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FinanceCompany loyalty is dead. Switch jobs every 18 months to two years. [Career] (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Denver_Luv3

I already said this in “Don’t End the Week With Nothing,” but today I read Employees Who Stay In Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less. In this case the headline really is the article.

Always be ready to job hop if you are in most of corporate America. You are unlikely to advance if you keep the same job for too long. Company loyalty may have been a thing when your parents or grandparents were in their employment primes, but it isn't anymore.

This is also why you need to live in a big city. Big cities have more companies and opportunities in them. The dating advantages of big cities are well known, but the employment advantages are similar. Avoid most jobs that will take you to small or rural places, unless maybe your industry depends on them.

The best book about working in modern corporate America is The Alliance.

Corporate loyalty is dead. Loyalty in marriage is close to dead and is at best an uncertain gamble.

This is a short post because there isn't much to say. The evidence is in front of you. You are only as good as your next opportunity.


[–]NYCSPARKLE 166 points167 points  (21 children)

I think 2-3 years is better than 18 months.

You can check out those last 6 months, and still have the opportunity for a bonus or promotion.

Plus I think 2 years is optically better on a resume.

[–]Swallowed_the_pill 94 points95 points  (15 children)

My father have been hiring people and working as a project manager for esentially his entire professional life. He is also a mentor for younger guys.

His two most important pieces of advice:
1. Switch jobs at least every 3 years.
2. Learn to say no. If you say yes to everything, more will be expected of you. You're less likely to get a promotion/salary rise and when you first say no because you're drowning in work, your boss will get angry.

Because he's followed this himself, he is constantly being headhunted for new jobs despite his relatively old age in a field that prefers hiring rather young people.

[–]MrCluelessFrog 24 points25 points  (12 children)

Learn to say no. If you say yes to everything, more will be expected of you. You're less likely to get a promotion/salary rise and when you first say no because you're drowning in work, your boss will get angry.

This segment confuses me a bit. Could you expound on what you are trying to say here? It might just be the wording, but first you advise to say no, and then you advocate against it ("You're less likely to get a promotion...")?

[–]user_none 45 points46 points  (10 children)

He's saying to establish boundaries from the start. By not doing so, you'll be the much despised, and very much taken advantage of, human doormat. When the doormat suddenly takes a different direction (yes to no), it's seen as weak and the boss sees right through it.

It's damn difficult to course correction a huge ship. Huge ship = either the "yes" man, or the "No. I know what I can do and can't do." man. Respect yourself and others will respect you.

I cannot stress this enough; "No." is one of the single most powerful words you can use. Do not be afraid to use it.

[–]sorceryofthetesticle 29 points30 points  (8 children)

That is me. I am the doormat at my job and I get paid like shit (<30k) to carry the team. I literally put in twice the work and have four times the experience as people who get paid a dollar less than me. It's taken me away from the gym because I'm exhausted and sick all the time. My weekends and nights are 100% recovery from abusing my body for somebody else, and nobody in the company gives a shit or asks how my life is going. Fuck this, I have to quit.

[–]JourneymanTRP 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Quit, but only because you have another job.

[–]Lsegundo 14 points15 points  (0 children)

You're a BP at work. Management does not respect you. Keep your job until you find another one. Just like having women makes it easier to get other women having a job makes it easier to get the next one.

It is funny how many parallels there are between careers and getting women.

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 5 points6 points  (2 children)

Start looking for jobs elsewhere.

Also don't burn any bridges, give them the customary 2 weeks notice if you do find another job. Being professional with your exit enables you to tap the company and contacts within it for opportunities in the future. Whether that's a job upgrade (like from a management position to a C-level position) or you know potential contracts for your new employers.

[–]sorceryofthetesticle 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Thank you for the advice, it really helped. I gave them 3 weeks, said I was leaving for personal/health reasons (not a lie) and then found some freelance work to fill in while I look for a new job. They were sad to see me go and have already contacted me to ask if I'd be willing to come back in the future or to work for their sister company. I said "not right now, but let's keep in contact."

[–]Endorsed ContributorRedBigMan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No problem. Glad it worked out. I left a fast food job myself and gave them 2 weeks notice. They asked if I could stick around an extra day or two so I was like sure. Anyways a month or so ago one of my friends I got a job there was saying one of the ones was asking if I'd be interested in coming back part time. Given my current job pays about the same, has less issues and gives me more hours (and don't constantly cut hours) I said no but when we get to the slow point I might take them up on the offer.

[–]richpianoooo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

dude you are a fool please take action start applying for work asap!!! i am 24 and was earning 46k a year and after 1 year of change i moved countries and now earning 70k dont stay man i was the doormat at my old place to leave!!!

[–]GlutenFreeVegan 0 points1 point  (1 child)

so did you quit? or at least get a new job?

[–]sorceryofthetesticle 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I quit, now doing freelance stuff and pinching pennies while I look for more jobs.

[–]askmrcia 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This is huge advice. I screwed myself over by never saying no. Taking on projects I knew I shouldn't handle. But I was new and wanted to prove to my boss that I could do it.

Looking back at it, I wish I had said no. Ended up costing myself the job. Fired me for "under-performing."

All worked out in the end as I was able to find a better job that pays $20k more for doing the exact same thing I was doing.

[–]Shakydrummer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's actually really sound advice. Gonna remember that!

[–]El_Shakiel 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I used to be a corporate recruiter and This is spot on. I'd frown upon job hopping every 6 months. This usually hides something. But 2 to 3 years is fine.

[–]∞ Mod | RP Vanguardbsutansalt 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In my industry hiring folks do look at frequency. 3-5 years is acceptable. Every 18 months as the op suggests would be a hard pass as you're too high of a risk to invest in.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is exactly how i've played the game so far. It works.

[–]epistemic_humility 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All depends on the industry. I've hopped at four months even, the quickest way to climb is diagonally to other companies.

[–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (2 children)

This Is dangerous advice and I can only agree to an extent.

Job hopping will increase your salary straight up. I job hopped twice in four years right after college and increased my salary by more than 50% . Now I've been with the same company for four years and make more than double where I started. But job hopping comes with major risk.

Risk 1: being labeled a job hopper. If you job hop a couple times in a short time span, you can explain it away with those companies not being the right fit. That's what I did, but it was true. If your resume is four companies in say eight years, you're clearly a job hopper and it's a giant red flag. Whether or not corporate loyalty is dead, hiring managers don't want a salary chaser they have to replace and retrain in two years. Don't be surprised if the opportunities start to dry up if you constantly move. Especially if there is any sort of economic downturn.

Risk 2: the grass isn't always greener. Landing at company with a completely different culture that doesn't work for you or a shithead boss are tangible possibilities. My first job hop was a fucking nightmare. Was it worth the 15% bump? Maybe if got me to where I am now, but it was a shit experience.

Risk 3: missed internal opportunities. Since landing at my current gig I've had countless head hunters and companies offering opportunities with big bumps. I declined them all. Now I'm working overseas making more than any of those offers and being taught a foreign language on the company dime.

Be careful with job hopping.

Edit: word

[–]Snowplow2017 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Sounds like your company has a good vertical ladder to climb. If folks see something akin to that where they are, I think your advice holds true... if internal candidates are never ever advanced.... then hoppity hop hop hop (but also apply for internal advancements).

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree for sure. Bounce if it's a dead end. And at the end of the day, if you're a good storyteller and personable, there's a good chance you can shake a job hopper label in the interview. But at the same time when the economy isn't blazing, you might not get that interview with a job hopper resume.

[–]wheel_ 22 points23 points  (0 children)

2-3 years instead, I'd say.

[–]JohnnyCocktails93 17 points18 points  (0 children)

There's no right or wrong answer to this. Some might even say 4 years is the optimal time frame so that all your RSUs vest and you can cash out with your total compensation package. That said, being loyal to a company for the sake of arbitrary loyalty is foolish.

[–][deleted] 48 points49 points  (15 children)

This has been inarguable since about 1990.

[–]Denver_Luv3[S] 29 points30 points  (3 children)

This has been inarguable since about 1990.

Yet word hasn't gotten out. IRL I keep hearing people and friends talk about company loyalty and how bad it looks on resumes to jump companies too often. I lightly air a different viewpoint and then let it go. Only reason I am where I am today is because I leapt at every opportunity to increase salary and responsibility by 30% or more.

[–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

its not like it has to be scheduled. In my field its about 3-5 years unless you really want to stay for some reason. I am always kicking tires in other places.

I also don't know who keeps telling you about company loyalty. there is none and there shouldn't be any. They should try to get the best product ( employee) often as well.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Even two years ago, I was still feeling guilty about changing jobs. Fast forward to today and I've had five jobs in 10 years, each one paying much more than the last.

Definitely keep spreading the message, people need to hear it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This only works if you trade up. I know people that have been working shitty retail jobs for 15 years, but keep getting in a shit pay. They never acclimate seniority.

I hired a guy to make pizza for $11 buck an hour. He had made pizza there 10 years prior for $8 buck an hour. He could be earning at least $13 if he stayed.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 14 points15 points  (10 children)

First thing I thought when I skimmed it. The "No New Taxes" Recession marked a turning point, but it was well on it's way.

You gotta look out for Numero Uno. Back in the day, leaving a firm was unheard of and the guys who left to found Fairchild Semiconductor were known as The Traitorous Eight.1

The only loyalty any guy should have is to his paycheck. The days of walking into IBM, GM or GE at 21 and walking out at 65 with a gold watch and a pension are way long gone.

1 Their story is really interesting for those folks who are interested in American Business, the founding of Silicon Valley and, by extension, Venture Capital.

[–]1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v 2 points3 points  (9 children)

Back in the day, leaving a firm was unheard of and the guys who left to found Fairchild Semiconductor were known as The Traitorous Eight.1

Today, corporate America prevents this type of mutiny from high ranking employees with Employee Contracts and Non-Compete Agreements that pretty much prevent you from working for a competitor.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/19/apple-lawsuit-poaching-engineers-electric-car

The engineers jumped ship to pursue similar programs at Apple, in violation of their employment agreements

There are many more examples...

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 1 point2 points  (8 children)

Incidentally, California strictly limits NCAs etc. I suspect they had MA as governing law (they were poached from a Mass company). Also, it seems that the firm is suing Apple for tortious interference rather than the employees.

Twice I've had employers try to foist non-competes on me and both times I told them to take nice long sucks on my cock - well, that was the subtext anyway. /grin So in one case it cost me a job offer, which was fine, because by the time they got to that point I realized how toxic they were. The second time they said "OK" and hired me anyway.

That said, I am trained as a lawyer and am uniquely positioned to negotiate, however, most people get fucked over on these things. They are an excellent example on why the Libertarians are so fucking WRONG about so many employment issues.

ETA: For whatever reason, Idaho is awful on non-competes.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

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    [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 3 points4 points  (3 children)

    Libertarianism was a philosophy invented by a bunch of responsible, law-abiding middle-aged white men who were disaffected by the Republican Party back in 1971 (imagine how they would feel now).

    The problem with Libertarianism is that it only works (to the extent that it does), if you're living in a community of responsible, law-abiding people...IOW, you need a lot of middle-aged white men to make it work, and even then it won't work.

    Why? Well first, you're also going to have a lot of women around and women are Resource Acquisition Machines. Nobody was a welfare state until women gained the vote and started demanding lots of "free" stuff from the gub'mint.

    Second, there ARE some things that should be paid for, communally. Roads, basic education, fire-police-EMS, etc. It just works better that way. I'm also personally in favor of some "safety net" type stuff in terms of preventative care (including dental - you'd be surprised what an effect oral health (or lack thereof) has on overall health), and drug treatment and diversion. Why? Because I want Timmy the Heroin Addict breaking into my house and stealing my shit because he needs a fix. Libertarians are fine with personal drug use because they can handle personal drug use which most people can't - and really, I don't give a shit if my neighbor Tony, down the block, sparks up at night so he can relax, I just don't want him out driving around and crashing into people nor do I want him stealing shit to support his habit.

    Oh, and what happens when you privatize the police? You get private extortion gangs. And when your privatize prisons? Suddenly, you get a lot more people going to jail who shouldn't be going to jail, because: money.

    Some things are better run in the absence of the profit motive.

    Meanwhile, with regard to the labor market, there is tremendously disproportionate negotiating power between employers and employees. If you don't put that in check, suddenly you're working 100 hour weeks for a bright, shiny nickel, until you have a Bolshevik Revolution (also bad) and institute what amounts to a mafia-run, kleptocratic state.

    Thus, without rational labor laws, and banning unions, workers get fucked up the ass, hard, with no lube. And yet HR Depts' - the "Elephants Graveyard" for people with no talent - will whine on about "equity in the dept". What that means is that they don't want to pay you more than whomever they have that has the shittiest negotiating skills or the worst life circumstances (too many kids, supporting parents, out of control drug habit) that they need $$$ for. "Equity in the Dept" can suck my dick. You wanna know who whines the most about their salary in my dept? It's the person with the least talent who takes the most sick days, etc., and that's NOT a coincidence.

    Anyway, the point is that Libertarianism is a nice idea, but would never ever work in practice, much like a less-malevolent form of Marxism.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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      [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 4 points5 points  (1 child)

      I grew up in the Northern US near Canada, in a community of mostly white people, so lots of "agreeableness" and not a lot of crime. "Agreeableness" incidentally, is why the Scandinavians the Anglos and the Krauts are presently letting themselves get hammered in the ass by Sand People instead of machine gunning them in their little rubber boats, which is what they should be doing. You don't invite cancer into your house. Anyway, where I grew up, there were some fuck heads, but it wasn't a lifestyle.

      That said, I am also half-Slav, so I will try rationality first, but if someone wants to be an asshole, I will beat them to a pulp, whether metaphorically, or physically, depending on what the circumstances require, and I will, upon occasion, exact "Count of Monte Cristo"-level revenge on deserving parties. If that makes me a mean guy, I can live with it. /shrugs

      Anyway, I know what works and what doesn't work, and "zero government" is nearly as bad as "too much government" although we have much more of the latter, at the moment.

      I'm not hostile to the libertarians, in general, but their ideas are unworkable. The Big Government types who hold up Somalia as a "libertarian" state (instead of a failed state, which is what it is) are worse, and that conversation ends this way:

      Me: "Kindly recount for us, in detail, Somalia's extensive history with limited government, free markets and civil society. Oh, right, Somalia isn't a libertarian state, it's a failed state, and it's a failed state because it was a Marxist state before that." /crickets.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      I have had non competes at both my adult jobs. First one, they basically said "not in the first 3 years" .. I said fine.

      Current job has one as well, but there are many ways to get around it, including getting myself fired. An unwanted employee is not competition by definition. I think there is a clause to that effect in the law but the name escapes me at the moment.

      [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      I said fine.

      What you do is fine for you; I have a "suck my dick" policy on non-competes.

      [–]modaman25 13 points14 points  (1 child)

      Watch Gary Vaynerchuk, his philosophies on work ethic for the benefit of YOURSELF as an entrepreneur as opposed to selling your time to someone else is super valuable. Even if it's just a side hustle, having your own business and diversifying your streams of revenue is everything.

      [–]TheDarkTriad 28 points29 points  (7 children)

      I left my job I've been at for a long time because my boss didn't want to give me a promotion I'd been going for for a while. Went from a crappy $27k/year to $52k/ year. Two years later I left the $52k/year job and got a $71k/year job. Best decision I ever made. I went from $27k/year to $71k/year in about three years. No college degree, just learned my field as best I could and jumped ship when the company had nothing more to offer me.

      [–][deleted]  (5 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]SergiuIlescu 4 points5 points  (1 child)

        Probably software developing

        [–]1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        Same story. I work in IT.

        Today, 25 years later, after never staying more then 3-5 years in once place, I am a contract IT Infrastructure Project Manager... making more then double what he quoted...

        [–]Philhelm 32 points33 points  (16 children)

        Part of the problem is that we fucked ourselves through credentialism (degrees, certifications, licenses, etc.). Rather than promoting people who have worked at the company, they just find someone with the right credential to fill the seat. A manager, is a manager, is a manager.

        And, of course, significant raises and even promotions are becoming more of a rarity in the private sector, so the only recourse is to jump to another ship for a pay increase.

        [–]alpha3305 18 points19 points  (2 children)

        I was ignored for a promotion this year because some 25 y/o with a Masters and no experience came into the company. I wasn't jealous just disappointed. Now I resigned from my position after 6 months of my manager giving important projects and sending them to important company business trips. Mind you, only senior level members are suppose to go. Even today the manager, who was a friend of mine, won't return my messages to socialize. The workplace has been less than what we expect it to be.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–]alpha3305 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          He didn't "unfriend" me just hasn't replied to my messages. It's been almost a month.

          [–]The_Lightskin_Wonder 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          Yeah just to show how much loyalty matters, and that its "just business". A company will gladly take you back for a higher pay than if you had tried to simply get a raise. The other thing is some companies cant afford it

          [–]greatslyfer 0 points1 point  (10 children)

          I asked my mom if the Masters she studied for 2 years came in handy at all for the new job she had that required her to get a Masters.

          She said no, lol.

          You would think people would be practical with creating jobs that make sense of the requirements they put on the job applicants, but noooo, it's just to look good for the company or they don't really care about practicality or think it through.

          [–][deleted]  (6 children)

          [removed]

            [–]greatslyfer 0 points1 point  (5 children)

            Yes but there has to be a REASON for the thinning.

            It's like thinning out people with blonde hair, there has to be a reason FOR that thinning, get what I'm saying?

            Plus it puts an unnecessary strain on the employee because they have to spend so much time and money just to get a degree that is only useful for "thinning". It's not very good logic

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

            its great logic!

            I love having fewer resumes to look at. saves time.

            [–]greatslyfer 0 points1 point  (3 children)

            So why not just transfer the thinning out element from a superficial factor, such as a Masters degree, to ANOTHER superficial yet none time-consuming factor such as working experience, let's say only people who have had x or more amount of years in this job role/industry are not thinned out.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

            because everyone can potentially get a degree. getting into the industry is a bigger barrier if we do it your way.

            [–]greatslyfer 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Well it's a smaller barrier if we make it easier lol.

            Plus, again getting a degree is time consuming, I would just move the thinning out element to another factor, but hey that's just me.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            The company values education not as training, but as a signal that you are intelligent and will be able to learn the job. This begs the question, how did our society settle on such a costly signal?

            As with many of our societal ills, the answer can in large part be traced back to the failure that was the civil rights movement. Companies need to show the government that they have objective hiring standards or they will be sued. Even aptitude tests are a no-go. See Duke Power case, or the many cases of fire departments being sued by minorities and women who did not like the results of internal examinations. If a company uses undergrad and advanced degrees as their source for picking qualified candidates, they are at least somewhat protected as they can point to the degrees and say well this is the qualified applicant pool - we have the correct ratio of gender/race within this pool of people.

            [–]greatslyfer 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            "a signal that you are intelligent and will be able to learn the job."

            Yeah that actually makes sense, also the fact that you know how to handle a big project and know how to manage your time effectively is a big plus for those type of companies.

            Huh, didn't know the origin of the need for such a costly signal, gonna look in to it more, specifically this Duke Power case that you mentioned just now.

            I do have a bone to pick with you when you say "correct ratio of gender/race", correct being that it is the one being targeted on purpose, when in my opinion I would say "uninfluenced" ratio of gender/race within this pool of people, that would mean that they don't care about any specific ratio, just that it was achieved fairly.

            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Well yes I think we are saying the same thing. I should've said "correct" in quotes, meaning correct in the sense that you won't get sued. I So basically, look we are hitting our quota.

            My understanding of the Duke Power case is that it basically established the principal of disparate impact. Congress passed the Civil Rights Act saying that you can't discriminate. Anyone with a brain knows that this obviously means that you can't consciously say I'm not going to hire black people or women. This case took things to the next level though - saying that we are going to look at the IMPACT of your hiring practices to determine if you are discriminating. So if your workforce doesn't mirror the demographics, you must be discriminating.

            It also established that the company bears the burden of proving that any tests they have for employees are necessary to determine competency. Think about that for a second. You start a business, you decide how you will evaluate your employees, and then if one of them does not like it, you have the burden of showing that the test is reasonable.

            [–]3trplurker 14 points15 points  (0 children)

            There is a very easy to understand reason, and it's not companies paying you less or loyalty blah blah. The biggest way to increase your pay is to gain more responsibility, on paper, and to always be move up position wise. Very rarely will companies be expanding enough to create the kinds of vacancies that ambitious people would want, so the best option becomes to jump from position to position always moving up ward. Companies are also disinclined to spontaneously increase your pay by large amounts, while jumping positions can do that. In fact you can start at company A, after a few years go to company B, and then a few years later go back to company A completely skipping over your old boss.

            The final reason is that most pay bands are controlled by HR peeps who are mega jealous and complete dicks. They evaluate a person's resume based on their ignorance, do a market survey and say "Person A is worth between B and C", it then becomes a nightmare for direct supervisors to raise that value without some sort of massive change. But when you leave to another company, your position and value gets redone with your old position as the baseline and whatever you can negotiate out of them, then your in that new company with the same HR dweebs and have to jump again.

            Had this happen to me recently, one company that I was interested in really wanted to hire me but the HR dweebs put out a value that was far too low based purely on lack of higher degree. Hiring manager went to the CIO and got HR overridden and then inflated my position on paper to protect it from them.

            [–]NeoreactionSafe 7 points8 points  (0 children)

             

            I learned this 25 years ago during the dot.coms.

            Every time you jumped from company to company you ended up in a better position.

            However, these days (I'm told) the recruiters have developed a scam where they now track the programmers and if one looks too "uppity" they will Blacklist them as thinking too much for themselves.

            Employers have learned to weaken the power of the employee.

            Things like the H1-B program were designed to flood the tech market with cheap labor and that's also weakened bargaining power.

            So the theory of jumping around is sound, but be aware there are traps being set. Best to at least pretend to be loyal and mask your moves somewhat in order to fly below the radar.

             

            [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Honestly, I would rather just take the lower pay and not live in a big city. I hate everything about big cities- people, laws, cost of living, lack of property... It's just not worth it.

            [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (7 children)

            I disagree with the 2-3 years commenters. Am in Bay area, and can tell you if you're not doing it every 18-24 months, you're waiting too long.

            [–]3trplurker 7 points8 points  (6 children)

            Less then two years looks very suspicious to employers, unless they are hiring for a specific project. Companies know that it takes a few months for a person to be completely integrated and reach full speed so if your moving around every eighteen months then they won't get as much for their money. Now two years is fine because they would figure you had gained enough skills to be promoted but your old company didn't have a position for you.

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

            Should be noted that you should be doing it while you still have your current job.

            You may have some defense to play (again, not in the bay) but if you're good and can prove it, you'll find a taker.

            [–]3trplurker 2 points3 points  (4 children)

            Should be noted that you should be doing it while you still have your current job.

            I would say start looking at around eighteen months and then jump when a good offer happens. I've been in on the hiring process and those with under two years at their last few jobs are treated extra suspicious. The worst thing that could happen is they hire you and then in the middle of a critical project you bail resulting in a failed or messed up project. Hiring manages really afraid of that happening.

            Of course none of that applies if someone's working on contract for specific projects with a designated time period.

            [–]CondensedMatterOnSte 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            How do you find time for interviewing? In software, interviews frequently take whole fucking day.

            [–]3trplurker 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            How do you find time for interviewing? In software, interviews frequently take whole fucking day.

            You do a Skype interview at lunch or after office hours. If they aren't willing to work around your schedule then they will likely treat you like shit anyway.

            This is the benefit of looking while your employed, you have the advantage of not being hungry and can negotiate or just pass on mediocre opportunities.

            [–]trpthrowaway2003 6 points7 points  (0 children)

            2-3 years seems like the sweet spot in Networking.

            2-3 years to learn and then become proficient at your job.

            Move on to next job with more responsibilities and repeat the process.

            Networking is a different beast though, it changes so rapidly plus the fact that there are multiple disciplines.

            [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Quickest way to get a raise at your current company is to quit and then come back in a year.

            [–]Velebit 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Humans are more and more alike animals now, remembering only our last meal and thinking ahead only to the next.

            [–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 2 points3 points  (1 child)

            I'm going to go even further:

            Switch up your job as often as you can

            Many people will say "wait 2-3 years and move up, that way you look loyal". And this is true, but it assumes you have zero probability of moving up before that time, or that there is a cost to trying.

            This is fallacious. Applying for a job and having an interview is almost zero cost. If you do ten interviews a year (approximately 10x the average that people actually do) then it is still almost zero cost. If you get a better job you win. If you don't then you don't lose anything.

            "Oh my god mattyanon, I don't want my CV to look like I can't stay still!". Why not? You got the new job. You can always... how can I put this... "creatively merge" your job history.

            Ever had a $10k pay raise? No? I have. Often. By switching jobs rather than expecting company loyalty.

            Companies are only loyal to money. You should be the same.

            [–]JackieBoySlim 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I totally agree with this. I just landed a 97k/year job that starts in 2 weeks. Guess what I'm going to in the mean time though? Apply for higher paying jobs. I've heard people actually say how wrong it is to do that since I've already accepted the job and gone through screening, etc. Fuck that shit, I don't give a fuck about a corporation, why should I give a shit that they have to eat those costs?

            [–]Endorsed Contributormallardcove 5 points6 points  (1 child)

            This is what I have done.

            I graduated college in May 2011 which at the time I had a part time job in my field.

            Got my first job post grad in June 2011 in Florida.

            Got a paid internship at a different place in August 2011 in California.

            Got my first part time job in Dallas in January 2012.

            Then got a better part time job in the same field in Las Vegas in July 2012.

            Got my first full time job in my field in Texas in 2013.

            Moved to Iowa where I got a better full time job in 2014.

            First "senior" level position in Seattle in 2015.

            Now have my first managerial/director level role where I currently am in Indiana.

            So many different jobs, so little time. People say job hopping is a bad thing on your resume, which is true to an extent. Get a year or two out of your positions.

            [–]Mchutj20 3 points4 points  (0 children)

            Moving up at a great clip! How much does a director level role net you?

            [–]prodigy2throw 7 points8 points  (1 child)

            Really though, if you're not owning your own business you're just a slave reading five days for two.

            [–]JackieBoySlim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            This is also true. At the end of the day, you need to own your own shit. I'd rather net 70k a year and own my own business than net 100k and still be a corporate slave. No salary can make up for being your own boss.

            [–]Nyghtshroude 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I work in a small office in a small town. Big cities are much better. I could easily do the same job here but for more benefits

            [–]batfish55 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Or if you're in a technical job. When you first start, they'll put you on jobs that will challenge your abilities. That way, since the current assignment is to complex than you've already done in the past, they can assume they can pay you less. That's fine. Sit. Work that job. And keep padding the resume. When your resume looks good enough for the next job, ask for raise and/or start looking. As long as the learning curve isn't flat, you're not wasting your time. Self improvement.

            And don't be afraid to skip town....or state...or country...if you can get better wages and/or a lower cost of living. Everyone should travel, it's good for you.

            [–]HiDefFX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Take a look at your work environment, where are your co-workers? Have they been with the company for 10 years and have only received one promotion with a couple of pay raises here and there?

            3 years is enough time to make an assessment on whether company growth is possible at the rate you want. I would only argue staying if you actually see a possibility to move up. Regularly put in promotion requests and always have job searching as your off time focus.

            One of the first mistakes I made in the workforce was forgetting that termination of contracts is a two way street.

            [–]HitchensTwoPointOh 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            I now put my resume out there at the 6 month point in a new job. Plan on doing one or two years but there are no downsides to trying.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            6 months may be a little short on timing. If you do it, I'd only do it once every few jobs.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Lol at living for peanuts in a big city to hop jobs and work your ass off while living in a shoe box

            [–]SickOfIt518 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I've been at my same job over 2 decades and making 6 figures with great benefits, tuition reimbursement, pension, and 401k. The only way I'm following this advice is if I retire or get laid off.

            [–]FormlessAllness 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            My friend that was not loyal makes 175,000.00, probably more. The one that is two years younger then him, is at 90,000.00k. Loyal. Think of your job as a contract gig. Think of it as you are paid to accomplish something. You want to pick jobs that allow to accomplish things that will allow you to bounce to another better opportunity. Its better to accomplish a few, important, widely known things then say yes to every little thing. Three massive accomplishments that are measurable look a lot better than vague countless duties.

            [–]steelicarus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            Did exactly this and managed to quadruple my salary for better and better /more senior jobs. Only thing I would say is to make sure to put the effort in for each role. Work hard, network, keep your nose clean and do personal PR.

            [–]2bad4nice1 3 points4 points  (6 children)

            Change careers every 2 years are you mad? Or are you still living 50 years ago when you could rock up pretty much anywhere with a 'ooriyt guv'nor got any work on' and start monday.

            Thanks for the laugh pal appreciate it.

            [–]MisfitMind00 1 point2 points  (3 children)

            In the US there's a very competitive market and you can easily switch jobs (albeit, by having to go to another state).

            [–]2bad4nice1 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

            Being from UK going to another state for you is like me going to another country in Europe (pre brexit shite of course) and i'm sure I could probably get a different job fairly easily if I felt like emigrating to Spain' Germany or Holland. But I wouldn't. And this article suggests every 2 years? So we should be changing country/state every 2 years? Get a grip. This article made me laugh yesterday and it has again todat

            [–]MorganTargaryen 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Me getting 30% raise every 2-3 years has me laughing at you as well, bloke.

            [–]2bad4nice1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Laugh as much as you want bro.. i'm pleased for you man good job

            [–]JackieBoySlim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            I don't see why this is so hard. I switch jobs within the same city every year or so. I've literally never gotten a job through anything other than just applying for jobs on indeed, no networking or anything.

            [–]jav253 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Yeah these guys must really have the right degree in the right fields if getting new jobs is that easy for them. For most of us these days just getting A job is an accomplishment. For most new grads it's an unpaid internship. The guy above that mentioned the H1B's gets it. The corporate fix to uppity programmers chasing pay raises is already in. And this happens to every industry with "in demand" workers.

            [–]notveryzen 4 points5 points  (26 children)

            Full disclosure, I've got over 20 years with my current employer. Staying in one spot, if it's a good spot, can be awesome. It gives you a chance to become really good at something and become almost indispensable. With great skills comes great leverage and with great leverage comes great pay. I'm at 7 figures and have a great relationship with the CEO and the controlling shareholders. None of that would be possible if I was job hopping every two years and trying to weasel an extra $20k out of someone for a short term bump.

            [–][deleted]  (9 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]notveryzen 0 points1 point  (8 children)

              Why would running a mid sized $50 million business preclude a 7 figure salary? I'm curious.

              [–]AladdinHussein 1 point2 points  (2 children)

              Hard to run a business and know the CEO and shareholders (unless they're all the same person?)

              [–]notveryzen -1 points0 points  (1 child)

              It's a privately owned corporation with several divisions. I run a division that does about $50 million a year. The rest of the business does about another $50 mil in a good year. Total revenue is $100 million.

              [–]Everybodypoopsalot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Good counterpoint. What field / industry?

              [–][deleted]  (4 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]notveryzen -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

                It represents revenue in USD.

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]notveryzen -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                  When I took it over it was $10 million with 10% margins. Now it's $50 million with 38% margins. That's why I make this much. My deal is 90% variable comp and tied to GP. I bet on myself and I'm winning. I'm very good at what I do and I deliver excellent results for the parent company.

                  [–][deleted]  (6 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]1Harry_Wangs 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                    Why not? Executive VPs of large companies pull in a few million a year. Partners at law firms, accounting firms, consulting firms, and finance make 1-10M+ a year. There are plenty of industries where senior leaders pull over 7 figures.

                    [–]RedditIsDumb4You 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                    Because his post history suggests he's a serials liar

                    [–]notveryzen -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

                    $1,312,756.36 according to my W-2 last year. But yeah, just keep switching every 2 years and wonder why you are making $50k a year when you are 50 and have no marketable skills.

                    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]rpjordan 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                      The right situation like yours can be rewarding, others not so much!

                      [–]900e52271f01adfb82e7 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                      This. I don't know a single person making 7 figures that didn't spend 15 years at the same company.

                      I could make 40% tomorrow by jumping ship, and do it again in a couple years but I would eventually plateau way before reaching the 7 figures.

                      Carefully assess your industry and career trajectory before blindly following a random study.

                      [–]2kez88 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      This is a good point. It depends on the job, you're more likely to get a short term increase if you hop around, but if the place you're already at takes promoting its employees seriously then it may be beneficial to stay there. You have to vet the company well

                      [–]Snowplow2017 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      We found the guy that works for a utility. (half joking)

                      [–]JackieBoySlim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      You're the exception you fucking moron.

                      [–]648262 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                      The drawback is you might become specialized within that company, and if your employer goes bankrupt due to new market conditions then you might be fucked.

                      But yes, job hopping makes you more of a generalist that specialist in my experience.

                      [–]PM_Your_8008s 11 points12 points  (1 child)

                      Nobody making 7 figures is worried about not being able to find another job

                      [–]648262 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      You're right, that's what the article states as well. You're more likely to earn 7 figures by job hopping often. But very few people make 7 figures so I do t think it's a very relevant argument.

                      [–]mushroom_overlord -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                      When did you get to 7 figures? Helps to know since the environment may have changed. Either way you're high enough income to the point that it doesn't have to matter to you, the rest of us probably aren't hitting that for a long time if ever.

                      [–]1Harry_Wangs 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                      Not if you want to become the CEO, or a high level executive president

                      [–]648262 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                      Why would you want that if not for the money?

                      [–]1Harry_Wangs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      If you're going to do something, might as well do it well. Besides the personal gratification, high level corporate execs have more power to shape the world than the average person. Money, power, prestige and status can be nice too.

                      [–]beginner_ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      Note that this is obviously stats for US and may not apply for other countries. I clearly violate OPs rule and no I would not be making 100% more anywhere, at least not in the same position. Hint: 50% less from higher salary means 100% more from lower salary. Even if they got the stats wrong.

                      Therefore what is very important is to decide whether you want to make career and with that I mean real career not some middle management BS or just get a steady flow of money with as little of a time investment as possible and seek satisfaction elsewhere. If you want to make career, yes OP is right. Switch often and to higher positions. If you have not made it up high by 35, forget it. Fail fast and hard.

                      Never expect getting promoted at your current employer. Plus it's shitty anyway suddenly being boss of former co-workers. Better to just have new people under you without history.

                      [–]Compeliminator -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                      all of that sounds like such a rat race to me. when i read things like this im glad i have one of the few good union jobs left

                      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                      I heard this advice given years ago. Only thing to stay your hand in moving on should be options for progression within the company you're already at, the option for free training/qualifications and of course making sure any company you jump ship to is financially viable in the long-run. If you end up out on your bum you might find playing the career mercenary bites you on the testes when employers are weighing you up against other, employed, candidates - it doesn't make a great deal of sense, but that's how employers tend to think.

                      [–]Senior Endorsed ContributorVasiliyZaitzev 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                      Only thing to stay your hand in moving on should be options for progression within the company you're already at, the option for free training/qualifications and of course making sure any company you jump ship to is financially viable in the long-run.

                      Yes and no. My job title has changed a few times over the years (10 years with my current firm), but my job is basically the same - but they overpay me. Why? Because it's worth it in terms of institutional memory, and if my boss ever steps off the wrong curb, they want me there to take over without a hitch.

                      Some companies have it figured out, but not most. Most want to nickel and dime you to death and then wonder why you bail.

                      [–]kaane 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      This is a very broad generalization so it is hard to disagree or agree with the idea. I think it depends on what you are trying to go for.

                      If you want to maximize you benefits and the quality of your life, you should have some rare qualifications. And this requires persistence and experience. Depending on the type of job, 3 to 5 years is a good time to get deeper in your field. Then, if you play your cards right, you will be that guy whom everyone respects and looks up to.

                      I think 2 years should be the minimum. When you start working in a big company it takes a minimum of 6 months to get to know the key people, who will make your work life easier. Another 6 months and you will become more efficient. You have to have a "victory" behind you when you leave your job, an epic sales battle, a big project or a customer success story. That will become your asset. But again, it takes a couple of years to build that

                      [–]EscortSportage 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      This is exactly what im working on now, my next move.

                      [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      Society is even more shit than it was before wow, I remember before you could work for a company for 20 years, your loyalty was rewarded and depending on what kind of work you do you could be making 120k+

                      [–]Alexinfinite01 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      I agree. I'm always looking for bigger and better from companies I work for because they're always a hairs breath away from finding an excuse to throw you under the bus. I've had jobs where they berate me for cutting corners on safety but immediately turn around write me up for refusing that same work for being dangerous. You can't win because they don't care and thus you shouldn't either. Always look for better because companies are always looking for am excuse to get rid of you for their profit margin

                      [–]Seoul_Brother 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      Honestly, I feel like TRP should focus more on some of these things than the 90% of people who come here complain about how they can't fuck a chick or keep their relationship healthy when they don't have the base foundations in place.

                      I read the second article last week as well. Definitely resonated with me. As I started a new job a couple quarters ago and planning on potentially making a move in a year with a career jump for 40-60% more pay.

                      I run a group within my fraternity for older and younger members alike to learn/ teach each other about the job search, salary negotiation, and resume building as well as a financial literacy and strategy group for them that focuses on eliminating student debt, investment strategies, forums on hot topics in the financial industry, credit card churning, etc. Also, these hubs provide a way for kids to find mentors within our own network.

                      We definitely need more articles like this one so that TRP is about bettering yourself as a well-rounded man. I think the building positive identify part is a little lacking since the focus is primarily on getting dicks wet tbh.

                      [–]jewishsupremacist88 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      the end goal of everyone should be to get away from corporate america or position yourself to make enough $$ while working part time. big cities and metro areas suck and are $$$ pits unless you make the big shekels.

                      [–]JackieBoySlim 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      For engineers this is especially true. There is literally no reason not to start looking for a new job after a year, because you can always just claim that it was a contract job. Got me from 50k to 100k within 4 years jumping around

                      [–][deleted]  (12 children)

                      [deleted]

                      [–]RedditIsDumb4You 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                      You talk about children like it's something I want.

                      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]RedditIsDumb4You 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                        You're thinking too small. America is done for.

                        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (8 children)

                        Yeah, you should definitely structure your personal happiness around crotch fruit.

                        [–][deleted]  (7 children)

                        [deleted]

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

                          Thanks for that nugget of wisdom mom

                          [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                          [deleted]

                            [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                            Yeah, how not to use birth control.

                            [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                            [removed]

                              [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                              What you are doing is tone policing and concern trolling. It's horseshit. Many of the boys here do not have masculine role models. They are soft and squishy and can't tolerate real talk.

                              You aren't doing anyone any favors.

                              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                              [removed]

                                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                Because what boys get in abundance in Western culture is only ever one side. They already get watered down, men and women are exactly the same, politically correct none sense. They get so much of it they end up hating they're own gender.

                                [–]TheLegionnaire00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                Or start your own company. Work for a short period of time and gather some money, then start your own thing so You can Be your own boss. You'll never enjoy life at it's full potential If you'll have a 8 hours/Day job your entire life.

                                [–]ap426 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                I'm 23yr old and making $74k now (before 63k), jumped ship after 1 year and 11 months so borderline 2 years.

                                I felt l wasn't being pushed enough. I really want to grind it out. I'm hungry and I wasn't being satisfied. Slow development...

                                [–]1PantsonFire1234 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                There is zero loyalty in anything anymore. The genetic trait that gives white men the sense of loyalty is being spit on by sniveling deceivers, primitive people and bitchy hoes. The only loyalty you will now find in this gay mulato world is that of your dog and hopefully your inner circle of family and friends (male).

                                The pendulum will swing and the moment these degenerates realize that they can no longer swindle the white mans good faith and intentions, that's when the parasites will realize they relied on him all along. Companies will burn, marriages will be ended and women will be left on their own, socially outcast from any group. Left to their on devises.

                                Don't feel bad for having a sense of loyalty, it are those who have none who truly failed the genetic lottery. They will always be alone and dependent.

                                [–]HypergaMouse -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                Wow I wish I had held a single job for 2 years haha. 26 years old and had almost 50 jobs hahaha

                                [–]ast201 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

                                Sorry but this is a pretty ridiculous generalization. No competent Google worker is getting let go any time soon.

                                [–]DickZinnendorf -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                                This thread has been brigaded by wagecucks who are slaves to Shlomo Shekelstein.