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Building PowerTo maximize your aesthetic potential, low bodyfat percentage is more important than size (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by [deleted]

Lifting purely for aesthetics or for women is never a good idea IMO, as you should rather have some sort of warrior ethos seared into your mind as you grind yourself through the gym (don't pedestalize bitches, don't disrespect yourself by making a grueling workout dedicated to them), but it is undeniable that getting sex is one of the reasons many men lift. Lifting raises your SMV which in turn gives you more sexual options.

However, to maximize your appearance low body-fat is key. The lean 175lb guy at 10% body fat with that chiselled jawline and sunken cheeks is going to do better with women than that 210lb guy at 17-18% body fat with a puffy face. Don't be the permabulk 20% bodyfat bro. Everyone can bulk, but cutting is what separates the mentally strong from the mentally weak.

As you lower your body fat you improve your facial aesthetics by chiselling out your features. Your fat dissipates from your body in a global way, rather than through spot reduction, although some deposits deplete faster depending on your genetics. It's no secret that the vast majority of male actors, models and sex symbols are all low bodyfat. Even the ones that are above 200lbs (Statham) have chiselled faces and low bodyfat. And the common thread amongst all models, male to female, whether they're muscular and buff or simply normal framed, is their low bodyfat percentage.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=144053401

As you can see above, facial aesthetics improve a lot as you go down in bodyfat percentage. Many guys tend to put fat on their faces as they bulk, and this will lower your SMV steeply until you cut back down again. Women can often get away with chubby faces (they naturally have more estrogen, which results in chubby faces), but men cannot as an angular face is a signifier of testosterone. Further, adipocytes generate estrogen (antagonizes testosterone), and so when you are at a lower bodyfat percentage, you are also generating less estrogen/estradiol (no man boobs).

My next post will focus on the best ways to cut bodyfat, the simple science behind it (calorie balance), and my personal experiences.


[–]1sailorJery 80 points81 points  (7 children)

Dude Jason Statham is like 180lbs

[–]coco5440 22 points23 points  (2 children)

He's 50 years old and still looks great.

[–]Rudeyyyy 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So does Liam Neeson. Throw in Mark Wahlberg and Matt Damon too.

[–]Smilme 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Was going to say this, he's not even big. Additionally 200lbs isn't even big unless you are like 5'10 or under or shredded @ 200

[–]cyberkrist 219 points220 points  (61 children)

Normally just watch, but had to chime in here. Power lifter, personal trainer, and former bodybuilder here. You need to set a goal and do what you need to do to achieve it. That may be cutting fat for some or building size for others. There isn't one formula for esthetics. I carry more fat because strength is my goal. Women like confidence, and that comes from being happy with your body, not chasing what you "think" women want.

[–]Endorsed ContributorMetalgear222 35 points36 points  (12 children)

To be fair, while women like confidence, they also like aesthetics. The speculation is what percentage of women prefer either factor more. I speculate that the lower SMV the woman the more they prefer aesthetics whereas the higher SMV woman prefer confidence.

[–]Pogodick8in69 3 points4 points  (8 children)

Gotta bulk and cut. It’s cycles doesn’t mean become a lard ass

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (7 children)

A lot of guys don't know how to cut, though. They think they can eat at 3k calories everyday, have a deficit of 100 calories, and then stop after a month. No wonder they stay perma 20-25%.

[–]Pogodick8in69 1 point2 points  (5 children)

It’s ridiculous I think Kinobody has cutting down

[–]Smilme 3 points4 points  (4 children)

Yeah because he never bulks

Tbh cutting and bulking 'cycles' are stupid.

If you eat too much in a surplus you'll just get fat too quickly (and the strength gains are not worth it - you'll get a temp. Boost from glycogen storage etc but you'll end up at the same strength level if you bulk quickly or slowly)

And they cut too much, you don't need to be in a thousand ducking calorie deficit to lose weight.

And why don't people do any conditioning anymore? No wonder everyone can't lose weight. Do some hill sprints 1-2x per week while you're bulking and you'll have a better body comp.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I speculate that the lower SMV the woman the more they prefer aesthetics whereas the higher SMV woman prefer confidence.

That's an interesting point. To add to that, I'm thinking that women with lower self-esteem (regardless of SMV) prefer men with higher confidence (regardless of SMV) to boost them up. I see this both my experience (I'm able to pick up someone absolutely beautiful - high SMV - but not 100% confident of herself) and others (I know a female friend - she's nice, and she's dating a guy that's so insecure he's a bit of a know-it-all, but possibly to her it screams self-assurance, which she doesn't have).

Now I'm looking to date only women with high genuine self-worth, self-esteem, and yes, SMV. The trifecta!

[–][deleted] 48 points49 points  (8 children)

Women like confidence, and that comes from being happy with your body, not chasing what you "think" women want

Drops mic

. . .

PS- I agree...Honestly, I'm heaviest I've been, and that's not muscle heavy, it's fat and muscle heavy, and I slay more quality pussy now than before with less effort. From 5'8" 165 of balance to 5'8" 182 lbs

[–]danisleet 26 points27 points  (5 children)

Can confirm the above as well. I've been 205lb with striated glutes and a sunken in Skeletor face and then I've also been 235 with fluff face and soft abs. Without a doubt girls seem to enjoy the softer look more. I think at once you get below about 8%bf (most) girls get turned off by the look or feel you are too far out of their league. I would say the sweet spot of general attraction is around 10-12%. Coincidentally, that bf range is also when I feel the best too, which points back to the confident and happy part.

I will also like to just add one thing for people who are chasing super low levels of body fat-- it will look great, but you will find your sex drive diminished; keep that in mind if you're dieting just to fuck girls.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I had to think what "boyfriend range" was for a second. Yes, now I know you meant bf = bodyfat.

Good point on having just enough fat to look...approachable? I didn't think of that; for me it's more inner game. When I was younger I thought "if I got the body and the looks, I can get girls" now it's the "okay, let's focus on inner game and not on the body and see what happens." I'm also shooting for the ~12 - 15% range now, combining both the inner game with losing a bit of fat/gain some muscle and blend the best of the two.

[–]Ninokun 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Im sure OP is quite fit and therefore Attractive but that its Confidence that does it is just a Lie low class males like to tell themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFnJMPQow7A good Video to not be delusional.

[–]-VaeVictis- 8 points9 points  (16 children)

Plus if you are skinny fat and try to cut all that extra bf before getting some decent muscle size you're going to feel like a kid with a six pack. I'm finally getting to my ideal ratio after my second bulk this year.

[–]MrBallsackEyes 6 points7 points  (15 children)

A skinny guy with a six pack is equal to a fat girl with big tits.

Nothing anybody gets too excited about.

[–]Ninjakiiiid 8 points9 points  (5 children)

I understand your point with this but it's funny because I've seen guys go nuts over a fat girls big tits and girls go nuts over some skinny drug dealers "abs".

[–]MrBallsackEyes 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule. When I was a skinny little weak pussy with a six pack, I got plenty of girls. But now that I am muscular, I easily get twice as many and twice the quality.

[–]Ninjakiiiid 1 point2 points  (3 children)

That's good to hear being a skinny little weak pussy with a six pack currently trying to put on some muscle mass.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I've had times in my life where I looked my best. Cut right down, jacked and tanned but due to stress or other factors that influenced my behaviour, I didn't do well with women. Nowadays, I'm closer to 18%bf (grizzly bear season), but I'm in a good place mentally and I'm slaying tinder broads.

Obviously bf, muscle mass and aesthetics matter, but behaviour is still more important imo.

[–]gaki123 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Power lifter

Why I am not surprised lmao hahahaha

[–]1scissor_me_timbers00 0 points1 point  (13 children)

How does carrying more fat contribute to strength? Serious question

[–]wracky272 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The caloric restriction required to achieve very low body fat levels is not conducive to strength. It's not that fat makes you strong, it's that being strong is very difficult without collecting fat along the way.

It can be done (see: top level low-weight class powerlifters), but takes years and years of strict training, coaching, diet, and (oftentimes) PEDs.

[–]artibonite 1 point2 points  (11 children)

To build muscle you have to be in a caloric surplus, and that's how you store fat as well. Muscle and fat are, for the most part, built and lost together. You can store fat without building muscle, but the opposite is almost impossible. Also, added fat can contribute to an increase in some lifts, such as bench press, due to shorter range of motion and better leverage

[–]1scissor_me_timbers00 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Makes sense. I've hit some pretty high bench and shoulder press number in the last few months, while also gotten a bit tubby around the middle. Like 15% bodyfat maybe? So if I wanted to cut down to 12%, can I do that while still building muslce? Seems like a small cut.

[–]LeftHookTKD 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can build muscle on a cut if you're a novice. Once you get into the intermediate and advanced stages it becomes much harder to build it while cutting.

[–]adam_varg 0 points1 point  (4 children)

not its not impossible, its actually quite simple, unless you are close to your 'genetic max', reason why people spout this broscience nonsense (if you wanna cry for sources - nippard made youtube vid with references exactly about this) is because they rationalize their lack of discipline or not wanting it enough

eat clean 24/7/365 (which means zero sugar except couple pieces of fruit) , dont touch booze and you will recomp

and its not just possible, but more effective than typical bulk/cut approach

[–]artibonite 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I agree completely, which is why i said "almost." There are many studies that show lean mass can be built while losing bodyfat (such as with intermittent fasting or other dietary interventions such as ketogenic diets). Unfortunately, many of these strategies are not widely accepted currently

[–]bigboabydeuchars 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Lean is definately the desired end goal in terms of maximising aesthetics (jawline, abs) but you have to get to a certain level of muscle mass first. There is no point in trying to get shredded if you don't have a solid base.

Unless you live in a hot climate where you can walk about topless all day, noone will even know you work out unless you have decent traps, lats and arms.

I see a lot of young guys in the gym that have very low bf and not much else and they tend to wear skintight white vests to emphasise their abs. These are generally the guys who would benefit immensely from spending six months over the winter training heavy and doing some serious eating.

[–]EdmondDaunts 35 points36 points  (8 children)

Strangely when you have been lifting for a while you get a bit of tunnel vision. You don’t see the progress in as dramatic a fashion. Other people do though.

You don’t see broadening shoulders, thickening legs and neck. But others meeting you for the first time or after a while do. That said, having a chiselled face may be an advantage but unless the whole body aesthetic is there it looks odd. Some people have good facial genetics.

However have the frame and the face. Definitely an advantage. It’s a fitness indicator.

[–]Kingofdeadbedroom 15 points16 points  (6 children)

I notice the broadening shoulders when bouncing off door frames that I would have passed through previously.

[–]ayefranco 31 points32 points  (4 children)

Intermittent fasting. Lifting. Eating fucking well (healthily).

[–][deleted]  (49 children)

[deleted]

[–]trenbologna_and_whey 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Don't underestimate the power of recomposition over bulking and cutting. I followed this chart and have had a lot of success achieving my strength and physique goals.

My progress pics when first starting out (disclaimer: first 2 pics are natural, the rest were on a basic cycle of testosterone): NSFW

[–]Widowmaker_Only 45 points46 points  (36 children)

No u shouldn't. Start out by cutting to 10% then clean bulk to gain mass. Never be one of those permabulking fat fucks with 20+% bf.

[–]FatPowerlifter 42 points43 points  (14 children)

Retard advice. Why would you want the average 14-15% skinnyfat guy to cut himself down that lean? He'll make next no strength or muscle gains while lifting and waste away into nothing. Just eat and lift properly.

[–]Snazzy_Serval 9 points10 points  (9 children)

The average skinnyfat guy is above 15%. Probably around 20%.

[–]FatPowerlifter 9 points10 points  (3 children)

That's just fat, not skinnyfat

[–]1mental_models 8 points9 points  (1 child)

20% is a pretty good number for 'skinnyfat'.

15% you can see abs and stuff. 10% = cut, olympic swimmer.

<10% = extreme bodybuilding 'shredded'

If you are 20% and have no muscle, that's about what the typical 'skinnyfat' guy is.

25% = let yourself go, little bit of a beer belly, can still see some semblance of muscle provided you are strong.

30% = fucking sloppy pig

40% = morbidly obese hop on a walmart scooter

[–]Fapisluv 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To be more exact on what you are saying, bodybuilder shredded is less than 8% off season, and 3% on stage. 10% to 12% is the bf you see your abs, and 10% to 18% is the bodyfat for most athletes. 20% to 25% is the average guy( the average is overweight). At 25% to 30%, the waist is always above 92cm and sometimes even 100cm. Above that you have let yourself go a long time.

[–]Random_throwaway_000 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Skinnyfat, is very low muscle tone, while still having a high Body fat %, thus being skinny (since no muscle) yet still fat.

[–]1mental_models 2 points3 points  (4 children)

If you sub 20% skinnyfat guy who has never lifted, it makes sense.

Eating and lifting properly is going to bring his % down, simply by ratio of muscle% increasing and his newfound energy expenditure. No need to start from Gandhi.

[–]Snazzy_Serval 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Possibly.

Most skinny fat guys have fat in their faces and have a gut but thin arms and weak chest. With a shirt on most people would never think that the guy had that much body fat.

Source (me former skinny fat guy)

[–]bobbobbitybob 14 points15 points  (6 children)

If that permabulking fat fuck is strong as fuck, he will definitely not care. Confidence through the roof. Define clean bulk? I would always recommend finding the maintenance for the calorie intake and then apply progressive overload. You will gain fat. Inevitable when bulking. Control the damage.

[–]asotranq 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Eddie Hall has stated that people saying he looks fat really gets to him, so I don't believe you in the slightest. He's got one of the biggest egos in the weightlifting world too...

[–]bobbobbitybob 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Okay, I do take that back, as they are borderline examples of high stress (both mental and physical) lifestyle and they may not be the best example. I said that from experience, as many of my powerlifting friends are very confident because of their strength. If you make peace with the fact that you need calories to lift heavy, which makes your body to store energy in the shape of fat and one can't be achieved without the other - it's not going to bother you.

I personally bulked for two years to 97kg/213 pounds (I am 183cm tall/6.0ft) and then got to absolutely shredded for photoshoot and comp - I will not do the dirty bulk again because it's simply not efficient.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]bobbobbitybob 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Depends on metabolism, 0.5kg per week is quite a lot and that's a surplus of around 3.500 kcals. Not going to reinvent the wheel here, but I'd stick to maximum 350kcal surplus per day if you know your body well.

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    No u shouldn't

    Yes you should. More muscle = more fat burned per movement.

    [–]enterim 0 points1 point  (7 children)

    What is the best way to cut to 10% WHILE gaining muscle?

    I am currently 2,05 m and 105kg but was planing to gain some additional weight to gain muscles. I already went from 92 kg to 105kg, I was a nerd before.

    Do you have any links / ressources you would recommend

    [–]daxorid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    What is the best way to cut to 10% WHILE gaining muscle?

    One of the following:

    1. Start completely untrained.
    2. Go through puberty.
    3. Testosterone Enanthate + Deca Durabolin + a solid AI protocol, followed by well-designed PCT.

    Without newb gains and/or an exceptional hormonal profile, simultaneous cut/bulk is a fantasy.

    [–]rocknrollchuck 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Michael Matthews' book "Bigger, Leaner, Stronger" gives very detailed bulking and cutting guidelines that I found helpful. No matter what, if you are lifting you will gain muscle - but if you are cutting at the same time, your gains will come very slowly. Better to cut first, then clean bulk after you reach your 10% goal.

    [–]10211799107 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    I'm 1,93m and 112kg. I decided 20 weeks ago I'm going to powerlift. You need a really good strong base first so I'd recommend you strength train first. Get your weight up slowly and do a program like Starting Strength. It fucking works. Once you're strong, you can cut fat and keep the strength somewhat only THEN do you switch to a hypertrophy program to use the heavy weights for volume to make the muscles grow.

    At your height you need to fill out. Don't look like a tall ass stick figure with no back or quad muscles just to be 10% BF. you'll look retarded.

    [–]PaulAJK 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Go to the lean gains reddit.

    [–]BigArmLife 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    You don't go perma fat fuck if you cut lol

    [–]Rp997 6 points7 points  (5 children)

    Would you rather look like a skeleton first or a fat person? That's the ultimate dilemma most skinny fat beginners face ( that are around 17%). I would start off by cutting to get to 10% as you won't look as bad and would still get the noob muscle gains.

    [–]bobbobbitybob 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    I doubt if a person that is at the beginning their journey will handle properly the cut anyway.

    [–]Chikinhok 4 points5 points  (2 children)

    Dont worry about weight at all until u got some muscle, then see where you’re at

    [–]v1ncere 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    It really depends on Where you start, i started Very skinny therefore gaining weight was top 1 priority, and still is. Im still pretty shredded

    [–]-VaeVictis- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Pretty much. I was so focused on getting lean last year that i got the aesthetics of a teenager with a six pack. I'm finally getting to a good ratio after two bulks this year.

    [–]sketchyuser 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I hated being fat (for me that was 205 at 6’2) and I cut down too aggressively without maintaining much muscle to 175. I was too skinny. I think it was still good because it helped put on a lot of lean mass without much fat. This is because cutting made me get good at counting macros and calories and made me fight hard not to gain too much fat. I put on 25 lbs and started cutting again, this time I’m much bigger and my cut won’t be very long.

    If you’re above 15% I’d recommend cutting down to 10-12 and immediately start bulking (give yourself a week or two at maintenance, then lean bulk 300-500 cal surplus). Do it until your chest starts getting saggy or your abs are invisible in the best of lighting.

    It depends on your body type of course, but I’d rather have low body fat and less muscle than high body fat. High muscle low body fat is of course the best option.

    Super low body fat is not a good look on anyone. Keep it above 8%, and maybe 10% is ideal.

    [–][deleted]  (31 children)

    [deleted]

    [–]majorketone 12 points13 points  (2 children)

    210 10% is impossible for the average guy. Even at 6' the maximum muscular potential at 10% BF is 192 pounds. Source: Martin Berkhan Formula

    Edit: Also if you don't have a six pack in any lighting without flexing, you aren't 10% BF

    [–]1mental_models 9 points10 points  (1 child)

    bodyfat% references are one of those things that usually gets distorted online (kind of like looks-scale in field reports)

    If we take ~6ft [email protected]% literally, then NO SHIT, we're talking about a gym rat, possibly someone who uses looks for a living (athlete, model, actor).

    If you are ~6ft [email protected]%, you have no rational worry about bulking, or physique in general other than maintaining/improving weaknesses. You've pretty much maxed out the potential of the physical attraction of your body itself.

    A lot of the readers here have higher % bodyfat, either because of too much fat, or lack of muscle.

    [–]majorketone 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Thank you for being another voice of reason here. People will say they are 6% body fat when that is literally elite bodybuilding level of body fat and a lot of them are on steroids. My guess is a lot of people here have too much fat because heavy lifting is promoted a lot here and you can't lift the same weight at 10% BF that you can at 20%. You just can't.

    Thats fine if thats their prerogative but don't try and bullshit and say you are 10% BF when you have like 2 abs showing in the right lighting.

    [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

    There's no magic weight goal that means more pussy. It all depends on your height and frame. I'm 5'7, 155 with 10% bf and I slay. I have a naturally small frame but I have a lot of muscle on it and look jacked. Like a lightweight boxer or UFC fighter, think Jose Aldo. Any more muscle mass and I'd look silly. I weighed 115 in high school and it took me years to build this much muscle. My numbers could be better but it's tough while maintaining 10%.

    Squat 205 x10 Deadlift 225 x 10 Bench 195 x 10

    [–]All-DayErrDay 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    At what height are you naturally trying to be 210 at 10%.

    [–]1mental_models 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I think the OP did the whole truth-but-obvious thing.

    Is it better to be muscular and lean, than muscular and fat. Hell yea! But no shit, Sherlock.

    If you are overweight, obviously low% bodyfat is the way to go. But if you're are a skinny (not-muscular) dude, swimming in a smedium t-shirt, with absolutely no physical presence, you need to bulk. No you aren't going to do some all-you-can-eat see-food diet, but you definitely aren't going to be 'cutting'.

    Everyone can bulk

    kind of takes that for granted and frames the convo in a narrow window.

    [–]coco5440 10 points11 points  (15 children)

    No!!! Bulking is always a bad idea. Keeping your body fat low actually facilitates long-term muscle growth.

    BTW 175 and 10% are real good numbers for an average height guy.

    [–]reddzeppelin 7 points8 points  (8 children)

    I agree with the last statement. I'm about there except I have less fat more height. My best physique was 188 6 percent or so. But keeping your body fat low only facilitates long term muscle growth, when you're gaining weight.

    I'll set you in on a secret that nobody will believe, but I'll mention anyways. You can cardio bulk. It has to be something like cross country running, rowing or swimming that uses a lot of muscle fibers, but since cardio has less of an after burn than lifting, you can gain more mass by reversing the deficit faster. What's more now you're building an endurance base so that when you cut, by lifting weights in the gym, you will recover better and have more energy for intense sets. This is healthier for your body than traditional bodybuilding, but nearly nobody does it because they want to see instant results. Not subtle slow twitch growth under a layer of fat while they're bulking,mand then they won't believe it's possible to train power while cutting. It is is if you have enough body fat and aerobic fitness to use it as fuel for more intense workouts. You don't intentionally cut weight it comes off because you're aerobically strong enough to burn more calories in a workout than naysayers would ever predict.

    [–]Chriskiwi99 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Can you expand on this? I’m a runner myself, and am curious on how to bulk while also running. I’m eating about 4000 calories a day to go 500 calories above my TDEE and burn from running.

    [–]reddzeppelin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    I'll tell you how I did it. All my runs were on hiking trails because the softer surfaces and rough terrain require more muscle activation. I think it was three 23 minute 5 km runs per week and one day of sprints. See if I did 7 runs per week I'd never grow leg muscle. You could run easy every day though as long as you don't exceed the mileage you can do easily. But the 3 short and hard runs per week are essential those build up your legs and core. This is very important before I ran I always ate an everything bagel with cream cheese and an iced coffee with cream and sugar. The simple carbs, protein, fat combined with the intensity of the workout that's why I wasn't losing weight. Most lifters spend longer than 23 minutes in the gym.

    So you could wake up every morning eat a banana and go for a short easy run whatever that is to you but extra slow and not more than an hour. You need to save your energy for the cross country tempos that will build lower body muscle. Then eat normally all day just rest, honestly using the word tdee is why you can't bulk. Just don't listen to Reddit about calories in calories out theyre autistic or something and don't get that you can't grow and shrink at the same time. You can't outeat overtraining. In running over training is a medical condition. In body building its training more than your muscles can handle, not giving them time to recover befor working them more so they shrink. So since you're also running mileage don't sprint just the tempos and the daily easy runs. Instead of sprinting you might add burpees. But swim or do pull-ups and push-ups or something climb a tree wrestle somebody do something upper body as well two days per week. I think the swimming is ideal for bulking though because immersing yourself in water colder than your body does the opposite of running and getting your body hot it makes you hungry, take cold showers if you don't swim. Again Reddit haha swimmers are thin. Don't listen to them those are competitive swimmers training for hours it will help you bulk and since its cardio you'll still run well.

    So just eat normal don't over do it, it takes energy to process food. The only time you need to worry about a surplus of protein is the meal after you work out, take a whey shake with it if you need more. after that just eat when you're hungry and rest you will be sythesising protein. Ok and then before bed eat at least three bowls of cereal with milk. This will count for more if you haven't been over eating all day you will get more insulin response. It will make you store fat but who cares you're a runner you'll use it as fuel. Eat a bowl of ice cream too if you want. You'll store the carbs in your growing muscle and use those instead of catabolizing them. If you're concerned about blood sugar do air squats and push-ups you'll be fine but nutrition is a lot more complex than adding up calories carbs taken at the right times will do a lot more to fuel your running and facilitate growth because they burn faster than fats and proteins.

    If calories in calories out was true you'd gain as much muscle eating 1000 calories of sugar in the morning as you would 1000 calories of oatmeal. Case in point. Ones killing yourself and ones a hearty breakfast. But if you are going for a morning run oatmeal is an effective and cheap source of calories to come back to apple slices walnuts being good things to add. So in the morning to gain you want slow carbs which fuel your day and then before workouts you want some simple so you never go into a deficit. the casein protein you get from milk is the slowest protein you can get other than eggs I guess you could also eat those before bed if you want I'd rather have cereal. Anyways it's not all the same at all its all different banana eggs oats cereal bagels these things taken at the times I suggest can and will out perform the sum of their calories.

    [–]NitricTV 5 points6 points  (5 children)

    I’m 6’4 that’ll make me look like a twig

    [–]coco5440 5 points6 points  (2 children)

    I'm 6'4" too. My freshman year of college was the first time I had access to a full fledged weight room. I worked out like crazy. I started at 230 lbs in September. By April I was 185 lbs. For the first time in my life I had girls hitting on me. Nothing wrong with being thin if you still look athletic.

    [–]NitricTV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Yo i used to play football in high school (I’m 18 & just graduated)

    I went from 250 to 190 I swear the amount of attention & respect I get now is night and day.

    [–]AlphaGinger66 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    6'4" is not average height whatsoever.

    [–]mwait 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    6'4" also... I had no shortage of interest when I was in the 175-185 range.

    [–]jigglyp33n 34 points35 points  (12 children)

    False dichotomy. The 210 lbs guy at 10% bf has the edge.

    [–]Extremely_Photogenic 16 points17 points  (1 child)

    false dichotomy

    Obviously the guy that's big and lean has the advantage, but so many guys go and put on 20 lbs of muscle and 40 lbs of fat and look like shit until they cut. If short-medium term appearance is your only goal it's better to stay at <13% body fat at all times.

    Lots of scrawny guys think "I'm so skinny I'm going to bulk and get massive arms and these girls will like me". That's not it, he'd be better off getting a little bit of muscle but stay skinny

    [–]coco5440 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Yes! If you're fortunate enough to already be thin don't screw with it.

    [–]LeftHookTKD 3 points4 points  (4 children)

    210 lb at 10% and the guy is probably on roids depending on height

    [–]majorketone 4 points5 points  (4 children)

    Where does this sub get numbers like this? For the average guy those numbers are impossible. The law of diminishing returns will make it impossible for the average guy to put on that much mass at that BF%. Thats why the maximum muscular potential for even a 6' guy at 10% is 192 pounds

    [–]Arabian_Wolf 4 points5 points  (3 children)

    Fellas with high bodyfat (over 20%):

    HIIT in your offdays (non-lifting days, 2-3 times a week) is a must.

    Source: my own prone to getting fat body.

    [–]HelpMeFindNewGlasses 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    What are your fav HIIT?

    I've tried jog sprint so far.

    [–]raywilliam639 5 points6 points  (3 children)

    Facial aesthetics > body aesthetics

    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    Truth

    But why settle for one when you can have both?

    [–]raywilliam639 3 points4 points  (1 child)

    You can't have facial aesthetics unless you were already born with a pretty face

    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    If you were born with a pretty face, it will be an ugly face if your bodyfat percentage is too high.

    [–]skywaspdefensive 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    This to me is like a highschool vs grown-up realization. In highschool it was too much axe spray, chains, and getting as big as possible.

    Over time you realize how to smell, dress, and look.

    Luckily we are splitting hairs here because it takes about the same effort in the gym either way. Like I said it's just slowly learning the subtle differences over time.

    [–]ohsoentitled 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    Actually, studies have shown that for men the body fat that is perceived as health is between 8 and 21% body fat. For attraction, the best body fat percentage is actually around 16% with around 80% lean muscle mass at around 170lbs. Of course this is dependent on your height but the overall optimal physique for attraction is "lean muscular". But it certainly isn't low body fat i.e. <10%.

    [–]Herdsengineers 7 points8 points  (1 child)

    I think the "sweet spot" for each guy is a little different. Some look good at 10%. Some look too emaciated and need to be a little higher. Depends on the body type - ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph. Each has a different individual sweet spot that looks best.

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Ectomorph and so on is a myth, look it up

    [–]h4nkz 11 points12 points  (7 children)

    Everyone can bulk

    Bullshit. Clean bulking is not easy. I find it way harder to get 3,5k kcal / day in with healthy food. It takes a lot of planning and you have to eat even if you are not hungry.

    While cutting, just fast for 16hrs/day, keep your protein high and eat a lot of vegetables

    [–]daringdeviljackass 6 points7 points  (3 children)

    Clean bulking can also be fucking expensive, depending where you live and your stats. At my height and muscle mass, I'd need 3800-3900 kcal a day

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]daringdeviljackass 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      Nah celiac disease, cant have oats and PB. Also where I'm at (south africa) that stuff is expensive (economy is fucked, inflation up). I get by eating organ meats and homegrown fruits and veggies

      [–]Whatisthisbug3333 11 points12 points  (0 children)

      Seriously - it’s easier not to eat than to eat.

      [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

      Well, it is the "clean" part that is hard not the "bulk" part.

      [–]daxorid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Bullshit on your bullshit. This is an extremely subjective topic. Those of us arriving at ideal physiques from the "former fat kid" camp usually have to accept a feeling of perpetual hunger as a part of life. I can comfortably put away 3500kcal of, say, chicken breast and steel cut oatmeal within about eight hours.

      [–]mamaknulare 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      180 cm and 80 kgs here. No idea about fat % but I have veins from hands to shoulders and a six pack. Always get compliments for my body, the girl I was with two weeks ago told me I had the 'dream body'. What's funny is I only do calisthenics and bjj and I saw some bullshit thread here a while ago saying that calisthenics is ''beta''.

      [–]redlurker9 3 points4 points  (3 children)

      I personally disagree. Of course being low fat is an asset, and nobody wants to be a fat fuck. But I'm currently bulking, I'm at around 21%bf, my lifts have dramatically increased in the past months and I feel way better than when I was 15% after keto. I'm stronger, I feel manlier, people respect me more and are more submissive around me (literally getting out of my way when I walk). Yes, ultimately I want these chisel features. But not before I can bench 2 times my weight.

      [–]whatsariho 15 points16 points  (12 children)

      Fuck. You must be a 15 year old child.

      How the fuck is Statham above 200lbs :D. He is about 5'8'' tall. He is like 175lbs MAX.

      Also when you're a natural and don't have top tier genetics you look small as fuck at 175lbs 10% when you're not short as fuck. BTW most of those guys in the bb forum pics are most probably using something.

      This is some grade A bullshit that the media has fed you that all women gravitate towards the 175lbs 10% bf skinny faggot. If you don't have a gut hanging over your belt and look relatively decent and have confidence then most women don't give a shit about bf %. Or do you think women run around with calipers and measure every potential mate they see?

      In summation you probably don't know shit about lifting or anything at all for that matter if you're this uninformed about this topic.

      [–]celincelin 32 points33 points  (7 children)

      Or do you think women run around with calipers and measure every potential mate they see?

      Yes. Those calipers are called eyes. Measuring every potential mate is literally the whole point of mating.

      [–]Jason-Genova 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Wasn't Frank Zane like 200ish at 10%?

      [–]Senior EndorsedMattyAnon 4 points5 points  (4 children)

      Great post and totally on point.

      , rather than through spot reduction, although some deposits deplete faster depending on your genetics.

      Yes, spot reduction is utterly debunked and it's exactly as OP says. It was a manufactured myth, perpetuated by people's need to believe.

      It's no secret that the vast majority of male actors, models and sex symbols are all low bodyfat. Even the ones that are above 200lbs (Statham) have chiselled faces and low bodyfat

      Exactly. Attractive male actors are now startlingly low BF.

      Many guys tend to put fat on their faces as they bulk,

      Got a babyface? Cut down the BF!

      Also - still freaking lift. It helps with BF reduction, and you want some muscles to go with that cut physique.

      But how do I get low BF, Matty?

      Lift, cardio (3 x 20 minutes at high intensity per week), 500 calorie deficit under your baseline, weigh yourself weekly to check progress, you'll lose 2 lb per week.

      It's that simple. It's hard. It's very hard. But it is simple.

      [–]bobbobbitybob 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Remember to keep the numbers healthy.

      I have been competition-ready shredded and I've had a lot of problems with libido and joint pain (main reason = low %bf). Never mind the loss of strength that can get on your ego easily.

      It's always good to look at yourself and decide if you want to build parts of your body up or shred the fat. Don't focus on the numbers, especially with %bf.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      It’s very motivating to see pics of face gains on guys who weren’t particularly fat to begin with. Every little bit of bf% lost makes a difference.

      Usually face gain pics involve a heavily obese ‘before’ image, but a lot of guys are probably like me and are neither fat nor cut, guess that’s what happens when you lift but don’t give a fuck about what you eat. Excited to see what happens to me as I just started a serious cut yesterday.

      [–]arthurabyssal 4 points5 points  (11 children)

      Okay lets clear something up Right Now. Eating loads of food and whatever you see will not make you build muscle faster. There is this mentality that you have to be stuffed all the time to "bulk" - whatever that means. All that will do is spike insulin throughout the day and cripple what really causes growth: growth hormone and testosterone levels. It is true that you have to have amino acids in the blood but how much do you think sugars and excess insulin in the blood help muscle growth and hormone optimisation?

      Muscle is protein, not carbohydrate. Don't spew that you need loads of carbs to gain muscle, the majority of golden-era bodybuilders watched their carbs, such as Ric Drasin, Frank Zane and Vince Gironda. Yes muscle weighs a lot but harldy as much as people think. I started lifting as a skinny boy 7 months ago at 60kg and now I weigh 61 kg. However a lifeguard came up to me saying how different I looked and other people at the gym and friends are always asking how I "built so much muscle". Truth is, a huge component of 'muscle-growth' is capillary growth which supplies more blood to the muscle, although some growth is myofibrilliar growth. Still, how much do you think an extra inch around your arm will weigh? My arms are huge compared to 6 months ago but I don't weigh much more. I have kept very lean the whole time and whereas I could only deadlift 90kg max, I can now deadlift 120kg which is around twice my bodyweight. Chest is much bigger and stronger but it doesn't weigh much.

      Point is a vastly improved body shape with chisseled muscles and fibres showing on the shoulder etc does not mean many kilograms or pounds of extra weight. Eat well-sourced meat, liver (best natural overall supplement for endurance, energy, protein and acne), eggs, butter, monounsaturated oils and avocados and vegetables. Anything else is essentially sugar and should be thought about carefully. Don't tell me about glycogen loading. The body makes more than enough glycogen. Weightlifting a few times a week does not deplete glycogen stores fully, marathon running does, and even top marathon runners are adapting their bodies to fat-burning with high fat low carb diets. The body makes its own glycogen. The whole idea of bulking is silly bananas. It is not an excuse to eat junk and bloat-up on carbohydrates and make your health suffer. Stop obsessing over calories they mean less than you think when you take into account people's different microbiomes and insulin resistance. For example, cutting on a high-carbs diet causes high insulin levels meaning you are more likely to atrophy (burn muscle instead of fat). Calories do not mean everything. Eat when you are hungry and skip breakfast. A carb-based diet makes you always hungry whereas a healthy fats and protein diet regulates hunger properly.

      [–]Its_scottyhall 12 points13 points  (9 children)

      There is a LOT of misinformation and bad data in the above response.

      [–]EnzoGold 7 points8 points  (6 children)

      Please point it out and prove it wrong. We cannot accept your statement as the truth without proof.

      [–]Redagogue 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Growing up, I was a fat kid that got no attention from the ladies. Eventually I manned up and took responsibility and lost the weight. Life got way better, way more confidence, more attention, etc. However, I went from fat to skinny fat as a result of just dieting with no exercise. I was petrified of becoming fat again after experiencing how much better being normal was. Later on, people started mentioning off-hand that I was skinny. Sometimes I would get light headed and easily tired. As a man in his 20's in his supposed physical prime years, I knew it would only get worse. I looked in the mirror and saw myself as I was: out of shape, low muscle, unhealthy. So, I manned up and took responsibility and went to the gym. Not wanting to get fat, I counted calories and macros to do just enough to get stronger and by proxy gain muscle. I did that for about a year, and stopped making progress after a few months. I would get injured, drop the weight to recover, get back to previous level, and get sick/injured/miss workouts. I was dedicated, didn't give up, pushed myself, studied proper form, etc. Being stuck with a sub 250lb squat and other subpar lifts after a year of gym work, I knew something more than bad luck was wrong here. I'm not a special snowflake. So, I manned up and recently took responsibility and started eating more.

      In the last few months, I've blown through PR's almost every workout. Life is better, and now I'm reaching my goals at a resonable rate. My point is that fat is easily lost and gained. Unless you're in your teens and early twenties, building muscle is going to be a battle. Don't fuck around, like I did, with "slow bulking" or "lean gains" for fear of fat. I'll be clear here, as idiots with poor reading comprehension like to make straw men: I'm saying don't eat like a pig and dirty bulk. However, the vast majority of the people on this sub need to realize that once you have a decent foundation of strength and muscle, cutting is much much easier. Past the first bit of training, you will have to make a choice between losing fat and gaining muscle. Trying to do both at the same time is going to take orders of magnitude longer than standard bulk/cut cycles.

      I have been fat, I have been skinny, and now more muscled. At the end of the day, if you have the discipline to change your body composition and know you can do it, then being 6-8% more fat for a while to optimize muscle growth won't even bother you.

      [–]Nihev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Your face is not puffy at 17% bf

      [–]Ninokun 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Women prefer Abs much more then Big Arms or Big Legs.

      Men always say never skip Leg day but Women actually give Zero, zilch,0,de nada shit about that at all!!!

      .

      Have low enough bodyfat so u have abs and defined Jaw and Cheekbones, Use the Pull down lat machine so u have kind of a broader Frame.

      [–][deleted]  (9 children)

      [removed]

      [–]coco5440 15 points16 points  (0 children)

      Eat decent real food and exercise. You can't buy a healthy body at the Vitamin Store.

      [–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (3 children)

      Want to have a healthy face that glows

      Okay, but you will still have a double chin if you don't control your bodyfat percentage. But enjoy the glowing double chin. ;)

      [–]RamblingBanana 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      He stating that your face will become more defined as you lose body fat and therefore decrease the amount of fat on your face. How in the world is that bro science?

      [–]Retiredmagician 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      "Having low% bodyfat makes your face look thinner"

      "Nah that's fucking bro science man"

      ummm you should be taking care of your face regardless, but having silky smooth and clear skin when you're 250lbs and obese will only make you look like a hard boiled egg.

      [–]3LiveAFTSOV 5 points6 points  (60 children)

      warriors dont care about being pretty, they care about murdering their enemies, usually by being bigger and stronger

      if you're 150 lb and 18-20% lb, and you cut to 10-12% bf to get that "chisled jaw" look, you will also weigh 135 lb, look like a scrawny kid, and intimidate no one. So much for "warrior ethos."

      Cut after you've reached milestones. 165, 185, etc.

      Also, lean bulking will result in a steady growth of muscle, without fat, slowly, therefore BF% lowers naturally

      [–]Senior Endorsed Contributormax_peenor 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      warriors dont care about being pretty

      I find it funny that people cite UFC as a reason why you are wrong. They are not warriors. Warriors kill people. Their fights last seconds and someone is bleeding out and dying when it is over. Spend some time with special forces guys. Most of them (but not all) keep some extra body fat on them because it improves survivability.

      As for the guys talking about height. The two baddest motherfuckers I ever knew were under 5'8". One was a combatives instructor for the Rangers and he would destroy any of you faggots. The other was a half-japanase, half-mick marine that could throw a man twice his weight across a room (yes, I witnessed this). Both were heavy into fitness and both weren't 5% bf scrawny dogs.

      [–]Jo0wZ 12 points13 points  (33 children)

      I'm 198lb and 18% bf, but only 5'6. I look like a fucking russian bear wrestler. I've been on a test cycle for the last 3 months. I've never had this much attention when 13% bf. Women can smell the the testosterone. The difference with being a pretty face chad is that, yes, women throw themselves at him but as a swole bear you can just walk up to woman, and take her without much struggle.

      [–]3LiveAFTSOV 7 points8 points  (7 children)

      sometimes i feel lucky for you shorter guys - can you imagine being 7 foot tall, 220 lb of muscle, and STILL looking skinny as shit? look at Kevin durant lol.

      Also, im sure the test raised your muscle mass, that could be it too.

      anyways good luck with your cycles

      [–]banjew 6 points7 points  (1 child)

      sometimes i feel lucky for you shorter guys

      We look great on camera yes.

      In real life...invisible. Like a 40yo divorcee.

      [–]Jo0wZ 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      That's because you have a holocaust body :)

      [–]coco5440 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      I'm sure Mr. Durant is doing just fine with the ladies.

      [–]1mental_models 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      6'9 basketball player build here.

      I can confirm that there are some aesthetic differences as you get into the 'too-tall' range. A little higher bodyfat % (talking vs. being shredded, not talking fat) is probably better. Shoulders, lats, posture are very important. Core strength is very important (imagine these 5'7" russian bear ninjas angrily moving around your rib level at a club).

      I'm sure Durant is doing fine lol.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [removed]

        [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

        what country do you live in?

        [–]Andgelyo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Disagree, to truly slay you have to have an athletic and lean look. That way, you look approachable but also look strong enough to fight off other people. Fuck that jacked up, so swole that I can even externally rotate my shoulder to wipe my own ass look. Also fuck that skinny, twinky, Iittle boy look. The best of both worlds is the answer. I’d rather look like a warrior who is quick and powerful.

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        lol 6"2 240 lb Russian checkin in...

        i can confirm above

        [–]Mr_Jackabin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Fucking props for being honest about the test. Test usage doesn't bother me, I'm natural myself. What fucking bothers me is liars, who can misguide newcomers in to thinking an unnatural physique is natural. Kudos to you

        [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (5 children)

        but as a swole bear you can just walk up to woman, and take her without much struggle.

        And then catch an abduction charge?

        [–]banjew 11 points12 points  (3 children)

        And then catch an abduction charge?

        Only of you are ugly.

        1) Be attractive

        2) Don't be unattractive.

        [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (2 children)

        Girls will always prefer the 6'3 skinny model guy than your manlet ass.

        [–]Jo0wZ 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        She won't because of the implication

        [–][deleted]  (18 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]3LiveAFTSOV 1 point2 points  (16 children)

          You mean these skinny guys? 1 2 3 4 5

          Totally not scrawny looking.

          This is what 170 looks like - 1

          Chiseled, and not a scrawny fuck

          Abs matter when you weigh 175, not 145

          Also running doesnt build your legs any more than a good squat would

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (12 children)

          Good one, use 3 of your examples for skinny guys from weigh ins, then your 170 guy from inside the cage. That 170 dude also happens to be Sage Northcutt, a young fighter renowned for having an incredibly aesthetic physique. One of your examples is Conor at 145, who is renowned for looking like a crackhead.

          Max Holloway (your last example) is 5ft 11 and Featherweight champion. No shit he's gonna be a lanky motherfucker, he still kicks the fuck out of all contenders.

          Finally, what's wrong with Cody Garbrandt and Mike Easton?? Both look pretty good to me, just not big guys. Easton's waist is a bit thick, and Cody's tats are fucking awful, but apart from that they look great.

          [–]3LiveAFTSOV 0 points1 point  (11 children)

          It doesnr matter where rhe hell they are weighed, only their look at a ceetain weight lol

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (10 children)

          Are you suggesting there's no difference in weight between a fighter stepping onto the scales, and that same fighter stepping into the octagon the next day?

          [–]3LiveAFTSOV 0 points1 point  (9 children)

          I'm saying that they will look different at different weights.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

          What do you mean? All the guys in the lighter weight classes look skinny, and all the guys above them look fuller? Because that's not true.

          [–]3LiveAFTSOV 0 points1 point  (6 children)

          nigga, your favorite fighter would look different at 135 compared to 175 ok fuck

          [–]LeftHookTKD 0 points1 point  (5 children)

          Your examples are shit because you compared pictures at weigh ins to pictures in the octagon. Fighters cut water weight to make weight. After the weigh ins they gain all the weight back and look fuller.

          Also sage northcutt is on roids

          [–]Jo0wZ 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Those tingles won't stay for long when your 150lbs ass gets decked by a fat dude.

          [–]Rollo_Mayhem3 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          I have to agree. The primary reason I am in the gym is for myself, to be bigger and stronger than the next guy. I'll say this, the 4 years I lifted in college, going from roughly 170 to 190 (10% or less bf) boasted my confidence through the roof and get this, even when I stopped lifting in graduate school and later when working..i still felt the same about my body, even though I am sure my strength dropped and I gained weight. Guess what? IT was mostly in my own head where I needed the most gains.

          I also agree it is best to cut down once you reach your weight goal. You can't be worrying about calories when you are trying to bulk, you just need to eat as much as you gain to put on the weight. Unless your really overweight and need to lose 20lbs, cutting 5lbs should not be that problematic.

          For example, my personal goal is 200, I've never hit 200 lean. So I am lifting to hit 200 and then I'll cut back 192-195 where ever 10-11% would place me.

          [–]LeftHookTKD 0 points1 point  (3 children)

          you will also weigh 135 lb, look like a scrawny kid

          A friend of mine is like 145 lb at 5'9 at looks huge for his size. If you have the muscle you're not going to look that scrawny.

          [–]3LiveAFTSOV 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          So he looks like the guys in my pictures lol?

          [–]LeftHookTKD 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          No he doesn't look skinny at all. He looks like he's 160-170 despite being lower. Muscle makes you look bigger than fat.

          [–][deleted]  (1 child)

          [removed]

          [–]Ridicatlthrowaway 1 point2 points  (3 children)

          Lol your first sentence is about not lifting for women then goes into full fucking article about lifting to satisfy women.

          [–]mangoat12 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          Yeah it's so ironic. Who gives a shit what retarded women think

          [–]Snowbattt 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          It kinda depends though. I used to weigh 65 kilo for 1m93 height... I had 10% bodyfat and I looked like shit. You do need some bulk on your frame for muscles to show up.

          [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

          65kg at that height is pretty much holocaust survivor mode.

          [–]Snowbattt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Exactly. I started lifting weights not because I wanted to become a big bulky beast, but because I was fucking sick of hating the image I saw in the mirror. I'm 20 kilo's heavier now. A little more body fat (14% which is still fairly OK) but much more muscular. In fact, I rock climb as well and some of my fellow climbers, who are on the skinny side but are still wiry and ripped, say that I'm actually rather muscular for what you'd expect from a climber. I do lift weights though.

          And since I also decided to pick up martial arts again, being more muscular also allows me to be able to take more of a bruising :-)

          Gaining muscle was one of the best decisions I took. My confidence skyrocketed. And we all know the importance of confidence. You don't need to become a big bodybuilding type (unless that's what you want), but just having some muscle mass, some strength and reasonable fat levels does wonders with how you feel in your own pelt.

          [–]Djdonald 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          There’s no one path for everybody. Everyone is different. Some people would respond well to bulking first, some to cutting. I’d rather have a high body fat than look like a DYEL weeb who forgets to eat because I’m killing noobs in league of legends all day.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Any tips on how to cut down bodyfat? I'd say I'm naturally skinny and have pretty low BF but my face is not chiseled as I'd like it to be. Could this simply be due to low T? I've been trying to naturally increase it for a few months now by eating clean, lifting, good sleep, vit D, etc but I haven't noticed a huge difference.

          [–]majorketone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Check this site out Just eat under the number it gives you and its impossible not to lose weight. Supplement cardio if you want to be able to eat more.

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Is there any guide on how to do this? Lower body fat while making sure the face doesn't get fatter while bulking?

          [–]gstarguru 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          Is 5 x 5 strong lifts good for this?

          [–]LeftHookTKD 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          Good for what? Are you a new lifter?

          [–]zenguyva 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Your strategy depends on where you're starting from. First question is how much of your weight is fat and how much is muscle. If you are active and or do jobs that require strength and lifting then you may have lost of muscle. Cutting may be your best bet. If you're new don't have much muscle and need to lose wt you may as well begin with cutting. After all, you're not going to be lifting heavy for awhile and you can cut and spend some time getting your form right so you're ready when you are able to lift heavy.

          Also, there is nothing wrong with cycling between building and cutting phases, lots of pros do that.

          There is not and never will be a "right answer" it's just about finding the strategy that works for you, and will keep you doing this for the long run. It's not a 50 yard dash it's a marathon. Do it for life.

          [–]wayneinthegame 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          I'm still fat at 5'11" 240lbs (down from 360 last year), lifting heavy for hour once per week with a trainer.

          Eating 300 cal deficit, but I should be doing more cardio than lifting at this point? Goal is to be at 200lbs by march.

          (Thanks for the post, btw. Can't stop here at normal fat dude attracting post wall roasties. College chicks or bust baby.)

          [–]Tosma00 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          You should lift 3 to 4 times a week. You absolutely don't need a trainer. Nice progress. Look at leangains or IIFYM.

          [–]frogNews 0 points1 point  (2 children)

          What's the best way to burn body fat? Does cardio like jogging work, and for how much per day?

          I do jogging for 30min every other day. At 5'10" 177lb, not sure if I'm at a good range for bmi.

          [–]Tosma00 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Lifting weights lowers body fat. high intensity cardio too. 177lb is good if you have an average to above average frame. Check itnermittent fasting or iifym.

          [–]Rss111 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Came here to say that Leangains (research that) saved my life

          [–]Matematik150 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          The problem is that the leaner you get the weaker you get. When your bench falls for 100lbs trust me you will feel like shit and wont notice the mires you are getting

          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          I love the 10% at 175 and 17-18% at 210. Those are very impressive stats, actually.

          My point is that you'd have to be an advanced lifter to be legitimately 10%bf at 175lbs. Most who think they're that lean are actually closer to 14 or 15. Just because you can see your six pack doesn't mean you're 10%.

          And 17% at 210? I'm 6'1" with super broad shoulders and a barrel chest. I've been lifting seriously for 5 years and at 210lbs I'm closer to 25%bf.

          At 175lbs I'd be close to 10% but I'm definitely above average in lifting, height and genetics.

          [–]Tosma00 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          No offense but those stats are absolute shit. Do something. Even more if you claim to have a big frame. 6'1 200-210 10-12% 300+ bench 400+ squat is easy as fuck in 5 years.

          [–]BigArmLife 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          No one understands our pain

          [–]strikethrough123 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          When I was skinny as fuck (110-120) my bodyfat was naturally low. If you're skinny as fuck, don't let this post make you think that you're in the clear because your bodyfat is low.

          [–]EtMementoMori 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Don't cut until you bulk. Don't cut if you are skinny as hell and has no muscle. Again, DO NOT CUT if you have no muscles. If you have 10% body fat and 20% of muscle, you do not look Aesthetic. If you want to look aesthetically while not eating like a crazy to bulk, do lean-bulking and eat clean, that's a slow-but-sure way to go.

          [–]Goatse-s_Ring 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Great post, OP, thanks for the info.

          I don't think the "building power" flair is correct though? The mods made a message about it ages ago, and it sounded more like political/social power for the trp ethos.

          [–]berryfarmer 0 points1 point  (5 children)

          also to get rid of the face puffiness keep your thyroid in check, see / r / iodide and no there's not enough in your salt or food, also need cofactors

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