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Rant/Venting10 reasons we should be talking about male suicide on International Men's Day (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by rectanglered

I thought reason 2 was very telling.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/10-reasons-we-should-be-talking-about-male-suicide-on-internatio/

  1. Too many men are dying Male suicide is a public health emergency. 13 men a day kill themselves in the UK, that’s nearly 5,000 men a year, accounting for 78pc of all suicides in the country.

  2. Because some people are against talking about male suicide Strange though it seems, there are some people who oppose attempts to put the spotlight on men’s issues. Jess Phillips MP, for example, recently sniggered as she voted against proposals for a male suicide debate on International Men’s Day. Then there was the bizarre case of the University of York abandoning plans to highlight issues like male suicide on International Men’s Day after 200 academics, students and alumni signed a letter saying the phrase “gender equality is for everyone” is misogynistic. Clearly there’s a lot of resistance to men’s issues, so if we care about male suicide we have to work extra hard to push the issue into the public realm.

  3. When we talk, men talk On the occasions male suicide is discussed, you can guarantee that someone will blame the problem on men not talking. What is rarely discussed - and needs to be talked about more - is research that suggests men are more likely to seek help with a problem when it is socially acceptable to do so. This means that the more people talk about helping suicidal men to get help, the more socially acceptable it becomes and the more likely men are to get help. So talk about suicide, you might just save someone’s life! Men often require a problem to be socially acceptable before they seek help Men often require a problem to be socially acceptable before they seek help CREDIT: ALAMY

  4. Because men like Rob and Dave want us to As a result of speaking out publicly about male suicide, I’m often contacted with those affected by the issue. Last week a man I’ll call Robert told me he’d sat on the railway tracks on many occasions in recent years, waiting for the Carlisle to Newcastle train to put him out of his misery. The same day, I was contacted by a man called Dave (not his real name) who said: “Your hard work on these issues warms my heart. My best mate from the age of four committed suicide four years ago as he couldn’t go on and no-one really got it or him. I still think of him everyday”. Be in no doubt: when more people speak out about this issue, it can make a difference for those at risk, those who’ve survived and those who are left behind, just to know that people care.

  5. Because suicide isn’t a crime There is tendency to still talk about “committing” suicide, because it was once a crime to take your own life. This isn’t the case anymore. Feeling suicidal isn’t illegal, it’s nothing to be ashamed of and it’s a dark place from where many men return. Initiatives like James Withey’s Recovery Letters shows that it is possible for men to find a way back from the edge of suicide.

  6. Because we’re too tolerant of violence against men and boys Men are the main victims of both men’s violence and women’s violence and yet while we have strategies to end violence against women and girls, there are no such strategies in place to tackle violence against men and boys. How is this linked to suicide? When I was researching for my book, Equality For Men, I discovered that male victims of many different forms of violence and bullying are at greater risk of suicide.

  7. Because some men are at a higher risk of suicide Research also tells us that men who have been in care, are homeless, are imprisoned and were excluded from school are all at greater risk of suicide. So it’s important we speak out for those who are at most risk while never forgetting that men at every level of society are more likely to kill themselves than women from the same background.

  8. Because men expect to protect and provide
    While family roles are more fluid than ever, most men still expect (or are expected) to take on the role of protector and provider. Climbing up the greasy poll can help boost your resilience. Men from the poorest backgrounds are ten times more likely to kill themselves than men living in the most affluent areas. But no-one is invincible, researchers found that more than 1,000 people in the UK killed themselves because of the economic impact of the last recession and 84pc of them were men. This could well be because unemployed men are two to three times more likely to kill themselves.

  9. Because fathers matter Involved fathers can make a huge difference to their child’s wellbeing and the absence of a father from a boy’s life can increase the risk of suicide. Researchers in Sweden found that boys whose parents had separated were more than twice as likely to attempt suicide. It’s not good news for dads either, with researchers finding that separated men are between six and ten times more likely than separated women to die from suicide. So we need to talk more about how we reduce the impact of family separation on men and boys mental health and wellbeing.

  10. Because Tulisa and Mistajam are talking about male suicide So how do we start taking more about male suicide? Well, the suicide prevention charity, CALM UK, is launching a new social media campaign on International Men’s Day, to get more people talking about male suicide. So if you want to make a big difference with as little effort as possible, then why not join Tulisa, Jonny Benjamin and Mistajam and sign up to CALM’s #BiggerIssues campaign at www.biggerissues.co.uk.


[–][deleted] 101 points101 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]1Claude_Reborn 22 points23 points  (2 children)

Thus re enforcing that no one gives a fuck about male suffering. Once you accept that as a man, you'll learn to look after yourself.

No one else will.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Just a few days ago I read about the terrorist bombing of the Russian passenger plane. The article literally said how "women and children" were killed in the attack. It is absolutely mind boggling how media can brush over the other 50% of the victims and nobody cares or seems to notice.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can't wait to be a Meninist and then claim the phrase "Women and Children" is "Problematic" I could get a job as a "journalist"

[–]AlphaAccountant 25 points26 points  (10 children)

Your facts are triggering me. Please stop, my hamster can't take it anymore.

In the meantime, what is everyone's opinion of living in Russia? It seems like it's the last slightly "Occidental" place where men can be men without having to apologize.

[–]TheMGhandi 12 points13 points  (0 children)

It seems like it's the last slightly "Occidental" place where men can be men without having to apologize.

You mean a place where men can be obnoxious to all 5 senses with it being socially acceptable? Enjoy yourself there.

[–]growingstronk 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I am an a first generation American born from immigrants from Soviet Russia (technically from Ukraine, but lets not open that can of worms).

My sister took a trip to Russia and stayed over there for a while. Blonde-haired, blue-eyed, but has a slight American accent when she speaks her Russian. Passport checks everywhere. Obscenely high bargaining prices everywhere. They dont want us

[–]Mofocheez 3 points4 points  (7 children)

In the meantime, what is everyone's opinion of living in Russia? It seems like it's the last slightly "Occidental" place where men can be men without having to apologize.

It seems pretty RP but only if you're Russian.

Minorities need Russia, and we will not grant them special privileges, or try to change our laws to fit their desires, no matter how loud they yell 'discrimination'. We will not tolerate disrespect of our Russian culture. We had better learn from the suicides of America, England, Holland and France, if we are to survive as a nation.

He implies that immigrants to Russia will be respected if they act Russian, but in my mind I see it as saying "Russia is for Russians, everyone else can fuck off."

Unfortunately for the West (US, UK, etc) I think Russia's RP nature is bad. The public opinion of Russia (especially Putin) is terrible, mostly due to slanted media and our frequent oppositions in global matters. But mostly anything Russia says or does is seen as evil in the West.

Spend five seconds on facebook and you'll see at least one post slamming some Russian policy, or maybe even that exact speech I posted. It polarizes the Western public to lean the other way and accept every refugee, in order for the US as a whole to be good world citizens (in contrast to the evil dictatorship of Soviet Russia).

You may idolize Russia (Chad Thundercock) from afar, but you will never have his respect nor will you be a part of his friend group. He does not need you nor does he want you, because he has an abundance of friends who have been there from the beginning.

[–]Primemale 1 point2 points  (6 children)

He was not just referring to minority races, but also other ''discriminated'' minorities, such as women, homosexuals, and all the other progressive movements.

And you seem to imply that it is bad of Russia to want to protect it's own heritage, traditions, culture, and ultimately their civilisation, as Putin mentions particularly in light of what is going on in other western countries, he does not want the same fate. In real terms what this means is not pandering to the Jews and leftists who have less (but still significant) power in Russia.

[–]Mofocheez 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Bad of Russia? Not at all. It's highly beneficial to Russia, and Russia's stance is highly inline with TRP values.

But the poster isn't Russian (I'm assuming). And Russia doesn't really care about outsiders (as they shouldn't).

In the West, Russia is villianized. Which means that Russia's idealogies are villianized. If Russia continues to lean more RP (like refusing to cave to political correctness as you have identified), by nature of the West opposing Russia, the West will lean the opposite way: more politically correct, more polarized towards world equality and all that jazz.

What Russia is doing is good for Russia, but it is not good for the RP man living in the West, because Russia's actions make America more liberal and more likely to pander to minorities.

And as a function of Russia not pandering to outsiders, it's not as real of a possibility for Western men who want that style of government to immigrate.. because the reality is that you are not Russian and never will be Russian. Just like transgenders will never be women, and never fully get the benefits a woman has.

[–]Primemale 0 points1 point  (1 child)

> And as a function of Russia not pandering to outsiders, it's not as real of a possibility for Western men who want that style of government to immigrate

Agreed, but even if it was I don't necessarily think that is the answer, men packing up and leaving their own country,women etc. In order to get some traditional Russian pussy,(and more traditional gender roles) there are plenty of traditional women in the west, you just have to make them want to be traditional, (by you being a man) as the OP of this comment says ''where men can be men without having to apologise'' as much as I appreciate his sentiment, your geographical situation and local laws shouldn't really hinder your masculinity to any significant degree, lift, be dominant and a leader in your relationships, make money and be independent, Job fucking done.

[–]Mofocheez 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But at that point, you've completely detached it from the whole Russian sentiment and we're just full circle back to trp ideals.

My original point was that only Russians can enjoy Russia, and it's basically senseless to even consider it as being a trp haven unless you're Russian.

You're spot on, though. We just have to take control of our space and be the leader in our immediate area, no matter the challenges we may face from it. No daydreaming about other fantasy lands will help.

[–]ChadThundercockII 0 points1 point  (2 children)

but also other ''discriminated'' minorities, such as women

Is this real life ? You are calling women a minority. And discriminated against in a practically western country !

[–]Primemale 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I didn't mean to refer to them as a minority, I meant he was implying about ''discriminated'' groups, although really the groups that really are shouting discrimination are in fact minorities, and I think you misunderstood me, I am not in any way stating that I believe women to be discriminated against, but was referring to to what Putin was addressing.

[–]ChadThundercockII 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Indeed, I misunderstood your wording.

[–]DeShot 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is exactly what is so fucked up about awareness campaigns when there are ulterior motives. Hypothetically of course

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I thought Asian men were more inclined to suicide?

[–]RandomRealityChick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where did you find that cishet males are a bigger suicide risk group than non-cishet males?

Same for white males.

[–]DrJamesRusselMD 62 points62 points [recovered]

As much as I agree unfortunately you're asking people to go against the grain of human nature.

As valid as all of these stats and concerns are: males are expected to be independently self reliant, strong and without external support. Physical, emotional or psychological.

This is deeply rooted into our very biology. Couple that with the third wave feminism currently gripping the civilized world and nothing is going to change.

For men struggling with depression, few if any social options, and a world which does not care about them - and never will - there is only one solution.

Improve yourself. Invest in yourself. You will be alone and it will be hard work and effort. But in the end you will have made yourself into the best thing a human can be; you'll have fulfilled the biological expectation of an independent, successful and resourceful male.

No one is coming. No one will help you. Only you can help yourself but you can succeed. Your worth can only ever be determined by your own efforts. The sooner you realize that and start putting in the work, the sooner you will see the benefits of it. And those benefits will be all yours to enjoy and use as you see fit.

[–]tbpd 18 points19 points  (17 children)

The individualistic approach we preach in TRP is great for personal growth and development, but I really wish men's rights would move to a separate sub.

MRM doesn't belong here, and I'll try to argue why.

TRP naturally overlooks the importance of strength in numbers. I guarantee you that history would not be as grand had clever, strong men not forged alliances to push through their agenda from thought to reality. TRP does what it does best by embracing the individual as the key to enlightenment; I am practicing TRP. The supporters of the MRM would do well to remember the differences between the individual and the group, and act accordingly; we are pushing for men's rights.

No social movement can ever be rooted in the individual. It must be us championing our cause, or the momentum is lost, thus reducing the movement to a mindset.

[–]DrJamesRusselMD 8 points8 points [recovered]

100% agree. But why can't it be both? Strong, self made individuals coming together to pool their strengths.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRed_August 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Agreed. The confluence of many people's interests causes this type of change. No other way for that class of change. When people push in the same direction, even if its not for the same reason, things can move. Of course, on TRP its understandable that some individuals refrain from supporting such broader issues because many here are barely treading water. Many don't have the mindshare or bandwidth right now to think beyond their immediate needs, whatever these may be.

Ultimately however, one should not associate the MRA personae with men's causes. Yeah, most sound like losers. Most look like they have nothing better to do. Most look like they are on the losing side of life and that's probably why they whine like women. All that is true. We associate these causes with them because those are the people that we see, read and hear about. Lest we also not forget that this narrative is also encouraged by the feminine imperative. Of course it would be. They shame, remember? That's all they can do. Men act on reality directly, women act on reality through men.

I have very little in common with these "men's rights" men besides being a man yet my interests do conflate with some of theirs. Why wouldn't I want, for example, the removal of police procedures painting me as an aggressor in a domestic disturbance de facto? That's nonsense and it should be ripped out -- in fact I'd want to see the original proponents of such procedures hanging off street lampposts. Should the fact that we have fedora basement dwellers organising men's causes stop me from pursuing my interests? Fuck no.

Of course I have a hierarchy of interests and needs with the top ones obviously tending to be more immediate or personal, or close to my sphere of influence. However, we all would benefit cultivating a shift in attitudes towards this. We don't need to whine like women, of course not. Get that out of all your minds. Nothing is stopping you to call it out however. To support change in direct ways. To enact change if you're in a position of power to do so. Call out the bullshit and stand your ground. Send the bitches to their corner to stand like 5 year olds, figuratively or literally. All this nonsense is the result of years of chipping away, of nagging. The culture is beta.

If it makes this all sound any cooler by re-framing, imagine the CEO clearing his desk: he will deal with issues and opportunities high and low. High level strategy on a 20 year plan to sign-off, a brief on a product manufacturing site location selection to read, the choice of fucking carpet sample for his new office and his fucking speech for his manufacturers association blaming Obama for some shit or another -- bigger longer-term broader shit. The point is that you can multitask. So be the CEO in your life and deal with your gym needing to add a squat rack, Candy for leaving her fucking hoopy earrings behind again and, whatever attitude you can crush or action you can take that pushes men's shit back where it should be. Don't let it own you, just shove it along as you go.

[–]tbpd 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not saying one can't be both RP and support the MRM, it's just that the two subjects are so far apart that I'd prefer them being in separate subs. Applying RP teachings to the MRM won't yield any worthwhile results, in contrast to the individual.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 3 points4 points  (0 children)

TRP was born in the MRM is one good reason it belongs here. What you think TRP is would still be called PUA if that sub didnt implode, oddly enough, due to insular thinking. Much of what TRP preaches would not, in fact, be a part of the body of knowledge here without the MRM. Source: I remember how hard it was to convince PUAs the Law really was that fucked up.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 0 points1 point  (4 children)

TRP naturally overlooks the importance of strength in numbers.

Men are outnumbered by women, and alphas are vastly outnumbered by women and betas.

[–]tbpd 1 point2 points  (3 children)

That is a valid concern, but nothing more. A country can be at war, but not every person is a fighter, and not all fighters are any good. Don't stand defeated before drawing the sword. I don't think the MRM has seen any real battles yet. One of the reasons might just be that only a few individuals has spoken up on behalf of it so far, but only as individuals.

There is no International Movement for the Protection of Male Rights, so every speaker is an individual going against the current of society. That is ludicrous. No war can be won that way. That's my point about strength in numbers; when a speaker makes a point it has to echo throughout the entire movement, boosting the volume until it's heard by the people hiding in the back of the crowd.

Very few people who stand opposed the MRM can produce any sound argument, since the cause is just, thus making it very possible for the movement to be successful. We need our competent speakers, our facts and figures, and a large enough legion of supporters to break through the silencing agenda in Western contemporary society. None of this is unachievable.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 8 points9 points  (2 children)

This is an extremely important concern, because:

  • Women have the majority vote
  • Women don't give a fuck about men

If you think this is a concern "but nothing more", you really have no idea where the West is heading. Men imprisoned on a woman's say so, positive discrimination for women rolling into negative discrimination against men, women claiming they don't earn enough and need a pay raise - this is happening now and it's getting worse.

None of this is unachievable.

I see TRP as the beginning, the vanguard. Long may we continue to be strong.

[–]tbpd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

TRP could indeed be the final wake-up call for many misguided men. I hope so, at least. But I'll stick to my guns regarding the separation of TRP and the MRM, since I find them so different.

[–]Ailer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And it isn't important because Women don't (or won't) commit violence to protect themselves. They depend on men to do it. Rome had plenty of women when it fell. And the more men are shuttled to the edges of society, the less safe that society will be... heck, those neglected men may strike back. If even the paltry number of MGTOW guys decided "fuck it, violence" western society would crumble in the face of the action. You can already see it happening with the response to terrorist actions. Women should be damn happy men like that are deciding to simply not participate in society rather then do what men in their position have traditional done.

[–]Pornography_saves_li -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

TRP was born in the MRM is one good reason it belongs here. What you think TRP is would still be called PUA if that sub didnt implode, oddly enough, due to insular thinking. Much of what TRP preaches would not, in fact, be a part of the body of knowledge here without the MRM. Source: I remember how hard it was to convince PUAs the Law really was that fucked up.

[–]Pornography_saves_li -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

TRP was born in the MRM is one good reason it belongs here. What you think TRP is would still be called PUA if that sub didnt implode, oddly enough, due to insular thinking. Much of what TRP preaches would not, in fact, be a part of the body of knowledge here without the MRM. Source: I remember how hard it was to convince PUAs the Law really was that fucked up.

[–]tbpd 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Not all friendships are meant to last forever. I think TRP will find it hard to stay on message with the parallel MRM narrative. They are just too different.

[–]Pornography_saves_li 0 points1 point  (1 child)

No they arent. Your focus is just too narrow.

[–]narazz 0 points1 point  (0 children)

for normal people i think self improvement is solid advice. For a lot of others like myself that have failed all their life it's just false hope and further to fall down from.

for the complete failures i think teh best advice i can give is just accept where youre at in life and find some hobbies and other ways to enjoy it. otherwise you're just going to end up wasting 5 years of your life trying to improve thigns and realize you were better off 5 years ago if you just stayed at home and took up drawing or playing video games over that other shit you wasted your time on!

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

asking people to go against the grain of human nature.

As valid as all of these stats and concerns are: males are expected to be independently self reliant, strong and without external support. Physical, emotional or psychological.

that's true, but it's also natural for women to be obedient and follow a man's lead, something modern feminism has "taught" them to be "offended" by.

[–]redkick 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Improve yourself. Invest in yourself. You will be alone and it will be hard work and effort.

No one is coming. No one will help you.

In the same vein, why should I personally care whether some shmuck wants to kill himself? It's a hard world, if you can't handle it you don't belong here.

[–]dj10show 9 points10 points  (2 children)

This is where having friends that are literally closer than family can be a big help. I hit my rock bottom a few years ago, and having them be willing to go out for a meal or grab a drink was better than any shrink.

[–]dracolius 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Lack of access to a gun during a certain period of several months when I contemplated my demise daily is the only reason I'm still here. This was before internet as we know it, so my halfassed research on the booze & pills combo I tried led to an incomplete result. Yeah, beta. Didn't use the term then, but I knew what I was. It was part of why I was done with all this shit.

Having a buddy who was willing to stick with me in a major way until I got back on my feet is the biggest factor that kept me from trying again. By the time I was able to get a gun, I no longer felt the compulsion to use it on myself. I credit this to him. We've both been all over the country separately since then (and in several other countries), but he's one of only a very small few I still keep in touch with from those days.

[–]Endorsed ContributorFLFTW16 36 points37 points  (5 children)

Male suicides will always be higher than women's. Always. Men are nature's experimental sex. That means more geniuses and saints, and more morons and criminally insane psychos. More resilient warriors and yet also more fragile depressed self-harmers. Mental health will always be a bit of a gamble for males. The way our species is set up is that females are naturally desired for their sex and baby-making ability, and men are, on average, denied access until they prove themselves individually worthy.

Some men will never be worthy. They can improve themselves, learn to cope, or die. After years and years of social and sexual deprivation, and elevated rates of mental illness in comparison to women, some guys will kill themselves. Women will always be incapable of caring about the general problem of male suicide, even while they care about the specific men in their lives.

It's a good campaign and worthy of attention. However, it seems to me that people tend to believe that all things should be equal. They can't be and shouldn't. The species has got on just fine for around 200,000 years with the set up of men being the more disposable sex. No hashtag or twitter campaign for social awareness will change the way our species' deck is stacked. So, by all mean participate and help a bro in need out. But be mindful that things are the way they are.

[–]growingstronk 6 points7 points  (0 children)

No one is arguing that it's tougher being male and that many won't make it, but there should at least be some resources men can access to help them other than "take this pill to stop depression," or women telling you to talk about your feelings and then subsequently ignoring you.

Once again saying men don't need help because thats just how men are born to be is ficking bullshit. Would you leave male toddlers out in the wild? Even Spartans would do that to teenagers at a time where they think they are ready, and they were the most brutal society out there

[–]interestedplayer 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I agree wtih you. Im just curious, how do you then explain that women show the overwhelming majority of mental health issues: they are dominatingly more likely to be bipolar, borderline, depressed etc.

whats your take on this?

[–]RedPillProphet 4 points5 points  (0 children)

women show the overwhelming majority of mental health issues

I would question this underlying assumption. Says who? Number of women that reach out to get psychological help? Surely you can see how SEVERELY skewed the results of that would be.

As a complete annecdote, in my experience (and in my age group, 20s) women are in much much healthier state of mind than men are. Just because they bitch more doesn't mean they have more issues. Dig deeper and you would be lucky to find even one guy who isn't completely broken and psychologically dysfunctional compared to the average girl.

Life is hard when a sea of validation, intimacy, acceptance and opportunities just for having a vagina aren't available at any time... and dealing with that harsh reality understandably takes its toll on men.

[–]tallwheel 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Women dominate the Cluster-B disorders. I believe that cluster B is basically just extreme female brain, just as autism is extreme male brain.

And why more females depressed? Simply because more women seek help for depression. Men often force it all inward and don't go to shrinks. If they don't seek help, then they don't get counted among the stats.

[–]BowlOfCandy 21 points22 points  (0 children)

World Toilet Day trumps Men's rights.

[–]Rougepellet 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I doubt society as a whole will ever give that much of a flying fuck about men. It's against human nature. Best we can do is to give a fuck about yourself and those close to you.

[–]BlueFreedom420 2 points3 points  (1 child)

The reason why male suicide is ignored is because the underlying liberal/progressive/marxist idea is that men kill themselves because they succumbed to toxic male culture. They don't think its because men are asked to be disposable members of society -basically they think men kill themselves because they are stupid men.

While female suicide is due to the evil of patriarchy. So they will not talk about male suicide but offer their cancerous brand of culture as a cure for every ill ( that includes male suicide)

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Woah woah woah, somebody lock this thread up. Too much talk about male suicide.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 6 points7 points  (0 children)

voted... "gender equality is for everyone” is misogynistic

And this is just how misandristic our society has become. Men talking about male equality is somehow hating women. Women have managed to get everyone confused between "sexist", "misogynistic", and "wimmin feel bad about it". These are now conflated to all be exactly the same thing.

There is no equality, there is only the battle of the sexes. And we're losing, guys.

And talking of international men's day, here's the guardian:

http://www.thegua<del this bit>rdian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/19/international-mens-day-women-sexist

Using International Men's Day to promote international women's day and accuse men of whining, missing the fucking point that most men wouldn't even know it's International Men's Day because it's so poorly promoted, and going on to point out that women are the real victims here, because men are paid more and have constant power and privilege.

I think a lot of men like to pretend they have it better than women to feel superior over them. They shun the victim mentality and ignore how badly they got it. At one level - fair play to them, this is a good response to the feminism shit test. On the other hand, let's speak some fucking truth for once about the realities of life for men.

[–]mightybe 3 points4 points  (0 children)

As someone who experiences wanting to commit suicide, I think this is a very important issue. It is very important to talk about, especially male suicide since they get affected the most. I'm surprised and sad that this discussion was pushed out of Men's International day. It would be great to see an organized group of men's rights activists pursue these issues publicly. I would support the cause. I think a lot of the problem is that we live in individualistic society, a lot of people are alone. People who can't find their way are ignored, because they're alone and there's nowhere obvious to turn. This can't be changed easily, since most people prefer this kind of society.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I think male suicide is a symptom of human nature and the current lack of natural selection taking place in the western world.

Time was, way back when in tribal times, about one in three men reproduced. The figures vary but a small fraction of men lived long enough and were alpha enough to beget children.

If a man was too weak, too stupid, too whatever to live, he died. There were a million ways to die that didn't involve shooting yourself or jumping in front of a bus. You could starve, you could fall off a rock face, you could be mauled by an animal, etc.

My point is the weak died.

Now pretty much everyone survives whether they really want to or not. The default no effort situation is "live" whereas the default no effort position used to be "die".

[–]sir_wankalot_here 9 points10 points  (18 children)

One of the few options that men have to solve their problems, and they want to take that away from them. Given the circumstances Robin Williams was in, he didn't really have many other options open.

Solution is that beta males should get lots of free pills from the public healthcare system so that way they can get doped all up and be good docile little slaves.

Do they plan to create jobs for these men ? Do they plan to enable them to get a GF ? If the answer is no, then talk is pretty much a waste of time ☺

[–]1Snivellious 11 points12 points  (4 children)

This is one of those things that sounds like a joke until you stop and consider it. Antidepressants and mental health counseling for men are, in a real way, attempts to not solve the problem.

Certainly, there are men who are mentally ill to a serious degree, and will only be treated with mental health care. Some depression and suicide ideation, plus virtually all psychopathy and schizophrenia (which, interestingly, is an almost exclusively male disorder).

There are a lot more men, though, who are 'mentally ill' as a rational reaction to their lives. Depression is only disordered thinking when your life doesn't suck. If you're lonely and underemployed and haven't had sex in years, and are maybe paying crazy alimony on the side, then feeling good about your life is disordered thinking.

Male suicide is a hard-to-ignore symptom of society as usual. If suicide rates keep rising, it gives ammunition to people who want to discuss these issues. The alternatives are to either reshape the things that make men depressed (fat chance) or medicate men until the suicide numbers are low and people stop noticing the problem.

[–]benzostruggle 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Guilty as charged, depressed man here (working on redeeming myself but slippery slope).

I have to agree that for the average depressed guy meds are just there to make it easier and hope it goes away; doesn't solve the problem which is too multifaceted to be delt with head-on.

It is only now that I realize that my environment or rather the social circles I hang around may be a big part of the problem.

Also I just realized that I was wasting too much energy on things that didn't matter (bending over backwards, for women especially, for instance) and not spending enough on my wellbeing and building upon stuff I am good at (thanks TRP).

[–]1Snivellious 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Hey man, I've been there. Like, antidepressants and everything, full scene. It doesn't make you unimportant, it doesn't mean things can't change, or anything like that.

There are some people in the comments here going "suicide is how male failures remove themselves" - it's bullshit. Your book isn't closed until you die, and as long as you live there's always room to change the ending.

I spent quite a while on antidepressants, and they did make me feel better. This has real value, because you can't change shit if you're lying in bed all day, but it's a tool instead of an answer. I eventually realized (ironically, with the help and advice of a woman) that I was in a terrible place. I hated what I was doing with my life, I hated bending over backwards for that woman, I quietly hated most of my friends for being textbook examples of unsuccessful men.

Credit to TRP for showing me some alternatives, like putting myself ahead of partners or even friends. Like lifting and running as a way to cut through some of the depression. Like accepting pain as a fact of life, but not as something I had to give in to. Like enjoying my hobbies for their own sake, to build a life, and fuck everyone else.

I'm not 'fixed'. I'm not sure I ever will be. Depression is a real thing, and I'm inclined to it. I consider it a good day if the thought of suicide doesn't intrude on my mind at one point or another. Medication can help, therapy can help, exercise and diet and lifestyle changes can help. None of it can rewire your mind, at least not fast. Just remember - most depressive episodes are ~6 months, certainly >1 year. Even if you're nonfunctional for a while, you can get back to the territory where you're just unhappy, and capable of making changes.

This shit sucks, and our society doesn't help us with it. We get told that we should pop pills instead of changing anything, that our unhappy lives are immutable or deserved. Still though. You can live a good life, be happy and productive, have relationships or hookups or whatever it is you're after, all without giving in.

As an aside, how are you doing with the whole 'benzo struggle' thing? They have a nasty tendency to cause depression with long term use, but I don't know your circumstances.

That was a rant, but ah well. Hit me up if you're ever feeling really down and want to talk, I've been there too.

[–]benzostruggle 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well as far as benzos go I am still stuck in the same place.

I think though my sleep has improved with a mixture of agomelatine (a melatonin-analog sold as an antidepressant in my country) and some light exposure therapy.

However, the social awkwardness and background depression is still there. Working on it on my own because therapy costs too much here. I am slowly making progress though.

[–]sir_wankalot_here 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn't mean to make light of your issue, I am just stating the facts as I see them. The post by the vet sums it up, PTSD is a complicated issue, the powers to be do not give a shit about the issue, solution is to throw the guy a bunch of pills and hope he disappears.

Your story kind of illustrates my point, it was you who ended up fixing your own problem.

Now let's say you where a single mom wwoth two kids each with a different father, there would be all sorts of programs out there to help you.

That is just the reality of things.

[–]PeopleHateThisGuy 6 points7 points  (11 children)

Girlfriends and jobs might not be the only issues here.

[–]DrJamesRusselMD 11 points11 points [recovered]

No but let's face it they are the primary issues.

Men are driven to succeed and breed. We live in a day and age where doing so has become a more difficult and rarified accomplishment.

If we could somehow address these issues the rest would be relatively small potatoes.

[–]PeopleHateThisGuy 3 points4 points  (9 children)

I don't think PTSD from decade long wars is small potatoes, but I see your point

[–]Mofocheez 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Vet here, so when I make these next comments, they're out of understanding rather than lack of empathy or whatever.

Suicide from PTSD is a complicated issue.

1) A small % might be using it to run away from their demons. Maybe they had to shoot some kids overseas. Maybe they lost a close buddy because they fucked up. I think the public thinks this is the largest group but it's really not a huge factor.

2) They leave the service, have trouble integrating into society, face poverty and isolation. Sebastian Junger's TED talk "Why veterans miss war" hits on this a little bit. But more importantly I'm concerned about the mindset of these individuals. They spent as little as 3 or as many as 20+ years depending on the government and gave their life to the man. As it turns out, when you're done with the man, the man is done with you. They're in poverty because they never learned how to budget. They were overpaid for the jobs which don't have translatable skills in civilian sector, their lifestyle creeped up and they are really confused why they can't make $40-60k at home only working 30 hrs/week like they did when they were in the mil. These individuals bought the ideology that was fed into them and they thought the government loved them back -- turns out, it didn't, they were just useful pawns in the meantime.

3) Same thing as we see throughout this forum: the wife takes the house, kids, and money, and runs. Pair this with point #2 (abandoned by the government, especially when the wife hits the legal system), and the positive memories from the service ("remember when life was better, I had troops at my side, I had a mission, and I was doing cool guy shit in theater?") and you get a guy that's left with absolutely nothing in his life.

Judging from the hundreds of hours of suicide awareness briefs I've been through, the number of Soldiers who have killed themselves and the issues they faced, the state of the average junior enlisted soldier's mindset, and the very problems we face as men, it is clear to me that veteran suicide doesn't stem from PTSD as much as it stems from post-combat emptiness due to everyone in their life abandoning them because they're washed up.

I sit here and say this knowing that I'm going back on active duty soon and will remain for longer than a decade. But I know that Uncle Sam doesn't give a shit about me, and it's up to ME to make it beneficial for ME. Nobody will be holding my hand when I exit the service, and I won't be entitled to shit.

tl;dr:The concept is a lot easier if you relate the situation to red pill: soldiers orbit Uncle Sam the same way that thirsty betas orbit HB5. When the HB5 finally fucks over the beta orbiter (even though they were in love!!1), the beta orbiter is more likely to puss out and kill himself.

[–]tallwheel 4 points5 points  (1 child)

veteran suicide doesn't stem from PTSD as much as it stems from post-combat emptiness due to everyone in their life abandoning them because they're washed up.

In that light, maybe the previous commenter was right that all they really need is jobs and GFs. That would likely solve the above problems for those vets.

[–]Mofocheez 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, and they would also benefit from better realization of the situation. But doesn't that apply to the average BP anyway? The military's suicide awareness program is lip service to a point. We care about soldiers who are suicidal while on duty (hazard to self and others, especially in a combat theater) but beyond that (especially after they are separated) it is ultimately the weak ones who pull the trigger while the narrative implies they're all fucked up in the head from combat and shit. But moreso it's the integration that messes people up.

For me personally, I'm going back in the military to pay for some higher education. A lot of people might consider that situation along the lines of "The military cares about me, they're paying for my school" which is why they end up fucked in the head when their needs are ignored later. Instead, I can take an objective approach, and realize that by sending me to school, the military is actually benefiting more than I am... I am the product being sold. So, like I said above, it's up to me to reap the most benefits I can rather than acting like I won the prize. When Uncle Sam no longer sees my usefulness, I'll sit back and think about how I sucked my opportunities dry and got every bit I could out of it, knowing I was never loved to begin with. They just loved me for the time being.

If you indoctrinated every troop with RP idealogy, the military would be a much more resilient place... but also would be a terrible institution with too many chiefs and not enough Indians. Instead, the military indoctrinates them to be blindless followers who know nothing about how the world works.

And that, my friend, is working as intended.

The leaders are not actually concerned with veteran suicide.

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

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[–]PeopleHateThisGuy 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Only if wars were the result of joblessness and involuntary abstinence, but I have no reason to think those correlate.

[–]DeathDealer8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wars aren't started because of jobs and girlfriends. They're started to make money and cover up things that are going on elsewhere. It's a huge attention ploy and guess what? It sure as hell gets it.

[–]DrJamesRusselMD -1 points-1 points [recovered]

What percentage of males experience it? Non trivial sure but nowhere near a majority. Probably not even double digits percentage of the populace.

[–]PeopleHateThisGuy 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Percentage of the populace or percentage of those that commit suicide? Much more significant in the latter

[–]Bartand 25 points26 points  (15 children)

I don't think the jews feminazi will approve your idea.

[–][deleted] -3 points-3 points

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[–]danjs 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Fuck Bartand, I thought maybe he had a logical point to make but he's just bigot.

As per his history he wants to "sanitize the banks of the zionists"

Just another antisemitic and self proclaimed schizoid

Edit: nope, he actually calls himself a schizoid. Saying "your nasty people" blows your cover dude.

And there's nothing wrong with being anti-Semitic just as much as there's nothing wrong with being racist like your history suggests. "Ugly niggers" really?

Your father was must have raised you to blame things on other people for being born with different genes. But we're animals and we can let our stripes divide us or recognize how stupid that is.

[–]bananadictatorship -3 points-3 points [recovered]

Bigots make logical points all the time. There is nothing wrong with being a bigot, or being an anti-semite. Stop throwing around whining babyish accusations like "antisemitic" and then trying to smear your opponent with nonsense like "schizoid." You know who is schizoid? The Jewish men like Polanski and Fogle who practiced the Judaic art of child rape.

Stop being butthurt that your nasty people are being criticized. Its just as necessary as criticizing Muslim and Christian group behavior. Stop being such a pussy bitch about it. Everyone is fair game, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, etc. You don't get a special out because muh 6 gorillion.

Bartand's point is unsophisticated, not wrong. Socialism and feminism are the result of Jewish academics who despised Christian culture and dominance.

[–]danjs 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Then he can use point like that instead of going "hah Jews!! "Your nasty people"? Get the fuck out man.

Edward Bellamy, Charles Kingsley, and Frederixk Dickinson Maurice were all Christian. Karl Marx was Jewish. Mazdak was Zoroastrian. They all inspired socialism

Just because Jewish American Princesses like to get women's studies degrees doesn't mean that Jewish people are "nasty".

[–]danjs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He calls himself a schizoid. Both of your intentions are clear here.

[–]Bartand 5 points6 points  (8 children)

Maybe you should educate yourself before writing stupidities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_feminists

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

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[–]Bartand -4 points-3 points  (6 children)

Nope, I am saying that it is mostly founded and run by jews. Google A.I.P.A.C and other Zionist evil agenda.

[–][deleted] 5 points5 points

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[–]Bartand -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

I am against the Zionist jew not all jews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kp8t0fz3cE

[–]jace81 -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

I just want to point out that im against all jews.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I just want to point out I am a literal nazi and cant wait for cloning technology to be perfected so I can mix hitler and stegosaurus dna into the perfect blitzkrieging animal.

[–]jace81 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol only worth doing if hitter ends up with blonde hair and blue eyes. Anyone with brown hair and non blue eyes... You aren't even white.

[–]CptDefB -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

"the Jews", don't give a damn about Jewish people.

[–]aang1818 1 point2 points  (3 children)

I am sure this opinion will be unpopular, but I dont see anything wrong with suicide. I nearly myself once when I thought I was flunking out of college..... And rest assured I would have gone through with it before accepting that dishonor, just as soon as I had figured out how to settle my financial debts with my family. Depending on who you are and the life you live suicide may be prefferable to loving, and it is selfish to ask you to live a dishonored, unfulfilling life of the person doesnt want too. Add that to the common problems many men face such as being unable to fulfill their need (not want, NEED) for sex and I can fully understand not wanting to live on this planet anymore.

Shot, I read just the other day that up to 15% of American men are virgins at 30.... And thats lower than countries like Japan, where the number is 25%. Couple that with the government preventing us from paying to have our very real needs met (and by extentiin forcing us to become.mentally ill, unhappy, and just overall unsatisfied) and I respect anyone man enough to end his own suffering. I know I couldnt live like that.

All that said, its something to seriously think about.... Not really a spur the moment thing you should rush into. But sometimes it is the best logical solution.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 3 points4 points  (2 children)

What IS wrong... is that so many men are driven to suicide. That means something's wrong with society.

[–]aang1818 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Spot on. And as callous as it may sound, maybe suicides are a way to draw attention to that?

I mean it's been proven again and again long term abstinence is extremely detrimental to anyones health, but especially a mans. Yet here we are in this 80/20 society where we are approaching (or in some areas exceeding) a quarter of men at 30 being virgins and yet prostotution is still illegal. It really is a wonder suicide rates arent higher.

Likeeise men are continued to be expected to be providers while colleges continue to admit women with lower grades and prospects in the name of "adfermative action". And as we all know, "Women wont date down".

Something has gotta give, and clearly for these men it already has. It is uncortunate but I wonder if even that is enough to wake up this matriarchial society..... Honestly I doubt it.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You gotta admit though... affirmative action (demanded by women) causing women to run out of options due to hypergamy (the nature of women) is kinda hilarious.

[–]UyhAEqbnp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

this is a good opportunity to act pious and victimized while aggressively shoving said evidence in everyone's face

apolitical marches and mass petitions for shaming would be prudent

[–]1raceAround126 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I view today's ostracizing of men as the same as socialism. It's a great idea, until it gets to the point where it all goes wrong.

Socialism: it's a great system that is until you run out of somebody elses' money.

The same is true with men. Men are the breadwinners of the world. We pay the most into the western economic systems; we come up with most of the world's initiatives, products and solutions; we support most of the world.

So we are the most open to abuse. We are a target, people will paint every man as an enemy at will.

The problem comes, what happens when you run out of men?

So firstly, is it happening? Well yes. Firstly we all know the facts surrounding male suicide and how it seems to be seen as comedic. Secondly, men today are not raised to be men but utter pussies. The males of the species coming up today are by in large ineffectual, effeminate pussies who will not stand up for themselves and sedate themselves with a steady diet of video games, pizza and porn with fat women in it.

The world has already stemmed the flow of men coming into the world. But that's no problem. Females can just survive off the state once they have had a few illegitimate kids.

But women are also complaining that there are less and less men to settle down with. Most of these same women are having kids with utter dossers, those who are incapable of even paying their own way through life. Good guy Daddy state.

We are fast heading to a world where we are running out of men. Some Countries are even resorting to the idea of importing men practically because their own ones are checked out of marriage so far to the point that many family lines will die this generation (Denmark, looking at you).

While importing men to procreate with is a stop gap solution, when the world does run out of men, it will be too late.

Manhating, like socialism, it's all well and good until you run out of men.

[–]ioncloud9 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If this doesnt tell you that men are disposable in our society, nothing will.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Many have said this and I agree with this; funding mental healthcare and ad campaigns are not enough. We need to change things as a culture/world. People need to accept that men and boys can be vulnerable. We need to start listening to them when they want to talk about problems. We often turn the other way about men's health/well-being. Treating men as a disposable sex is one of the biggest things in the way. It is also not just about suicide, but also how we treat men in general. We rush to females when they suffer, we do not for males.

[–]NeoreactionSafe -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

.

There are no Red Pill suicides.

Once you realize that it's very clear what is going on...

.

[–]joh2141 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Hmm interesting. I dont see this happening because suicide is an issue beyond gender. There are people who treat suicidal people like victims of society or those who consider them cowards.

They might emphasize focus more on LGBT community because they are the norm underdog or the ones most oppressed. I never heard anyone treat suicide any less just because it was a man. Also I went to high school with Tyler Clementi. Gay or not, people who had no idea he existed or people who treated him like shit would talk about how good a human being he was. Suicide is thought of so badly that people just being fake. I fail to see how anyone can scoff at men suicide rates and expect to get taken seriously like that Jess.

[–]tallwheel 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The problem with taking the widely accepted 'all suicides are bad' approach is that there seem to be unique reasons why men commit suicide more, and no one seems to want to examine those reasons.

[–]drummmmergeorge -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

I'm sticking with the dogma of men need to toughen up, in times of war, women stay home to care for the children, and the men are sent for death.