I can't afford to sleep much. I work 30-35 hours a week and am a full time student. I probably average 5-6 hours a night, so I know that I should sleep more but the only option is to stop working out entirely which I will not do.

[–]foldpak111 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Deprivation is fine to get your finances straight. You want to get it taken care of before your late 20's, though.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]4delicioustreats 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Depends where your value needs the most improving. If you can't feed yourself with one job, then you're worthless for the purposes of reproduction. Consider spending more time upgrading your hourly wage, vs working for a low one.

If youre making tonnes of money and are fat, cut a job and get fit.

Basically improve your weakest area.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]4delicioustreats 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I envy those with a 12" dick. I envy silver spoon kids who will inherit billions.

Too bad, mine will all come from hard work and right living.

[–]Subcommandante_Khan 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cut out coffee if you have to. Shit knocks me for a loop. It's a shame.

[–]1Snivellious 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This really shouldn't have been necessary or relevant, but that's not your fault. It's the fault of the motherfuckers who aren't sleeping and are bitching about how tired they feel.

Thanks for the moment of clarity (with some actual fucking science) for those who need it.

[–]AmazingAndy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

stressed out skinnyfat crew reporting in. no idea what my T level is.

[–]Stormhammer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

... Jesus christ.

Here I am at 12:45AM watching HGTV.... sigh. I do need to get into a better sleep pattern.

[–]kirbymaster7491 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, I've learned something today. Time to rearrange my day again.

[–]1RPAlternate42 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I'd like to compund this with: do an appropriate volume of weight work.

I was doing 5/3/1 with 5-06 4x12 accessory sets... I was getting 6-7 hours of sleep (though I couldn't sleep more) I was simultaneously hungry and had no appetite, but most importantly, my body stopped responding to the workouts... it refused to get stronger.

I ignored the signs of overtraining and I started getting skipped-beat palpitations earlier this week. Final doc consultation comes this week following my 24 hour Holter monitoring. It's been 6 days and I still have skipped beats.

Overtraining will actually prevent normal sleeping. If you are hitting the gym hard and still can't sleep, consider this article:


And this one:


[–]oso96 0 points1 point  (1 child)

[–]1RPAlternate42 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Trust me, I am. No rest days, 4 weight days, 2 BJJ days, little sleep. I have all the symptoms and they have been mounting for weeks. The heart thing was simply cherry on the shit sundae.

If I could sleep more it may not have been an issue.

[–]Predatorftfw 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sleep ~10 hours a day.

I should probably cut back.

[–]Havikz 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What do you do if you sleep TOO much? I usually sleep 10 hours a day and some days it can push 13 hours for no reason at all.

[–]pantsoffire 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks. Will get back off the late night sessions and back on sleep meds.

[–]RedPillScare 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a lot of good information on sleep, sleep deprivation, and the trade-offs between them in these two podcasts:



There's a rabbit hole of research here, which may convince you to get some damn sleep.

[–]RichieFinn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I go to sleep and constantly wake, this happens anywhere between 3 and 7 or 8 times a night. Anyone got any tips on this?

Even if ive worked from 9-5 then played a soccer game for an hour i still struggle to sleep properly

[–]ChadThundercockII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I now have some belly fat on what used to be ripped abs from 3 years of boxing. My dick is working great though. I tend to agree on the fact that the lack of sleep and overeating did me on it.

[–]monsunland 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I never lift and I am in way better shape than when I did. I run now (barefoot).

[–]Thizzlebot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This was a stupid article, and I shouldn't be putting my standard "Bitcoin-instead-of-more-Reddit-Gold"

It's funny how so many posts want to make money of chumps that are here to learn. Whatever though.

[–]Xemnas81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But Whisper, what if one has insomnia?

edit: Ignore. Some great advice.

[–]NikkyMontana 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I remember arnold schwarzenegger saying you should only sleep 6 hours

[–]2awalt_cupcake 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sleep more? Finally a TRP command I can win at.

Fuck your n counts I bet I can sleep more than you!

[–]1RXRob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There's a reason Tracey Emin made a video of David Beckham's post training nap. You're watching far more than a sleeping man

[–]like_a_ghost 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Upvote for good points and the DBZ reference. Goku is straight alpha

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