Red Pill ExampleThe Golden Rule: How To Not Get Fucked In Business (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood


A short story over business to business relations. If you are an entrepreneur or working towards being self employed, you need to read this post.


Let's say I had two friends, Tim and Kevin that both started separate businesses. Kevin goes and finds a single customer that will generate $1,000,000 in sales for the year. Tim goes out and find 20 customers, but each customer only generates about $50,000 dollars a year in sales.

Well let’s say I was Kevin's one customer.

I call Kevin up and say, ”Sup bro, I got an order for you, i’ll send in the Purchase order for $100,000.” Kevin’s ecstatic, holy shit he’s never seen so much money before in his life. He just started this business and is so excited that he landed such a lucrative contract. He spent the last 4 years going through college to get his business degree, he got married to a lovely girl, they had a kid so she decides to be a stay at home mom at least till he’s old enough for school. He’s been slaving away in corporate America for the past 8 years to pay for college and save up enough to finally start his own business. He’s got this shit on lock. He’s got the work ethic to make this deal happen and he’s going to crush it.

He takes out a mortgage on his home to front the startup loan from the bank. He heads out and buys all the materials needed to complete the job. It end up costing him $60,000 grand to complete the job, 40k isn’t a bad profile margin. From the moment he buys his material from his vendors, he has 30 days to pay them back. That’s the default pay period when business to business transaction happen, usually called Net 30.

Kevin thinks he might be able to get a bit more money out of the work though. He contacts me and tells me he underestimated the quote and it’s going to be an extra 30k to complete. Kevin assumes I’ll understand as this is his first time and I’ve been mentoring him through his whole upstart. I let him know that’s fine and we renew the purchase order for $130,000.

Now he’s going to make 70k profit! He doesn’t waste any time. From day 1 of him picking up materials he is off putting in the time, labor, sweat and tears to get this done. He’s going to make a killing.

Kevin and I meet at a trade show last year through mutual interest and I saw the passion in his eyes to get shit done. I knew he had the hustle, he just need a push in the right direction and some incentive to get started. In this case, $1 million in sales a year is what I offered him.

Let's talk about me a little. I’m in my 50’s, been the president of a division of a billion dollar a year corporation for about 10 years now. Our division alone put out $230 million a year in sales. Our parent company that owns us reaches 1.6 billion a year. Kevin’s 1 million dollar account doesn’t even merit a second glance in the accounting office.

Back to Kevin. He finishes up his work. Spent all his material and the job is done. At 25 days since his first material purchase, he still has just under a week to pay back his vendor at the Net 30. Not to worry, vendors know the game, sometimes it takes a bit to get the money before the last tier supplier get’s his check. He learned all this in business school.

He calls up the main office and gives my secratary the news. ”Great Mr Redwood is on vacation in the rockies for the week! When he gets back I’ll have him check out the work and you’ll be seeing the check in the mail within a few business days.” Kevin’s ecstatic, his first big deal. He’s about to bank 70k profit in a month.

Week goes by and nothing. He calls but doesn’t reach me. The secretary tells him that I’ll be back by tomorrow to inspect the work first hand. Great, he’s had to dig into his savings a bit to pacify the vendor till the check comes in. No worries though, Kevin and I became good friends during this last year and he still has money back in the bank.

Two weeks go by and nothing, He can’t reach me as i never gave him my private cell. He calls the main office, secretary tells him that I checked it out, work was awesome and the check is in the mail. Great, he had to spend some more savings on some emergency medical issue with his kid but now he’s about to bank 70k. He’s dreaming about what this job will be like at the end of the year. The vacation he’s going to be able to treat his family too. Hell, imagine what this will be like in 2 or 3 years. Kevin is literally on cloud 9. The past 8 years has brought him to this moment.

3 weeks, nothing. He’s starting to worry. He’s out almost 60 days and his vendor is starting to send notices. He calls but nothing.

4 weeks past Net 30. same run around.

5 weeks out. still no check.

6 weeks, same.

7 weeks, same.

8, same.

9 weeks. Kevin files for bankruptcy. His vendors take him to court for the money he owes. All his assets, house, everything, seized by the banks. His wife can’t stand him. How could she marry such a loser. How could this have happened? Hell, this is illegal right?

It is absolutely, one hundred percent, positively illegal to do what i just did to Kevin. But good luck trying to take my $230 million dollar a year company to court while you are in the middle of filing for bankruptcy and have no other income source, Kevin.

If you think this story is bullshit or this would never happen in modern day America, I can be assured that you’ve never ran a business longer than a few years. Or, you at least have the privilege of not working in my line of work. I’m 25, I’ve been doing what i do for 10 years, I’ve seen it happen twice. My father has seen it happen more time than he can count and so have many others that I have been mentored by.

My father sat me down one day after he got a call from a company and he said, "Clint, one day you are going to get a call from a customer or new company. They are going to offer you more money than you've ever seen before in your life. It will be like holding a winning lottery ticket in your hand. All the shit you can do with that amount of money will flash before you. It might be equal to or even dwarf our entire sales for the year. Everything in you will tell you to take that deal.

Don't ever take that deal."

A large corporation with tons of power goes out and finds some chump that’s eager and driven, they offer him a deal he can’t refuse, only to burn him, not pay, and there is shit he can do about it. They hold such an immense amount of power and influence over you that you can not possibly take them to court. They will drown you in legal bullshit and it will cost you more than you can imagine.

Now, that 100k, that’s nothing. That’s like a week of sales for most small business. As in 5-50 employee sized businesses. I use 100k because to most ordinary people, that’s a lot of money. Oh, and that extra 30k Kevin thought he was getting out of me. Ha, whatever Kevin wants to hear is what Kevin will hear. I’m Kevin’s #1 sycophant, I’m the ”Yes” man.

In business, the more charming and the more enthusiastic a person is, the more you should be skeptical of them. It’s sometimes hard to identify a con man vs just some guy that’s really passionate/charismatic, that takes time and experience. But a good businessman weighs his options and never makes split decisions. A con man will tell you everything you want to hear without a second thought. If you want to know if you are getting conned, present them a serious issue that needs to be discussed, in this case a 30k quoting mistake. if it’s answered in a minute or less, you’ve got problems.

Conmen talk from an emotionally drive narrative not logic. They will play off your vibes and how you react, not through logic or planned out thoughts. They will have a basic plan for the con, as in me offering a million for enticing Kevin. But their delivery is always rooted in emotional manipulation and getting you to shut down your logical thought process. If you feel emotion, happiness, sadness, anything when making a business deal. Stop, don't make a decision, calm yourself, leave if need be, hell take a week off if you have to. You must be grounded and level when you make giant decisions. Meditate if need be.

The company I saw get burned, they bought 1 million dollars in equipment and material to get a job from a very, VERY reputable corporation. You are probably imagining some slimball president of some shady corporation that could be morally and ethically relatable to Skynet if it was ran by Saul Goodman from Breaking Bad.

You’d be dead wrong.

This company that burnt them was a company every single one of you knows of. Hell, half of you probably own an appliance by them. I’ll just repeat that again though if it didn’t set in though. They spent $1,000,000 and didn’t get a dime, filed for bankruptcy a few months later. By a company that pretty much all of you know and trust to make good products.

Oh, and that company that got burnt for 1 million? Ya, that wasn’t some dude like Kevin. That was a company that was in business since the 80’s.

“So what went wrong? Fuck, this is hella illegal!” Doesn’t matter what is legal or illegal, it’s what you can get away with. You think laws stop people from doing things? Fuck no, we break laws all the time, the only thing that stops people fucking one another over is if they can get away with it or not.

Bullpill advice would be, take them to court, try to get your money out of them. It will be alright. We believe in you and we are here for you.(random people on the internet that he probably tried to consolidate with or advice some friend gave him).

I’ll tell you right now that advice is worth less than the air and calories it took to say it. here’s the redpill advice. Kevin, you fucked up. You let your emotions and the alluring of dollar signs sway your decision making skills. You saw $1,000,000 written out and said, ”Holy shit, One million dollars, sign me up.” You let emotion, lust and greed trump logic and planning. You saw a big shinny number, from a company you know and love, that everyone knows and loves, that’s been around forever and you took that as merit for them to be a trustworthy client. Instead of sitting down and looking ahead of what they could do to you if you accept their deal. You thought you were playing blackjack when they were playing chess. You made one move and thought you won the game and didn’t think anything past that. You broke the #1 golden rule of business.

Never have all your eggs in one basket

Let's take a look back at Tim. I bet you forgot about Tim. In the amount of time Kevin went from 25k in the bank and owning a home to being homeless, Tim cleared 5 orders of 20k each, cost him 15k in materials each, resulting in 25k profit and 100K sales for the month. Good job Tim.

Why? because none of Tim’s customers have power over him. If I tried to pull the shit that I pulled on Kevin, Tim can fall back onto his other accounts to support his business and life style, and have the money to take me to court in the process.

Tim, can’t be fucked with, because Tim has abundance.

Tim is in A Position of Fuck You

Lessons learned

This is just one rule of business that I’ve learned through the years being mentored by some truly alpha men. I never correlated it with abundance mentality till TRP though. But it is the #1 rule of business and it’s one they constantly drill into my head. The shit these men have shared with me and taught me is invaluable and stuff you can’t find in textbooks. It’s only learned through experience. Textbooks will teach you what to do if everyone plays by the rules. It won’t teach you a damn thing when it comes to playing the game with people that break the rules.

There is a lot of benefits to the golden rule than foreseeing getting fucked over. For instance it’s not always some dickbag trying to fuck you. Maybe one of your customers goes out of business just due to the economy. Trust me, they won’t tell you they are going under, a lot of times you won’t even know, their purchase orders will just stop coming in or they just go radio silent. If they were 25% of your business, you’ve got problems. You may not go under but you will be laying employees off or taking a pay cut yourself.

At our company we tried to make sure none of our customers gets above 10% of our sales for the year. 5-7% is the sweet zone. If you can manage that, no customer can fuck with you. you should track these number religiously, because trust me, your customers know how much money they pay you a year. And they will use that number to throw their weight around. If you don’t know your % then you don’t know what kind of negotiating power you have. Basic Sun Tzu teachings, ”Know yourself and know your enemy.”

If rule # 1 is never have all your eggs in one basket, then #2 is never let your customer know how many baskets you have or how big their basket is(also a Sun Tzu teaching). Customers will straight up ask you sometimes, ”How much of our work is your business.” If they are above 10%, your answer to that question is always, ”I have no idea off the top of my head, I’d have to speak with my accountant on that.”. They can’t use what they don’t know against you. If it’s below 10%, you tell them exactly what their % is so they know they can’t fuck with you.

Basic misdirection and power play.

If a customer is over 25% of your business, you should be sweating bullets every day, you should be losing sleep and pulling your fucking hair out. You should not be eating till you secure another account and drop that 25% to 10%. At my company we have dynamic employees, we don’t have dedicated sales reps as sometimes sales are not what we need. When customers hit 15-20%, sales reps head out the door looking for new work or we contact current customers for more work to level the playing field. Growing horizontally is always better than vertically. This is also why consumer goods are great to get into, then you literally have thousands of customers that don’t even equate to 0.1% of your sales. No one owns you and no one can bully you.

If a customer knows they are 35%+ of your work, I don't give a shit who's name is on the sign out front. I don't care who or how many people own shares of your company. If a company is 35%+ of your total work, they now own your business. They just may or may not know it yet. This the most important thing I can ever teach you about business. You become a slave to your customer the moment you are not in a position of Fuck You.

This post is the first of two. The second is called, "The Dark Rule: How To Fuck Someone Over In Business". I strongly suggest you read it as it contrasts the opposite side of the moral spectrum. You can find it in my post history or search in the sidebar.

I’ve been wanting to make post on business for a while now but find it hard to separate and distance myself without revealing too much personal information. I grew up in a family business since i was a kid and I’ve read some post on askTRP that sparked me to write from my experiences. I usually write based off of a comment or question i come across so if you have any questions or topics you’d be interested in me covering, feel free to ask away. I think the next post will be on navigating the business world as a kid coming into a family business. There is a lot of do’s and don’t, how to manage co workers, conflict resolution, workplace efficiency, the shift you have from going to employee to management level, etc.


It's came to light in the comment section that there are many other pitfalls that could have been avoided by Kevin if he took more preventative measures. While I am aware of them, I felt adding them would detract from the main point of the topic. I solely wanted to revolve the article around diversification and horizontal growth. I strong recommend you read the entirety of the comment section as there is a tremendous amount of advice in it, If not more, than the main article.

[–]Do not send modmail to my personal inboxCrazyHorseInvincible[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (5 children)

Would the people reporting this please learn the difference between "lie" and "obvious hypothetical"?

Thank you.

[–]HS-Thompson 112 points113 points  (12 children)

There is a lot of truth to this, but as someone who as started and run several businesses, and currently gets a large chunk of my billing from F100 companies, I think it's at least somewhat overblown.

There are many things Kevin could have done to minimize his exposure to this situation besides just being scared of a big order:

1) He could have ensured his business was properly capitalized. If he had secured sufficient credit with sufficiently long payment terms (even if he personally guaranteed it) he would have had enough runway to chase you for the money.

2) He could have insisted on at least some payment up front, enough to cover out of pocket expenses, and walked if/when your firm balked. In my experience this is the number one simplest thing a small business can do. The people who won't pay deposits are the people who will stiff you.

3) He could have redlined the contract before signing it. If it had onerous anti-lien clauses and whatnot he could have insisted they be struck in the absence of a deposit. If you were using a purpose-built entity (as is common in the CRE business) he could have insisted on joint and several liability with the parent company, or asked for a "good guy clause" of some sort.

4) He could have worked out better relationships with his suppliers and negotiated slow-pay for his costs as part of his procurement process.

5) He could have played legal hardball when you made it clear you wouldn't be paying on time. You paint this picture of a massive all-powerful corporate entity that you can't sue, which in my experience doesn't match reality at all. You can and should use litigation and the threat of litigation to get results. I have gone up against companies that are way more well-funded than me without many resources and it's totally workable, just requires different tactics. Force the issue with an OSC hearing and a TRO prohibiting them from using the work product until the case concludes. File an ex-parte trespass to chattels to reclaim any materials delivered, since you still have title to anything they haven't paid for. File against out of state business executives personally and subpoena them for depositions. Are their wives or children part of the business? Great, file and serve them too as codefendants, let them show up and ask for removal. And so on.

Those are just off the top of my head. This post is decent advice but to me all it's saying is just something like "don't go into business unless you know what you're doing and understand risks" or maybe just "don't risk your entire financial status on a contract if you don't already have a decent lawyer on your team."

Most of us who run businesses learn lessons the hard way from painful experience, and maybe a great mentor if we're lucky. I'm not sure if there are any shortcuts.

Furthermore, you present a very one-sided view of taking on business risk. Many if not most entrepreneurs have at least one story of being completely underfunded and exposed to ruin during their early years. Sure you can avoid taking on the project at all, but getting business is hard, and growing a business is hard. It's entirely possible that by avoiding all situations where you have one big whale of a customer you'll just never get off the ground and also fail.

At the end of the day good business people build good businesses. Managing risk and having contingency plans is part of being a good businessman.

[–]BradPill 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Finally some sense here - I commented just now, worded differently - yours being more laid out and specific - well done.

[–]JustClickingButtons 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I don't get the love for this thread. If one is dumb enough to fall for the plotline of horrible bosses 2, they deserve it imo.

[–]BradPill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Business for dummies" .... 1.058 votes.... WTF LOL

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

I am very aware of the other preventative measures Kevin could have taken. However, it would have detracted from the main point of diversification and horizontal growth. I didn't want the article to go off into a tangent or throw too much information at the reader as there is already a ton of info in both articles.

I've edited the main article to tell readers to go through the comment section as there is a great deal of information on how to prevent the shortcomings of Kevin.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You forgot to add a tl;dr which would have summarized the whole situation.

Avoid getting into a situation where one contract going sour can screw you.

Works as well in business as it does with women.

[–]netherlanddwarf 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The post is a great way of teaching would be business owners to watch their ass no matter what. I was naive and I still sometimes catch myself wanting to believe in the good of people, it's just not okay to give goodwill and put your own ass on the line when it comes to business.

[–]_TheRP 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Yeah I agree. This is easily avoided.

First of all - make sure you understand the nature of legal agreements in the business you are working. If you don't, it's worth the $500-$2000 (depends on the agreement, of course) to have an attorney look over agreements and give you advice on negotiating changes. That in and of itself will prevent pretty much everything in the above from happening.

Second, if you need to buy a lot of capital equipment or supplies up front to start work, you should always be negotiating to get some portion of the money up front. Ex: I won't start work without 40% in my hand. Period.

Third, companies hate lawsuits. No major company is going to fight you over a few hundred grand when you've got a valid agreement, they're going to either flat pay it or start negotiating in good faith. They aren't going to blow a pile of money on lawyers with the risk of still losing on top of a potential public shit storm for fucking over Joe-The-Plummer for a few hundred grand. They're going to write checks pretty fucking quick.

[–]notaserialkiller 47 points47 points [recovered]

There‘s a chinese saying about how to succeed at business:
first receive money, then spend money
receive more than you spend.

[–]Dopebear 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Something so benign and logical yet many seem to make a purposeful effort to go against.

[–]happyhorse_g 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Almost as blunt as the Japanese motto of 'do it now, do it right away'. And that's for life, not just business.

[–][deleted] 191 points192 points  (90 children)

As the lawyer who shows up, that the big boys don't expect. I can tell you the OP is giving you the truth. Big companies will rape you like a prison bitch because they know most people will lay down and take it. That no law firm will step up to take them on (even when there is an arbitration clause). And that the people fucked over won't show up and righteously murder the scum who fucked them over, killing the people who fucked them over, their friends, their family, and everyone else in the business. So they have nothing to fear. No one is going to rig a pipe bomb to their toilet so that when they flush sodium powder mealed with fine powder magnesium is then dumped into the water tank to detonate a ten pound black powder charge in a waterproof case filled with screws. No one is going to rig simple mousetrap bombs to their wheels so when they pull out of their drive way, a thirty pound black charge bomb mixed with twenty pounds of red phosphorus goes off underneath the driver's side.

If you go into business, get a good lawyer to act as your admin and give you a heads up on how not to get fucked. How to demand installment payments on work instead of doing all the work and awaiting pay. How to file a lien on a property you did work on even though there is a lien waiver clause in the contract (question of first material breach). And how not to do work based on verbal requests that the company will later deny having asked even though there are emails for the requests, some paid invoices for the work, and all kind of evidence showing the work was requested and done in violation of the Master Services Agreement which the contractor will hold up and say you shouldn't get paid because you violated.

But people think they can do things cheap, skip the lawyers, and then rationalize their fiscal rape. And they won't kill those who fucked them. Thus they get what they deserve.

[–]HS-Thompson 21 points22 points  (3 children)

That no law firm will step up to take them on

As someone who has been a party to commercial litigation multiple times this doesn't ring true to me at all.

I literally can't imagine a situation where you have a company on a clear breach of contract/payment case and can't find at least a half-decent lawyer to threaten and/or file against them for a couple grand.

Do you guys live in towns with like a thousand people in them or something where there are three lawyers and they are all recused out? Have you watched Erin Brockvich too many times?

[–]BleachedWhale 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Agreed. This whole post is masturbatory..

[–]HS-Thompson 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Indeed. And I know a lot of lawyers, I find it incredibly unlikely that there's an attorney thorough enough to pass the bar and succeed in commercial contracts practice but stupid enough to claim they are a lawyer in a public forum while implying they would consider using explosives to target their adversaries, with specific details.

But it's a big world out there I guess.

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (3 children)

Before I was running an agency, I was a freelancer.

The only company that ever fucked me over for payments was also the largest company I'd ever worked with - a business with over $300M in annual sales

Yet my $7k worth of freelance work was apparently not worth paying for them

[–]rakov 15 points16 points  (1 child)

That wasn't head of company though who decided to fuck you over, it wasn't the one owning these 300M$ - it was some small hired employee who probably isn't responsible for shit, and who decided it's just more simple to not pay.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is the more accurate explanation than my OP. The employee might run it by the owner or a higher up manager but a lot of times huge corporate CEO don't handle it unless it is a huge contract compared to their total sales for the year.

I keep the OP simple and relatable to the CEO since adding in a bunch of middle management or payable/receivable employees wouldn't add anything to the story other than more words to read.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I would have asked you if suing them would hurt your business. If you said no, I would have asked to see what communications you had between you and the company (in email and letter form). Then I would have had you write letters based on drafts of my own letting them know you were owed money and to dispute it if they felt differently. Like most big boys, they'd ignore you and set themselves up for an account stated cause of action. Then I'd file a suit in small claims and ask for one third of the money owed, paid up front.

[–]Libertarian-Party 27 points28 points  (4 children)

Lol that revenge part was very specific.

Pure violence gets you in the sights of the authorities. It's better to play the victim while employing third parties to plant incriminating evidence of let's say, rape or drug trafficking. Prison sentences usually come up with fines, and while all eyes are on the guy that conned you, calmly report separately that he also took your money. BOOM prosecutors will eat this shit up and you'll probably get a hefty compensation sum from the parent company, while the actual businessman gets 25 years in pound-me-in-the-ass prison plus loses all his savings and has to go to real prison instead of "white collar tennis court happy prison."

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

plant incriminating evidence of let's say, rape or drug trafficking

Child porn is way easier, as long as you can access their computer (even at home!)

[–]MuleJuiceMcQuaid 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Did Jared owe you Subway coupons or something?

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 51 points52 points  (7 children)

But people think they can do things cheap

This is probably the third rule I was taught. Never buy cheap and never buy the most expensive.

The most expensive is usually some bullshit name your paying for like a colt revolver when any revolver for half the price does the exact same thing.

The other side is never buy cheap. should be self explanatory.

Always analyze any reviews or records of who you are working with or purchasing then find the middle ground guy. He has the quality and history to back his product but hasn't reached the renown to charge out the ass for some name like Colt.

[–]I_HaveAHat 8 points9 points  (5 children)

What field of work are you in exactly?

[–]billcosbyeatsbabies 6 points7 points  (1 child)

the question we're all dying to know.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I have worked in a field before.

[–]CryptoManbeard 3 points4 points  (2 children)

It's probably GE since they do appliances but also a million other things.

[–]espero 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Love the colt reference :D

[–]TRPhd 22 points23 points  (46 children)

No one is going to rig a pipe bomb to their toilet so that when they flush sodium powder mealed with fine powder magnesium is then dumped into the water tank to detonate a ten pound black powder charge in a waterproof case filled with screws. No one is going to rig simple mousetrap bombs to their wheels so when they pull out of their drive way, a thirty pound black charge bomb mixed with twenty pounds of red phosphorus goes off underneath the driver's side.

Bombs are complicated and get instant attention from Federal authorities. A simple shotgun using a sabot and rifled bullet can be fired from concealment at range and is just as effective but more difficult to trace. Of course murdering someone after they screwed one over doesn't fix anything, so it's a dumb/psycho thing to do, but if one were to do it then it would be better to reduce one's risk.

[–]babybopp 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Explain sabot and rifled bullet please? Why would it be difficult to trace?

[–]TRPhd 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Sabot is French for "shoe", and what it does is hold the projectile (in this case, a shotgun slug) while the projectile travels down the barrel. The sabot in a rifled shotgun barrel takes the rifling of the bore and uses it to create a spin in the slug. Spinning projectiles are more accurate, and in this case allows similar accuracy with a shotgun slug that one would achieve with a hunting rifle (albeit at a shorter range).


The nice thing about a slug is that it is most likely a one-shot kill on pretty much anything smaller than a moose. The other nice thing for the potential sniper of two-legged deer is that when the two-legged-deer with badges and guns of their own come looking, they can't necessarily match the barrel marks on the slug to the barrel of the shooter -- because the slug didn't touch the barrel, only the sabot did.

Now, there is an issue with chokes, but buying replacement chokes and changing them out is very common. Heck, with a Mossberg 500 you can replace the entire barrel pretty easily, so if the 2-leg-deer-with-badges come looking for a rifle-bore shotgun at your house, well, all you ever bought was this smoothbore one you use for skeet. Someone else you don't know may have at one time purchased a rifled Mossberg barrel for cash from a stranger, and someone else might have bought some sabot slugs at a gun show along with some other ammunition and a knife or two, but that's got nothing to do with you. Even if the 2-leg-badge-types find a rifled barrel and some sabot slugs at the bottom of a nearby river, well, how's that connected to you? No-how, that's how.

Without a confession, the chances of a prosecution drop to almost nothing. Without linking a murder weapon they become infinitesimal. It's much easier to get away with murder than most Americans think. It's much harder, however, to live with being a murderer than most Americans think.

[–][deleted] 32 points33 points  (42 children)

If we were more vindictive as a society, we would treat each better. Would you fuck someone over if there was a good chance they'd dart you with a tranquilizer, take you out to the woods, and when you come to, force you to eat your cock and balls and then proceed to sodomize you with a sharpened wood pole, not killing you but leaving you in a state where your lower intestine is wrecked and you'll eventually die of bleeding out or sepsis. And they just leave you to die in the woods, cold, alone, and in horrible pain.

The Romans were psychos, the ancient Greeks were psychos, the ancient Egyptians were psychos. Sometimes you have to brutally murder some fucks to get everyone to behave. Personally I don't like bombs, if I'm going to kill someone I want them to suffer good and long so it can be videotaped and shown to the world.

Wouldn't it have been awesome to see Bernie Madoff forced to eat his own genitals?

[–]tonyfaulkner 75 points76 points  (6 children)

This just in: We told you TRP was filled with psychopaths. Misogynist Davidkpa tells how they plan on murdering feminists.

[–]kellykebab 27 points28 points  (12 children)

What a pipe dream. There is zero protection for a small business man taking out the head of some institution. He might pull it off, but given the obvious motive, he's an easy target for the law. And what's stopping the family with greater power, money, and influence from going after this murderer extra-legally? Why would they ruin his livelihood for no reason but fail to respond to him murdering one of theirs?

Vendetta cultures were probably tirelessly violent, not more peaceful. You're arguing based on wishful, if bizarre, thinking, not from reason.

[–]darkrood 5 points6 points  (6 children)

You know, there are two types of people you have to watch out for:

  1. Powerful men who have all the resources to protect himself.

  2. Desperate men who have nothing to worth protecting.

One guy with a gun with enough training can easily take out police chief's daughter in America. If he just goes on a killing spree quietly, he can gun down more enemies in a day.

Imagine if you are a powerful man with so many different enemies, that when your cronies ask: "Boss, who would do this to you?"

Your mind comes up more suspects than your fingers and toes can count on.

[–]Artisan_Tofurky 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Aww that's a twisted, yet comforting thought.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You'll just cheapen life. The power plays will stay the same.

[–]RP15 5 points6 points  (0 children)

You have to be kidding. This would be different if people were all clear thinking, virtuous people. But they're not. Would you want this to occur because you slighted someone? Would you want this to be a common reaction to, say, a microaggression? How about to a crime you didn't commit? Or just because they were bored, a la Clockwork Orange?

Everyone has bloodlust. Watch football and join a boxing gym. Don't pollute TRP with your psychotic bullshit.

[–]TRPhd 6 points7 points  (4 children)

If we were more vindictive as a society, we would treat each better.

I agree. In Viking times, crossing someone else resulted in a blood feud which could and did exterminate entire families. There was a lot more incentive to be fair in your dealings and reasonable in arbitration.

As an individual, however, it is not feasible vis-a-vis risk vs. reward to punish someone after-the-fact. If blowing them to tiny bits motivates their replacement to make you whole, then perhaps, but if you are already bankrupt then there's not much that will fix that issue post facto, no matter how much personal satisfaction it might provide.

[–]Sdom1 21 points22 points  (3 children)

I agree. In Viking times, crossing someone else resulted in a blood feud which could and did exterminate entire families.

The evidence is in a hundred times on this - cultures of blood honor and vengeance are weak and not places you want to live. It's incredibly counterproductive.

The system we have now is better by far, but would benefit from some changes and rooting out of corruption.

[–]TRPhd 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Better is a subjective term. Based on increased productivity, certainly we are more productive. But how much more productive would we be, or could we be, if the ones in power feared the ones they rule? It's academic of course, which might as well be a synonym for unknowable. But it is interesting to contemplate.

[–]waylandertheslayer 3 points4 points  (1 child)

But how much more productive would we be, or could we be, if the ones in power feared the ones they rule?

It's more likely to be the other way around. Companies have more power than individuals because they can afford better lawyers - due to more money, manpower etc. Now if there is also the option of one of you killing the other, who do you think will win? It's very romantic (not in the relationship sense) to imagine the small-time guy picking up a shotgun and going Die Hard on a faceless corporation, but that's hardly realistic.

Limiting conflict to the legal and economic arena is good for individuals.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

You know, this sound like a marketing pitch for ISIS

[–]Testoste_RON 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I love this place. People who think like me. If people know that when/if they fuck you over bad enough, that them or someone they love might possibly die a horrible, slow protracted painful death; then most people will think twice before fucking others over.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (7 children)

This is also why North America and Europe are kowtowing to Muslims - they know what will happen if they don't.

[–]untitled_redditor 2 points3 points  (5 children)

Really? I think it's a matter of public opinion. If the civilized world decided to get "uncivilized" for a few weeks the "Muslims" would be history. We're fighting from a disadvantage because we won't consider mass murder. But if things ever get bad enough, they'll be gone in days or weeks.

[–]ezone2kil 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Aww come on...some of us Muslims hang out here too...and we don't need to scuttle to Europe abandoning our pathetic country for economic opportunities then acting like sex-starved animals in the new country either...

Equating Muslims to Arabs, I'm not surprised people want to wipe all Muslims out though.

[–]untitled_redditor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I put Muslims in quotes because I don't really mean to refer to Muslims. I have good friends, basically family, who are Muslim (from Senegal).

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Well, that's just wonderful. Another reason why I want to get out of your "civilized world" before some neo-nazi retard murders me because I have a Muslim sounding name.

[–]untitled_redditor 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't want to do that, and I'm sure we won't. I'm just saying we could. Muslims are mostdef safe and welcome on Reddit.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm actually an atheist named Ahmad. But hey, sometimes I'm mistaken for a Mexican so that's cool lol.

[–]remyseven 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Reminds me of Phil Demers who is fighting MarineLand. He got threatened, intimidated, lost his job, and is currently trying to fight them in court but MarineLand keeps stalling. Illegally stalling, because they know Demers can't afford to have a lawyer for years on top of years, let alone a good one to combat their billion dollar industry. You can hear more at Joe Rogan's podcast

[–]kellykebab 5 points6 points  (0 children)

And they won't kill those who fucked them. Thus they get what they deserve.

Interesting perspective there.

[–]Sdom1 7 points8 points  (1 child)

And thank God people don't do that. It sounds satisfying at first glance, but you don't want to live in a society with no non-lethal dispute resolution mechanisms.

What would fix a lot of this bullshit pretty much instantly would be to start prosecuting executives for fraud when things like this are done. Even if you don't get that many convictions, just the serious, legitimate threat of prosecution is enough to make most white collar sociopaths shit their pants.

[–]rakov 5 points6 points  (0 children)

...or they would just never get caught and bribe legal institutuions, while also framing innocent people who got in their way.

[–]eddiae 2 points3 points  (1 child)

the big boys 100% expect you, you just show up on 1% of the clients they fuck over, so you're a very affordable loss,there is no karma and you dont make them regret anything, dont think for one minute that they lose sleep over you...

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The lawyers for them bitch and whine like I do. But you may be right. What they settle for or on occasion lose at arbitration, may be an entirely acceptable cost of doing business.

I really don't care, I get paid, I get paid a lot. I'm happy so far.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

"And that the people fucked over won't show up and righteously murder the scum who fucked them over, killing the people who fucked them over, their friends, their family, and everyone else in the business."

To bad vendettas like this are illegal then again the big boys can hire lots of goons too, so its for the best. Your advice about lawyering up is sound.

[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (3 children)

Legal, illegal, it's about what you can get away with. That's how the big boys rationalize it. Good, bad, right, wrong, fuck that noise. It's a matter of whether or not you get caught.

Morality is for the small people. To keep them under control and limped dicked for their prison rape pounding.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yup until the "little" guys find a leader (usually a member of a fallen elite/alpha* or aspiring elite/alpha* that hit the glass ceiling) and form a "gang" and comes looking for payback. That gang can take many forms from a street gang, union, family clan, all the way to revolutionary movements and terror organizations. At some point people will step outside the law if pushed too far. Business people are their own worst enemies.

We both know morality, laws, courts and the police are there to protect the powerful and give the illusion of fairness to the masses. IF things go to far though the system crashes. Given my training, I can handle a system crash of no cops, courts and vendetta. I under no illusions that vendetta system would suck for all. I hope the illusion lasts a few more years.


*alpha in the general sense not PUA/TRP sense. Fallen elite/elites with a glass ceiling: See Castro, Che, Mussolini in his early days, Stalin, Lenin, Any of the US revolutionary war heroes (Washington, Handcock, Adams, Hamilton etc...) certainly hit the glass ceiling within English/Colonial society and were pissed about it. Almost all of them could be considered Alpha and dangerous as hell.

[–]chokobomaster 55 points56 points  (1 child)

Now this is a very good post, not like the other posts recently. Thank you for this, good read.

Now let me go out there and be like Tim.

[–]I_HATE_GOLD_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

seriously good fucking post. He got gold and i aint even mad about it.

[–]CryptoManbeard 23 points24 points  (4 children)

Funny because I thought this was a metaphor for dating. Some hot girl who's a 9 wants in a relationship with you. You kowtow to her every request because she's so amazing. She has power over you, she can fuck you over.

Meanwhile if you have a pool of women that you can pick and choose from, she doesn't have that power. She pulls some shit and she's done.

[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 12 points13 points  (0 children)

She will fuck you over in this scenario. It's in her nature. There's also no social consequence for doing it (as a female).

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

I think it's mandatory for guys to fuck and stay strictly FWB for at least 20 girls before they ever start a LTR.

You literally are oblivious to how girls are, what you want or what you need till you have real life experience with them. No amount of TRP reading will prepare you for LTR, it's learned through experience, not textbooks.

[–]FAPSLOCK 19 points20 points  (1 child)

i think this is the plot of Horrible Bosses 2

[–]Endorsed ContributorRed_August 38 points39 points  (2 children)

Cash flow is king especially for SMEs as they are extremely fragile. The reality however is that although the entrepreneur is keenly aware of this, the diversification of your revenue sources is very much part of the initial challenge of growing a business up in volume.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 29 points30 points  (1 child)

the best business plan is one you can start on the side of your main income source. Kevin and his wife fucked up by throwing all their trust in the new start up.

You can still take on the risk of entrepreneurship without exposing yourself to the degree that Kevin did. It's a risk the non the less, but it can be minimized with good planning.

[–]drqxx 52 points53 points  (15 children)

Excellent post. As entrepreneur that's about to celebrate 12 years in the black I can attest to your statement. It is dog eat dog world. The free market will eat your lunch if you let it. A good policy for me has been.

Payments are due when services are rendered.

I know it depends on what you sale. In my industry I just demanded or walk away. No net 30 for anyone not even the fucking pope.

Fuck you pay me!

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 52 points53 points  (14 children)

Coders, webdesign, IT guys are the best at getting payment.

Oh, you didn't pay me for my work? Aaaannnnddd now your website is gone.

[–]drqxx 41 points42 points  (0 children)

Didn't want to pay for this IT work now you have all your information encrypted and I seem to be the only one with a key. Ill take my 5000 in cash and I'll give the Private key to you new IT guy.

Oh he paid. The look on his face. Bwhahahahha

[–]wanderer779 21 points21 points [recovered]

I used to know a guy who ran an electrical contracting business. If people didn't pay he'd get them on the phone and have the following conversation:

"where's my money?" "excuse excuse excuse." to electrician standing nearby, said so customer can overhear: "go to xx main street and rip out all the conduit" "ok, ok, we'll send a check today"

[–]BradPill 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Unlawful - he will have to pay/repair all the damage that comes with it. The moment he installs it, he can not remove it. If his client knows that, he can sue his pants off (well, maybe not in the US - but in many other countries).

[–]wanderer779 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I have no idea if it was legal or not but it was a well-known tactic of his. I don't know if he was bluffing or if so if anyone ever tried to call it. Could be a thing where you lose the battle and win the war. You have to pay damages, but everyone else in town hears about it and knows you don't fuck around.

I doubt he would have done it if it was a GC he had a good relationship with. I also doubt most of the more respected and established guys pulled stuff like this. I think most contractors, although they will try to cut corners here and there, don't get in the habit of just stiffing their subs or else they'd eventually end up working with shit outfits and doing shitty work which is going to kill you in the long run.

[–]blacwidonsfw 35 points36 points  (7 children)

I made a stock algorithm site for a guy for pretty cheap and he never paid me. I think he was just going to pass it off as his creation to whatever gods he served. I was naive and in college so I expected payment after I completed the work.

After he clearly wasn't going to pay I committed some code to the repo that fucked up the results. Hope he lost a lot of money using those shit algorithms.

[–]stemgang 3 points4 points  (6 children)

Let's assume you are savvy enough that this confession cannot be traced back to you IRL.

[–]blacwidonsfw 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Let's assume I would care if he found me in irl or if I would tell him to fuck off in person

[–]rpkarma 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Liability would be hard to prove considering contracts rely on consideration given, of which none was.

[–]the99percent1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But honestly though, there aren't many million dollar IT Contracts floating around. So it's penny stocks you are talking about.

[–][deleted] 111 points112 points  (11 children)

This is an INSANELY good post. I myself have no knowledge of running a business and it's an aim: But these are some valuable lessons. Making this post to say it's a fucking good read and as a reminder for myself in the future.

[–]sundaybrunch11 9 points10 points  (0 children)

yeah totally. I could have been business raped with something like this. OP probably saved me a shit ton of money and pain.

[–]fearandloath8 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Does anyone know any books about business that are like this (not the Art of War or 48 Laws of Power since I've read those)? Maybe they are mixed in with life lessons (from relationships like the Laws of Power to finance and investing) or are just great business books about stuff you don't learn in a textbook etc.

EDIT: a word.

[–]ITS_JUST_A_WANK_BRO 15 points16 points  (0 children)

How to Get Rich by Felix Dennis. He is worth 400Mil and talks about screwing people over and redpill stuff. nothing else like it. Famously he spent over 100mil in one decade on women and drugs

[–]OscarWhisky 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I'm literally flinging my shit at the walls at this post.

[–]1foople 18 points19 points  (1 child)

Good job not mentioning any specific company. To often people just memorize the bad guy and ignore the lesson.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)


It took me a while to articulate it in a completely immoral stance. I very much like contrasting the entire spectrum of morality in TRP instead of focusing on just the black and white answers. I look at it like Star Wars vs Game of thrones. Game of thrones is a much better depiction of life than Star Wars as it explains why people are shitbags, even if you don't like them, you can still understand their point of view. Cersei Lannister, deplorable human being, but an extremely protective and caring mother. You can hate her, but you still get why she is the way she is.

Painting myself as the bad guy and having a few plot twisted really helped separate it from the classical "Evil corporation vs underdog" story. Not letting the reader latch onto one aspect as the point of view and understanding behind the actions constantly shifted.

I think it's a method of writing I'll be diving into more.

[–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (4 children)

My father was in the music industry, specifically sound engineering, mixing and mastering.

He told me very early about stories of him being ripped off by artists. The way he fixed this was by never giving the final masters out without full payment, seems obvious but it's not.

The artists use every excuse to not pay. Classic one being they'll be able get the money only after they get the masters as they need that to raise money! My dad never fell for it and had to hold onto masters without the artist ever getting it sometimes. Was easier than chasing guys down for payment.

It's strange how people don't respect small business owners. Nobody expects to walk into wal-mart and leave with free stuff. But people size up small business owners and try to extract what they can get, probably because they see they're an individual like them.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 23 points24 points  (1 child)

seems obvious but it's not.

This is something a lot of people don't realize. When you pour a tremendous amount of time and work into something. YOU WANT to share it. you want your customer to have it and him go, "Wow, this is fucking amazing Clint." There is something primal about it, I see it in all fields. Then people wise up really quick, like your dad, and realize that people will fuck you.

My dad never fell for it and had to hold onto masters without the artist ever getting it sometimes. Was easier than chasing guys down for payment.

We do that same thing. Oh you can pay after? Ya no, check in my hand or I'm selling it off to the first person that wants it.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Then people wise up really quick, like your dad, and realize that people will fuck you.

Like certain of my parents' customers over the years, who complimented their work and acted all excited, and come due date the check has bounced and they act all fucking upset.

Either ask for a deposit, or make sure your work is easily retrievable, so you can have some leverage for repayment.

Due to the nature of reddit and the types that scan this sub I'd rather not disclose the type of business we're in, but I have a quick question.

We are in a business where we can easily hold onto a project that is unpaid for by the client, even if we were to return it they would need to pay someone to undo our work or complete it before the item is functioning again, so there is a low chance of Suddenly Disappointed Davids or "troll" customers. Should we ask for a significant deposit once the work has begun, non-refundable at a certain stage, or simply ask for installments? I ask because some of our clients might be annoyed (rich people) at this, but that's a risk I'm willing to take if it means a more secure way to ensure repayment in a business where, by shortage due to the nature of a project-based service, each client makes up a pretty significant portion of our revenue.

I will also await your post on installments.

[–]happyhorse_g 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You say it's strange that people will screw over the little guy, and respect the big guys, but thinking more about it, it seems natural. The big guys didn't get big by carefully not treading on peoples toes. The big, big company that OP mentions must have beaten countless competitors, and gotten the best of countless suppliers to get in such a position of authority.

[–]tubameister 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nobody expects to walk into wal-mart and leave with free stuff.

Plenty of poor and middle class kids expect this often.

[–]merkmerk73 16 points17 points  (3 children)

I mean you should still go to court

Hell I'd go to the news.

"Local business man feeding a family of 5 forced to bankruptcy after <HUGE COMPANY> refuses to pay agreed upon money, more at 6:30"

Sorry but just rolling over and letting yourself get fucked is as blue pill as it gets

[–]MartialWay 11 points12 points  (1 child)

This actually happens so often it's not newsworthy.

[–]TRPhd 6 points7 points  (0 children)

News companies are still corporations. If there is any chance of losing ad revenue or eyeballs....

[–]sir_Preacher 19 points20 points  (1 child)

He spent the last 4 years going through college to get his business degree, he got married to a lovely girl, they had a kid so she decides to be stay at home mum... save up enough to finally start his own business. He’s got this shit on lock.

This was Kevin's first mistake:

Never give out personal information, they will always be used to manipulate you.

Communication between business partners must always be kept professional and focused on the business. No need to talk about your family and weaknesses and insecurities.

They will always be used to manipulate you.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your post. This reminds me of a class project I was a part of back in high school that was really the first time I understood how the game is played.

Our social sciences teacher stated we would learn how treaties worked. He had us split into three teams, representing countries, and we each drew up treaties and negotiated with the other countries. Then he walked over to one country and whispered something to them. Their next turn, they broke their treaty with us and crushed us, symbolizing we had our entire country wiped out. They took our land, our resources, and killed everyone. Everyone was up in arms and he essentially said, "Now you see how treaties work." It was an epiphany moment for me.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (6 children)

It's similar to when people have sold off their patents for tools to large companies who pay peanuts while being able to generate millions off the back off it.

Sears Craftsman have done it to many, many people. Is it Unethical? Yeah probably, but what are you gonna do?

Another good method of assuring payment in a service is to provide it in installments which need to be paid off before moving to the next step.

Say if I was an Electrician, I'm not going to sign off any electrics or install a fusebox for a house rewiring until you pay or I'm coming back and tearing all the wire out!

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 22 points23 points  (4 children)

Another good method of assuring payment in a service is to provide it in installments which need to be paid off before moving to the next step.

This is called the 30/30/30 deal for us. It is standard for any new company we do business with since the fall in 2008. I'll be making a post on it.

[–]JakofClubs 18 points19 points  (1 child)

I had a boss in construction that did the 30/30/30 as materials are often about 30% of the total job.

  1. He would buy the materials and expect to be paid for them (at about a 10% markup). The customer can just take the materials and walk away. Nothing lost. If the customer doesn't pay, at least you have the materials.

  2. Then he would build the project in the shop and expect to be paid. The customer can just take the product if they want. If they don't pay; you have the finished product and can try to sell it.

  3. Do the install and expect to be paid. Worst case, is you're out the profit, but the materials and labor are paid for.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So separate the installments given the steps in the process of development, that makes sense.

I'm getting the gist of installments is to just have a guarantee of breaking even if at any stage you get fucked over. Now, identifying what these stages are is what I'll wait for Mr. Redwood's post for.

[–]thInc 7 points8 points  (1 child)

But what about the other 10...

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

As my late grandfather would have said,

"Stop asking so many goddamn questions and get back to work."

I think it might have something to do with it being easier to say than 33/33/33.

[–]Bambam60 7 points8 points  (1 child)

This reminds me of a certain business relationship in Mad Men (SPOILER AHEAD). Sterling Cooper Draper Pryce had about 75% of their advertising business invested in Lucky Strike cigarettes around the 60s. Everything was hunky-dory until the rep from Lucky Strike dropped SCDP because someone in the art department wouldn't sleep with him.

While this wasn't a blatant con from Lucky Strike, it's a prime example of how placing all your eggs in one basket can burn you. This example stems from some shithead canning your advertising business because he couldn't fuck one of your employees. As thoroughly explained in this post, the worst thing you (Kevin) can do is be naive.

[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The Lucky Strike executive also attempted to AMOG Roger Sterling in an emasculting way any chance he had just because he wanted an ego boost, just because he had the power to do so.

[–]ilostmyredditaccoun 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I know i'm going to get downvoted into oblivion for this, but this story is very old and from the 70's. The companies OP is referring to are Sears and Craftsman. They were notoriously guilty of doing this to new suppliers in the 70's and 80's. Nowadays, its pretty common practice to ask for the cost of time and materials up front... for 2 reasons. 1. It acts like a show of faith. 2. If they decide to back out of the purchase later? You're covered on all your costs.

Sure you might have a bunch of junk laying around that nobody wants, but you've lost nothing. However, it's still a great post.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I've seen it happen twice in the past 10 years. Multiple people in the comments state they've seen it constantly to infrequently depending on your industry.

People being fucks hasn't changed in the last 30 years just like woman's nature hasn't changed.

[–]aDrunkenWhaler 15 points16 points  (1 child)

This is brilliant, thanks OP! More posts like this please! If 10% of TRP had this type of content instead of laments about women it would be a game changer.

Mods, I love you, I really do, but when is that business section coming?

[–]Endorsed ContributorScholarInRed 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The mods have more than enough to do around here. You could just start a sub yourself. It would do better as a whole sub rather than a sub-section of an already large sub. You have a few other upvotes, maybe they will be your fellow mods.

[–]Sdom1 7 points8 points  (0 children)

YES. Yes, yes, a hundred times yes. My buddy's family owns a building company and he was the first to clue me in to these tactics. This is almost expected in the construction industry.

My buddy had a couple of tactics to flush out the bad actors. One was that he'd tell them he needed certain written guarantees, and would observe his reactions. If he didn't like the reaction he got, he'd just pass on the job.

Great post, I hope to see more!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Very helpful. I'm hoping to start a business soon and the real world knowledge and experience from the field is sorely needed. You don't get this kind of shit from the classroom.

[–]animalpoo 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Great post and I'm looking forward to your future posts.

In Kevin's scenario he should never have placed a charge over his house to begin with. Just take the expensive unsecured bridging loan as it will save you a headache/ stress from your creditors.

Unsecured > secured. The more expensive the money the bigger the risk for funder. The cheaper the money the lower the risk.

Always negotiate a stage payment from customers. 50% on day one ; 25% halfway point and the final 25% when they're happy. It gives them power to dictate if the project is to their standard, whilst allowing yourself to reduce risk. The same should be applied to your vendors.

Another case to watch out for is when an established competitor attempts to sue you for x y z reason. They're only interest is to deplete your cash reserves by dragging you through court.

Final thought; have multiple shelf company's (your accountant should at least). If your company was to go bust you can reopen with an established LLC or LTD - also the rate of lending is much cheaper after 3 years (you don't even need to be trading for the full 3 years).

[–]1egoisenemy 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I work for an engineering company currently. I don't know why Kevin would so stupid as to not get at least 1/2 the money upfront. No work is ever done in the company unless 1/2 has been paid in full; then the other half is paid once the work is done. Isn't this just common sense? This is just a side point and doesn't detract from your main points, points that I agree wholeheartedly. I just didn't realize business was ever done upfront like this.

[–]azrise 4 points5 points  (1 child)

This is somewhat confusing to me. I'm guessing things work differently in the United States, but in my country this type of situation is very easily avoided by demanding what we call a "signal fee" whereby the buyer needs to pay from 30% to 50% in advance when he orders the service. Some businesses even demand 100% full payment in advance.

There is no business owner in my country that will risk being left empty handed like that by taking someone's word that the payment will come in the end. It makes absolutely no sense.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It happens, you'd be surprised how dumb people are.

[–]MoneyStatusLooks 5 points5 points [recovered]

I work in the gambling industry and deal with approx 20-30 different companies. Most pay me a small percent, my biggest client pays me approx 30%, my second and third biggest about 10% each, then the rest pay me a small % each.

A lot of the other companies in the industry stick together, so if someone gets fucked by X company, we all decide to boycott that company and it essentially means no one sends them business and they get bankrupt. We have caught several companies shaving (stealing) from us, so have completely blacklisted them. So we are basically a self regulating industry and don't accept getting fucked over.

[–]Archange_ 1 point2 points  (2 children)

This self-regulation is close to collusion or cartel behaviour, which may or may not be prosecuted by the government.

[–]MoneyStatusLooks 3 points3 points [recovered]

It's not illegal to tell your associates when someone screws you over to avoid doing business with them. In fact, it's fucking smart because people do it less when they realise their actions have actual negative consequences.

[–]Archange_ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In my industry, financial services, some brokers are major troublemakers. Usually not the whole company but individuals or teams. So after a broker screws up big time, you refuse to deal with him any longer, you talk to others about this screw-up and many others stop dealing with him because, well, he also screwed them up. Thus the broker loses 75% of his deal flow in 1-2 weeks. Then the bad broker complains to the regulator about being shut out of the market by colluding firms, regulator checks the deal flow and hands out a small fine to all those who boycott him and orders him to be reinstated. Finally the legal department of each company stages a meeting in which we are warned against collusion and asked to stop propagating rumors about bad behaviour.

The shitty merry-go-round goes and goes and goes. Lucky you being able to warn your associates.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Excellent post.

One of the key aspect so strategy in any part of life is the question of what you can do without any consent. What can you do regardless of what the other wants you to do and what can you do regardless of what he tries to prevent? Always ask: "Do I need anyone other than myself to make this action go through?" If you need anybody else to make it go through, you need to start asking questions about how much leverage you have in the situation.

If there's mutual reliance on the project, or if they rely on you for something else that's necessary for them, or if they fear some sort of revenge you can realistically take on them, then you're well off. Too many people don't get that. They make their decisions based off of what they can ask permission to do or trust others to be honest about. These guys get so unbelievably screwed over once the other side's self interest begins to guide them. Leverage can mean many things from tangible advantages to social ones, but regardless of what form it takes leverage is EVERYTHING.

[–]BradPill 7 points8 points  (2 children)

So.... - Kevin goes into a $1M deal without contract? Without legal advice? - Then he has to buy all materials himself, without any deposit? Again, no legal advice? - No contract means no delivery and inspection-dates? No third party inspection in case parties might disagree?

Also, Kevin is allowed a 30% (or 3%) increase - without ANY objection or compensation by or for the buyer? All bells should go off, because it shows they never intend to pay in the first place.

And, although you try to make a point, a big part of it negated by the fact that you can't keep track of your own digits: was it a $100K or $1M deal? Kinda of big difference (a factor 10, just in case).

Good effort, but....

[–]tonyfaulkner 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It is truly intriguing how much business relations and sexual relations are similar to each other.

[–]Raikkonen716 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I worked in sales, this post is so true. Law is slow, law between countries (if you are exporting/importing) is even slower, so you can't rely on law most of the times. Don't be trapped by your customers. When in doubt, ask for advanced payment.

I have to thank you op, i always had the rule of askind advanced payment for new customers, but maybe i wouldn't do it with some big and reputable customer. No doubt i will undervalue a company from now on, be it "The grocery of Sam" of the fucking Amazon.

[–]Neverd0wn 2 points3 points  (1 child)

This has nothing to do with spreading your eggs, more with negotiating a good contract.

[–]BleachedWhale 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The rule being taught is: if you ever get a huge new customer that would treble your sales.. Don't do business with them.

I agree with you. Kevin was a moron legally. Nothing to do with eggs in baskets. If he had protected himself properly, he would have made the wise choice.

[–]aBitClearer 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Very well-written post here OP.

I've owned a small and very profitable business for 15 years. We have had a near 70% drop in revenue over the last 7 years, but I make almost exactly the same as I did when things were at their best.

How can I do this?

*1) All new business is paid in advance thru company check, wire transfer or by credit card. I'd rather loose 2.5% on CC transactions than take bad debt any day!

*2) All N30/45/60 customers are held to terms, and if they fail to pay on time, new shipments must be paid for in advance.

*3) We screen out the catfish who are on credit hold with our competition. These SOB buyers are liars, who dangle "impressive" opportunities, but really seek to use our cash to pay their preferred suppliers, then take their sweet time paying us. I can always smell these types coming, and this sense serves me well in preserving my companies assets (cash, time, resources, and capacity).

Cash is king, and whoever has the cash makes the rules.

[–]thetotalpackage7 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Business can be ruthless. Here's a true story for you as it relates to my business. Been in biz for 10 years. Company shot off like a racehorse and within a year I had close to mil in sales and was taking home close to $200k. But as the great recession hit, things slowed down drastically.

I did however have a client who was placing a lot of biz with me and I was making in-roads with his parent company to get business from all of their other reps. I made the mistake of telling him. Well, slippery fuck that he was, and wanting to remain my top client, he broke up the work I was doing with is parent company. HE wanted to be the gatekeeper of referrals that came my way. Real scumbag move. Well he did give me a few referrals, which kept me from blowing him up But I could have done so much more on my own volition.

Fast forward to this past November. We're at a bar and he comes out from the bathroom and sees his assistant making out with me, freaks out and grabs me by the throat. I stand up and smash him in the face. Client is lost of course. HE proceeds to blow up the referrals he sent my way and I'm left trying to replace my income. The guy was a c*cksucker so I feel great about smashing him, but as it pertains to this moral of the above story...yes, do not put all of your eggs in one basket.

[–]1Snivellious 2 points3 points  (0 children)

An exceedingly relevant comic from Scott Adams (who spent years in the trenches with this sort of thing): http://dilbert.com/strip/2008-06-13

Even a company that's a bit more on the level, that intends to pay you, can completely fuck you over. Maybe their purchasing department takes three months to pay an invoice normally. Maybe they're tight on cash, so they decide to just not pay you until the year end reports are are done. Maybe they want to chisel you down a few grand at a time until you accept anything just to get paid.

Regardless of their reasons, a company several times your size can fuck you over at will. Either have alternative lines of income, or ensure that you don't deal with people you don't outweigh.

[–]Freiling 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Thank god for stuff like this.

Hey, TRP - the world isn't about women!

[–]taoofmojo 1 point2 points  (7 children)

Non of you heard of a promissory note?He fuck up by not getting one. What was he learning in business school?Post makes me mad

[–]JJonesWisco 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I can attest to Mr. Redwood's reply here. I lawyer it up for a living. Sure, a promissory note should help, in theory. However, the lawyer's fees will eat up any recovery you gain by suing. Don't even think about suing someone for less than $50k. I could probably get it done for $20k of my time, if it's a simple small deal. If you're lucky enough to get the whole amount, you'll be paid over time. My fees, however, have to be paid in full before you ever see any money from a judgment. So in addition to the $50k that you're out, you'll have to pony up substantial real cash just for the privilege of being able to collect that $50k in small increments over time. On top of that, you'll probably have to deal with depositions and production of documents requests that could take up most of your time away from your business of generating paying clients. Are you starting to get the picture? Sure, you should have a promissory note. You better hope you never need to use it though.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

A lot of people don't realize this. In this situation you either roll over and take it or spend more money to get your money you are already owed. A lot of times the profit you would have made is eaten by the legal fees and it's not even guaranteed you will win till the court hearings.

Usually it's cheaper to just eat the lose and invest that time, money and energy into a contract that will pay you.

[–]JJonesWisco 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Correct. Yes, you can always sue someone. It is rarely a profitable part of your overall business venture, unless you are a lawyer, of course.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

promissory note

Ha, don't bank on it. Corperation's can run circles around you with their legal team. They can dumb thousands upon thousands of legal papers on you that you must go through. If you are one guy, or a start up, you are effectively trying to win WW2 as a toddler.

Legal papers can help, you can and should get a lawyer. But, for the most part, you will lose no matter which way it goes. Contracts don't mean shit when vendors are demanding their money and you can't pay them. They don't give a shit about your problems, they want their money or you will soon find yourself in multiple court appearances.

Don't bank on the law, bank on good business practice so you never have to worry about the law.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

This might be a silly question: How did thr big corporation in this situation benefit? Seems like the little guy just got fucked but I missed how the corporation won.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They got 60k worth of work for free.

The company in real life that got fucked for 1 million?

The corporation got 1 million dollars worth of work for free.

[–]Darkone06 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a major theme in Mr. Robot.

The company Elliot works for only has one major customer who is 85%of their business.

When shit goes wrong and they start looking at competitors all hell breaks loose for that company.

This is accelerated by the fact they have a disgruntle employee working on their top project, that is deliberately sabotaging the project.

Moral of the story: Dont rely on just one person or client, diversify.

[–]trp_dude 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Yup. This happens a lot more in other countries.

Research in Motion did something similar to Nokia - they wanted to slow Nokia down from coming into the smartphone market, so they pretended that they would license their software to them. They kept on sending them buggy software, and Nokia ended up with tens of millions of dollars of equipment they never got to sell.

[–]Kardlonoc 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am self contracted nowhere near the amounts of the post listed...however things really did change for me the more and more jobs from different cilents I brought on.

I was able to raise prices and be a lot more confident. I was able to say "fuck off" to toxic places and do things my way more often. If some place didn't like me personally, fine, Ill go some place else, no skin off my back.

To live with multiple sources of income and work is really nice. If something fucks up somewhere you don't even need to bat an eye you have everything else going.

Now...fucking imagine the typical job. Yeah its scary for a lot people, espeically older people, to have one employer, one source of income and one job that you have speically trained for. Its hard to even think what happens if you get layed off one day from that job and so the mentality becomes one of "ill do whatever it takes to keep this job" even your large efforts go unnoticed and you no longer can tell the forest from the trees.

Its the wrong attitude to take. In capitalist America you are expected to be looking how to get a pay raise, even if that means quitting and making a company under yourself. Going around to several places is the norm nowadays as well, long gone are the days of career company.

That is...you should have the mentality of getting a promotion rather than he mentality of what it takes not to get fired.

[–]TheCarm 1 point2 points  (4 children)

So question then. I am starting up a company. We have one product and we want to place it into larger stores like publix, target, along with smaller local shops. Problem im seeing now is that if we get 5 companies willing to buy our product. Thats 20 percent of our business each in a void. How does a startup selling a product (not a service) go about finding enough buyers to ensure not one is over 10 percent? We are so early stage its a guaruntee that will happen

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

What you are referring to is distributors, not clients. Your clients are the people that will buy your product directly from your distributors.

I know a guy who started a business selling products in the 80's just like you. circa 2005 he sold for 150million. I asked him about his thoughts on distribution and selling his product. He said distributors are a pain in the ass to deal with. Especially walmart. He said to build your name up as much as possible till you can sell directly to your customer via website. And you gain 100% profit instead of a distributor taking a chuck of it.

Distribution is a necessary thing but if you can, drop them as soon as possible. Unless your product is something that turns a better profit through distribution. His product was like the top tier of his industry and everyone knows the name, he didn't need distributors.

[–]TheCarm 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Well I can tell you Im selling workout supplements. Its way cheaper and faster to have it produced and distributed. But i understand, as soon as i can drop them i will do it

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

To give you a time frame though. The guy I cited built his entire company around high quality product and amazing customer service. Bar none, they have the best service I've ever seen of a product. It took him 15 years to build a loyal customer base and drop his distributors.

I think supplements might be to competitive to follow his business model. if you can pull it off great but you will probably be stuck in the distribution phase for a very long time.

[–]MyFirstOtherAccount 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If anyone wants the movie version of this it's Horrible Bosses 2

Edit: woops this was already said twice mb

[–]IIlllIllIIIllIl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm eager for your next post. I'm the son of an upper middle class magnate, and while I'm not entirely concerned, I am well aware of some of the dangers ahead of me. I only recently became aware of this when I read The 48 Laws of Power, where Law 41 states: Avoid stepping into the shoes of a great man.

I look up to you in this way. You have walked the path I intend to, and giving that experience away deserves respect.

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 3 points4 points  (5 children)

Amazing post. People pay very good money for advice like this.

I am one of those fancy pants Consultants and can confirm the 10% rule mentioned above, if one of my customers tries to fuck me with a bad deal (like the one OP mentioned) they know that I will walk away and they will be out in the cold. This is power and it ensures a proper relationship, much like you have to maintain power in LTRs.

The concept boils down to one that is found in my personal bible: Anti-Fragile by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. In it he reminds the reader to make decisions in terms of optionality, that is: go with the choice that will allow you the most flexibility in terms of unlimited gains and limited losses.

In the IRC channel we often reference the concept of tryouts: "A tournament of plates where the goal is a LTR with you." also known as spinning plates with an LTR in mind. This allows the man to consciously decide which woman he wants to give his commitment to instead of his dick and her sexual availability leading him to ruin.

Keep these concepts in mind fellas.

Again, This was an amazing post, Clint.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

what are your other bibles?

[–]IRC Mod-Anteros- 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Starting Strength is a distant second.

Note: For every hour a man spend reading about socializing he should spend 10 hours socializing IN PERSON. Experience is the best teacher.

We have a bot in the channel that answers these sorts of questions, there is also a library of interesting books but all pale in comparison to going out and making mistakes (remember to wear a condom and avoid face tattoos.).

[–]debashis22 2 points3 points  (1 child)

You're absolutely right here. I consult to Federal Government Contractors and getting invoices paid is the bane of my existence. Few companies honor their net payment terms, even though I'm giving them 40+ hours of my life every week.

[–]Endorsed ContributorClint_Redwood[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We take bets in our office on a few customers.

Last one was net 236. I didn't win.

[–]wanderer779 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This guy grew up learning about real life while most people were being told to be nice and work hard. Forget about money this is the true inequality.

[–]7Fig 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Kevin would have to be a pretty special person to grab up a big order before his company is formed. Also Kevin would have to be pretty stupid to not have his materials covered up front. Look at any factory in China. You need 30% down or your work will not be started.

This whole story is avoided by not leveraging yourself on a strangers promise.

This sounds more like the plot to "Horrible Bosses 2".

[–]Sunshinelorrypop 0 points1 point  (8 children)

So the scam is that you pay him $100,000 for a job. He does the work, you hold out on payment until he goes busto. You keep the work plus not having to pay for the job?

[–]user_none 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Damn good post and it all made sense while reading through. The place where it really hit home was your bolded, "Never have all your eggs in one basket." That, is the business equivalent of oneitis.

[–]ChickenBalotelli 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and wisdom. A truly useful and elevating post.

Is there any kind of paperwork that can be signed to ensure this does not happen?

-business newb

[–][deleted] 1 points1 points

[permanently deleted]

[–]1favours_of_the_moon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This happened to me. Actually, myself and my sister. She was CEO, so she cut me out of the loop. I saw it happening, but couldn't do anything. Her babydaddy gave us the startup.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could someone link the second part mentioned?

[–]thieveries 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow! Great post! As a gay male, I'm not always 100% sure why I even follow this sub. I think it's because I can appreciate the general sentiment. However, if this entire sub was generating content geared towards no nonsense business advice, I would be fucking pumped!

As I am currently in the processes of getting all my ducks in order (one could probably do that for an entire life - and there has to come a moment when you just fucking do it) - this post came at a perfect time, and I would love to hear more 'real life' accounts of things.

Life isn't all about who you're fucking, because honestly at the end of the day, you're sleeping with yourself, so you better be damn proud of what you're doing, and who you're becoming.

[–]Obnoxious_bellend 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think I know which cpg company did the raping in your example...pm me.

[–]CreamiestCream 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I bet you forgot about Tim

Not by a long-shot, I had Tim on my radar the entire time. Question: at what age did you realize you had morphed into a misguided pussy?

[–]MartialWay 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In business, the more charming and the more enthusiastic a person is, the more you should be skeptical of them.

This is one of the more brilliant things here. If I have have an instinctive like towards someone and just a gut feeling I KNOW that I can trust them...I immediately get suspicious.

The elite professional hustlers all make you feel this way.

[–]Merwebb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How about when people tells you "just gimme a guide with all the things you are going to do step by step"

[–]fakenate1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great post.

My only critique is that not paying your vendor isn't illegal. You won't go to jail for not paying vendors. You can be sued for not paying a contract, but that's a tort. When you lose in court for not paying the vendor there will be a judgement against your company. If you don't pay that, the sheriff will show up and start taking shit.

[–]Kalepsis 0 points1 point  (2 children)

This was the plotline to Horrible Bosses 2.

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