550
551

Red Pill TheoryEvery relationship is a negotiation, so ask for and give less than her (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Endorsed ContributorWoujo

Every relationship is fundamentally an ongoing exchange, or to put it another way, a contract. Like all contracts, the terms of the relationship (i.e., what each party is obligated to do for the other) must be negotiated. You can’t “sue” somebody for violating the terms of your relationship in the modern world, so the underlying, unspoken contract is constantly renegotiated based on who has more power.

The key to any negotiation is your BATNA – Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement. The better your BATNA, the more leverage you have to walk away and say “I have a better option, I don’t need to put with your shit.”

Women come into every relationship with a weaker negotiating position for two reasons: First, they have less to offer than men. Pop culture acts like pussy is the most valuable thing in the world, and a hot girl is the pinnacle of value, but those things are not valuable at all because every woman has a pussy and a lot of women are hot. Being hot is temporary, subjective, hard to maintain, and mostly fake. Women know that you can fuck the hottest girl you’ve ever seen in LA or Miami for $200, so their main “asset” is pretty much valueless. A valuable man (by “value”, I mean the things that women are attracted to) is much more scarce. Second, women are always weaker in negotiations because they are hypergamous. If a woman has more value than the man, she will not even be interested enough to enter the negotiation; so she will only cut deals with higher-value men than her.

Women are deeply aware of their weaker negotiating position in a way that men are not. Nietzsche observed that the weaker party in the human hierarchy (the “slave”) obsesses about the master’s power but the master doesn’t even think about or notice the slave. The master’s aloofness benefits the slave because the slave can scheme and strategize while the master is completely unaware. Women resent men’s power gap in relationships and their resentment is deepened because they can never close the gap because they can never turn off their hypergamy. Women are obsessed with men’s power (or lack thereof) and how he wields that power. Because men are aloof, they won’t even realize they are in a negotiation or that they are conceding too much, whereas the woman is carefully calculating exactly what the man is giving and what she is giving up.

Women want a bad deal

Here’s the paradox of negotiating with women: THEY WANT TO LOSE. If they “win” the negotiation (i.e., they get a better deal than you), they lose attraction. Humans view society as hierarchical and subconsciously put every person they meet somewhere in that hierarchy and treat them accordingly. Women are only attracted to males that are “higher” than them in the ape hierarchy, so if you look like you are giving her more than she is giving you, she sees you as inferior and loses attraction. Women are subconsciously keeping a ledger of everything you have done for them and everything they have done for you. If what you have done for them exceeds what they have done for you, they lose attraction. Comedians often joke about how women will remember little things the man has done and bring it up in an argument months later, whereas the man completely forgets. This joke is true because women’s resentment and weaker position causes them to keep score in ways that men are completely oblivious to.

Women’s desire for a bad deal is terrible for them because it will lead them to guys who literally do not care about them. Because modern society doesn’t enforce relationship contracts, women are constantly under threat of the guy they want breaking the deal and leaving them. Women, however, still need affection, security, “love,” and sometimes material things, so they find a beta male to feed her other desires. This is the alpha fucks/beta bucks distinction.

This master/slave dialectic is also why women become so cold and terrible towards men they have lost attraction to. Once the man falls beneath the woman and she becomes the “master” vis-à-vis him she completely stops caring for him in any way emotionally. This is also why a lot of beautiful women have low self-esteem. It’s almost as if he ceases to exist. The only guys that emotionally “count” for women are those above them, and the ones above them make them feel shitty, so all the validation from the lower guys does nothing for them.

Women know when they are swindling you. If someone offers to sell you a new Lamborghini for $200, you will think either that he is a fucking idiot or there is something terribly wrong with the Lambo. Similarly, if you give up too much in a relationship the woman may think “this guy has no BATNA and therefore no value. A lot of guys don’t feel like they are being hustled because they think “I’m doing this because I like her.” This is dangerous because it relies on her having self-esteem, which most women (and men) don’t have. Instead of her thinking “he is giving me things because I am awesome” she will think “he is giving me things because he has no other options or because he is a sucker.” If you let somebody with low self-esteem win the negotiation by getting a better deal, they will think of themselves as low and you even lower. Attraction gone.

Emotional investment

Women don’t just lose attraction when you give them more than they give you, they also lose attraction if you do anything to indicate that you WOULD give them more than they give you. In the preemptive negotiation before the actual exchange women subconsciously “test” you to see how “invested” you are in them – if your investment exceeds theirs, they have already won the negotiation, even though no actual goods or services were exchanged.

Here’s an example from a text conversation:

Her: What are you doing tonight?

Me: My plan is to [whatever I’m planning on doing tonight]. What are you doing?

Her: Well, my plans have been thrown into a tizzy.

Let’s look at her last text. Normally, if somebody tells you that their plans have been thrown into a tizzy, your natural reaction is to ask why. That’s what a reasonable, compassionate person would do. But her last text is actually a very subtle shit test to get me to CARE about her plans and HELP her fix them. If I text back “why what happened?” I’ve proven that I’m willing to help. Wrong move! I told her I already have plans so her plans being ruined are not my problem. Also, her response was not responsive to my question “what are you doing?” so I don’t text back. After she realizes I won’t text back she then texts me explaining what happened to her plans (hint: I still don’t care) and then tries to come where I am. Her shit test failed.

You may disagree with my interpretation of this text conversation but the larger point is that you can lose a negotiation by indicating that you are ready and willing to do things for her, even very mild things. The human mind amplifies emotions to their extreme so even a few small favors can subconsciously make a woman “feel” like you are a beta. You must be constantly present and alert because these shit tests are very subtle. You may have to suppress your natural altruistic emotions or your beta emotions that push you to do things for people they don’t deserve. Every time a woman complains about a stupid thing, you should ignore it because 1) it’s not your problem, 2) nothing really bad will happen to the woman if you don’t help, 3) even you pretending to care about her stupid complaint shows that you are invested in her, and you’ve already lost the negotiation. Obviously, if something serious happened (like she needs to go to the hospital) you should help.

Don’t ask, don’t give

We know that you shouldn’t even indicate that you might do things for women or give them things until they’ve done things for you because it indicates emotional investment, which is a negotiation loser. To take this concept a step further, you should also not “ask” a woman for anything either. I’ve written elsewhere that women are not attracted to “acquisitive” men (i.e., men that are trying to get something, either from them or anybody else). In the alpha hierarchy the alpha male gives the lower-ranked apes resources, but only after the betas obey. If a man “asks” a woman for a bunch of stuff he looks like the beta male.

“Asking” and “giving” are two sides of the same coin: emotional investment. Both say to a woman, at least subconsciously, “you are higher value than me and I am ready to take a shittier deal in this negotiation to have you.” Emotional investment indicates that you are lower than her in the alpha hierarchy, making her lose attraction.

It is a matter of crucial evolutionary importance for a woman to find a higher-ranked male in the hierarchy, so women have a finely tuned sense of men’s emotions. They can tell from your demeanor, your body language, your words, etc… whether you are invested. This is all subconscious. You may have no idea you are emotionally invested, but she can tell. If I’m at a club, I can tell which guy is dancing because he is legitimately having fun and who is dancing because he is trying to impress women.

Most “beta” behavior is some type of “asking” or “giving.” Validating yourself to a woman (for example, by bragging) is BOTH asking and giving. Bragging subconsciously feels like asking her to like you. Bragging is also giving – you are taking valuable time out of your day (or the party you are at) to tell her your resume, at no benefit to yourself. Women say they are turned off by bragging because it’s “douchey,” but the real reason they are turned off is that they “feel” you are emotionally invested.

Please note that it doesn’t matter whether you actually ask or give – what matters is how it FEELS to her. This whole mechanism of wanting to lose the negotiation is an evil, subconscious feeling - not a rational decision she makes. Most women wish they could just love the beta loser that loves them back. Whether something feels like asking or giving depends on how you do it. For example, guys get approach anxiety because it “feels” like they are asking the woman for something. You can re-frame an approach, and make it feel like you are just an awesome guy talking to her. The things you do don’t have to make logical sense (why else would you approach a girl if not to ask and/or give??) but as long as they don’t “feel” like asking or giving they are good.

How do I stop being emotionally invested??

It is in your genes to want women (asking) and to provide for them (giving) so it is hard to not appear emotionally invested. The challenge is amplified by the fact that most of what you do is controlled by your emotional, subconscious brain so you may ask and give without even realizing it. For example, if you can’t stop staring at a hot girl your staring may FEEL like “asking” in her mind. Even hanging around her in an awkward way can “feel” like asking.

It's intimidating to think that you can fuck it up by such subtle and meaningless actions. But the flipside is also true – because women’s emotional antennas are so finely-tuned, you can build attraction by small gestures. You can also re-frame situations so that you are doing the exact same thing but do not “feel” like you are asking or giving.

There are two ways to not appear emotionally invested: The first is to be an Oscar-award winning actor and memorize a script telling how you to act in every single situation. This is incredibly difficult because in every moment you must override your natural emotions and make sure every detail of every action is perfect or else it will slip out that you are emotionally invested. This is why some PUA guys spend hours in front of a mirror practicing smiling and other stupid shit. I’m not even sure if this method is even possible.

The other way to not get emotionally invested is to truly, deeply, from the bottom of your heart, not give a single fuck about her. To get to this point, you must feel pure joy, pure awesomeness, and a pure version of any other positive emotion you need. All of this must be totally unconnected to the woman. When she is around you, she has to feel like your emotions are primarily directed to things that are not her. I wrote an article earlier about how as a man you need to be “appreciative” of the world, just taking in the wonder of the universe constantly. You have to almost be in this weird, psychedelic, irrational state, where you are having an awesome time with her but if she stepped outside and got ran over by a bus it wouldn’t affect your night at all. It’s weird, but our emotions are weird.

It is imperative that you have a mission, enjoy it deeply, and passionately stick to the mission no matter what she says or does, even if it means losing her. She may become more attracted if you make it clear you pick the mission over her. You must do this on a macro level (i.e., you must have a mission in life), and on a micro level (every time you hang out with a girl, you must have a plan for your night or the date). She is literally just along for the ride. In reality, of course, you may not care what you do on a date – you just want to hang out with her. But that is the definition of emotional investment! Even if you really don’t care, you must have a plan to make her “feel” like you are not invested in her. Remember the famous quote “idle hands are the devil’s playground”? The same principle applies here – if you are hemming and hawing and just “going with the flow” you may be tempted to fixate on her as the mission and then ask and give. Also, beautiful women are used to every single man they interact with asking and giving, so they will just “assume” you are asking and giving too unless you make it clear that your emotions are directed elsewhere.

How to act

It seems like I have created a paradox: even if the woman is totally attracted to you, it would seem very difficult to escalate or to get her to do anything if you don’t ask for anything or give her anything. That’s correct – you need some creativity to be able to “game” women using this paradigm because it eliminates a lot of the typical shit guys do to get girls to like them (buy them drinks, etc…). Please also take all this with a huge grain of salt because the real world is not easily reducible to simple rules and slogans. Obviously, it’s impossible to never ask a woman for anything or give her anything. Even talking to her is “giving” her something – your time and attention. The key here is to just be cognizant of the fact that the woman wants to lose the negotiation – the woman wants to be the asker and the giver – it is in her genes. Also, it is ok to emotionally invest in her (a little) if she invests in you – you just need to make sure the score is tilted in your favor. If she is buying you drinks all night, it would be weird if you never bought her anything.

It is actually easier to escalate when you are not asking or giving because you are not flipping the switches in her subconscious brain that make her lose attraction or feel “trapped” or “under attack.” You can still do a lot without asking or giving: laugh, share stories, have a deep conversation, touch affectionately. You will also be able to act a lot “nicer,” because your niceness will not be attached to submissiveness and supplication.

The steps to escalation, oversimplified, are as follows:

1) She sees you be awesome.

2) She starts to “like” you so she does things for you UNPROMPTED by you.

3) Now that she has “invested” in you, in turn you can “accept” her and escalate.

Because feelings trump reality and logic, you can “ask” girls things (why would you ever give??) without it feeling like asking. For example, if I’m wingmaning for my friend, I will ask his girl if she wants to go to the next bar with us. This way, she doesn’t “feel” like he is asking her. It’s a stupid trick but it helps.

Warmth

All of this may sound cold and Machiavellian, and it is, because human beings have evil subconscious emotions. But all of this falls apart if she realizes you are playing games or are doing this shit on purpose. The fact that you are scheming to fuck her will subconsciously trigger her feeling that you are validating yourself to her. Furthermore, society has taught women that men who play games are assholes. Women also genuinely do not like aloof, arrogant and weirdly standoffish men. All of this Machiavellian calculation must be done beneath a façade of extreme warmth and friendliness. A true master never looks like he’s trying to be “alpha.” He just enjoys himself. Even if a woman tries to act shitty a master acts friendly because nothing that she can do can hurt him. Furthermore, your efforts to ensure that you win the negotiation must be done very diplomatically so as to not hurt her feelings. She does not realize that her subconscious emotions make you do things that are “mean” so you must minimize the effects of those actions.

Because not asking and giving are so hard, and when a guy successfully stops asking and giving his results are so much better, a lot of guys advocate “ignoring” women. This advice is ridiculous. If you completely “ignore” her then you’ll never see her again. When these guys say “ignore” women, they really mean “show that you are not emotionally invested.” But having a happy, cheery disposition also shows emotional divestment. “Ignoring” runs the risk that she will think you are playing games or are actually not interested.

Love

A lot of regular beta buys would try to reject this advice by thinking “I am not doing things to get anything from her, but because I love her.” This is a mistake caused by the modern idea that love is just an emotion or a series of emotions. True love is something much more transcendent than any material thing or emotion – in my opinion, love is the rational pursuit of WHATEVER IS BEST FOR HER. Pursuing what is best for her is different from what makes her feel good. Under my definition of love, the presence of an “alpha” male is better for a woman than any little trinkets he can buy for her or favors he does for her. Under that definition of “love,” she MUST lose the negotiation.

Go to my website: http://www.woujo.com Follow me on twitter: http://www.twitter.com/woujo3


[–]lietruth 96 points97 points  (2 children)

It comes down to neediness. When a woman see's you're needy (always available, supplicating, doing her favors). She instinctively knows that you are not a valuable man.

When you're needy you lack the necessities of life.

Valuable men are not needy. They don't appease. They don't ask for permission.

[–]Philletto 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The original post is over thought, you've condensed it to the essentials. When you're confident, successful and happy, then men and women want to be part of it. It's not even a specifically red pill issue.

[–]jdgrazia 53 points54 points  (2 children)

this post takes many separate TRP axioms and ties them together in an all encompassing fashion. very well written, thank you sir

[–]Senior Contributordr_warlock 58 points59 points  (1 child)

Seconded.

/u/redpillschool, sticky this thread. This is a proper theory post. Let it overshadow all the shit we've seen since Christmas.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

second that this should be stickied and reread as its very thoughtful and covers alot of ground.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[deleted]

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]_vend7u 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      So how should he have handled the situation?

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      acted just like he would if it was some male friend he didn't care about impressing that much.

      [–][deleted] 26 points27 points  (1 child)

      I've found you can skip negotiation if you have standards.

      My wife knows certain things are the way they are without nagging, because those are the standards I've set for the relationship.

      Much easier, much more sustainable.

      [–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana 23 points24 points  (2 children)

      "Price is what you pay. Value is what you get." -Warren Buffett

      There are too many men out there paying a high price for low-value women.

      The paradox OP points out is real: the more you are willing to grovel for low-value women, the less they will respect you and the less attractive you will be to them. How many times have you seen this "race to the bottom" in real life relationships where the woman shows increasing disrespect for the man and yet he continues to double-down on his kindness to her?

      Why does the man behave this way? Maybe it is because he thinks he can't do any better and he's afraid to be alone. Maybe its because his blue pill programming is telling him to be loyal to his "soulmate" and that it is not good to have other options. Maybe it is because he is married to her and is afraid of losing half his assets and access to his kids in the impending divorce. It ultimately boils down to the BATNA that OP mentions...these men have no options and are thus have no choice but to swallow their pride and assume the position.

      Real-life example:

      For this past NYE I had plans to take my main girl out to stuff ourselves with seafood and champagne at a nice restaurant and then go to a posh hotel where I would fuck her brains out to the sound of the midnight fireworks.

      On Christmas weekend she came to visit me and decided to be bitchy so we parted ways and I started talking to 20-year-old Crossfit chick who was more than willing to take the place of my main in my NYE plans. However, Crossfit chick's ugly side was also starting to show during the discussion so I started thinking about taking another woman who knows how to give a killer massage.

      There were actually many women who would have jumped at the chance of taking part in my NYE plans and thus my main girl's bad behavior was of little concern to me; heck I'd be willing to go by myself and still have a great time.

      Ultimately, at the last minute, main girl broke radio silence with her tail between her legs and so I cancelled with Crossfit chick and we had a wonderful NYE celebration. However, no matter what her decision, I was almost guaranteed to have a great NYE with a lovely woman due to having a BATNA, and a BATNA for my BATNA, etc.

      Having these options meant that I didn't have to grovel for her to come back and thus I was able to maintain her attraction for me, and more importantly, my self-respect.

      [–]harsha_hs 14 points15 points  (1 child)

      Good learning from this post : It's not necessary to have 2 other backup plates if your girl bails you out. Realise that you can do things by yourself and still have a great time. Do not lose frame and do not lose your self respect, because if you lose self respect you won't get the pussy. You'll be an orbiter for life to her.

      [–]Endorsed Contributorredpillbanana 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Realise that you can do things by yourself and still have a great time

      This is an important point. If you're happy doing things on your own, you always have a great BATNA.

      [–]Senior Contributoradam-l 19 points20 points  (0 children)

      Here’s the paradox of negotiating with women: THEY WANT TO LOSE.

      Great observation. It has been noted a few centuries ago:

      "Come, civil night,

      Thou sober-suited matron all in black,

      And learn me how to lose a winning match,

      Played for a pair of stainless maidenhoods"

      Juliet, in Shakespear's Romeo and Juliet

      Interestingly, what is true for a single woman, i.e. her need to lose in order to win in love, scales smoothly on a societal level: in order for a society (which includes women) to prosper, the female sexual strategy must be defeated.

      -Adam

      [–][deleted]  (10 children)

      [removed]

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 6 points7 points  (5 children)

      You're exactly right, I actually had a paragraph saying this exact same thing and I took it out because I thought it was repetitive. You do need to do stuff for her, just less than what she does for you.

      [–]BreathOfDick 0 points1 point  (4 children)

      You do need to do stuff for her, just less than what she does for you.

      I disagree with this paradigm of keeping score. While I enjoyed your post, it is so intricate that it's like walking on egg shells to keep her attracted to you. If I care about a woman and want to do something because it will be personally rewarding, then she can go fuck herself if it somehow makes me less attractive to her. IDGAF should apply to whether or not her attraction to your faulters, not your attitude towards her as a person.

      And no I wouldn't care about her plans fizzling that's her problem. But taking a chick out to eat when you know she's broke and having a tough time and would love some great food, it doesn't matter if she has done an equivalent favor or whatever for me, I'm not keeping score with generosity. If she thinks it's too much or too beta then she's clearly too retarded for me to bother with her anyway.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      I disagree with this paradigm of keeping score.

      I don't think you should necessarily keep score. Just realize that she is keeping score, so asking and giving are unattractive.

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I can second that women are always keeping score. They must have the memory of elephants because I swear they can recall with eery accuracy every single thing they want to- times you fucked up, for example. They will, however, conveniently forget their own mistakes

      [–]Kindathrowaway001 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Who are you people? What is this sub?? Are you crazy? Who are these flaky girls in your life? I am married. I do things for my husband. He does for me. If he does things that make me a bit irritated, which is extremely rare, I wil always assume the best intention, and he reciprocates. He has only treated me with love, respect. I have found this extremely attractive and sexy. (He is also very sexy). Maybe our marriage is good because I always think "omg , he does so much." and he thinks the same thing for me. When there is a serious thing in my life, I always want his opinion and talk with him about it.

      [–]BreathOfDick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Actually just got a pretty good shit test thrown at me today because of doing what I described above. AWALT. It's fun when you see the tests for what they are though.

      [–]supper_pt 6 points7 points  (3 children)

      Exactly my thoughts

      I really appreciated the post and the well though logic but I keep coming back to what you have written.

      I think you have to keep the scales tipped in your favor always ("ask and give less" ) but I can't think of a situation where you could simply not give a single fuck about her and still try to call it a serious relationship.

      A relationship is a contract, but I believe that, while giving less than her, you still need to bring something to the table.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

      I agree with you; I will edit.

      [–]Raygunzoi 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      How do you make her give you something 1st? I belive in your post it would be like a game of chess where she is always 1 step ahead ; but what happens if this process is slow or non exsistant , wouldn't this cause the relationship to develepo much slower?

      On the weary note , are all of the things in your post determinded? Surley there would be some alternitives and alterations in women causing them to act slightly different from the norm you depicted.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      How do you make her give you something 1st? I belive in your post it would be like a game of chess where she is always 1 step ahead ; but what happens if this process is slow or non exsistant , wouldn't this cause the relationship to develepo much slower?

      Sometimes she just doesn't like you and will never invest in you. Not much you can do about that. But if she does like you, she will start doing things on her own.

      [–]NeoreactionSafe 22 points23 points  (1 child)

       

      The "Law of Attraction" is that masculine polarity and feminine polarity attract each other and provide the basis for a successful relationship.

      Women aren't trying to "lose" but actually want to secure themselves into the feminine polarity role in relation to a masculine man.

       

      Women want a "rock".

       

      So our Red Pill advice is to simply recognize and follow the "Law of Attraction" and play the masculine role.

      Wear the pants and she will wear the dress and things will be fine.

       

      Men who begin to allow themselves to depolarize (go beta) are violating the "Law of Attraction" and risking their relationship falling apart. But don't expect the women to "help" you be masculine. Her job is to constantly test your dedication to the truth ("Law of Attraction") and if you fall for any of the Blue Pill mythology you fail the Shit Test.

       

      So simply "delete" any tendencies to agree with the Blue Pill mythology... "Kill the Beta".

       

      The Devil's Advocate

      It's funny because the feminine polarity and the original concept of the "Devil's Advocate" are the same thing. Women are placed into a role where they test you for truth. If you fail the Shit Test then you did not stand up for the truth. So your task is to always be observant of the "Laws of Attraction" and never falter in the truth.

      The weak man falters and accepts the Blue Pill myths in place of the Red Pill truth and it's your willingness to ignore the truth that makes you in error.

      Women hate those who defy the "Laws of Attraction".

       

      • The Shit Test is a test for truth. (the Devil's Advocate)

       

      The role of the Devil's Advocate is to place a myth before you and see if you take the bait. It's willful deception on the woman's part but with an underlying motive to test to see how knowledgeable you are of the truth of the "Law of Attraction".

      It's all a test.

      The beta fails the test because he has pre-approved Blue Pill myths in his mind. (designed to destroy him)

      Women seek Alpha males aware of Red Pill truth... because they crave a truthful (to the Natural Laws) powerful man not some kid trapped in the Blue Pill mythology.

       

      [–]ampwyo 7 points8 points  (1 child)

      A lot of this resonates... I put way too much into my last LTR. The more I gave, the more she wanted, and ultimately the more she resented me for it in the end.

      Recently a girl I'm not that interested in has been chasing me, and I haven't decided if I'm going to plate her or not so I deflect with humor, don't respond to obvious bait, or give dgaf answers and I can see her attraction to me growing and growing.

      Its as counterintuitive as fuck.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      The women I pay the least attention to seem the be the most interested ones. Just gotta never care

      [–]top_zozzle 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      Or, you know... Just be willing to walk away, and actually do so if your standards are not met.

      If you're not willing to walk away, she's got you and will stop liking you.

      If you are, you have more power than her. Either that's not what she wants and she walks away, which is fine. Or that's what she wants and you had to put literally 0 effort.

      Stop trying to have sex at all costs, whores are cheaper.

      [–]n8dawwg 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      "Here’s the paradox of negotiating with women: THEY WANT TO LOSE. If they “win” the negotiation (i.e., they get a better deal than you), they lose attraction." One of the biggest mistakes I have made in my life was not realizing this. You must maintain a solid frame and elevate yourself higher than her, otherwise she will drop you in an instant.

      [–]TomFoo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      The more I did for my wife, the more I let her win, the more I appeased her or tried to, the less sex we had, the less respect I earned from her, the less she loved me.

      Correction: My ex-wife.

      [–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor 9 points10 points  (7 children)

      I don't negotiate with terrorists.

      It seems like I have created a paradox: even if the woman is totally attracted to you,

      Your attractiveness is part your capital. Sometimes it really is enough. Women will parade themselves in front of you, lift their tails and hope they are selected. In a highly competitive environment among women, they will outright bid for your attention. All you are expected to do is take them.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 29 points30 points  (6 children)

      I don't negotiate with terrorists.

      Women aren't terrorists. Women are not the enemy. They are just people with unique emotional needs. Once you figure those needs out, you can interact with them in a positive way.

      Your attractiveness is part your capital. Sometimes it really is enough. Women will parade themselves in front of you, lift their tails and hope they are selected. In a highly competitive environment among women, they will outright bid for your attention. All you are expected to do is take them.

      I'm sorry, but this sounds like ideological dogmatism. A lot of guys on this sub sell this fantasy where "if you're just attractive, women flock to you." They don't. Unless they already know you (i.e., you are a celebrity) you need to do things to get women. I can go stand in the middle of a party and look attractive all night and it won't do shit for me. Part of looking attractive is how you interact with her - appearance isn't enough for women to come to you.

      [–]dw0r 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      Attractiveness is more than just looks.

      [–]harsha_hs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Solid points. Just being attractive isn't enough if you're not Leonardo Di Caprio.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      look, you've obviously never been extremely attractive, or known extremely attractive men, this happens IRL.

      [–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

      you can interact with them in a positive way.

      Why? I am the prize. They will get what they need on my coat tails.

      "if you're just attractive ENOUGH, women flock to you."

      FYFY. And yes, they will.

      dw0r is correct. Attractiveness is more than your picture. It is how you carry yourself. It's what you do with your time. It is how you talk to everyone.

      Btw gents, women aren't stupid. Well, most of of them. They know when you are talking to them in the sort of way where you are gaming them. Some let you play your game because they are otherwise interested. Some go along to see where it will go and how they can utilize you. However, in my experience, this sort of talk is dangerous; it is setting up tests to fail for them. Say less, act more. If they were interested in the first place, it'll work.

      I talk to women exactly the same way I talk to men when it comes to social speech. Except maybe the part where I tell them to open their mouth.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

      Why? I am the prize. They will get what they need on my coat tails.

      You missed the point of what I was saying.

      Attractiveness is more than your picture. It is how you carry yourself. It's what you do with your time. It is how you talk to everyone.

      OK YOU JUST FUCKING AGREED WITH ME. Girls need to get to know you to be attracted. Just standing there being attractive won't get them to flock to you. Unless you are Brad Pitt, you need to interact with girls for them to like you. That's my whole goddamn point.

      [–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      You missed the point of what I was saying.

      Message sent is not message received. Again. Yet I stand by what I say. It's fundamental TRP: be the shining glory they want to huddle beneath. Stop wooing and negotiating them.

      Girls need to get to know you to be attracted.

      No. They do not. They will fuck a complete stranger if they get the right feeling just looking at him. I've seen it. I've done it.

      Unless you are Brad Pitt

      I like how you give a counter example. Hah.

      [–]circlhat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      This is one of the most well written post, My issue is I actually want to give women things especially if I care for them , problem is the women who respect me most are the women who I give the least too and who I don't give a shit about.

      I remember the first time I alpha window a woman, I would tell her all the time go find someone else, ignore her calls, only show up when I wanted sex, she bought me dinner, got me pizza bought me gifts, and even paid me money(gas money) to have sex with her.

      [–]BuddhistSC 1 point2 points  (4 children)

      So the one thing I don't quite understand, and this applies to most of the advice on this sub, is how you're supposed to have a great time. I'm pretty much not happy ever, and I'm definitely not happy in social situations. Am I supposed to just pretend to be enjoying myself? I'm not sure I could convincingly fake that.

      [–]Newreddawn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      That's ok. Depression is all too common among young men these days, and I've been there myself. You don't want to, nor should you, fake being happy. That will come naturally as you begin training your body and mind to experience joy in everything you do.

      Lift, commit yourself to your mission, find a social hobby that you enjoy. These are natural ways to combat depression. Even an introvert can find joy in social environments. It's a mental thing. Once you establish your self esteem with a nice body and new friends, social situations start becoming very fun. Do it all for you. Everyone deserves to be happy, but not everyone puts in the effort.

      [–]ConfusedPsychiatrist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Your username tells me you're on the right track. You must develop a philosophy that takes the middle road. You can't know how to be happy. You can just feel how to be happy. If anything, feeling "happy" is itself a risk in that if you think it will last or should last, you will fall back into depression.

      Peace. That oceanic feeling. Knowing you are god while also knowing you are human. That death and life are continuous. That life is just a game and reality is what lies underneath everything that appears to be. These are just some of the ways to capture that feeling. True tranquility cannot be understood in thoughts or ever fully encapsulated succinctly in words. It is only found through watching that inner pendulum swing back and forth between extremes until the pendulum eventually realizes that it belongs in the middle. Minimizing fluctuations in our emotional states is key. You can live in a feeling of bliss, or a feeling of being whole. But happiness as it is understood in the western world is dangerous to think that it can be maintained. The more you crave happiness, the deeper the depressions. The more you fear the things that depress you, the more depressed you become. Living in the future breeds anxiety. Living in the past breeds depression. Living right now and trusting life, the universe, God, etc. is the only way to get on the path that breeds peace. And the peace sets in more and more as we travel this path. If you need a loving figure to guide you in these ways of thinking, Alan Watts has many lectures on YouTube.

      By vibrating at a frequency tightly around what feeling whole or at peace feels like, the vicissitudes of life, especially women, will not be able to draw you away from your center nearly as potently--whether in the positive or negative direction. Stay at your center and observe the happenings of life and see them as they are. See things for what they are, and see yourself for who and what you are.

      In a more concrete and absorbable sense, I'll transition into this: If you are continuously depressed, you likely have had traumas that impacted you powerfully psychologically in your life thus far. I have never met a depressed or anxious person that didn't have some fucked up shit transpire in their younger years. Until these deep traumas are addressed. Until you can stare the devil in the eyes and smile because you know you've won, you'll never be able to have a healthy relationship with another human being. You'll forever seek to obtain from your human relationships what you weren't given in your youth during your critical periods of development.

      And life works like this: when we aren't given from our loved ones (family and other important early relationships) what we should (in the developmental psychology sense) have been given during these critical periods, once these periods pass, we unfortunately become the only ones who can give to ourselves later in life exactly what was missed. Our relationships and therapists can guide us to being able to give to ourselves what we must give to ourselves, but sealing that crack, filling that void, can only be done by ourselves internally. The flip-side here is that people who can do this successfully end up far stronger, more beautiful and extraordinarily more passionate human beings than those who were never hurt in the first place. The best poets, artists, philosophers, psychologists and musicians have all been profoundly damaged people at one point who found their centers later in life and channeled their wisdom and energy in ways that are often so powerful and euphoric that it feels divine not only to them but all who witness their lives and work.

      And as you explore your inner world, you will find things that terrify you and enrage you. Find what makes you sick with rage. Find what breaks your heart, gets your eyes glossy and pisses you off all at the same time. Discover what you would die for. Not who. Never be willing to die for a person. Be willing to die for yourself--for your mission. Our purpose is found in our pain. In our pain, we find growth. And we grow into our centeredness. Be passionately centered. Do this, and everything around you begins to feel orchestrated, planned, beautiful, like a well-choreographed dance. You begin to realize that life serves your purpose. You begin to realize that your purpose is actually you serving life. Find your "Why" and remain committed to that "Why" even unto death. Do this, and women will never be a problem again. Your mind and soul will become infatuated with a much higher order of living. You will fall in love with yourself and your mission. And women love good competition. Women love a man on a mission. We all love basking in the glory of a true warrior (except for cowards, since warriors remind them of their pitiful existence). We desperately love to be inspired by those who have found the courage to run their race with such ferocity that they clearly would die before they ever failed in pursuit of their noble mission. Women will be the least of your problems in fact. Don't be afraid to polarize your life. Align yourself with the flow as it presents itself in your life. You must do this. This is how you Become.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      You are an excellent writer and it is a great post. Would you apply (and have you applied) different rules to an LTR? My question would be how can you not truly, deeply give a fuck about someone you see every day? Someone whose wellbeing is key to your own kids happiness. I get the be alpha and do not offer trade offs but is it possible to feel that way about someone you go to sleep next to and wake up next to daily? I have certainly been able to maintain that attitude with plates for the whole duration of the relationship, but I do genuinely care for the rare woman on who I bestow the title of significant other and give an exclusive relationship to. How long have you cohabitated with a woman while "truly, deeply, from the bottom of your heart, not give a single fuck about her"?

      [–]Roaring40sUK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I think the idea of not giving a signle fuck is an extreme view to make a point.

      The question I would ask you (and ask yourself honestly) is why have you selected a certain woman, for an LTR above others? Deep down, it probably comes back to seom "value" you feel she gives..

      If she makes you feel good, why? Dig deeper..

      I think you can love women for who they really are but armed with RP truths, to help you..

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Great essay.

      Just want to point out that while women do seek out a "worse" deal for themselves by losing attraction for nice guys and chasing assholes, thats what mother nature intended for the good of the species

      no paradox here, Stud McGains is the right guy to make her happy on the deep primal level

      Wont anyone please think of the children?

      +1

      mods please point OP /u/ paperstreetvilla

      [–]Vespi23 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      My grandfather, a millionaire and top insurance salesman of his time, used to say, "Love is service." Thank you for posting. It defined what he was saying far better than what I could understand previously.

      [–]Luckyluke23 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Here’s the paradox of negotiating with women: THEY WANT TO LOSE.

      this is so good.

      Phil Ivey, is one of the BEST poker players in the world and have won MILLIONS of dollars at poker. What is his next best game of choice after poker. CRAPS. because he can lose at it part of the time.

      [–]J_AsapGem 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      outstanding post i thoroughly enjoyed this, need more articles like this, very well articulated and written.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      So men and women can't really be friends and lovers. She won't respect me if I treat her like I feel about her. I almost feel like writing off females except for sexual release.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      So men and women can't really be friends and lovers.

      No they definitely can. She just has to be the junior partner and do the asking and giving.

      [–]groupof7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      The asking and giving concepts are hard for me to understand - at least on a practical level.

      If I want company for dinner, I cook. If she doesnt reciprocate, Ill suggest she cooks dinner.

      Another example is women expecting the man to always pay. If she doesnt have the wherewithal to offer, I'll let her know that it's her turn.

      If I understand the premise youve described, then this shows too much investment? Mind unpacking this further?

      [–]Throwingtothesky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      This guy fucks!! Teach me your ways

      [–]somebullshitrp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      This is a great post, thanks for your contribution.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Women know that you can fuck the hottest girl you’ve ever seen in LA or Miami for $200

      damn, how about in NYC? Asking for a friend who spent $210 on dinner and drinks last night

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I think the title of the post is misleading, but the content very good.

      You obviously have read the negotiation book from the Harvard program, within it they outline negotiations as not giving and taking, but defining the most profitable scenario for both parties and making the negotiation about how to reach that goal together. From the point of view, your relationship to a woman should take into account that the relationship can give her the emotional stability, companionship and leadership that she needs, while it gives you the sex you need. People who think of giving and taking tend to be petty and marxist/socialist, zero-sum game people who are ridiculed in the book.

      [–]VickVaseline 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      All of this may sound cold and Machiavellian, and it is, because human beings have evil subconscious emotions.

      I think it is important to remember that human emotion is neither evil nor good. It is what it is. It is what it has evolved to be.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I've had good results from giving, especially as a reward for good behavior.

      I don't deny that; you just have go give after they do.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Women know that you can fuck the hottest girl you’ve ever seen in LA or Miami for $200

      Probably more like $500

      Young and beta guys still mostly have the illusion of everlasting love like love from mommy and women know this, so they play towards that fantasy and pay hookers no mind.

      [–]Expectations1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      The problem is, you can only act like you dont care if you are already a high SMV guy (whatever that means for you or your passions) . Skinny betas who play video games in their basement cant afford to not care, their game needs to be of a higher level.

      [–]trptwerp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      What about that psychological trick where you ask someone for a favor, and their brain makes them think they must like you to be doing something for you?

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      [ayylma0]

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      The Red Pill helps when you suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder.

      Don't RainbowRead me nigga.

      [–]lolbot69 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Need to get better at negotiating

      [–]ChickenBalotelli 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Oh man. The bit about her getting run over by the bus gave me the best laugh I've had in the past 3 weeks. I think a Final Destination-type visualization quickly entered and left.

      [–]barrelsroll 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      This sounds great and all but to me, the TRP goal is to lift, be comfortable with myself and don't need to read how-to guides to get laid (like this one) anymore and just do everything without giving too much fuck. This post asks me to give too much fuck to do something.. which is not giving a fuck to females. But to reach that I had to go through a huge thought process that is full of different of kinds of analysis which doesn't feel like the natural way to do it. Alpha to me is to be that self confident lifting ape that gonna nail all the females he wants without putting that much thought and analysis into it. They are just females, i get it, sometimes they bite but you don't give a fuck anyway and you'll nail a lot, just fucking because.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      I'm sorry but "don't give a fuck" is not a viable strategy unless you cut your dick and balls off and just give up on women entirely. Men are wired to give a fuck about women - we are wired to want to fuck them, to want to provide for them, to protect them, etc... And navigating around those emotions is a complex topic, which is why so many great men fail at it and have their lives ruined by women.

      That said, this article can be summed by "don't ask, don't give" but I wrote all that other shit to provide reasons and context. No matter should ever just blindly follow ideas without knowing why he is doing that.

      Alpha to me is to be that self confident lifting ape that gonna nail all the females he wants without putting that much thought and analysis into it.

      Ok then do that then. Why are you posting on the internet about it?

      [–]RPFlame 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Obviously, if something serious happened (like she needs to go to the hospital) you should help.

      How about no.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I'll take a woman to the hospital just because I feel bad. Pussy is not that important to me for me to feel bad.

      [–]aanarchist 0 points1 point  (4 children)

      may as well go mgtow and stick to prostitutes cuz that's some terrorist shit.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

      It is all a bit Patrick Bateman in my opinion as well. It is not possible to not give a single fuck about a significant other (sure you can fell nothing for plates and ONS). There is something in this post which resonates to me as almost a null point in PUA "fake alpha" syndrome. The negotitation stuff in the post and "she wants to lose" is really good. The rest does not sit well with me.

      [–]aanarchist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      As more beta slaves adopt red pill tools they'll come to realize they need to hold frame at all times, including when they're being retarded. Can't exactly sell yourself admitting flaws of any kind.

      [–]Endorsed ContributorWoujo[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      It is all a bit Patrick Bateman in my opinion as well. It is not possible to not give a single fuck about a significant other (sure you can fell nothing for plates and ONS).

      This article is kind of written from an "initial approach" perspective. Of course, eventually you need to invest and do things for her. But I'm just talking about the initial approach, where it is all primal feelings. But I agree with what you're saying.

      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      All good then. The post is not flaired LTR, hence my query. I actually agree with all of this as an approach/ plate vector so we are in agreement

      EDIT: having thought about it a bit more I do actually care about my plates a little. Maybe I am a softy and I give out comfort too easily, or maybe we are all different. Maybe your "do not give a single fuck"'is hyperbole and a bit of an illusion like abundance mentality. Either way it is solid post, the "do not care at all" aspect just does not sit well with me.

      [–]owlsden -1 points0 points  (3 children)

      Solid post, I found it to be quite thought provoking. However, I also couldn't help but notice some glaring logical inconsistencies in your line of thinking. Since this post seems to be gaining some traction, I would be doing a disservice if I didn't point out a few things.

      Women know that you can fuck the hottest girl you’ve ever seen in LA or Miami for $200, so their main “asset” is pretty much valueless.

      First off, $200 is a quite low estimate to fuck an HB9-10 (especially raw). Regardless, by your own estimate we can put the value of pussy at $200 per pop, i.e. not valueless.

      Now your post is about negotiating a relationship, right? Not just negotiating a one-time exchange of sex for money. Assuming you fuck every day (personally, this is something I would hold out for...) we can estimate the sexual value of a relationship with a highly attractive woman at $73,000 per year ($200 * 365). Not an insignificant sum.

      In deference to "pop culture," you disregard any value other than pussy a woman might be able to offer. This is a pretty cynical and shallow perspective, but ok. For simplicity's sake the value of pussy might be easiest to quantify, but what about the value of a housekeeper, personal chef, masseuse, or personal assistant? While every woman has a pussy, some might also offer other services which we could slap a monetary value on.

      Now you might be thinking, "An HB9 that fucks every day, cleans, and cooks, etc.? That doesn't even exist." And you'd be wrong. However it is so exceptional that only very high value men have enough negotiating power to achieve it.

      I haven't even mentioned the value propositions which are harder to quantify; access to valuable personal and professional connections, or the social currency of a beautiful and intelligent female partner. (In some professional circles a man with a respectable female counterpart will advance much more easily than the bachelor.)

      Finally there is the reproductive value of women. Touchy subject in here, I know, but in a discussion of sexual strategy can we really completely ignore this? Whether we choose to acknowledge (or value) it on a conscious level or not, there is an instinctive and irrepressible value in combining your genes with those of a high quality woman to ensure the success of your offspring.

      Second, women are always weaker in negotiations because they are hypergamous. If a woman has more value than the man, she will not even be interested enough to enter the negotiation; so she will only cut deals with higher-value men than her.

      Actually, hypergamy can go both ways when it comes to female negotiating power. But first, a point of clarification.

      If relationships are negotiations, then there is no such thing as "cutting a deal." The negotiation is always ongoing. The bargaining power of each negotiator is fluid and always subject to change. The only time negotiations end is when the relationship ends. This also means that a woman can't, as you say later, "lose the negotiation." She can only be in a weaker position at a particular point in time. This is where the analogy breaks down a little bit, but it is useful so let's continue exploring it...

      Realistically, parties rarely enter a negotiation with complete knowledge of the value to be gained or of the strength of the other's position. A negotiation is often the very process of determining these things.

      Likewise, a woman can't always immediately perceive her value relative to a particular man's, and vice versa. A relationship, especially in its earlier stages, is often the very process of determining this.

      A woman's perception of relative value can change on a whim or as a result of actual fact. A woman may enter a relationship with a man who she perceives to be higher value, but eventually that perception changes. When this happens, hypergamy means a woman is more likely to walk away. We know attractive women always have alternatives. Hypergamy means women are perhaps even more inclined than men to pursue BATNAs (as you explained), and thus they have greater negotiating power.

      The analogy between relationships and negotiations provides good insight and you use it to help tie together some key red pill ideas. However, you severely underestimate the negotiating power of women, which gives this piece a masturbatory air. High quality women in their prime actually do have a large amount of negotiating power. The smarter they are, the more they realize their value and leverage it.

      When you are realistic about this, you are forced to make an honest assessment of your own value as a man. How much negotiating power do you have? Where does it come from? What can you do to increase it?

      Most people are looking for quick fixes and easy answers. Few are willing to work day after day to improve themselves in the absence of immediate results.

      Its possible to get some quick results by simply putting on an IDGAF attitude and "acting" a certain way. Don't mistake this for the ambition, success, and abundance that go along with a genuine IDGAF attitude. While there may be some truth in "fake it until you make it," don't sell yourself short by pretending they are the same, and that they will get the same results with women

      [–]Roaring40sUK 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      Assuming you fuck every day (personally, this is something I would hold out for...)

      Why? Are you a slave to pussy?

      You make some good points, its a complicated and fluid picture. The BP told us that once we had committed to our unicorn, all would be good. This post, reinforces the fact that this is not the case..

      [–]owlsden 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Literally fucking every day isn't really the important thing, it's having that kind of sexual access with a woman if you so choose.

      If you don't have that access, I'd say your negotiations are running into some trouble.

      The point there was more to extrapolate the monetary value of sex-on-demand in a relationship from what you'd have to pay a good professional for one session, using OP's own line of argument.

      Of course it's actually more complicated this, but OP is naive to completely dismiss sex as a value proposition of women.

      [–]Roaring40sUK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Sure, that makes more sense.

      But isn't OP saying that sex is in fact thier only/main value? Or at least for most women, and that actually the value itself is pretty low, monetarily speaking if HB9 pussy only costs $200 a go?

      Of course, will quickly drain your account if you want this everyday.

      Thats the reason why women withhold, because they know its the only currency they have..

      But, I agree with you (and from experience) withholding sex is a deal breaker for me too..