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Building PowerHow to get out of a rut using The Jordan Peterson 'Positive FeedBack' concept. Sometimes we sabotage ourselves into bad habits through small seemingly insignificant actions with FUCKING DISASTROUS repercussions. Here is the way out. (self.TheRedPill)

submitted by 2Joeycrackem

[removed]

[–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 53 points54 points  (5 children)

I was sure this was going to be another regurgitation of a book I would end up reading amyways, but this was well presented and thought out. Thanks for this.

[–]2Joeycrackem[S] 19 points20 points  (4 children)

No worries, I like to put my own spin on things.

[–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 7 points8 points  (3 children)

So I reflected on your ideas here for a bit.

I can identify a three positive feedback loops that I've left behind (to different degrees):

  1. Lying to myself For most of my life I lied to myself. I grew up in a manipulative household. I learned that the way to master surroundings is to manipulate. As a result, I also was rarely honest with myself. And being honest with myself meant feeling the pain of reality as it was, rather than how I liked it to be. Avoidance of truth with myself was a positive feedback loop and it stopped during one relationship where my partner asked me to cut that out in a couple of situation (eventually this led to an honesty with myself to realize that she was really bad for me overall).

  2. escapin into games Using computer games as a way to deal with negative emotions. Computer games were my escape. I also enjoyed them by themselves. However, rather than dealing with the things that bothered me, it allowed me to hide from the things that bothered me. I got out of this through a long path and it sometimes still lurks in the corner sometimes. When I feel overly emotional, I call a friend or I start writing and actually figure out what is bothering me so that I can decide what to do about it, if necessary.

  3. Avoiding intimacy with girls. I've always been fairly succesful with getting girls, but it was more madness than method and that includes the mindstate of the girls I was dating. However, at some point it always turned sour and in comparable ways and a particularly nasty breakup caused me to withdraw from girls completely for a while. It got into a similar loop with me experiencing anxiety and uncertainty and withdrawing from that. Recently I started making an effort of being outcome independant but just daring to push my own anxiety (I can tell it was rather mild for girls and that I could push much much more). I'm getting more comfortable taking active roles with girls, but I still have some way to go, which is odd because this used to be easy. Just being patiently improving.

Would recommend to anyone to sit down and evaluate what feedback loops you might have.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

it always turned sour and in comparable ways and a particularly nasty breakup caused me to withdraw from girls completely for a while.

In a novel of his Dostoevsky says something to the tune of "Every human relation ends on a note of lowliness". That's the "ground". Egos see other egos as competition. If then they see the other ego, also, as useful, they may "feel in love" or "become friends". But when the usefulness disappears, the competition makes its apparition back on their mind's stage.

And then they have that "Why did I open myself to this... enemy" feeling feeding their pride and vanity, and you get to see their sourer, maybe most real, self. Which of course drives you nuts, insofar as you aren't like them and don't know the rule — taking their behaviour as an unpleasant luckless exception (so you feel targeted by chance, while it's what everybody has to confront).

[–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 3 points4 points  (1 child)

That's fascinating. Do you remember which novel that was? If you do it's going on my reading list. Going through a lot of russian novels anyways.

[–]ldamien65 11 points12 points  (1 child)

The feedback loop from hell was also mentioned in Mark Manson's The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. That too is a great read in my opinion.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's Buddhism, Taoism, Zen, in pop-culture form. Useful for sure.

[–]SlySoothSayer 13 points14 points  (9 children)

I actually orders 12 rules for life yesterday, I’m eagerly arriving it’s arrival

[–]SabbathNur 1 points1 points [recovered]

It's not a bad self-help book, but if you've seen his lectures you won't learn that much more. If you wanna support the guy, go ahead and buy his book, but don't expect it to be anymore life-changing than his already present (and free) lectures.

[–]SlySoothSayer 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I’ve seen his lectures, I like his comparisons to the Bible as well as his use of archetypes. The guy has a lot of facts and random knowledge that he uses to keep the topic at hand interesting.

[–]reecewagner -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

For an intelligent man who obviously has a concrete understanding of science and evolutionary biology, I'm perplexed as to why he feels the need to weave the Bible into his topics. It's not necessary.

[–]thetompain -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Because the bible is a collection of hero myths that Western civilization was built on. It is a pretty important document.

[–]2Joeycrackem[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's awesome, I'm only on rule 3 Atm.

[–]needz -1 points0 points  (2 children)

I started it but stopped reading after the second rule. He is far too long-winded for my liking. Too much fluff, not enough food for thought or actionable advice. If I wanted a leisurely read I'd pick up some fiction.

[–]fromthecrypt8 5 points6 points  (1 child)

I agree somewhat. Alot of people here seem to liken JBP to God, but he sure does take too long to explain fairly simple concepts. It’s like a great, long movie that could be cut by a half hour and be even better.

[–]RealMcGonzo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The man does like to hear himself talk. I too wish for a Reader's Digest version of his lectures.

[–]ComfortableBowl 5 points6 points  (0 children)

“When the medication causes the disease, a positive feedback loop has been established”.

Same goes with gaming introverts. They want to have fun but nobody accepts them due to poor social skills and uninteresting lives -> they decide to play video games that day -> they feel the satisfaction of accomplishment and belonging (which also works for multiplayer AND some single player games) -> they keep having uninteresting hobbies, poor social skills and boring lives -> nobody invites them to parties -> they end up playing video games.

Ad infinitum.

Only way to break out is to decide to moderate your habit while you're increasing your social aptitude and the diversity of shit you're doing to become interesting enough that are worthy of talking about. In the headache example, drinking more isn't the only thing that cures the headache but it's the only familiar thing that does.

Change the variables

There's also another way to describe the step. The iterations have to generate small amounts of stress. You wouldn't go from someone living in your house to someone approaching 10 chicks a day to ask them out. Start by saying "hello" to one-two at a day. I assure you people who lived in their home will even have problem doing that.

The natural reaction to this is that you'll feel that this progress is so small there's no reason to feel worthy of calling it an "improvement" or/and you'll discourage yourself by saying that you have a very long way to go.

Which is why one of the rules in the book is "don't compare yourself with others, compare yourself with how you were yesterday". You're far from being at the top of the "being chill while talking with unknown girls" hierarchy, but you still made progress worthy of praise. You're slightly higher and closer towards your goals, and that's better than your previous levels of success.

See? I just scripted a critical move as a contingency to outmaneuver my predicted negative thinking that will come from successfully saying "hi" to a couple of girls ("well, it's just a couple big fucking deal dude" -> "it's a couple more than yesterday"). It's amazing how an "all-or-nothing" belief that only the top of the top of the dogs deserve praise and everyone else is trash can manifest into negative habits. I've even met people who call "trash" someone who lost a match against the world champion of a game. You can capture deep belief systems from little shit like that.

[–]Kingoffistycuffs 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I really enjoy the idea of having a few handwritten rules when it comes to feedback loops. I’ve got a couple that I’d like to start chipping away at now that I’m slowly becoming more stable. Stability really is the deciding factor when it comes to making changes.

[–]2Joeycrackem[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's great, especially when the responses become automatic.

[–]Senior Endorsed ContributorRian_Stone 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Sounds like redpilling ones self...

Also, best not to pretend you're teaching, you're processing your own shit. Would read a lot better with a self reflective voice than a teaching one Imo.

[–]1mental_models 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the thread starter made a nice post.

Step1 = insight. 100% agree

Step2= break the loop. Yes.

Step3= mindfulness, and safeguards in place to remain rational in 'hot states'. OK that works.

Step4= proactive construction of positive feedback loops that advance you along your path.

[–]Inuyashaswrath 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Damn, I saved this post this morning to read it when I had the time and it was deleted before I ever got to read it. Is there any other site or video where this information is available?

[–]Frietjeman 7 points8 points  (5 children)

When does JBP encourage gradually changing behaviour? As far as I know, he doesn’t. He tells you to “stop doing the things you know you shouldn’t do and start doing the things you know you should do”. Now, he doesn’t tell you to do all at once, but for every individual item I’m not sure how effective the slow-but-steady approach is.

It’s an approach that is often encouraged in self improvement circles, although rarely does it come with any evidence as to be the most useful one. And I’m absolutely not convinced that it’s helpful to tell alcoholics “well, your inability to regulate alcohol intake is ruining your life but if you just try to regulate a little, it’s all gonna be fine”. There’s no evidence that this approach works better than the cold turkey approach (if there is please let me know).

I like the switch approach. I use it to cut down on my sugar intake. My personal rule is to drink a cup of water when I crave something sweet. Usually the desire goes away and the chance of all-out binging is significantly smaller.

[–]2Joeycrackem[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This isn't a summary of JBP's work. I am only using the idea of 'Positive Feedback Loops' mentioned in his 12 rules book as inspiration for the post. The rest of the post besides the quotes is my content.

In regards to gradual shifts, I think most self-improvement circles advocate the opposite. Think of Grant Cardone's '10x Rule', or Think and Grow Rich's 'burning desire', even Anthony Robbins "Massive action.

For most people drastic changes are not sustainable, just look at all the new year resolutioners and their failed accomplishments. Gradual shifts works abiding the person is consistent with the change.

[–]Endorsed Contributorsadomasochrist 2 points3 points  (1 child)

You may want to check into his self authoring program. It's self application of Toyota's kiezen self change program.

He is a proponent of incremental change and speaks of this as a clinician too.

[–]TheBattleshipYamato 2 points3 points  (0 children)

“well, your inability to regulate alcohol intake is ruining your life but if you just try to regulate a little, it’s all gonna be fine”. There’s no evidence that this approach works better than the cold turkey approach

bad example, heavy alcoholics can't go cold turkey.

i'd say slow and steady doesn't work (or isn't the best way) when eliminating negative behaviors, but it's a lot more efficient when it comes to introducing positive behaviors. if someone's objective is to say, read more, you can't expect them to jump straight into reading a book a day if they haven't seriously read anything for a decade.

[–]1mental_models 0 points1 point  (0 children)

you fumbled pretty much your whole post when you picked a horrible example

However, I do think that a cold-turkey approach is often better than an incremental approach. You still need a process involving mindfulness/awareness... you still need a process involving post-mortem analysis... More difficult problems will not be instantaneous light-switch off problems, but some are better eliminated by stopping now.

[–]evolveto 3 points4 points  (7 children)

The biggest thing, I am struggling right now is, working in my job. I literally do not complete the task and always procrastinate things to later day, resulting in bad performance. I know, I am in a big rut right now and have to get out somehow to be better at job.

Can you suggest some scripts for the critical moves, i can make to be fully aware and give 8 hour day consciously to my job ?

[–]SylarTheWolf 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I had the same problem.. Lack of concentration, and always procrastinating. I found the pomodoro technique really helpful, as it let's my brain focus for a while and then go back to relaxed mode. I guess the script would be pretty easy: Think of a task you have to do. Set up a timer for 25 minutes. Focus. Rest 10 minutes (Go get a coffee, talk to someone, or just come to reddit and stretch).

It really works for getting some more work done. At least it did for me.

[–]Captain_Sorbo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you guys do before work?

[–]DonSwagger1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've been using this Pomodoro android app at work and it definitely helps with concerntration:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apps.adrcotfas.goodtime

[–]blackberrydoughnuts 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm in the same situation. One thing that helps me is to step away and meditate for 15 minutes. When I get back I'm much more focused.

[–]linam97 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Few things I would recommend:

  • You're burned out. Take some time off to go on vacation or work on your hobbies.
  • When you go back, take a notepad and write 1 thing to do that day that will make it a success. Start small. It can be writing the introduction to a paper, instead of the whole 5 page paper.
  • Pomodoro (turn off your phone during the focus time)
  • Meditate 10 minutes everday
  • Go easy on yourself, you'll improve over time. Just accepting this will ease some anxiety.

I was in a rut like this and it's depressing negative feedback loop. Reward yourself everyday for being productive to set up a positive feedback loop.

[–]The_Noble_Lie 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Don't work 8 hours. Tell yourself youll goof off for x hours and focus for the rest.

Think about the future if/when youre fired. Will be you be stressed? Will you care? Will you be able to find another job? Shits real, brotha.

Be safe, be pseudo dedicated (if you legit dont care), be motivated by the harsh reality of life

Of course, it's sad you dont want to do your job like most others. Ideally, this wouldnt even be an issuen. So longer term, see if you can find a job worth getting paid for.

[–]evolveto 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The pay and industry is good, but my focus and heart lies somewhere in film making, i have to carve my path in that direction.

[–]2Joeycrackem[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Watch out for those cheeky feedback loops!

[–]politburobaddies 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For similar concepts, I'd recommend Darren Hardy's "The Compound Effect".

[–]DaBrokenMeta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Literally as I wake up and dedicate myself to changing a few bad habits to further my emersion into TRP, this post pops up on the front page

Destiny has my number

Actionable/scripted moves was my missing component. Thanks for this post dude

[–]Guipouet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Great post!

I'm kinda going through this by instinct and you really put words on my actions, I appreciate that a lot.

I would recommend, for those who like writing, to start journaling extensively. I know this has helped me visualize the cycle(s) I experiment and therefore putting clear actions and defining steps to break those is far more easier to me.

If you work on a computer, take 5 to 30 minutes to express where you are today, where you want to go and the actions you took to get there. I do this around noon before lunch, and it keeps me in my tracks.

Looking forward to read from you again.

[–]rijeka1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Got this book but I haven't read it yet. I should.

[–]PM_ME_UR_NIPS_GURL 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You don't know how badly I needed this. Thank you.

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro -1 points0 points  (4 children)

In my opinion every single addict trying “feedback loops” is going to fail, but what do I know.

[–]Garathon -1 points0 points  (3 children)

Yeah, I'm sure JBP has absolutely zero backing this stuff up. Just pulling it out of his ass.

/s

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro 0 points1 point  (2 children)

If this “wishing on a star” stuff works it means he wasn’t an addict in the first place

[–]Garathon 0 points1 point  (1 child)

So how do addicts get out of their addictions in your experience?

[–]Endorsed Contributorex_addict_bro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Meetings and therapy

[–]LiftBodyUpThenDown -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Your post is riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes and I haven’t the time to check, but I think that is a common misquote of Einstein.

However, your post was helpful nonetheless. I especially like relying on a structured method of dealing with negative habits. Conscientiousness at its finest.

[–]rijeka1 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I got this book. Dint read, time to.

[–]daddy_edgelord 1 points1 points [recovered]

If TRP was a religion, Jordan Peterson would be the pope

(Or the dalai lama, or whatever, you get the point)

[–]Gervant_of_Lyria 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Actually, most Endorsed Contributors and those users who were here from the beginning, before this subreddit went to shit, know that Peterson is a tradcon, who should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. But those are adult men, not JP cultist boys who need an internet dad to tell them to clean their rooms.

[–]scamper_22 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The only thing sadder than people who worship JP are people who hate on him.

You want to hate on someone who tells people to make something of their life and questions some of the societal choices we've made in the west?

Heck, even if all he says is to clean your room, that's a message worth hearing that apparently enough people haven't heard.

[–]4pointdeer 2 points3 points  (1 child)

A person that cleans their room because of an internet dad is preferable to a person that doesn't clean their room.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"Internet dad": this catches JP's importance and the mission he's taken on, stealing a lot of time and resources from his former main mission (deep-psych psychologist and philosopher: if you wanna know that side of his, find the pdf of his Maps of Meaning that he himself has made available free).

[–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Nah, more of a martin luther. A heretic in chaotic times.