MetaIt's that time of the year again: we need to have The Talk about 'alpha' and 'beta' (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by [deleted]

TRP goes through regular phases: intake of new people, education through repeated shouting of "read the sidebar" and ECs and mods getting angry in the comments, then intake of more new people.

The 'intake' phase is characterized by a proliferation of bad advice and bad theory, as newcomers start haphazardly pretending they understand things and, in so doing, reinforce each others' mistaken beliefs. The most enduring, widespread and thus indicative of these is the misunderstanding of how TRP uses the terms 'alpha' and 'beta'.

Given what I've been consistently reading over the past few weeks, it's time for us to have The Talk.

'Alpha' and 'beta' in TRP

What 'makes' you alpha? how 'are' you a beta? what should you do or say to 'be' alpha?

These questions flood the brains and posts of TRP newcomers, to be answered with imprecise and often incorrect notions derived from old-school PUA, self-improvement advice read in some god-forsaken blog, or even mainstream dating advice (eww).

If you want to have the easiest time understanding how TRP uses the terms 'alpha' and 'beta', my advice is to forget everything you think you know. I know you won't heed this advice, but later on you'll think back to this line and understand what I meant.

So, what do 'alpha' and 'beta' mean in TRP?

First of all, they refer to traits, not states of being. Traits are things like behaviors and behavioral tendencies, mind frames, physical features, social standing and so on. In a quick but imprecise way, we often talk about 'being' alpha or beta, but that simply means displaying a preponderance of alpha or beta traits in a specific situation.

Alpha traits are, by definition, those traits that engender sexual attraction, i.e. traits that make a woman want to have sex with you. They include:

  • Health/fitness: low body fat percentage, skin tone and clarity, physical ability (strength etc), mental ability

  • Masculinity: muscularity, overall body shape (V-taper etc), facial masculinity (large jaw, prominent brows, beard etc), deep voice

  • Dominance: confidence, steadiness, self-possession, leadership, aggression (not necessarily the violent kind)

Beta traits are, by definition, those traits that engender relationship attraction, i.e. traits that make a woman want to have a relationship with you (sex not necessarily included). Namely:

  • Wealth: income, assets, skills that are likely to increase your earning ability (e.g. being in medical school)

  • Reliability: dutifulness, truthfulness, predictability

  • Generosity: gift-giving, sharing of resources, sharing of time

  • Supportiveness: validation, patience, forgiveness

Do note an extremely important thing: while 'beta' is often used as a derisive and insulting term, beta traits are actually simply traits that favor pursuing a certain goal; it's the overabundance of beta traits and undersupply of alpha ones that creates issues, turning you into a provider doormat.

Do also note how many of these traits often mesh and merge: wealth, for example, can often come from intelligence + dominance; physical health can often derive from self-possession. It generally takes some amount of analysis to understand how each trait plays into the overall picture of a man.

Dual-mating: why we use the definitions we use

We define 'alpha' and 'beta' the way we do because it's reflective of the underlying reality of sexual dynamics, namely that women have two distinct drives when it comes to mate selection:

  • the drive to maximize the fitness of the offspring, by mating with a man who is healthy, masculine and dominant

  • the drive to associate themselves with a man who will protect and provide for them during pregnancy and child-rearing

While finding one man who covers both areas is a (literal) wet dream for most women, it is very much possible to mate with man with alpha traits (Alpha Fucks) and then cuckold a clueless provider, with plenty of beta traits (Beta Bucks). Indeed, genetic studies point to precisely such a reality: at several points in human history, nearly all women reproduced, while only a minority of men did.

The perfect fusion of alpha (reproductor) and beta (provider) traits I mentioned above is called Alpha Bucks, and as I said it's every woman's wet dream; so much so that it is universally featured in their relationship porn, such as the 50 Shades series (ultra-dominant, fit and capable billionaire who will do anything to have that special woman).

So what should I be, alpha or beta?

If you're still asking that question then you need to read more attentively.

Alpha and beta traits are traits that you can and should develop depending on your goals. However, there is a baseline of common truth here: no man wants to be sexless, hence all men need strong alpha traits. There is literally no reason not to have alpha traits and every reason to have them; hence TRP advises everyone, regardless of their situation, to lift (which develops muscularity, improves your health and generally enhances alpha traits), and in general focuses on enhancing your alpha traits.

As for beta traits, the crude reality is that you don't need them to just have sex. There are absolutely degenerate low-lives who are completely unreliable, broke and liars who still get laid like warlords because they're muscular, masculine and don't take no for an answer. There are Machiavellian assholes without a shred of kindness in their hearts who have no lack for women. Dispassionately, TRP notes that both these models work; whether that's how you want to be is your choice, but do note that while they work they're not the only ones that do, i.e. you don't need to be extreme Dark Triad to be plenty attractive.

Many traits that make you a good prospect for a relationship (i.e. beta traits, which again does not imply being a doormat pussy) often derive from well-applied alpha traits, or are desirable on their own: financial independence, for example, is a good thing for you regardless of what your goals are in life. You should certainly not rely on it, however, to generate sexual attraction.

In a committed monogamous relationship you will need a balance of alpha and beta traits; it is often described as 80% alpha 20% beta. You will need to be reasonably wealthy, reliable, generous and supportive; but all of that under the steering and direction of a healthy, masculine, dominant male core. Having only beta traits turns you into Beta Bucks and leads directly to unhappy, unfulfilling, sexless and/or cuckolded LTRs/marriages.

Finally, sexual dynamics are competitive. There isn't an absolute scale of beta and alpha: there is always someone with stronger alpha traits than you somewhere in the world, just as there is someone with stronger beta traits. This is why you don't need top grades in every category to actually get laid, even with beautiful women: don't make the mistake of countless noobs who get discouraged thinking that they'll never have a statuesque body, total self-confidence and dominance and masculinity through the roof, and thus shouldn't even try. You are competing with a pool of men who are the most effeminate, weak and unhealthy generation since the dawn of man: every improvement you make over the baseline already sets you apart and increases your chances exponentially, which is why people applying even the crumbs of TRP see immediate results; reaching the top 20% of men (which is, in truth, not that hard) will put you in such a situation of abundance as to sate most.

Closing remarks

What you've just read is a primer, a distillate of knowledge designed for the singular purpose of dispelling mistaken notions about 'alpha' and 'beta' and setting you on the right path. It is not all that you need and, most notably, it's nearly entirely devoid of immediately actionable advice. Read the sidebar, read the archive of stickies, listen to the advice from people who've won some distinction for giving reliably good advice. Most importantly, go out there and apply what you're learning, because without application this is just a lot of mental masturbation and fantasizing. Just as you should judge women by what they do and not what they say, so you should judge yourself (and will be judged by the world) not for what you say but for what you do.

[–]HS-Thompson 99 points100 points  (48 children)

I think this post is great and helps dispel a common TRP fallacy, which is this idea that alpha is something you are. As you point out that's a misconception. However I think it's still a bit of a misconception to say that you can define alpha/beta by a series of traits.

Being an alpha is not a thing that you are it is a position that you hold in a group dynamic. An alpha is a leader, and a beta is a follower. A person can be high quality, muscular, good looking, whatever, but if they are weak within the context of the group they are a beta.

A corporate CEO could be a top notch alpha, end up in prison after a drugged out car accident, and suddenly be the lowest in the hierarchy. But that prison gang member is not the alpha in the room when he's standing in handcuffs being sentenced in a Federal courtroom, the judge is.

That prisoner's "v-taper" and deep voice isn't going to do jack shit for him in a courtroom, because the group he is in that day has a dynamic and he is at the bottom of it. The next day in prison, that could change again and he'll be a top dog.

The concept of being an alpha is always contextual. It's a position held within a group. There's no such thing as an alpha or beta when it's one person in the woods.

If you're trying to figure out if you're the alpha or beta in the context of interacting with a woman, just ask a simple question: which one of you is actually calling the shots? Are you the leader?

I see this get especially twisted when people talk about money. The idea that wealth makes you beta is ludicrous. Wealth and leadership are highly correlated, and having money gives you power over people and situations. If you take someone who is an alpha in a group setting and give them more money they'll be more alpha, period.

The problem comes when money is the only thing someone has that is attractive to women (ie beta bucks) so they get exploited. A beta who can't provide either isn't anything at all, he's literally invisible. Giving him some money doesn't make him more beta, it makes him more desirable, obviously.

But in general, physical fitness, wealth, political or social power, celebrity, talent as a performer, confidence, and so on, are all things that are highly correlated with leadership. So they're related. But being an alpha is an effect of those things, it's a rank you achieve in the social group you inhabit.

Alpha isn't a collection of traits, it's a rank you achieve based on the values and dynamics of the group you're in. The post above contains a good quick guide to traits that are likely to be correlated with general alpha status in a middle-class western country sort of context, so they're likely applicable. But it does always depend on your surroundings.

[–]DesconocidoUK 21 points22 points  (3 children)


Essentially it's about power.

A whole spectrum of traits make you powerful. Looks, height, wealth, status, etc and a dominant attitude flows from this power. This dominant attitude gives tingles. Which is why you can fake power with game. Women want a powerful man. But they want him to commit and love. If you commit and go all emotional then this makes her excited, provided you are powerful and act like it. If you are not powerful, and thus don't act like it, then she doesn't want your commitment except to use you. Women will always look to trade up on power. But they will trade off power for commitment to ensure they can get a man to stick around. Then they will discreetly try to upgrade or have little flings to try to secure and maximise the entire set of power traits.

It's important to remember women do want commitment. They do want beta traits. But only from a powerful man. More powerful than them however.

[–]Psychocist 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Would highly recommend 48 Laws of Power if anybody wants to delve further into this.

[–]HS-Thompson 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Essentially it's about power.

Indeed. All human interaction is.

[–]BrodinsOats 12 points13 points  (0 children)

“Everything in the world is about sex except sex. Sex is about power.”

[–]___Jamie___ 1 point2 points  (4 children)

There is no such person as an alpha or beta when it's one person in the woods.

I'd like to hear your thoughts about whos the alpha in situations where you have 2 people who just don't give much shits about each other.

Example: You put a gay guy in the woods with a hot girl?

[–]kelvin_condensate 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What if somehow we were watching two isolated individuals try to survive in the wild? Wouldn't the one that 'tames' nature and carves out a relatively decent existence be more alpha than the guy that fails and dies?

Ergo, his alpha traits gave him a better chance of survival.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro 1 point2 points  (1 child)

How this thought exercise is going to do any good to your or mine personal development?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The exercise is being executed by people who still arent grasping the concepts discussed above

[–]Super_Solver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They could still have a platonic relationship, and one would take a leadership role if they wanted or had to.

[–]2 Senior Endorsed Contributorvengefully_yours 1 point2 points  (5 children)

You can be wealthy and completely clueless about girls, not a leader, and weak in every sense of the word, just as easily add you can be strong, with great game and charisma.

Wealth doesn't show you're anything, you could be a tech nerd, a kid with a rich dad, or a self made man, it's more about luck than anything else. Fucking eh right it makes a difference in your life and more money is better than less or none. As for what you're capable of, it means Jack shit most of the time. The same can be said about being tall.

[–]HS-Thompson 8 points9 points  (3 children)

Just to clarify I'm talking about actual wealth here. Like the ability to go anywhere and do anything whenever you want. Maybe not private jet rich, but at least paid business class rich, where you don't care even a little how much a restaurant costs, when you can pick any city and any hotel and just go there, or buy any car, tomorrow. Like multiple millions in liquid cash rich.

There's a certain ease, and a power over the world around you that comes with that. I get the sense that when people talk about beta bucks and "wealth" here they're really just talking about middle class still. Like people with good jobs. That's not what I mean at all.

[–]trp_dude 1 point2 points  (2 children)

No. I know many guys with private jets, and the majority of them don't have an alpha bone in them when it comes to women. They're alpha at work, sure, but they're complete pussies when they come to women. They are not getting laid, trust me.

Multiple millions don't mean jack where I live. They're dime a dozen.

A lot of people project and speculate about wealth when they don't know. My job is to interact with ultra rich every day, so let me tell you:

Wealth can provide the tools to become alpha, but in and of itself it's not alpha.

Worse, it triggers the beta radar on women so they treat you like a beta. I remember a chick I was gaming for fun, and it turned out she likes cars so I told her what cars I have. Boom. The entire conversation changed from "are we going to have sex" vibe to a job interview "what do you do? where do you live? how many people in your group?"

The problem is that these guys rely on wealth and nothing else to get women. I can count on one hand the number of guys I know who have private jets who are jacked. Two. Out of couple of dozen I know. They adopt a beta strategy by default. Well, that will get them laid but after they get married, the sex dries up and then the chick divorce rapes him. Happens again and again.

[–]HS-Thompson 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Perhaps. I wouldn't want to discount your experience but I have observed differently. I am casual acquaintances with 3-4 billionaires and a bunch of $100MM+ guys and I would say it's a fact that it has a power over women. With that said, I do know a bunch of guys like that who still don't get laid because they just don't have any kind of plan for what to do with it. There is a stereotype you describe that has the ring of truth to it.

I don't think we disagree, I'm talking about how the women are affected and you're talking about what the men sometimes do in return. Also I am in NYC, which is a place where money and power are part of the culture, I could totally see it being different somewhere like Seattle or similar where there's a different money culture, to be sure.

[–]AvengerSentinel 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We readers here at TRP are very appreciative that someone as successful and socially connected as you takes the time out to share your thoughts with us. I've learned a lot from your writings.

[–]DesconocidoUK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But wealth and being tall make it easier to be a smirking jerk boy who pinches the girls' bums and gives them tingles.

[–][deleted]  (31 children)


    [–]HS-Thompson 9 points10 points  (30 children)

    I think we broadly agree by the way, my intent was to just point out the inherently contextual and social nature of the alpha/beta dynamic. It's not enough to sort of act tough or even to be muscular, in order to really be a man and be dominant you have to be able to function in a group setting. But I'm pretty sure you'd agree strongly with that statement.

    Who are chicks in the audience getting wet for, the pasty white fatass judge or the bad boy gangster?

    Who are chicks getting wet for, a pasty white fatass movie star or some local musclebound dumbass who's always in and out of jail? It always depends, it's always contextual.

    This part of your post is worth pointing out though:

    You're using 'beta' in a way that makes it a synonym for 'weak, pushover, inferior'.

    I'm really not. I'm using it in a way that means "follower" and contrasting it with being a leader, with having dominion over your life and your surroundings and inspiring others to follow you, including women. A key problem most lost boys coming to TRP have is often that they really have no concept of how to have agency and ownership in their life and the ability to influence others, especially women, to outcomes that are good for them.

    [–][deleted]  (29 children)


      [–]HS-Thompson 10 points11 points  (28 children)

      A woman is standing in front of two doors. Behind door number one there's Jonah Hill, behind door number two there's a guy with a six pack, the IQ of a spoon and the testosterone levels of a prize bull. Assuming they never get to see either again, who are most women going to fuck?

      Jonah Hill. Every single fucking time. And then they're going to tell all their girlfriends they fucked a household name movie star. I can't believe this is even a discussion.

      I used to be an agent, I'm not sort of guessing. Women will crawl through the vents to get a chance to suck the dick of a 70 year old aging B-list rock star. Celebrity is intoxicating for women. They do, in fact, find famous or powerful people sexually attractive.

      But we're way off topic by now. We aren't really disagreeing, just clarifying different aspects that go into what makes someone an alpha or a leader. Physical attractiveness is of course one of the elements that's incredibly important.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (8 children)

      Dude, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Every babe I know would brag about fucking an athlete. They might fuck a Jonah Hill, but the EC is spot on. He's not going to get that pornstar fantasy, next level, super nasty, super hot, super gross, borderline dark sex that a woman just naturally wants to give to a Chad Thundercock. It's not going to happen. That goes for the rest of you on this sub. Even if you get your shit together, she's not going to fuck you like she's going to fuck Chad. Your wife is not going to fuck you like she's going to fuck Chad. Your girlfriend is not going to fuck you like she's going to fuck Chad. No whore, no matter how much of a whore is going to fuck any celebrity, billionaire, or C.E.O. like she is going to fuck Chad.. unless he is also Chad. I don't care how much you paid, how much you make, how many dishes you wash, or how many vacations you take her on. Chad Thundercock gets the best cut of the meat, and has her complete, undivided, eager devotion and attention.

      [–]PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Yes, man! Which is why you lift. People are confusing the power plays of social interaction with raw appeal of primal attraction.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      If you had to fight Napoleon or Mike Tyson in a fist fight, you'd pick Napoleon. You wouldn't realize that you're getting guillotined after, because at that moment - Mike Tyson is a scary motherfucker in the ring.

      [–]DesconocidoUK -1 points0 points  (5 children)

      I can tell you've never experienced power.

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

      No, you can't. You're an idiot. I can tell because of your wrong assumption.

      [–]DesconocidoUK -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

      Look at your little ego all bruised. Alas it appears you don't know what you're talking about. Because you've never been close to or experienced power. You just project your own attraction patterns onto women. Which is a mistake. But a common one. Don't worry, you'll learn.

      [–]DesconocidoUK -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      Look at your little ego all bruised. Alas it appears you don't know what you're talking about. Because you've never been close to or experienced power. You just project your own attraction patterns onto women. Which is a mistake. But a common one. Don't worry, you'll learn.

      [–]DesconocidoUK -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      Look at your little ego all bruised. Alas it appears you don't know what you're talking about. Because you've never been close to or experienced power. You just project your own attraction patterns onto women. Which is a mistake. But a common one. Don't worry, you'll learn.

      [–]trp_dude 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I have to agree with HS-Thompson here. The rich guys I know WILL get laid by the secretaries at work because they're alpha at work. Just not by their wives. I don't think wealth itself is attractive but power is.

      But it's got to be the right kind of women. The women in LA probably would fuck Jonah Hill, but women in DC wouldn't give a fuck. They would bang a senator though.

      Besides, if HS-Thompson used to be an agent, he's bringing data to the table while everyone else is guessing. He's got the gun, everyone else has a knife.

      What I am saying in my previous comment above about guys with private jets is also based on data. I know a lot of guys worth >$100M who are NOT famous, and they're not getting laid.

      So fame/power is worth a lot, wealth without fame/power is worth jack.

      [–][deleted]  (17 children)


        [–]HS-Thompson 12 points13 points  (16 children)

        You keep moving the goalposts to try to make the sort of ludicrous point that women aren't attracted to successful, high status, or powerful men. Whatever makes you happy.

        And yes, they'd happily fuck the ugly movie star if it was a total complete and permanent secret and be wet doing it, because they'd get off on knowing that he has options and chose her. Women aren't men, they don't have the same mechanism of desire and their sexual arousal isn't totally looks based.

        Of course they're attracted to your stereotypical adonis body and looks, no shit.

        But they're also attracted to power, authority, and status. They're literally programmed to seek out the leader of the group and reproduce with him. The ultimate female sexual fantasy is to submit to a higher status male. This observation is core to sexual strategy.

        [–]PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL 0 points1 point  (11 children)

        His point stands. Women are not attracted to that stuff at a primal level. Yes, of course women have brains and will prefer to be with someone who will bring other benefits. The aim of his post is to point out the role of primal instincts in attraction.

        I have never heard of the chiseled, high testosterone and self-confident man who cannot get laid. But silicone valley is full of wealthy nerds who cannot get laid. But if you are a chiseled, high testosterone self confident wealthy nerd, you'll get all the pussy life can throw at you.

        Who'll give more tingles, Jeff Bezos or MS-13 gang leader?

        [–]HS-Thompson 4 points5 points  (10 children)

        Women are not attracted to that stuff at a primal level.

        Of course they are. Women are fundamentally attracted to power, and are intoxicated and sexually aroused by surrendering to that power.

        What they perceive as powerful and attractive is a complicated combination of things ranging from social status and celebrity on one dimension to physical strength, washboard abs and a perfect jaw on the other. To be sure.

        But humans are fundamentally social animals, we strive for status in groups and our sexual strategies involve group rank. It's just as much a part of nature as anything else.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        It's power. Unless the man is too old and the power of youth trumps the accumulated power of an aging alpha. But even then the woman will find it a hard choice. Power and security are fundamental drivers of female attraction. Evolution made it that way. What stops it happening more in modern society is the feminist restructuring of power in favour of women and the fact that social shaming occurs to suppress the fire raging in a young woman's burning loins when around a powerful older man.

        If you just look at how things used to work when men had more power and social shaming didn't happen - then you see how women choose. They choose power over looks. HS-Thompson is on the money.

        And it still happens now. Just look at all the powerful male celebs with hot women 25 years younger, or more. If the women really just wanted a young stud you wouldn't see this happening. They will do anything for powerful men. Like men will do anything for a pert, nubile 21 year old feminine submissive beauty with an ass like two eggs in a hankerchief.

        [–]trp_dude 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Again, I agree with HS-Thompson. Women ARE attracted to men that other women want at a very primal level.

        People here are confusing female psychology from male psychology. Looks are just ONE of the factors for women that get them stimulated. Just because men can't get stimulated by power doesn't mean women can't.

        [–]domoli 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        Interesting argument. Two TRP masters whose opinions here are polarized. My dad used to joke around, "If Jennifer Anniston and Penelope Cruz were both 20$ hookers, which one would you pick?"

        See, for MEN, if we instead had to pick between the female equivalent of Jonah Hill (famous, powerful, but not particularly attractive) and the random 20 year old HBB, there's no hesitation in our choice of who to bang.

        Thompson, do you really believe the biological wiring of females is different such that they would tend to pick the Jonah Hill over the physically attractive/high-T/low IQ hunk for sex? Since we're disregarding any auxiliary benefits that come from banging Jonah, and any possible implications or social shaming that may come from banging Hunk, I don't see how Jonah would have a chance. He'd sure make some funny jokes though. (hopefully you can elaborate and clear this up-I think this is an important point to make)

        [–]PM_ME_UR_TECHNO_GRRL 0 points1 point  (3 children)

        Do you think a woman gets the tingles from a courtroom judge?

        Do you think a woman would rather get fucked by Reagan, Obama, Bush Trump, before a young stallion?

        We're putting these scenarios in a situation where reasoning is completely taken out of the picture, to explore what drives attraction at its most fundamental aspects. No doubt Obama could easily get laid, but again, do you think a college girl would get wet for him before the college middle linebacker? And I mention college girls because they have a lot less to give a fuck about, so primal attraction is the most salient aspect of attraction for them. Then, assuming we are on the same page on this one, why would an older woman possibly prefer Obama? Now consider Obama as he is, vs natural bodybuilder Obama? Which would be preferred?

        Edit: and which of the two would a college girl rather get fucked by: the star middle linebacker, or an identical star middle linebacker that runs the school's Democratic party?

        [–]TissueBabies 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        The ultimate female sexual fantasy is to submit to a higher status male.

        I'm going to hang onto that one. I believe it too that context is everything. If the main guy in 50 Shades had been 40 and balding with a beer gut living in a trailer park it would not have been a Hollywood sex hit it would have been a little known horror story. Ultimately I think a woman wants to give up everything for the "right guy." Think about the way Rollo talks about desire vs attraction. Power always creates desire in some amount. Looks are a part of attraction. There's a big difference.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

        You show me a group of hotties who wants some Stephen Hawking dick, and I'll show you my secret recipe for a great bowl of cereal. Hint: you pour 'till the cereal floats.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Stephen Hawking isn't particularly powerful.

        And even he traded in his wife for his younger nurse.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        What? Dude, he's one of the most prominent theoretical physicists of our time. Disability or not, he's well established and has clout in his specific community. That's how it works. Same with a celebrity. Tell a hottie from some foreign ass land about Jonah Hill. Yeah.

        [–]NeoreactionSafe 43 points44 points  (15 children)


        • Impulsivity


        I was thinking of making a top level post, but I'll just put the idea here.


        When we think of Chad Thundercock we shouldn't see him as wealthy. This is actually the often low IQ, but highly impulsive loner who knows how to give women the Tingles.


        • Women get the Tingles when they witness Action.


        So Chad Thundercock really doesn't need money or even the ultimate in good looks but what he does possess is an impulsive nature which doesn't give a fuck about the people around him that want him to remain passive like the beta males.

        The "true Alpha" has the ability to initiate Action like Chad Thundercock, but he also has the brains to be a good leader and Game skills to control a tribe.

        So you have:


        • Full beta - Passive, clueless, follower, slave.

        • Beta Bucks - Active enough to do a job and make money. High value slave.

        • Chad Thundercock - Impulsive, no money, could look good or not.

        • Alpha - Top level masculine man with full Game awareness.


        [–]grandaddychimp -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

        No. Chad Thundercock IS the alpha archetype.

        [–]NeoreactionSafe 2 points3 points  (2 children)

        Chad Thundercock is different than Alpha.

        Chad can be poor and of low social status... in prison possibly.

        Alpha means he has the leadership position relative to others.

        Alpha is "leader of the pack".

        Chad is a "lone wolf".


        [–]grandaddychimp 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        You have it backwards. Chad is the archetype alpha. Alphas don't necessarily have to be as high status/money as Chad, or could be in jail. Etc.

        [–]NeoreactionSafe 5 points6 points  (0 children)



        • Chad is the loner.

        • Alpha is the leader.


        ...it's very clear cut.


        Think in terms of dogs.

        The "lone wolf" is Chad Thundercock and answers to no one and leads no one.

        The Alpha male is the dominant animal in the "wolf pack". He has social connection.


        [–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 11 points12 points  (0 children)

        Awesome post.

        We don't help by using alpha/beta to mean lots of different things. Clarification is necessary and this is great.

        [–]Roaring40sUK 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        Great Post.

        As someone fairly new to TRP I see that many newbies, think of Alpha/Beta as Binary concepts, rather than a sliding scale of traits.

        Also these traits, I believe, can be contextual. I for one, am still guilty of displaying Beta traits more around a hot girl.

        Working on it..

        [–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

        You also need to note that these traits are relative. Gaylubeoil is a pussy beta faggot compared to Genghis Khan, for an extreme example. The same thing applies to provider traits too; you're not going to be scoring provider points when you're a millionaire among billionaires.

        This is a large part of what makes the modern world a much more complicated place for men. You're no longer compared to the peers in your village but to every man everywhere. There is a nonzero probability that your woman could hook up with Brad Pitt and so you are compared to him.

        [–]imn0tg00d 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        I don't feel that I'm having to compete with the men around the world for sex. These girls are all on the CC. I look at it like playing limbo, you can either clear the bar and get laid, or hit the bar and you're out. You don't have to be the best even in a room, you just have to clear the bar the woman has set.

        [–]Tmnsquirtle47 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Man, if only all TRP posts were as high quality as this one. Solid theory, keep it up!

        [–]Endorsed ContributorMentORPHEUS 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        Excellent write-up. A healthy mix of Alpha and Beta traits makes possible the most stable and healthy LTR.

        After internalizing this lesson, I'd recommend studying up on recognizing the difference between Shit Tests and Comfort Tests, and how to pass each.

        [–]Endorsed Contributorsqerl 7 points8 points  (2 children)

        Dual-mating: why we use the definitions we use:

        Alpha traits are, by definition, those traits that engender sexual attraction, i.e. traits that make a woman want to have sex with you.

        Beta traits are, by definition, those traits that engender relationship attraction

        TRP at it's core is sexual strategy, not relationship strategy. Read enough field reports or peruse asktrp and get an idea of the consistent pain points in men's lives. Then you'll understand why promoting alpha traits is the primary focus.

        How many doting men spend untold time, money, and emotional capital on a women only to be rejected, cheated on, dumped, or otherwise made to feel inferior. Then these same men watch some random dude hook up with the object of their affection with little to no investment.

        The message to these men is to stop investing time into their instinctual feelings which pedalizes women. Instead, channel all that energy into themselves, their self improvement, self awareness, and growth.

        Transform from a leech to a magnet.

        For the guys that have embarked on the journey; continue to grow, refine, and improve.

        [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Then you'll understand why promoting alpha traits is the primary focus.

        There's an entire section devoted to this topic, "So what should I be, alpha or beta?"

        [–]Endorsed Contributorsqerl 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        That's my favorite section as it's well written and clearly stated.

        My message is to the new comers who don't visit other aspects of TRP or haven't become fully aware of mating duality or guys that were fed the "be yourself" lie. To maximize your sexual strategy means to develop strong, masculine, alpha traits and build the best genetic version of yourself.

        [–]doctorwaffle1023 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        I'm fairly new to TRP, that ill admit and not try to pretend to understand fully. I agree with, and understand all you said except for the placement of wealth as a beta characteristic. I understand wealth can be a beta characteristic under the circumstance of woman taking advantage of men with out the confidence to do anything. But inherently I disagree with wealth being beta... I agree that plenty of, as you put it, degenerate broke liers get laid. Yet I don't see wealth as a beta characteristic, in my opinion it would be quite the opposite. I feel when "wealth is beta" it is actually more as the lack of confidence being the beta trait. I don't see how it is beta, when it is a desired trait by women in a relationship and/or sexual partner, and by your definition of alpha wealth would be alpha. Im admitting to being new to TRP, so its possible I am drastically missing a key feature of it, yet I would like a debate on this specific part. As for the rest of what you said, I think it was a great post and reinforced what I already knee as beta and alpha. Aswell as beta not being a person but merely the traits makes more sense then how I often used the terms.

        [–]no_face 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        Good post.

        I've noticed that in any significantly long relationship (6mo+) a pure alpha's woman will cheat with a beta, because she does have some needs that are not met.

        This is why anything longer than 3mo will require a mix of alpha and beta strengths.

        Secondly, its a chiselled jawline that's attractive, not "big jaw" or "prominent jaw"

        You can enhance your jawline by going below 10% bodyfat.

        Your teeth are very important attractor as well. Oral health reflects overall health and humans are attracted to people with healthy mouths. Do not smoke, chew tobacco or drink sugary drinks (including juice). Do not have more than a cup or two per day of staining drinks such as coffee/tea. Rinse your mouth with water after every meal and hydrogen peroxide twice a week to keep breath fresh.

        If you want to chew gum, make sure they are xylitol based and not sugar based.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        This. Exactly.

        She wants Alpha power and beta commitment. Combined. In the same guy ideally, or through several if necessary.

        [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        I think it's important to remind the new folks to take everything they read here with a grain of salt. I don't mean to undermine TRP principles or truths (I agree with most of them); I just want the new guys to continue using the same critical analysis that they used on the blue-pilled world. There's far too much circle-jerking going on here and this is, ironically, turning many people into TRP's equivalent of a blue-pilled, gullible "beta."

        [–]1jb_trp 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        First of all, they refer to traits, not states of being.

        I cringe when people say, "I'm an alpha." There's no such thing as an "alpha" or a "beta" and the more people talk like this, the more TRP becomes a parody of itself. Yes, we use those terms as shorthand, but it creates confusion at times to newcomers.

        I would explain it differently than you, though: "Alpha" are traditionally masculine traits (e.g. strength, dominance, competance, etc.), while "beta" are traditionally feminine traits. Everyone exists on a spectrum that is constantly fluctuating based upon your behaviors, state of mind, recent decisions, etc.

        [–]1randomperson123321 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        It all comes down to the following:

        Alphaness = Freedom

        Alpha Male = The leader of the group

        It's just that.

        Everything else is either about emulating alphaness or reaching alphaness when there is competition, or worse, just male hamstering.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Everything is competition. Even my reply to your reply.

        [–]Scandinavianredpill 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Upvoted. Amazing post, it corrected alot of things I have been reading here and misunderstood. This post is well written and seems to be a pretty accurate description of how things work in the real world.

        [–]Chrisrus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        You should be alpha or beta as the context requires. People who are either generally due to a personality characteristic are a problem, when they need to let another lead, or stand up to lead, which is context-dependent.

        [–]imn0tg00d 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        ITT people who didn't read the article, and are still calling themselves alpha and others beta...

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Good stuff.

        My recipe for Killing the BetaTM is this:

        • Underlying fitness routine of running & bodyweight fitness.

        • Judo. It's full contact grappling sport that favors decisive action. I am competing this weekend. If I can hold a grown man down against his will, do you think it's hard to hold down bitches? (obvs only if they like it....I've yet to find one who doesn't)

        • Rock climbing: It's a good balance with judo, hitting muscles less used in judo....it's also bad ass. If you can go 10 feet above the last pro on rock that's nearly the edge of your ability, is opening the cute girl at the coffee shop really that fucking scary?

        • Swing dancing: It's literally about getting my hands on strange women and making them do what I want. I mean that's exactly what it is. As an added benefit, dancing is all about physical communication. This has been helping my judo.....I don't feint on the dancing floor, but feints are critical in judo.

        All of this effort has gotten me into pretty good shape. Additionally, it takes up a shit load of time. Provider Hunters will see a guy who clearly has a life and no time for her problems. Younger women will see a guy who's fun to fuck, knows how to, and won't fucking stalk them.

        I'd measure dicks with anyone thinking they had a more beta background than I did. My mother was a first wave lesbian feminist man-hater.....and had one kid, a son, me. Oh yeah, she was a junkie too. It took me a long time to climb out of the abyss.

        edit: formatting

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Good shit right here. Judo, rock climbing, swing dancing. Good shit. This is the kind of stuff I like to read. I applaud you for making the best of a shit show early in life. Things that probably won't happen to you: divorce rape, being cheated on for years, raising another man's child, false rape accusations, etc etc.

        [–]Proto_Sigma 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        It's that time of year AGAIN? One year redpill anniversary today for me. Thank's /u/G_Petronius for the excellent refresher on RP theory. Interesting that you left out the Omega category, those without Alpha or Beta traits who are totally ignored, although your not mentioning them is ironically fitting of their description.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 1 point2 points  (4 children)

        Wealth and status generate power and are therefore Alpha. Willingness to commit the resources is beta.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        Wealth and status generate power and are therefore Alpha.

        A shriveled old cuck with 1 billion in the bank will get duty sex because some chick plans to swindle him for money, while the IQ-80 gardener with rippling muscles will have the same chick moaning for his cock even though he makes less than it takes to buy her earrings.

        Wealth is a form of power if you use it as such, but it's your use of it that can be an alpha trait, not your possession of it (although, again, what you do keep or increase it can be an alpha behavior).

        [–]DesconocidoUK -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        I agree. The gardener's looks are a source of power themselves, but he may equally be a pussy despite them and not get any action. Good looking betas who act in a feminine way get turned down all the time "I just didn't feel chemistry" etc

        But she's getting the whole spectrum of power traits with your example, but from different men. If the old codger doesn't act like a man, he'll get duty sex at best. If he keeps his attitude and flaunts his power derived from his wealth and status, she'll enjoy it. Just like all these young women enjoy banging old rock stars/celebs/rich guys who have the smirk still.

        The crucial thing is to act in a dominant manner with whatever powerful traits you have. And if you haven't got any, develop some. If you can't develop them, fake it with attitude. And know that whatever you're lacking she'll try to find elsewhere in some form or another. Sexy looks (fling) wealth and security (orbiters paying for her and doing her favours). Her finding it elsewhere may involve a full branch swing to a new partner, or simply just whoring it up on the side discreetly.

        So alpha fucks and beta bucks describes her seeking power (across the spectrum - tingle time) and commitment. Beta traits are only bad if you aren't alpha enough to give her tingles first. Often, beta traits mixed with alpha power plays get you laid when otherwise you would be dismissed as a player and rejected.

        Often these postings neglect to explain the importance of connecting with women emotionally and dangling the carrot of beta commitment. Which is understandable given men often give it up too easily and just get used for resources/attention/validation without the the alpha dance of seduction having taken place first. If you're too Alpha, you lose plenty of women who don't want to get pumped and dumped again. If you're too beta, you get walked all over and get no sex. If you get the balance right, and hold frame yet still romance her, she'll utterly surrender to you. This is why certain guys talk women into bed against their better judgement. Nice mix of alpha confidence and beta romance. Swoon time.

        [–]brinkleybuzz -1 points0 points  (1 child)

        You have cause and effect reversed. Many wealthy men became that way by exhibiting the alpha traits of competitiveness and dominance in business. It's their personality not their wealth that makes them alpha.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Not necessarily. You have plenty of accountancy/finance guys who are great at making money but soft and subservient to women. They get rinsed by them. I know people who have lost thousands paying for rings/jewellery holidays etc only for their girlfriends to jump ship with a more masculine man with far less wealth. The point is about how you act. You may act alpha to help generate wealth, or having wealth may fill you with confidence to act powerfully. Women notice wealth, but they notice how you act more. If you have the wealth and power but not the attitude they'll add you to their man collection then fuck the gardener. If you have the wealth and power and the attitude then they're less likely to fuck the gardener. And by HAVING the wealth, however you got it, it's far easily to flaunt power with a smirk.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

        Haha I'm new on this thread, so someone please explain "Chad Thundercock"

        [–]GritsConQueso 8 points9 points  (4 children)

        It's a slur you use for a dude who bangs your girlfriend without having to buy her dinner first.

        [–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor 8 points9 points  (1 child)

        Don't leave out the part where you bought him a beer at the bar earlier that night.

        [–]GritsConQueso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        That's on you though. He was going to bang her anyway.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        In the military we called that guy "Jodie"

        [–]Unlucky_Leader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Well timed, certainly needed. Thank you.

        [–]VickVaseline 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        How do I find the archive of stickies?

        [–]yaujte 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        What does it mean to be cuckold into a LTR? What does that look like? How can it be avoided?

        [–]SilverGryphon 0 points1 point  (7 children)

        So I'm a guy whom doesn't get laid but I don't act like an orbiter, I don't take orders from women and I don't seek validation from anyone except myself. If a girl tries to friendzone me I'll just ghost her. Sometimes I would agree to help them out with a problem and then bail out at the last second, pissing them off. I act like an asshole around women and have tons of unattractive women chasing me, whom I completely ignore.

        Where does this put me at?

        [–]Endorsed ContributorAuvergnat 2 points3 points  (6 children)

        You're still trying to put yourself in a category. That's exactly the wrong mindset that OP pointed out in this post.

        • Alpha = a momentary behaviour that made a specific woman sexually desiring you at a set point in time.
        • Beta = a momentary behaviour that made a specific woman desiring to associate with you at a sert point in time.

        At every given moment, you are a collection of some alpha traits, some beta traits, and some neither alpha or beta traits.

        When a specific girl shows sexual desire towards you, it means that you've been showing a relatively large amount of alpha traits towards her recently.

        When a specific girl shows relationship interest in you, it means that you've been showing a relatively large amount of beta traits towards her recently.

        Do you get the idea, or are you still trying to figure if "you are alpha or beta"?

        [–]SilverGryphon 0 points1 point  (5 children)

        I do get the idea but I don't know what traits I'm showing when unattractive women show sexual desire towards me. It seems that the more of an asshole I am, the more I'm chased by them, however I don't find them attractive enough to bang. The pretty ones just ignore me. It could be that I need to work harder on alpha traits (improve my physique) to get more attractive women.

        No woman has shown relationship interest towards me for quite a long time now so at least I'm doing something right.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Ha ha.

        I would suggest you're aiming too high with your SMV. You'll only get the hot ones if you catch them in the mood and drunk. Game can only take you so far. Develop real power and improve your looks then try again with the hot ones.

        [–]SilverGryphon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        You're right about that and I am working on my looks.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Ha ha.

        I would suggest you're aiming too high with your SMV. You'll only get the hot ones if you catch them in the mood and drunk. Game can only take you so far. Develop real power and improve your looks then try again with the hot ones.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Ha ha.

        I would suggest you're aiming too high with your SMV. You'll only get the hot ones if you catch them in the mood and drunk. Game can only take you so far. Develop real power and improve your looks then try again with the hot ones.

        [–]DesconocidoUK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Ha ha.

        I would suggest you're aiming too high with your SMV. You'll only get the hot ones if you catch them in the mood and drunk. Game can only take you so far. Develop real power and improve your looks then try again with the hot ones.

        [–]HierEncore 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        If you don't write for a living... You should start.

        [–]nonstoplife 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Fantastic post. The 80/20 alpha/beta balance makes huge sense to me. I used to be 20/80 (I'm guessing), but since reading and applying TRP and the wealth of material around, I'm shifting towards 80/20. I wonder if there's any way to gauge progress, or is it just gut feel?

        [–]ShakaLeonidas 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I think the whole Alpha-Beta discussion needs a revamp. there's so much confusion send inconsistency. Yeah there's a sidebar but every situation isn't all encompassing to the info provided. I thunk its heart info but some of it needs revamping.

        ALPHA and BETA Should be binary to the point of. "ALPHA FUCKS first and fast. BETA fucks second and slower" in reality thats what's transpiring.

        Donald T is "Alpha" right? Well Melania must not have gotten the memo because she slapping his hand away in Arab countries on national television and living where she feel like living. Celebrities and Athletes get pumped, dumped, cucked and scammed everyday as well.

        I get it. All this is for defining a philosophy and methodology But i think more discussion on Sigma, Gamma , Zeta and Omega traits are in order.

        [–]Big_Daddy_PDX 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Great post. It's not as common to talk about Beta traits having some merit, but you did a great job of contrasting how they can be a benefit. You're absolutely right that a blend of both Alpha and Beta traits are necessary if a long-lasting monogamous relationship is desired. Just DON'T forget about Fight Club!

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        What makes you, the OP, qualified to say what "alpha" and "beta" are?

        [–]1Entropy-7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        First point is that alpha is what you do not what you are.

        Second point is that many alphas accumulate wealth but their status as alpha is not the wealth itself but rather how they made their money. A barrister and dentist might have the same income and wealth but who do you think is more alpha?

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)


        [–]I_Need_More_Space_ 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Hahaha! Not with Obamacare, buddy. Keep the pipe dream afloat if it makes life better right now. Realize, you just resorted to validate yourself by throwing out a fictitious income.

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        I've stopped reading TRP because of the crap that is being posted here. About time a decent write up goes up.

        [–]bion2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Anger, frustration, and "You should know better" shows ignorance of human nature. When I go to church I rarely learn something new that I have never heard before. Most Sunday service repeats lessons we already know, but are in need of reminding. Repetition keeps the fundamentals sharp

        [–]circlhat 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        None of what you said is true though, Heath and fitness aren't Alpha nor Beta, this is blue pill emotional manipulation, you want to be alpha , than you better buy her dinner.

        I know heroin addicts who get more pussy than me, does taking heroin make them Alpha? Hell no, but it doesn't stop them from being alpha.

        Wealth: income, assets, skills that are likely to increase your earning ability (e.g. being in medical school)

        Wealth is not beta, or alpha, and wealth is always a good thing to have because it creates opportunities , from a objective stand point

        health > wealth > muscles/physical attraction

        however for women it's

        wealth > physical attraction > health

        so perhaps we shouldn't confuse self improve with women because it's every men for himself

        because they're muscular

        No, because they create tingles, you don't need muscles to get girls...

        [–]IAmNotARobot0010 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

        Just feeling the crowded out there.... I consider myself an alpha but am 5'11 205 lbs. Barrel chest and some belly. I don't really think a chiseled body does anything more than "get pussy;" i.e. it will not attract a actual mate to settle and impregnate (is that goals here? )

        [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

        The only people that talk about alpha and beta are the beta males.

        [–]imn0tg00d 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Did you even read the post?