TheRedArchive

~ archived since 2018 ~

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Lifting purely for aesthetics or for women is never a good idea IMO, as you should rather have some sort of warrior ethos seared into your mind as you grind yourself through the gym (don't pedestalize bitches, don't disrespect yourself by making a grueling workout dedicated to them), but it is undeniable that getting sex is one of the reasons many men lift. Lifting raises your SMV which in turn gives you more sexual options.

However, to maximize your appearance low body-fat is key. The lean 175lb guy at 10% body fat with that chiselled jawline and sunken cheeks is going to do better with women than that 210lb guy at 17-18% body fat with a puffy face. Don't be the permabulk 20% bodyfat bro. Everyone can bulk, but cutting is what separates the mentally strong from the mentally weak.

As you lower your body fat you improve your facial aesthetics by chiselling out your features. Your fat dissipates from your body in a global way, rather than through spot reduction, although some deposits deplete faster depending on your genetics. It's no secret that the vast majority of male actors, models and sex symbols are all low bodyfat. Even the ones that are above 200lbs (Statham) have chiselled faces and low bodyfat. And the common thread amongst all models, male to female, whether they're muscular and buff or simply normal framed, is their low bodyfat percentage.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=144053401

As you can see above, facial aesthetics improve a lot as you go down in bodyfat percentage. Many guys tend to put fat on their faces as they bulk, and this will lower your SMV steeply until you cut back down again. Women can often get away with chubby faces (they naturally have more estrogen, which results in chubby faces), but men cannot as an angular face is a signifier of testosterone. Further, adipocytes generate estrogen (antagonizes testosterone), and so when you are at a lower bodyfat percentage, you are also generating less estrogen/estradiol (no man boobs).

My next post will focus on the best ways to cut bodyfat, the simple science behind it (calorie balance), and my personal experiences.


[–]1sailorJery81 points82 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Dude Jason Statham is like 180lbs

[–]coco544021 points22 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

He's 50 years old and still looks great.

[–]Rudeyyyy3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So does Liam Neeson. Throw in Mark Wahlberg and Matt Damon too.

[–]1sailorJery0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say he didn't. I'm saying he's not some big ass dude. He just looks big compared to twinks

[–]Smilme5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Was going to say this, he's not even big. Additionally 200lbs isn't even big unless you are like 5'10 or under or shredded @ 200

[–]empty_moshpit 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Statham still looks better than 98-99% of guys in their 30's because of low body fat + nice facial aesthetics + stubble.

[–]Smilme1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah no doubt, there's a reason he's an actor (actually I think he was an Olympic level swimmer as well)

[–]cyberkrist217 points218 points  (61 children) | Copy Link

Normally just watch, but had to chime in here. Power lifter, personal trainer, and former bodybuilder here. You need to set a goal and do what you need to do to achieve it. That may be cutting fat for some or building size for others. There isn't one formula for esthetics. I carry more fat because strength is my goal. Women like confidence, and that comes from being happy with your body, not chasing what you "think" women want.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMetalgear22238 points39 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

To be fair, while women like confidence, they also like aesthetics. The speculation is what percentage of women prefer either factor more. I speculate that the lower SMV the woman the more they prefer aesthetics whereas the higher SMV woman prefer confidence.

[–]Pogodick8in692 points3 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Gotta bulk and cut. It’s cycles doesn’t mean become a lard ass

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

A lot of guys don't know how to cut, though. They think they can eat at 3k calories everyday, have a deficit of 100 calories, and then stop after a month. No wonder they stay perma 20-25%.

[–]Pogodick8in691 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

It’s ridiculous I think Kinobody has cutting down

[–]Smilme3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yeah because he never bulks

Tbh cutting and bulking 'cycles' are stupid.

If you eat too much in a surplus you'll just get fat too quickly (and the strength gains are not worth it - you'll get a temp. Boost from glycogen storage etc but you'll end up at the same strength level if you bulk quickly or slowly)

And they cut too much, you don't need to be in a thousand ducking calorie deficit to lose weight.

And why don't people do any conditioning anymore? No wonder everyone can't lose weight. Do some hill sprints 1-2x per week while you're bulking and you'll have a better body comp.

[–]empty_moshpit 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

They don't do it because it's slow and hard. Possibly even harder than putting on mass, because restraining from eating when your body tells you it wants surplus calories instead of a deficit, is arguably even harder than lifting weights.

I would rate the difficulty pyramid as follows. 3. Not doing anything (doesn't lift, doesn't lose body fat, just a couch potato) 2. Lifting weights with correct macros and calorie surplus (needs discipline) 3. Has lifted and cut down to sub-10% body fat (needs massive levels of discipline, most people will never have the willpower)

[–]Smilme0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I've always enjoyed training since I was 12, so it's never really felt like a chore. I guess I'll take your word for it, willpower isn't infinite after all

[–]empty_moshpit 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh, training can be enjoyable. But cutting is psychologically painful for the vast majority of the population. The reason you see so few people with chiseled faces and ripped bodies is because it's hard and painful to do. It's months upon months upon months of correct eating and avoiding junk carbs.

[–]Smilme0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think part of it is under education in nutrition, people have no idea what's healthy and think crash diets are the way to go.

You barely notice (if at all) being in a deficit of <200calories a day. The worst someone might get is a little cranky (which would probably be offset by positively achieving goals and getting better hormone production by being leaner)

Honestly if people cut out liquid calories and didn't eat fast food more than 2x per week they'd probably be eating in a deficit already - add in working out and they're already on track.

The hard part isn't eating in a slight deficit, it's knowing how and what to eat in order to be in a deficit (or even what a caloric deficit is).

This isn't very difficult for the average person, and the average person is not a chronic couch potato who drinks every day of their life.

It's not difficult to cut junk food, it doesn't give you withdrawals like caffeine does. There's a fair bit of research that points to there being no neurological addiction to food-despite it releasing dopamine, this is because it's the thought of eating tasty food that releases the chemical and not the food itself. It's a little more nuanced than that, but that's the gist of it.

[–]basebool0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It depends on your weight. For some people 3k is actually a cut.

Get your tdee checked. It gives an estimate of the cals you need on cuts, maintenance and bulks

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I speculate that the lower SMV the woman the more they prefer aesthetics whereas the higher SMV woman prefer confidence.

That's an interesting point. To add to that, I'm thinking that women with lower self-esteem (regardless of SMV) prefer men with higher confidence (regardless of SMV) to boost them up. I see this both my experience (I'm able to pick up someone absolutely beautiful - high SMV - but not 100% confident of herself) and others (I know a female friend - she's nice, and she's dating a guy that's so insecure he's a bit of a know-it-all, but possibly to her it screams self-assurance, which she doesn't have).

Now I'm looking to date only women with high genuine self-worth, self-esteem, and yes, SMV. The trifecta!

[–]p3n1x-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

they also like aesthetics.

Some do and they Do Not like aesthetics the way a man does.

[–][deleted] 54 points55 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Women like confidence, and that comes from being happy with your body, not chasing what you "think" women want

Drops mic

. . .

PS- I agree...Honestly, I'm heaviest I've been, and that's not muscle heavy, it's fat and muscle heavy, and I slay more quality pussy now than before with less effort. From 5'8" 165 of balance to 5'8" 182 lbs

[–]danisleet25 points26 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Can confirm the above as well. I've been 205lb with striated glutes and a sunken in Skeletor face and then I've also been 235 with fluff face and soft abs. Without a doubt girls seem to enjoy the softer look more. I think at once you get below about 8%bf (most) girls get turned off by the look or feel you are too far out of their league. I would say the sweet spot of general attraction is around 10-12%. Coincidentally, that bf range is also when I feel the best too, which points back to the confident and happy part.

I will also like to just add one thing for people who are chasing super low levels of body fat-- it will look great, but you will find your sex drive diminished; keep that in mind if you're dieting just to fuck girls.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I had to think what "boyfriend range" was for a second. Yes, now I know you meant bf = bodyfat.

Good point on having just enough fat to look...approachable? I didn't think of that; for me it's more inner game. When I was younger I thought "if I got the body and the looks, I can get girls" now it's the "okay, let's focus on inner game and not on the body and see what happens." I'm also shooting for the ~12 - 15% range now, combining both the inner game with losing a bit of fat/gain some muscle and blend the best of the two.

[–]p3n1x0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Without a doubt girls seem to enjoy the softer look more

I have to question your sample or range of experience.

Woman love my battle worn, scared, tight old face.

Leadership and confidence above ALL else.

It doesn't matter what my body looks like if I tell you to "sit down and be quiet" in front of your girl and you comply.

[–]MrBallsackEyes0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nobody would comply to anything your weak skinny self requested.

[–]p3n1x-2 points-1 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Let it go midget, im probably twice your size.

[–]Ninokun0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Im sure OP is quite fit and therefore Attractive but that its Confidence that does it is just a Lie low class males like to tell themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFnJMPQow7A good Video to not be delusional.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

What we're shooting for her is a balance of decent looks and confidence. If someone doesn't have confidence, it almost doesn't matter how far in the spectrum his looks are - he's not going to attract a decent girl. If someone has all the confidence in the world but ugly - then he'll have to try even harder to game.

From my experience looks is 35% important, and confidence is 65%. Money and status by far is the least important of it all - unless the man wants to attract status/money chasers. Following one's one purpose (and having a purpose at all) is the most important.

[–]-VaeVictis-9 points10 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

Plus if you are skinny fat and try to cut all that extra bf before getting some decent muscle size you're going to feel like a kid with a six pack. I'm finally getting to my ideal ratio after my second bulk this year.

[–]MrBallsackEyes5 points6 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

A skinny guy with a six pack is equal to a fat girl with big tits.

Nothing anybody gets too excited about.

[–]Ninjakiiiid8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I understand your point with this but it's funny because I've seen guys go nuts over a fat girls big tits and girls go nuts over some skinny drug dealers "abs".

[–]MrBallsackEyes1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule. When I was a skinny little weak pussy with a six pack, I got plenty of girls. But now that I am muscular, I easily get twice as many and twice the quality.

[–]Ninjakiiiid1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's good to hear being a skinny little weak pussy with a six pack currently trying to put on some muscle mass.

[–]MrBallsackEyes0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you’re anything like me, you can lift regularly and see almost no changes. What I finally had to do was basically eat twice the calories that anyone else has to eat to gain muscle. It actually works if you eat enough and you lift hard. The only thing that has ever worked for me is the GOMAD (Gall Of Milk A Day) diet, four big meals per day, at least two protein shakes per day, and 5 by 5’s - most importantly squats and deadlifts.

Doing that, I gained 25 pounds of muscle in the first year with no steroids and no supplements beyond protein.

Gains come a bit slowly now, but that’s to be expected because I have nearly reached my genetic potential.

[–]Ninjakiiiid1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks! That sounds very similar to what i had recently decided to try to do after reading a whole lot, with just a few adjustments. Ill definitely do all of it though I appreciate it.

[–]MrBallsackEyes0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No problem. Just make sure it is whole milk and not soy milk. In fact stay away from all soy which has phytoestrogens.

Eventually, GOMAD may start to make you a bit chubby in addition to the muscle. If that happens, drop it down to 2% milk and throw in some cardio to your routine for a while and things will balance out.

[–]p3n1x-1 points0 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Careful, this sounds like what you want to believe, but it isn't the truth. What you think of him doesn't matter.

[–]MrBallsackEyes0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

What you think of him doesn't matter.

Think of who? Did you reply to the wrong comment?

[–]p3n1x-1 points0 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Nah, your skinny guy anology is not a good one.

[–]MrBallsackEyes0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

I didn’t invent the analogy. It is a widely known Internet meme that every woman I have talked to agrees with.

Sorry you got triggered Mr. Noodle Arms!

[–]p3n1x-1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you want extra salt with your whine?

[–]MrBallsackEyes0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Are you done crying yet? Just lift some weights you little faggot. It’s not hard. Sorry you can’t get laid.

[–]p3n1x0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Let go of the angry phase sweetheart, sorry you lost your unicorn to Skindiana Bones. Triggered must be the name of your fleshlight?

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've had times in my life where I looked my best. Cut right down, jacked and tanned but due to stress or other factors that influenced my behaviour, I didn't do well with women. Nowadays, I'm closer to 18%bf (grizzly bear season), but I'm in a good place mentally and I'm slaying tinder broads.

Obviously bf, muscle mass and aesthetics matter, but behaviour is still more important imo.

[–]gaki1231 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Power lifter

Why I am not surprised lmao hahahaha

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (13 children) | Copy Link

How does carrying more fat contribute to strength? Serious question

[–]wracky2729 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

The caloric restriction required to achieve very low body fat levels is not conducive to strength. It's not that fat makes you strong, it's that being strong is very difficult without collecting fat along the way.

It can be done (see: top level low-weight class powerlifters), but takes years and years of strict training, coaching, diet, and (oftentimes) PEDs.

[–]artibonite1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

To build muscle you have to be in a caloric surplus, and that's how you store fat as well. Muscle and fat are, for the most part, built and lost together. You can store fat without building muscle, but the opposite is almost impossible. Also, added fat can contribute to an increase in some lifts, such as bench press, due to shorter range of motion and better leverage

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Makes sense. I've hit some pretty high bench and shoulder press number in the last few months, while also gotten a bit tubby around the middle. Like 15% bodyfat maybe? So if I wanted to cut down to 12%, can I do that while still building muslce? Seems like a small cut.

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can build muscle on a cut if you're a novice. Once you get into the intermediate and advanced stages it becomes much harder to build it while cutting.

[–]Brinko19900 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

If you're "tubby around the midsection" odds are you are way higher than 15 percent body fat. Most guys tend to underestimate their body fat levels.

15 percent is actually pretty lean. You will have a flat stomach, no love handles and a defined chin/jawline at legit 15 percent body fat.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I have a lean face and jawline, and when I flex my abs you can see the contours but not super defined. But I have a bit of love handles and a bit of a layer of fat over my abs I would like to reduce. So maybe like 16-17%.

[–]suicidal_warboy0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

17%, 20%, 29%... your percentage can be whatever you want it to be bro, but who’s counting anyways?

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's not about counting, it's about having a target to train to for optimal health. 10-12% I think is prime athlete %.

[–]adam_varg0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

not its not impossible, its actually quite simple, unless you are close to your 'genetic max', reason why people spout this broscience nonsense (if you wanna cry for sources - nippard made youtube vid with references exactly about this) is because they rationalize their lack of discipline or not wanting it enough

eat clean 24/7/365 (which means zero sugar except couple pieces of fruit) , dont touch booze and you will recomp

and its not just possible, but more effective than typical bulk/cut approach

[–]artibonite1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I agree completely, which is why i said "almost." There are many studies that show lean mass can be built while losing bodyfat (such as with intermittent fasting or other dietary interventions such as ketogenic diets). Unfortunately, many of these strategies are not widely accepted currently

[–]adam_varg 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

i would say they are accepted, well atleast by people who know their shit, but only theoretically

you dont even try to put my 'normie' 'clients' on this, they would never adhere to this strict regime for long enough, so i just put them on IF, which is notably less effective but has very high compliance rate if normies willpower trough first few weeks, which in the end gives better result..

[–]artibonite0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am guessing you are a trainer (I am as well). I have the same problem as you with adherence, working mostly with Gen Pop. IF seems to be much more intuitive for most of my clients, though the few clients that have switched to a Carbohydrate Restricted Diet are getting some pretty crazy results. We have a body composition scale at my Gym and it is not uncommon to see clients gain muscle while losing fat while restricting carbohydrates. I believe this is just an effect of lowering Insulin

[–]BraindeadIQ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a guy who trains for strength now, 240lbs and 5 feet 911⁄16 inches 1.77 m. at freaking 21% bodyfat.... I can slay pussy, I've had sex with fitness girl the day after her competition. It was because my confident, she liked that i had goals and i didn't act needy, I didn't chase her or even try at all.

But having nice body (aesthetics) works a lot better at clubs, I've VERY hard time there when my fit friend is with me (11%) bodyfat at 189lbs and i think 6 feet 53⁄64 inch . But give me few minutes of talking and i can steal them from him. Because he can´t talk to women for shit.

So, Clubs --> aesthetics works better. But in normal talking --> Confidence.

[–]ghostofstevemcqueen0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think there is validity in this. I also think there's a balance that's needed. Obviously keeping ones body fat percentage in reason is good. However, getting all shredded and lean isn't going to mean much if you're wearing clothes all the time. Actors and models or body builders go to extremes, frequently with personal trainers, to achieve their ripped physiques in order to be ready for being under the microscope - cameras. Looking athletic, muscular with a v-taper, having a healthy body fat level, while still maintaining a life and the bandwidth to pursue my mission - that's where I'm at.

[–]surfclimb 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Women like confidence

Lol, they like facial aesthetics, wealth, height and status. "Confidence" just means you have those things. The rest is a comforting blue pill lie ugly men tell themselves.

[–]gaki1230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This. What a fat "powerlifter" cope bs

[–]10211799107-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Same here, strength is my goal. For a tall guy I'm fucking up those weights. 500lbs Deadlift at the end of 2017 is happening. Testing singles and 465lbs felt pretty easy. I can't wait.

Doing shit for "girls" goes against any TRP advice. I'm slaying while being more chubby. Cut fat in 2018 then off we go again for the next round of PRs

[–]wracky2720 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I joined the quarter ton club this year. Go get it!

[–]bigboabydeuchars18 points19 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Lean is definately the desired end goal in terms of maximising aesthetics (jawline, abs) but you have to get to a certain level of muscle mass first. There is no point in trying to get shredded if you don't have a solid base.

Unless you live in a hot climate where you can walk about topless all day, noone will even know you work out unless you have decent traps, lats and arms.

I see a lot of young guys in the gym that have very low bf and not much else and they tend to wear skintight white vests to emphasise their abs. These are generally the guys who would benefit immensely from spending six months over the winter training heavy and doing some serious eating.

[–]Endorsed ContributorReddJive0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree. I am strictly a powerlifter and there is a difference in the IOIs when I am pulling 400 or more on a deadlift or squat then the skinny ripped guy who's still curling the same 80 pound barbell.

When my workout begins I am usually alone but nearing the end when I am rounding out at 480 on my squat there are women suddenly in the power racks beside me.

Strength is a matter of action. Women see it. They flock to it. But don't underestimate being lean. It's a balance, and its in your frame.

[–]arthurabyssal0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lol I'm the skinny guy with the white vest

[–]EdmondDaunts33 points34 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Strangely when you have been lifting for a while you get a bit of tunnel vision. You don’t see the progress in as dramatic a fashion. Other people do though.

You don’t see broadening shoulders, thickening legs and neck. But others meeting you for the first time or after a while do. That said, having a chiselled face may be an advantage but unless the whole body aesthetic is there it looks odd. Some people have good facial genetics.

However have the frame and the face. Definitely an advantage. It’s a fitness indicator.

[–]Kingofdeadbedroom16 points17 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I notice the broadening shoulders when bouncing off door frames that I would have passed through previously.

[–]Fapisluv4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

How wide are your shoulders?

[–]Kingofdeadbedroom-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Not enormous. I'm 6', 180lbs and just below 15% bf. I'm travelling at the movement, so cannot measure them. I have probably added at least two inches across my shoulders in the last 6 months and my arms and chest have expanded so that I cannot tuck the arms in to avoid objects like I used to.

It's like someone proportionatly expanding the width of your car, then being surprised when you hit something.

I also cannot walk face-on down the aisle of my train without raising my arms above the seats.

[–]p3n1x0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

2 inches in only 6 months? How the fuck? Maybe bone movement, but not 2 inches of muscle.

[–]Kingofdeadbedroom0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I've actually been training my upper body for a year, mostly with bodyweight for the first six months, before hitting the gym since June. I have excellent cardio condition, after years of intense training, which gives me very high endurance even during strength training. I have been training my arms shoulders and back 4+ days per week and recovering muscle mass that I lost over the years.

I do not have measurements, but 2 inches from shoulder to shoulder is a guess based upon changes in the fit of my clothing and where I hit myself when clipping the edge of doorframes. Believe what you will, even people that see me regularly are struck by the difference and I don't mention anything about training., My body fat percentage was low to begin with and has barely changed.

[–]daringdeviljackass0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Same here. I gotta walk sideways all the time :-(

[–]basebool0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I see your point. When ive moved up in weights, everyone said wow you look bigger. When i looked in the mirror i didnt ses a difference.

Oh well

[–]ayefranco32 points33 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Intermittent fasting. Lifting. Eating fucking well (healthily).

[–]Smilme0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Intermittent fasting doesn't make you leaner. But it will curb your appetite.

There's so much bullshit info on IF, the statistics all these fuckers based IF on is longer term fasting (I.e up to like 30+ hours)

[–]washington_breadstix 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Intermittent fasting might be a good idea if you're older and your metabolism has slowed down, but I wouldn't recommend it for bean poles in their 20s who are trying to put on muscle.

[–]ayefranco0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Still put on a lot of muscle when you get your proteins in, vegetables etc, IF doesn't lower how much muscle you put on

[–]tesarpaul 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, but if you are a newbie in lifting youd should first focus on gaining mass. Becouse it doesnt matter if you have low BF but you still look like DYEL skeleton. So I would say put some muscle mass first and then you can start cutting.

[–]trenbologna_and_whey 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Don't underestimate the power of recomposition over bulking and cutting. I followed this chart and have had a lot of success achieving my strength and physique goals.

My progress pics when first starting out (disclaimer: first 2 pics are natural, the rest were on a basic cycle of testosterone): https://imgur.com/a/BHvek

[–]Widowmaker_Only44 points45 points  (36 children) | Copy Link

No u shouldn't. Start out by cutting to 10% then clean bulk to gain mass. Never be one of those permabulking fat fucks with 20+% bf.

[–]FatPowerlifter42 points43 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Retard advice. Why would you want the average 14-15% skinnyfat guy to cut himself down that lean? He'll make next no strength or muscle gains while lifting and waste away into nothing. Just eat and lift properly.

[–]Snazzy_Serval11 points12 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

The average skinnyfat guy is above 15%. Probably around 20%.

[–]FatPowerlifter8 points9 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

That's just fat, not skinnyfat

[–]2mental_models10 points11 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

20% is a pretty good number for 'skinnyfat'.

15% you can see abs and stuff. 10% = cut, olympic swimmer.

<10% = extreme bodybuilding 'shredded'

If you are 20% and have no muscle, that's about what the typical 'skinnyfat' guy is.

25% = let yourself go, little bit of a beer belly, can still see some semblance of muscle provided you are strong.

30% = fucking sloppy pig

40% = morbidly obese hop on a walmart scooter

[–]Fapisluv2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

To be more exact on what you are saying, bodybuilder shredded is less than 8% off season, and 3% on stage. 10% to 12% is the bf you see your abs, and 10% to 18% is the bodyfat for most athletes. 20% to 25% is the average guy( the average is overweight). At 25% to 30%, the waist is always above 92cm and sometimes even 100cm. Above that you have let yourself go a long time.

[–]Random_throwaway_0000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Skinnyfat, is very low muscle tone, while still having a high Body fat %, thus being skinny (since no muscle) yet still fat.

[–]2mental_models2 points3 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If you sub 20% skinnyfat guy who has never lifted, it makes sense.

Eating and lifting properly is going to bring his % down, simply by ratio of muscle% increasing and his newfound energy expenditure. No need to start from Gandhi.

[–]Snazzy_Serval1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Possibly.

Most skinny fat guys have fat in their faces and have a gut but thin arms and weak chest. With a shirt on most people would never think that the guy had that much body fat.

Source (me former skinny fat guy)

[–]FeelsSmallMan0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

How much did you have to drop in order to lose the fat on your face? I'm in similar situation, 14% bf and 3x of this fat mass in on my upper body compared to x on my lower body and I just started working out.

[–]Snazzy_Serval1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Unfortunately there is still fat on my face. I'm 5'5 and 135ish. Some of my lady friends were going through my Facebook with me from pictures a couple of years ago when I was 160 and they said comments like "look at that chubby face." I've lost 5% body fat since then. Still got a whiles to go. My scale says I'm at 20% though I don't know how accurate that is.

[–]FeelsSmallMan0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah I’m 5’8 and around 130-135 and my legs are around 8% and my arms are around 10% so as you can see it’s mostly on my torso and face.

[–]ThePreviousGod0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Cutting first would be smart since newbie gains would in most cases contribute to muscle growth even though you’re cutting.

[–]Bear_x 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Dude, your username. Nobody's gonna hear anything you say about this

[–]FatPowerlifter5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you're gonna ignore logic because of a meme username you weren't gonna make it anyway

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

If that permabulking fat fuck is strong as fuck, he will definitely not care. Confidence through the roof. Define clean bulk? I would always recommend finding the maintenance for the calorie intake and then apply progressive overload. You will gain fat. Inevitable when bulking. Control the damage.

[–]asotranq1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Eddie Hall has stated that people saying he looks fat really gets to him, so I don't believe you in the slightest. He's got one of the biggest egos in the weightlifting world too...

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay, I do take that back, as they are borderline examples of high stress (both mental and physical) lifestyle and they may not be the best example. I said that from experience, as many of my powerlifting friends are very confident because of their strength. If you make peace with the fact that you need calories to lift heavy, which makes your body to store energy in the shape of fat and one can't be achieved without the other - it's not going to bother you.

I personally bulked for two years to 97kg/213 pounds (I am 183cm tall/6.0ft) and then got to absolutely shredded for photoshoot and comp - I will not do the dirty bulk again because it's simply not efficient.

[–]kenpachitz 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Clean bulking is using healthy food.

Lean bulking is putting on about 1lb/0.5kg per week.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Depends on metabolism, 0.5kg per week is quite a lot and that's a surplus of around 3.500 kcals. Not going to reinvent the wheel here, but I'd stick to maximum 350kcal surplus per day if you know your body well.

[–]Brinko19900 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Even if that's true (doubt it) the toll it will take on your body is not worth it. Plus you feel bloated and fat all the time.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But it has to be done for greater good of muscle mass to cut the fat later on. Bulk through winter, shred for summer and keep it sane.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

No u shouldn't

Yes you should. More muscle = more fat burned per movement.

[–]enterim0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

What is the best way to cut to 10% WHILE gaining muscle?

I am currently 2,05 m and 105kg but was planing to gain some additional weight to gain muscles. I already went from 92 kg to 105kg, I was a nerd before.

Do you have any links / ressources you would recommend

[–]daxorid4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

What is the best way to cut to 10% WHILE gaining muscle?

One of the following:

  1. Start completely untrained.
  2. Go through puberty.
  3. Testosterone Enanthate + Deca Durabolin + a solid AI protocol, followed by well-designed PCT.

Without newb gains and/or an exceptional hormonal profile, simultaneous cut/bulk is a fantasy.

[–]rocknrollchuck1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Michael Matthews' book "Bigger, Leaner, Stronger" gives very detailed bulking and cutting guidelines that I found helpful. No matter what, if you are lifting you will gain muscle - but if you are cutting at the same time, your gains will come very slowly. Better to cut first, then clean bulk after you reach your 10% goal.

[–]102117991070 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm 1,93m and 112kg. I decided 20 weeks ago I'm going to powerlift. You need a really good strong base first so I'd recommend you strength train first. Get your weight up slowly and do a program like Starting Strength. It fucking works. Once you're strong, you can cut fat and keep the strength somewhat only THEN do you switch to a hypertrophy program to use the heavy weights for volume to make the muscles grow.

At your height you need to fill out. Don't look like a tall ass stick figure with no back or quad muscles just to be 10% BF. you'll look retarded.

[–]enterim0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Yeah true. The weight I gained till today is mainly muscle mass, I have been training 4 times a week for the last months. But I am really unsure about what is the best way to continue. It is either gaining more mass or trying to get lean.

[–]102117991070 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Go on training program focused on strength like Starting Strength and get your lifts up over the 2018 year. Then worry about silly bullshit.

[–]PaulAJK0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Go to the lean gains reddit.

[–]BigArmLife0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You don't go perma fat fuck if you cut lol

[–]Rian_Stone0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

If you're lighter than 180, yes you should.

No one likes lean ribcages

[–]Whatisthisbug33330 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You’ll look like a ghost at 10 percent with no muscle. If you’re skinny you frankly look better at a higher body fat because you don’t look sickly.

[–]Rp9974 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Would you rather look like a skeleton first or a fat person? That's the ultimate dilemma most skinny fat beginners face ( that are around 17%). I would start off by cutting to get to 10% as you won't look as bad and would still get the noob muscle gains.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I doubt if a person that is at the beginning their journey will handle properly the cut anyway.

[–]Chikinhok4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Dont worry about weight at all until u got some muscle, then see where you’re at

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Then if you decide to cut, do you lose muscle too?

[–]Chikinhok0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

A little bit ya, 3 steps forward 1 step back

[–]v1ncere1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It really depends on Where you start, i started Very skinny therefore gaining weight was top 1 priority, and still is. Im still pretty shredded

[–]-VaeVictis-0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Pretty much. I was so focused on getting lean last year that i got the aesthetics of a teenager with a six pack. I'm finally getting to a good ratio after two bulks this year.

[–]sketchyuser0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I hated being fat (for me that was 205 at 6’2) and I cut down too aggressively without maintaining much muscle to 175. I was too skinny. I think it was still good because it helped put on a lot of lean mass without much fat. This is because cutting made me get good at counting macros and calories and made me fight hard not to gain too much fat. I put on 25 lbs and started cutting again, this time I’m much bigger and my cut won’t be very long.

If you’re above 15% I’d recommend cutting down to 10-12 and immediately start bulking (give yourself a week or two at maintenance, then lean bulk 300-500 cal surplus). Do it until your chest starts getting saggy or your abs are invisible in the best of lighting.

It depends on your body type of course, but I’d rather have low body fat and less muscle than high body fat. High muscle low body fat is of course the best option.

Super low body fat is not a good look on anyone. Keep it above 8%, and maybe 10% is ideal.

[–]Brinko19900 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd pick being DYEL skinny over being fat with muscle any day.

[–]aguywholifts 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Until you're not swimming in a medium t-shirt, you should be focused first on building up the muscle for a masculine physique and bulking for an indefinite period of time. Once that's achieved and you have a solid amount of muscle, then you can focus on shedding off the fat. Because while 175lbs at 10% is a nice pit stop, the goal will still be 210 at 10%.

[–]majorketone13 points14 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

210 10% is impossible for the average guy. Even at 6' the maximum muscular potential at 10% BF is 192 pounds. Source: Martin Berkhan Formula

Edit: Also if you don't have a six pack in any lighting without flexing, you aren't 10% BF

[–]2mental_models8 points9 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

bodyfat% references are one of those things that usually gets distorted online (kind of like looks-scale in field reports)

If we take ~6ft 175@10% literally, then NO SHIT, we're talking about a gym rat, possibly someone who uses looks for a living (athlete, model, actor).

If you are ~6ft 175@10%, you have no rational worry about bulking, or physique in general other than maintaining/improving weaknesses. You've pretty much maxed out the potential of the physical attraction of your body itself.

A lot of the readers here have higher % bodyfat, either because of too much fat, or lack of muscle.

[–]majorketone2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for being another voice of reason here. People will say they are 6% body fat when that is literally elite bodybuilding level of body fat and a lot of them are on steroids. My guess is a lot of people here have too much fat because heavy lifting is promoted a lot here and you can't lift the same weight at 10% BF that you can at 20%. You just can't.

Thats fine if thats their prerogative but don't try and bullshit and say you are 10% BF when you have like 2 abs showing in the right lighting.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

There's no magic weight goal that means more pussy. It all depends on your height and frame. I'm 5'7, 155 with 10% bf and I slay. I have a naturally small frame but I have a lot of muscle on it and look jacked. Like a lightweight boxer or UFC fighter, think Jose Aldo. Any more muscle mass and I'd look silly. I weighed 115 in high school and it took me years to build this much muscle. My numbers could be better but it's tough while maintaining 10%.

Squat 205 x10 Deadlift 225 x 10 Bench 195 x 10

[–]celtiberian6660 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm 5'7, 155 with 10% bf and I slay

I'm 5,'7 and I look way too skinny at 155. I look better with 170-180 lbs or more, even with a higher BF. At 115 I would be just dead, I already looked sick at 150 and low BF (people asked if I got HIV LOL), it would be only bones @115 LOL. But I have a wide/heavy endomorph build, so its the other way around.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

For sure. All about frame. There is no magic number. Lots of guys have tunnel vision in regards to what their bodies are and are really incapable of thought outside of their own realm. Super prevalent on TRP.

[–]All-DayErrDay2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

At what height are you naturally trying to be 210 at 10%.

[–]2mental_models2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the OP did the whole truth-but-obvious thing.

Is it better to be muscular and lean, than muscular and fat. Hell yea! But no shit, Sherlock.

If you are overweight, obviously low% bodyfat is the way to go. But if you're are a skinny (not-muscular) dude, swimming in a smedium t-shirt, with absolutely no physical presence, you need to bulk. No you aren't going to do some all-you-can-eat see-food diet, but you definitely aren't going to be 'cutting'.

Everyone can bulk

kind of takes that for granted and frames the convo in a narrow window.

[–]coco544010 points11 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

No!!! Bulking is always a bad idea. Keeping your body fat low actually facilitates long-term muscle growth.

BTW 175 and 10% are real good numbers for an average height guy.

[–]reddzeppelin7 points8 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I agree with the last statement. I'm about there except I have less fat more height. My best physique was 188 6 percent or so. But keeping your body fat low only facilitates long term muscle growth, when you're gaining weight.

I'll set you in on a secret that nobody will believe, but I'll mention anyways. You can cardio bulk. It has to be something like cross country running, rowing or swimming that uses a lot of muscle fibers, but since cardio has less of an after burn than lifting, you can gain more mass by reversing the deficit faster. What's more now you're building an endurance base so that when you cut, by lifting weights in the gym, you will recover better and have more energy for intense sets. This is healthier for your body than traditional bodybuilding, but nearly nobody does it because they want to see instant results. Not subtle slow twitch growth under a layer of fat while they're bulking,mand then they won't believe it's possible to train power while cutting. It is is if you have enough body fat and aerobic fitness to use it as fuel for more intense workouts. You don't intentionally cut weight it comes off because you're aerobically strong enough to burn more calories in a workout than naysayers would ever predict.

[–]Chriskiwi990 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Can you expand on this? I’m a runner myself, and am curious on how to bulk while also running. I’m eating about 4000 calories a day to go 500 calories above my TDEE and burn from running.

[–]reddzeppelin1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll tell you how I did it. All my runs were on hiking trails because the softer surfaces and rough terrain require more muscle activation. I think it was three 23 minute 5 km runs per week and one day of sprints. See if I did 7 runs per week I'd never grow leg muscle. You could run easy every day though as long as you don't exceed the mileage you can do easily. But the 3 short and hard runs per week are essential those build up your legs and core. This is very important before I ran I always ate an everything bagel with cream cheese and an iced coffee with cream and sugar. The simple carbs, protein, fat combined with the intensity of the workout that's why I wasn't losing weight. Most lifters spend longer than 23 minutes in the gym.

So you could wake up every morning eat a banana and go for a short easy run whatever that is to you but extra slow and not more than an hour. You need to save your energy for the cross country tempos that will build lower body muscle. Then eat normally all day just rest, honestly using the word tdee is why you can't bulk. Just don't listen to Reddit about calories in calories out theyre autistic or something and don't get that you can't grow and shrink at the same time. You can't outeat overtraining. In running over training is a medical condition. In body building its training more than your muscles can handle, not giving them time to recover befor working them more so they shrink. So since you're also running mileage don't sprint just the tempos and the daily easy runs. Instead of sprinting you might add burpees. But swim or do pull-ups and push-ups or something climb a tree wrestle somebody do something upper body as well two days per week. I think the swimming is ideal for bulking though because immersing yourself in water colder than your body does the opposite of running and getting your body hot it makes you hungry, take cold showers if you don't swim. Again Reddit haha swimmers are thin. Don't listen to them those are competitive swimmers training for hours it will help you bulk and since its cardio you'll still run well.

So just eat normal don't over do it, it takes energy to process food. The only time you need to worry about a surplus of protein is the meal after you work out, take a whey shake with it if you need more. after that just eat when you're hungry and rest you will be sythesising protein. Ok and then before bed eat at least three bowls of cereal with milk. This will count for more if you haven't been over eating all day you will get more insulin response. It will make you store fat but who cares you're a runner you'll use it as fuel. Eat a bowl of ice cream too if you want. You'll store the carbs in your growing muscle and use those instead of catabolizing them. If you're concerned about blood sugar do air squats and push-ups you'll be fine but nutrition is a lot more complex than adding up calories carbs taken at the right times will do a lot more to fuel your running and facilitate growth because they burn faster than fats and proteins.

If calories in calories out was true you'd gain as much muscle eating 1000 calories of sugar in the morning as you would 1000 calories of oatmeal. Case in point. Ones killing yourself and ones a hearty breakfast. But if you are going for a morning run oatmeal is an effective and cheap source of calories to come back to apple slices walnuts being good things to add. So in the morning to gain you want slow carbs which fuel your day and then before workouts you want some simple so you never go into a deficit. the casein protein you get from milk is the slowest protein you can get other than eggs I guess you could also eat those before bed if you want I'd rather have cereal. Anyways it's not all the same at all its all different banana eggs oats cereal bagels these things taken at the times I suggest can and will out perform the sum of their calories.

[–]NitricTV3 points4 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I’m 6’4 that’ll make me look like a twig

[–]coco54405 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm 6'4" too. My freshman year of college was the first time I had access to a full fledged weight room. I worked out like crazy. I started at 230 lbs in September. By April I was 185 lbs. For the first time in my life I had girls hitting on me. Nothing wrong with being thin if you still look athletic.

[–]NitricTV2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yo i used to play football in high school (I’m 18 & just graduated)

I went from 250 to 190 I swear the amount of attention & respect I get now is night and day.

[–]AlphaGinger662 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

6'4" is not average height whatsoever.

[–]mwait[🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

6'4" also... I had no shortage of interest when I was in the 175-185 range.

[–]Mr-Kabuki0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

unless your short, cause then you will look super wide.

[–]jigglyp33n 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

False dichotomy. The 210 lbs guy at 10% bf has the edge.

[–]Extremely_Photogenic17 points18 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

false dichotomy

Obviously the guy that's big and lean has the advantage, but so many guys go and put on 20 lbs of muscle and 40 lbs of fat and look like shit until they cut. If short-medium term appearance is your only goal it's better to stay at <13% body fat at all times.

Lots of scrawny guys think "I'm so skinny I'm going to bulk and get massive arms and these girls will like me". That's not it, he'd be better off getting a little bit of muscle but stay skinny

[–]coco54403 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes! If you're fortunate enough to already be thin don't screw with it.

[–]LeftHookTKD3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

210 lb at 10% and the guy is probably on roids depending on height

[–]jigglyp33n 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks stranger! My goal was to be accused of using roids. I'll stop going to the gym now.

[–]LeftHookTKD2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I did say depends on height. If you're not super tall then I doubt you're 10%. Most people get their body fat wrong.

[–]jigglyp33n 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh boy, u really know how to make a gent blush.

[–]majorketone5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Where does this sub get numbers like this? For the average guy those numbers are impossible. The law of diminishing returns will make it impossible for the average guy to put on that much mass at that BF%. Thats why the maximum muscular potential for even a 6' guy at 10% is 192 pounds

[–]jigglyp33n 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Woah, way to stroke my ego buddy!

Don't forget to squat chum!

[–]majorketone0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well if you are 210 and 10% you better be at least 6'3 because then I would believe you. Otherwise you're definitely not 10% BF. If you don't have a full six-pack showing in any lighting without flexing, you aren't 10% BF.

[–]Arabian_Wolf4 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Fellas with high bodyfat (over 20%):

HIIT in your offdays (non-lifting days, 2-3 times a week) is a must.

Source: my own prone to getting fat body.

[–]HelpMeFindNewGlasses1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

What are your fav HIIT?

I've tried jog sprint so far.

[–]Arabian_Wolf0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

In general I advice people to make their favorite Cardio exercise a HIIT.

Mine is Swimming.

[–]raywilliam6394 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Facial aesthetics > body aesthetics

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Truth

But why settle for one when you can have both?

[–]raywilliam6394 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You can't have facial aesthetics unless you were already born with a pretty face

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you were born with a pretty face, it will be an ugly face if your bodyfat percentage is too high.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

This to me is like a highschool vs grown-up realization. In highschool it was too much axe spray, chains, and getting as big as possible.

Over time you realize how to smell, dress, and look.

Luckily we are splitting hairs here because it takes about the same effort in the gym either way. Like I said it's just slowly learning the subtle differences over time.

[–]ohsoentitled4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually, studies have shown that for men the body fat that is perceived as health is between 8 and 21% body fat. For attraction, the best body fat percentage is actually around 16% with around 80% lean muscle mass at around 170lbs. Of course this is dependent on your height but the overall optimal physique for attraction is "lean muscular". But it certainly isn't low body fat i.e. <10%.

[–]Herdsengineers5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I think the "sweet spot" for each guy is a little different. Some look good at 10%. Some look too emaciated and need to be a little higher. Depends on the body type - ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph. Each has a different individual sweet spot that looks best.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ectomorph and so on is a myth, look it up

[–]h4nkz9 points10 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Everyone can bulk

Bullshit. Clean bulking is not easy. I find it way harder to get 3,5k kcal / day in with healthy food. It takes a lot of planning and you have to eat even if you are not hungry.

While cutting, just fast for 16hrs/day, keep your protein high and eat a lot of vegetables

[–]daringdeviljackass5 points6 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Clean bulking can also be fucking expensive, depending where you live and your stats. At my height and muscle mass, I'd need 3800-3900 kcal a day

[–]cBIGONE 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

It's cheap as fuck. Blend 2 cups of oats,slam with 4 tbsp on and you have over half your daily calories in 15 minutes. Don't make excuses

[–]daringdeviljackass3 points4 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Nah celiac disease, cant have oats and PB. Also where I'm at (south africa) that stuff is expensive (economy is fucked, inflation up). I get by eating organ meats and homegrown fruits and veggies

[–]Whatisthisbug333310 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Seriously - it’s easier not to eat than to eat.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, it is the "clean" part that is hard not the "bulk" part.

[–]daxorid2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bullshit on your bullshit. This is an extremely subjective topic. Those of us arriving at ideal physiques from the "former fat kid" camp usually have to accept a feeling of perpetual hunger as a part of life. I can comfortably put away 3500kcal of, say, chicken breast and steel cut oatmeal within about eight hours.

[–]mamaknulare2 points3 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

180 cm and 80 kgs here. No idea about fat % but I have veins from hands to shoulders and a six pack. Always get compliments for my body, the girl I was with two weeks ago told me I had the 'dream body'. What's funny is I only do calisthenics and bjj and I saw some bullshit thread here a while ago saying that calisthenics is ''beta''.

[–]redlurker94 points5 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

I personally disagree. Of course being low fat is an asset, and nobody wants to be a fat fuck. But I'm currently bulking, I'm at around 21%bf, my lifts have dramatically increased in the past months and I feel way better than when I was 15% after keto. I'm stronger, I feel manlier, people respect me more and are more submissive around me (literally getting out of my way when I walk). Yes, ultimately I want these chisel features. But not before I can bench 2 times my weight.

[–]pmmedenver-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

The higher your bodyfat percent gets, the more fat cells your body produces to hold the fat. When you slim down, the new fat cells do not go away, they simply release their fat stores. This makes it easier for you to become fatter in the future and makes your body "want" to have more fat. I heard that you should always end your bulks at 15%, although that number may be specific to the bodybuilding community so if you're a powerlifter your mileage may vary.

[–]cBIGONE0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This is True but only in obese cases. Fat cells individually can grow a lot by expansion, rather than division.

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Doesn't matter. If you're skinny fat you should bulk. If you cut to 10 % with 0 muscle you're going to look like a twig.

[–]whatsariho21 points22 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Fuck. You must be a 15 year old child.

How the fuck is Statham above 200lbs :D. He is about 5'8'' tall. He is like 175lbs MAX.

Also when you're a natural and don't have top tier genetics you look small as fuck at 175lbs 10% when you're not short as fuck. BTW most of those guys in the bb forum pics are most probably using something.

This is some grade A bullshit that the media has fed you that all women gravitate towards the 175lbs 10% bf skinny faggot. If you don't have a gut hanging over your belt and look relatively decent and have confidence then most women don't give a shit about bf %. Or do you think women run around with calipers and measure every potential mate they see?

In summation you probably don't know shit about lifting or anything at all for that matter if you're this uninformed about this topic.

[–]celincelin31 points32 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Or do you think women run around with calipers and measure every potential mate they see?

Yes. Those calipers are called eyes. Measuring every potential mate is literally the whole point of mating.

[–]whatsariho-3 points-2 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

And as we all know the eyes are the most accurate way of measuring bf %. Literally millions of bros do it everyday by looking at themselves in the mirror and report their findings on the internet. From gathering all that data we know that the eyes can measure bf % with accuracy of up to a percentage point.

[–]celincelin16 points17 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

As we all know human eyes are the most accurate way of measuring human aesthetics, including ratios, body fat and everything else.

[–]whatsariho0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

You don't seem to be grasping what I'm saying.

OP and apparently you are going on about some bf % numbers while you don't seem to have any clue what so ever which bf % actually corresponds to which appearance. The people who report themselves to be 10% are actually 15% and the ones saying they are 15% are more like 20%. Most self reported numbers are notoriously underestimated.

You can certainly look fit with even 20% bodyfat. It depends on your height, on your weight and where you're carrying it.

This so called aesthetics you're talking about is in your head. No woman is going around estimating bf% and choosing a guy because he is 5% lower in bodyfat. Yes appearance matters but no woman is skipping you or choosing you over 5% bf difference. The only people that are interested in this number is you and the gym bros with whom you have a semi homoerotic dick measuring contest when you are looking at each other from the corner of your eyes while doing curls in front of the mirror.

[–]vast_rightwing 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

its just a way to have the conversation in a succinct way ffs. dont be such a pedant. When he says 10% bf in the context of aesthetics, he means 'looks like most people look at 10%.'

[–]whatsariho-2 points-1 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You aren't getting anywhere. Instead of trying to desperately shaving off that last 5% of your bf and arguing on the internet about what's actually the best bf% to pull women maybe read some books and try to learn to hold a conversation and actually become an interesting person.

Instead of going on about RP philosophy and the ideal bf%....

EDIT: It's all about the mindset. Shit I've been training for most of my teenage years and the whole of my adult life and I can't spout enough about the positive effects of training on your confidence, health and a shitload of other aspects that carry over into your life.

However this obsession with a certain look you think women go for is totally pathetic. I'd go so far as to say it's even anti RP since you aren't doing things not for yourself but because you think it pleases women. If you are training with that mindset then as soon as you get some steady pussy you're going to let yourself go again and become this weak blubbering weakling.

Fuck that shit. It's for dummies.

[–]10211799107-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Powerlifting and pulling a heavy fucking Deadlift PR (500lbs+) does more for your confidence than any caliper warrior with "abs" will ever understand. I move a shit ton of weight while these skinny curl bros with their gloves do their 20 sets of curls and end the day with a few sets of leg extensions.

Doing shit "for women" is the most retarded thing. Leave these idiots to dial in their body fat, they're delusional.

[–]3trplurker2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your correct in that virtually everyone who reports BF% is removing 4~5% from it. They are completing forgetting essential body fat required for humans to continue breathing, from there it goes up another 4~5% to be healthy and not suffer from several muscle problems. 7~8% is the lowest someone can get without being in crippling pain and they won't be able to perform athletic events until their around 10%, which is ridiculously cut.

The "ideal" BF percentage is in the 12~17% range depending on body type and fat distribution. That's actual body fat, so an "internet" body fat of 8~13. It's enough for essentials fat around organs, secondary fat to serve as a shock buffer around nerve endings and muscles, with a small amount remaining to soften and humanize the image.

Females scan mates not for some mythical "body fat percentage" but for their genetic health and ability to provide security. A super body building looks unhealthy and inhumanly grotesque as a sexual object.

[–]Jason-Genova2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Wasn't Frank Zane like 200ish at 10%?

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Great post and totally on point.

, rather than through spot reduction, although some deposits deplete faster depending on your genetics.

Yes, spot reduction is utterly debunked and it's exactly as OP says. It was a manufactured myth, perpetuated by people's need to believe.

It's no secret that the vast majority of male actors, models and sex symbols are all low bodyfat. Even the ones that are above 200lbs (Statham) have chiselled faces and low bodyfat

Exactly. Attractive male actors are now startlingly low BF.

Many guys tend to put fat on their faces as they bulk,

Got a babyface? Cut down the BF!

Also - still freaking lift. It helps with BF reduction, and you want some muscles to go with that cut physique.

But how do I get low BF, Matty?

Lift, cardio (3 x 20 minutes at high intensity per week), 500 calorie deficit under your baseline, weigh yourself weekly to check progress, you'll lose 2 lb per week.

It's that simple. It's hard. It's very hard. But it is simple.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorFieldLine0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Underrated how hard it is. I train Muay Thai five days a week which burns a lot of calories, so I've always just put away as much food as I could stomach while lifting four days a week, generally eating clean.

About two months ago I decided to see if I could trim down for the first time in my life, so I started eating a little less. I've been losing weight, which is good, but my squat's dropped from a set of 5 at over 300 pounds to less than 225. Weak.

I hate making excuses -- I've pushed through super inflexibility (I programmed in stretching), not knowing how to cook (I learned), with literally no time in my day as a full time student with a full time job -- but this is the one time I'm going to blame my shitty genetics. If I don't see my abs soon I'm going to lose my shit

[–]TRP VanguardWhisper2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Any time you lose weight, some part of that will be fat, and some part will be muscle.

Any time you gain weight, same thing.

You can tweak the percentages with what you do, but catabolism and anabolism, are, to a great extent, whole-body states.

On the whole, I am less than thrilled with the current visible-abs fad. It's not strength. It's just being skinny. I've seen eight-year-old girls with visible abs.

If you bench less than 300, squat less than 400, or deadlift less than 500, you have no business walking around at 10% bodyfat. All it does is make sure you never will get your lifts up to decent intermediate numbers.

Having abs doesn't even make you look good, because the moment you put your shirt on, no one can see them, and you're just another tiny dude.

Ditch the abs for a while, lift heavy, eat lots of food, and get huge shoulders, a big chest, thick arms, and tree-trunk thighs. Look like a monster even when fully clothed. Then get your abs if you still want them.

[–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

, but my squat's dropped from a set of 5 at over 300 pounds to less than 225. Weak.

Lack of strength or lack of energy? Are you doing cardio?

If I don't see my abs soon I'm going to lose my shit

Yeah, this needs good abs and around 8-9% BF

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Remember to keep the numbers healthy.

I have been competition-ready shredded and I've had a lot of problems with libido and joint pain (main reason = low %bf). Never mind the loss of strength that can get on your ego easily.

It's always good to look at yourself and decide if you want to build parts of your body up or shred the fat. Don't focus on the numbers, especially with %bf.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

It’s very motivating to see pics of face gains on guys who weren’t particularly fat to begin with. Every little bit of bf% lost makes a difference.

Usually face gain pics involve a heavily obese ‘before’ image, but a lot of guys are probably like me and are neither fat nor cut, guess that’s what happens when you lift but don’t give a fuck about what you eat. Excited to see what happens to me as I just started a serious cut yesterday.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Goodluck my bro

Keep me posted

I'm cutting too :)

[–]arthurabyssal7 points8 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

Okay lets clear something up Right Now. Eating loads of food and whatever you see will not make you build muscle faster. There is this mentality that you have to be stuffed all the time to "bulk" - whatever that means. All that will do is spike insulin throughout the day and cripple what really causes growth: growth hormone and testosterone levels. It is true that you have to have amino acids in the blood but how much do you think sugars and excess insulin in the blood help muscle growth and hormone optimisation?

Muscle is protein, not carbohydrate. Don't spew that you need loads of carbs to gain muscle, the majority of golden-era bodybuilders watched their carbs, such as Ric Drasin, Frank Zane and Vince Gironda. Yes muscle weighs a lot but harldy as much as people think. I started lifting as a skinny boy 7 months ago at 60kg and now I weigh 61 kg. However a lifeguard came up to me saying how different I looked and other people at the gym and friends are always asking how I "built so much muscle". Truth is, a huge component of 'muscle-growth' is capillary growth which supplies more blood to the muscle, although some growth is myofibrilliar growth. Still, how much do you think an extra inch around your arm will weigh? My arms are huge compared to 6 months ago but I don't weigh much more. I have kept very lean the whole time and whereas I could only deadlift 90kg max, I can now deadlift 120kg which is around twice my bodyweight. Chest is much bigger and stronger but it doesn't weigh much.

Point is a vastly improved body shape with chisseled muscles and fibres showing on the shoulder etc does not mean many kilograms or pounds of extra weight. Eat well-sourced meat, liver (best natural overall supplement for endurance, energy, protein and acne), eggs, butter, monounsaturated oils and avocados and vegetables. Anything else is essentially sugar and should be thought about carefully. Don't tell me about glycogen loading. The body makes more than enough glycogen. Weightlifting a few times a week does not deplete glycogen stores fully, marathon running does, and even top marathon runners are adapting their bodies to fat-burning with high fat low carb diets. The body makes its own glycogen. The whole idea of bulking is silly bananas. It is not an excuse to eat junk and bloat-up on carbohydrates and make your health suffer. Stop obsessing over calories they mean less than you think when you take into account people's different microbiomes and insulin resistance. For example, cutting on a high-carbs diet causes high insulin levels meaning you are more likely to atrophy (burn muscle instead of fat). Calories do not mean everything. Eat when you are hungry and skip breakfast. A carb-based diet makes you always hungry whereas a healthy fats and protein diet regulates hunger properly.

[–]Its_scottyhall13 points14 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

There is a LOT of misinformation and bad data in the above response.

[–]EnzoGold5 points6 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Please point it out and prove it wrong. We cannot accept your statement as the truth without proof.

[–]Riftactics0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Should rather get the original commenter to provide proof. A lot of what he said is straightup wrong. Don’t listen to him.

[–]arthurabyssal1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Insulin 'locks' fat release from fat cells and allows for atrophy in diabetics and people with insulin resistance. Insulin resistance is prevalent in more people than you realise: even in athletes due to overconsumptuon and reliance on carbohydrates. Look up Tim Noakes.

High levels of insulin is the reason diabetics lose muscle mass. The liver manufacturers glycogen from amino acids in a process called gluconeogenesis in healthy individuals.Although small amounts of carbohydrates from healthy sources can aid in manufacturing glycogen. However with a lot of B-vitamins from liver for example, creatine (from duck or from supplementation) and electrolytes and minerals (sodium potassium and magnesium) one should not need to stuff their muscle with glycogen to have energy for a workout.

Are you saying muscle is not made of proteins?

[–]danboy48-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

A) Diabetics don't produce insulin

B) if you're eating sub caloric of your personal maintenance you will lose regardless of insulin

C) You weigh less than a bar with one plate on each side. Hardly someone I'd want to take advice from.

[–]arthurabyssal-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

A) depends on type 1 or type 2 you BOZO. B) Yes you wil lose weight on a caloric deficit but if you need to lose weight you likely have some degree of insulin resistance, therefore you will lose muscle if you reduce calories while having high carbohydrates. C) I can deadlift double my bodyweight, win the 1500 and cross-country, sprint, swim 2 lengths underwater and almost have the proportions of a men's physique contender. I don't care about weight.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Looks fine to me. Don't see anything wrong there. Not enough people know about insulin resistance and the mechanisms of insulin

[–]Endorsed Contributorvandaalen0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Shittiest comment of the week. Point out what's wrong and why.

[–]Redagogue2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Growing up, I was a fat kid that got no attention from the ladies. Eventually I manned up and took responsibility and lost the weight. Life got way better, way more confidence, more attention, etc. However, I went from fat to skinny fat as a result of just dieting with no exercise. I was petrified of becoming fat again after experiencing how much better being normal was. Later on, people started mentioning off-hand that I was skinny. Sometimes I would get light headed and easily tired. As a man in his 20's in his supposed physical prime years, I knew it would only get worse. I looked in the mirror and saw myself as I was: out of shape, low muscle, unhealthy. So, I manned up and took responsibility and went to the gym. Not wanting to get fat, I counted calories and macros to do just enough to get stronger and by proxy gain muscle. I did that for about a year, and stopped making progress after a few months. I would get injured, drop the weight to recover, get back to previous level, and get sick/injured/miss workouts. I was dedicated, didn't give up, pushed myself, studied proper form, etc. Being stuck with a sub 250lb squat and other subpar lifts after a year of gym work, I knew something more than bad luck was wrong here. I'm not a special snowflake. So, I manned up and recently took responsibility and started eating more.

In the last few months, I've blown through PR's almost every workout. Life is better, and now I'm reaching my goals at a resonable rate. My point is that fat is easily lost and gained. Unless you're in your teens and early twenties, building muscle is going to be a battle. Don't fuck around, like I did, with "slow bulking" or "lean gains" for fear of fat. I'll be clear here, as idiots with poor reading comprehension like to make straw men: I'm saying don't eat like a pig and dirty bulk. However, the vast majority of the people on this sub need to realize that once you have a decent foundation of strength and muscle, cutting is much much easier. Past the first bit of training, you will have to make a choice between losing fat and gaining muscle. Trying to do both at the same time is going to take orders of magnitude longer than standard bulk/cut cycles.

I have been fat, I have been skinny, and now more muscled. At the end of the day, if you have the discipline to change your body composition and know you can do it, then being 6-8% more fat for a while to optimize muscle growth won't even bother you.

[–]Nihev2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your face is not puffy at 17% bf

[–]Ninokun1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Women prefer Abs much more then Big Arms or Big Legs.

Men always say never skip Leg day but Women actually give Zero, zilch,0,de nada shit about that at all!!!

.

Have low enough bodyfat so u have abs and defined Jaw and Cheekbones, Use the Pull down lat machine so u have kind of a broader Frame.

[–]Noodless001 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

All bro science. Want to have a healthy face that glows make sure you are getting your vitamins A, B, C, K ect..... and don't be the peanut butter, oily face guy, wash your face daily.

[–]coco544015 points16 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Eat decent real food and exercise. You can't buy a healthy body at the Vitamin Store.

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Want to have a healthy face that glows

Okay, but you will still have a double chin if you don't control your bodyfat percentage. But enjoy the glowing double chin. ;)

[–]RamblingBanana5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

He stating that your face will become more defined as you lose body fat and therefore decrease the amount of fat on your face. How in the world is that bro science?

[–]Retiredmagician2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

"Having low% bodyfat makes your face look thinner"

"Nah that's fucking bro science man"

ummm you should be taking care of your face regardless, but having silky smooth and clear skin when you're 250lbs and obese will only make you look like a hard boiled egg.

[–]refusewool 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Any evidence for the vitamins? Or is that Broscience too

[–]3LiveAFTSOV5 points6 points  (60 children) | Copy Link

warriors dont care about being pretty, they care about murdering their enemies, usually by being bigger and stronger

if you're 150 lb and 18-20% lb, and you cut to 10-12% bf to get that "chisled jaw" look, you will also weigh 135 lb, look like a scrawny kid, and intimidate no one. So much for "warrior ethos."

Cut after you've reached milestones. 165, 185, etc.

Also, lean bulking will result in a steady growth of muscle, without fat, slowly, therefore BF% lowers naturally

[–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

warriors dont care about being pretty

I find it funny that people cite UFC as a reason why you are wrong. They are not warriors. Warriors kill people. Their fights last seconds and someone is bleeding out and dying when it is over. Spend some time with special forces guys. Most of them (but not all) keep some extra body fat on them because it improves survivability.

As for the guys talking about height. The two baddest motherfuckers I ever knew were under 5'8". One was a combatives instructor for the Rangers and he would destroy any of you faggots. The other was a half-japanase, half-mick marine that could throw a man twice his weight across a room (yes, I witnessed this). Both were heavy into fitness and both weren't 5% bf scrawny dogs.

[–]Jo0wZ11 points12 points  (33 children) | Copy Link

I'm 198lb and 18% bf, but only 5'6. I look like a fucking russian bear wrestler. I've been on a test cycle for the last 3 months. I've never had this much attention when 13% bf. Women can smell the the testosterone. The difference with being a pretty face chad is that, yes, women throw themselves at him but as a swole bear you can just walk up to woman, and take her without much struggle.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV8 points9 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

sometimes i feel lucky for you shorter guys - can you imagine being 7 foot tall, 220 lb of muscle, and STILL looking skinny as shit? look at Kevin durant lol.

Also, im sure the test raised your muscle mass, that could be it too.

anyways good luck with your cycles

[–]banjew4 points5 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

sometimes i feel lucky for you shorter guys

We look great on camera yes.

In real life...invisible. Like a 40yo divorcee.

[–]Jo0wZ6 points7 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

That's because you have a holocaust body :)

[–]coco54404 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm sure Mr. Durant is doing just fine with the ladies.

[–]2mental_models2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

6'9 basketball player build here.

I can confirm that there are some aesthetic differences as you get into the 'too-tall' range. A little higher bodyfat % (talking vs. being shredded, not talking fat) is probably better. Shoulders, lats, posture are very important. Core strength is very important (imagine these 5'7" russian bear ninjas angrily moving around your rib level at a club).

I'm sure Durant is doing fine lol.

[–]vast_rightwing 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

5'10 barefoot (most people assume I'm 6' bc everyone lies about their height). Wouldn't want to be more than a couple inches taller. Everything in the world is made to fit me and women still call me tall. It'd be nice to be 6'1 or so, esp in your twenties, but I think height is way overrated past that.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

what country do you live in?

[–]Andgelyo2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Disagree, to truly slay you have to have an athletic and lean look. That way, you look approachable but also look strong enough to fight off other people. Fuck that jacked up, so swole that I can even externally rotate my shoulder to wipe my own ass look. Also fuck that skinny, twinky, Iittle boy look. The best of both worlds is the answer. I’d rather look like a warrior who is quick and powerful.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

lol 6"2 240 lb Russian checkin in...

i can confirm above

[–]Mr_Jackabin1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fucking props for being honest about the test. Test usage doesn't bother me, I'm natural myself. What fucking bothers me is liars, who can misguide newcomers in to thinking an unnatural physique is natural. Kudos to you

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

but as a swole bear you can just walk up to woman, and take her without much struggle.

And then catch an abduction charge?

[–]banjew12 points13 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

And then catch an abduction charge?

Only of you are ugly.

1) Be attractive

2) Don't be unattractive.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Girls will always prefer the 6'3 skinny model guy than your manlet ass.

[–]banjew0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Or the 6'3 fat slob.

Or 6'3 anything. So what, there aren't many of them.

[–]Jo0wZ9 points10 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

She won't because of the implication

[–]microgum 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Can you post some pics? I’m 16 and I’ve been stuck at 5’6 and I want to see what I’m looking forward to down the road

[–]Jo0wZ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You can still grow, ask your doctor about HGH. Or get it illegally, but do your research. I rather don't want to post pics of myself, also it's pretty genetic on how you're gonna look, I have a slavic heritage, so I'm naturally more "wider". But something like this. http://www.simplyshredded.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/3675851.jpg

[–]_MysticFox 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

how much did it cost & do the needles suck / leave marks?

[–]Jo0wZ1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

I live in europe, so about 50 euros per 10ml 250/ml Testosterone Enanthate, you need 2 bottles for a 10 week 500mg/wk cycle. and some nolvadex for a post cycle. This is the most basic beginner cycle.

Wk 1-10: Testosteron Enanthate 500 mg/week Wk 13-16: Nolvadex 20 mg/day

I did not take anti estrogens during cycle because fuck that, that shit has more side-effects than actual roids. Watch your bloodpressure (I eat 4 cloves of garlic every morning and evening for bp), 4000 calories everyday all day. (500grams of meat, liter of milk ED, fuckload of eggs) rest what you eat doesn't matter as long it's not candy or processed crap. I use 0,8x40mm 21g needles and yes it does suck the first time (fear) but after a while you'll become a pro. No it doesn't leave any marks if you switch buttcheeks every injection. I go to the gym only 3 times a week, contrary to popular belief that I found out the hard way is that roids don't actually make you superhuman and you actually need to rest more between training days. I found it very easy to "overtrain". I do reverse pyramid training ala Arnold Schwarzenegger (https://www.flexonline.com/training/chest/power-pyramid) and it's the only program I do(I apply this to squats,deadlifts, everything).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

but why you do teste only? why dont u add some tren, deca or dbol? (or both, or all lol)

i mean u shut down ur natural test and potentially risk of not getting back, why not as well add something that will improve the process and gain better results?

[–]Jo0wZ0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Test is a natural hormone, your body knows how to handle it and there is enough research. Other compounds have so many other different side-effects and shit and I don't trust them because there isn't much (trustworthy) research on them. Also I don't want to look like Rich Piana.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

yeah well it does know how to handle your normal test 300-1000 ng/dl

but if you go above it you can get estrogen and other problems so I guess it is as dangerous as tren..

and as said you already shut down your natural test and with few cycles you can kill it completely & end up on TRT or constant cycles...

and I guess some tren/dbol wouldn't make you look like rich piana..

but anyway everyone has their own choice so cant blame you..

I did sust only cycle, I guess combination of all is better than single test

[–]Jo0wZ1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Tren has so many side-effects it's not even funny. It's atleast 5x more androgenic. Test is definitely not in the same ball park as tren.

[–]banjew0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Dude that doesn't look healthy. Are you sure you heart will endure all that shit?

[–]Jo0wZ0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Before I started the cycle I did a bloodtest. I check my BP and heart-rate constantly. On the contrary, I'm healthier than ever. Not eating processed sugars and carbs is main factor in staying healthy.

[–]pevans121 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I wouldn’t suggest jumping into steroids without lots of blood work. Lots of education. A low BF percentage and years of dedicated gym time in a natural progression. You can really fuck yourself up if you do not know what you are doing with steroids.

Imho

[–]isodomize 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Have you ever watched a lower weight division UFC fight? Those dudes are straight chiseled and look good with zero body fat. Nothing wrong with weighing 135-150 lbs. You don't look scrawny and women do want a zero body fat man. They just tell themselves that its all muscle even though you have 1.5 inches of fat over your pecs. And we all know women only know what they feel. So quit making excuses to get on the stairmaster. Who knows it might even help build those things called legs that almost every dude forgets to work out. If you skip your legs then you might as well inject synthol too.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV1 point2 points  (16 children) | Copy Link

You mean these skinny guys? 1 2 3 4 5

Totally not scrawny looking.

This is what 170 looks like - 1

Chiseled, and not a scrawny fuck

Abs matter when you weigh 175, not 145

Also running doesnt build your legs any more than a good squat would

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

Good one, use 3 of your examples for skinny guys from weigh ins, then your 170 guy from inside the cage. That 170 dude also happens to be Sage Northcutt, a young fighter renowned for having an incredibly aesthetic physique. One of your examples is Conor at 145, who is renowned for looking like a crackhead.

Max Holloway (your last example) is 5ft 11 and Featherweight champion. No shit he's gonna be a lanky motherfucker, he still kicks the fuck out of all contenders.

Finally, what's wrong with Cody Garbrandt and Mike Easton?? Both look pretty good to me, just not big guys. Easton's waist is a bit thick, and Cody's tats are fucking awful, but apart from that they look great.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

It doesnr matter where rhe hell they are weighed, only their look at a ceetain weight lol

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Are you suggesting there's no difference in weight between a fighter stepping onto the scales, and that same fighter stepping into the octagon the next day?

[–]3LiveAFTSOV0 points1 point  (9 children) | Copy Link

I'm saying that they will look different at different weights.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

What do you mean? All the guys in the lighter weight classes look skinny, and all the guys above them look fuller? Because that's not true.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

nigga, your favorite fighter would look different at 135 compared to 175 ok fuck

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

Your examples are shit because you compared pictures at weigh ins to pictures in the octagon. Fighters cut water weight to make weight. After the weigh ins they gain all the weight back and look fuller.

Also sage northcutt is on roids

[–]Jo0wZ1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Those tingles won't stay for long when your 150lbs ass gets decked by a fat dude.

[–]Rollo_Mayhem30 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I have to agree. The primary reason I am in the gym is for myself, to be bigger and stronger than the next guy. I'll say this, the 4 years I lifted in college, going from roughly 170 to 190 (10% or less bf) boasted my confidence through the roof and get this, even when I stopped lifting in graduate school and later when working..i still felt the same about my body, even though I am sure my strength dropped and I gained weight. Guess what? IT was mostly in my own head where I needed the most gains.

I also agree it is best to cut down once you reach your weight goal. You can't be worrying about calories when you are trying to bulk, you just need to eat as much as you gain to put on the weight. Unless your really overweight and need to lose 20lbs, cutting 5lbs should not be that problematic.

For example, my personal goal is 200, I've never hit 200 lean. So I am lifting to hit 200 and then I'll cut back 192-195 where ever 10-11% would place me.

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

you will also weigh 135 lb, look like a scrawny kid

A friend of mine is like 145 lb at 5'9 at looks huge for his size. If you have the muscle you're not going to look that scrawny.

[–]3LiveAFTSOV0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

So he looks like the guys in my pictures lol?

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No he doesn't look skinny at all. He looks like he's 160-170 despite being lower. Muscle makes you look bigger than fat.

[–]Retiredmagician0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yea but that doesn't matter as you're just cutting fat, as long as they are losing that weight properly (assuming they're working out) they won't really lose much muscle. A girl would rather be with a thinner guy who then has to add lean muscle then a tubbier one who wants to add muscle first before he "cuts"

[–]kenpachitz 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

Everyone can bulk, but cutting is what separates the mentally strong from the mentally weak.

Used to think this was just macho bullshit.

Let’s just say a month on 1,400 calories per day has made me see things differently.

[–]Ridicatlthrowaway1 point2 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lol your first sentence is about not lifting for women then goes into full fucking article about lifting to satisfy women.

[–]mangoat121 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah it's so ironic. Who gives a shit what retarded women think

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Are you retarded? He clearly stated that you shouldn't be worrying about lifting for women, but if for some reason you only care about looks then you should follow this advice. It's not hard to read.

[–]Snowbattt0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

It kinda depends though. I used to weigh 65 kilo for 1m93 height... I had 10% bodyfat and I looked like shit. You do need some bulk on your frame for muscles to show up.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

65kg at that height is pretty much holocaust survivor mode.

[–]Snowbattt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Exactly. I started lifting weights not because I wanted to become a big bulky beast, but because I was fucking sick of hating the image I saw in the mirror. I'm 20 kilo's heavier now. A little more body fat (14% which is still fairly OK) but much more muscular. In fact, I rock climb as well and some of my fellow climbers, who are on the skinny side but are still wiry and ripped, say that I'm actually rather muscular for what you'd expect from a climber. I do lift weights though.

And since I also decided to pick up martial arts again, being more muscular also allows me to be able to take more of a bruising :-)

Gaining muscle was one of the best decisions I took. My confidence skyrocketed. And we all know the importance of confidence. You don't need to become a big bodybuilding type (unless that's what you want), but just having some muscle mass, some strength and reasonable fat levels does wonders with how you feel in your own pelt.

[–]Djdonald0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

There’s no one path for everybody. Everyone is different. Some people would respond well to bulking first, some to cutting. I’d rather have a high body fat than look like a DYEL weeb who forgets to eat because I’m killing noobs in league of legends all day.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Any tips on how to cut down bodyfat? I'd say I'm naturally skinny and have pretty low BF but my face is not chiseled as I'd like it to be. Could this simply be due to low T? I've been trying to naturally increase it for a few months now by eating clean, lifting, good sleep, vit D, etc but I haven't noticed a huge difference.

[–]majorketone0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Check this site out Just eat under the number it gives you and its impossible not to lose weight. Supplement cardio if you want to be able to eat more.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Is there any guide on how to do this? Lower body fat while making sure the face doesn't get fatter while bulking?

[–]gstarguru0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Is 5 x 5 strong lifts good for this?

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Good for what? Are you a new lifter?

[–]gstarguru0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Good for ultimately developing a more attractive looking body. Yes I'm 19 and have just started lifting, ive been told to focus on compound movements to begin with and then later add in isolation once iv built u p my strength

[–]LeftHookTKD0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah the advice you got is good. Focus on strength and then once you're putting up intermediate numbers switch to a different program for hypertrophy.

[–]Tosma00-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's absolute shit. I suggest to either download greg nuckols beginner programs, try Alberto Nunez or Lyle mcdonald's (both lack glute work) upper Lowers or even stopanni's shortcut to size. My first program was Layne Norton's PHAT and I put on 10-20 lbs, and squatted 3 plates in a bit more than a month. It was tiring (mentally and physically) tough.

[–]zenguyva0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your strategy depends on where you're starting from. First question is how much of your weight is fat and how much is muscle. If you are active and or do jobs that require strength and lifting then you may have lost of muscle. Cutting may be your best bet. If you're new don't have much muscle and need to lose wt you may as well begin with cutting. After all, you're not going to be lifting heavy for awhile and you can cut and spend some time getting your form right so you're ready when you are able to lift heavy.

Also, there is nothing wrong with cycling between building and cutting phases, lots of pros do that.

There is not and never will be a "right answer" it's just about finding the strategy that works for you, and will keep you doing this for the long run. It's not a 50 yard dash it's a marathon. Do it for life.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm still fat at 5'11" 240lbs (down from 360 last year), lifting heavy for hour once per week with a trainer.

Eating 300 cal deficit, but I should be doing more cardio than lifting at this point? Goal is to be at 200lbs by march.

(Thanks for the post, btw. Can't stop here at normal fat dude attracting post wall roasties. College chicks or bust baby.)

[–]Tosma000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You should lift 3 to 4 times a week. You absolutely don't need a trainer. Nice progress. Look at leangains or IIFYM.

[–]frogNews0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

What's the best way to burn body fat? Does cardio like jogging work, and for how much per day?

I do jogging for 30min every other day. At 5'10" 177lb, not sure if I'm at a good range for bmi.

[–]Tosma001 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lifting weights lowers body fat. high intensity cardio too. 177lb is good if you have an average to above average frame. Check itnermittent fasting or iifym.

[–]Rss1110 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Came here to say that Leangains (research that) saved my life

[–]Matematik1500 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

The problem is that the leaner you get the weaker you get. When your bench falls for 100lbs trust me you will feel like shit and wont notice the mires you are getting

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I love the 10% at 175 and 17-18% at 210. Those are very impressive stats, actually.

My point is that you'd have to be an advanced lifter to be legitimately 10%bf at 175lbs. Most who think they're that lean are actually closer to 14 or 15. Just because you can see your six pack doesn't mean you're 10%.

And 17% at 210? I'm 6'1" with super broad shoulders and a barrel chest. I've been lifting seriously for 5 years and at 210lbs I'm closer to 25%bf.

At 175lbs I'd be close to 10% but I'm definitely above average in lifting, height and genetics.

[–]Tosma001 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

No offense but those stats are absolute shit. Do something. Even more if you claim to have a big frame. 6'1 200-210 10-12% 300+ bench 400+ squat is easy as fuck in 5 years.

[–]BigArmLife0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

No one understands our pain

[–]strikethrough1230 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When I was skinny as fuck (110-120) my bodyfat was naturally low. If you're skinny as fuck, don't let this post make you think that you're in the clear because your bodyfat is low.

[–]EtMementoMori0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Don't cut until you bulk. Don't cut if you are skinny as hell and has no muscle. Again, DO NOT CUT if you have no muscles. If you have 10% body fat and 20% of muscle, you do not look Aesthetic. If you want to look aesthetically while not eating like a crazy to bulk, do lean-bulking and eat clean, that's a slow-but-sure way to go.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great post, OP, thanks for the info.

I don't think the "building power" flair is correct though? The mods made a message about it ages ago, and it sounded more like political/social power for the trp ethos.

[–]berryfarmer0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

also to get rid of the face puffiness keep your thyroid in check, see / r / iodide and no there's not enough in your salt or food, also need cofactors

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Explain? I've actually had some thyroid issues in the past

[–]berryfarmer0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

The books in the sidebar in / r / Hashimotos will explain better than I can

Levothyroxine is the #1 drug in America (thyroid hormone) for good reason. 95%+ of people are iodine deficient

I have been on it for a year and a half (with companion nutrients) and the before & after of my face reflects how slim it has gotten. Have a lot more stamina and power in the gym now and better results not to mention better chess scores (see / r / altboron too)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

so how do i get enough iodide?

[–]berryfarmer0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Lugol's solution (jcrow), but I highly encourage (if not mandate if that's possible) that the books be read beforehand. For a sneak peek put a few drops on your sperm producers for a demonstration

[–]sansar_fighter0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think We add full compound exercises my list instead of İsolation Ex. This is good idea ?

[–]danboy48 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

A) you didn't specify and to add type two can still eat carbs if they exercise. Exercise is a greater stimulator of GLUT-4 than insulin alone.

B) untrue you could not NEED to lose weight, NOT have insulin resistance, but decide to cut cause you WANT to be leaner. You're speaking in absolutes which is retarded.

C) I can do all those things, 40 kilos heavier than you. You want a medal? Suck it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

what in tarnation are you talking about ?

[–]danboy48 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

You could be healthy weight (not need to lose weight)

You could be healthy weight and fit (not have insulin resistance, since that's typically related to metabolic syndrome). The last part you could just want to cut, to cut, you don't need to be overly fat first. As for GLUT-4 it's a glucose transporter into the muscle and fat cells

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GLUT4

[–]Forrix170 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Height matters with this I think. Women always go on about wanting to feel small and protected by their guy. If you're short its probably better to error on the side of high bf (but not obese/beer belly) and focus on getting as muscular as possible.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Agree completely. Need to be bigger than your girl. Tall guys can get away with being less muscular

[–]Greek-God-Brody0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Staying lean long-term is easy if you get the fundamentals right:

  • Calories in - calories out & Macros Tracking
  • 80% of your diet should consist of whole, nutritionally-dense, unprocessed foods
  • Emphasize your training on heavy, compound exercises in the 4-6 rep range and add isolations on top of that
  • Lean bulk instead of dirty bulk. Maximize muscle to fat ratio gained every month.
  • Keep your bulk and cut cycles in the 10-15% BF range to always keep your hormones in optimal state. Bulk until you reach 15%, then cut. Stop cutting when you no longer look muscular in clothes or when you're around 10% BF and / or you see a 6-pack. Repeat this process until you've close to your maximum genetic potential. Then stay lean (8-10% BF year round).

Aim for a protein intake of 0.8 g / lbs of bodyweight when bulking and 1 g / lbs when cutting.

[–]LordThunderbolt0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Have fun being "diced" and "shredded" when u can't even bench your shadow.

[–]epicfadeout0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You do realize that a lot of guys aren't so fortunately blessed with good facial aesthetics, right? For some men, even if they do cut down on excess body fat (which they should), that still isn't going to give them this sexy "angular" face which you speak of.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

But if you're a skinny stick bulk the fuck up, noone gives a shit if you have abs, your a fucking non sexual stick

[–]ironjohnred0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Low body fat directly equates to a more attractive, angular face. There's a reason all those dang media app filters thin your face. It makes you look good. Chicks dig that look.

[–]umadlolx3 1 points1 points [recovered] | Copy Link

i mean why such talks are only heard by guys that try hard to put muscle mass and then end up 170lb skinny fegs? I guess they(you) are making this bs as an excuse to justify being skinny..

  • Some people look better with higher bf
  • People store fat in different parts of body, many can be fat but have good facial aesthetics
  • It's not only about facial aesthetics

i have slept with around 40 different women(yeah i had tally until 36th, then had few more(not sure exactly how many more) & then got a gf.

when it all started, i was rolling at around 6% bf for few years prolly 17-21, this is because i was boxing/mma for 4x a week and lifting 3x a week so training every day, sometimes i did 2 workouts in 1 day like morning mma-evening lifting..

so @ 17-21,

  • I was low body fat
  • I had defined facial aesthetics
  • Kept nice haircut & no facial hair 24/7
  • Focused on getting nice & trendy clothes

end result = was quite hard to get laid, had to struggle quite a lot and chase girls a lot... Online girls didn't really fall for my pics much, even though i put nice pics with defined jawline and chit..

now i am 24, slightly older, around 18% bf, much bigger when compared to before, barely visible abs, a lot of body hair..

And now i get attention from all girls, young & older & cougars as a bonus, i mean more girls seem to fall for my profile pics and talk to me irl and it is much easier to approach girls...

I am not sure this is because of looks or because my anxiety is gone and literally dont care if i get rejected or smth, but i can't remember getting rejected.

Like I'm one of the biggest guys in my gym and we have mirrors everywhere, so in many angles u have like whole gym view.. But when im lifting i can notice attention from many girls, and often get approached, like they ask how to use this and that or just help, some girls just come over for a chat..

like the other day those two barely legal girls, with a really good and thick squat booties came over to talk to me, asked why they never see me out etc... (clearly interested in me)

of course this comparison is not the best, as i am going to a community gym, and in a more complex gym with more people looking bigger & better than me i would get less attention but still..

it's not only about looks, it's just about your personality, timing, places you visit, confidence...

[–]Jason-Genova4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I find that hard to believe you were 6%. That's shredded glutes contest bf. Unless you were on gear you weren't fucking anyone.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

not really hard to be on 6% bf if you have good diet and do a lot of cardio..

here is my pic at around 8-10% bf when I just started bulking,

im at work so I cant really post any other pic, this is my avatar pic on bb forum

mypic

I stayed quite lean between 6-8% bf for years.. but idk sometimes when I didn't eat for long time I would get dizzy and lightheaded, probably because there is not much fat available to burn.. (when ur low bf, it is hard for your body to reach some fat cells so it struggles.. I'd say it is easy to maintain 8% bf but below that is a bit harder and requires more dedication (unless u naturally have really high metabolism)

I did two cycles later when I quit boxing and got tired of eating clean

and even when I was cycling it was really hard to stay lean, due to heavy water retention and increased hunger.. I mean people do clen/tren/anavar to lose weight but I haven't done that.. just basic cyp, deca, dbol, which doesn't really help you losing weight..

and I didn't really care about that because im more in to powerlifting

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Women like sexual contrast, dipshits. Be bigger, taller, more confident, risk taking, irrationally confident, arrogant with strangers, etc. Be a big, badass dude. Size and height are the most important for the physical side of attraction.

Body fat is only important if you’re short or obviously have type 2 diabetes. Six packs only matter on tinder.

[–]gaki1235 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Lmao. Hilarious cope. I bet you are american and fat.

[–]banjew0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

They really looks nicer to me, but then again I'm a men. Don't know the beauty standards of women. I think women in general despises too thin guys.

[–]coco54404 points5 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Don't know about too thin -- but from painful experience I can tell you women despise guys who are fat (no matter how strong they may be).

[–]banjew0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes, no doubt about it.

They don't like fat guys, nor thin, scrawny guys.

They like a perfect, mucled body, I don't think anybody is denying that.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Girls like good looking guys. Doesn't matter how jacked you are, Justin Bieber would still fuck your bitch unless your face looked better than his.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Fucking incel talk bro. Looks arent as important to women and you would never fuck a butterface?

[–]Brinko19900 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Looks arent as important to women

Can't believe some guys still buy this nonsense.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Would you date an ugly girl with money and a good personality?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children) | Copy Link

Sacrifice a year of two and do proper bulk to get size. Cut and maintain. Get little surplus for 14 weeks and do slow cut. Repeat.

You can't be LEAN and BUILD.

[–]coco54400 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Maybe not 4 or 5 % BF but maintaining a max 10 or 12% BF while you train is the way to go (or getting their ASAP if you're fat).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

I always look at my abs in the mirror and control the weight. If I am gaining and have a little bit of abs there - continue the kcal intake. when I see that weight stopped and there's no abs - mini cut. Effective and easy to maintain.

[–]coco54401 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

the abs vs no abs boundary is usually around 8-12% so it looks like we pretty much agree.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am keen to agree to agree

[–]RedPill_Swinger0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Cutting fat made even that Chinese looking guy's hair regrow... wtf guys? That topic is fake as hell

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Actually, cutting calories, intermittent fasting, etc, can spike human growth hormone, drop testosterone (which slows down androgenic balding/can reverse it temporarily), and so on. All of these things can have minor effects on hair, especially if you're balding. I'm sure some of his hair just came back temporarily (1-2 years, or whatever).

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

facial aesthetics improve a lot as you go down in bodyfat percentage.

I can confirm this 100%. Around 10-12% bf my cheeks start to hollow out & it looks aesthetic as fuarrrrkkk.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Partially true. Girls want a big guy over a skinny six pack any day. Most guys would feel better being bigger than leaner too, especially if they're not brand new to working out. All the noobs want is a six pack.

However, there is a lot of truth in what you're trying to say. I bulked for about a year and a half last bulk, got very big, felt very confident, felt very attractive. Went from 8% shredded 8 pack to probably 17%, huge and strong and 2 back. I cut back down recently and female attention is through the roof. I modeling in my teenage years so I have a great face structure/jawline. Looking at pictures from before my recent cut, all that was gone. I actually looked fat, when at the moment I thought that was the best I looked and was dreading the cut. Now at the end of my cut, yes I'm a little smaller but throw a sweatshirt on and I look the same size with a razor for a jawline.

[–]Torabor64-2 points-1 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

OP you are a retard. I began at 130lb and you could see my ribs if I took off my shirt. Literally no one respected me or liked me. After gaining 20 pounds on starting strength doing gomad and getting fat everyone treated me much better. Now I don't even care about aesthetics, I'm just doing strength training and I will get as fat as I need to be to progress at that.

Also, girls will get more wet from you picking them up and throwing them at your bed than from seeing your six pack. That just makes you look like a tryhard at their eyes.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

What kinda girls are you fucking, a bunch of landwhales? If that's the case, then please keep progressing at powerlifting as this is the only way you will be able to pick up your fatass bitches. Any man with half decent strenght can pick up a woman and throw her in a bed.

[–]auto-xkcd371 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

fat ass-bitches


Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This comment was inspired by xkcd#37

[–]Torabor640 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

That was just an example of functional strength, I didn't say that you should lift exclusively to throw a girl to a bed jesus fucking christ how stupid do you need to be to not get that.

Also, when I was 130 I couldn't even deadlift my own weight, so ...

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

God, the last girl I fucked it would have taken us both to throw her on the bed.

[–]Chikinhok0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

When you hit 230, the decision about whether or not to start cutting will become more nuanced

[–]SwoleyMoleyFrijoley-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Fastest way to look like you put on ten pounds of muscle is to lose ten pounds of fat.

[–]chillledoutnumber-1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

At 6'0, I've had much better results with girls at 185lbs and 12% body fat than I have at 210 and 18% body fat, so there is truth. Most women seem to prefer the swimmer build compared to bodybuilder build, like it or not.

[–]1scissor_me_timbers000 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah swimmer body is generally mentioned as the ideal

[–]protozoic_girl_scout-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Bulking is a meme. We all know this by this point, don't we?

[–]Andgelyo-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Disagree with all these lazy lards saying that without a doubt being softer and rounder attracted them more women. I’ve never been a fat ass obese dude, but I’ve been everywhere from thin and ripped, to soft and out of shape, to medium sized and athletic (my body now- developed shoulders, and lats, and chest). Without a doubt my body now attracts WAY MORE women than ever before. Even more so when I was ripped and lean in my undergrad and high school days. The one thing that never attracted women in my experience was being a soft, pudgy guy.

[–]zielkarz-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, it's easier to lose fat when you are muscular. Focus on muscle mass first.

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Absolutely agree with this. I've been on a vegan diet for over 7 months now and I'm ~10% body fat. I got myself Nokia Body Cardio scale which measures your body fat percentage as well as weight, heart rate, muscle mass, water percentage etc. Helps me to track my progress.

I see lots of guys at the gym just bulking up with massive stomachs due to poor diets. Doesn't look attractive IMO.

[–]TheMannarino-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

All these dudes over 15% bodyfat trying to justify it by saying they're stronger are all deluding themselves. When I was the 300+lbs fat SHW powerlifter, no one gave a fuck about my lifts, let alone my aesthetics. Now that im the 190lbs dude at 8% bodyfat squatting 500+, benching 350+ and deadlifting 700+, things are a LOT different. Suck this humble-brag lmao. You can be strong, lean and natural if you work hard enough. Quit hamstering and cut the chub. And fuck what girls think, if you're obsessive over your physique because of females then you're no different than they are. Being lean and strong FEELS amazing, almost super-human. And the side effect is chicks dig lean, jacked and strong dudes, so its a win-win.

[–]Galbert123-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Dont pedastalize aesthetics. Utility is number one. Train to be ready for any phsycial required at a moments notice. Looking good is a side effect of hard work and smart choices.

[–]Luiser27-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I am not changing my goals to "maximize my aesthetic potential". I lift and bodybuild for myself, I rock a very rugged masculine bulky look even though I'm only about 205 and 14% BF.

Because I'm confident and I truly enjoy my look and the way I train, I always outperform the skinny guys who are worried about being super "shredded" and are constantly worrying about not getting fat or dropping that extra pound for their lower ab veins.

If your goal is only to get women sure, go for it. But if you lift mostly to get women, you probably haven't been lifting long enough.

[–]Tosma00-1 points0 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Ideally you should stay under 15% bodyfat even if pursuing strength. I know it can be hard for natties. But going above 20% is not very interesting especially if you care about aesthetics.

Find legit programs if you are a beginner. LyleMcdonald, Layne norton, Greg nuckols, Stoppani.. all developed legit programs. Learn to eat. I think IIFYM works well for me but that's my body. Intermittent fasting can help you. And please stop the shit standards. (Almost) every man can bench 3 plates, squat/dl 4 or 5, and look good around 10-13% bf 23-26 BMI.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/realistic-training-goals/ https://www.strongerbyscience.com/being-strong-is-not-an-excuse-to-be-fat-and-being-fat-is-probably-holding-you-back/

[–]warburgio-1 points0 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I got lost when you said that getting muscles is easier than loosing fat. I got from 'chiseled' 80 kg boxer with 'razor abs' to 105 kg lifting guy with some abs in two years. Difference are huge in all aspects of life, and gives me so much advantage with girls that it is just crazy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I got lost when you said that getting muscles is easier than loosing fat.

Biochemically, gaining muscles is slower than loosing fat, but my point is that it's easier to eat a shit ton and lift with high volume than it is to eat very little and lift with the same volume/intensity (to preserve mass).

[–]warburgio0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, i though so as well, but after some threshold eating becomes a second job. I haven't done large volume training in months so it is hard to tell, but to continue my weight and strength gains I really have to stay focused on eating lots and lots of food. It was definitely easier to go from 80 to 90 than to go from 100 to 105.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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