Red Pill TheoryGetting your T-Levels checked should be something that is part of completing the sidebar. (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by Sonifys

I really never understood why people downvote and blast people who comment the importance of healthy testosterone levels. There is no reason you shouldn’t get the test done.


If cost is a problem you can go to privatemdlabs a website that allows you to get the blood drawn at a local doctors office and you get the results without your primary doctor knowing. IT ONLY COSTS $85!


Once you receive the score I urge you to try raising your score naturally. There are plenty of natural ways to raise test. Squats, eating red meat, eggs, more fats, zinc, etc. Don’t jump into TRT without doing research and talking to a doctor. Also, don’t treat yourself make sure you're under doctors care.


Before getting the test done I was 22 (142 lbs) under 10% bf. Very active going to the gym 5 days a week.


I recently went through the process of getting my testosterone looked at and I had a total t level of 320. Some say that you can naturally bump it up which I did try. However, after a few months, I decided to talk to a doctor and was put on TRT. My current dosage is 150mg every week and I feel great.


Some of the biggest changes for me were:

-sleeping through the night (used to wake up at 3 am every night)

-extreme sex dive

-more focus and energy

-higher drive and competitiveness


Physically I haven’t noticed a ton I’m obviously a lot more cut but not like steroids. You don’t automatically get ripped you just are able to put on muscle where in the past it was harder. You notice that you don’t get as sore that next day after a hard workout tho.

Edit: Spelling

/u/RedHoodhandles: Normal t-levels lie between 270 and 1070 in average adult males.

[–][deleted] 104 points105 points  (72 children)

Doesn’t getting T injections have adverse side effects? I’m wary of those T clinics sprouting up.

[–]Sonifys 1 points1 points [recovered]

There are negative side effects. Testicular shrinking, life long decision, in some cases not reversible, can cause infertility.

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Man I’m bald AF already. I just shave that shit clean so I don’t look like a tall Danny Devito.

[–]djemdeeema 1 points1 points [recovered]

I am a physician. Very few men will have abnormally low T levels. They are typically caused by testicular failure or hypogonadism. Most men with "Low T" actually have too much estrogen. Adipose tissue (fat) has an enzyme called aromatase which converts testosterone into estrogen. Fat people have higher levels of estrogen and relatively lower levels of testosterone due to it being converted so readily. You don't have low T. You're fat and have too much estrogen. Hit the gym.

[–]ioncehadsexinapool 6 points7 points  (6 children)

So what would you say is optimal body fat percentage for testosterone?

[–]joedevice 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Optimal varies person to person as different people react differently to estrogen levels. Less is better.

[–]SuckMyPlums 25 points26 points  (5 children)

He said he was under 10% BF...

[–]Kolbykilla 12 points13 points  (4 children)

Most skinny guys think that. If you can’t even see a semblance of abs, you aren’t even 15% body fat.

[–]Sonifys 1 points1 points [recovered]

Was rocking a full six pack well before I got on it.

Pre TRT:

Bench: 155 3x8 Deadlifts: 225 3x8 Squat: 265 3x8

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

U said 142 lbs, not to hate on ya but I havent been 140 lbs since i was like 13 years old. Maybe for a man, being short is not conducive to high T levels since size gives status and status gives T?

[–]scarfox1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean if he's like 5 feet tall, 142 would be jacked assuming not fat. But he's probably not 5 feet tall lol.

[–]bestmaleperformance 1 points1 points [recovered]

Very few men will have abnormally low T levels

But we have less as we age correct? which is "normal" so could be 41 and have the normal testosterone of a 41 year old, but what he really wants is the testosterone of a 23 year old right?

What are the thoughts of boosting testosterone to peak younger levels as you age? many people swear by this, and still remain jacked, healthy and with a great sex life into their 70's

[–]djemdeeema 1 points1 points [recovered]

Testosterone supplementation comes with a slew of negative side effects. There is no established normal range regarding age group. As you age we expect it to drop, but I’ve seen 70 year olds with T in the high triple digits and 20 year olds with it in the low 100s. All of them are normal.

Lose weight first before anything.

[–]FreeRadical5 6 points7 points  (6 children)

This is ironic because trying to lose weight is what dropped my T levels off a cliff (confirmed by blood tests).

Low T levels are strongly linked to large caloric deficits: https://www.anabolicmen.com/caloric-intake-testosterone/

[–]OddBuzzword 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Damn I think that's what did it for me too. I went from about 170 to 130 in like a year and a half.

[–]NakedAndBehindYou 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Did your T levels stay low after the weight loss period was over?

[–]FreeRadical5 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I actually just discovered this and went back to high caloric intake and working out hard core. I haven't had my testosterone tested since but based on symptoms I'm certain it has gone through the roof. Haven't felt like this in a long time.

[–]dogchrist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

you don't need to focus on losing weight if you want to get jacked, you can use the weight as a lattice to build muscle on, just excercize and eat vegetables. focus on being healthy rather then "losing weight" if all your interested in is being masculine and healthy. that is if you aren't dangerously obese.

[–]duffman7050 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What are the negative side effects of injecting enough T to get your T levels WNL?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are choosing a book for reading

[–]daxxipro 9 points10 points  (9 children)

This is false on every level.

Your balls only shrink on a cycle if you are surpassing your natural T levels. So in an instance like OP, with TRT, the T that is injected is only to supplement what is missing so you are naturally on a normal level. Your balls are still doing their job.

Bodybuilders, powerlifters, etc who take 500mg of test a week do have their balls shrink because of the lack of T that is naturally being produced but even then it is only temporary. When the cycle is over (aka, they stop injecting T) the testicles will start producing T again - therefor, will return back to normal size.

Edit: Infertility is an issue for long term steroid users who are exceeding an extreme amount past their natural T levels, not on TRT.

[–]Timthetiny 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Go look at the testosterone subreddit. Testicular shrinkage is normal even at physiological doses and HCG is usually prescribed to combat this.

You are wrong on every level.

[–]HugeMongo 14 points15 points  (1 child)

the T that is injected is only to supplement what is missing so you are naturally on a normal level. Your balls are still doing their job.

Why would you talk about something you know nothing about? It's called REPLACEMENT therapy for a reason. Unless you take HCG your balls will shrink.

[–]Sonifys 1 points1 points [recovered]

I've definitely read about infertility in TRT users which is why doctors recommend HCG when trying to have a child.

Personally, I have definitely noticed a shrinking of testicles.


[–]MillionaireSexbomb 2 points3 points  (1 child)

They get a little softer too. HCG can reduce the shrinkage and PCT can help with the recovery but I don’t believe it’s a fulll one

[–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Your balls only shrink on a cycle if you are surpassing your natural T levels. So in an instance like OP, with TRT, the T that is injected is only to supplement what is missing so you are naturally on a normal level. Your balls are still doing their job.

Bullshit. Go educate yourself because posting here on that matter again.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Any exogenous test will Down regulate and shut you down period

[–]ZeusTheTrueGod 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Almost everything can be prevented or detected early.

1) You may not need to use T injection, I'm on HCG 1500 IU every other day and this gives me T of 1800 ng/dL for last 4 months. Guess how I'm feeling! 2) HCG as small as 500 IU every 7 days guarantees that your eggs do not get small. 3) Fertility skyrockets on HCG + T 4) Water retention, high E2, hematocrit should be checked for, as well as gyno, but that is absolutely avoidable.

[–]pussyaficianado 7 points8 points  (6 children)

As above said plus potentially increased risk of prostate enlargement, heart problems, blood pressure.

[–]Westernhagen 14 points15 points  (5 children)

[–]Systral 6 points7 points  (4 children)

There is a difference between t injections and naturally high t

[–]Westernhagen 11 points12 points  (3 children)

All those articles refer to testosterone therapy (i.e., injections) and show that TRT does not create additional risk of heart attack or prostate cancer.

[–]yomo86 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes and no. T-levels are maintained by your testicles and a small amount in the andrenal region of your body.

Taking T to substitute a deficiency is only a viable option without side-effects if and only if your body will not produce an amount deemed to be sufficient, no matter what.

Let's say a doctor tells you, you need T-injections.

The best way is to try to eat clean, exercise and supplement zinc, vit D and C, which is a standard advice anyway.

Only if those fail significantly you should pursue the option of T-injections. While reaching a certain amount of T is beneficial substituting your T-levels for a prolonged time will kill any capacity to reach said amount naturally as your body grows accustomed the substitution.

[–]RedHoodhandles 37 points38 points  (39 children)

For anyone wondering because OP didn't post it. Normal t-levels lie between 270 and 1070 in average adult males.

[–]scruffys_enigma 80 points81 points  (33 children)

Seems like a tremendous range

[–]anuddahshoah 29 points30 points  (14 children)

avg test declines as you age, test levels from every age group is now "healthy" for every age group

ie 90yo with 270 ng/dL is "healthy" for adult males and healthy for their age group (normal) 22 yo male with 270 ng/dL is "healthy" for adult males but missing 50-80% of his test for his age group

[–]BobbyPeru 6 points7 points  (13 children)

This is the part doctors often overlook. My T level was 425, which is a bit low for my age (close to 50).

I went to see a urologist, and he wouldn’t even consider T unless it was in the 200 range.

[–]DamnDirty_Ape 1 points1 points [recovered]

Tell him you are having trouble with sex drive, energy levels, mood, joint aches etc.

I'm 49, was in the 300s, and insisted my doc put me on or else I'd go find one that would. He gave me no problems and now I'm at 980 ng/dl from 200mg per week. Feel like a boss again. I also take a small amount of aromitase inhibitor to keep estrogen levels at bay.

[–]OddBuzzword 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I'm 19 and mine is in the lower 300s... Is that really bad? My endocrinologist didn't say anything about it.

[–]cBIGONE 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Can everyone take this aromitase inhibitor Anyway? Would that help without going on TRT?

[–]fastnail 0 points1 point  (1 child)

DamnDirty_Ape, What Aromitase inhibitor do you take and doses?

[–]anothdae 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So what doctor overlooked what?

[–]asotranq 15 points16 points  (14 children)

Normally people never do any physical activity that would benefit from higher testosterone. There's not much benefit to being at the higher end in modern society other than it being more selected for, everything associated with higher test is attractive to women.

[–]scruffys_enigma 12 points13 points  (13 children)

What did you mean by there not being much benefit? Isn't the benefit the reason why women are selecting for it?

[–]asotranq 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Talk like that will get people demanding your head on a stick in the real world, sadly some obvious truths aren't allowed to be said or even thought about.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMarsupian 7 points8 points  (9 children)

No obvious benefits for normal non RPd people who will just be themselves and find their one true love. Women selecting on test related features and behaviors is not a widely accepted truth.

[–]azonian91 6 points7 points  (0 children)

it is. i wonder if OP works for a certain pharmaceutical...

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

However your Testosterone binds to proteins in your blood stream so it isn't absorbed by your body right away. Only ~2% is is free in your blood stream, and it's this Testosterone that is active in your body. These two numbers (total t, free t) may not align; One can be high and the other low. Free T is just as important if not more than total

[–]king_of_the_potato_p 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Lol well I can tell you as an example the try guys from buzzfeed (only know this from another site making fun of them) their t scores were all under 350, some as low as mid to low 200's.

Mean while Im a blue collar, likes to hunt, fish and lift type with nerd hobbies mixed in and my last T score test was a few years ago, it was 850~.

[–]SpecialSpnk 10 points11 points  (2 children)

Why does not one person talk about testosterone injections not approved by a physician. Cycling is prob something many members do that is not often talked about

[–]SouthernFit 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Proper hormone balance will fix so many issues its not even funny.

[–]yasma99 9 points10 points  (9 children)

I was diagnosed with low T. Around 150-200 in the 3 tests I took. My doctor didn't want to give me Testosterone though because my sex drive and ed were both fine. Didn't care about any other symptoms. I started taking 110MG a week of Test Enanthate myself 9 months ago. Easily the most life changing thing I've ever done.

I sleep through the night now. My day to day drive for life is through the roof. My strength gains are crazy. My shoulders/traps/lats seemed to explode in the first month. I get morning wood. I can take command of situations better and have a clearer mind. If anyone has ANY questions regarding this process ask away.

[–]OmnidirectionalMap 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I have been considering getting my levels checked for some time. What were your symptoms like before taking Test Enathate? I'm really curious because in terms of puberty and gaining weight/sexually I did not develop well. I weighed around 90lbs when I was 16 and didn't grow like the other men in the family (dad, brothers all 6'+, me 5'6" might be the milkmans son). I've reigned in my diet to be clean, cut out sugars, exercise 4 days a week with lifting and cardio, get 8-9 hours of sleep a night and I still feel so tired. My mind is becoming increasingly slower over time and I just can't keep an erection. If I see a good looking woman in public I just don't have the sexual thoughts anymore like I did a few years prior. Even something such as porn can barely get me erect anymore. What was your experience before and after taking testosterone?

[–]yasma99 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Get tested.

I would have guessed I had decent testosterone. I went for fertility stuff and they measured my test/sperm count as we couldn't get pregnant.

My testosterone was super low but my sperm count was through the roof so they didn't care at all. I also still had a very good sex drive and erections were fine. I couldn't sleep though, I was depressed, lethargic, low drive etc. I was lifting 5x a week and eating well though and was plateauing with strength gains when I felt I should have been progressing.

After taking it everything has changed. I'd honestly only take it for the sleep if that's all it did. I actually sleep through the night now.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just go get tested. It's not a big deal. Best case scenario you know you're healthy, other best case scenario you fix something that's wrong and improve your life. Can't lose.

[–]NiceTryDisaster 1 point2 points  (2 children)

What's the ideal T number for men in the 20-30 age number?

[–]yasma99 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Naturally or boosted? I'd say like 500-600 would be ideal naturally.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Average in this range for total T is in the mid 700's. But there is such a plethora of other hormones that affect how you feel and can suppress the effects of testosterone that you need the whole picture to see what your body needs. Estrogen, prolactin, free t, WBC and rbc, SHBG, albumin, tsh. Just go get full blood work if you want to know. The (low?) testosterone sub has a good sidebar to educate yourself on it

[–]Frietjeman 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Test Enanthate

This all you used, or other supplements too?

Don’t you have to keep you estrogen in check when boosting test?

[–]yasma99 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I HAVE aramidex on hand, some weeks i'll take 1/4 of a pill per week. My bloods had my estrogen a little high but still in reference range. When you're only taking 100ish test enanthate a week you shouldn't need an AI.

[–]NotMeAtAll2091 1 points1 points [recovered]

47/M here.

I've been on TRT for the past 1+ years, and on low-dose HGH for the past 8 months, so I'll throw in my two cents. I'm done having kiddos, so less worried about some of the side effects.

I've been through a pretty massive transformation over the past 22 months or so. I had dropped 50 lbs. and gotten my diet and lifting on point before starting TRT. So freaking glad I did.

That said, TRT had a major definite improvement on several areas of my life. Having a few months on just the TRT, it pretty clearly had the following effects (in my opinion):

  1. Better results from my workouts. Stronger. Increased muscle mass.
  2. Increased confidence and feelings of dominance.
  3. Lowered my voice, in a good way.
  4. Increased libido.
  5. Even with HCG, my balls did get a bit smaller. This is a small price to pay for me, given the overall benefits to my sexual health.
  6. I swear higher testosterone makes women "want to be near me" in ways they don't quite understand. And I believe higher testosterone levels may even increase a woman's liklihood to orgasm. Not humble bragging, but women want to be physically near me and they just orgasm much more frequently for me than before TRT/HGH, and obviously especially before my transformation. This is a BELIEF on my part.
  7. I think it has given me a stronger chin? The weight loss obviously contributes too.
  8. Had to add Anastrozole (AI inhibitor), as my estrogen got out of whack when I first started. No biggie.

Then, I added HGH to the mix. All of this through a local men's clinic. This stuff is like magic I swear. Takes a while to notice, but I believe it has given the following additional benefits (again, in my opinion/observation):

  1. More frequent morning wood.
  2. Leaned me out. My body fat is definitely in the single digits these days. Striations on my shoulders. Visible six-pack. Insanely vascular now due to low body fat, and some genetics. Strong jawline. People in the gym really comment on how lean I've gotten, and especially when I'm pumped from a workout. As a 47/M, even lifting hard 6 days a week, I don't think there's any way I could be as lean as I am without HGH.
  3. General feeling of well-being. Not sure how else to describe it. I just feel really great.

So, other than some ball shrinkage, I don't think I've had any negative effects from TRT or HGH, other than to my pocketbook. This is also medically supervised and above board through a local men's clinic. I get blood tests done every three months, and keep my test levels around 1000.

Again I've put in a ton of work in the gym and with my diet, before even starting this. But adding TRT and HGH just massively improved the results I get from my work.

I honestly plan to stay on this for life, as I believe it improves the quality of my life in more ways than just the physical benefits I've listed above.

Hope this is useful. I obviously recommend it for people my age that may be experiencing low T. I have no opinion on whether its good for younger folks, especially if they plan to have kids in their future. Just sharing my experience here.

So far I've lost 75 lbs. My waist has gone from 46 to 34. I was literally a dadbod loser before starting this journey, and now my teenaged sons tell me I'm "jacked", which is high praise to me. Happy to post some before/after pics if there's interest.

Back to lurking now. LOL. Cheers.

[–]purplecabbage 2 points3 points  (7 children)

what was your t before you started TRT? I'm 44 and have ~375 t. Doc says I'm normal too. I feel tired, ed problems, lower libido, etc. But I'm fit and strong. Doc says might be due to stress w/ divorce (current), aging, work, etc.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Did you get your other hormones tested as well as total T? If you send me your blood work I can give you my semi-educated opinion

[–]purplecabbage 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thanks for the offer. I didn't ask for other ones, like what? Estrogen? Cortisol? Seritonin?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

First time I asked my GP to have my testosterone tested, they only tested total T. It came back at 320 and my doc told me I was "fine". I was 22 for reference, IMO 320 is not "fine" for being 22.

I read up on it a bunch and got blood work again through a men's clinic. You really need the whole hormone panel to see the whole picture of what's going on, total T alone is not enough. What you need tested is:

Total T Free T (what's actually active in your body, ~2% of total usually) Estradiol (sometimes E2, this is free estrogen) Metabolic panel (for blood cell count and other things) Prolactin TSH SHBG Albumin

Optionally a full thyroid panel (I had mine done because my first results showed high Thyroid Stimulating Hormone TSH which is indicative of a low thyroid, which indirectly causes low T production) This panel includes T3 and T4, thyroid hormones.

Sorry if formatting is off I'm on mobile.

Edit: call in and get a copy of your lab results if you don't have them, it's not worth taking your general practitioners word for it and suffering for months/years longer like I did.

[–]scandicock 1 point2 points  (14 children)

Yes, testosterone will make you more attractive and release pheromones. I recommend you google: "trt attraction" or "test cycle pheromones" and read about like thousands of reports from guys all over the world experiencing it.

Women are programmed to be attracted to guys with high test, its unconsious, they will rationalise it as "him being cute" or whatever. I believe naturals are just guys with naturally high testosterone levels.

I went from having absolutely zero girls interested, to having new girls approaching me every night when im out at the club, by doing testosterone.

May I ask how much testosterone you inject per week?

[–]scandicock 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also post before afters please!

[–]NotMeAtAll2091 1 points1 points [recovered]

Haha I knew it! Definitely believe that. I can just feel it. Plus my transformation has happened fairly quickly, so I am acutely aware of how differently I am treated by women these days.

I take 200mg/week. On the high side for TRT, but arrived at this dosage after some experimentation and happy with it.

[–]scandicock 1 point2 points  (6 children)

I suggest you try a testosterone cycle of 1g a week some time, then head out to he bar. Be prepared to get flocked by females like flies to shit, Im warning ya :P

[–]NotMeAtAll2091 1 points1 points [recovered]

I love the way women look at me right now lol. Not sure I'm ready for that next level shit. My mind does wonder what might be possible sometimes, but I'm so happy with my current and continued improvement, I'm just gonna stick with my current plan.

I'm assuming 1g was sarcastic, but I've at least wondered what a blast would be like, or Tren or whatever lol.

[–]scandicock 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Not sarcastic at all, 1g and u will blow teh fuck up and some girls will come up to you and wanna bring you home ASAP, if alcohol is mixed into it.

On TREN, you will be an absolute sex machine and extremely attractive to women, Its some biological shit with pheromones or sexual energy or something like that.

Oh, Im interested in before after pictures btw, so feel free to share

[–]NotMeAtAll2091 1 points1 points [recovered]

After my personal experience on TRT doses, I believe all the things you say lol. If a little helps this much, then wouldn't a lot help that much more? Haha.

WARNING: face-blurring is apparently disturbing when viewed on PC. Proceed at your own risk. Pics: https://imgur.com/a/GlsvS

[–]scandicock 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Yea thats quite an insane difference, from fake-smiling office worker to robust lumber jack ready to jackhammer young sluts better than their same-age boys :)

[–]NotMeAtAll2091 1 points1 points [recovered]

Too funny. Thanks man. How old are you btw?

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

T level tests are pretty sketchy. If you have symptoms of low testosterone then you should get it checked and treated but just the blood test is not all that good.

Rationale: One single T Test could be easily thrown off by a bunch of things- something like an energy drink can bring down your Testosterone levels by 50ish% for a short time. If I were to modify OP's point, I would get multiple blood tests done across a few weeks, take the average and go from there.

Source: https://www.t-nation.com/supplements/tip-testosterone-blood-tests-are-garbage (if you're curious, the writer of this article has a degree in molecular biology)

[–]MillionaireSexbomb 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Some people crash theirs by not sleeping, drinking a shit ton of alcohol and doing other stuff to fool the doctors.

[–]overrule 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Agreed. The main reason is that testosterone levels vary so much and the test is only a snapshot. Don't go on a fishing expedition for lab values. They're calibrated so that 95% of healthy people will have a "normal value."

That means there's a 1 in 20 chance that abnormal readings are chance and do not reflect an underlying disease. With the amount of lab values that can be ordered, chances are everyone will have at least one abnormal value.

Again, get checked out if you have symptoms, but there's very little benefit and potential harm in getting a full workup when you don't have any specific issues.

[–]Westernhagen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If I were to modify OP's point, I would get multiple blood tests done across a few weeks, take the average and go from there.

Yes. I had three tests done.

Wouldn't take the average though. If two are below normal, and one is normal, so the average is "low normal" that might lead you to avoid TRT which would not help you.

[–]dalicatatonia 12 points13 points  (15 children)

Problem is the huge range is a fucking joke and it doesn't mean shit. I was tested and around 300 too. Doctor said I was in range and he wouldn't do shit. Oh cool. I'm half the median but that's normal somehow. You feel like shit? That's normal. Fuck off

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (14 children)

I fucking despise doctors. Baby boomer generation sucks their balls it's disgusting. They think doctors are gods and refuse to do any research themselves. Fuck off is right.

[–]acetylcysteine 1 point2 points  (0 children)

a number of male boomer docs take test themselves.

[–]WetWeatherMaster 15 points16 points  (15 children)

Are the doctors open to such suggestions? By modern standards you're within the normal range.

[–]anuddahshoah 17 points18 points  (1 child)

"modern standards" now include healthy test from 16 year olds to 90 year olds all being considered healthy for an 18 year old male

you should have test for your age range, Buzzfeed tier soyboys have 90yo test levels but are considered "healthy"

[–]Sonifys 1 points1 points [recovered]

It’s not easy by any means. However, if your primary doctor isn’t very receptive to the idea you can see an endocrinologist. They’re just really hard to find.

[–]Endorsed Contributorsqerl 15 points16 points  (6 children)

Endocrinologist's also are wary of prescribing TRT for quality of life improvements citing the same risks as your physician. Finding a doctor or endo that will prescribe it are rare indeed YMMV. They commonly state that you're within a "normal" range (~250-1200) and repeat the concerns even if you're willing to accept the risks. Frustrating to say the least. Living near a large city should provide more options and favorable outcome unless you're fortunate to have an agreeable doc/endo.

[–]Sonifys 1 points1 points [recovered]

I am very lucky to have the doctor that I have now. Especially since I live in rural area. I did end up having to see him 3 times before he put me on TRT. It's not easy by any means.

[–]Chefkeaton 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I am so jealous. My last test recorded 290, and my doctor still refused an endrocrinologist. Then I went and submitted a request, and the request got denied. DO NOT USE KAISER.

[–]hot_rats_ 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Most TRT docs are independent practices that don't accept insurance precisely because establishment medicine is still very much anti-TRT. As with most things in life if you have the money it is not difficult to get (there are companies that will prescribe over the internet that basically don't turn anyone down), but if you don't you're most likely SOL till you do.

[–]1htbf 3 points4 points  (2 children)

I'm in Canada and wouldn't know who to go.

[–]acetylcysteine 0 points1 point  (1 child)

family doctor. mention you want blood work for test due to xxx symptoms. you want the 3 types. get a referral for life labs. do your bloodwork fasted in the am. sign up for email. get the bloodwork results emailed to yourself and your doctor. followup with doctor.

[–]Westernhagen 4 points5 points  (0 children)

By modern standards you're within the normal range.

The "normal range" includes obese schlubs and old men. 320 is "normal" if you're over 60. A guy who is 22 should not have to live with that. Indeed, a guy who is 60 should not have to live with that.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Take a look at this article,http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/01/16/normal-testosterone-levels/

Sources a few studies done on testosterone and age ranges.

[–]bonusfruit 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I wonder why such a drastic range is considered normal. How can a guy who's level is 270 and a guys whose level is 1000 both be at healthy t levels. That looks like a huge difference

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The other response was right, but I wanted to add that most doctors take the "normal" range and make it synonymous with an "optimal" range. Really anything in the lower third of that range is suboptimal and affecting your life/masculinity most likely. (My subjective opinion).

[–]lankybob 4 points5 points  (1 child)

This is a great post. I am glad someone is talking about low T. You have no idea how this simple test has changed my life forever. Maybe not just this test, more like the karotype test. But this test opened my eyes on how low T can affect a man. And how taking testosterone has made my like 500% better. And getting a free and total testosterone tests should be free when doing your yearly physicals. It is part of your well being. But I just want to applaud 👏 your post. I could write a book on how checking my testosterone levels changed my life and the steps that changed my entire outlook on life.

[–]binarynightmare 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Can anyone point to a reliable at home testing kit?

[–]grewapair 3 points4 points  (1 child)

No such thing. Has to be tested in a lab. There are many web sites that will provide a prescription for such a test and then you go get your blood drawn from a reputable lab.

I would NEVER do a blood draw at a doctor who specializes in TRT. You're almost guaranteed to get a low T score from them.

However, you can google symptoms of low T and see if you have some. If not, don't waste your $$.

[–]anothdae 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would NEVER do a blood draw at a doctor who specializes in TRT. You're almost guaranteed to get a low T score from them

This is like saying that you should never go to an oncologist because all the patients have cancer.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I almost totally agree with your premise, but I would pose that it's a test to take more for men who are having trouble with ED, sex drive, gym progress, and other symptoms of low T.

[–]Systral 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Exactly , there is no need to test if you have high libido for instance.

[–]Westernhagen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is like any other health stat that you should periodically check. Just like you want to know what your blood sugar, blood iron, and cholesterol levels are, at least once a year, you should also check your T levels once a year. You should check your cholesterol even if you're not having any symptoms of high cholesterol; you should check your T even if you're not having any symptoms of low T.

Furthermore, don't just rely on the doc to tell you what it means (he'll say, "yeah it's fine" no matter what the number is), you have to see the number yourself and know what it means.

[–]postreformedpua 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Funny you should post this now. I've just got my T levels checked and they are at 346, I'm in my mid-thirties. I'm now trying to decide if I should go through the process of convincing my doctor to put me on TRT, or just buying some because they are legal here.

[–]Sh0stakovich 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where are you? I didn't think it was legal anywhere.

[–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Being supervised by a doctor who knows his shit is definetly better. If at that level you have to convince him to get further tests done and eventually put you on TRT, he does not know his shit.

Go find an appropriate doctor, or educate yourself properly. You'll have to get some more bloodwork done and there can also be sideeffects, that you will have to look out for.

Go to r.testosterone and read the wiki for a start.

[–]gaki123 3 points4 points  (2 children)

What matters is FREE testosterone not TOTAL. Stop sprouting bullshit please

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Both are important pieces to the puzzle, but I do agree that free T is overlooked when it is what your body is actually utilizing.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

[–]NoBsMan 8 points9 points  (8 children)

Related to T-levels. Last weekend I was catching up with a friend of mine, who is lesbian, and we started talking about intermittent fasting. She asked me why I was doing and I said that increases my testosterone levels and other benefits. She then responded that men don’t need testosterone anymore because we don’t have fights like cavemen. I was shocked! Then I had to explain that a lot of men are depressed because of low levels of T and she had no idea about it. Since I started with redpill, I’ve always read about how society is trying to kill masculinity in favour of feminism, so what she said reminded me of that.

[–]Westernhagen 24 points25 points  (1 child)

Talking about masculinity and male problems with a lesbian? Sheesh. You might as well talk about space travel with a deepwater crab.

[–]fubarcapitalist 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I’ve had several women tell me the world is better off if men have low T levels.


[–]acetylcysteine 5 points6 points  (1 child)

same experience with most female doctors. it's almost as if they like the control over a low t male.

[–]HugeMongo 9 points10 points  (0 children)

It's not only depression, it's actually very unhealthty for men to have low test.

[–]fastnail 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A rabid lesbian feminist and a friend Mmmmmmmm!

[–]Livestr0nger__ 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Should also be noted that the website privateMdlabs and any other private lab work is illegal in 5 states. I live in NJ one of the restricted states and what I did was use a friends address from Florida and drove to a near by state that allowed testing(CT).

[–]scandicock 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Also, you wont become sterile. There are studies on thousands of men who was on testosterone for several years, every one of them got their sperm back after discontinuation. It takes a while, 3-6 months usually, but it comes back, so no worries.

[–]1nrokchi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Testosterone has been shown to improve cardiovascular health, more normal sleep cycles, more lean mass, lower amounts of belly fat, and greater focus. If we are going to believe in biology, this part is crucial. It is as important in optimizing yourself as going to the gym (which, in turn, increases testosterone levels!).

[–]JimiJons 2 points3 points  (1 child)

IllimitableMen has a good guide to TRT on his blog.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From the bright minds over at Pew Research comes this chart based on European countries and their different degrees of willing to accept Muslims and Jews as family members. The Hajnal Line divide remains fairly clear, but even more, this list reflects historical experience.

The countries which are more open to diversity are those which have experienced less of it in recent years. The Baltics struggle with Russian diversity and Eastern Europe has had its share of ethnic and religious wars, not to mention that countries occupied by Communists experienced Russian and other diversity. Now that they are out of that ideological ghetto, they have no desire to return.

On the other hand, wealthy countries where openness creates business success because it encourages social popularity have a higher stated approval for diversity. For them, diversity is still new and more exotic, but even more, they welcome the idea of more people to participate in the economy. Diversity still means success there.

As the West begins to realize what neo-Communist has done to it, expect this to change, but only when the economic benefits for supporting diversity die, much as they did in the East, with the failure of the system that is subsidizing them. The Communists did not have our thriving markets for tax-and-spend exploitation, but they ran out of money, and so will we.

[–]punkrockfishboy 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I thought 600 was normal 20ish year old, even for a guy who just sits around and plays video games. I was way off. I need to get on that privatemdlabs site and check my levels. I work out, and eat healthier, but still get angry and horny. Maybe it's healthy.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 1 points1 points [recovered]

If you had low levels you wouldn't get angry and horny, you'd get depressed. 600 is fine for a guy who just sits around and plays video games.

[–]Cenki 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I found a tumor in my head by having low TST level of 210 ngdl. After shrinking the tumor with medication I temporarily had a hypertestosterone of 1550ngdl for a few months, and then it went down to 650ish over time. Sometimes it can help you find more major issues.

[–]thassidus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What was your experience of hypertestosterone?

[–]Cenki 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't feel much different then normal. Maybe slightly more energetic and libido but it is way less noticeable then having it lower and going back to normal, where you feel like you've gone from being a weak worthless immobile lazy person to a superhero who can't get enough excercise in :p I trained for 2 years to do obstacle racing and lifting before learning of the disease and tumor and my third year of training was hilariously more of a jump.

[–]iLLprincipLeS 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Given the deceptive, manipulative, gold-digging, attention-whoring nature of women, yes. But why would women lie about rape, you ask? Well,

  • Women lie about rape if they regret having sex when it was consensual.

  • Women lie about rape to cover up their infidelity.

  • Women lie about rape if a man won't commit to a relationship after sex.

  • Women lie about rape to prevent being perceived as sluts when their sexual behavior is brought to light.

  • Women lie about rape to blackmail men for money or position.

  • Women lie about rape to get rid of men at their school or workplace.

  • Women lie about rape for leverage in family court.

  • Women lie about rape to publicly ruin the reputations of men.

  • Women lie about rape to indirectly brag about how desirable they are, the same reason they post Creepy PMs.

  • Women lie about rape if they regret having sex when it was consensual.

  • Women lie about rape for attention.

  • Women lie about rape for revenge.

  • Women lie about rape if caught in a sexual act that would cause shame or damage their reputation.

  • Women lie about rape because doubting their claim is socially reprehensible and anti-feminist.

  • Women lie about rape because they don't want to be held accountable for their actions.

  • Women lie about rape for public validation and praise for being a "rape survivor".

  • Women lie about rape because they'd likely get a slap on the wrist if they confessed or were caught lying about it.

  • Women lie about rape if they regret having sex when it was consensual.

  • Women lie about rape because the justice system tends to rule in their favor because they're women and by proxy, "victims".

If you consider the benefits of just a handful of these, you'd understand why false-rape accusations are so prevalent.

[–]berryfarmer 13 points14 points  (15 children)

Throwing in a mention of the iodine protocol (r iodide) and boron (r AltBoron) supplementation for radical Testosterone enhancement.

Testosterone ain't gonna do shit for you if it's all bound up by globulins (SHBG), getting converted to estrogen, or not being produced in the first place. Keep your micronutrients supplied or suffer the consequences.

Also, here's one to really get your cognitive dissonance going -- vegans have higher testosterone https://nutritionfacts.org/2013/02/12/less-cancer-in-vegan-men-despite-more-testosterone/

Vegan half-vegan, doesn't make a shit, you're eating estrogen when you eat meat https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/09/13/estrogen-animal-products/ plants don't make estrogen, and xenoestrogens (in soy) for example are counteracted by phytonutrients in the plant

I'm sure this info boogers up your day and "feelings", and you'll argue it till the cows come home because of your emotional attachment to your pepperoni hot pockets, but throw all that aside and view the situation logically to get gains

But really. That (r AltBoron) though https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4712861/

[–]2comment 1 points1 points [recovered]

This is very simple. The vast majority of testerone in the human male should be from his testicles, not from his diet. The testicles, like any other human part, is highly dependent on the nutrients and oxygen in the blood being delivered for maximum function. In a general fashion, your vascular system is your health.

Depriving any part of this tree blood flow can have multiple effects. It's not just "heart health" or to protect against strokes... there is thoughts going on that so many people have lower back pain because the inbetween discs are not getting nourished on the modern diet - there are no direct blood vessels to them so they depend on osmosis of nearby vessels for nutrient and those vessel are among the smallest (read: easiest to clog) in the body. It's even theorized that tinnitus (ringing in the ears) can occur when the blood vessels are getting blocked, indeed old-age deafness might not just be aging but bad diet. Other populations with better diet have been observed with much better hearing late into life. Truly from the tips of the toes to the top of the hairs.

What is indisputable is that humans directly have 160 million years of herbivorous ancestry behind them in evolution. Great apes are all herbivorous or nearly so with some single digit insect intake. The biggest strongest creatures on the earth were always herbivorous: gorillas, elephants, rhinos, and it held up in the past: Brontosaurus.

Unlike pure obligate carnivores who cannot be induced from atherosclerosis just via cholesterol (eating unlimited eggs) or saturated fat (fatty meat), humans are very different. Most of the science (around 90%) that contradicts this view is funded by Egg and/or Dairy Industries. Most of the ways to design studies to confound have been well understood, some methods still used today to hide correlation have been understood since the 1970s.

People on the board are scared of phytoestrogens but the strongest actual estrogen source is the standard diet is in dairy, as it's from recently impregnated or actually pregnant (genetically modified) cows. The strongest source of phytoestrogens is not in soy but in beer. However, unless you are a hardcore beer alcoholic, you'd have to handle the hops directly and continuously for an effect. Besides all that, body fat excretes estrogen,which will have a big effect on a high% bodyfat person.

Since bodyweight is not typically reflected as a matter of counting calories irl, but the average calorie density of food a person ingests, people on plant-based diets tend to be lower bodyfat.

If people want to know why men have erectile dysfunction earlier and earlier, as well as low testosterone, I submit it's the standard western diet, where cheese consumption has gone from around 3lbs/year a century ago to over 35 lbs today, and skyrocketing chicken intake has doubled overall meat consumption since the 1950s. I'm sure non-cheese dairy increased as well and fish too.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

You chose a book for reading

[–]RedPillD 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So your comment has me researching boron supplementation. I noticed in some product reviews people are complaining that the boron pill contains B2. Do you know anything about why they want their boron pills to not have any B2?

[–]berryfarmer 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Riboflavin is a component of the iodine protocol, it's easier to control dosage in a separate pill. I'd never buy riboflavin integrated into Boron

Some people take 30+mg Boron per day, some much more. It excretes easily

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thoughts on soy having feminising effects at bodybuilding dosages?

[–]MGTOWManofMystery 1 point2 points  (6 children)

I'm an older man. Getting T shots every 3 weeks now. I feel much more energetic, have a much-increased sex drive, I'm more aggressive in a positive way, and my testicles seem bigger and fuller (at least to me). So I'm confused by people here related that testicles might shrink with T.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Every three weeks? Is it enanthate? I did a cycle and even the long lasting esters require twice a week shots to maintain stable levels

[–]MGTOWManofMystery 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'll check and get back to you.

[–]Raikkonen716 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Noob question: I read that T injections (that is what you call TRT, right?) may cause infertility.

If one wants to avoid it, he should try to have the maximum of natural T. Does increasing natural T leves has any side effect?

[–]scandicock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wont cause PERMANENT fertility, it comes back when you go off. If u wanna reassure urself, use HCG with it

[–]gokartgo 1 points1 points [recovered]

Can you link to which test you are suggesting on Private MD Labs?

[–]CC_ee 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Anyone know if you can get tested on NHS?

[–]Hannibal10 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Just to clarify was there any correlation between the fact you were 142(<%10BF) and having poor T-level results?


[–]Friendly_Friends 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is no stronger test of your frame and manhood than low-T induced ED. I had a spell of it for awhile and was near-suicidal from both being floppy, and from the mood swings/depression from low T. I was not in the US at the time, and it was hell trying to convince doctors that something wasn’t right and that tests should be done. At best they would prescribe ED pills, which would just make my body hot and face flush...sans boner. They often denied I had a problem because I was relatively young. It really was a nightmare.

Fortunately I found a doctor who put me on a Clomid and HCG protocol, and I supplemented it with all the herbs people mention (ashwaghandha, tribulus, B-vitamins, etc) and lots of lifting. I used to be hypersexual and have to take a moment to beat off during the day just to stop constant blue balls. Though I have not gotten back to that state, and may never (without TRT maybe), my test levels did shoot up in the course of a few weeks, and I was back to picking up and spinning plates. I have had no issues with Clomid, and no side effects. I will switch to TRT after I have a kid, or age 45, whichever comes first. As long as my Clomid/workout/supplement regimen continues to work, I am absolutely fine without consigning myself to a life of TRT.

Get your levels checked. I really wish I had done it earlier.

[–]FeederPatrol 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What’s a good way to get extra zinc? Through supplements or through diet?

[–]dogchrist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

do dead lifts, bench presses, squats, rows, and overhead presses to raise testosterone levels.

also eat lots of vegetables and do martial arts.

[–]Morphs_ 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Do T levels change a lot? Suppose I have my levels checked after fapping 3 times a day of after a week of NoFap. Would that make a difference?

Do you just go to your md for this? I've wondered about my levels for some time but not sure what a good reason would be to have it checked.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most general practitioners don't know anything/enough, go to an ends or men's clinic. Fapping lowers your T by increasing prolactin, which suppresses your other hormone production

[–]Shaman6624 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes it varies a lot. Suppose you would sleep 8 hours and then get your T levels checked. If you slept only 7 hours the next day and get your levels checked they can be 15% lower. Or they might be 30% higher if you ate a big grassfed steak, lifted heavy weights, just got the business deal of your live and made out with a 10/10 girl.

[–]scandicock 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Check it on private clinic. T levels may wary but NOT alot.

[–]Morphs_ 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think through my GP it's covered by basic insurance, a private clinic will probably cost a lot.

[–]mrHappyPotatoe 0 points1 point  (1 child)

If you have high sex drive should you bother going to check it?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I don't think it's really necessary to get your T levels checked unless you are experiencing symptoms of low T. If you exercise, eat a decent diet, and sleep, your T is almost certainly fine.

[–]scandicock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

False, many many young guys have low testosterone today. Any male over the age of 25 should check them out.

[–]noobknob 1 points1 points [recovered]

does zma help? will i loose hair or become infertile?

[–]SirKnightRyan 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Oh no doubt it’s potent. I’m not doubting it’s effects, I’m 100000% for using drugs when they can benefit you. However I don’t think testosterone is something that should be commonly taken. Testosterone makes you a fucking Chad We don’t want a world filled with chads

I’d rather get my confidence and assertiveness from knowledge. Use consciousness expanding drugs, and be the smartest person in every room.

Nothing makes you more confident than that

[–]Shaman6624 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I don't have any symptoms of low test. Sleep fine. High sexdrive. Happy. Etc etc. But I took a test and only got 390 ng/dl . any idea how?

[–]scandicock 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are fine then, your shbg might be low making your free test decent or even pretty good. If u feel good, then no need to fix it.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Other things matter like the other person who responded said. Free T is what your body is utilizing, which is only ~2% of total usually. Also prolactin, estrogen, thyroid stimulating Hormone, follicle stimulating Hormone, blood count densities all have an effect on how your body responds to a certain volume of testosterone

[–]fastnail 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A good article on Testerone here -


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